Season 2

[junienmomo]

I'll close out my thoughts on season 2 with one of my favorite scenes - Rory and Luke when Luke returns from fishing in Help Wanted.

Somehow it's a really perfect moment. Wonderful understated acting by both parties, sensitively directed, and the lighting was just wonderful. There was a real sense that these two people were alone in the unpopular opinion that Jess was not at fault this time. 

No out of character dialog, very little dialog from these two at all, but they said exactly what was needed. 

On the icky nitpicky side, if Luke had been gone a couple or few days (I don't think it was clear), I'm not sure I'd want to eat the donut Rory had. 

A snapshot from the scene. I may have to go write a oneshot fanfic about their conversation post-episode.

[elang4]

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

I'll close out my thoughts on season 2 with one of my favorite scenes - Rory and Luke when Luke returns from fishing in Help Wanted.

Somehow it's a really perfect moment. Wonderful understated acting by both parties, sensitively directed, and the lighting was just wonderful. There was a real sense that these two people were alone in the unpopular opinion that Jess was not at fault this time. 

No out of character dialog, very little dialog from these two at all, but they said exactly what was needed. 

On the icky nitpicky side, if Luke had been gone a couple or few days (I don't think it was clear), I'm not sure I'd want to eat the donut Rory had. 

A snapshot from the scene. I may have to go write a oneshot fanfic about their conversation post-episode.

Totally agree! Loved that scene. Rory finally finding someone who agreed with her and Luke finding an ally. It was sweet. :)

[cantbeflapped]

For the rewatch this week....

Help Wanted - such a great Lorelai and Richard storyline...fun, sweet and meaningful.   I appreciated Rory's story here more than usual with Luke finally being the one person who understands that it wasn't Jess' fault.  

 

Lorelai's Graduation Day - wow....I tear up EVERY DARN TIME when they show Emily getting choked up and Lorelai changing her tassel.  LOVE Rory's trip into New York.

 

I Can't Get Started - Felt pretty sorry for Jess at the end...never remember feeling that way before.  I guess it's knowing that Rory jerks him around after that kiss.  

Small thing....I noticed when she was trying to make up to Luke, Lorelai said Rory was "in the hospital".  Personally, I use that terminology for folks who are admitted and staying overnight.  I might have said, "at the ER" or whatever.  Small thing, but just suggested continued overreaction on her part.  

 

Those Lazy, Hazy, Crazy Days - I get what they were going for with Rory changing into a dress but that blue, long sleeved hippie blouse she was already wearing looked so much prettier on her than the dress, IMO....just not a pretty dress or flattering to her.  In my world she was already "dressed up" before she changed but that's how TV is.  

 

I'd forgotten how long the Luke/Lorelai fight lasted....all summer....wow.  The way they made up was strange.  I guess I have trouble believing Lorelai would be that vulnerable with someone who was mad at her.  But again...tv.  

 

Scone mix really was a terrible gift.  Maybe have the cook bake them up first.  :). 

 

Haunted Leg -Jess' "dressing down" of Rory in the market....well done.  I feel mean for enjoying it....but boy, she really deserved it, IMO.  Also, I enjoyed the Kirk/Lorelai subplot.  It was nice to see her struggle with a normal, everyday problem like letting someone know you aren't interested, but without hurting them.  

Edited May 18, 2016 by cantbeflapped

[Smad]

4 hours ago, cantbeflapped said:

I'd forgotten how long the Luke/Lorelai fight lasted....all summer....wow.  The way they made up was strange.  I guess I have trouble believing Lorelai would be that vulnerable with someone who was mad at her.  But again...tv.  

But he wasn't mad at her. We've had the previous scene where Lorelai comes into the diner and she tries her bagel bit with him but he doesn't go for it at all. He was however completely calm and civil towards her and gave her what she ordered. He had only checked out of their friendship as it used to be, for IMO very understandable reasons. Lorelai unloading to him about Christopher was typical Lorelai, she needed to unload and Luke was usually the only person she felt comfortable with to be that vulnerable. Of course she completely ignored the status of their relationship at the time but that's just Lorelai for you.

[FictionLover]

13 hours ago, junienmomo said:

I'm guessing that 1-2-3 isn't deliberately carried on throughout the series. 

Reason one is that ASP and company had a tendency to forget details. Reason two us that I heard, but did not read in an interview, an idea that ASP would have preferred both GG to remain single. Reason three is that the numbers don't work for Lorelai, because we'd have to ignore both Alex and Jason, both of whom were around long enough to be considered serious. 

That is true; continuity wasn't their strong suit.  Bigger things like standing together under the chuppah  or Lorelai's dream would be for of a foreshadowing thing for them.

I never read that interview from ASP. SP always talks like their wedding should have happened. But maybe that was for the fans and not so much what ASP wanted.

[cantbeflapped]

Oops, just realized I included season 3 episodes in my comments above.  I reposted them in the season 3 thread.  

[hippielamb]

20 hours ago, Sweet Tee said:

Realistic?  As in a lot of fathers don't care about their kids?  If that's true, then it's really sad.  And yes, that is exactly what first soured me on Chris.  I cannot get behind a parent who has little to no interest in their child.  And honestly, as much as Lorelai adores and centers herself on Rory, I can't believe that his lack of interest in their daughter never bothered her.  He's a crappy father.  He just is.  And no one ever really calls him on it.  I can only assume that ASP doesn't see being a deadbeat dad as a problem.

Realistic in how an absentee parent would interact with their almost adult aged child. He treats Rory like a kid sister or as a younger peer. It makes sense to me because I have seen other absentee fathers have similar relationships with their kids. I like that this relationship is shown along with the single mom/kid dynamic. It's not something I see done on tv very often, although it's more common in real life.

19 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I have no idea how ASP feels about deadbeat dads. I just presume she didn't view Chris in that light.  I think it's one of those Gilmore Girls quirks.  They wanted to keep Chris around as a potential love interest for Lorelai, so there necessarily has to be a lot that Lorelai overlooks or otherwise justifies to herself in dealing with him.  Or maybe it's just residual guilt from running away.  I know they never got into it, but I seriously doubt Lorelai had any discussions with Chris before unilaterally deciding that she and his daughter should run away, and go live in a shed.      

Lorelai certainly doesn't treat him like a deadbeat. She comments on his lack of being in Rory's life but there is never any resentment or bitterness that I can see.

 

On to the episodes:

Help Wanted

I love the little snippets of Lorelai and Richard's relationship throughout the series so I particularly enjoy this episode. I always laugh at their scene in the office supply store and I like Richard seeing how capable Lorelai is at the office. Nice contrast from how he chastised her when he was in Stars Hollow. Lol at their "bagging the Swede" conversation.

 

10 hours ago, cantbeflapped said:

Lorelai's Graduation Day - wow....I tear up EVERY DARN TIME when they show Emily getting choked up and Lorelai changing her tassel.  LOVE Rory's trip into New York.

I always focus on Richard in that scene and how touched he looks at seeing Lorelai graduate. It's a great scene, not what the Gilmores would have wanted for Lorelai when she was younger but I love that they got to share that moment with her. I love Richard's scene with Lorelai later when he gives her the money and tells it to use it on something "fun". "Thank you, Daddy". Baby steps with them but I so enjoy watching it.

Love Christopher's gift basket but I always wonder what Sherry thought about him buying a pricey piece of jewellery for his ex. *handwave* Whatever, it's a sweet gesture.

Poor Rory having her heart and brain in conflict. She doesn't want to like Jess but she does anyway. I love her earlier scene with the grandparents when she acts like she's in a business meeting.

I Can't Get Started

Lorelai and Chris are so cute and flirty at Sookie's rehearsal dinner. I started watching this show in season 2 and their interactions made me love and root for them. Always get bummed by the ending though it's not entirely unexpected. Rory continues her pattern of kissing a boy and running away. ;)

[junienmomo]

6 hours ago, hippielamb said:

 

Love Christopher's gift basket but I always wonder what Sherry thought about him buying a pricey piece of jewellery for his ex. *handwave* Whatever, it's a sweet gesture.

I wonder what Rory thought when Christopher apparently did nothing whatsoever for her graduation from high school. Also why didn't we hear Lorelai taking him to task for it. 

It's little things like that reinforce the bad father image, but it didn't do any favors for Lorelai as a mother either.

[WhosThatGirl]

Lorelai does mention Christopher not being there to Richard and Emily, something about taking lots of pictures, but that's all. No mention of a gift he sends or anything, which is odd because remember that big fuss made over that dictionary he got her? (The time he actually got it for her when he came to her debut ball, not when he couldn't get it at the bookstore). That's about it, though.  

[Smad]

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

I wonder what Rory thought when Christopher apparently did nothing whatsoever for her graduation from high school. Also why didn't we hear Lorelai taking him to task for it. 

It's little things like that reinforce the bad father image, but it didn't do any favors for Lorelai as a mother either.

That was my first thought. Lorelai got a big basket for her graduation and Rory got absentee father.

[hippielamb]

11 hours ago, junienmomo said:

I wonder what Rory thought when Christopher apparently did nothing whatsoever for her graduation from high school. Also why didn't we hear Lorelai taking him to task for it. 

It's little things like that reinforce the bad father image, but it didn't do any favors for Lorelai as a mother either.

I could see him sending her a cheque. Chris has a habit of giving gifts to try and make up for his shortcomings. The gift basket to Lorelai versus no mention of anything for Rory later further highlights the point that Lorelai is his main focus. He only brings up Rory as his daughter as a way to get to Lorelai as we see in the next episode or when 

Spoiler

he feels jealous later in the series. He gets better by series end but it's a long road for him. 

I do think Christopher cares about Rory but she is not a priority to him. She's more like an appendage to Lorelai in his eyes. 

[Guest]

Any talk of Rory's graduation and what Chris did and didn't do should not be in the Season 2 thread.  I have a response, but I will take it to the Season 3 thread.  

Thanks!

[JaggedLilPill]

Help Wanted was a great Richard/Lorelai episode. It's funny because earlier in the season we have RISH where Richard criticizes Lorelai at work, but then in HW, you can see he really respects her as a businesswoman. It's definitely bittersweet that he was looking to delay their search in favor of spending more time with Lorelai. "She's no Margie" has so much subtext.

Lorelai's Graduation Day is another great episode with Richard/Emily and Lorelai. Sometimes I think if the three of them could sit down and find middle ground....sigh. It's such a complicated relationship between Richard/Emily and Lorelai, Emily/Lorelai and Richard/Lorelai. I think it's obvious that they love their daughter and she loves them, but they have such different ways of living that it's often hard to relate to each other. What Lorelai perceives as Emily going very OTT with the cameraman, etc, is really just Emily trying to capture a moment that sadly, she and Richard never got to experience before with Lorelai. And I think Lorelai recognizes that, especially when she is called up on stage and sees their reaction. There is pride. They are proud of her.

I was never ever a Jess/Rory shipper, (in fact, I loathe Jess) but that being said, I think it's realistic that levelheaded Rory, who is still denying her feelings for Jess at this point in time, impulsively ditches school to see him one more time. In a way, I think she thought this could be their goodbye. She needed it to be their goodbye so she could get him out of her system and go back to 'normal.' But then he shows up in the finale and well, that clearly isn't happening.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

Love Christopher's gift basket but I always wonder what Sherry thought about him buying a pricey piece of jewellery for his ex. *handwave* Whatever, it's a sweet gesture.

And see, I kind of assumed that part of that was Sherry's handiwork - Chris has never actually done anything thoughtful like that of his own volition.  Plus, Sherry seems like the kind of person who would go over the top to prove how cool she is and how ok she is that they're still friends and how much she appreciates Lorelai for raising Chris's daughter. (...Possibly I am myself that kind of person, so either its projection or 'takes one to know one'.)

Edited May 19, 2016 by Eeksquire

[hippielamb]

16 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

And see, I kind of assumed that part of that was Sherry's handiwork - Chris has never actually done anything thoughtful like that of his own volition.  Plus, Sherry seems like the kind of person who would go over the top to prove how cool she is and how ok she is that they're still friends and how much she appreciates Lorelai for raising Chris's daughter. (...Possibly I am myself that kind of person, so either its projection or 'takes one to know one'.)

That's an interesting perspective. I thought the items in the basket had a Christopher feel to them. They were all kind of jokey presents with the exception of the necklace. Sherry is hard to get a impression on. I could see her doing that for Rory but she didn't seem to want any kind of relationship with Lorelai. She didn't get Lorelai's sense of humour in the episode where they meet, so it makes me think it was all Chris. It's always nice to read other fans interpretations of these episodes.

[Guest]

Should I rant about how much I hate Lorelai in Teach Me Tonight? I think I'll spare you all since I've done it so many times.

I love Help Wanted and the complexities of the Richard/Lorelai relationship.

I really hate Can't Get It Started. Nothing particular about the plot; the whole episode just bores me.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

I really hate Can't Get It Started. Nothing particular about the plot; the whole episode just bores me.

I hate the foreshadowing of the sad song turning out to be prescient regarding Lorelai and Christopher.  Because even Sookie's wedding has to be about Lorelai, even if only subtextually.

[Lady Calypso]

Ah, season 2. The beginning of season two definitely started off quickly, wrapping us some plot points. 

I never really bought this Max/Lorelai engagement/wedding arc. I thought it was too fast, especially for them. I mean, they may have met last year, but they didn't really get into a relationship until late October and then they broke up and were broken up for a few months. And then when they finally start dating again, they're jumping into an engagement but also a marriage three months later? But I guess it never was supposed to make sense, especially since we didn't even get to see Lorelai break it off with Max and she seemed fine with it. 

I didn't hate the introduction of Jess, contrary to some. I just saw this as a 17 year old kid who has clearly not been taught by his parents the rights and wrongs of the world, a kid who's acting out and needs a lot of patience and time spent on making sure that he knows the support he does have. His attitude is certainly not a good one and he definitely needed to apologize for many of his own actions.  The episode where Jess is introduced didn't do Lorelai any favours. Her speech to Jess during dinner was not her best. It didn't seem as friendly as she thought it was, plus Jess said only a couple of comments and suddenly, Lorelai's tossing him out as if he just robbed her. But ultimately, I liked the character of Jess. Cliche and sterotypical? A little bit. But I liked the growth they gave Jess and they gave him layers and a story quickly. His first solo night scene with Rory that displayed his love for books, for example. 

So yeah, Rory/Jess worked for me, even if he was a total jackass for a lot of the season. I definitely don't agree with his taunting with Dean, just because it bugged him. I do understand that we saw a change in Rory too. I'm not so sure that I loved it, but I can see why. Being a teenage girl and discovering that she may not be that in love with her first love is confusing. She also never learned about romantic love because she had a pretty dysfunctional childhood. She only had her mom in her life as family, with her grandparents as people who she rarely saw until a year ago. Her father was never in her life, and it doesn't seem like Lorelai ever brought home guys so Rory is sheltered at this point when it comes to men. I actually kind of liked seeing that Rory isn't all that perfect and innocent and meek. They let her make some mistakes, even with her mom trying to prevent that from happening. 

I can see why Lorelai was less than inviting toward Jess. It's clear that he reminds her of herself and the types of guys that she hung around with. Dean may look like Christopher, but I'm willing to bet that Jess' personality reminds her of herself and Christopher, the ones that had the rough childhood and lashed out and did things that they would regret. Lorelai just wanted to prevent Rory from going down that route and turning into her. But I don't think she considered that Dean wasn't that perfect good guy for Rory either. Lorelai didn't get to see a lot of Dean's more angry moments. Her attitude toward Jess was disappointing though, and I do think that Jess was given an unfair chance, not just by Lorelai but by everyone. Yes, he's a punk that steals and gets into fight. However, the whole town seemed ready to turn on him when anything happened. None of them gave him a fair chance. Luke and Rory were the only ones to actually open up their minds and try with him, which is why he got closer with them over the season. But Lorelai closed him off completely during that first dinner, when he had the audacity to be snippy to her once right after coming to a town that he didn't want to be in. 

Dean also became very hostile and protective this season. I love Jared Padalecki as an actor, but his choice in how to play Dean did not make me like the guy as much as I did in the first season. He got too jealous and too bitter in almost every episode, and he yelled half of his lines angrily. Maybe it was to give reason for Rory to distance herself from Dean and move toward Jess, but I also know this isn't far off from his personality in the first season. It just FELT like they were giving reasons for Rory/Dean to not work out, which worked. I was turned off by Dean by the Romeo and Juliet episode, before Jess was ever a problem. He just got worse over the season with his constant yelling and constant jealousy over anything that Rory did. He just never trusted Rory at all, and he never seemed truly happy with her successes. He faked it, but he never seemed excited or 100% happy for her. 

However, him finishing Rory's car was very, very sweet of him. He's definitely not all bad and I'm glad they gave him some good episodes (even if in that episode, he displayed a nasty attitude toward Richard which I did NOT agree with).

It was tough to watch the problems with Richard and Emily happening throughout the first half of the season, but I like that things weren't just resolved in two episodes. 

I liked Jess/Luke and how their familial relationship grew. Honestly, I remember the April/Luke mess of the later seasons to a point and I'll comment more on that when I get there, but why did they feel like it was necessary to have two relatives of Luke's become major arcs? The Luke/Jess one worked extremely well. I don't think Luke needed April to show up later to try to recreate this. But that's personal opinion as of the moment. I'll see once I start season 6. 

I liked Christopher a bit more this season and didn't mind the Lorelai/Christopher budding relationship at the end of the season. Sookie/Jackson's wedding was cute, at least. 

I did feel bad for the Luke/Lorelai fight that was ongoing, but I think if Lorelai had tried a more sincere apology and talked to Luke more instead of doing her playful flirty thing, maybe things could have been resolved sooner. As it is, Lorelai couldn't have meant her apology because she still believed that it was all Jess' fault. Even with acknowledging that Rory had feelings for Jess, she wasn't understanding Luke's side of things. She wouldn't even listen to Rory. 

As for favourite episodes, I have a few. I liked Nick and Nora/Sid and Nancy more than I thought I would. I liked the introduction of Jess. I also like Like Mother, Like Daughter because we got to see Emily and Lorelai bond a little more.  A-Tisket, A-Tasket is one that I actually enjoyed. I am definitely putting it on a rewatch list when I finish the series. Not only were there Luke/Lorelai moments, but we get a slightly softer side to Jess, and we get Sookie/Jackson.

Lost and Found is one I didn't think I liked at first, but the Jess/Luke subplot was very well done. I think that's what we needed. Plus, it made me absolutely fall in love with Jess. I think it was the (very small, unimportant) scene where Luke came in, freaking out about the mess and woke up the sleeping Jess to yell that they were finding a new place to live. Seeing him asleep with a book in his hands, while surrounded by books? I don't know; it was kind of cute and endearing. Plus, it was clear that he was very uncomfortable with Lorelai because of her initial reaction to him, and seeing him close himself off when around her made me feel bad for him. But the fact that he actually tried with Lorelai until she caught him returning the bracelet? All for Rory? It was oddly sweet. 

And finally, Dead Uncles is a really great episode. I'll echo the episode as being one of my favourites. So many good moments, both big and small. 

Least favourite episodes? I echo the It Should've Been Lorelai. I haven't hated Christopher yet, not to the extent of many, but I was annoyed because of Sherrie. Her character grated on my nerves ("I want to get to know Rory....BUT NOT YOU. BTW, do me this favour and get Rory out of dinner with her grandparents") and they could have built up Christopher/Rory's non-existent relationship more without her.

And speaking of, I actually have an issue with Lorelai giving Christopher so much slack in not being in Rory's life much. I would think that she would create stricter rules with him and try harder at getting Christopher to be in his daughter's life. Yet, she has seemed unaware of how little he is involved and she allows him to just pop back in whatever. Ok, good for Rory that she gets to see her dad twice or three times a year. Good that she tries to keep Rory's hopes down. But I don't think she does enough in calling him out on it, or protecting her daughter from this flake. She just says her quips and smiles, and then falls back in love with him. Then when he makes some sort of effort, she gets jealous and almost sabotages it. It's very unhealthy. She needs to be a mother when Christopher's involved instead of a best friend. 

Also, There's the Rub is not a favourite, although it feels like an episode that could change my mind upon a couple of rewatches. 

Apparently I had a lot more thoughts about season 2 than I thought, so further thoughts I guess will be left for later.

[junienmomo]

One of the more interesting sub-themes in season 2 is Lorelai's opinion/relationships to Dean and Jess. We know Lorelai frequently behaves immaturely, and her affection for Dean borders on the creepy, but I think she's trying to live the Barbie Dream Relationship for Rory/Dean in the same way she tried to live it for her and Max. 

Then Jess comes on the scene, upsetting much more than Tristan ever did. Not only does he burst her Perfect Mom (TM) bubble, but he messes with her relationships.

He messes with Luke, to whom Lorelai had a noticeable attraction in S1. They fight, and he's no longer her (imagined) best friend. After Luke settles in a little as an ersatz parent, she coaches him on things like getting a new apartment, but pushes him away too, mostly by not trusting Jess, except for her single defense of him in the town meeting.

He messes with Rory, which really disturbs her dream for Rory to have the romantic relationships the way Lorelai imagines them. Instead we have Jess, who is not only disliked by Lorelai, but also the Most Likely to Take Her Daughter's Virginity winner.

It's a great story line to watch, and see Lorelai really struggle with being a parent of an almost-adult.

[TimetravellingBW]

2 hours ago, junienmomo said:

One of the more interesting sub-themes in season 2 is Lorelai's opinion/relationships to Dean and Jess. We know Lorelai frequently behaves immaturely, and her affection for Dean borders on the creepy, but I think she's trying to live the Barbie Dream Relationship for Rory/Dean in the same way she tried to live it for her and Max. 

Then Jess comes on the scene, upsetting much more than Tristan ever did. Not only does he burst her Perfect Mom (TM) bubble, but he messes with her relationships.

He messes with Luke, to whom Lorelai had a noticeable attraction in S1. They fight, and he's no longer her (imagined) best friend. After Luke settles in a little as an ersatz parent, she coaches him on things like getting a new apartment, but pushes him away too, mostly by not trusting Jess, except for her single defense of him in the town meeting.

He messes with Rory, which really disturbs her dream for Rory to have the romantic relationships the way Lorelai imagines them. Instead we have Jess, who is not only disliked by Lorelai, but also the Most Likely to Take Her Daughter's Virginity winner.

It's a great story line to watch, and see Lorelai really struggle with being a parent of an almost-adult.

Lorelai's view on Dean vs. Jess was always really interesting. I kind of wonder if a reason she was always so pro Dean (apart from the fact she had control over the Dean/Rory relationship which we've discussed before) was that he seemed like an antithesis of Christopher and guys her teenage self dated.

We know Chris is flighty, unreliable, risky and rebellious, and the two had an on/off relationship Lorelai could never let go of. Several times she voiced fears that Rory would end up like her regarding men. So Dean - who was safe, reliable and committed - must have seemed ideal to ensure Rory didn't make the same mistakes Lorelai did.  (I could even theorise that she subconsciously saw parallels between him and Luke, a small town, reliable guy who ended up being the guy for her. Trouble was Rory needed a different partner compared to Lorelai and Luke had a lot of important traits Dean lacked). 

I think Lorelai's appreciation for what an "ideal" safe boyfriend Dean was, made her blind to his faults: That his "reliability" actually crossed into clingy, jealous and controlling a lot of the time.  Which got pretty worrying late in the season when Rory was feeling pressured and uncomfortable with Dean calling constantly and flipping out about her having friends over without him, but Lorelai just saw him being a sweet, devoted boyfriend and told Rory not to make him worry so much. She really should have stepped in and asked why Rory felt uncomfortably and acknowledged that it was ok - and normal - for high school relationships to end. 

With Jess, I think Lorelai definitely saw the type of rebellious, unstable, flight-risk kind of guy she used to go for (or even how she was as a teenager) and let that judgement colour everything about Jess. While she made token gestures to get along with him for Rory and Luke's sake, it seemed she was just waiting to catch him out most of the time. She never wanted to see anything more than a typical bad boy. Her outburst in Teach Me Tonight felt like she'd been waiting for the chance to write Jess off and justify "hating him forever", basically for being rude and difficult with her. 

Ironically, the long term fate of the guys - that Dean ends up a cheating loser going nowhere, while Jess becomes happy, mature and fairly successful - actually makes Lorelai look like a terrible judge of character. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[shron17]

14 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

And speaking of, I actually have an issue with Lorelai giving Christopher so much slack in not being in Rory's life much. I would think that she would create stricter rules with him and try harder at getting Christopher to be in his daughter's life. Yet, she has seemed unaware of how little he is involved and she allows him to just pop back in whatever. Ok, good for Rory that she gets to see her dad twice or three times a year. Good that she tries to keep Rory's hopes down. But I don't think she does enough in calling him out on it, or protecting her daughter from this flake. She just says her quips and smiles, and then falls back in love with him.

So, just realized how closely these two relationships are entwined in Lorelai's mind.  She gives Christopher slack with Rory because she still wants the possibility of a romantic relationship with him and she keeps allowing herself to fall back in love with Christopher so easily because he's Rory's father which should (in theory at least) automatically reduce any risk her relationships have for Rory. 

[clack]

Dean becomes insecure around Rory, rightly so. He begins to suspect that she is out of his league. His sense of self-worth is at stake.

And not only his sense of self-worth. He idealizes Rory, but if she prefers Jess, someone who Dean doesn't respect, who he sees as a poser, a loser, a jerk -- what then does that say about Rory? Dean's self-image is damaged, but so too is his image of Rory.

No wonder Dean turns defensive. He has a lot to defend.

[Lady Calypso]

17 minutes ago, clack said:

Dean becomes insecure around Rory, rightly so. He begins to suspect that she is out of his league. His sense of self-worth is at stake.

And not only his sense of self-worth. He idealizes Rory, but if she prefers Jess, someone who Dean doesn't respect, who he sees as a poser, a loser, a jerk -- what then does that say about Rory? Dean's self-image is damaged, but so too is his image of Rory.

No wonder Dean turns defensive. He has a lot to defend.

I can see that as being a thing. He definitely did have a lot of insecurities, but he definitely has a part in their eventual break up. He had issues with Tristan in season 1 for good reason, but that burst of anger during the dance episode just opened the door to the real emotion inside of him, as evident this season. Taking a look at Hammer and Veils, before Jess even steps into Stars Hollow, it's clear that Dean has issues with Rory's successes. His idealistic vision of him being Rory's number one definitely starts the damper in their relationship. He feels like she's choosing others over him, and I think his inability to hide his emotions makes it difficult to maintain that happy, young love relationship. When she chooses to focus on finding extracurriculars and break off their plans, he gets insanely jealous and angry. He took an unfortunate situation but blew it up way more than it should have. 

And then Jess comes on the scene and it gets worse. He sees Jess, as does the town, as a punk bad boy who is only going to hurt Rory if they even become friends. He gets into fights, he skips school, he smokes, he steals, he's a troubling kid, and he's an outsider. Dean used to be that outsider in the town and now it's Jess. He sees Rory starting to get attached to him and defending him and that doesn't sit right. He lets his emotions get in the way. It's like his insecurities with Tristan. For some reason, it just showed that he couldn't trust Rory. It had nothing to do with Tristan in that Romeo and Juliet episode. It had everything to do with Rory. Even though Tristan and Rory kissed, it wasn't a real kiss that meant anything to her. Yet even before finding that out, Dean didn't trust his own girlfriend. He didn't trust her last season with him either. So the fact that there's already trust issues just shows the reasons why Rory drifted apart from Dean.

Maybe she wouldn't have drifted apart from him if not for his clingy, overprotective, jealousy issues. Or maybe it would have just taken a bit longer. But the one thing about this is that it's just as much Dean's fault as it is Rory's for their distance over the season. 

2 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

With Jess, I think Lorelai definitely saw the type of rebellious, unstable, flight-risk kind of guy she used to go for (or even how she was as a teenager) and let that judgement colour everything about Jess. While she made token gestures to get along with him for Rory and Luke's sake, it seemed she was just waiting to catch him out most of the time. She never wanted to see anything more than a typical bad boy. Her outburst in Teach Me Tonight felt like she'd been waiting for the chance to write Jess off and justify "hating him forever", basically for being rude and difficult with her. 

Definitely. It's Lorelai's fear of Rory turning into her that prevents any type of positive relationship with Jess to form this season. Even when she tried to give him a chance, I think she still had that barrier up about him and was never going to give him a fair chance to prove her wrong. She had to have known that a guy like him can't change so quickly. It takes time and patience. So the less willing people were to give him a chance to change, the less Jess wanted to try. We saw with Rory and Luke that he made progress with them both. He got closer to Rory, and he eventually created a positive relationship with Luke, enough to come back to Stars Hollow and ask for a second chance. It's because they didn't jump to conclusions about him and actually tried with him. 

Lorelai kept showing her true emotions about Jess to Jess' face himself. She called him a jerk in front of him, she compared her younger self to him and acted all high and mighty, she accused him of many things (yes, he did many of those things) but acted like he would never change and that he would never be good enough for Rory, so it's no wonder that he was hostile toward her. Seeing their small talk in Lost and Found showed that their relationship could have changed if not for the bracelet incident. It showed that Lorelai was capable of changing her opinion about him over time, and that Jess could have a better relationship with Lorelai, having one more person on his side. But since Lorelai saw too much of her and her old boyfriends in Jess, she wrote him off and it exploded into that huge fight with Luke. And the fact that she never understood his point of view, and would not change her opinion, showed that her written apology was probably BS and Luke saw right through it, hence why their relationship was not mended by the end of the season. 

[TimetravellingBW]

7 hours ago, shron17 said:

So, just realized how closely these two relationships are entwined in Lorelai's mind.  She gives Christopher slack with Rory because she still wants the possibility of a romantic relationship with him and she keeps allowing herself to fall back in love with Christopher so easily because he's Rory's father which should (in theory at least) automatically reduce any risk her relationships have for Rory. 

Lorelai giving Chris so many free passes on flaking out on Rory drove me crazy, she joked about it and dropped hints about his unreliability but she never seriously called him out. I think part of the problem was Lorelai always treated Chris like he was still 16 - and yeah he did act immaturely but she never expected him to be anything more than that. So she never looked at him as "hey what should a 30+ year old man be doing for his daughter", she looked at it as "what should Chris being doing for his daughter." Which is why stuff as simple as turning up to Rory's debutante and coming after she broke her arm was treated as miraculous, father of the year behaviour. Because for Chris - who she viewed as forever 16 - it was amazing. Idk, Lorelai and Chris's dynamic always had a weird, frozen in time feel to it. Lorelai seemed like a different person with him. 

[hippielamb]

On 8/30/2016 at 5:25 PM, Lady Calypso said:

And speaking of, I actually have an issue with Lorelai giving Christopher so much slack in not being in Rory's life much. I would think that she would create stricter rules with him and try harder at getting Christopher to be in his daughter's life. Yet, she has seemed unaware of how little he is involved and she allows him to just pop back in whatever. Ok, good for Rory that she gets to see her dad twice or three times a year. Good that she tries to keep Rory's hopes down. But I don't think she does enough in calling him out on it, or protecting her daughter from this flake. She just says her quips and smiles, and then falls back in love with him. Then when he makes some sort of effort, she gets jealous and almost sabotages it. It's very unhealthy. She needs to be a mother when Christopher's involved instead of a best friend. 

It's interesting that Lorelai doesn't take the stricter approach since Chris seems to respond to someone laying down the law. I think because of their long friendship/relationship she gave him a lot of latitude and didn't want to force Chris to do anything. I suspect (but can't prove) that Lorelai didn't want him to feel trapped back when they were teenagers and that continued for years. Her jealousy felt more about Sherry being a part of Rory's life. That would be weird: the flaky dad finally gets his act together because of the bossy girlfriend and now she wants to bond with the kid Lorelai raised.

[patchwork]

I think a part of Lorelei liked being a single parent, it was tough at times but she was the one controlling what happened in their lives especially when Rory was younger. She didn't have to answer to anyone which would have been very appealing after growing up with Emily and Richard. It's very telling that none of her dates/boyfriends where introduced to Rory prior to the series starting and her contact with Lorelei's boyfriends is very limited during. Until Rory left for college Lorelei didn't want to share her life with anyone else.

[junienmomo]

7 hours ago, patchwork said:

I think a part of Lorelei liked being a single parent, it was tough at times but she was the one controlling what happened in their lives especially when Rory was younger. She didn't have to answer to anyone which would have been very appealing after growing up with Emily and Richard. It's very telling that none of her dates/boyfriends where introduced to Rory prior to the series starting and her contact with Lorelei's boyfriends is very limited during. Until Rory left for college Lorelei didn't want to share her life with anyone else.

Absolutely spot on. She loved being in control (who doesn't), and was willing to make strong sacrifices and make others e.g. Rory sacrifice along with her. If she had been more secure within herself, she wouldn't have compartmentalized her life into Rory, Stars Hollow, Emily/Richard, Christopher, and her dating life. No one in any of those compartments had any significant knowledge of the other compartments unless Lorelai allowed it. Chilton changed that, forcing Lorelai to play whack a mole as she failed to keep the compartments separate. Rory getting old enough to make significant decisions on her own really shattered Lorelai's life structure.

[hippielamb]

On 9/1/2016 at 5:21 PM, patchwork said:

I think a part of Lorelei liked being a single parent, it was tough at times but she was the one controlling what happened in their lives especially when Rory was younger. She didn't have to answer to anyone which would have been very appealing after growing up with Emily and Richard. It's very telling that none of her dates/boyfriends where introduced to Rory prior to the series starting and her contact with Lorelei's boyfriends is very limited during. Until Rory left for college Lorelei didn't want to share her life with anyone else.

Oh yeah, I agree. One of the things I admire about Lorelai's parenting is the conscious effort to keep her dating life separate from Rory. That's one thing about Liz that I take issue with. I think Lorelai liked it just being her and Rory. Chris could flit into their lives periodically and she was fine with it. He has his freedom (and Lorelai appears to be the coolest babymama ever) while she raises Rory how she wants with no interference from anyone. Well, until the elder Gilmores re-entered their lives.

[langway]

Episode 12 "Richard in Stars Hollow"

Emily is telling Lorelai and Rory that there isn't enough room in the burial plot if Lorelai were to get married. So, they're trying to decide who to kick out and move to the annex they will be buying.

LORELAI: Oh, oh. Well, uh. . .ugh, why don’t we move Aunt Cecile? She was always so annoying at parties. She loved the knock-knock jokes.

RORY: Mom!

LORELAI: What?

RORY: You can’t just kick out Aunt Cecile.

LORELAI: Knock-knock. Who’s there? Pineapple. Pineapple who? That’s where it ended. Never fully grasped the knock-knock concept.

EMILY: She was a complete idiot. Okay, it’s decided – Cecile goes.

and then some more banter, and then Richard comes downstairs

RICHARD: Sorry I’m late. What did I miss?

EMILY: We were just discussing who to move to the annex.

RICHARD: Oh. I vote for Cecile. Horrible woman, and those terrible jokes.

I cackled like a fucking witch. Lorelai and Emily had the same facial expressions and hand movements when it happened, too. What a funny scene.

[junienmomo]

Can I get some love for Nick and Nora/Sid and Nancy? 

I just rewatched and am amazed by how many quotable lines and memorable moments there are. A sampling:

• jam hands
• first day of school
• pushing Jess in the lake
• classic fight and makeup of Lorelai and Luke
• "This is Hell" song
• Do you have a sister? ... You have my sympathies
• Paris/Rory competition over the paper

The flow is among the best of all GG episodes, it has lots of real emotions with Rory/Max and Luke/his sister. 

This is definitely one of my favorite episodes.

[lulu1960]

Season has my all time favorite episode, Dead Uncles and Vegetables. Plus, it has many other faves as well.

I agree Nick and Nora is definitely a good one.

[Taryn74]

N&N fills me with glee.

[cantbeflapped]

I love Nick and Nora.  When I get there during a rewatch I'm always like...."Yipeee.....Jess is coming to town!"  

[junienmomo]

Presenting Lorelai Gilmore

Just a couple of thoughts that came up during a recent rewatch...

• Christopher was a real jerk letting Lorelai come on to him for so long. Her kiss was a kiss of promise stronger than her balcony night with him. If he hadn't confessed about Sherry, a good point for him, Rory would have found her parents together the next day. 
• That would have really changed the next episodes, particularly her relationship with Luke. Gone would be the jokes about has he dated anyone, and especially the Ava scene. She would have had absolutely no grounds to call him out because Christopher would have been all over SH on the weekends and the Christopher-Lorelai relationship would be front and center. But the night of the debutante ball, that is exactly what Lorelai was signing up for.
• Lorelai was really lacking in self-reflection, unwilling to tell Rory about the aborted Christopher relationship (a good parenting move), but went to her mother for an awkward morning in which she wanted Emily to do exactly what Lorelai felt was impossible when she was in the same situation.

[ChlcGirl]

I just started my rewatch in anticipation for 11/25 and am at Road Trip to Harvard.  I've always ranked this one LOOOOOOWWWWW in GG episodes but I was struck today by something that hadn't ocurred to me before.  Lorelei and Rory make a lot of fun of the look of the Cheshire Cat B&B ... but really, does their house decor look much different?  Pot meet pot.

[Melancholy]

The Dragonfly was Kitch Central too. The Independence Inn was classically elegant and more like a restrained hotel. However, the Dragonfly was a lot like the Cheshire Cat. Kitchy decorations, big emphasis on homeiness, schedules printed up with activities, boardgames and activities and attractions like horseback rides to promote mingling. There wasn't an included hotel breakfast with encouraged mingling- that's the only difference that I can see. 

I think Road Trip to Harvard is very funny but Lorelai is particularly insufferable in it. Running away from her problems and leaving Sookie to deal with the social fallout, treating Rory terribly for daring to ask for a conversation to help her deal with and understand why Lorelai upended Rory's future, actually pulling the "I'm your mom, not your best friend" card all of a sudden specifically to avoid doing a mother's work to help her child emotionally cope with familial chaos, the hypocritical condescension about the Cheshire, treating the Cheshire Cat owner so rudely with no empathy for the challenges of their very similar jobs, treating Harvard student's very private dorm rooms like her own personal jungle gym with no heed to their rights to privacy and security. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Melancholy

[ChlcGirl]

I soooooooooo wanted to mention all that about the Dragonfly, but wanted to be sure to keep everything on S2!!!! Lol

Every sentence you wrote?  Went through my head :D

Actually, now that I really think about it?  All of Stars Hollow was a giant Cheshire Cat.  All of those idiotic festivals (except the Living Art. That was sincerely cool)

[Kohola3]

Quote

 All of Stars Hollow was a giant Cheshire Cat.

Including the Chat Club.

[Melancholy]

9 minutes ago, ChlcGirl said:

Actually, now that I really think about it?  All of Stars Hollow was a giant Cheshire Cat.  All of those idiotic festivals (except the Living Art. That was sincerely cool)

LOL, yes. Although, I like kitch and cuteness as a tourist. I mean, within reason. I don't care for like Disney World artificially manufactured cuteness but I've enjoyed authentically cute little towns and regard them as part of the New England experience. I never wanted to live in Stars Hallow (primarily because Dooze's Market looks kind of gross and limited and I wouldn't want to be under Taylor's control) but I sure wanted to visit. I've stayed at B&B's like the Cheshire and had a grand old time. However, Stars Hallow/the Dragonfly is still cut from the same cloth as the Cheshire and Lorelai has no reason to feel superior. 

[Kohola3]

1 minute ago, Melancholy said:

I don't care for like Disney World artificially manufactured cuteness but I've enjoyed authentically cute little towns and regard them as part of the New England experience.

I do think that independent shops in New England are pretty cool.  My favorite was in Bar Harbor - Dancing Madly Backwards.  I'll never forget it for both the name and the eclectic contents.

Doose's, I agree, I can do without. I picture it having wood floors with all kinds of "stuff" in the cracks.

[ChlcGirl]

If I was driving through Connecticut, I would absolutely insist upon stopping at Stars Hollow.  I mean the shopping alone! How many small towns boast such a vibrant downtown?? Book store, vintage clothing (seen in S1), the Chat Club, and a diner.  I'm a sucker for diner food.

And yep - Lorelei's superiority was absurd given well,  everything in her life.

[Melancholy]

I would also really like Luke's. Other than one HORRIBLY memorably disillusioning moment where Luke was all, "The Caesar salad comes from Paul Newman bottled dressing", Luke's seems like a great restaurant with unbelievably good prices for great looking food. (Like $1 for huge-ass cups of coffee and whatever unbelievably low price for toast that Kirk was fighting Luke over.) It's also cool to be served by the proprietor himself. I'd also like Weston's bakery (beautiful cakes in a really cute environment) and Andrew's bookstore. I wouldn't care for how there's so few good restaurants in Stars Hallow. I feel like touristy small towns should have a bigger variety of good food. Like Al's Pancake World shouldn't be such a big contender because there's so little variety. Lorelai and Rory seem to have the option to eat very well but they're helped by their connections to the inns, Jackson, Luke's favoritistic treatment giving them a particularly good experience at Luke's, fancy FNDs full of variety, and their relish of horrible, processed, unhealthy food which I EMPHATICALLY don't share. 

Sookie's food are dazzlingly beautiful works of art. My mouth waters whenever the camera lingers in her kitchen. However, I'm 99 percent sure that both the Independence Inn and the Dragonfly charged an arm and a leg for meals there. They don't really mention the inn's prices other than Lorelai admitting that she does over-charge for the ambiance. However, I can't imagine Sookie running a kitchen to produce reasonably priced food. It's very possible that Sookie is such a great chef that her prices are justified but it makes regularly eating at the inn pretty unattainable for most people. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Melancholy

[JaggedLilPill]

Quote

 and their relish of horrible, processed, unhealthy food which I EMPHATICALLY don't share. 

Hehe. This made me laugh because my taste is similar to Lorelai's and Rory's. Thankfully, I'm not as bad as them, and I can reign it in when needed (i.e. needing to diet). But still. I think as far as food goes, I'd enjoy hanging out with L/R.

SH is cute and quaint. I'd probably want to stop there, but I don't think I'd want to live there. 

I agree that they could have used more restaurants/dining places. I'd probably hang out at Luke's a lot. My one Luke nitpick/UO though is it bugs me when he comments on Lorelai/Rory's/other people's bad eating habits. Um, you're serving it? And charging people for it? I know it's a facet of his personality and one of the things he and Lorelai banter about, but I'd be slightly put off by a diner owner/restaurant owner telling me to eat healthier. It seems slightly hypocritical to offer it on the menu and then gripe about it. 

[ChlcGirl]

Other than Al's, Luke's and Weston's, there is also a pizza place and that place where Lorelei and Max got food on their first date.  I'd be intrigued by Al's international nights!

[Melancholy]

I actually get where Luke is coming from. I don't think he supports his diner being the sole source of a diet. It's an indulgence. Diner food could be OK when eaten in moderation. Moreover, Luke seems to have plenty healthy items on his menu. Salads, soups, oatmeal, whole grain cereals, sandwiches with options to get whole wheat bread. I think I saw people eating fruit plates. Luke eats his diner fare with those healthy adjustments- like carrot sticks instead of fries or when he put together turkey burgers on a whole wheat bun for him and April. It's just that there's also unhealthy diner fare like burgers and milkshakes also on the menu. He gets aggravated that Lorelai and Rory rely on his diner so entirely and then, they ONLY order the unhealthy items. He pushes the healthy items at them but they only eat the unhealthy items. Like, Lorelai not eating any of the vegetables in the chicken soup when she had a cold. I bet that the other denizens of Stars Hollow who also go to Luke's a lot eat the healthier food because not everyone has the Gilmore Girls' metabolism and perfect health. 

At least, that's how I explain the food. I can't explain Luke's issues with the girls drinking so much coffee. Luke pushes the coffee at the diner. It's a big part of the diner. Customers sit down, and Luke instantly starts pouring coffee into the jumbo and seemingly bottomless cups. And then he gets aggravated that a lot of coffee was just consumed! 

Ooh, Doose's Market sucks but Taylor's Old Fashioned Soda Shop apparently has good ice cream. Although, IIRC, it was expensive and a little too fake for my tastes. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Melancholy

[ChlcGirl]

Mmmmmmm ... Burgers and milkshakes.  And Satan's starchy fingers.

I'm so glad that it's dinnertime.

[Taryn74]

8 minutes ago, ChlcGirl said:

Mmmmmmm ... Burgers and milkshakes.  And Satan's starchy fingers.

I'm so glad that it's dinnertime.

Yes!  I'm about ready to head down to the local diner instead of eating the enchiladas I made for supper LOL.

[JaggedLilPill]

8 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I actually get where Luke is coming from. I don't think he supports his diner being the sole source of a diet. It's an indulgence. Diner food could be OK when eaten in moderation. Moreover, Luke seems to have plenty healthy items on his menu. Salads, soups, oatmeal, whole grain cereals, sandwiches with options to get whole wheat bread. I think I saw people eating fruit plates. Luke eats his diner fare with those healthy adjustments- like carrot sticks instead of fries or when he put together turkey burgers on a whole wheat bun for him and April. It's just that there's also unhealthy diner fare like burgers and milkshakes also on the menu. He gets aggravated that Lorelai and Rory rely on his diner so entirely and then, they ONLY order the unhealthy items. He pushes the healthy items at them but they only eat the unhealthy items. Like, Lorelai not eating any of the vegetables in the chicken soup when she had a cold. I bet that the other denizens of Stars Hollow who also go to Luke's a lot eat the healthier food because not everyone has the Gilmore Girls' metabolism and perfect health. 

At least, that's how I explain the food. I can't explain Luke's issues with the girls drinking so much coffee. Luke pushes the coffee at the diner. It's a big part of the diner. Customers sit down, and Luke instantly starts pouring coffee into the jumbo and seemingly bottomless cups. And then he gets aggravated that a lot of coffee was just consumed! 

That's true. I guess for me, I would politely say, "Okay, thanks for the concern," and continue eating LOL. 

The coffee thing is ridiculous. He does serve tea (although not chai! Don't be hating on chai, Luke!) but he serves wayyyy more coffee. Lorelai may be a coffee junkie, but he's her enabler. 

Al's Pancake World always sounded like a train wreck, but one I'd want to be part of. 

Quote

 

Mmmmmmm ... Burgers and milkshakes.  And Satan's starchy fingers.

I'm so glad that it's dinnertime.

 

I know, right?

The thing about GG is if you really delve into it, there's so much meta-worthy aspects to explore. Even with the food. You have Lorelai coming from an environment where she probably had (well, unless Emily fired a maid before she got a new one!) homemade breakfasts and going to one where, unless she is at Luke's or Weston's, her and Rory are sustained by pop tarts. Not that there is anything wrong with pop tarts, but it's interesting to consider if even the food she eats is a rebellion against her past.

[Guest]

Does anyone want a specified thread for Stars Hollow?  Some discussion of the town is totally appropriate in this thread, but we're getting into items that would be a little spoiler-y for Season 2. 

Or a lot of this discussion could go to the All Episode Thread.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

Not that there is anything wrong with pop tarts, but it's interesting to consider if even the food she eats is a rebellion against her past.

Have you watched the full series? I will say no more here, but

Spoiler

Lorelai herself questions her love of pop tarts, in Season 7.  It's episode 7.03, in case you're interested in fast forwarding!