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Hey JaggedLilPill, I agree with a lot of your points!

 

I actually think you're being incredibly fair to Rory too.  And it hurts way more to be left FOR someone else, rather than simply broken up with and then be given a little bit of time to move on, in my experience.  I get that Rory was young, but that's a lot of deliberate behaviour she pulled in the Jess thing.  She didn't accidentally kiss Jess.

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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As an aside, I should say I really am not a big Dean fan, but the Dean/Rory/Jess triangle grates me to no end. It feels like crap when you're with someone and you know they are pulling away, but they deny it and so you try to convince yourself it's okay and that it's even partly your fault. Yeah, Dean's clinginess may have turned her off even more, but Rory was already starting to fall for Jess. So, no amount of space from Dean IMO would have changed that.

Yes, someone more mature and experienced than Dean would have broken up with Rory right after he realized she liked Jess. However he stilled liked/loved her, so he was trying to convince himself that he was wrong. She was also sending him mixed messages in her passive/aggressive way. I totally blame the majority of the triangle on Rory. Then again, she was also inexperienced and immature. 

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Then again, she was also inexperienced and immature.

 

I would wager that a majority of teenage first loves follow the path that the triangle did.  I never saw Dean as a stalker, just a teen age boy who is gaga over his first love, is too hurt to let things go because he hopes she'll see the light and come back to him.  High drama is the fuel of the teenage engine.

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I still blame Dean most of all. I believe in a genuine learning curve when it comes to being in touch with your sexual and romantic feelings enough to decide on a path forward in terms of commitment. That's Rory's challenge. However, Dean's problem isn't indecisiveness or not being able to balance his desires with his romantic commitments to stake out a dignified lifestyle. It's that he's a bully- and you should know better to do that by 16. Dean yells at Rory and berates her cuttingly and pressures her into doing thing that she doesn't want. He's a verbally abusive partner who sometimes can get so furious that he seems just a hair from getting physically violent- and apparently, he repeats the pattern with Lindsey. 

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I would wager that a majority of teenage first loves follow the path that the triangle did.  I never saw Dean as a stalker, just a teen age boy who is gaga over his first love, is too hurt to let things go because he hopes she'll see the light and come back to him.

 

I don't think Dean was a stalker, but I do think certain scenes between he and Rory played like she was scared of him.  I keep thinking of that scene with she, Paris and Jess in There's the Rub where Dean says he is coming over, and Rory acts terrified of what his reaction may be if he sees Jess in the house. 

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Also to add, I think Rory SHOULD have known better after she kissed Jess that she'd rather be with Jess and should break up with Dean. However, I do believe the interpretation that Rory wasn't in touch with and good at interpreting her raw passionate sexual feelings that went to Jess but she instead made herself HYPER-tuned in and forced herself into feeling more of her genuine feelings of commitment and higher-ideal love for Dean and a preoccupation of how she needs to be A Good Girl who keeps Dean as a boyfriend instead of dumping Dean for Jess. It's rough because after the fact, so many people argue that they wouldn't have looked poorly on someone who dumped their partner because they fell for someone else as opposed to STRINGING THE PARTNER ALONG. However, I think people who dump their SO for the new guy in town are looked as just as judgmentally, if not more so, than a person who keeps up the relationship when they're clearly yearning for someone else. It's not like there's this clear-cut dignity and regard for girls who dump their boyfriend for another guy or it's not proven that the boyfriend would be fine with being dumped as long as it was a clean break. I find it results in the same hurt feelings. You just have the somewhat intangible benefits that it's more honest and people can on with moving on faster- but the dumpee or the judgmental town doesn't really appreciate it at the time.

 

Now, I really think Rory loved Jess more than Dean, but Rory really failed at interpreting her love for Jess because it stemmed so much more from passion and sex (even though she ironically didn't have sex with Jess but did with Dean and Logan). As opposed to her genuine but milder love for Dean which was more about shared experiences and gratefulness and innocence and those were feelings that were rewarded and nurtured in her from childhood. So even though Rory deep down loved Jess more than Dean, I really really REALLY get her not wanting to dump Dean who she declared her love to in a hard-fought romantic way for Jess where Rory could only admit that she loved him on the Break Up Phone Call. Contrast "Because I love you, you idiot" with "I think....I think I may have loved you, but I just need to let it go." I think they're paradoxical where the "love you" to Jess is deeper, but the "love you" to Dean is something that Rory can take pride in and shout to the world. 

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Teach me Tonight - Boy, this episode stresses me out so much. I love it and I hate it. I love it because the Rory/Jess scenes are absolutely priceless and it's thanks to the accident they get into that we get the gem that is them hanging out together in New York at "Lorelai's Graduation Day". I hate it because the accident hits reset on so much of Rory's development this season.

 

But also the way Lorelai reacts when Rory explains that Dean won't like hearing she's studying with Jess is so gross I can't even.

Edited by cuddlingcrowley

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Teach me Tonight - Boy, this episode stresses me out so much. I love it and I hate it.

But also the way Lorelai reacts when Rory explains that Dean won't like hearing she's studying with Jess is so gross I can't even.

Help me with that. I thought all Lorelai said to Rory was that she didn't want to lie to Dean if he called.

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Teach Me Tonight has one of Lorelai Gilmore's top 5 Most Unlikable Selfish moments, imo - her yelling at Luke after the accident. I get that she hates Jess and she isn't wrong to be worried and upset about Rory. But she is supposed to be the adult here, ahead of the screwed-up 17-year-old she despises. And Luke is one of her important and dear friends, and she goes way out of line not only in accusing him of intentionally setting up Rory to be hurt, but in demanding that she and Rory should come first, ahead of his missing nephew or any other family.

For another purely selfish moment, see the scene in Red Light where she and Max finally discuss what getting married means, and she admits he has no role except to be a prop in her life. It's incredibly difficult for me to be sympathetic to Lorelai during those moments. 

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Help me with that. I thought all Lorelai said to Rory was that she didn't want to lie to Dean if he called.

 

 

Lorelai asks why she should lie to Dean if all Jess and Rory are doing is studying which is a perfectly fair question. After that the grossness, imo, starts. Rory replies:

 

 Well, you know as well as I do that it’s not gonna be okay with Dean if I’m studying with Jess.

 

 

 

Instead of that raising every red flag under the sun that this relationship has taken a very wrong turn along the way if Rory can't share something  as innocent as that with her boyfriend without expecting a blowout, Lorelai's immediate response is:

 

Then maybe you shouldn’t be.

 

 

If your boyfriend isn't going to be okay with you doing something than just don't do it, end of story. He's not her father, Lorelai!!

 

It doesn't stop there.

 

I mean, if you feel weird enough about it that I have to lie to Dean.

 

... then maybe there's something wrong with this little study date and you shouldn't do it. IMO, that's where Lorelai was going with that and the fact that she'd manipulate the conversation to put the spotlight on Rory for wanting to lie about the study session instead of questioning the jealous freak she's dating makes me die a little inside to be honest.

 

Now for bonus points:

 

LORELAI: You told me to tell him that you’re with Lane.

RORY: Well, that was just because – .

LORELAI: I don’t see Lane here – sounds like a lie to me.

RORY: Fine, forget it. Just don’t answer the phone.

LORELAI: Hello, I get calls there, too. I’m not ‘whatever happened to Baby Jane?’ yet, thank you very much.

RORY: Just tell him that I’m studying, which is what I am doing, so you will not be lying, okay?

 

 

 

Shut up, Lorelai! Thirteen year old me hated you during this season and I can see why.

Edited by cuddlingcrowley
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Thanks, Cuddling and moonb, I interpreted the observation to mean only the interchange with Lorelai right after Rory asked her to lie for her. 

The big issues that follow, like Lorelai's response to the accident: yeah, Lorelai is easy to hate for those choices.

 

When it comes to the 'lie for me' discussion, I interpreted Lorelai's remarks as a way to open the whole discussion, which should have included both the 'do you really want to be with Dean if he's going to act so badly' and 'Jess could be dangerous to your relationship with Dean' questions.

 

Rory has to deal with the jealous freak question and the eternal bad boy question. Lorelai didn't do what I hope a good mother would and teach Rory to explore both sides before she chose, but I didn't see it as strongly as you did, Cuddling. I do understand where you're coming from, though. Thanks for the clarification.

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I haven't been following along these threads or doing a rewatch, but I was bored last night and spent some time reading thru the Season threads.  This question jumped out at me -

 

I'm not American, so I'm thinking this is definitely a culture thing, but the exchange above might be one of the oddest conversations I've ever seen on this show -- a grandfather saying his granddaughter should date a lot of boys instead of being in an exclusive relationship. And I think the problem is that I have a different concept of what dating entails than someone from Richard's generation/culture would. So my question is: can someone clear up to me what Richard is actually saying?

 

I didn't find what Richard said odd at all.  He wasn't implying that Rory should have multiple sexual partners at 16, heavens no!  LOL.  Honestly, I doubt the subject of Rory having sex had even crossed his mind at that point, despite what he went thru with his own daughter, mostly because Rory was obviously a very different person than Lorelai at that age.  He just wanted Rory to feel free to go out on casual, fun dates with whomever she chose, rather than be tied down to just one person all the time.

 

There's actually lots of parents (and grandparents, in this case) that prefer their mid-teen kids not be in a serious relationship, and it doesn't really have anything to do with sex.  Kids that age are only just figuring out what they want to look for in a relationship, what kind of person they'd like to be with, what kinds of things they like to do on a date, etc -- not to mention they're only just figuring out what they want their future to look like.  It's hard to let yourself feel free to really explore a future that doesn't necessarily include your boyfriend/girlfriend when you're in a relationship, know what I mean?  (Especially at an age where every emotion is multiplied by a thousand.)  We even saw hints of that between Rory and Dean as early as season 2, when Dean was pushing Rory to tell him what was going to happen to "them" as a couple when Rory went off to Harvard.  Ugh.  No sixteen year old should have to feel like they have to plan their future based on what their SO is going to do.

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I sort of rolled my eyes at the whole Dean/Jess/Rory love triangle during this season, and just hoped it would blow over soon like most teenager crap. I didn't mind the three of them that much given their ages; but was seriously weirded out about how invested the whole town was in the relationship status of Rory Gilmore, as well as the occasional Mrs. Robinson vibe Lorelai gave off towards Dean. There's only so many times you can call an underage boy "beautiful" before it should start to raise some eyebrows. 

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Key to Dean's jealous anger over the whole Rory/Dean/Jess triangle is that Dean doesn't respect Jess, independent of Rory's interest in Jess.

In Dean's eyes, he is losing Rory to a creep -- a short, obnoxious punk loser. Dean idealizes Rory, feels that he knows her so well, that the two of them are so close. So, how alienating must it feel to realize that the Rory in his mind is not the real Rory, and that their intimacy is ephemeral?

How would anyone feel if they were not just being replaced in a loved one's affections, but being replaced in favor of someone who they genuinely despised? Maybe if, say, you were of a particular political persuasion and your SO dumps you for a Trump supporter.

So it isn't just jealousy, or feelings of loss, on Dean's part. It's that sick feeling of being betrayed, betrayed on a deep level, a level having to do with identity and self-worth.

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Good insight, clack. It must be especially painful if he realized that Rory's attraction was also very physical. She avoided sex with Dean, it was never mentioned or even implied that she wanted to go that far with him. Then again, Jess wasn't just some loser. He was intelligent and a hard worker and Dean only knew that Jess didn't fit into the traditional school model and got into a fight. 

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 Dean's outbursts at Rory are troubling imo, especially in Like Mother, Like Daughter, but to play devil's advocate for a minute, I think the triangle would look different if Rory weren't at the center of it. If you reverse their positions, and Dean is Rory and Rory is in Dean's position, watching as Lindsay both pursues Dean and relentlessly provokes Rory any time their paths cross.....but Dean keeps reassuring her there's nothing going on, he loves Rory, but constantly finds excuses to be around Lindsay, Rory would both suspect they had real feelings for each other, feel angry and jealous, and be made to feel crazy for trusting her own instincts. If everyone involved weren't teenagers, we'd call that gaslighting. Though I think one can make the case, per the comments above, that Rory, in her first romantic relationship, doesn't yet have the experience or emotional intelligence to understand initially what's going on with Jess, plus she's getting LOTS of outside pressures from multiple parties to stay the course with Dean. 

Edited by moonb
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For the rewatch this week...

Sadie, Sadie

Richard....maybe the writers overdid it a bit? Man, from silent and nearly tearful in his poutiness to attack dog in one second's time. A more subtle rudeness that finally crosses a line would have worked a little better for me. I'm with Lorelai...I wanted closure on the homemade twinkies.

Sookie's tearful happiness for Lorelai was touching...nice scene. Funny that she didn't know Max had proposed like the rest of the town.

Oh boy, I'd forgotten about Sookie's call to Emily at the end of this episode. So heartbreaking for Emily, and leads to what is probably my favorite dramatic scene of the series at the end of the next episode (Lorelai and Emily's talk).

Hammers and Veils

So, both the yelling match with Max present and Emily and Lorelai's "make-up"scene at the end are favorites. I think they are favorites simply for the emotional impact they made the first time I saw them...jaw dropping. Great raw emotion. "You're head is much too big for a veil"....way to reach out to your daughter, Emily...lol. Good continuity though. Random observation....I think that scene at the end may be the only scene in the series when we see Emily in short sleeves. I've looked for another to confirm that, but one might have slipped past me.

Red Light on the Wedding Night

Feel bad for Max....I never hated the guy or anything. Feel bad for Rory too.

That cake tasting was some pretty questionable ethics. :)

The blueberry pancake bit at Luke's and him setting the aside after he said he couldn't....the girls frantically blurting out their order....cute.

Road Trip to Harvard

Good solid GG episode. I enjoyed the B and B bits and the Harvard tour. Lorelai's slideshow for Emily....lol. Interesting scene with Lorelai telling Emily of the broken engagement. Kelly Bishop does a good job of making you wonder what Emily is thinking and if she's holding back after their "heart to heart" in Hammers and Veils. I've always been especially fond of the end of this episode. Nice L/L talk then a taste of things to come when Rory runs off to do her own thing (be with Lane) and Lorelai calls Sookie to get the inn conversation going.

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"Run Away, Little Boy"

I know the crux of this episode is about Dean's jealousy issues bubbling up to the surface, but I hate that Paris, Queen of Academic distinction, was given free reign to interpret the death scene in any way she chose, and did straight Elizabethan. So uninspired and unimaginative, especially for one of the most widely reinterpreted plays in Shakespeare's wheelhouse. I would've docked them for such lackluster performance.

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I know the crux of this episode is about Dean's jealousy issues bubbling up to the surface, but I hate that Paris, Queen of Academic distinction, was given free reign to interpret the death scene in any way she chose, and did straight Elizabethan. So uninspired and unimaginative, especially for one of the most widely reinterpreted plays in Shakespeare's wheelhouse. I would've docked them for such lackluster performance.

 

Thank you!! Whenever I rewatch that episode I just wanna scream because I always wonder if Paris' group might have ended up getting a failing grade because they seem to have seriously misunderstood the assignment. The teacher was very clear they should interpret the scene "in their own individual manner" while highlighting the themes of the scene and then proceeded to cite examples of the previous year's students creativity in doing so. If you're playing the scene straight, you're not showing your understanding of the themes of the scene, which is kind of the entire point. You're just showing your ability to memorize lines and, arguably, act!

Edited by cuddlingcrowley
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In Hammers and Veils, are we supposed to like or find Dean's behavior and attitude charming? I'm not sure if it's just the way Jared plays Dean, but there's an edge there that is really beyond "clingy teen boyfriend annoyed that girlfriend doesn't want to spend every second with him". And *this* is the guy Lorelai dotes upon...

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In Hammers and Veils, are we supposed to like or find Dean's behavior and attitude charming? I'm not sure if it's just the way Jared plays Dean, but there's an edge there that is really beyond "clingy teen boyfriend annoyed that girlfriend doesn't want to spend every second with him". And *this* is the guy Lorelai dotes upon...

Arguably the Palladinos aren't particularly great at writing romance, the show has a history of depicting boorish male behaviour as "funny" or "not that bad", and perhaps JP overplayed the scenes. I think it was supposed to get across that Rory started outgrowing Dean, before Jess was even in the picture. But since they're subtle as a sledgehammer about it all, yeah you can read his reaction as something slightly more uncomfortable than just teenage clinginess.

 

In general, IMO they intended to depict Dean's behaviour in season two as suffocating. Everything that translates as slightly more sinister than that was probably accidental. Lorelai has blinders when it comes to Dean and idealizes the Dean/Rory relationship, but to be fair she also often isn't around when Dean is overbearing towards Rory and she doesn't witness Rory's occasional jumpiness and her placating him because it seems as if she's scared that he'll get mad.

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Sadie Sadie...

This is the first episode I ever saw of the show and I always feel nostalgic about it.

I don't know whether to be amused or concerned that Rory is pushing for this wedding to happen, even down to the planning. I loved her hug with Lorelai at the Gilmores though. Also cute was Max recognizing Lorelai's happy bark. They have sweet moments yet something is off. Lorelai's comment that "I'm getting married" (instead 'we are getting married') appears that she is wrapped up in the fantasy/romance of it.

Dean is back with his cute new haircut and chemistry with Lorelai. ;) I did feel bad for him getting grilled by grandpa Gilmore.

Hammers and Veils

I like Madeline and her forgetting to be mad at Rory. I also love Richard and Rory's relationship. I think they do a good job of showing a grandparent-grandchild bond.

I can't take the Rory/Dean fight seriously. The fight between Lorelai and Emily is much more intense. It's sad that Lorelai thinks Emily can never be happy for her but I like that she realizes that she shares part of the blame for their dysfunctional relationship.

That engagement party looked like so much fun. I am convinced Stars Hollow runs on tourism and parties.

Red Light on the Wedding Night

It's very revealing how weirded out Lorelai is by Max sleeping over. It makes sense due to it always being her & Rory and how she doesn't want their dynamic to change. She maybe could've considered that before accepting to marry him. I don't fault her for not wanting him to be step-father to Rory. Not all step-parents take on a parental role. I think Max is inclined to go there because he already is an authority figure as Rory's teacher.

I had to laugh at Dean filling in Max on the girls eccentricities. Max knows Rory and he is in a relationship with Lorelai but he hasn't spent much time with them together as a family unit. Dean has. One more clue that Max doesn't fit.

Christopher! I love their easy back and forth with each other. I do think it is somewhat insensitive of Lorelai to only now inform him that she is engaged. Whatever. I love their conversation and that he was worried enough to call Rory. I also love Rory going with it when Lorelai needs a road trip.

Road Trip to Harvard

Road trip! I had to laugh at the girls different perspectives of knowing where they are going. Fits perfectly with their different personalities. Also, Rory with the map. It was nice seeing her at Harvard.

I like the moment when Lorelai is looking at the valedictorian photo and thinking of what could have been. But then she wouldn't have Rory. I also liked seeing their fight (although I hate it when they fight) Rory was really counting on this marriage and wants answers yet Lorelai can't explain it.

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there's an edge there that is really beyond "clingy teen boyfriend annoyed that girlfriend doesn't want to spend every second with him".

 

"clingy teen boyfriend annoyed that girlfriend doesn't want to spend every second with him" is basically everything I hate on a boyfriend. The fact that its considered so acceptable or even "romantic" and "cute" (see Lorelai) was something that I really struggled to come to terms with growing up, mainly that I had a right to be annoyed by it and that wasn't something wrong with me that I did. So I really feel for Rory in season 2 when she's feeling so suffocated and the person whose opinion matters to her the most is telling her she should find Dean's behavior charming and be flattered by it and it's essentially her fault if he might be overdoing it.

 

I don't think Rory ever reached a point she realized that even though she shared some great moments with Dean and he had some good qualities indeed, mainly how he graciously embraced the rory/lorelai double act, but he was also needy, clingy, overly agressive and failed to challenge her intelect and those are perfectly valid reasons not to want to be with someone anymore.

 

So I find that storyline problematic on itself even without focusing on Dean's agressiviness and how that definitely raised some worrying red flags. Because while Lorelai never witnessed their blow outs, she pushed on the notion Dean was this perfect boyfriend even though she would never have put up with his clingness if it was directed at herself. But that was Lorelai's perspective as a mom talking and Rory failed to recognize it for what it was.

 

she doesn't witness Rory's occasional jumpiness and her placating him because it seems as if she's scared that he'll get mad.

 

Actually, Lorelai at least does get to witness some of Rory's anxiety over wanting to placate Dean. For instance, at the top of my head, in "Run away little boy" she's with Rory when Rory is unable to eat out of worry at a possible blow out between Tristan and Dean. At "teach me tonight", Rory also expresses wanting to avoid a thing with Dean over her studying with Jess and Lorelai sees an issue with Rory studying with Jess rather Dean's jealousy. There are other examples, I'm sure.

 

And Rory textually says "don't me mad/are you mad/ are you sure you're not mad" to Dean A LOT in season 2. So, yes, it's in the text she's afraid he'll get mad at stuff BUT, and I hate to play devil's advocate here, IMO, she's afraid he'll get mad because she doesn't him to break things off with her, since there's precedent for it when Dean doesn't get his way immediately, rather than because she's afraid of HIM.

 

Is it a fine line? Yes. Would I ever want my daughter/my friend/my sister/my mother to be in relationship with someone like that? HELL TO THE NO. It's possible and even probable that kind of behavior might evolve to something even more problematic in the future? Hell yes. We even get to see it with Lindsay, a bit, but I still think the Palladino's failed to adress it more.

Edited by cuddlingcrowley
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So, yes, it's in the text she's afraid he'll get mad at stuff BUT, and I hate to play devil's advocate here, IMO, she's afraid he'll get mad because she doesn't him to break things off with her, since there's precedent for it when Dean doesn't get his way immediately, rather than because she's afraid of HIM.

 

I so agree with this! However, Rory also does not want to be the bad guy in the situation by being the one who breaks up with Dean. She, and I don't know if it is consciously, would rather push him away in her passive/aggressive way and have him leave her. That way, she isn't really the "bad guy," but more the one who was dumped, thus the victim, the wronged one. How many young people,at one time or another, didn't have the courage to make the first move, but either avoided the boyfriend/girlfriend, caused a fight, or disguised their true feelings. I know I did.

Edited by Aloeonatable
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However, Rory also does not want to be the bad guy in the situation by being the one who breaks up with Dean.

 

I get what you're saying and I agree Rory is definitely a people pleaser and didn't want to be the one to break up with Dean. But I have a bigger problem with her being made to feel like the "bad guy" in the first place if that were to occurr which is was went down in season 2, imo. And bled pretty heavily on her relationship with Jess, but that's a whole other discussion.

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I was trying to figure out if Max really wanted to marry Lorelai either and on this rewatch I'm thinking no. His "you need to think about someone other than yourself for five minutes a day" was not an "oops"--it was how he really felt. And he was kinda right. But that does beg the question for what was his motivation to marry her. Beauty is nice but there's got to be a little more there.

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I was trying to figure out if Max really wanted to marry Lorelai either and on this rewatch I'm thinking no. His "you need to think about someone other than yourself for five minutes a day" was not an "oops"--it was how he really felt. And he was kinda right. But that does beg the question for what was his motivation to marry her. Beauty is nice but there's got to be a little more there.

I'm convinced he did want to marry her. However, and this is where we have common ground, he didn't want to marry the real Lorelai, only his romantic notion of who she was. He fully expected to jump in as stepdad with full father privileges. He also expected to be in a real marriage, with give and take and loving commitment to each other.

He might as well have been trying to get married in a romance novel, because the woman he imagined he was marrying was as thin as a page from a book.

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But what was she to him? A manic type who is beautiful. I mean, there are worse things of course, but for someone portrayed as learned and erudite, he was pretty silly to think she'd change.

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Ah, maybe it's Max who's the true male Lorelai and not Jason or Alex - in terms of dysfunctional relationship approaches, not identity. 

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But what was she to him? A manic type who is beautiful. I mean, there are worse things of course, but for someone portrayed as learned and erudite, he was pretty silly to think she'd change.

 

 

I don't think they were together long enough for either to reach that point where you're activelly hoping a person's trait would change with time. IMO, both Max and Lorelai barely got passed the infatuation stage where everything you like in that person gets center stage and the things you're not crazy about are easily tolerated/brushed off because they haven't affected you in a real way yet. He probably thought she was perfect: beautiful, funny, smart, charismatic, sexy. Because up until the proposal he didn't get so see anything else. Then, afterwards, he had to deal with stuff like Lorelai's unwillingness to integrate him in her life and that's when shit got real because it shattered the expectations he had for their life together.

 

And that, kids, is why you probably ought to know a person longer than a few months before popping the question. And I say that as someone who really liked Max.

Edited by cuddlingcrowley
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That is a beautiful chuppah. My friend's was like four metal poles with a piece of fabric on top that he rented from the Judaica store. Lol. I had to return it the next day because I lived closest. I also held two of the poles if memory serves.

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Nitpicking Nick and Nora:

Lorelai and Rory are in the diner for breakfast on the first day of school. 

The pseudo-scouts come in and not only do they not seem to be going to school, they are ordering lunch foods. 

All of this in a single scene.

 

This is Hell is the best song-plot connection of the whole series. Yes, even better than I Will Always Love You, which comes in a close second because they chose Dolly's version over Whitney's.

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Nick & Nora/Sid & Nancy

I really don't like this episode or the addition of Jess. Maybe if he had been introduced in a different way I would have warmed up to him but his insulting behaviour to Lorelai in her home coupled with Luke's offensive remarks make this episode one I don't care for. I liked Sookie and Jackson cuteness and Rory's scene with Max. Also Rory's cheerful pluckiness in dealing with Paris is fun to watch.

Presenting Lorelai Gilmore

Christopher is back and Lorelai is into it. :) I like her look when he's walking away near the end, for such a verbal character Lorelai is good at expressing emotion without saying a word. I love her body language in this episode, it speaks volumes.

More signs that Rory is comfortable in the Gilmore world than Lorelai ever was, hard to imagine a teenage Lor doing a fan dance. I like the final scene. I think this is the first time Lorelai goes to her parents house without it being about filling an obligation. Baby steps.

Like Mother, Like Daughter

Emily's comment about Lorelai fitting into the world she ran away from shows the big conflict between them. It's not that Lorelai doesn't fit in, it's that she doesn't want to be part of that world and Emily can't understand it. I loved Emily hamming it up at the fashion show, she seemed to be having a good time. Is this the first time we see her be a little fun? It was cute.

The Ins and Outs of Inns

I wonder if it was intentional to have this episode be right after the previous one with the mother/daughter stories. I love Mia. (Wish I had a Mia, don't we all...) It was good to know that Lorelai had a supportive female figure in her younger years, sort of a role model for being a different type of parent to Rory than she had growing up and also as someone she could emulate careerwise.

I thought it was generous of Mia to send the pictures to Emily, considering how she was speaking to her. But I guess a career in the hospitality field trains you to dealing with difficult people. Their conversation illustrates their differing parenting philosophies.

Run Away Little Boy

They made Tristan somewhat likable only to write him off. Rory seemed a little into it at the end. Poor jealous Dean. Paris being her ever impatient self with Patty was pretty funny, as was her flipping out when she knew Tristan couldn't participate. She's so high strung I expect her to snap at any moment.

Luke's snippiness with Lorelai bugs me. I know the show wants us to feel bad for him that she's dating again but if he likes her so much why not ask her out? I felt the same way when he saw her with Max. He seems happy to bide his time watching from afar but as soon as another guy shows up, he cops an attitude as if he's entitled to her or something. I do like that she basically friend zoned him, it gives answers to why she isn't willing to go there yet.

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I really don't like this episode or the addition of Jess. Maybe if he had been introduced in a different way I would have warmed up to him but his insulting behaviour to Lorelai in her home coupled with Luke's offensive remarks make this episode one I don't care for.

 

I know we've already discussed Jess' behavior on another thread, or earlier on this one, but I don't know how one could introduce Jess any other way than the way he was introduced. He was basically kicked out of his mother's house and sent to live with an uncle he barely knew in a town he had no choice to be in. He was angry and with, IMO, Lorelai's condescending lecture kind of pushed him over the edge. 

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I agree Jess acted appropriately for his situation, but I didn't like the character. Later when I saw interviews with him, I decided he wasn't acting for the part of Jess. MV just comes across as a punk to me that I'd like to swipe the smirk off his face.

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I agree Jess acted appropriately for his situation, but I didn't like the character. Later when I saw interviews with him, I decided he wasn't acting for the part of Jess. MV just comes across as a punk to me that I'd like to swipe the smirk off his face.

The actor that plays Gypsy was interviewed on Gilmore Guys and when asked which guy she picked for Rory, she said Dean because of the actor.  She even elaborated on a situation with him and said what a punk he was.

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Presenting Lorelai Gilmore

Christopher is back and Lorelai is into it. :) I like her look when he's walking away near the end, for such a verbal character Lorelai is good at expressing emotion without saying a word. I love her body language in this episode, it speaks volumes.

Run Away Little Boy

 

Luke's snippiness with Lorelai bugs me. I know the show wants us to feel bad for him that she's dating again but if he likes her so much why not ask her out? I felt the same way when he saw her with Max. He seems happy to bide his time watching from afar but as soon as another guy shows up, he cops an attitude as if he's entitled to her or something. I do like that she basically friend zoned him, it gives answers to why she isn't willing to go there yet.

Interesting that the latter bugs you yet Christopher leading Lorelai on, knowing she is interested and even letting her kiss him before telling her he has a girlfriend doesn't bother you at all. Not only does he screw with Lorelai here but he basically cheats on his girlfriend. He knew she was going to kiss him and didn't stop her. And that doesn't even bug you a little?

Edited by Smad
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Also everyone complains about Luke not just asking her out when it's obvious he's jealous whenever he sees her with another guy but no one says the same about Lorelai. Lorelai constantly gets jealous when she sees Luke with another woman and is always snippy about it.

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On 26.4.2016 at 0:50 PM, elang4 said:

Also everyone complains about Luke not just asking her out when it's obvious he's jealous whenever he sees her with another guy but no one says the same about Lorelai. Lorelai constantly gets jealous when she sees Luke with another woman and is always snippy about it.

It's not jealousy. It's Lorelai's giant sense of entitlement. She feels she's entitled to know everything that goes on in his life while it's ok for her to keep things secret from him. Her tantrums in S4 in regards to Nicole while she doesn't tell Luke anything about Jason are the perfect example of this. The major downside of this entitlement is always that she never considers his feelings when she does this which makes her one crappy friend sometimes. Like the episode where Luke tells her they put the divorce on hold and all she can talk about how weird she finds it and if she finds it weird everyone else will. Or when he 'moves in' with Nicole it's all about how it messes things up for her. Would it kill her to ask him if he actually thinks it would be good for him or anything approaching concern for a friend about said friend's decisions?

Edited by Smad
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On April 25, 2016 at 4:45 PM, chessiegal said:

I agree Jess acted appropriately for his situation, but I didn't like the character. Later when I saw interviews with him, I decided he wasn't acting for the part of Jess. MV just comes across as a punk to me that I'd like to swipe the smirk off his face.

Wow, harsh. I think it is unfair to attack an actor when you don't know him, regardless of the impression. Anytime I've seen him interviewed he seems very nice and what I've read of his meeting with fans, they love him and always mention his kindness and sincere attitude. 

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2 hours ago, Smad said:

It's not jealousy. It's Lorelai's giant sense of entitlement. She feels she's entitled to know everything that goes on in his life while it's ok for her to keep things secret from him. Her tantrums in S4 in regards to Nicole while she doesn't tell Luke anything about Jason are the perfect example of this. The major downside of this entitlement is always that she never considers his feelings when she does this which makes her one crappy friend sometimes. Like the episode where Luke tells her they put the divorce on hold and all she can talk about how weird she finds it and if she finds it weird everyone else will. Or when he 'moves in' with Nicole it's all about how it messes things up for her. Would it kill her to ask him if he actually thinks it would be good for him or anything approaching concern for a friend about said friend's decisions?

This is one of the main reasons why I frequently don't like Lorelai, and she never makes my list of best TV moms, daughters, friends, girlfriends, etc. Her reactions are so often "all about Lorelai" and not about the topic at hand. There are so many creepy or near-creepy moments, from her attachment to Dean to Wedding Bell Blues, when she's standing there with Christopher and Luke right after she confessed her unmentioned encounters with him to Luke. Luke is processing, Christopher is trying to rub it in, and Lorelai's response is to call attention to her body with a question about her dress. 

Would it have killed her to tell Dean to deal with Rory directly? Or to take Luke's arm, say something about the drunks being obnoxious early tonight and let's go find Aunt Totsy? ;)

GG513-00752.jpg

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Please remember to take any series wide discussion of a character to either a thread devoted to that character or the "All Seasons" thread.  Thank you!

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To make amends for my part of the off-season distraction, I'll comment on the Ins and Outs of Inns.

i found it to be consistently funny, from the opening where Emily offers Lorelai a mirror to continue her conversation, to Jess interactions, Luke's Trekkie days, and the Rory painting. The town meeting about Jess, the fake murder scene, and Mrs. Lanahan driving business away from Doose's. Bootsy in his hippie shirt. The list goes on and on. 

"We were both rolling on the ball, then you jumped off the ball, ..." Funny, even though it leads to a direct confrontation between the future dragonfly business partners. 

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Lorelai is truly her most atrocious during the latter half of Teach Me Tonight. I hate the trope of "cause a scene at the hospital where my loved one is", and both Lorelai and Emily abuse the crap out of it. I understand Lorelai was upset, but by this point she's already spoken to Rory and knows she's ok. So, after berating the nurse, she sees her daughter, badgers the doctor into doing more X-rays, then the self-appointed #1 Mom leaves her daughter at the hospital alone so she can hunt down and berate Jess, but settles for using Luke as an emotional punching bag. And then has the gall to get upset with him when he prioritizes his missing 17 yo nephew who was just in a car wreck over listening to her abuse him. 

Also, he swerved to avoid hitting an animal. He wasn't drunk or distracted. And the insidious thing they were doing? Eating ice cream. Boy oh boy was that kid dangerous. 

The worst for me though, was her sleeping in Rory's room after the whole thing was over. Such an "All About Lorelai" moment. Rory had the tiniest of fractures and was otherwise perfectly fine. Plus, she's fine leaving Rory alone at the hospital but now can't bear to be away from her? Ok. 

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I don't see the quote button on posts, maybe it's not visible on mobile? 

I know we've already discussed Jess' behavior on another thread, or earlier on this one, but I don't know how one could introduce Jess any other way than the way he was introduced. He was basically kicked out of his mother's house and sent to live with an uncle he barely knew in a town he had no choice to be in. He was angry and with, IMO, Lorelai's condescending lecture kind of pushed him over the edge. 

I thought he was very rude. If a kid came into my home, stole a beer and talked to me like that I would be mad. But that's me. I am sorry if I am rehashing an old discussion. 

Lorelai's perpetually 16 years old. I think she acts like a big sister to Rory's friends. She gives Lane, Dean, and later Paris pretty good advice when they come to her with problems. That tactic doesn't work with Jess, he's too angry and doesn't want a friendship with her. Maybe the big sister/cool mom thing doesn't work with Jess because of his own mother issues. 

Interesting that the latter bugs you yet Christopher leading Lorelai on, knowing she is interested and even letting her kiss him before telling her he has a girlfriend doesn't bother you at all. Not only does he screw with Lorelai here but he basically cheats on his girlfriend. He knew she was going to kiss him and didn't stop her. And that doesn't even bug you a little?

Nope, it doesn't bother me a bit. They are always pretty flirty with each other even when they are in separate relationship(s). Lorelai does a similar thing to Chris in a future episode. I think it was hard for him to tell her because of their history. The last time Lorelai saw him, he proposed and she turned him down. Then got engaged to Max a few months later and called Chris from her bachelorette party to not only inform him but also I think hope he would talk her out of it. And he knows her so well that he knew exactly what she was playing at. 

When she kissed him in this episode and made an overture for him to sleep over more was when he put the brakes on. I think he enjoyed her flirting with him, just like I think she likes his interest in her. Of course my opinion is coloured by the fact that I love both characters and their flirty banter with each other. 

Lorelai constantly gets jealous when she sees Luke with another woman and is always snippy about it.

   

It's so juvenile lol but I would expect nothing else from Lorelai. I am of the belief (unpopular, I know) that she should have hooked up with Luke in the early seasons and got it out of both their systems. But clearly the show wanted it to go in a different direction. I do think at this point she likes having him as a back-up and acts out if someone threatens that. She is very entitled but people keep letting her get away with it. 

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Run Away Little Boy

This is one of the best Chilton episodes. Paris is perfect, Tristan is both snarky and empathetic, and Madeleine and Louise have never been better. 

I loved Lane's look, especially the white turtleneck, but am sad for her stupidity with respect to Henry.

Rory's angst over telling Dean about kissing Tristan is good, and shows that she's trying to respect his feelings. 

It was ironically amusing that when Lorelai was playing Dean to talk to Rory, and at the end she turns the conversation to "all about Lorelai/Dean" as she asks how cool his hair is. 

It was sweet how Dean calms down after Rory tells him, with the strangled by a Doose's apron bit. 

When it comes to Luke and Lorelai, I found it either naive or stupid of her to love the chuppah but not acknowledge that was a huge sign of his affection for her, yet gets offended when he derides her date choice. Not even when Sookie for the nth time reminds her.

She did, however, at least firmly shove Luke into the friends slot in the last scene when she named the "not many" people really in her life. Luke, Sookie, Rory and the other NINE THOUSAND residents of Stars Hollow.

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6 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Nope, it doesn't bother me a bit. They are always pretty flirty with each other even when they are in separate relationship(s). Lorelai does a similar thing to Chris in a future episode. I think it was hard for him to tell her because of their history. The last time Lorelai saw him, he proposed and she turned him down. Then got engaged to Max a few months later and called Chris from her bachelorette party to not only inform him but also I think hope he would talk her out of it. And he knows her so well that he knew exactly what she was playing at. 

When she kissed him in this episode and made an overture for him to sleep over more was when he put the brakes on. I think he enjoyed her flirting with him, just like I think she likes his interest in her. Of course my opinion is coloured by the fact that I love both characters and their flirty banter with each other. 

So emotional and physical infidelity is cool with you. Gotcha. That's certainly a different perspective. I guess I just don't find the lack of boundaries in L/C a good thing because it's so juvenile and does neither of them any good.

Quote

It's so juvenile lol but I would expect nothing else from Lorelai. I am of the belief (unpopular, I know) that she should have hooked up with Luke in the early seasons and got it out of both their systems. But clearly the show wanted it to go in a different direction. I do think at this point she likes having him as a back-up and acts out if someone threatens that. She is very entitled but people keep letting her get away with it. 

Why would Lorelai have Luke as a back-up when it's been shown that she consciously doesn't entertain the thought of him as a possible romantic partner? Not to mention that several times she does things that could sever even their friendship, like in Teach Me Tonight. If anyone is her constant back-up it's Chris which is supported by the fact that she never takes him to task for the crap he pulls. Best way to keep your safety net going is to never permanently sever ties by taking them to task.

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About season two....  Interestingly, it was season two that really go me hooked on Gilmore Girls.  A friend had let me borrow season one on DVD (shortly after GG went off the air) and it was my first exposure to the show.  I enjoyed it, but was rather ambivalent about whether I should also borrow season 2 from her.  So funny now with GG being my favorite show ever.  I can't imagine why season one didn't have me totally hooked.  I think Jess and an expanded role for Luke did it....but not sure.  Season two is also just really good!

 

Nick & Nora/Sid & Nancy - Jess comes to town!  I was hooked from the moment Luke dropped Frosted Flakes on the sidewalk.  Love the storyline for Luke...and Rory, of course.   Oh and every time I have a Danish I quote Rory's, "Danish day...the happiest of all days" ...not sure why I love that so.  

Presenting Lorelai Gilmore - had a blah reaction when I saw this was next.  (Too much Christopher?)  But I liked it better than I remembered.  I thought Lorelai's teasing about what makes a lady was cute and Rory's lifting her pinky while eating her cheeseburger was a memorable moment from that episode.  Plus, Christopher gets a pretty good trashing when the girls discuss how likely he is to show up.  

Like Mother, Like Daughter - oh, so much fun in this episode!  The runway, the puffs, headmaster Charleston is as great as always...love the scene with Lorelai in his office.  

The Ins and Outs of Inns - Mia's casting was maybe not my favorite choice. Can't put my finger on why.   I found her bit with Michel confusing and annoying.  But nice to finally "meet" her, I guess.  I liked Lorelai's mixed feelings about her job at the independence in possibly coming to an end.  

Run Away Little Boy - Luke jokes are my favorite part of this episode.  Good stuff. Guess Tristan needed to leave....there's a new bad boy in Rory's life now!  Plus, who ever heard of a love square?

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Like Mother, Like Daughter - oh, so much fun in this episode!  The runway, the puffs, headmaster Charleston is as great as always...love the scene with Lorelai in his office.  

The Ins and Outs of Inns - Mia's casting was maybe not my favorite choice. Can't put my finger on why.   I found her bit with Michel confusing and annoying.  But nice to finally "meet" her, I guess.  I liked Lorelai's mixed feelings about her job at the independence in possibly coming to an end.  

Run Away Little Boy - Luke jokes are my favorite part of this episode.  Good stuff. Guess Tristan needed to leave....there's a new bad boy in Rory's life now!  Plus, who ever heard of a love square?

 

Like Mother, Like Daughter is fun for me too. But it isn't even the Rory stuff. it's all about Lorelai and Emily strutting down the runway. The fact that Luke has a huge smile on his face and whistles at the end cracks me up every time. Plus, the fact that Lorelai is jealous and Luke knows she's jealous. Shoe is on the other foot.

I never quite understood why Mia was teasing Michel either. Seemed odd. But I did enjoy her calling Luke, Lucas and her lovingly teasing him.

It's funny but Run Away Little Boy is one of my least favorite episodes and I know many people love it. I just never got past my dislike for Tristan. I wanted to smack him when he dropped the flour on the floor in the grocery store. I know Dean can be possessive and he needed to back the truck up with his behavior but in that instance I wouldn't have faulted him for punching Tristan. The part I do like and can watch over and over is the "I don't have many people in my life" speech. It was just so sweet.

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I never quite understood why Mia was teasing Michel either. 

Mia is such an odd character. Like, she's mostly fine but then there are moments in the episode I catch myself thinking I'm not reacting to her quite like I'm probably supposed to. The teasing of Michel, for instance. I never though that was funny at all. I just end up feeling sorry for him because the scene runs for too long. And it's just the kind of teasing that borders on the side of mean to me, since it made him feel self-conscious about his (perfectly understandable even for a non native) English.

I just felt like I was meeting someone who clearly means the world to a friend for a very good reasons I can totally understand, but personally left me feeling kind of meh.

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