S01.E12: Josh And I Work On A Case!

[PodcastTown]

 

 

Rebecca may have a brilliant legal mind, but she's an incompetent, and, more egregiously, unethical lawyer.

 I find it to be hysterical. She's no Perry Mason that's for sure ;) . Poor Greg, the only sane person in this bizarre world. He really needs to get out of West Covina.

[SeanC]

They really, really don't. Thus the complaints on this thread and elsewhere about Rebecca going "too far" and never learning anything. People don't by and large complain about, say, Patsy and Edina going "too far" or never learning anything because that's the whole point of the characters. The writers have in their cowardice refused to commit to either all-out absurdist silliness or to serious character arcs balanced by comedy and the cracks are showing. Either would be fine, but they need to pick one. What they're doing now is not working.

I don't think the mere existence of complaints proves their validity.  With a comedy of this nature that skirts being a dramedy, obviously people will have different ideas about the direction it should do, especially.

[wayne67]

So we might say that Greg's a bit of a...crazy ex-boyfriend? I think that's the point the show is making, or at least the path it's going down -- setting up a rough parallel between Rebecca and Greg, balancing the titular (hee!) character with a male counterpart (and thereby addressing, as it already does in the title song, the potential misogyny of its central concept).

 

I'm not sure I see Greg trying to protect his friend he's known for over a decade from someone that constantly lies and manipulates in the same category as a crazy ex boyfriend. She's obsessing over a guy she dated ten years ago and thinking about what their children will look like even though she's not dating him.

 

While he is merely pointing out to Josh that she may not be trustworthy. Which she's not. It's not like he's manufacturing situations in order to spend time with her and get her to love him. He's literally saying to her face she's a terrible person and has been since he told her she wasn't a very nice person and she went off to do a custody case to spite him. I don't think we've seen any indication that he would want to date her any more. Sure he may be drawn to her but he hates himself for that and her for constantly manipulating him with her tears and breakdowns.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Crazy Ex-Girlfriend May Be Miserable, But At Least Somebody's Having A Gay Old Time
Rebecca's lies keep coming, but another character learns that the long-dormant truth can go in two directions.

[Snarklepuss]

They really, really don't. Thus the complaints on this thread and elsewhere about Rebecca going "too far" and never learning anything. People don't by and large complain about, say, Patsy and Edina going "too far" or never learning anything because that's the whole point of the characters. The writers have in their cowardice refused to commit to either all-out absurdist silliness or to serious character arcs balanced by comedy and the cracks are showing. Either would be fine, but they need to pick one. What they're doing now is not working.

 

I think there is an implied arc in this show and it's a much bigger one than can be seen clearly in every episode.  I think the assumption I make is that Rebecca is off in crazy land for now but "one day" something will happen and she will start learning and coming to her senses, hence embarking on a serious redemption arc from all her unethical behavior.  Until then we have all this absurd silliness and her doing things that are unethical and lack judgment, which the show is attempting to make funny.  I do think sometimes it succeeds more at making those things funny than at other times.  I kind of didn't feel this week's episode was as funny as some others have been.  I think for me that was because there was too much unethical stuff for me (and my lawyer husband) to be able to suspend enough disbelief to find funny.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[theatremouse]

I know the point of the bill was to be huge but I was distracted by the total. The autograt was 18%, which makes sense and implies someone paid attention to the math. Backing it up from there, there were six people at the group hang and the bill still comes out to well over a hundred dollars per person. Sure, they were drinking and the place was mentioned as "pricey" but what did they do? Each have 4 drinks and their own appetizer and entree? It didn't look like the ambiance of a "pricey" place other than possibly the drinks being pricey and even then, if we assume $15-20 a drink...wow did they eat a lot. It could've still gone for the whole "anyone who spends at least $600" thing without being quite as high as it was. I assume they were going to "ridiculously high"=funny but to me it was distracting.

[FurryFury]

Loved the episode. It's interesting that Rebecca is being presented in the wrong,but still is somehow likable. Great job by the writers and Rachel Bloom.

 

As for Greg, I actually really liked his actions. There are quite a few layers to them and to him, and, as with Rebecca, it's hard to label him as a good or bad person - he's neither. There's definitely an undercurrence of self-hate to them, too - he's self-aware about his feelings for Rebecca but still not strong enough to overcome them. I can relate.

 

I don't have a lot of feelings about WhiteJoshFeather (although it was way too easy for Daryl to come to terms that he's bi, it felt forced), but holy shit, the puns were terrific. It's been a while since I've laughed that much.

 

Each have 4 drinks and their own appetizer and entree?

 

I think Beanie mentioned drinking dieciseis (16) margaritas, so...

Edited February 23, 2016 by FurryFury

[Eyes High]

I think there is an implied arc in this show and it's a much bigger one than can be seen clearly in every episode.  I think the assumption I make is that Rebecca is off in crazy land for now but "one day" something will happen and she will start learning and coming to her senses, hence embarking on a serious redemption arc from all her unethical behavior.  Until then we have all this absurd silliness and her doing things that are unethical and lack judgment, which the show is attempting to make funny.  I do think sometimes it succeeds more at making those things funny than at other times.  I kind of didn't feel this week's episode was as funny as some others have been.  I think for me that was because there was too much unethical stuff for me (and my lawyer husband) to be able to suspend enough disbelief to find funny.

I guess my problem is that I don't feel I can judge the show for what it might become (especially when a show has ratings as low as this one and is thisclose to getting cancelled). I can only judge it for what it is today, and today, I think there are a lot of problems with it. There's nothing hopelessly devastating or unfixable yet, but it's edging closer to that point. I'm getting more and more flashbacks to Weeds, that hideous hot mess of a show--Greg and Rebecca's relationship is reminding me more and more of Nancy and Andy's--and there's nothing good about those memories.

 

Part of the problem is the way the male (ostensibly romantic) leads are characterized. It's one thing for Josh to be a guy of average or even low-average intelligence, and certainly there are enough ditzy female romantic leads on TV that turnabout is fair play, but he's being written to be borderline mentally impaired at this point. It's like watching Rebecca creeping on a child at times (Paula was even speaking to Josh like a child when explaining about court), which is not so much wacky fun as weirdly abusive. As for Greg, he seems too mean, bitter, angry and sad to have any place in this show; the notes he's hitting are increasingly harsh. It's fine if he's pathetic--the perpetually pitiful Toby on The Office was hysterical--but the writing for him needs to be funny, and it isn't; it's as if he wandered in from some hard-hitting character drama, with his sick dad, his hinted alcoholism and his cruel but accurate understanding of Rebecca's issues. It's hard to see much to recommend either of them, much less root for either of them to end up with Rebecca. How can you have a viable love triangle when one of them's a manipulative liar, one of them has the intelligence of a small child, and the other is a hateful ball of angst who belongs on a different show? Why should I care about any of these people?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[Wax Lion]

It was so awesome to see Alistair from Huge (a very underrated show by Winnie Holzman, who created My So-Called Life and also wrote the book for the musical version of Wicked)!

 

That's why he looked familiar! I was so bummed when Huge got cancelled and we never got to see Alistair deal with being trans.

 

I think the problem with the showrunners' description of Rebecca as a "bubbly Walter White" is that they're forgetting what made Walter White compelling and rootable in the first place. Walter White was up against murderers, drug lords and ruthless psychopaths; even Hank, his DEA brother-in-law, was condescending and patronizing to Walt. It made the audience root for Walt to come out on top in a battle of wits and to deploy his fearsome intellect against his antagonizers.

 

Wow. That's just a totally different take on Breaking Bad. Walt got pretty unsympathetic quickly. Sure, he was mostly being shitty to worse people, but it was clear Walt was just awful by the fifth episode and that his family was frequently paid the price for Wait's inability to deal when he wasn't being fawned over for his genius. He was frequently blind to how much he hurt the people he claimed to love (nevermind the hurt his drugs caused) and care about. "Bubbly Walter White" describes Rebecca perfectly, especially when all she can see is that she'll be spending time with Josh.

 

I think Rebecca is the kind of smart person who is great at memorizing a lot of details/rules (very useful in law) and extremely skilled at bullshitting her way through things. In New York, she was probably an amazing lawyer because she had a completely unsatisfying personal life (and probably enjoyed being at the office just by virtue of the office being less awful than the rest of her life) but now she's seeking a satisfying personal life and she doesn't know how to do that without bringing in her work skills. Those are the only things she knows how to do well and it combines horribly with her horrible social awareness.

 

And it doesn't help that she has an enabler at the office with Paula. The only person telling her no is Darryl and he's not a strong advocate for anything.

 

 

Backing it up from there, there were six people at the group hang and the bill still comes out to well over a hundred dollars per person. Sure, they were drinking and the place was mentioned as "pricey" but what did they do? Each have 4 drinks and their own appetizer and entree? It didn't look like the ambiance of a "pricey" place other than possibly the drinks being pricey and even then, if we assume $15-20 a drink...wow did they eat a lot.

 

 

 

I think we were supposed to take that they had a lot of drinks presuming they were all free. They guys seemed pretty drunk by the end and these seem like people who have pretty high tolerance, drinks can add up fast.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Wax Lion

[itainttippithebird]

 

I don't have a lot of feelings about WhiteJoshFeather (although it was way too easy for Daryl to come to terms that he's bi, it felt forced), but holy shit, the puns were terrific. It's been a while since I've laughed that much.

 

WhiteJoshFeather!!! That has to be the best shipping portmanteau in the history of ships.

 

I am LOVE-ING the Daryl/White Joshua (!) relationship developing and I hope it has long, long legs. While Daryl's coming out as bisexual was played for cartoonish effect, I think that's more about the aesthetic of the show than about the politics of representation (that's my reading as one queer person, anyway). I really love that they didn't go with the typical "oh, I was gay all along" narrative and for once allowed a bi person to be bi. Especially a man! I was annoyed by his defensive, homophobic-tinged reaction to Old Gay Daryl, but I'm glad they dispensed with that quickly instead of dragging it out across episodes.

 

This storyline makes me giddy, honestly. It's just the cutest and the most unexpected but in a way that doesn't feel tokenizing, patronizing, or exploitative (again, at least it doesn't to this queer viewer). And that's more than I can say about 90% of LGBTQ representations out there. (Next week, this could change, but for now, I'm just gonna be doodling WhiteJoshFeather on my notebook with stars in my eyes.)

 

P.S. HOWEVS. I do agree that I'm uncomfortable with a lot of the racial politics of the show, from the multiracial baby fetishizing to the representation of Josh's family in the Thanksgiving ep. Everyone seemed to LOVE "I Give Good Parent," but that song made me deepy uncomfortable on a lot of levels.

 

(ETA: When I say "everyone" seemed to love it, I meant the critical response, not necessarily us in this thread.)

Edited February 24, 2016 by itainttippithebird

[Irlandesa]

Wow. That's just a totally different take on Breaking Bad. Walt got pretty unsympathetic quickly.

That's how I saw Breaking Bad too.  Sure, there were people who cheered on Walter White either because he had cancer in the beginning or they just really love someone not following the rules.  But I always felt, in the context of the show, he was awful and presented as such.  The show used the horror of every other character who interacted with him to pain the picture of a monster.

 

Rebecca isn't as awful as and I do think the show will eventually redeem her but I do still get the same sense of uneasiness as I watch her spiral. And I'm comfortable in this world because, like Breaking Bad, I don't get the sense that the show is trying to tell me "root for her to get exactly what she wants." In fact, getting what she wants might push her over the edge.  I could be reading the show wrong but I feel very comfortable with the show's direction.

 

However, Jane The Virgin has had nearly every character lie and manipulate, but it does a much better job at showing the real feelings and emotions that motivated the characters' actions.

I've been feeling that plot drives the characters in Jane The Virgin more than characterization since about the end of the first season.  And therefore, I feel much less connected to those characters, who I once adored, than I do to CEG's.  I get these characters.  The closest the show got to plot driving emotion for me is probably this episode when they walked back Josh's realization from last week.  On the other hand, they've also shown Josh to think the best of people. 

 

As for White Josh and Darryl, I am looking forward to what is coming but I think I can finally get a bit more detailed on why I found it pat.  It appears as if Darryl hadn't considered being sexually attracted to men before and that White Josh stirred something in him.  (That's not to say he hasn't had these feelings before but the reciprocity led him to give it even more consideration.)  So I guess I'm playing backseat driver in that I would have preferred a scenario where Darryl explore whether or not his feelings were real or just flattery while also not wanting to lead on White Josh.  Instead, it played as if random ass made him come to the realization that he was attracted to both and I can't help but think if he were that attracted to the male tush, bothsexuality would have occurred to him before.

[PodcastTown]

White Josh and Daryl is the greatest love story since love. I get warm fuzzy feels inside.

[wayne67]

As for White Josh and Darryl, I am looking forward to what is coming but I think I can finally get a bit more detailed on why I found it pat.  It appears as if Darryl hadn't considered being sexually attracted to men before and that White Josh stirred something in him.  (That's not to say he hasn't had these feelings before but the reciprocity led him to give it even more consideration.)  So I guess I'm playing backseat driver in that I would have preferred a scenario where Darryl explore whether or not his feelings were real or just flattery while also not wanting to lead on White Josh.  Instead, it played as if random ass made him come to the realization that he was attracted to both and I can't help but think if he were that attracted to the male tush, bothsexuality would have occurred to him before.

 

Honestly as a 'queer' guy I'm like White Josh is a personal trainer at a gym and DARRYL is the type of guy he's into ? Not any of those ripped toned gym bunnies that he'd see on a daily basis? I'm just like okie dokie whatever floats your boat I suppose.

It's rare to see fit athletic guys in their 20's attracted to middle aged men with children very often in today's media. Which I suppose is a good thing. I mean I've been there done that but I've yet to find why in particular WJ (White Josh) likes Daryl other than he's adorably befuddled.

 

Maybe they'll go on a date and we'll see if there's anything there.

On an unrelated note I didn't even recognize him as Sue's love interest in the Middle. I guess because he mostly has his shirt on in this show. 

[Ohwell]

Honestly as a 'queer' guy I'm like White Josh is a personal trainer at a gym and DARRYL is the type of guy he's into ? Not any of those ripped toned gym bunnies that he'd see on a daily basis? I'm just like okie dokie whatever floats your boat I suppose.

It's rare to see fit athletic guys in their 20's attracted to middle aged men with children very often in today's media. Which I suppose is a good thing. I mean I've been there done that but I've yet to find why in particular WJ (White Josh) likes Daryl other than he's adorably befuddled.

 

Maybe they'll go on a date and we'll see if there's anything there.

On an unrelated note I didn't even recognize him as Sue's love interest in the Middle. I guess because he mostly has his shirt on in this show. 

Truth be told,  I couldn't figure out White Josh's attraction to Darryl either.  Not that the guy has to be ripped like himself, but it's the age difference that has me scratching my head.

[wayne67]

Truth be told,  I couldn't figure out White Josh's attraction to Darryl either.  Not that the guy has to be ripped like himself, but it's the age difference that has me scratching my head.

I think part of it is that we don't really have much indication as to White Josh's character or characterization. I'm not sure what he wants from life or existence. I know Heather was a psych student interested in Rebecca's psychology. I know that Greg is damaged from his mom leaving him with his dad and has issues with unattainable women and chronic intellectual sarcasm. I know that Paula is struggling with a lacklustre marriage that fails to entertain or excite her. I know Valencia is the Mean Girl who pushes people away partly because she's dubious of ulterior motives and possibly due to past betrayals. Rebecca has abandonment and self esteem issues due to her father leaving and her mother... well over mothering.

 

White Josh I have no idea who he is, what he wants, his psychology. All I know is he's a personal trainer and he's part of Josh's group without knowing why he's hanging out with a bunch of straight boys. Did they play in the same football team? go to the same school? 

 

Makes rooting for a romance with him and some other guy kind of difficult. His gayness was only clarified this episode. As was Daryl's bi-ness. 

 

I know in my case I only dated an older guy because he had a house and could cook and he didn't live with his offspring. Completely shallow reasons but for a 19 year old fresh on the scene it wasn't completely outrageous.

 

White Josh is 20-30ish? Does he want to settle down with a guy that has a career? Is he bored of gym bunnies ? Does he have daddy issues? Is he attracted to noobs ? 

Probably over thinking it, but anything to avoid thinking of how terrible the Rebecca/Josh situation is :P . lol 

[cleo57]

I'm still enjoying this show a lot. Unlike other people in this thread, I don't feel like it's suffered any great lapse in quality or that it's too tonally jarring.

 

Having said that, I thought this episode was only okay. And when episodes of this show only ascend to the level of "okay," it reminds me that I don't actually like its fundamental conceit.

 

I like the songs, the barely contained sadness, the funny tag scenes, the incisize portrayal of mental illness, the high energy performances. I like the vibe of it all, the brightly colored camp coating a deeply felt emotional core. But I don't actually like the part where the show is about a girl who moved across the country to stalk a boy she barely knows. I know it's a feminist deconstruction of the trope, but I'm not sure every trope needs to be subverted. Some tropes should just be allowed to die.

 

When this show is at its best, I forget about the fact that I'm not actually very interested in Rebecca's pursuit of Josh. I enjoy aspects of this pursuit. I like her as the chaotic agent of change, blowing into a world of strip malls and pretzel stands and forcing everyone to confront the lies they've been telling themselves. But then there are the countless scenes of Rebecca, ball of manic energy, lying to Josh, endlessly forgiving dimwit. I've had enough of them, honestly. I loved the textmergency episode, and that felt like the apex of that particular comedic narrative. Rebecca piled lies on top of lies until even Josh knew something was wrong. His ability to turn a blind eye to her brand of crazy snapped, and there should have been consequences. But here we are again, after what felt like a moment of actual catharsis, back to law offices turned into NASA control rooms and Paula's ridiculous schemes. They pushed the reset button a little too hard.

 

I really do feel like this show is doing a pretty good job balacing all of its parts. But it's perpetually tap dancing along the catastrophe curve, where one wrong step could render it unwatchable. It's as though the writers set themselves the task of writing a romcom with the highest degree of difficulty. What if we took an inherently anti-feminist plot and made it feminist? What if we wrote a love triangle where none of the parties are in any way compatible? What if our heroine pivoted between Looney Tunes and accurate portrayal of depressione every 5 minutes? Etc. It's comendable that they're succeeding thus far, but there's a reason that other high concept sitcoms often abandon their concept after a few episodes (for example, Cougar Town). A lot of the time, a wacky premise becomes too much of a constraint. And if the writers are really committed to Rebecca's love for Josh, if they really believe that it could span seasons without becoming a millstone around the show's neck - well. Maybe they're just more creative than I am. 

 

The thing about Walter White is that the writers were able to balance the cathartic excitement of him defeating his enemies with the emotional toll it took on his family and loved ones. He became a villain very early on in the show's run, but there was still visceral pleasure to be had when he outschemed an evil drug dealer. Walt's antagonists were usually bad enough that his victories were enjoyable. And every time we the audience thrilled at Walt's latest scheme, we became a little bit complicit in his moral trajectory. But Skyler and Walt Jr. and Jesse were always there to remind us of the damage Walt caused; they forced us to recontextualize his 'awesome' moments. Their pain made every cool sciencey thing he did a little less cool.

 

With Rebecca, the cathartic excitement and the pain is all pointing in one direction: Josh. I can't get invested in her pursuit of him, because she's willfully lying to him at every turn. I can't get excited because of the potential pain she's causing him, and he's just too dumb and naive to push back against her manipulations. He's not an evil drug dealer. He's just a nice, sweet bro who should find a nice, sweet lady to settle down with. I mostly just want Rebecca to leave him alone.

 

 

 

 

[Eyes High]

Wow. That's just a totally different take on Breaking Bad. Walt got pretty unsympathetic quickly. Sure, he was mostly being shitty to worse people, but it was clear Walt was just awful by the fifth episode and that his family was frequently paid the price for Wait's inability to deal when he wasn't being fawned over for his genius. He was frequently blind to how much he hurt the people he claimed to love (nevermind the hurt his drugs caused) and care about.

 

Walt did become extremely unsympathetic, but he was always compelling and rootable, even at his worst, no matter how much damage he caused his family, and the show accomplished this by pitting him against villains who were even worse than he was and urging the audience to root for him to outwit them. Even nearing the end of the series, as his schemes caused more and more collateral damage, and even as he'd alienated the people who cared about him, the show made him compelling and even rootable by pitting him against a pack of Neo-Nazis who were far more despicable than he was. He looked like a saint in comparison, and that was entirely deliberate. The series was very, very careful to avoid dwelling overmuch on the innocents directly or indirectly affected by Walt, in particular the many, many drug addicts hooked on his blue meth, in favour of the giddy thrill of watching Walt concoct elaborate schemes (often involving his knowledge of chemistry) try to stay one step of the authorities (aka smug Hank) or the multitude of psychopaths trying to do him in. The writers kept the focus on those multiple cat-and-mouse games, even as Walt became more and more monstrous and stooped lower and lower, because the writers knew that no one would care about Walt if his antagonists weren't even worse than he was. As a result, viewers cared about Walt right up until the end and rooted for him to take down the pack of Neo-Nazis, because at the end of the day they were even more terrible than he was.

 

To bring it back to Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, the lesson of Walter White is that if your protagonist is that awful, and you in any way care about evoking the audience's sympathy you'd better make darn sure that the people to whom they're being awful are even worse. (See also Game of Thrones, at least in the latter seasons.) The main cast is full of terrible people, but Rebecca is by far the worst, and the primary target of her manipulations, Josh, despite his many problems, doesn't deserve to be treated that way.

 

Instead, it played as if random ass made him come to the realization that he was attracted to both and I can't help but think if he were that attracted to the male tush, bothsexuality would have occurred to him before.

There was that actress who came out late in life after being married to a man for a long time (maybe the Family Ties actress, I'm not sure), and I remember reading an interview or something with her where she talked about sleeping with a woman for the first time and being like "Ohhhhhhhh, so this is what the fuss is about." It might be different for dudes, but I think that lightbulb moment of realizing one's sexuality can be a real thing.

 

Honestly as a 'queer' guy I'm like White Josh is a personal trainer at a gym and DARRYL is the type of guy he's into ? Not any of those ripped toned gym bunnies that he'd see on a daily basis? I'm just like okie dokie whatever floats your boat I suppose.

It's rare to see fit athletic guys in their 20's attracted to middle aged men with children very often in today's media. Which I suppose is a good thing. I mean I've been there done that but I've yet to find why in particular WJ (White Josh) likes Daryl other than he's adorably befuddled.

 

Truth be told,  I couldn't figure out White Josh's attraction to Darryl either.  Not that the guy has to be ripped like himself, but it's the age difference that has me scratching my head.

 

A hot young gym trainer ignoring age-appropriate hot young things in favour of hooking up with a wealthy older man? Inconceivable!

Edited February 24, 2016 by Eyes High

[wayne67]

A hot young gym trainer ignoring age-appropriate hot young things in favour of hooking up with a wealthy older man? Inconceivable!

 

To be fair we don't know if WJ is attracted to perceived wealth which depending on your POV would be hypergamy or gold digging which we have no clear evidence to favor any particular interpretation.

 

Not that I'm particularly clear on what Daryl would be worth, he's a single divorced dad, 70% of his income could be going to his ex wife for all we know and we have no idea how profitable White Feather is as a company. Daryl seemed kind of desperate to settle when the offer of a million dollars came onto the table. He said 'We really need this'. Depending on a whole lot of factors Daryl may have less disposable income than a hot 20 something personal trainer since personal training can cost anywhere between 50 bucks a session to a thousand and we have no idea how much Daryl is worth, how much he's in debt for with wife/business/child or his potential earnings. I'm still not clear as to whether Daryl is a lawyer or a business manager.  

 

It's not inconceivable that WJ is attracted to Daryl for mercenary reasons or settling down reasons or attraction reason but at this point I have no idea why he likes Daryl other than one is the token gay and the other is the token bi guy. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by wayne67

[Eyes High]

To be fair we don't know if WJ is attracted to perceived wealth which depending on your POV would be hypergamy or gold digging which we have no clear evidence to favor any particular interpretation.

 

Not that I'm particularly clear on what Daryl would be worth, he's a single divorced dad, 70% of his income could be going to his ex wife for all we know and we have no idea how profitable White Feather is as a company. Daryl seemed kind of desperate to settle when the offer of a million dollars came onto the table. He said 'We really need this'. Depending on a whole lot of factors Daryl may have less disposable income than a hot 20 something personal trainer since personal training can cost anywhere between 50 bucks a session to a thousand and we have no idea how much Daryl is worth, how much he's in debt for with wife/business/child or his potential earnings. I'm still not clear as to whether Daryl is a lawyer or a business manager.  

 

It's not inconceivable that WJ is attracted to Daryl for mercenary reasons or settling down reasons or attraction reason but at this point I have no idea why he likes Daryl other than one is the token gay and the other is the token bi guy. 

 

Yeah, I know, I was just being facetious. Stranger things have happened than a White Josh/Darryl-type pairing, is all I'm saying.

 

Darryl is not only a lawyer at the firm, he appears to be the managing partner. His name is on the door, after all. Rebecca also describes him as "her boss," and business managers are not in the leadership hierarchy at law firms; they're more in the nature of HR/Admin work. With that said, due to the divorce and the firm's financial straits, Darryl might not actually have money (although given that he appears to be the managing partner at a decent-sized law firm, he may very well), but White Josh might think he has money.

 

We don't know enough about White Josh to determine why he's attracted to Daryl (although all other things being equal, I tend to think money when I see gay or straight pairings like that in real life). I agree that if the only reason they pair off is that they're the only man-loving dudes in the cast, it will seem really contrived.

[wayne67]

Yeah, I know, I was just being facetious. Stranger things have happened than a White Josh/Darryl-type pairing, is all I'm saying.

 

Poe's Law. 

 

This whole show being a musical comedy is stretching typical credibility what with people breaking into song and dance at random blurring the lines between reality and surreal farce. Rebecca being a 'great lawyer' is also stretching credibility given her lack of professionalism in the workplace. 

 

At this point I'm neither for or against WJ & Daryl. I'm still awaiting for some reason as to why I should care about a secondary character hooking up with a tertiary character. 

[Irlandesa]

Viewers cared about Walt right up until the end and rooted for him to take down the pack of Neo-Nazis, because at the end of the day they were even more terrible than he was.

Out of respect for those who haven't seen Breaking Bad, I'll spoiler this BB talk:

 

I agree Breaking Bad was smart to play the cat and mouse game but I disagree that everyone around him was worse. Towards the final season, people were rooting for Hank. (I'd argue he became the most heroic figure in the story.)  People were rooting for Walt vs. the Neo Nazis because they wanted Walter to save Jesse.  Most people still cared about Jesse.  Far more than who cared about Walt. 

 

I think this show is doing well with the cat and mouse game with Rebecca too, especially in the last episode.  She's staying just far ahead enough of everyone just as Walter White did. 

Until BrB shocked me in the second season and had Skylar find out. 

I didn't expect it that soon.  I think the show needs something similar but it doesn't need it now.

 

There was that actress who came out late in life after being married to a man for a long time (maybe the Family Ties actress, I'm not sure), and I remember reading an interview or something with her where she talked about sleeping with a woman for the first time and being like "Ohhhhhhhh, so this is what the fuss is about." It might be different for dudes, but I think that lightbulb moment of realizing one's sexuality can be a real thing.

I think it happens far more for women because I have read they're more fluid than men tend to be, for whatever reason.  And that's why I think Daryl's bisexuality has probably always been a part of him. If he's just now experiencing sexual attraction towards men, it's possible it's because his romantic and sexual preference is women but does have the capacity to feel both for men as well.

It's not inconceivable that WJ is attracted to Daryl for mercenary reasons or settling down reasons or attraction reason but at this point I have no idea why he likes Daryl other than one is the token gay and the other is the token bi guy. 

I'm hoping we learn more as they explore this but I don't think this is shallowly thought out as "token gay/token bi."  (Token bi cracks me up because I don't think we're at the 'token bi' level yet.  Then we saw them hit it off on the bus in a way that Daryl tends to not hit it off with people and seem to enjoy each other's company at the party. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

White Josh is 20-30ish? Does he want to settle down with a guy that has a career? Is he bored of gym bunnies ? Does he have daddy issues? Is he attracted to noobs ?

First of all, not every relationship needs to be about settling down and being serious so it's possible that White Josh isn't looking to get married to Darryl. And although huge age differences make me initially suspicious of the older party, sometimes they work out fine. The reason I am okay with Darryl and White Josh for now is that it didn't seem like White Josh was interested in Darryl because of his age or any of the assumptions that go with dating any older person. Darryl was suuuuuper enthusiastic when he met White Josh on the party bus, practically fanboying all over the place because he had seen him at the gym. White Josh didn't seem like he had been secretly checking out Darryl at the gym though so it's not like White Josh is being portrayed as actively seeking out an older guy. But they really seemed to hit it off at the party and had a good time together, which is why I like them for now. Their interest in each other seems rooted in liking each other's company, which I prefer to see (as opposed to the couples we see on tv all the time who are just wildly attracted to each other but know very little about each other). And it is totally possible that White Josh is tired of gym bunnies. A friend of a friend dated three different trainers in a row and then got a little burnt out on that type.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

This week's songs (I love the look on Beans's face when he says, "PIZZA!"):

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[STOPSHOUTING]

I, too, commented that it seemed like WyJosh would be way out of Darryl's league, but I gotta say I loved the sweet, simple explanation for the cheek kiss ... "You were being cute, so I kissed you." Lovely, romantic, appropriate given the scenario (barely sexual and not at all aggressive), but also not at all insecure on WyJosh's part (no worries about what anyone will think or say). Very well handled and adorable to see as a viewer. 

 

I also liked, when they did have the conversation, that WyJosh was totally nonplussed discussing not only his own sexuality (no big deal), but how he didn't try and convince Darryl he was gay, or that their kiss meant anything. He was all just like, 'OK, whatever' you say. It wasn't presented as a great love, or a huge faux pas, or a mission to get Darryl to realize "the truth." It all just was. You know, like in real life. (I also like the twist, if it's not to crass to call it that, that it wasn't Darryl realizing he'd always been gay, but that he was actually bisexual, a much less represented experience, that's usually mostly seen on Cinemax after Dark movies with a creepy part-time lesbian vibe.)

 

I'm a straight woman, so I see my experience of a guy hugging me, or kissing me on the cheek, and then me wondering, 'Hmm, was that just his way of being friendly or does he like me?' over and over again on TV. I rarely see the, I would think just as common in real life, same sex version. Especially not handled with zero drama, no immediate relationship goals -- by the show vs those posited in this thread -- or jumping into a sexual relationship. Just a very sweet, almost chaste, interaction that gets the other party's heart fluttering and mind wondering. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by STOPSHOUTING

[Wax Lion]

Arg. I keep losing my post.

 

I think they've got the set up for White Josh being tired of being around gaybros and wanting to be around someone who sticks around and clean up after a party. He's at that age where he's craving some stability but not everyone else his age is feeling the same way.

 

I want to try to make a corned beef enchilada now.

[taragel]

That's the problem. If you're going to go as dark as this show is going, you need to balance out the darkness with comedy, and right now the show isn't funny enough. Moreover, the show hasn't found its tone yet, wildly swinging between painful emotional truth and sociopathic hijinx. If you have everyone cheerfully act like assholes, you can't throw in any moments of emotional resonance or power, because it throws off the tone. This show wants to have its cake and eat it too: have us care about the characters as human beings reflecting deep and powerful emotional truths ("You Stupid Bitch") but not care about the damage they deliberately and even gleefully inflict on other characters, because, hey this is a comedy. Doesn't work, sorry. You can have either wacky, irresponsible, meaningless and sociopathic (It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia) or you can have a show where the damage characters do to each other and themselves is always acknowledged and where characters grow and change (The Office). They can't have it both ways. 

 

I respectfully disagree. There are quite a few shows that aim for this exact same space. The Mindy Project is a good example. Mindy Lahiri is supposed to be a brilliant doctor with many achievements--yet she's frequently completely unprofessional, selfish, narrow-minded, cruel to others etc. (You could make the same argument for Danny, her love interest.) They have deep emotional moments right alongside ridiculous/humiliating bad decisions made by Mindy. Doesn't mean the show doesn't frame the narrative to have you rooting for Mindy and Danny. Whether or not that works for you personally is purely subjective. It works for me on Crazy Ex, which I feel *IS* funny enough to pull it off, it doesn't work for me on The Mindy Project where I don't care for the kind of humor they have as much (maybe if they had more musical numbers...)  

 

But to say it's bringing the show down and will cause its inevitable demise seems like projection. It might cause YOU to check out of it, but the ratings are growing each week to the point where it's now outperforming Jane the Virgin.  So plenty of people are just fine with this balance. (And...that same cocktail hasn't seemed to hurt The Mindy Project much as it's thriving just fine on Hulu.)

[xander874]

 

Boy, they really don't know what to do with her character, do they?

This show has issues with several characters. Greg started off okay, but now he has veered off into some weird bitter place and only pops up randomly to dispense snark. I need more development on several of these characters. Besides Rebecca, Josh and Paula, I don't think the others are getting their due (although Daryl is getting some now).

 

Regarding the WhiteJoshFeather (love that name) pairing, I don't think it's weird at all. As a gay man who has dated quite a bit, there are all types who are attracted to all types. Maybe WJosh has a thing for daddies? It's very common in the gay community. And I think Daryl is attractive. I don't know how old Pete Gardner is, but I imagine Daryl to be in his early 40s and Josh in his late 20s - not some huge age gap in the grand scheme of things.

 

That being said, I thought Daryl's "awakening" was a bit rushed, but I enjoyed the story, especially WJosh's nonchalance at the whole thing. I think they are cute and I don't necessarily see it being some great romance, but they could have fun and I'd like to see that (much more than Rebecca's lie of the week).

Edited February 24, 2016 by xander874

[STOPSHOUTING]

This show has issues with several characters. Greg started off okay, but now he has veered off into some weird bitter place and only pops up randomly to dispense snark. 

 

I don't necessarily 'ship he and Rebecca, but Greg is still MY favorite character, and the (type of) guy I'd probably be attracted to in real life. The non-hunky guy, who is a little bit bitter and incredibly sarcastic and is shown wearing a t-shirt even post-coital with the sheet pulled up to his shoulders ... This pretty much describes every guy I had a crush on in college. All the ones I'd spend a semester with with just hanging out and having fun and being sarcastic and listening to him talk endlessly about some shallow, prettier than me sorority chick he had the hots for while I sat there pining and being the funny, smart girl who liked everything he did but he never even considered dating because he was a 19-year-old idiot. Sigh. ... Hmm wonder why the bitterness appeals to me. ;)

[Eyes High]

Their interest in each other seems rooted in liking each other's company, which I prefer to see (as opposed to the couples we see on tv all the time who are just wildly attracted to each other but know very little about each other).

Sure. As stated upthread, we don't know the reason yet for White Josh's interest in Daryl. Also, in fiction, you tend to see people hooking up who never would in real life, and this show is hardly a heavy-hitting, realistic depiction of relationships.

 

With all that said, in real life, when a fit, pretty young thing of either gender hooks up with an older, less pretty, wealthy thing of either gender, all other things being equal (no mommy/daddy fetishes or rare fetishes, e.g.), it's usually about money. Call me cynical. Someone might say they're doing it because they want "stability," but, well...

 

(And...that same cocktail hasn't seemed to hurt The Mindy Project much as it's thriving just fine on Hulu.)

The Mindy Project limped along on the brink of cancellation for multiple seasons until it wound up on Hulu. It does seem to be doing well on Hulu. If this show gets cancelled, maybe it will find a home on Netflix, Amazon or Hulu.

 

I do agree that Mindy Lahiri is a Rebecca-like character in that the show wants us to believe that she's good at her job while showing her to be unprofessional, unethical, etc. Generally speaking, it seems that TV fictional professionals (lawyers, doctors, etc.) supposedly being awesome at their jobs but being shitty at their jobs (incompetent, unethical, etc.) is a pretty common thing. On any given episode of Suits or The Good Wife, the lawyer main characters will do multiple things that would get them disbarred in real life. The only show I've seen in the past 10 or so years centered on lawyers that pays any attention at all to these issues is Better Call Saul. (Not that Saul doesn't transgress ethical boundaries, but the show is very clear about it when he does.) 

 

This show has issues with several characters. Greg started off okay, but now he has veered off into some weird bitter place and only pops up randomly to dispense snark. 

Yes, exactly. They don't seem to know what to do with him.

 

I don't necessarily 'ship he and Rebecca, but Greg is still MY favorite character, and the (type of) guy I'd probably be attracted to in real life. The non-hunky guy, who is a little bit bitter and incredibly sarcastic and is shown wearing a t-shirt even post-coital with the sheet pulled up to his shoulders ... This pretty much describes every guy I had a crush on in college. 

Heh. It's funny that Greg in the show is the perpetually overlooked second banana in Josh's group, where Josh is the alpha and all the girls want him, and where Greg is the moon to Josh's blinding sun, because Greg was exactly my type in university: cute in an off-kilter way (I showed a picture of one of my university crushes to my current partner and he laughed for about five minutes, while I protested "You don't get it! He was in a band!"), very smart, very literate (I read The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle to get one Greg's attention), bitter, sad, sensitive, self-deprecating, sarcastic, probably an alcoholic...I would have walked past a hundred Joshes to throw myself at the feet of a Greg back then, and I think most of the smart, funny female students like STOPSHOUTING would have done the same.

 

I never dated a Greg--merely pined helplessly for them--but I consider that a bullet dodged. The guy I'm with now is basically Josh, or at least, a person embodying Josh's best qualities, plus a brain. Way better. I'm also good friends with a married Greg type, and while he's a great guy and can be great fun (smart, witty, funny and observant), he is still unrelentingly negative and sour, despite having been happily married for many years. Bullet. Dodged.

 

That's why to me it's a little strange that Rebecca has no interest whatsoever in Greg, because in my observation, a guy like Greg would normally be catnip to a smart, funny girl like Rebecca, and normally a smart, funny girl like Rebecca would have no interest in a dumb jock type, no matter how lovely and gorgeous he was. (On the other hand, in real life someone like Greg would likely have no interest in Rebecca and would spend his time whining about how Valencia wouldn't date him.)

Edited February 24, 2016 by Eyes High

[itainttippithebird]

I think part of the reason I don't mind Daryl's coming out and the White Josh kiss being all in one episode is it quickly sidesteps the possibility of queerbaiting, unlike sooooo manyyyyy otherrrrr shoooows. There's no subtext, there's no will they/won't they make a character canonically queer, there's none of that shit where the showrunners/actors hint in interviews that the character(s) JUST MIGHT BE gay, you never know, while leaving them ostensibly heterosexual in the text for seasons at a time. It's refreshing for a show to just get right to it and not dither around, not trying to pique viewer interest by teasing out a possible queer storyline (that often never emerges).

 

Anyway, I will be instituting Window Washer Gossip Fridays immediately, is what I'm saying.

Edited February 24, 2016 by itainttippithebird

[Eyes High]

I think part of the reason I don't mind Daryl's coming out and the White Josh kiss being all in one episode is it quickly sidesteps the possibility of queerbaiting, unlike sooooo manyyyyy otherrrrr shoooows. There's no subtext, there's no will they/won't they make a character canonically queer, there's none of that shit where the showrunners/actors hint in interviews that the character(s) JUST MIGHT BE gay, you never know, while leaving them ostensibly heterosexual in the text for seasons at a time. It's refreshing for a show to just get right to it and not dither around, not trying to pique viewer interest by teasing out a possible queer storyline (that often never emerges).

 

Not that we're naming names, of course. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more.

 

 

 

Anyway, I will be instituting Window Washer Gossip Fridays immediately, is what I'm saying.

One of the window washers was gay, too. One dude was judging Rebecca, and the lady was like "You weren't exactly the picture of sanity when your boyfriend left" (or words to that effect) and the third window washer made this hilarious "Girllllllllllll" face. That I quite liked.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Eyes High

[itainttippithebird]

I like to think ALL of the Window Washer Gossip Friday gang is gay. :)

[AllAboutMBTV]

 

I loved the sweet, simple explanation for the cheek kiss ... "You were being cute, so I kissed you." Lovely, romantic, appropriate given the scenario (barely sexual and not at all aggressive), but also not at all insecure on WyJosh's part (no worries about what anyone will think or say). Very well handled and adorable to see as a viewer.

I really don't think White Josh has any ulterior sugar-daddy motives with Darryl. He seems to be a Be Here Now, in-the-moment character who for whatever reason likes Darryl and considers himself Darryl's friend ("Well, you've got one now.") Also, Darryl planted that kiss on Josh by surprise (and in his own giddy moment of realization). And while Josh didn't pull away or slug him (he merely smiled afterward), it was only a maybe three-second, closed-mouth kiss with no immediate resolution as the scene cut back to Rebecca and Trent.

 

All that said, I'll be interested to see where the show goes with WhiteJoshFeather (hee!). But, please by the gods of Robbins and Sondheim, give White Josh a snappy musical number! With chorus boys! And breakaway costumes! And tapping! On a staircase!

[wayne67]

All that said, I'll be interested to see where the show goes with WhiteJoshFeather (hee!). But, please by the gods of Robbins and Sondheim, give White Josh a snappy musical number! With chorus boys! And breakaway costumes! And tapping! On a staircase!

 

That could be amusing.

 

I think I started a fierce debate about W J without meaning to. I was just curious as to what WJ saw in Daryl and whether he was looking for a gay friend/ hook up/ relationship. Perhaps we'll get some follow up on it next episode.

 

That said I am actually thinking Greg and Valencia make for a hilarious snarky duo. 

[AnnaRose]

...But I don't actually like the part where the show is about a girl who moved across the country to stalk a boy she barely knows. I know it's a feminist deconstruction of the trope, but I'm not sure every trope needs to be subverted. Some tropes should just be allowed to die.

 

When this show is at its best, I forget about the fact that I'm not actually very interested in Rebecca's pursuit of Josh. I enjoy aspects of this pursuit. I like her as the chaotic agent of change, blowing into a world of strip malls and pretzel stands and forcing everyone to confront the lies they've been telling themselves. But then there are the countless scenes of Rebecca, ball of manic energy, lying to Josh, endlessly forgiving dimwit. I've had enough of them, honestly. I loved the textmergency episode, and that felt like the apex of that particular comedic narrative. Rebecca piled lies on top of lies until even Josh knew something was wrong. His ability to turn a blind eye to her brand of crazy snapped, and there should have been consequences. But here we are again, after what felt like a moment of actual catharsis, back to law offices turned into NASA control rooms and Paula's ridiculous schemes. They pushed the reset button a little too hard.

 

Watching this show, feminist is the last word that would ever come to mind to describe it.

 

I totally agree with your second point though.

 

This show has become very difficult to watch lately.

[arc]

That's why to me it's a little strange that Rebecca has no interest whatsoever in Greg, because in my observation, a guy like Greg would normally be catnip to a smart, funny girl like Rebecca, and normally a smart, funny girl like Rebecca would have no interest in a dumb jock type, no matter how lovely and gorgeous he was. (On the other hand, in real life someone like Greg would likely have no interest in Rebecca and would spend his time whining about how Valencia wouldn't date him.)

I think expected preferences might be askew in this case due to Rebecca and Josh's theater camp backstory, which was also "the last time Rebecca was truly happy". After that, it was regular life with her mom, then the next summer was mock trial instead of theater camp, and from there probably a straight shot through to her lawyer career.

 

I liked the episode enough, though it did feel like repurposing a plot originally intended to come much earlier did rewind the Josh-Rebecca dynamic a bit too much from the previous episode.  These were pretty solid musical numbers and the little "pretext" joke is one of the funniest jokes of the show so far.

[Eyes High]

Watching this show, feminist is the last word that would ever come to mind to describe it.

The premise isn't particularly feminist, but the show has demonstrated a strong feminist awareness, even when Rebecca indulges in sexist bullshit (and/or tries to justify her bullshit with her feminist cred or by arguing feminism): Rebecca pole dancing for male attention and then vehemently denying she's doing any such thing, citing her Feminist Pole class, as one example. It reminds me a lot of 30 Rock: Tina Fey is feminist and Liz Lemon is not only a sexist cartoon in many ways (lonely, food-obsessed, unkempt, mostly single human disaster) but also talks loudly about what a good feminist she is to justify her bullshit (like scarfing down a sandwich in 30 seconds to make a flight while moaning "I can have it all!"). Given that Rachel Bloom has talked about how Tina Fey influenced her, that's not surprising.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[tennisgurl]

I think the show is really interesting to watch through a feminist lens. Rebecca clearly considers herself a feminist, is up on feminist knowledge and theory, and is very up to talk about it with people, and use it to justify her actions...her actions that are very anti-feminist. She is doing so much for this guy, but I think the intro song has a point. The situation is a lot more nuanced than that. She does love Josh, and frequently does really messed up things to get his attention, but I think her Josh obsession is just a huge symptom of a much bigger problem. If she had run into an ex boyfriend from Alaska, she would have probably been on the next plane out of Juno, to sing songs while wearing Parkas. 

 

This show is, to me, saying interesting things about modern mental health issues and feminism (especially to people who know all about what is right in their head, but find themselves making horrible mistakes and obsessing over other people, instead of their own problems). 

[Irlandesa]

Also, feminist doesn't have to mean the perfect portrayal of a feminist.  I think it's a feminist show because it's created by two women. 10 of the 14 episodes for which there is "written by" information have been written by women.  The story is mostly told from the POV of a woman.    I think it's feminist because it can have a song that has an empowering message for women and then subverts that message because few are the "perfect" feminist if there even is such a thing.  And the show doesn't try to conform the character into a "likable" box.

 

That said I am actually thinking Greg and Valencia make for a hilarious snarky duo.

 

Yeah. I was intrigued. Heather has a Parks And Rec April vibe.  She's nicer than April but I find her even flatter so more boring.

[SmithW6079]

I don't think White Josh has any romantic feelings for Daryl. His peck on the cheek was just a peck on the cheek. I believe he referred to Daryl with some sympathy as an "old gay." And yes, White Josh is out of Daryl's league.

White Josh may hang out with straight guys because he dislikes the drama of "mainstream" gay culture with its focus on looks, youth, pop divas, and being bitchy.

Someone upthread mentioned feeling more sorry for Paula than Rebecca, but I'm the other way. I have a little more sympathy for Rebecca because I think she is genuinely mentally ill. Paula is just a manipulative bitch who's encouraging a delusional woman for her own sick enjoyment.

I was definitely rooting for Valencia and Greg. I love that Valencia sees right through Rebecca and her attempts to wreck Josh and Valencia's relationship.

Edited February 26, 2016 by SmithW6079

[wayne67]

Also, feminist doesn't have to mean the perfect portrayal of a feminist.  I think it's a feminist show because it's created by two women. 10 of the 14 episodes for which there is "written by" information have been written by women.  The story is mostly told from the POV of a woman.    I think it's feminist because it can have a song that has an empowering message for women and then subverts that message because few are the "perfect" feminist if there even is such a thing.  And the show doesn't try to conform the character into a "likable" box.

Is this the NAFALT argument ? 

 

Also what does being written by women have to do with feminism ? If the writers don't label themselves as feminists then assuming that this show has anything to do with feminism seems filled with deeply flawed 'logic'. Even if they were feminists that doesn't necessarily mean they are writing a show to further feminism.

 

The main purpose of writing a tv show should always be a mix of artistic creativity which the musicals have shown to various degrees with some failures and ratings which indicate profitability and market appeal. If the writers main goal is propaganda for a cause... well that's troubling.

I think the biggest problem with the show is I hate 3 of the lead characters. Paula is a dangerous enabler who vandalized Josh's car just to enable stalking. Rebecca is wildly unprofessional and more problematic for me at least, repetitive. Then there's Josh... who's both boring, dopey and apparently oblivious to logic, behavioral observations and effort. 

[Irlandesa]

Also what does being written by women have to do with feminism ? If the writers don't label themselves as feminists then assuming that this show has anything to do with feminism seems filled with deeply flawed 'logic'. Even if they were feminists that doesn't necessarily mean they are writing a show to further feminism.

Feminist can also relate to feminism or be a representation of that feminism.  All things being equal, that women write the show shouldn't mean much.  But things aren't equal behind the scenes.  (Or in front of the scenes for that matter.)  So any time a woman makes the choice to write a television show and is granted that opportunity, it is a feminist move.  It doesn't mean that the show is about some serious mission to push a cause.  It is pushing a cause, however, by its mere existance and in helping increase the diversity of the creative minds producing content.   That doesn't mean we have to like or agree with the show or their characters. (See Me with Shonda Rhimes.  I grow to hate her shows and want to slap her main female leads but I admire what she has been able to build.)

 

If the writers main goal is propaganda for a cause... well that's troubling

I don't know what the writers intend but what would be troubling about it?  Some of the greatest fiction literature, some of the greatest music, some of the most impactful plays and some of the most influential poetry have messaging or propoganda at their cores.  The artists wanted to prove a point and they knew the best way to get someone to listen was to entertain.  They aren't mutually exclusive.

[wayne67]

Feminist can also relate to feminism or be a representation of that feminism.  All things being equal, that women write the show shouldn't mean much.  But things aren't equal behind the scenes.  (Or in front of the scenes for that matter.)  So any time a woman makes the choice to write a television show and is granted that opportunity, it is a feminist move.  It doesn't mean that the show is about some serious mission to push a cause.  It is pushing a cause, however, by its mere existance and in helping increase the diversity of the creative minds producing content.   That doesn't mean we have to like or agree with the show or their characters. (See Me with Shonda Rhimes.  I grow to hate her shows and want to slap her main female leads but I admire what she has been able to build.)

 

I don't know what the writers intend but what would be troubling about it?  Some of the greatest fiction literature, some of the greatest music, some of the most impactful plays and some of the most influential poetry have messaging or propoganda at their cores.  The artists wanted to prove a point and they knew the best way to get someone to listen was to entertain.  They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

I'm not sure how a female writing a show is somehow a feminist move by default but I'm just going to agree to disagree with that assertion.

As for Shonda Rhimes I lasted about a season and a half with Scandal and a season and a bit with HTGAWM, in my opinion the plots never really hold together that well and the characters become heavily flanderized way too fast for my liking. 

 

There's not a problem with a artist having a higher purpose to their work for example I've written a somewhat long satirical series lampooning the ineffectiveness of superheroes. The problem is when the agenda becomes too overt or when viewers spend more time trying to decode hidden messages and trope than enjoying the work.

 

I hate a few of the characters and if they continue along this path I'll probably not make it to the end of the season but for the moment I'm trying to enjoy the song and dance routines without overthinking how stupid the overall premise and characters often are. 

 

That said I've seen nothing particularly representative of the feminist agenda either its stated goals or it's usual modus operandi so I'm not really sure what any of this has to do with anything. 

 

But back on the topic of the actual episode or at least something relating to it. How widely watched was the Music Man. I've seen quite a few pop culture references to it but have never seen the actual movie. Is it worth bothering watching?

 

Also how random was it that Rebecca said hot water was a drug?

[Snarklepuss]

I think that it's not just the relationships on this show but the characters themselves that are "more nuanced than that".  In real life people are not uni-dimensional.  They contradict themselves and are complicated.  I think most of the characters on this show are like that in one way or another so it's hard to peg them easily.  Rebecca can see herself as a feminist but contradict herself in practice with Josh.  Darryl can think he's straight but then find himself attracted to a guy.  White Josh can basically see himself as out of Darryl's league but find himself departing from his usual type for him.  I don't think other explanations like money being the motivator are necessary to have it make sense.  People in real life often don't make sense and that's one thing I like about this show.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[SmithW6079]

White Josh can basically see himself as out of Darryl's league but find himself departing from his usual type for him. I don't think other explanations like money being the motivator are necessary to have it make sense.

From what little we've seen of White Josh, there's nothing to indicate he's a mercenary gold digger looking for a sugar daddy -- if anything, I could see Valencia in that role. I think he's just a bro who likes hanging with his bros.

But I'm totally slashing Josh and White Josh now (and since White Josh is gay, I'm halfway there). Those boys are hot.

Edited February 26, 2016 by SmithW6079

[Rinaldo]

But back on the topic of the actual episode or at least something relating to it. How widely watched was the Music Man. I've seen quite a few pop culture references to it but have never seen the actual movie. Is it worth bothering watching?

I would absolutely say so, to both questions. (There was a moderately deep discussion of it in the TCM topic last summer.) It certainly seems to be known to many, and both the stage show and the movie were a big part of pop awareness when I was growing up, and they seem to remain so except among those with an anti-musicals outlook.

 

I said my say about it in that TCM discussion, but to try to keep it brief here: its story is one of the specifically American contributions to archetypal plot scenarios: the con artist outsider who, unknown to himself, can actually do the things he pretends to do, and ends up being welcomed into the community for his contribution. Harold Hill plans to swindle the people of River City by promising them a children's band he has no intention of providing. But in fact while he's in town he turns a squabbling school board into a barbershop quartet, turns a gaggle of gossipy town ladies into a happy modern dance troupe, turns the town "bad boy" into a drum major, and gives an unhappy young boy a cornet and a new outlook. The librarian / music teacher, who had planned to expose him, comes to see how much he has enriched the lives of everyone, including her (and himself). It's often thought of as a bit of froufrou nostalgia, but it has depths that it took me decades to see.

 

And the movie version, to my mind, is the best, most faithful and satisfying adaptation of a stage musical there is.

[ToxicUnicorn]

Darryl: You're gay? No one's ever mentioned that.

White Josh: Well everybody knows. It's not a big deal.

Darryl: Maybe your nickname should be Gay Josh instead of White Josh because then people would know what's up.

White Josh: Why? We don't call Greg Straight Greg.

I loved this exchange a lot.  The way the show is choosing to nickname its characters is one of my favorite running gags: (Josh/White Josh; Beans - but because of beanie babies), (not Gay Josh because everybody knows and it's not a big deal).  I also thought it was worth repeating the joke about mixed race babies (it was much funnier the first time, granted, but I laughed at the two women losing their minds over those cute babies).  It all feels refreshingly new and as if the timing is finally right for these jokes to be received in a lighthearted way.

 

I think I would support the show for those jokes alone, if only because it warms my heart to know that we've come this far in my lifetime.

 

I also enjoyed the running joke about the mixed influences on the food names and recipes, and the one line in the Shakira spoof about the bastardization of culture.  Those digs were funnier than all of the rest of the plot combined.  Frankly, I wouldn't mind if the writers shifted a bit more weight toward skewering culture and lightened their focus on all the romance-related shenanigans.  

 

I didn't like the songs as much this week and thought the show wasn't as creative as it usually is, but it was still fun to watch.  I'm glad to hear more people are finding it.