S02.E04: Penny And Dime

[The Crazed Spruce]

Karen uncovers shocking facts about the Punisher, who finds himself hunted by a powerful force in Hell's Kitchen. Daredevil ponders his next moves.

[pootlus]

Two thoughts from this episode:

 

Did the dog live?

 

Jon Bernthal's near-monologue towards the end was awesome.  I was bawling like a baby at the end.

 

Oh and they kinda spoiled Elektra's first showing by having Elodie Yung's name in the credits.

[Bec]

Haha, I wondered about the dog too. And yes, that was a hell of a monologue.

 

Good thing I don't notice things like credits. Though I kind of figured Electra's going to show up next now that Punisher is down for the count (at least for now), and now that Matt and Karen is starting to be a thing. Not sure how I feel about him starting a thing with Karen while still keeping her in the dark about Daredevil. (And she's keeping him in the dark about her killing Wesley.) But I guess Matt was going to quit being Daredevil and get on with having a more or less normal life? Was that what his talk with Brett at the cemetery meant? And is that why Foggy was so happy?

 

I can see the show laying the groundwork for Matt and Karen in the previous episodes... but still not feeling it yet. Feels like the show should have held out on it longer. Don't really want to see things get all awkward juggling Karen and Electra. At least Claire stuck to her guns and doesn't want back in.

 

Also, Karen sure was very excited about Matt touching her on the arm, it was kind of unintentionally hilarious.

[Boundary]

Episodes like this are why this is Netflix's best show. That monologue is Emmy worthy, not only for it's own worth but also because it was juxtaposed with Karen sneaking around Frank's house and also the sheer violence and force of anger shown in this and previous episodes. Illuminate that monologue like that and it was glorious.

 

BTW, maybe it was only me but that rain soaked scene was hot. I've never seen a sexier rain drop. It also doesn't hurt that when Deborah puts on the seductive face most knees will get weak.

[Dandesun]

Full on ugly cry, guys. Seriously, I was a wreck. I haven't cried like that since Saving Mr Banks which unleashed an angry honey badger into my soul.

Damn.

[VCRTracking]

I teared up too during the graveyard scene. Jon Bernthal was incredible.

Edited March 19, 2016 by VCRTracking

[FurryFury]

Me too. Trope-wise, such a cliche, but the writing and performance were top-notch.

 

I seriously want a Punisher show.

[Mars477]

Me too. Trope-wise, such a cliche, but the writing and performance were top-notch.

I seriously want a Punisher show.

Nah, use him like spice.

And we don't need another male led Marvel show on Netflix.

[FurryFury]

No argument on that. But I'd definitely take the Punisher over Luke Cage (who's been really boring on JJ) or Iron Fist. Great casting.

[peach]

Me too. Trope-wise, such a cliche, but the writing and performance were top-notch.

 

I seriously want a Punisher show.

I think the strength and power of Jon Bernthal's acting is what saves it from being cliche.  I can't imagine anyone else with such presence, that can carry such intense, terrifying brutality, yet genuinely bring such vulnerability to a character.  Truly amazing.   Even when he just sat quietly, looking at the carousel. 

His portrayal of Shane on TWD was unforgettable, and I'm enjoying seeing JB back on TV again.  I just discovered this series last night, because my kid is home on spring break.  He's utterly delighted that "someone finally got The Punisher right."

[Ottis]

They need to make Daredevil more interesting as a character, tie him into something contemporary maybe. The villains in season 1 and now season 2 are both far more interesting than DD.They have better backstories and more fascinating motivations.

 

Daredevil is already kind of the superhero Bernie Sanders. maybe take it down that route, complete with, "Yes, great idea, but given reality, how do you think that's going to actually be successful?"

 

The Punisher opened that door a little. Brett's comment at the end, "I don't know what you are, but you aren't him" was a fine line. The book is still open on DD and his methods. Let's see more on what Matt thinks he will actually achieve?

 

And we don't need another male led Marvel show on Netflix.

 

 

I will take as many hi-quality Marvel shows on Netflix as they can create, regardless of the sex of the hero (or antihero). 

[FurryFury]

You know, I tend to dislike most male leads in comic book shows, so I'm glad that at least I don't dislike Matt. True, he's not especially fascinating, but at least he doesn't make me want to smack him (like Oliver or Barry, at times) or bore me to death (like Coulson or that dude from Gotham - although, admittedly, I dropped the last one fairly early).

[Bec]

Charlie Cox brings an adorableness to the character that makes it hard to stay mad at him.

[Danny Franks]

He's still a murdering psychopath. Just like Fisk was occasionally sympathetic last season, but was still a terrible human being. Like Matt said, losing someone doesn't give you an excuse to kill people. Please let's not make excuses for him just because he's got a tragic past. But man, enough with the torture, please. The stuff with the drill had me covering my eyes. I'm such a squeamish wimp.

Though I have to say, that monologue was the best example of why Netflix is better. No network would let them get away with what must have been a five minute scene of just one guy talking in the dark.

Although, the guy casually blowing Irish mobsters away with a shotgun really reminded me of Sterling Archer going on a rampage over his fake chemo drugs. Heh.

Oh and hey, the Irish tough who first spoke to Frank at the carousel was in The Pacific, playing one of Sgt. John Basilone's buddies. The other one was played by Jon Bernthal. Good to see Tony Curran too, who is a total HITG.

Brett bitching Matt out for disrespecting the role of police and making them look weak was interesting. It would carry more weight if all the other cops in season 1 weren't utterly corrupt. Interesting to see Matt take that onboard though, and talk Brett into taking the credit on behalf of the police.

Karen is completely head over heels for Matt. I kind of feel bad for her, because I feel like Matt is stringing her along, even if he doesn't realise himself that he's doing it. But man, can Deborah Ann Woll turn on the sexy! She was stunning in that scene. Someone should tell her that it's okay to play hard to get.

Also, hi Elektra.

[JustaPerson]

Holy shit, he exploded that guy's face! Though I pretty much ok with Frank killing them once they threatened the dog. Damn, but that monologue was incredible. 

 

I thought that I wanted a slower burn toward a Matt/Karen thing, but that scene in the rain actually really worked for me. But Elektra's entrance at the end was perfection. 

 

I think most of the time the hero will be the less interesting one in contrast to the villains, but MM is miles ahead of Oliver or even Barry. I'm just as interested in him as I am with them. Charlie Cox helps, too.

Edited March 19, 2016 by JustaPerson

[Racj82]

Nah, use him like spice.

And we don't need another male led Marvel show on Netflix.

We could just look at them like shows at not focus on the gender or race of the lead. I mean, that's how I look at it anyway. If they can make a great show, make it.

Just like Karen or Claire being seen as great female characters in the marvel world. They are just great characters.

After this episode, I hope some Emmy consideration comes this shows wat for real.

[FurryFury]

We could just look at them like shows at not focus on the gender or race of the lead. I mean, that's how I look at it anyway. If they can make a great show, make it.

 

I'd agree with you normally, but the lack of female heroes is just too obvious. I mean, just look at the big screen stuff, 2 female Avengers vs how many males? It's too much. 

 

That said, I've seen two more episodes, and I definitely want a Punisher show. At this point I care way more about him than about Matt.

[WendyCR72]

But as these shows are based on comics - and many from the 40s and 50s as source material - I think it's just a given there are more male superheroes, hence the times the material emerged. By today's standards, sure, it's sexist.

 

But different times, different contexts. So if Netflix can make more quality shows, I don't care if the lead is male or female, as long as it entertains me.

[Mars477]

We could just look at them like shows at not focus on the gender or race of the lead. I mean, that's how I look at it anyway. If they can make a great show, make it.

After this episode, I hope some Emmy consideration comes this shows wat for real.

This is the kind of thing that's only said to justify why so many series/movies are male led. "I don't care what the gender of the protagonist is, as long as it's good!" Which is why we not only have Thor, but two sequels for Thor.

Back to the episode at hand, I have to assume that whoever came up with Matt and Karen's kiss in the rain has never been caught outside in a New York City downpour.

[FurryFury]

But as these shows are based on comics - and many from the 40s and 50s as source material - I think it's just a given there are more male superheroes, hence the times the material emerged. By today's standards, sure, it's sexist.

 

Which is why I think we should fight it. I mean, at least make it a more even ratio of supporting players. Like JJ did with Hogarth and her wife and lover. Otherwise, it's really annoying and kinda offensive (I'm not the one to throw this term lightly). Why did Neflix use that Iron Fist dude? Is he really that well-known? (I'm not even touching the race issue, I'm not the one to talk about it). Why couldn't it have been a female character, really?

 

This is the kind of thing that's only said to justify why so many series/movies are male led. "I don't care what the gender of the protagonist is, as long as it's good!" Which is why we not only have Thor, but two sequels for Thor.

 

Thor actually is the best of solo-MCU titles when it comes to active female characters. It has boring Jane (the worst MCU love interest, but still active), Sif, Frigga and Darcy. Two of three Iron Man movies only have Pepper. Cap 1 only has Peggy (although she's awesome enough to overshadow this problem, yes). Haven't watched Hulk, but I've only heard of Betty Ross from it. Etc, etc.

Edited March 19, 2016 by FurryFury

[peach]

Although, the guy casually blowing Irish mobsters away with a shotgun really reminded me of Sterling Archer going on a rampage over his fake chemo drugs. Heh.

 

 

Haha!  You're not alone.  Ram-paaaage!

[peach]

That said, I've seen two more episodes, and I definitely want a Punisher show. At this point I care way more about him than about Matt.

 

I care about his story more than Matt's, too.  But I also agree with the comment about spice.  I'll be happy if they keep Punisher as half of this show.

[Racj82]

This is the kind of thing that's only said to justify why so many series/movies are male led. "I don't care what the gender of the protagonist is, as long as it's good!" Which is why we not only have Thor, but two sequels for Thor.

Back to the episode at hand, I have to assume that whoever came up with Matt and Karen's kiss in the rain has never been caught outside in a New York City downpour.

No I say that because constantly segregating things as a female this, a black that are doing a disservice to the characters and the stories at hand. I, personally, care about character. And if you make a great character, that's what should matter the most, IMO. But, I don't want to derail this thread.

This season proves why always prefer non origin stories. You can hit the grown running and also just live in the world without the constant world building. Not saying origin stories can't be great. Just talking about preference.

[Kel Varnsen]

I'd agree with you normally, but the lack of female heroes is just too obvious. I mean, just look at the big screen stuff, 2 female Avengers vs how many males? It's too much.

That seems logical to me though, since if you look at society in general, your jobs and pastimes that are more dangerous are usually male dominated (military people, deep sea fishing, MMA fighters). So why wouldn't the Avengers or the Defenders be the same way?

Back to this episode though, I am wondering if Elektra's ninja skills is what made it so that Matt didn't detect her in his place right away. Or was it because he was a little drunk and distracted by just making out with Karen?

[Kel Varnsen]

But as these shows are based on comics - and many from the 40s and 50s as source material - I think it's just a given there are more male superheroes, hence the times the material emerged. By today's standards, sure, it's sexist.

Actually I am pretty sure the only main MCU characters whose creations, in comics, predate the 1960's are Cap, Bucky and Trish Walker.

[WendyCR72]

Actually I am pretty sure the only main MCU characters whose creations, in comics, predate the 1960's are Cap, Bucky and Trish Walker.

 

Seems we're both right! Per Wiki, yeah. The Marvel Comics Daredevil debuted in 1964. However, there was a comic series with a superhero of sorts (not Marvel) also known as Daredevil in the 1930s/1940s. Probably where the confusion set in.

 

Makes me wonder how Marvel was able to claim that moniker!

[Bec]

I can’t help but think Foggy wasn’t totally lying about Matt having a drinking problem when the first thing he does after coming home from a night of drinking is drink some more. Heh.

 

I am wondering if Elektra's ninja skills is what made it so that Matt didn't detect her in his place right away. Or was it because he was a little drunk and distracted by just making out with Karen?

All of the above?

 

Karen is completely head over heels for Matt. I kind of feel bad for her, because I feel like Matt is stringing her along, even if he doesn't realise himself that he's doing it.

Yeah, it just doesn’t feel right. She is someone he claims to care about, not some random date, but apparently he doesn’t care enough to let her know he’s Daredevil.

 

And she’s keeping at least one huge secret, too (that she shot Wesley).

 

They can’t really be themselves around each other right now, unless that changes, this is gonna keep feeling sort of awkward.

[peach]

I can’t help but think Foggy wasn’t totally lying about Matt having a drinking problem when the first thing he does after coming home from a night of drinking is drink some more. Heh.

 

Heck, they're all almost always drinking.

[Racj82]

I can’t help but think Foggy wasn’t totally lying about Matt having a drinking problem when the first thing he does after coming home from a night of drinking is drink some more. Heh.

 

 

 

All of the above?

 

 

 

Yeah, it just doesn’t feel right. She is someone he claims to care about, not some random date, but apparently he doesn’t care enough to let her know he’s Daredevil.

 

And she’s keeping at least one huge secret, too (that she shot Wesley).

 

They can’t really be themselves around each other right now, unless that changes, this is gonna keep feeling sort of awkward.

I don't understand this logic. He is not stringing her along. He's in to her. Him not saying his big secret doesn't negate that. He's not leading her on.

 

The actually issue is that him being Daredevil is a obvious wedge that will hurt them later. But, it still doesn't mean he's leading her on or that he's not into this relationship.

[Danny Franks]

I don't understand this logic. He is not stringing her along. He's in to her. Him not saying his big secret doesn't negate that. He's not leading her on.

 

 

Unfortunately, they haven't convinced me that Matt is truly into her. There hasn't been enough of them together, with the right energy coming from him. He's too reserved and closed off. Which is fine because it's his character, but it doesn't lend itself to me believing his interest in Karen is particularly deep or earned. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the idea of them as a couple, and I think they're bringing it with the chemistry, but I think the writers need to put some more work into his end of things.

 

The disparity comes from her just being so interested in him, from the first episode onwards. And I feel sad that she's surely going to end up getting hurt. Because as Foggy alluded to, Matt isn't a guy who will really let himself be happy. And that's without the sexy ninja from his past turning up again.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Danny Franks

[thuganomics85]

I was wondering when Elektra was finally going to show up!  Really curious to see how this version is doing to turn out, especially with Elodie Yung.  I thought she showed impressive enough fighting skills in the G.I. Joe movie, and she the best thing about the silly Gods of Egypt movie, so I'm really curious to see how she fares in something that is actually good.  Of course, I still laughed over how, of course, she turns up right when Matt and Karen kiss.  A total trope, even though I don't mind it too much this time.

 

Had no idea Tony Curran was going to show up here.  Looks like he was one and gone, unless Finn can somehow survive a shotgun shell to the face, but he made the most of the screen time.  But he was probably doomed as soon as threaten the dog.  Even if this show is willing to do darker then most Marvel stuff, threatening a dog or any animal, will probably doom you.  I'm just glad it was only a threat, because I thought he was going to shoot it when they first found Frank's apartment, and the story was going to be Frank taking a page out of the John Wick playbook.  Which would scare the absolute crap out of me.

 

Not surprised they are keeping with the whole "Frank lost his family" storyline, although it sounds like there is way more to this between Frank demanding Finn tell him who else was involved, and Karen suspecting Reyes and finding out a bunch of mysterious suit people tried to pull the plug on Frank.  Plus, breaking into his house and that van showing up.  What has she gotten herself into?!  No surprise, Jon Bernthal was amazing in that monologue scene.  He really is the perfect Punisher.

 

I don't mind Matt/Karen because I do enjoy Charlie Cox and Deborah Ann Woll's chemistry, but it is going to feel kind of shady if Matt doesn't tell her he's Daredevil soon.  Of course, with Elektra crashing the party, I'm sure any advancement on that front is probably going to be rough.

 

Even though it was really Matt who got him, I'm glad Brett got the credit.  Yay, Brett!

 

Nice to see Peter McRobbie's priest character again.

 

Probably my favorite episode so far.

[driedfruit]

Fantastic episode all around. Such effective storytelling with Karen uncovering Frank's history in a visual way before we got his side of the story. Holy, great performance. I'd watch the hell out of a Punisher spinoff.  

 

The Irish mob head, or Van Gogh to me as a Doctor Who fan, was infectiously gleeful, I'm almost disappointed he's gone.

 

Karen is so great, it's like Matt is only bit by bit discovering it. Though he'd know sooner if he wasn't quite so self-involved.

 

Unfortunately, they haven't convinced me that Matt is truly into her. There hasn't been enough of them together, with the right energy coming from him. He's too reserved and closed off. Which is fine because it's his character, but it doesn't lend itself to me believing his interest in Karen is particularly deep or earned. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the idea of them as a couple, but I think the writers need to put some more work into his end of things.

 

The disparity comes from her just being so interested in him, from the first episode onwards. And I feel sad that she's surely going to end up getting hurt. Because as Foggy alluded to, Matt isn't a guy who will really let himself be happy. And that's without the sexy ninja from his past turning up again.

 

I don't find the disparity is an issue, it's unrealistic that two people have to be on the same page immediately. Matt was always attracted to her and he's now starting to clue in on how great she is...which causes him to pay more attention to her and, as a result, beginning to fall for her. The story is fine so far, though obviously with Elektra in town things will be getting messy. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by driedfruit

[blugirlami21]

I really liked the punisher's backstory.  Jon Bernthal really sold it.  The show seems somehow more gory this year than last even though we had that car door beheading...maybe I've just been away from it so long I can't remember how gory it's always been.  

 

I have to say that I am disappointed that they are moving forward with the Karen and Matt romance.  I've never felt any real chemistry on his end and I still don't feel it now tbh.  I agree that Karen has been very thirsty for Matt since season one and it was obvious to all that he wasn't interested in her in that way.  I was really hoping that she would either grow out of it or that she would go out with Foggy, which seemed like the better pairing in my opinion.  I wonder what changed on Matt and Foggy's parts?  Foggy was clearly very interested in Karen last season as well and I see none of that this season.

 

There is a disparity when a superhero does not let their love interest in on the secret.  I've seen it time and time again on the Flash, Arrow, Psych, etc.  Towards the end you're straight up lying to their face ninety-nine percent of the time and the longer you wait to let them in the worst the fallout is going to be.  If he's truly interested in Karen romantically he needs to tell her he's daredevil.  Period.  She's only going to keep digging and potentially get herself or someone else killed.

[Danny Franks]

I really liked the punisher's backstory.  Jon Bernthal really sold it.  The show seems somehow more gory this year than last even though we had that car door beheading...maybe I've just been away from it so long I can't remember how gory it's always been.  

 

I have to say that I am disappointed that they are moving forward with the Karen and Matt romance.  I've never felt any real chemistry on his end and I still don't feel it now tbh.  I agree that Karen has been very thirsty for Matt since season one and it was obvious to all that he wasn't interested in her in that way.  I was really hoping that she would either grow out of it or that she would go out with Foggy, which seemed like the better pairing in my opinion.  I wonder what changed on Matt and Foggy's parts?  Foggy was clearly very interested in Karen last season as well and I see none of that this season.

 

Episodes 3 and 4 of season 1 were very bloody. 3 had the bowling alley fight, complete with snapping arms and a head caved in, then had the guy impale his own head on an iron spike (in a moment I still can't watch without covering my eyes). And 4 had, as you mention, the car door scene. After them, I seem to recall the violence being more toned down. It may end up being the same this season too. I hope so because, frankly, I don't need to see overt and gory violence all the time to believe the stakes are real.

 

And I think Foggy dropped his interest in Karen in episode 6, City on Fire, when Karen asked him to essentially pretend to be Matt and touch her face. He realised she was more into Matt than him, and let it go. I don't think we saw him showing any interest in her after that point. To me, Foggy and Karen developed a very platonic friendship in the latter half of season 1, and while I think Matt/Karen is uneven, it convinces me more than Foggy/Karen would.

[freesia]

I have to say that I am disappointed that they are moving forward with the Karen and Matt romance.  I've never felt any real chemistry on his end and I still don't feel it now tbh.  I agree that Karen has been very thirsty for Matt since season one and it was obvious to all that he wasn't interested in her in that way.  I was really hoping that she would either grow out of it or that she would go out with Foggy, which seemed like the better pairing in my opinion.  I wonder what changed on Matt and Foggy's parts?  Foggy was clearly very interested in Karen last season as well and I see none of that this season.

Me too. I still blame Karen for indirectly causing Ben Urich's death last season by incessantly pushing him to investigate dangerous leads. And the fact that she crossed a line that even Daredevil has been unwilling to cross by shooting Wesley and doesn't seem the least bit bothered by it. So, I'll admit I've got a bit of a bias against this character since the end of last season. This pairing feels so awkward and unbalanced. Plus, law firm partner dating his office assistant? In most offices, that's ethically shady.

Now, for things I loved about this episode? That scene in the cemetery with the Punisher was amazing and utterly heartbreaking. I definitely got the feels watching that.

[Danny Franks]

Me too. I still blame Karen for indirectly causing Ben Urich's death last season by incessantly pushing him to investigate dangerous leads. And the fact that she crossed a line that even Daredevil has been unwilling to cross by shooting Wesley and doesn't seem the least bit bothered by it.

 

Well Ben's own wife said that Ben never did anything he didn't want to do. The only thing I think Karen did wrong was taking him to Fisk's mother's retirement home without telling him what it was. Everything else, Ben did of his own accord because he had a passion for discovering and telling the truth.

 

And she seems incredibly bothered by the fact she killed Wesley, to me. Both last season and this season, she's seemed tortured by it. Even though Wesley was a creep who was about to kill her. I don't fault Karen at all for shooting him, or for her reaction to it.

[tennisgurl]

I do not blame Karen for killing Wesley. It was him or her, and yeah, she made a lot of bad choices to get there, but I cannot blame her for shooting him, even though I was sad to lose Wesley (not a good guy at all, but a really good character). Karen was also extremely bothered by it. Just a few episodes ago, she wondered if the Punisher would have the cause to kill her. It does not seem like its scared her for life, but she clearly feels guilty about ending a human life. As for Matt/Karen? I am open to it, even though I liked her and Foggy better (honestly, Karen and Foggy AND Foggy and Matt have more chemistry than Karen/Matt). I did like the rain scene, so I will wait and see where they go with this.

 

I find all the stuff with the Irish gangsters kind of funny, considering the first time I saw Charlie Cox was in Boardwalk Empire, playing an Irish gangster.  

 

Also, WHERE IS THE DOG?!?!

[Bec]

Yeah, Karen is still very much haunted by that time she shot Wesley. It’s what’s driving her to do her damnest to see people like Grotto and Frank as redeemable. Because she sees herself as one of them. I really appreciate that the show didn’t drop it and it’s a part of Karen’s character development now.

 

I don't understand this logic. He is not stringing her along. He's in to her. Him not saying his big secret doesn't negate that. He's not leading her on.

The actually issue is that him being Daredevil is a obvious wedge that will hurt them later. But, it still doesn't mean he's leading her on or that he's not into this relationship.

Okay, I buy that Matt’s attracted to Karen, but I don’t get why he’s not telling her he’s Daredevil. Has he learned nothing from Foggy finding out (Foggy still kind of resents that Matt didn’t tell him, and Foggy has wanted to let Karen in on it ever since he found out)? It’s not like she’s a stranger Matt just met. What’s he waiting for? He trusts her, doesn’t he?

 

Seems like before starting a romantic relationship with her would be the time to tell her. This affects her whether she knows or not.

 

Maybe he just doesn’t want to think about how to have that conversation right now. Maybe he doesn’t want her to nag him the way Foggy does (IMO she wouldn’t. Hee!) But I don’t think there’s any good reason not to tell her. It’s shitty for Karen. I like Karen as an individual character, so I feel bad for her because I think she would not be happy about being kept in the dark like this. He should know her well enough to know that she is very much not the “ignorance is bliss” type.

 

Of course if he tells her next episode, then I’ll be like “nevermind”. Hee.

[Yokosmom]

Seems like before starting a romantic relationship with her would be the time to tell her. This affects her whether she knows or not.

 

I totally disagree. They are interested in each other. They are not actually dating (yet). They've known each other for what, 6 months or so? (not sure of show's timeline). If they start to get serious, then he can drop the bombshell.  He is a criminal, he's breaking the law, and this isn't a secret that he can just confess to just anyone.  Not to mention that knowing the secret puts her in danger. (Of course, not knowing puts her in some danger too--it's a fine line.) If she had known him for years, then I can see him telling her.

[peach]

Okay, I buy that Matt’s attracted to Karen, but I don’t get why he’s not telling her he’s Daredevil. Has he learned nothing from Foggy finding out (Foggy still kind of resents that Matt didn’t tell him, and Foggy has wanted to let Karen in on it ever since he found out)? It’s not like she’s a stranger Matt just met. What’s he waiting for? He trusts her, doesn’t he?.

 

Plus Foggy is the one stuck having to lie to Karen FOR Matt.

[Danny Franks]

Maybe he just doesn’t want to think about how to have that conversation right now. Maybe he doesn’t want her to nag him the way Foggy does (IMO she wouldn’t. Hee!) But I don’t think there’s any good reason not to tell her. It’s shitty for Karen. I like Karen as an individual character, so I feel bad for her because I think she would not be happy about being kept in the dark like this. He should know her well enough to know that she is very much not the “ignorance is bliss” type.

 

Nearly all the time with superhero secret identities, I think it boils down to this. It's easier not to tell her. It's easier to hide it and lie than it is to try to explain it all and hope the person doesn't freak out. Forget all that, 'I have to keep her safe' nonsense, it's just so much bloody easier to not have the conversation.

 

And I think that's absolutely where Matt is right now. He remembers how close he came to losing Foggy's friendship, he remembers all the hurt that was caused, and he just doesn't want to deal with that again with someone else. Even if, logically, he can know that not telling her will end up causing even more hurt when she finally finds out... well that moment hasn't come yet.

[FurryFury]

It's a bit easier for me to forgive Matt for not telling Karen right away because he already lost on a relationship with Claire last season because she learned who he was. It's not as infuriating as Barry/Iris... yet.

Edited March 20, 2016 by FurryFury

[Bec]

Part of the reason I find Matt and Claire so much more palatable was that she knew who he was going in. Obviously not every relationship can start the way theirs did, though. I guess we had to see at least one relationship where Matt is hiding who he is. It's not a superhero show without it. Hopefully the show gets this out of its system soon enough and doesn't overdo it to the point of it becoming incredibly annoying. At this point I'm questioning it but is still okay with going along with it to see where it goes.

[Chaos Theory]

Electra show up was obvious once Foggy made the joke about Matt being happy because Matt's not allowed to be happy.

I liked the Punishers back story and monolougue and I enjoyed seeing Daredevil sit there and listen to him tell it and when the police came his reasoning for letting them have the collar made sense (even though it let him get away in the process the reasoning still made sense).

[tennisgurl]

 

It's not as infuriating as Barry/Iris... yet.

Oh Barry/Iris. I think Barry's pizza delivery guy knew he was The Flash before poor Iris did. I really like The Flash, but their handling of Barry's secret identity is not one of their finest moments. He alternately wont tell people when he clearly should, or just tells every random person he sees. At least Matt is consistent about not wanting to tell people about his identity.  

[Adusk81]

In my humble opinion I have to say that this show is the best Marvel anything ever put to screen. My opinion of course. It's just so rich and well done. It's dark, heart wrenching, beautiful. This episode was my favorite so far from both seasons. The scene in the rain was masterful. The only efforts that come close to touching this show, again for my taste, are Jessica Jones, iron man 1 and winter soldier. What a great time to be a Marvel fan.

[Actionmage]

Seems the question is: Did Matt go back for that poor dog? Bad enough that the poor kid was made to fight/get fought, but Matt should have gone back after posing on that archway and taken that dog to a shelter or rescue/rehab group.

 

John Bernthal needs some bling for his mantle just on the strength of this episode. Well, and his face after the pawn shop owner kept talking.

 

My favorite avocado-at-law, Foggy: did you get the papers filed in time? If so, then he's yet another super-hero I can get behind! Senor Avocado! Trust me, I'm a lawyer! 

 

I hope that the gory parts are finished. Like others have stated, I tolerate those scenes- muted and mostly hidden from my eyes- to get to everything else I enjoy about the show. I love Tony Curran, but if that drill had moved any closer, I may have had to swear off the show. Kids and animals, Show. Don't go there.

 

Karen had better play it smarter if she is going to be sneaking around the suburbs. In some neighborhoods, they actually watch out for each other, so do it smarter, not harder.  I guess the timeline for Frank was really shortened?  It was months after his loss, yet the interior was relatively well-kept and functional. (I saw you, flashing green light!)  Hopefully, Claire will be his nurse, criticize his sewing, give him tips for future reference, and then roll to the next patient  that needs her.

 

I think that Netflix coming up with Original Specials for Frank might be a better situation for everyone. JB is so perfect for this role- he really just owned it- but also seemingly in tons of stuff already. Specials are like one-shot comics, short, but with a complete story. That way a) we get to see JB's Frank Castle, b) it's not even a series, so basically a movie shooting commitment, and c) he will be free to do other things and be able to drop in for specials and guest pop-ups/cameos.

 

I was worried about that dog since Episode 1; I missed the name, or was there one mentioned?

 

Why did Neflix use that Iron Fist dude? Is he really that well-known?

 

 

Netflix is gathering an iteration of The Defenders, not unlike how Marvel laid the groundwork for The Avengers..Luke Cage and Iron Fist, two of Netflix's team, have been a team in comics before, as well as street-level crime fighters. That is why they are being used with Daredevil and Jessica Jones.  I am hoping that if those two shows are successful, we will get Daughters of the Dragon, a team of women who are also street-level crime fighters.  Iron Fist has been around for around forty-two years, has led roughly 6 titles and co-lead roughly 4.   

[Dandesun]

I don't know that they ever named the dog but Frank has had a dog named Max in the comics so I think this one was a full on shout out to that. And I believe that Frank and Probably!Max reunited somehow. Frank doesn't strike me as the type to just forget.

 

And I hope he's the first in Frank Castle's Home for Abused Dogs Who Deserve a Second Chance (see Season 2 thread.)

 

I would love to see the Daughters of the Dragon as well. Misty Knight will be in Luke Cage's series. I hope Colleen Wing shows up in Iron Fist, too. And between the four of the Defenders, Matt, Jessica, Luke and Danny, they do interact quite a bit within their stories. I'll be honest, I'd love to see them take on The Devil in Cell Block D storyline after they bring all the Defenders together.

[VCRTracking]

Why did Neflix use that Iron Fist dude? Is he really that well-known?

 

 

Iron Fist was also the first time writer Chris Claremont and artist John Byrne worked together before their classic work on Uncanny X-Men. Their run of Iron Fist in the mid 70s lasted 15 issues before it was cancelled and the character was then teamed up with Luke Cage.

[FurryFury]

I'm not a comic reader, yet I've heard about Jessica and Luke and of course Daredevil and Punisher before, but never about Iron Fist, plus I'm really iffy on the casting, which is why I'm kinda skeptical about his show.