S04.E13: Sins Of The Father

[33kaitykaity]

I agree, there was entirely too much scenery-chewing by everybody in this episode.  

 

I'm new to the Arrow universe, but Malcolm Merlyn has almost achieved Hans Gruber/Hannibal Lecter/Maleficent level villain love for me.  It's not just that John Barrowman is beautiful and oh so capable, but kill Malcolm and you kill so much source potential for continuity of story.  By contrast, on my favorite soap, leading man is an antihero and so the show brings in enemy after enemy after enemy for him to inevitably defeat.  It's lather/rinse/repeat because the leading man can't lose and a total snore.  I mean, I can even see MM leading Darkh down the primrose path with this William tip just because MM always has a hidden agenda and you never know what he's going to do next.  

[bijoux]

No! Because Malcolm didn't die in the Central City timeline.

 

/science

 

Didn't he? I mean, I know he wasn't shown on screen, but he was in Central City when it happened and if people got burned to a crisp both at the warehouse and at the farm, I imagine the whole city was consumed.

 

Honestly the best line of the night for me was from Oliver:

"You don't have to be funny for me, you know that right?" 

 

It's a rather simple statement but if you dig deeper it shows just how much Oliver understands Felicity. How Felicity sometimes uses humor as a defense mechanism. Which makes perfect sense to me. It's simple statements like these that make me love this couple all the more. I'll have to give the writers kudos for this line and this line alone. 

 

That was wonderful. He doesn't let her brush her emotions off because they matter and he gives her the space to experience and express them. Once he gets cured of his bouts of stupid, he's going to be the best husband.

 

Calling it now, Malcolm's playing Darhk as well. He lost the League (that shot of him watching the ring melting was a thing of beauty, I thought he was going to jump in after it), so here's Darhk with his own evil organization. Malcolm's probably planning on double or tripple crossing him to take the reins. Once that falls through he can apply at ARGUS.

 

I have to say, that rooftop fight was over before it started. Did Oliver remember he left a stove on so he was in a hurry to turn it off? And to buy some curtains for his and Felicity's bedroom because Malcolm's line about knowing everything about him was beyond creepy. I'm also pleased to note that Malcolm made time to gather intel on Oliver and not, let's say, on ways to cure his daughter. 

[apinknightmare]

Didn't he? I mean, I know he wasn't shown on screen, but he was in Central City when it happened and if people got burned to a crisp both at the warehouse and at the farm, I imagine the whole city was consumed.

Yes and no. I guess all the residents of Central City died in the original timeline, but for "death comes for everyone" purposes, the only ones who count are the members of Team Arrow that we saw die onscreen.

[looptab]

I need a gif of the face Oliver makes after Felicity tells him he gave her the idea to test him. He was like "Me? Are you sure?"

[cambridgeguy]

I'm actually stunned that Felicity wasn't listening in on the conversation when Malcom told him he knew about William.  She's definitely eavesdropped before (it's how she knew Barry was the Flash) and there should have been microphones in that room for security purposes. 

 

While she's going to dump Oliver when this all comes out I'd like to think that Felicity, unlike Oliver, will have a better plan to protect William than the "don't threaten me" nonsense he's decided on.  Since they're in Central City she should ask Barry to zip him and his mom over to Earth 2.  That place is fantastic and Harry's rich enough to make sure they don't become hobos.  Plus, it's not like Oliver will ever get a chance to see the kid again since Samantha can rightly point out that it's his fault that she and William are targets.

 

Speaking of Malcom, shouldn't he have bled out on the roof?  At least a minute passed between the chop and the scene cutting and no one did a thing to stop the bleeding. It's not like Oliver was using a lightsaber, although that would have been a lot cooler.

Edited February 11, 2016 by cambridgeguy

[johntfs]

I kind of want to see more of Samantha.  Anna Hopkins as Berlin had to deal with Datak and Stahma on Defiance.  Damien Darkh is a piker compared to those two.

 

 

Oooh, there's a plot for Season 5.  Datak and Stahma Tarr come from Earth-Toilet-On-Fire and start fucking things up in Star City.

[benteen]

Oliver is a bigger moron than I thought if he doesn't think Malcolm won't go after his son.

 

And that is why Oliver can't publicly acknowledge his son even if Samantha wanted him too although not telling Felicity is still ridiculous. 

[theacostov]

Agree with everything @dtissagirl said.

This was the episode that took me from being quite mad at Oliver in the last episode to actually feeling a bit sorry for him. I don't know if it's intentional by the show but he doesn't seem to be aware that he's lying. It's like he's very ignorant to what is actually happening here and not at all aware of how things are going to blow up. I don't think he's being manipulative at all.

The problem I have with this is that it's quite out of character. I never would have thought Oliver was THIS stupid. I can't take this storyline remotely seriously anymore.

[apinknightmare]

If it wasn't for MG confirming that the trips to Central City Oliver mentioned last ep were actually to visit William, I honestly would've thought that Oliver had forgotten about the kid. Despite Malcolm revealing that he knows about William and Oliver inexplicably not being freaked out about that, he doesn't seem to be worried that this secret is going to come out, or in some kind of rush to lock Felicity into a marriage before she finds out. The lie (and the kid, honestly, given his reaction to Malcolm) seems to be a complete non-entity in his life in Star City at this point.

Like, literally no one seems to give a shit about the kid, not even his own parents, haha. Makes the whole plotty plot of it all even more idiotic.

[benteen]

Arrow unfortunately has at least one storyline that's dumb as hell every season.  Oliver knew there was a way to take Slade's power in Season 2 and says nothing about it for weeks. 

 

Nice to see Lance pop up this week but I had almost forgotten about him, he's been such an afterthought lately.

 

So Oliver defeated and killed Ra in combat and can now beat Malcolm Merlyn with ease.  So how is it that whenever he faces boy band reject Anarky he gets his ass kicked?  Even when Thea is fighting at his side?

[dtissagirl]

But the sad truth about the writing here is -- if MG told me right now that Baby Mama put some sort of magical whammy on Oliver that's legit blocking him, so he can't speak about the kid to his loved ones, I would believe it just as much as the ultimate compartmentalization I just rationalized so I can keep watching this mess.

[tv echo]

I thought that 413 was one of the worst episodes of this season (so far), largely due to the nonsensical A plot involving Nyssa, Malcolm and the League of Idiots.

 

At the top of the episode, Nyssa asks Oliver to kill Malcolm for her so that she can become Ra's.  At the end of the episode, when Oliver steps in to duel Malcolm in her place, Nyssa initially objects, saying, "I have never allowed anyone to fight my battles for me." Huh?  Isn't that what you did about 40 tv minutes ago?  And isn't Oliver just doing what you asked?  Do the Arrow writers even read their own scripts?! [Others above have also noted this contradiction.] 

 

The League assassins have become the Keystone Kops of the Arrowverse.  The League vs. League stunt fights looked amateurish.  Bamford should be embarrassed.
 

The blocking for the first Nyssa and Laurel conversation was really awkward. While Laurel is giving one of her speeches, she slowly and deliberately walks in a half circle around Nyssa until she ends up talking to Nyssa's back. Then Nyssa has to turn around to respond.  At first I thought Laurel was setting Nyssa up for a surprise capture.  But no, there was no point to it.  It reminded me of my high school theatre days when the director would tell me that I had to get  from point A to point B on the stage by the end of a certain line of dialogue.
 

Once again, Oliver easily defeats Malcolm for some inexplicable reason, despite Malcolm's many years of League training.  Subsequently, Nyssa becomes the new Ra's and promptly disbands the League, thus letting hundreds(?) of deadly assassins loose who are answerable to no one. I guess that's something else she learned from Laurel and Oliver - to let killers roam free.  Hey, I hear that HIVE and Shadowspire recently lost a lot of minions and may be looking for new members! [This was also noted by others above.]

 

So Malcolm tells Darhk about Oliver's son. Why didn't he also tell Darhk that Oliver was the Green Arrow?  Also, now both Malcolm and Barry (and Darhk) know about Oliver's son - and yet Oliver still won't tell Felicity. WTF?!  Samantha's demand for secrecy is pretty much moot at this point.

 

The only parts of this episode that I liked and thought were well done involved the B plot of Felicity's father, whose real name is now confirmed to be Noah Kuttler - although I would've also liked to have seen a scene between Donna and Noah.

 

Specifically, there were two little bits that I loved. One was when Felicity told her father that she hated herself as a child and thought she was broken and no one could ever love her.  The second was when Oliver told Felicity that she didn't have to be funny for him. [Great moment, as others have noted above.] These two lines gave me greater insight into both Felicity and the Olicity relationship.  Felicity's humor and quirky personality is her armor against the world that she adopted to protect herself and to hide her insecurities.  But she doesn't need that armor when she's with Oliver because he understands her [as wonderwall also noted above].  However, once Felicity finds out that Oliver lied to her and hid a big secret from her, it's probably going to make her feel like that abandoned, broken child again and that no one could love her.

 

Lastly, for all their worshipping of Joss Whedon, the Arrow EPs are going in a very anti-Whedon direction.  Whedon is all about found or created families, made up of unrelated and disparate individuals who band together.  On Arrow, blood ties apparently are paramount to everything else.  Thea had two 'real' fathers, Robert and Walter, but since Malcolm is her biological father, blood is what counts the most. Oliver has known/loved Felicity for almost four years and Thea for all of her life, and he only met his son about a month ago, but now Oliver loves William more than anyone else in the world.  Once again, blood is apparently what counts the most.

Edited February 11, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

But the sad truth about the writing here is -- if MG told me right now that Baby Mama put some sort of magical whammy on Oliver that's legit blocking him, so he can't speak about the kid to his loved ones, 

He made an Unbreakable Vow.

[TwistedandBored]

I knew the second half of the season started when Oliver started making stupid decisions and the whole episode was plot after plot. 

 

I hope we get Papa Smoak again. The whole Smoak family thing felt rushed. Mama Smoak and Papa Smaok didn't even have a scene where she is warning him off her daughter. Lame. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I'm glad the damn league is dead, but is a bunch of assassins as free agents actually good news?

I was wondering exactly what they were going to do. Turn Nanda Parbat into some kind of hip vacation destination and all the assassins can give up their training for being upscale resort hotel maids? Or will they all get on a plane and fly to a city to apply for jobs with resumes that say "job skills: good at following orders and killing people"?

 

On the other hand, there's Thea being the Sleeping Beauty (nice shooting schedule for Willa this episode)

She probably looked at the script and thought okay, put on pajamas and lie in bed this week - great!

[way2interested]

@tv echo, on your last point, I won't try to defend Oliver's logic for not killing Malcolm, but I don't think the show has completely supported blood ties. I mean, within the same episode we have Felicity rejecting her own biological father. Plus, Oliver isn't the one who said he loved William the most, Malcolm did in order to make his insight more appealing to Darhk. Heck, Darhk assumed Malcolm meant Felicity right off the bat, and I believe that Malcolm was just pseudo-projecting his feelings about Thea onto Oliver when putting Oliver into a "similar" predicament against Darhk. Oliver still loves Felicity and Thea more, or, at least, that's what the show has told me, since Oliver doesn't even seem to remember he even has a son it seems (412 line aside).

[benteen]

I thought that 413 was one of the worst episodes of this season (so far), largely due to the nonsensical A plot involving Nyssa, Malcolm and the League of Idiots.

 

At the top of the episode, Nyssa asks Oliver to kill Malcolm for her so that she can become Ra's.  At the end of the episode, when Oliver steps in to duel Malcolm in her place, Nyssa initially objects, saying, "I have never allowed anyone to fight my battles for me." Huh?  Isn't that what you did about 40 tv minutes ago?  And isn't Oliver just doing what you asked?  Do the Arrow writers even read their own scripts?! [Others above have also noted this contradiction.] 

 

The League assassins have become the Keystone Kops of the Arrowverse.  The League vs. League stunt fights looked amateurish.  Bamford should be embarrassed.

 

The blocking for the first Nyssa and Laurel conversation was really awkward. While Laurel is giving one of her speeches, she slowly and deliberately walks in a half circle around Nyssa until she ends up talking to Nyssa's back. Then Nyssa has to turn around to respond.  At first I thought Laurel was setting Nyssa up for a surprise capture.  But no, there was no point to it.  It reminded me of my high school theatre days when the director would tell me that i had to get  from point A to point B on the stage by the end of a certain line of dialogue.

 

Once again, Oliver easily defeats Malcolm for some inexplicable reason, despite Malcolm's many years of League training.  Subsequently, Nyssa becomes the new Ra's and promptly disbands the League, thus letting hundreds(?) of deadly assassins loose who are answerable to no one. I guess that's something else she learned from Laurel and Oliver - to let killers roam free.  Hey, I hear that HIVE and Shadowspire recently lost a lot of minions and may be looking for new members! [This was also noted by others above.]

 

So Malcolm tells Darhk about Oliver's son. Why didn't he also tell Darhk that Oliver was the Green Arrow?  Also, now both Malcolm and Barry (and Darhk) know about Oliver's son - and yet Oliver still won't tell Felicity. WTF?!  Samantha's demand for secrecy is pretty much moot at this point.

 

The only parts of this episode that I liked and thought were well done involved the B plot of Felicity's father, whose real name is now confirmed to be Noah Kuttler - although I would've also liked to have seen a scene between Donna and Noah.

 

Specifically, there were two little bits that I loved. One was when Felicity told her father that she hated herself as a child and thought she was broken and no one could ever love her.  The second was when Oliver told Felicity that she didn't have to be funny for him. [Great moment, as others have noted above.] These two lines gave me greater insight into both Felicity and the Olicity relationship.  Felicity's humor and quirky personality is her armor against the world that she adopted to protect herself and to hide her insecurities.  But she doesn't need that armor when she's with Oliver because he understands her [as wonderwall also noted above].  However, once Felicity finds out that Oliver lied to her and hid a big secret from her, it's probably going to make her feel like that abandoned, broken child again and that no one could love her.

 

Lastly, for all their worshipping of Joss Whedon, the Arrow EPs are going in a very anti-Whedon direction.  Whedon is all about found or created families, made up of unrelated and disparate individuals who band together.  On Arrow, blood ties apparently are paramount to everything else.  Thea had two 'real' fathers, Robert and Walter, but since Malcolm is her biological father, blood is what counts the most. Oliver has known/loved Felicity for almost four years and Thea for all of her life, and he only met his son about a month ago, but now Oliver loves William more than anyone else in the world.  Once again, blood is apparently what counts the most.

 

Wow, I can't really argue with anything that you wrote.  Your post again exposes how bad and nonsensical the writing on Arrow can be....like why Malcolm doesn't tell Dhark that Oliver is the Green Arrow (how DD doesn't know this already is beyond me).

[kismet]

I have 4 pages to catch up on& I need to go to sleep after a long night at work… but I wanted to get my thoughts down unfiltered & uninfluenced about that episode.

That episode was hysterical… it was boring, but a funny boring. Seriously the whole everyone in black chasing each other around like little kids on a playground shooting arrows that missed everything & everyone except the random civilan bystanders. It was like a bad game of cops & robbers, mask edition. They were also pretty heavy handed with the sins of the fathers droppings of all the bad the Dads did.

 

Nyssa – well they finally wrote her well again. Annoyed me that she kept on referring to her husband & sister-in-law. 

 

The ring - Is the actual ring really all that important? I’m asking seriously. Does the ring hold some power  that I forgot to learn over the last 3 years of random LoA plots on Arrow. Cuz one would think you could be Ras without the ring, but perhaps I am wrong. Also, I wouldn’y be surprised if MM cleaned up the molten metal & is forging his own evil demon’s head ring. One ring to secretly manipulate world power.

 

Malcolm – He was perfect tonight. Everything he did was totally in character. Never change MM. I didn’t see the arm being hacked off coming. It was not as shocking as I thought it would be. I don’t know if they made it less graphic or if I’m just watching too much violence in the media these days.

 

Poppy – Oh my goodness!!! Poppy had a scene that I genuinely enjoyed. It was probably one of my fav of the episode, when she spoke in Russian parables. Perhaps that is the scene they gave her to audition with, because for once I was actually invested in what she was saying.

 

Smoak Drama – It was boring & predictable. That being said, I loved TAmandes & EBR’s chemistry together and would love to see more from them. I’m glad they left it open ended, because I can’t wait for them to be able to interact again with a more interesting plot. I saw a couple foreshadowing moments when both OQ & her Dad told her “baby steps”. So perhaps she will see her father in OQ, and OQ choosing to have a relationship with his son will work in OQ favor. Also they were really heavy on the people don't change tonight. So perhaps when OQ's big lie is revealed, no one will be surprised. Not sure what DS is going to think about the BMD, she seemed pretty pissed at PapaSmoak & the whole not changing, so I could see her going either way.

 

OQ – he really is trying to change. His delusional belief in MM’s ability to change is something special. But I do get that he doesn’t want to take TQ’s opportunity for a possible “normal” parental relationship in the future. So much has been taken away from OQ without his choice that I get his desire to want to keep MM alive. I’m glad he finally admitted to hating MM & explained his POV.  That being said, I think MM is showing his true colors, so perhaps a few more convos with TQ and we might be able to get rid of MM for good, you know by s6 or so.

 

Lances – QL is ALIVE!!! Why bother killing him off, the show barely has him on anymore? Nice to see him again. LL powers of persuasion are pretty weak. Not surprised Nyssa didn’t bother to listen to her for most of the episode. Until the end, when it all backfired and now has set MM back on a revenge path.  If only LL had convinced Nyssa not only to be free, but to melt priceless jewelry in secrecy.

 

DD & MM – and so it begins… William is exposed. Dun dun dun...

[Primetimer]

The fathers on this show have not, on the whole, done a great job.

Read the story

[kismet]

Shallow things: Felicity/EBR looked stunning in that green dress. Also, I don't like Oliver's beige puffy coat. That needs to be burned. ASAP.

 

I'm scraping the barrel here. LMAO.

That coat was horrible. I think it was wardrobe's silent protest about how dumb the majority of this episode was. You wanna have a redux of s3 crossed with kindergarten recess... we're gonna give you fugly puffy coat!! It was right up there with the green horrendous shirt in the crossover...

 

We used to think that wardrobe had a blue/red theory going on... I'm beginning to think either way somebody in wardrobe has witty satirical eye when it comes to fashion choices on this show.

 

FS looked amazing all this episode though. I really do love EBR in green.

[Glory]

 

Don't care!! Malcolm Merlyn being unabashedly evil is my happy place. Go on, JB. Own this show. OWN IT.

 

Side note: I want Merlyn to kidnap Cisco and force him to build him a robotic hand of destruction. 

 

Side side note: I really want Merlyn and Cold to go eviling together. God, if you exist, make this happen!

[kismet]

Sometimes I'm a little slow, it only just now occurred to me that Malcolm's vengeance is trying to set Oliver up in the same situation as Malcolm feels he was.  He told Oliver there were bigger things at stake than just one person, even if that one person was his daughter and then asked Oliver if he'd hand over the city and let DD do whatever he wants even if William was the one at stake.  Well that's the exact scenario that Malcolm is orchestrating, isn't it. 

MM is still trying to be the master teaching his little protege a lesson... MM is always playing at some game.

[Delphi]

So is Donna just living at Lance's, at the loft? Is Barry running her back and forth from Starling to Vegas? It's so unclear.

[bijoux]

I was wondering exactly what they were going to do. Turn Nanda Parbat into some kind of hip vacation destination and all the assassins can give up their training for being upscale resort hotel maids? Or will they all get on a plane and fly to a city to apply for jobs with resumes that say "job skills: good at following orders and killing people"?

 

My theory is they've been aching to open a branch of Bed, Bath and Beyond in NP. Or export the candles they mass produce.

[kismet]

OK, I'm getting kind of ragey over the end of the last Olicity scene, and I'm hoping to get talked out of it.

 

I've managed to not let the BM secrets and lies ruin my appreciation for Olicity scenes, all the way up through even the last one, until Oliver's re-proposal. I remember how much we worried about the BM lie tainting the original proposal, and that mostly didn't come to pass because the lead up during the episode was so great and it happened kind of under extenuating circumstances. But tonight Oliver proposed while fully aware of the original lie, all the lies he's been telling when he's been visiting the kid, and the fact that the kid is not a secret anymore. But instead of coming clean to Felicity he wants to rush her into marriage? Why? Because he thinks that she'll be less likely to dump him after they get married? Especially since he brought it up right after she reaffirmed that he was the man she loved, it felt like he was trying to lock her down, for lack of a better phrase, before she gets relevant information that would change her mind. 

 

Am I reading the scene wrong? For some reason it's bugging me more than anything else Oliver has done in this stupid storyline.

I had not even seen the scene. But had saw a spoiler on Twitter about OQ reproposing, which is why I came up with my theory in the spoiler thread that they are gonna push up the wedding to be before the BMD lie reveal. Timing of it would be a bitch, but I wouldn't put it past these writers. So even without seeing the scene, it's placement in the script makes me think similar thoughts to yours. But not because OQ is thinking like that, but because the Arrow Writers Room is thinking like that.

 

Having seen the scene, I'm falling somewhere between OQ wants to lock it down before it is taken away from him or he is just really running out of juice. My heart wants to believe that he just wants one happy thing to happen before the inevitable bad things start to happen with DD (his 2 wk vacation is almost up, esp now that he is placed in MM's crosshairs again. I honestly don't think he is even thinking about the BMD ruining his life. I think he is just grasping at straws to make something good happen. It's been a rough couple of weeks. He nearly lost both FS & TQ in near-death events. Life is short, carpe diem, why make love wait is what I think OQ is thinking. He's leading with his heart not his head.

[way2interested]

Poppy – Oh my goodness!!! Poppy had a scene that I genuinely enjoyed. It was probably one of my fav of the episode, when she spoke in Russian parables. Perhaps that is the scene they gave her to audition with, because for once I was actually invested in what she was saying.

Same. I know that everyone likes to automatically slam the flashbacks, but I actually liked that last scene with Poppy and Oliver. It was completely undeserved from a story standpoint (since she suddenly switched from being really mad at him to advocating him to save everyone, plus the idea that she's trying to push him to a heroic decision is meh), but I actually liked what she was saying and how she said it and how it actually tied into the episode as a whole. It definitely wasn't the most fun or interesting flashback even of this season, but I thought it had something going for it at least this time around. 

[Orion]

I fast forwarded this episode with a very heavy hand but from what I did see -

 

I couldn't help being completely envious of Flashback Oliver as he snoozed peacefully through most of Poppy's scenes Solid plan, Oliver. Maybe next week they can paint the walls in the cell and we can all enjoy watching it dry.

 

Felicity: "Guys, the Calculator, you know the man who tried to kill 8,000 people last week and also sent mercenaries to try to kill  the team, is my Dad. I'm having a meeting with him to see if he is really bad, just go with that, but since I'm in a wheelchair and the only member of this team without a weapon maybe one of you can come with me? Just to make sure this isn't some sort of setup. I know Oliver is busy but, how about Digg? He used to work security in that building and he's not doing much this episode. No? Is it because we haven't reached the part of the season where the writers remember that he and I are friends? Okay, off I go."

 

I had a ton of conversations with my husband about why a super villain should have been Felicity's father and this episode illustrated all of my points. It was a story that they could half ass and stick in an episode that was already jammed packed. Skip most of the emotional moments and claim done. Sure they plan on having him back like they plan on having the Huntress back and how they had lots of stuff for Amanda Waller and Slade but now they are under no obligation to do it. Felicity's father done and done. At least if he had been the seasons Big Bad it would have forced them to deal with a story.

 

After a season and half of LOA it drives me absolutely insane that the writers STILL have not answer who the hell this group is. Do they have Geo-political goals? Do they kill for money? For fun? Can you hire them like the A-Team? "If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The LOA."  How do you even join them? It's not like all the members showed up with a super virus. Maybe if you show up with a case of Crystal Clear Pepsi and Zima for their hot tub parties they let you join.

 

Being a LOA minion can't be an easy job. It's got a high death rate and probably crappy dental but those guys go the extra mile. Special shout out to the guys who have to drag around those kettle fire pits everywhere they go; including having to get them up on a roof.

 

Nice swerve Arrow writers. I thought for sure since Felicity is stuck in the lair and Thea was there in their Med-level we might actually get a scene of those two talking. But they managed to avoid that. Good job.

 

I'm back to Youtube after this.

[popgoesculture]

 

On Arrow, blood ties apparently are paramount to everything else.  Thea had two 'real' fathers, Robert and Walter, but since Malcolm is her biological father, blood is what counts the most. Oliver has known/loved Felicity for almost four years and Thea for all of her life, and he only met his son about a month ago, but now Oliver loves William more than anyone else in the world.  Once again, blood is apparently what counts the most.

The thing that drives me nuts about it is this weird "ranking" system that they've got going on. That's not how actual love works. Like you don't have a mental ranking of who of your family and friends you'd place above the other (sister versus father, best friend versus partner, etc.), and for so many people, family is made, not something you're born into. Such clunky writing. (Like the constant repetition of the one through line per episode -- "some people don't change." We GET it. The audience is not as dumb as you seem to think, Arrow writers.) 

 

I keep trying to remember that at one point, Arrow was a more interesting show, but the turn this season into a retread of the worst of S3 is making that really hard to keep in mind. If they wanted a show with just Malcolm and Oliver (with a hurt Thea in the background), then do it. Don't waste ALL your other characters at the expense of the two who are the least interesting. 

[apinknightmare]

Same. I know that everyone likes to automatically slam the flashbacks, but I actually liked that last scene with Poppy and Oliver. It was completely undeserved from a story standpoint (since she suddenly switched from being really mad at him to advocating him to save everyone, plus the idea that she's trying to push him to a heroic decision is meh), but I actually liked what she was saying and how she said it and how it actually tied into the episode as a whole. It definitely wasn't the most fun or interesting flashback even of this season, but I thought it had something going for it at least this time around.

I can't even be appreciative of her finally making sense or having a purpose since she proved right at the beginning that apart from being a generally terrible person for letting people be killed for drugs that SHE was stealing, she's also the kind of moron who who gives up all of her leverage to negotiate with a baddie. She is completely useless IMO.

[kismet]

My theory is they've been aching to open a branch of Bed, Bath and Beyond in NP. Or export the candles they mass produce.

Don't forget the tapestries and the pillows... NP was sorta the perfect exotic hotel destination... but it could supplement it's income with a domestic line in your local department store.

 

NP - A destination for lovers with killer taste in interior decorating! Can't make the 5 min journey around the block, just pick up our candle at your local Target :) Can't get to a store, throw up some purple smoke signals and we'll bring the party to you :)

[bijoux]

And they have killer complimentary robes.

[doesntworkonwood]

I can't even be appreciative of her finally making sense or having a purpose since she proved right at the beginning that apart from being a generally terrible person for letting people be killed for drugs that SHE was stealing, she's also the kind of moron who who gives up all of her leverage to negotiate with a baddie. She is completely useless IMO.

I can't take anything she says seriously either because of her absurdly bad accent which seems to worsen her absurdly bad acting. At this point the flashbacks are only good for one thing, a chance for me to put the kettle on. 

[cambridgeguy]

 

That coat was horrible. I think it was wardrobe's silent protest about how dumb the majority of this episode was. You wanna have a redux of s3 crossed with kindergarten recess... we're gonna give you fugly puffy coat!! It was right up there with the green horrendous shirt in the crossover...

It would be in character for Oliver to not wear a coat in the first place. This is the man who explained his ridiculous short sleeves by saying he doesn't get cold, so why bother with jacket on a night when it's not cold enough to see your breath?  These people don't believe in armor anyway so you might as well go with a t shirt.

 

The sight of a mayoral candidate, the CEO of Palmer Industries, a supposedly dead mass murderer, and an assistant DA watching/participating in a duel on the roof a building that is definitely NOT the tallest one in the city could raise a few eyebrows but I guess any citizens who are left have lost the ability to be surprised.

 

I kind of wanted Malcom to say that they were forgoing the removal of shirts because he had been too preoccupied to maintain his usual exercise routine.  After all, nobody wants a head assassin who doesn't have those six pack abs.

Edited February 11, 2016 by cambridgeguy

[looptab]

This occurred to me after reading one of the reviews, but I guess this episode was the only way they could find to turn Malcolm back into a full on villain. They must have heard all the complaints, haha. Still, maybe they could have done it organically and not have Oliver shake his hand last episode, then chop the same hand off in this one.

[kismet]

I can't even be appreciative of her finally making sense or having a purpose since she proved right at the beginning that apart from being a generally terrible person for letting people be killed for drugs that SHE was stealing, she's also the kind of moron who who gives up all of her leverage to negotiate with a baddie. She is completely useless IMO.

Totally agree that she is completely useless as a character & ally. But what can I say I'm a sucker for the pep talks and this one even included a Russian parable! TBH, the Russian parable is probably what got me interested - between the Russian and the metaphor, I was invested in that scene. They could have had OQ hallucinate his Russian buddy, but the budget is tight.

 

The rest of the fb & Poppy scenes were standard borefest and proved that Poppy is probably the least qualified person to be assisting OQ at anything. Here's hopping she's better with a shovel than she was with harvesting tools. I know OQ was supposed to be recovering, but SA looked legit asleep in some scenes.

[calliope1975]

Yes and no. I guess all the residents of Central City died in the original timeline, but for "death comes for everyone" purposes, the only ones who count are the members of Team Arrow that we saw die onscreen.

 

I completely agree, but now I'm going to imagine every citizen of CC is having their own Final Destination moments. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I can't believe that's it for the Calculator storyline.  For some reason, I had the impression that he would be around for the entire back half of the season.  This is all they could give us after putting it off for so long and proclaiming that they wanted to do the story justice?  Major fail.

 

Oliver is a giant turd for not bothering to tell his fiancee that he planned on taking Nyssa's place in the fight with Malcolm.  I'm sure it would have been a barrel of laughs for Felicity to watch him get skewered if things had gone badly.

 

Why do Laurel's "heroic" moments involve stupid things like opening a car door and telling a guy to run away, or winking at little kids, or using them as human shields?  So freaking dumb.

 

It's all downhill from here, isn't it?  I just feel like we're at the midseason nosedive portion of the show.

[looptab]

Quarks you can list the fact that Laurel hides behind a car for most of the fight and then comes out from behind a car to do her second hair flip. to What a fail of a character.

Well, to be fair there were people shooting arrows, and she has only her stick. What was she going to do, punch the arrows away?

I can't believe I'm defending Laurel.

 

But the sad truth about the writing here is -- if MG told me right now that Baby Mama put some sort of magical whammy on Oliver that's legit blocking him, so he can't speak about the kid to his loved ones, I would believe it just as much as the ultimate compartmentalization I just rationalized so I can keep watching this mess.

Wait, so you think that the fact that Oliver's kid hasn't been mentioned until now and that he doesn't seem to have given a thought to him since the crossover is intentional, or is your way to justify the lazy writing within the story?

[lemotomato]

It's all downhill from here, isn't it?  I just feel like we're at the midseason nosedive portion of the show.

Episodes 13-19 the last two seasons were dark times. Looks like the pattern is holding true this year too.

[nksarmi]

While I understand people's frustration over Felicity's dad being "here and then gone" - it really does serve to prove just how much of a badass hero she is.  Felicity apparently had some real issues caused by her dad's absence in her youth (I REALLY wish they had skipped that because not every girl who grows up without a dad ends up having issues because of it - some of us adjust) and sure, the little girl in her wanted to believe her dad's song and dance story about being a "vigilante" rather than the scumbag her mom thinks he is (and Donna was just all kinds of awesome in that scene!).

 

But when she tested him and he flunked - SHE passed with flying colors.  No, well if I keep giving him 1,001 chances - maybe he will change.  No, well he's blood so I have to help him. None of that crap. Just call the cops and be done with him.  Yea, sure this is Arrow and it will probably come up again - but Felicity is EXACTLY the kind of strong she should be.

 

Contrast that to Oliver and Malcolm.  And Oliver fails on so many levels.  I know - no jail can hold the Magician blah blah blah (try the jail cell next to Slade or the one that held the Trickster in Central City just for fun) but let's see what we have here - Malcolm is the evil guy who set a plan of action in motion that killed more than 500 people, including his son Tommy.  He is the guy responsible for the Gambit blowing up which led to Robert Q's death, Oliver's five years of hell, and Sara's joining the League to begin with. He made it crystal clear that he considered Tommy a failure and "loved" Thea because she was stronger (ie more messed up and capable of being made into a killer).  But here's the thing - I'm 99% sure that while Malcolm rather likes Thea - he's biggest motivation has been using her as leverage against Oliver.

 

Because let's review what having Malcolm as a "dad" has meant for Thea:

 

Since Thea has had Malcolm in her life as her "father" - he drugged her and forced her into killing her friend, set her up in Ra's sights so that Oliver would fight him and take the fall, set Oliver up in Ra's sights as some kind of prophesized heir, and created the situation that put Ra's blade through Thea's heart, landed her in the pit, and gave her the blood lust to begin with.  And all of this happened just so Malcolm could manipulate Oliver into handing the LoA over to him.  While the Undertaking might have been Malcolm big evil plan in season one - I am positive that all he has been doing since he came back in season two was working on getting the LoA. 

 

That's why Malcolm wouldn't sacrifice power to save Thea (duh! Oliver!).  He already risked Thea multiple times to get that power.  And Oliver CAN'T see it.  Because Oliver is dumb.

 

Now that Oliver has taken away the thing that really DOES mean everything to Malcolm - Malcolm is going to get revenge and he TELLS Oliver that.  And Oliver's first thought isn't - oh shit, he might go gunning for William.  I better brief the team STAT. 

 

There are time when I really cannot stand how dumb Oliver is.

Edited February 11, 2016 by nksarmi

[Guest]

New day, new thoughts. 

 

Before I go to the bitterness thread with this, I do see one good thing about Felicity's storyline with her dad. She still had her agency. She took part in it, she made the decisions. Donna didn't wander in and take over and make threats at her dad instead. Felicity was in control and she proved herself amazing and strong to turn her own father over to the Police. 

 

Meanwhile we have Thea unconscious with no say in what happens to her or her father (yet again) and Nyssa who asks 'her husband' to fight for her. They were totally removed from their own stories. So, in a way, I'm very glad that didn't happen with Felicity. 

Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[tv echo]

Here's the weird blocking that I was talking about in my above-posted review, beginning at the 1:05 mark - Laurel walks all the way around Nyssa while she's talking, then Nyssa turns around, why? (tbc, I consider this as a director fail)...

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

Here's the weird blocking that I was talking about in my above-posted review, beginning at the 1:05 mark - Laurel walks all the way around Nyssa while she's talking, then Nyssa turns around, why? (tbc, I consider this is a director fail)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4d9EV7bLMM

I can't get over Diggle and Laurel standing behind the columns. That was A+.

[Lady Calypso]

Well, to be fair there were people shooting arrows, and she has only her stick. What was she going to do, punch the arrows away?

I can't believe I'm defending Laurel.

 

Hey!!! She could have totally used her Canary Cry to knock down those arrows!!! If she can knock down six LoA members with her Cry, she can knock down some silly arrows flying at her face!!!

 

(If I put in more exclamation points, is the sarcasm detected?) 

[SmallScreenDiva]

The scene with Oliver looking at Felicity before slicing off Malcolm's hand was bugging me, in a good way, last night. I felt like I'd seen it before but for the life of me I couldn't remember. Thank Tumblr folks for their love of parallels:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wonderwall]

Another highlight of the episode was this line, I laughed so hard :'): 

 

 

[Happy Harpy]

Well, I waited about a day to watch it, and must have fast-forwarded 70 to 80% of the episode: The flashbacks and the LOA fest and Laurel. In other words I just watched the scenes where Felicity was in with her family, Oliver and/or Diggle (for the thirty second where OTA were actually together and alone).

 

They always find worst combinations, don't they? After Team Not-Arrow, here's Un-Team Arrow (Thea is gone, too). I saw Diggle, Laurel, Oliver together in the lair, as lively as a Walker and with horrible negative chemistry, and I hit the FF button. I threw up a little in my mouth at the idea that after killing Sara and Oliver to make place for Laurel, they now use Felicity in a wheelchair for the same purpose.

 

The Felicity/Noah stuff was great. Felicity reacted exactly as I expected with her dad, that's my girl! Donna was great as always -although, lack of continuity: she sounded a bit wistful/admirative when she talked about her ex imo, and now she's cold-cold-cold. Lance, always nice to see you. Diggle and Oliver had a short scene alone. This will be all for the positive.

 

So, I guess the BMD is about to explode. It will be without me. I need to enjoy what I watch and I won't enjoy this.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[Delphi]

The Felicity/Noah stuff was great. Felicity reacted exactly as I expected with her dad, that's my girl! Donna was great as always -although, lack of continuity: she sounded a bit wistful/admirative when she talked about her ex imo, and now she's cold-cold-cold.

I'd imagine it was pretty easy for Donna to put on a tone of star crossed, missed love when Felicity was younger with no idea about Noah and he wasn't in her life but would drop the facade the second he actually showed up. She didn't want Felicity to think of him as a bad guy if she didn't have to, she could let her keep the good memories untarnished. Poor Donna.

On another note, Felicity's expression on the roof when Ollie announced that he was Nyssa's husband was absolutely priceless.

[bijoux]

Donna was great as always -although, lack of continuity: she sounded a bit wistful/admirative when she talked about her ex imo, and now she's cold-cold-cold. Lance, always nice to see you. Diggle and Oliver had a short scene alone. This will be all for the positive.

 

Maybe I have rose colored glasses on due to how great Charlotte was in bringing out this new side of Donna's, but I can actually understand this in a way. It was easy to be nice about Noah when he was far away and likely never to return again. It's a whole different ball game now that he's back and could hurt her baby. I want this Donna to come out more. There were interesting shadess of Moira there.

Or what Delphi said.

[bijoux]

 

 

 

 

If this isn't a perfect parallel, I don't know what is.