S02.E14: There's My Baby

[secnarf]

Is there trouble in paradise for Oliver & Conner???  Another out of the blue story development.  I can understand Conner being concerned for Oliver's safety but that little speech he gave Laurel was just weird.  And Oliver quitting his job and quoting Annalise (and a possible job) is just so unlike him!  He's suppose the reasonable, grounded one.  This is just a haphazard life choice for him it just doesn't seem right.

Well, Oliver has made poor life choices before - such as hooking up with that random guy (how he got HIV). He might be reasonable some of the time, but it also wouldn't be the first time he's made an impulsive/questionable decision. I can see him wanting to carpe diem a bit more - Connor rubbing off on him, or him thinking that he needs to be more exciting or someone like Connor will get bored with him.

 

Loved that the Spanish wasn't subtitled.

I do too, but I would also like a translation if anyone has one!

 

I figure Papa Maloney isn't Wes's father, but his grandfather. With his racism, I just don't see him having any kind of relationship with Rose, and assume part of his dislike stems from anger that his son did. (Annalise accused him, but he neither confirmed nor denied it.) Not sure if that means the sex between Maloney Jr. and Rose was consensual or not. I'd guess it was, because if she was willing to go to such extremes to not lie for them, I can't see her taking a pittance of a handout and working for them as a cleaner if she'd been raped. And then Maloney Sr. probably treated her badly in the wake of her pregnancy, hence her hatred and fear.

Millions of racist white people have raped black women, from slavery to present day.

It actually makes a lot of sense if you think about her rant to Annalise right before she died. "I was born free, and I will stay free, and so will Christophe". She feels that if she testifies, Mahoney will own her even more than he already does.

As for her not wanting to "take a pittance of a handout and work for them if she'd been raped", she didn't see any other choice. I highly doubt she wanted to, but she's in the US illegally, so she can't easily find work, and after working for him for so long already, she probably knew he is capable of violence if she tries to leave or tell anyone what happened. He might have even outright threatened her and/or Christophe.

I'm not saying it's impossible that Charles is Wes' father instead - I could see them going for that as a last-minute twist - but imo Wallace raping Rose repeatedly and being Wes' father makes a lot of sense.

[pennben]

Kudos to Viola once again. It's unusual -- groundbreaking maybe? -- that the lead character of a broadcast network show is so thoroughly unpleasant. And not in a sexy, anti-hero, I'm not here to make friends way. But someone who lashes out so vindictively and effectively that you can't help but assume that everyone in their life is a victim of some kind of Stockholm Syndrome. She just goes for it, and it's amazing to watch.

 

While I may quibble with you about Viola not being sexy (and you likely didn't mean it that way), here's her speech about not understanding the need for her character to be likeable at this year's SAG awards.  She's right there with you and is awesome in talking about the anomaly of her not being likeable and how she just loves what she is doing. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by pennben

[possibilities]

I think Mahoney (or is it Maloney?) is played by Adam Arkin (not Alan Arkin).

Edited March 12, 2016 by possibilities

[secnarf]

I think Mahoney (or is it Maloney?) is played by Adam Arkin (not Alan Arkin).

Yep it's Adam Arkin who plays Mahoney (not Maloney), at least, according to IMDB.

[Dowel Jones]

In addition to all the postings, I would like to hand it to the hospital nurse who actually followed procedure in giving out information about a patient.  I'm looking at you, Code Black, Grey's Anatomy, Night Shift, et. al.

[secnarf]

In addition to all the postings, I would like to hand it to the hospital nurse who actually followed procedure in giving out information about a patient.  I'm looking at you, Code Black, Grey's Anatomy, Night Shift, et. al.

See, I actually thought it was weird that she wouldn't give any information, although it might be a case of Canadian and American laws differing. Here, hospitals are allowed to give out very basic information on the patient's condition (e.g. stable, critical condition, etc.) to anybody who asks, unless the patient explicitly says not to, and that's really all Eve was asking for. Is that not allowed in the US?

[rubyred]

While I may quibble with you about Viola not being sexy (and you likely didn't mean it that way), here's her speech about not understanding the need for her character to be likeable at this year's SAG awards.  She's right there with you and is awesome in talking about the anomaly of her not being likeable and how she just loves what she is doing. 

You're right, I didn't mean "sexy" that way; it wasn't in reference to Viola or Annalise being conventionally sexy, it was in reference to the trope of the sexy anti-hero/likeable asshole.

 

And as far as unlikeable goes -- I deliberately said "unpleasant", not unlikeable, because that whole likeability factor is, IMO, yet another narrative crutch that can ruin the organic narrative of a show. I don't even think of Annalise in terms of how likeable she is, probably because she has already dismissed that as a concern herself. She has an intelligence and a charisma that draws people to her. But she's also incredibly nasty when she feels wounded and I admire that Viola makes no effort to curry sympathy in her performances, it's just an unvarnished portrayal of damage, and damage begetting damage. This show is batshit on so many levels it would be easy to overlook the significance of Annalise as a character even if it weren't Viola Davis playing her.

[Dowel Jones]

I do too, but I would also like a translation if anyone has one!

 

I went back and rewatched after reading your post, and, (with the help of Spanish CC) found that Laurel was basically repeating what the DA was saying.  He did say that "These people will turn on you at the first opportunity", to which she replied "Now he's trying to turn us against Annalise.", or close to it.  The last thing she said to him as a retort was something like "But, because you prefer to open a case for which you have no result.", which I took was idiomatic for "You got nothing, go ahead and go for it."

 

Other opinions are welcome, thanks.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Dowel Jones

[helenamonster]

Agreed that this has to be Viola's Emmy episode. I think we've all seen women lose babies on TV numerous times, but she still managed to make it fresh and powerful. I too suspect that the Mahoneys orchestrated the crash.

 

Laurel telling Annalise about Frank was awesome, I'm glad they didn't save that for the finale. And I also like that Bonnie figured out pretty quickly that it was Sam, not Annalise, who ordered Lila's murder. And yes, Ophelia is back! Can't wait to see Cicely and Viola spark off each other again, the episode she was in last season was my favorite.

 

I loved seeing the usually tightly-wound Michaela let loose on the dance floor. Aja looked like she was having a blast.

 

Why on God's green earth would Oliver want to work for Annalise? Hasn't he seen what working for her has done to Connor? He's obviously way in the dark but he's starting to get that there's some serious shit going on in that house.

 

I both love and hate that Frank's idea of sexy talk is, "Have you ever been to Fishtown?"

 

Fetus Bonnie is adorable, though seeing her in a therapist/patient capacity with Sam gives me the heebie jeebies. I feel like something not great happened there. Maybe we'll find out next week that in his grief over losing his son (and potentially anger at Annalise for being in Ohio in the first place) he attempts to initiate something with Bonnie and Annalise walks in on it. That would explain why Annalise has such disdain for Bonnie and yet Bonnie feels slavishly devoted to her. Just a prediction, I'm unspoiled.

 

I love Eve. No real explanation to that, I just do. Idk what her schedule is like but I'd love for Famke Janssen to be bumped up to the main cast next season.

 

Also, since I just finished binge-watching all seven seasons of Sons of Anarchy, I love how this show currently features three actors (Billy Brown, Adam Arkin, Benito Martinez) who played antagonists on that show. Though I guess Martinez's character wasn't so much an antagonist as one who made things complicated for the main characters, but still.

[wanderingstar]

Just re-watched last night's episode. I'm almost certain that Phillip wasn't trying to harm Annalise, but was instead trying to tell her something (maybe that Caleb is the one stalking them?)

 

Looking forward to the reactions of the rest of the K5 to the Masher hookup.

 

ETA:

 

I'm loving Adam Arkin and loving to hate his Wallace Mahoney.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[Milaxx]

I think Mahoney (or is it Maloney?) is played by Adam Arkin (not Alan Arkin).

 

Adam Arkin also played a bad guy on Justified.

...

 

Why on God's green earth would Oliver want to work for Annalise? Hasn't he seen what working for her has done to Connor? He's obviously way in the dark but he's starting to get that there's some serious shit going on in that house.

 

...

He really hasn't because Connor always covers it up. "I have a drug problem." ,"I was exaggerating." Poor Oliver has no clue. This was proven by Laurel's little test. Notice how he immediately freaked out and said they should call the cops. Once again Michaela and Connor calmed him down and downplayed what the K5 had done. The reason why he keeps talking about going to work for Annalise is because he still finds what he thinks they do exciting and titillating.

[pennben]

Just re-watched last night's episode. I'm almost certain that Phillip wasn't trying to harm Annalise, but was instead trying to tell her something (maybe that Caleb is the one stalking them?)

 

Well, you could be correct in your conclusion, but I'm going to have to give Phillip a big ole failing grade for trying to get his point across.  I can see how Annalise didn't see him breaking into an apartment of her student and trying to grab her up and beat her up once she was there as an "I'm here to help you" moment!!:)  I guess, until there's a flashback.....who knows...

Edited March 12, 2016 by pennben

[Fredward]

I know this was Annalise's sympathy time (I especially liked how they switched between her apologising to Wes and her dead baby, it highlighted that she was sorry about both and how her relationship with Wes kinda embodies both) but I felt soooooo bad for Eve. She's always been there and she always winds up being second fiddle. And she has been a better option than both men, Sam cuz I mean obviously, Nate's fine but Eve's better. The way she had to awkwardly hover in the hospital and be dismissed by Sam as just some whoever work acquaintance offering token sympathy and THEN be slapped the fuck down by that 'Nate will make sure I'm okay' comment... ouch.

 

At the same time she occasionally gives me vibes of potential psycho. I dunno, something about those 'I don't spend all my time waiting for you' when she clearly does triggers some red lights.

[33kaitykaity]

The make-up department isn't good enough on this show to de-age Viola and Famke ten years each.  They're both fabulous and wonderful as 50-year-olds, but the flashbacks aren't working for me.  The real ages of these women take me out-of-scene every time.  

[Grace19]

Just give viola davis the emmy again, great acting. I just love anna and eva. Michaela/asher (micasher is better, hate masher) could be beautiful if treated right, their characters differ alot that they could work as a couple in the long run, thats why I crack-shipped them before. Besides the actors but have chemistry, i think any paring between the k5 will have chemistry because the actors are friends off the set. Next week will be great.

[Babalu]

I don't think younger Frank's hook-up was shown to us for no reason. I think Sam either arranged it or found out about it, and there's something about it (I can't figure out what) that would be so incriminating for Frank that he would even be willing to murder Lila rather than have it revealed. Not that Frank hasn't done other skeevy things - planted and stolen evidence, lied, etc., but I don't know that he had actually murdered anybody in the past. If he had, I'd guess that Annaliese and/or Bonnie would have known - or at least suspected - and therefore would have suspected him when Lila was killed, as well. I hope we find out next week.

[darkestboy]

That was brilliant. Best episode of the second half of this season.

 

What happened to Annalise's baby was devastating and Viola played those scenes brilliantly as did Tom Verica as Sam.

 

I liked the brief meeting of Sam/Eve in flashbacks, the Annalise/Frank and Sam/Bonnie scenes. The flashbacks have been interesting to watch these last few episodes.

 

Wes knowing the truth about his mother's death and his real father definitely opens up more story possibilities as well.

 

I don't know who's worse drunk - Annalise or Laurel. Both had their moment.

 

Some nice Connor/Oliver in this episode too. The Asher/Michaela hook up was more random than shocking.

 

Frank/Bonnie calling each other out on their killing was nice.

 

I get the feeling there's more to Caleb being missing than meets the eye too, 9/10

[wanderingstar]

Well, you could be correct in your conclusion, but I'm going to have to give Phillip a big ole failing grade for trying to get his point across.  I can see how Annalise didn't see him breaking into an apartment of her student and trying to grab her up and beat her up once she was there as an "I'm here to help you" moment!!:)  I guess, until there's a flashback.....who knows...

 

Yeah - there are probably better ways to convey one's point. I just think that knowing how these writers love red herrings and twists, that whole scene was meant to throw us off. They've been driving home the Phillip-is-a-menace thing so much these past few episodes, I have to think there's more to it.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[krimimimi]

Welp, I suspected I had phrased something poorly when I saw four people had quoted my post. Sorry, if I stepped on any toes. Suboptimally expressed, for sure. Note to self: avoid push button topics like rape and racism (and especially both) if not awake enough to do it justice. Ouch. That was a particularly unfortunate conflation on my part, and I'm just thankful that at least nobody seems to think I confuse protracted abuse with a romantic relationship. (So I guess it could have been worse. Oy vey.)

 

On the up side, I don't think I disagreed with any objections people raised, so I think we're on the same page there. (No need to take me out back and shoot me just yet, folks.) If it needs explicit stating: I am absolutely positive racism is not infrequently a component in rape, and (keeping it atypically short) that racism can manifest itself in a whole range of vile behaviors.

 

That acknowledged, I am definitely not trying to discuss either rape or racism in general, but a specific example, and worse yet: about fictional characters.

 

Short version: I don't think Rose (as depicted - this is not a judgment of other people (real or imagined) in her position) would stick around to get raped repeatedly. (And I phrase it that way, because I think that's how she'd see it.) In show, Mahoney Sr. neither confirmed nor denied raping Rose and/or fathering Wes, and I suspect he didn't do either, mostly for reasons of drama. If they aren't wrapping up this storyline right here and now, I just don't think he'll have actually done it. If he's of any relation to Wes, I can picture it as grandfather/grandson. I think Annalise, with her own past as a victim of long term sexual abuse, is more biased to use that context to explain "hinkiness" - as in why a clearly loving mother like Rose would kill herself and orphan her child.

 

Consider that Annalise's mind went straight to an extended abuse scenario, that her own therapy was probably (seriously) compromised by her relationship with Sam, and that with with Bonnie and Annalise we already have two rape survivors in this story. I think that makes it less likely they are going for yet another rape SL (the fourth if we count Trotter Lake). Those are all my reads (imho, ymmv) on the characters based on what we've seen of them so far, viewed through the lens of the rules of drama. (Remember, this is a work of fiction.) What makes that even more problematic is that Rose and Mahoney are basically thumbnail sketches of characters, and Annalise (in many respects) is a cypher.

 

It seems all (or maybe "all") Rose had to do to "solve" her problem was take the stand, possibly lying in the process. I'm not sure if the (possible) lying or being the person to free Mahoney Jr. was the issue for her here, or that we are supposed to be able to answer that at this point. Instead, she was willing to make herself and Wes homeless and without income and didn't even hesitate to take her own life when she felt it was the thing she needed to do to not testify. (Stop and consider that for a moment - how many people wouldn't rather commit perjury, if that's what it was, than lose their homes and livelihoods, never mind their lives?) Whatever else is going on here, this is a decisive woman of incredibly strong convictions, for good or ill, for whom suicide is evidently a valid choice. That doesn't mesh, for me, with the behavior of someone who would accept a situation in which she was raped repeatedly at least as recently as about a decade ago, particularly for the sake of a cleaner's job. Not without loads of (improbable) therapy. Once again, not judging anyone else, just trying to make sense of what we've been shown here.

 

As to Mahoney Sr., he feels like the kind of jerk who likes people most like himself, and has increasing levels of disdain for all deviations from his personal image of "perfection." So rich white male of whatever religion is splendid, and the rest of the universe is increasingly rubbish, like poor black female Rose. But I also read Mahoney foremost as a pragmatist, in as much as he was willing to hire Annalise if he felt that would likely lead to success. Not trying to dispute his racism, I'd just bet it goes further than that to include sexism and classism (and more), but that these ultimately aren't permitted to manifest in ways that might be inopportune for him. I bet he has to win, above all else.

 

Where I could picture those two types intersecting, in particular with their shared animosity, is via Mahoney Jr., and he needn't have fathered Wes to provide that junction in their stories. Basically, a scenario where Jr. wrongs Rose, whatever it was isn't likely to ever reoccur (I think that's very important for her character (ymmv)), his father feels forced to make some kind of deal with her to cover it up, leaving both Sr. and Rose extremely dissatisfied (with themselves and each other) in its wake.

 

That could range as far as Jr. on vacation in Haiti driving drunk and accidentally killing Wes' father, followed by Sr. offering to sponsor Rose's move to the states. Some mitigating circumstance will be necessary for Rose to bend (like if Jr. wasn't sober, or Wes' dad ran into the street to save baby Wes), and Sr.'s machinations here could provided Rose with the knowledge of how far his reach extends, what (and whom) money can buy, and the fear we've seen. But that's probably spec for next year.

 

Anyway, I thought the reasoning was solid enough, and the probabilities good. Eager to see how it actually unfolds.

 

Besides for all the twist and turns this show likes to throw at it's viewers the answer to the mysteries are almost always pretty straight forward. When Lila was discovered murdered, the first words out of Annalise's mouth was "I bet the boyfriend did it." Convulsed as the answer was, it was indeed the boyfriend (Sam via Frank).

 

This is an excellent point. It's pretty much the only thing that makes me wonder about my Mahoney / Rose theory.

 

Ultimately, when the Lila/Frank reveal came, a lot of people were surprised, and I think for many viewers what stuck was "Frank killed Lila." So much so, that regularly somebody or another here (various people) reminds others that Sam ordered it, because that part sort of fades (in part, no doubt, because Sam's dead). Which is why a scenario where Jr. raped Rose suddenly becomes more likely than it would otherwise. Annalise may have good cynical instincts, but they aren't necessarily enough to get it quite right. (She hadn't even known about Lila and Sam, for instance.)

[secnarf]

Rose strikes me as someone who will do anything to protect her son, including remaining in a position where she is being raped/abused.

It's not uncommon for abused mothers to say that the main reason they have kept quiet about the abuse is to protect their kids, and that they can "take it" because it means their kids are safe.

From what we have seen of Rose, protecting Christophe is the driving factor behind most of the decisions she makes.

 

I suspect that Rose was unwilling to lie on the stand because she felt it was dangerous to give Mahoney any more control over their lives, but that's just a theory. I'm not sure we're supposed to know at this point, either.

[jhlipton]

I've known several people who've had stillborn children and the one thing they all say is how compassionate the staff was. That nurse was intrusive and it really took me out of the scene. The devastation of Sam and Annalise was so raw. 

 

Yeah, that may be the procedure, but it just mae off as rude.

 

One my FB friends had a still-born baby.  She has a tattoo of his name and send out birthday messages on FB every year,  I don't know if she has a photo or other memento of him, or even if those are things they do in England.

 

Just re-watched last night's episode. I'm almost certain that Phillip wasn't trying to harm Annalise, but was instead trying to tell her something (maybe that Caleb is the one stalking them?)

 

That was my thought as well, but he messed it up in the worst way.

[breezy424]

We don't know if Rose was raped or abused by Mahoney.  She never said that.  Anna assumed that.  And because Rose never said that, the story may turn out to be much more complicated.  It will be interesting to see what happens with Mahoney and Wes down the road.

[Neurochick]

We don't know if Rose was raped or abused by Mahoney.  She never said that.  Anna assumed that.  And because Rose never said that, the story may turn out to be much more complicated.  It will be interesting to see what happens with Mahoney and Wes down the road.

 

This is true.  The thing that keeps bugging me is that if Mahoney Sr raped Rose and fathered Wes, why were they still there?  I mean why not give Rose a big fat check and say, get the fuck out of here? Maybe Wes isn't Mahoney Sr's son but Mahoney Jr's.

[secnarf]

This is true.  The thing that keeps bugging me is that if Mahoney Sr raped Rose and fathered Wes, why were they still there?  I mean why not give Rose a big fat check and say, get the fuck out of here? Maybe Wes isn't Mahoney Sr's son but Mahoney Jr's.

Imo, it would make more sense for Wallace to give Rose a payout and send her away if it was Charles who raped her, rather than if it was Wallace himself.

Wallace strikes me as a person who relishes having control over others, and it makes sense he would want to keep Rose around if Annalise was right and Wallace was repeatedly raping her. I can see how a person like Wallace would want to keep Rose close where he can keep an eye on her and Christophe, so that Rose never feels like Christophe is quite safe from the Mahoneys, and therefore will keep quiet.

[PrincessTT]

One my FB friends had a still-born baby.  She has a tattoo of his name and send out birthday messages on FB every year,  I don't know if she has a photo or other memento of him, or even if those are things they do in England.

 

I had a stillborn baby 2 years ago here in the UK, I have pictures of my daughter as well as her handprints and footprints.

[Happytobehere]

I think Annalise will kill Wes' father if she finds out he was responsible for the accident that caused her to lose her baby; Wes will find the dead body and will cover for Annalise since she's been covering for him since day one.

I doubt anyone, especially not Annalise believes the accident was an actual accident. Aside from the initial shock when the hit occurred, I immediately thought Adam Arkin arranged for it after the confrontation.

[Happytobehere]

Yep it's Adam Arkin who plays Mahoney (not Maloney), at least, according to IMDB.

Alan Arkin is an actor I best remember from The In-Laws with Peter Falk and The Russians are Coming, The Russians are coming. He is Adam's father, so the confusion rests in the similar first names because they can't be mistaken otherwise.

[breezy424]

Maybe someone can explain another thing I don't understand.  What was the reason for Anna's 'chance' meeting with Rose at the playground?  If Wallace threatened Rose to testify, why was Anna at the playground?  Did I miss something (and I readily admit, I can miss a lot on this show).  I don't remember Anna insinuating to  Rose she should to testify until much later.  What was the point?

 

It seems that the general assumption is that Wallace used Rose but I think it also possible that the son may have been with Rose (we don't know his age at this point).  It also seems to be assumed that Rose was raped and abused but there are other possibilities.  Maybe Rose and the son had a romantic involvement that the senior Wallace shut down.  Maybe he had a romantic involvement with Rose.  We really don't know anything about Rose except that she was an illegal.  There's so many twists that this story could take.  Unfortunately, knowing Shonda, it's going to be about the bad white guy.  Sorry, but that's pretty much been my experience with her shows.

Edited March 14, 2016 by breezy424

[Kira53]

Maybe someone can explain another thing I don't understand.  What was the reason for Anna's 'chance' meeting with Rose at the playground?  If Wallace threatened Rose to testify, why was Anna at the playground?  Did I miss something (and I readily admit, I can miss a lot on this show).  I don't remember Anna insinuating to  Rose she should to testify until much later.  What was the point?

 

It seems that the general assumption is that Wallace used Rose but I think it also possible that the son may have been with Rose (we don't know his age at this point).  It also seems to be assumed that Rose was raped and abused but there are other possibilities.  Maybe Rose and the son had a romantic involvement that the senior Wallace shut down.  Maybe he had a romantic involvement with Rose.  We really don't know anything about Rose except that she was an illegal.  There's so many twists that this story could take.  Unfortunately, knowing Shonda, it's going to be about the bad white guy.  Sorry, but that's pretty much been my experience with her shows.

AK met Rose at the playground to bond with her and win Rose's trust. AK pregnancy was a bonus in disarming Rose and allowing Rose to make a new friend quickly. Mothers trust mothers. It was just another of AK's manipulations/maneuvers to win a case. HTGAWM is the goal of much of what is does.

It not Shonda show, she is just executive producer. It is Peter Novack's show. Blame him for the bad white guy

[breezy424]

AK met Rose at the playground to bond with her and win Rose's trust. AK pregnancy was a bonus in disarming Rose and allowing Rose to make a new friend quickly. Mothers trust mothers. It was just another of AK's manipulations/maneuvers to win a case. HTGAWM is the goal of much of what is does.

It not Shonda show, she is just executive producer. It is Peter Novack's show. Blame him for the bad white guy

If she has the title of executive producer, she does, in fact, have a say.  And if she agrees to that title, then she agrees to take 'blame'.

[pennben]

We really don't know anything about Rose except that she was an illegal.

 

We know that she loved her son. We know she could be happy watching her son play basketball and full of pride talking about him. We know she was happy to meet a new friend for coffee until that new friend happened to be Annalise (whoops). We know that she was pressured to commit perjury by a "legal". We know that "legals" threatened her to make her believe she would be deported and separated from her son if she didn't say what they told her to say, even though the "legals" knew that would be perjury. We know that she made a bad choice, but her final moment was meant by her to be an ultimate sacrifice to protect her son. We know that before she bled out on the floor of her apartment, she asked Annalise to take care of her son (whoops). We know at the end of her life she was absolutely terrified.

 

I think we know a hell of a lot more about her than that she was just "an illegal". Honestly.

Edited March 14, 2016 by pennben

[secnarf]

Maybe someone can explain another thing I don't understand.  What was the reason for Anna's 'chance' meeting with Rose at the playground?  If Wallace threatened Rose to testify, why was Anna at the playground?  Did I miss something (and I readily admit, I can miss a lot on this show).  I don't remember Anna insinuating to  Rose she should to testify until much later.  What was the point?

 

It seems that the general assumption is that Wallace used Rose but I think it also possible that the son may have been with Rose (we don't know his age at this point).  It also seems to be assumed that Rose was raped and abused but there are other possibilities.  Maybe Rose and the son had a romantic involvement that the senior Wallace shut down.  Maybe he had a romantic involvement with Rose.  We really don't know anything about Rose except that she was an illegal.  There's so many twists that this story could take.  Unfortunately, knowing Shonda, it's going to be about the bad white guy.  Sorry, but that's pretty much been my experience with her shows.

The reasoning for the playground scene wasn't explicitly stated, but I think it seems reasonable to infer that Annalise was trying to build some sort of relationship with Rose before trying to get her to testify, so that Rose wouldn't see her as the "enemy" right off the bat.

 

We do know the son's (approximate) age, we have met him. The actor who plays him is 32, but I got the impression the character was supposed to be closer to  mid-20's.

 

I'm not convinced Wallace raped Rose, but I do think it makes a lot of sense and on any other show I probably wouldn't be thinking twice about it. I would be very surprised (and disappointed) if Rose had a consensual relationship with either of the Mahoneys, though. We know quite a bit about her character, if not her biography, and that doesn't quite fit with what we know of her, or of the Mahoneys.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Why Does How To Get Away With Murder Think Flashbacks Are So Exciting?
The show looks back, but it has stopped moving forward.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Maybe someone can explain another thing I don't understand.  What was the reason for Anna's 'chance' meeting with Rose at the playground?  If Wallace threatened Rose to testify, why was Anna at the playground?  Did I miss something (and I readily admit, I can miss a lot on this show).  I don't remember Anna insinuating to  Rose she should to testify until much later.  What was the point?

 

It seems that the general assumption is that Wallace used Rose but I think it also possible that the son may have been with Rose (we don't know his age at this point).  It also seems to be assumed that Rose was raped and abused but there are other possibilities.  Maybe Rose and the son had a romantic involvement that the senior Wallace shut down.  Maybe he had a romantic involvement with Rose.  We really don't know anything about Rose except that she was an illegal.  There's so many twists that this story could take.  Unfortunately, knowing Shonda, it's going to be about the bad white guy.  Sorry, but that's pretty much been my experience with her shows.

In defense of Shonda:

 

Grey's Anatomy and Private Practice have not had bad guys, per se, of any color.

 

On Scandal, Papa Pope, the apex predator, is black. Most of the people on the show, despite their so-called white hats, are bad. Even though Fitz and Jake are objectively bad, or have done numerous bad things, the show clearly wants us to think of them as more than an entitled man-child and a ruthless killer. The closest the show comes to an unequivocal good guy is David Rosen, who is white.

 

On Murder, literally every single main character has done evil things, with the possible exception of Oliver. 

 

She is pretty much equal opportunity when it comes to her villains.

[represent]

 

Unfortunately, knowing Shonda, it's going to be about the bad white guy.  Sorry, but that's pretty much been my experience with her shows.

I didn't think that Shonda had that much to do creatively with this show. I thought it was Peter Nowalk. I thought this was his creative vision, which explains why I like it so much and don't roll my eyes the way I did through watching Greys Anatomy for a decade. I stayed cause I watched for one character, when Yang left I was gone, she set me free. Scandal, I think I've watched less than five full episodes. Because these two shows have Shonda all over them through and through. No way is she all over HTGAWM, no way. 

 

And on this show EVERYBODY is bad which is why Bonnie's "We're all bad people." line was hilarious. Whether you arebad because you're a racist or you are bad because you're a straight up murderer, murder being the worse of the two IMO, you're just bad. The only one who isn't bad I think is Oliver. But black white and in between seem to all be pretty bad on this show.

Edited March 14, 2016 by represent

[Chicago Redshirt]

I should say that by "Murder" standards, Oliver should be up for canonization. He is a decent person who is generally supportive of others.

 

But he has broken the law multiple times, hacking stuff for Anni, and is now interested in making that his full-time gig. As much as Connor has vaguely warned him that Anni is bad news (even going so far as to entertain transferring to Stanford to get away from her isht), Oliver hasn't listened to him. 

 

And while Oliver is saying the right things now about calling in the police, I am afraid that it is only a matter of time before he does something insanely stupid and becomes a murder victim, an accomplice to murder or an actual murderer if he hangs around the Keating Law Firm for long enough.

[breezy424]

I think that my point was misconstrued or I could have been clearer about the bad 'white' guy.  It was about racism, not because only white guys are bad.  Most of all of the HTGAWM characters are bad guys.  And yes, there are bad guys of all colors on many of other shows Shonda has been a part of. 

[rubyred]

Reading here that the (somewhat) universal assumption is that Mahoney raped Rose, I now believe that that's not the (full) story. This show likes to zag rather than zig. And Annalise saying it doesn't make it true. Mahoney is clearly a bad guy but repeated rapes and indentured servitude -- to me it now seems too obvious, there will be a twist to this story. I don't think he didn't deny it because it's true, I think he didn't deny it because the writers don't know yet.

 

One thing I remember about Rose is Wes telling whatsername that his mother was troubled. Didn't he imply that she had depression or a mental disorder? I cling to that because I can't see any other reason why she thought stabbing herself was a good choice. I get the argument about abuse victims snapping but the Rose we saw had channeled pretty much all her energy into making a home for Wes so it's hard for me to believe that he wouldn't have been uppermost in her thoughts before grabbing that steak knife and shivving herself.

[LydiaMoon1]

IA that this story is just beginning to unfold, and I'm also not sold that Mahoney, Sr. fathered Wes. I'm still keeping Mahoney, Jr. in the mix.  I mean, Rose wasn't desperate to avoid testifying on his behalf for no reason.  Maybe he was her tormentor and she killed herself because she couldn't bear the thought of him coming back into her life. Yeah, we've seen Junior in a favorable light so far, I doubt that's his true demeanor. After all, he's the progeny two very unpleasant parents..... and he has a dead fiance.

 

Overall, I liked this episode, except for Michaela/Asher.  That was ridiculous. These writers must have previously written for soaps, because I haven't seen a setup that cringeworthy since they had Kendall on All My Children go from grieving to horny to hookup in less than ten seconds  It was stupid then too.

 

[l star]

I read the recap before I watched this ep. That was definitely a mistake since I actually liked it.

I am surprised they never mentioned the baby's name. Combined with Annalise calling him 'it' to Eve last week, and they kept the vein of unease around the palpable grief wonderfully.

I miss Asher and Bonnie. They were so cute, but yikes with Michaela and Asher.

Me too. I think that's a combination of missing the bit of goofy sweetness and genuine connection they brought to this group and being totally unnerved by Asher and Mikayla. I like Frank and Laurel more apart and Wes/Laurel are a shrug, but Mikayla actively dislikes Asher and for real reasons. And while I know Asher sees a girl and his eyes cross, he doesn't exactly have a lot he likes about Mikayla either. If this was supposed to be just a drunken fun time they could cringe about later, okay. But the preview suggests otherwise unfortunately.

Then again, maybe this and Wes/Laurel are finally going to send Frank and Bonnie off the hellfire deep end. That could be fun.

  

A couple of things made me laugh out loud last night.  First, when Annalise is kicking everyone out of her house, she looks up and sees that Oliver is there and her expression and exasperation, "what is this, a homeless shelter!?" killed me.  Second, Bonnie to Frank "we can't let Annalise know"; immediate jump cut to scene with Laurel letting Annalise know!

 

And thank god for Bonnie being smart enough to figure out Frank's reason for killing Lila was Sam, not Annalise, I was furious when he wasn't clearing it up with her, just as he let it go unchecked with Laurel (which clearly was a huge mistake).

My favorite part was Connor's big wide eyes. Considering the flip flops she was doing on them I would be scared too. Same for not wanting Annalise to find out about Sam. In her current mindset, that's just selfpreservation. I would also add Bonnie's quote about being bad people to this list. I loved it not only because she kind of slapped them in the face with it, but also because of the ending with that is all we have in common. That is really so very true. If Wes had not drug them all into Rebecca's case followed by the four killing Sam, things would be so different.

That's a huge reason why Asher's apology stuck out so sharply to me, and I think pissed Bonnie off so much. Thank you's and acknowledgement for being protected from him are so far beyond the point at this stage. Yet he seems to honestly believe that he is the guilty problem at the center of all this. I honestly think he would walk in and take the blame for all this if Annalise or Bonnie told him it would help. And I think the rest of them would let him which is probably why I still don't feel much for any of them.

I'm surprised the k5 haven't paid more attention to what Bonnie knows. She also figured out who killed Sam and that Annalise wasn't favoring Wes, she was protecting him. And she's the only one who knows that Annalise was hallucinating her dead baby. Now if only she wasn't so easy for Annalise to shut down, she'd really be a volatile component to all this.

I miss the family vibe from a couple of episodes ago. I don't understand why that all of a sudden disappeared. Frank cooking and playing house, Bonnie handling everybody including Annalise, Laurel babysitting Wes while Connor babysat Asher. I feel like something semi functional turned into these forced sleepovers in hell for no reason.

Though I was really surprised Frank went straight to threats with Bonnie. He had to know there was a better way, and she didn't even seem that phased by it. I think the point of the bar pickup in the flashback was to show how reckless he is so maybe all this with Laurel and his handling of it is supposed to echo that.

  

I appreciated Asher's apology. He can be a complete ass sometimes, but that is the most gratitude and self awareness any of the K5 have shown so far, I think. If their sense of entitlement bugs me so much, I have to acknowledge Asher in that scene. Changes nothing, but still.

  

I think most of the K5 are caught up in knowing they did something bad, but excusing their guilt under the twin guises of I only did it because of them and it would be better for me to protect them than send everyone to jail.

I forgot that Lilah was pregnant. Disturbing indeed.  

 

I loved the interrogation scene with the Keating 4. They all handled it remarkably well.

After this, it makes me think she was dead the minute she refused the abortion.

I was more annoyed by all the k5 in the interrogations. I kept waiting for one of them to slip up just enough for Denver to call them out and remind them they are first year law students, not lawyers. They were just so cocky and aggressive. Though it also seemed like Bonnie was intervening just enough to say she did. She would let them hang in a second, even if she had to go down too.

Two final things: Nate and Eve's endless love for Annalise is disturbing and wow, I thought Bonnie had low self esteem now. I'm guessing she's their favorite and in trying to comfort them now, things get twisted.

[Kira53]

In defense of Shonda:

 

Grey's Anatomy and Private Practice have not had bad guys, per se, of any color.

 

On Scandal, Papa Pope, the apex predator, is black. Most of the people on the show, despite their so-called white hats, are bad. Even though Fitz and Jake are objectively bad, or have done numerous bad things, the show clearly wants us to think of them as more than an entitled man-child and a ruthless killer. The closest the show comes to an unequivocal good guy is David Rosen, who is white.

 

On Murder, literally every single main character has done evil things, with the possible exception of Oliver. 

 

She is pretty much equal opportunity when it comes to her villains.

 

I can't think of any character on Scandal that has not killed someone or been responsible for someone being killed.  They are all killers sometimes the justification is better than other characters.  Maybe the new guy in Olivia's company or we just don't know enough about him to know who he killed.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

Not to get too off-topic, but I don't think Harrison or Stephen killed anyone or were directly responsible for having someone killed. Rosen and Abby are likewise not responsible for murders as far as I can remember. (Rosen as AG may have had some input in law enforcement operations that led to deaths, but that is a different thing than, say, smothering a Supreme Court justice because she knows your election was invalid or killing a literal busload of people for...reasons.)

[jhlipton]

I had a stillborn baby 2 years ago here in the UK, I have pictures of my daughter as well as her handprints and footprints.

 

I cannot tell you how sorry I am.  Just at a distance, I can tell how terribly sad this is.

 

 

The only one who isn't bad I think is Oliver. But black white and in between seem to all be pretty bad on this show.

That's a huge reason why Asher's apology stuck out so sharply to me, and I think pissed Bonnie off so much. Thank you's and acknowledgement for being protected from him are so far beyond the point at this stage. Yet he seems to honestly believe that he is the guilty problem at the center of all this. I honestly think he would walk in and take the blame for all this if Annalise or Bonnie told him it would help.

I'm having trouble seeing Asher as a "bad" guy. At Trotter Lake, he was a drunk young man who was going to talk to the police until his father convinced him not to. In the present day, he had a moment of anger and, again, wants to do the right thing, but all the other truly bad people, in which I include Annalese, convince him not to.

 

I read the recap before I watched this ep. That was definitely a mistake since I actually liked it.

I've stopped reading the recaps. I realize that "YMMV" applies to almost all opinions, but the PTV recaps, even more than the TwoP recaps, are like Nissan Leaf vs Hummer mileage variance!

[Milaxx]

Rose strikes me as someone who will do anything to protect her son, including remaining in a position where she is being raped/abused.

It's not uncommon for abused mothers to say that the main reason they have kept quiet about the abuse is to protect their kids, and that they can "take it" because it means their kids are safe.

From what we have seen of Rose, protecting Christophe is the driving factor behind most of the decisions she makes.

 

I suspect that Rose was unwilling to lie on the stand because she felt it was dangerous to give Mahoney any more control over their lives, but that's just a theory. I'm not sure we're supposed to know at this point, either.

THIS. I think Mahoney kept Rose around as his plaything and threatened to kill her son any time she even thought of balking. 

[pennben]

Yeah - there are probably better ways to convey one's point. I just think that knowing how these writers love red herrings and twists, that whole scene was meant to throw us off. They've been driving home the Phillip-is-a-menace thing so much these past few episodes, I have to think there's more to it.

 

Bravo to you!! You nailed it.  I'm still going to contend that breaking/entering, attacking aren't the best way to say "help me", but what do I know?  Although, he could still be lying:)

[Kons]

Has no one noticed that the notes that Sam is taking during his session with Bonnie are about the Hapstall murder which will not happen for another 10 years?

[Milaxx]

On 1/28/2018 at 12:24 AM, Kons said:

Has no one noticed that the notes that Sam is taking during his session with Bonnie are about the Hapstall murder which will not happen for another 10 years?

What? Can you post a clip?