S04.E13: Sins Of The Father

[statsgirl]

I think there was a lot of good in this episode:

 

1.  Felicity's arc with her father was very short but in terms of Felicity, it was pretty much perfect.  He wanted to get to know - and use -- her because of her skills.  She talked to her mother, listened (something unusual on this show where most just shut their ears if they don't want to hear it), and set a trap for her father.  He failed and more than just telling him to go, she called the police to arrest him, giving Quentin another 3 seconds of screentime.  Totally BAMF even without a mask and punching.

 

2.  Oliver is actually progressing rather than regressing as he did last season. Sure he listed all the things Malcolm has done and didn't kill him but at least he took the ring from him instead of joining his side.  Also, he kept his 'no kill' rule in rather a clever way.

 

I also like SA and EBR ad libbing the look and the nod. With them in, it looks like Oliver and Felicity worked out a plan beforehand, which also suggests Oliver's growth.

 

3.  There is finally movement on the LoA front.  I wouldn't have minded them being in the background and Nanda Parbat visited once a season, but I got tired of Malcolm al Ghul always popping into episodes this season and last and taking screentime while contributing nothing at all.

[strikera0]

I still can't believe that Stephen Amell hyped the Oliver/Merlyn showdown on social media. I know it's his job to promote the show, but that fight scene was total crap. I have no problem with Oliver defeating Merlyn considering that he's in better physical shape, but the fight was over in less than 30 seconds and it honestly looked like Merlyn wasn't even trying to win. It reminded me a lot of Oliver's battle against Nyssa last year. That was equally disappointing.

[Moya the Leviathan]

Cisco is tempted by the evil Reverb on Flash 2x13 --Welcome to Earth-2--

   "Wait, are you Cloud City Vadering me?"  <--actual dialog

 

Malcom Merlyn gets his hand chopped off on Arrow 4x13 --Sins of the Father--

 "Wait, Oliver, you can't Cloud City Vader me!  I'm Vader ffs" <---not actual dialog

[Carrie Ann]

I agree with the others who don't believe Oliver is being this manipulative. He really does want to be married to Felicity because he loves her that much.

 

But there's something else that I get from this hardcore compartmentalization that Oliver's been doing wrt the BMD. The writers are still avoiding writing this as an actual storyline. The secret is still being treated as a ticking bomb TO THE AUDIENCE, but not to Oliver.

[...]

It was even more glaring in this episode, because Malcolm's words to him were a ginormous threat, but Oliver's reaction was to 1. do nothing about it, because 2. must. keep. the. secret. a. secret.

[...]

Which brings me back to Oliver and Felicity. I know there's very very little internal logic to Oliver keeping a secret. He's keeping a secret because at some point in the near future, the ticking bomb will explode in his face, and Felicity will break up with him. That's the whole point of it.

 

The side effect here is that I remember Felicity telling Oliver in the erased timeline that telling her wouldn't be a burden -- that it would be a relief. And it makes me sad that the pretzel-like non-writing is making me think Oliver is ignoring/forgetting/has unlearned a side of Felicity that WE KNOW he knows well. He knows she's the best problem-solver he knows. He knows that if he needs someone to bounce off ideas and come up with solutions to ANYTHING AT ALL, she's the best person for the job, and that also, for quite awhile now, she's been his go-to person when he needs to do just that.

 

This whole post was perfect, but these two larger points especially. This looming BMD storyline is already a failure because the internal logic has fallen apart. It was shaky to begin with, that Oliver would agree to keep this secret when it makes no sense, etc. But now, Oliver is keeping the secret because the plot needs him to do that for a little while longer, but there's no other reason to keep it and every reason not to. At the very least in this episode, he needed to immediately reach out to Samantha to be like, "Uh, perhaps you heard I got engaged? And that my fiancee was then shot multiple times and is now paralyzed? Well, guess what, you and William are the next targets." And then he should say, "Look, the only person who can really help us here is Felicity. I'm telling her now, because that's in William's best interest and it's not up for discussion, bye." Again, the only reason he's not doing this is because the plot needs him to be very dumb a little longer.

 

And yes, the fact is that the show has done this to itself--they have unnecessarily contrived and complicated and delayed this to the point that it's making Oliver look stupid and myopic and delusional in brand new ways every week. Unfortunately, one of those ways is that it's making him look like he hasn't considered how Felicity could help here, and like it's more important to him to keep these things compartmentalized than it is to actually keep William safe.

 

So Malcolm tells Darhk about Oliver's son. Why didn't he also tell Darhk that Oliver was the Green Arrow?

[...]

Lastly, for all their worshipping of Joss Whedon, the Arrow EPs are going in a very anti-Whedon direction.  Whedon is all about found or created families, made up of unrelated and disparate individuals who band together.  On Arrow, blood ties apparently are paramount to everything else.  Thea had two 'real' fathers, Robert and Walter, but since Malcolm is her biological father, blood is what counts the most. Oliver has known/loved Felicity for almost four years and Thea for all of her life, and he only met his son about a month ago, but now Oliver loves William more than anyone else in the world.  Once again, blood is apparently what counts the most.

 

I had the exact same question about MM not telling DD that Oliver is the GA. No clue, honestly.

 

And that second point is extremely irritating to me. I LOVE found-family stories, and that's what drew me to Arrow in S1. I basically hated the way everyone who knew "Ollie" treated Oliver when he came back, so none of those relationships were appealing to me. I stayed for Diggle, and then for Felicity. And I don't deny that this has been an element of the show from the start--Tommy's relationship with Malcolm, for example--but it really feels like the show/MG are in support of the idea that Blood Counts Most. And that's really freaking weird, and not all that interesting to me. Particularly when the parties share no history, like Thea and Malcolm or Oliver and William, and even Felicity and Noah to some extent. Don't ask me to care about relationships that have no basis or depth aside from a sperm donation, and don't make your characters place a higher value on those relationships than the ones I've actually seen develop, okay, thanks.

 

So is Donna just living at Lance's, at the loft? Is Barry running her back and forth from Starling to Vegas? It's so unclear.

 

Here's my headcanon, since the show doesn't feel like explaining: I think she's living in Starling--let's say in a long-term residence hotel situation, or maybe Felicity found her some sort of other rental setup--at least since Felicity's injury, but perhaps since before that for some reason? So she's either quit her job, or is on extended leave. I buy that she would do this because of Felicity's paralysis, and it just makes the most sense for why she just pops up with no warning or fanfare.

 

My theory is they've been aching to open a branch of Bed, Bath and Beyond in NP. Or export the candles they mass produce.

 

Honestly, the LoA Advance Team has a great future in conventions and expos! They show up to these cities, find a proper venue, set up all their weird torches and fire bowls, smelting gear, weapons and giant weapons chests. Everything a group of assassins could need. Hope Nyssa thought to cancel their FedEx account!

 

Maybe I have rose colored glasses on due to how great Charlotte was in bringing out this new side of Donna's, but I can actually understand this in a way. It was easy to be nice about Noah when he was far away and likely never to return again. It's a whole different ball game now that he's back and could hurt her baby. I want this Donna to come out more. There were interesting shadess of Moira there.

 

She was so fantastic in that scene. I've been quite happy with Donna providing a little bit of spice and didn't want them to overdo it with her, but CR is capable of so much more, and if the writing provided for it (next season, since clearly they can't do it justice this season--they couldn't even give it room to breathe for two episodes, sooooo), I would be glad to see her more often, as a more balanced presence on the show.

[kes0704]

I couldn't help being completely envious of Flashback Oliver as he snoozed peacefully through most of Poppy's scenes Solid plan, Oliver. Maybe next week they can paint the walls in the cell and we can all enjoy watching it dry.

Don't forget, next week we will be enthralled watching them dig...for something or other but your suggestion about watching paint dry would probably be more exciting! :)

[Password]

The only times I felt at all engaged in this episode were when Felicity showed up. Otherwise, what a snoozer.

It's unreal how much I agree with this statement. When did I become so Felicity dependant?

[ketose]

The rationale for not killing Merlyn made me painfully aware that I was watching a TV show. Every argument sounded like this in my head.

 

"Merlyn killed a bunch of people that you love and a lot of innocent people. He was the kingpin of the plot that you came to Starling City to stop in the first place. Why won't you kill him?"

 

"The writers and the fans like him."

 

"Oh. Maybe we should stop talking about it, then."

 

"No, the writers love writing this redemption gibberish."

[Xenith22]

So Malcolm tells Darhk about Oliver's son. Why didn't he also tell Darhk that Oliver was the Green Arrow?

At first I was confused about that, but thinking about it some more it makes sense to me that he would not offer this info.  Malcolm's current goal is to make Oliver suffer, while not harming his daughter killed.  At the moment Malcolm probably believes DD just sees Oliver as an political adversary.   An minor annoyance at best.  He's probably pretty confident that his wife can win the election on her own, or that he could maybe manufacture a little dirt or something to secure her win.  The Green Arrow on the other hand is a potential legitimate enemy to all his plans who must definitely be dealt with.

 

If DD learns that Oliver is the Green Arrow he may:

- Outright try to kill Oliver instead of bothering to make him suffer.

- Decide that going after William is not enough and go after other people in his life like Thea too.

- Out Oliver as the Green Arrow potentially exposing/endangering Thea to other enemies seeking revenge.

 

None of these are what Malcolm wants.  Instead he just wants to manipulate DD into going after his chosen target to make Oliver suffer and thus he keeps the GA info to himself.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Xenith22

[Chaos Theory]

I thought the Dark Archer is Oliver Queen's greatest nemesis? Or do I have that wrong?

I can buy the Dark Archer knowing Oliver so well because he knows Oliver so well. However the writing has been off for Oliver at least. I actuallylije that it is Merlin who knows about Oliver's kid. Could it be the kid who dies and gets Oliver to finally go after Malcolm Merlin?

[bijoux]

I also like SA and EBR ad libbing the look and the nod. With them in, it looks like Oliver and Felicity worked out a plan beforehand, which also suggests Oliver's growth.

 

I'm not sure it works with their lines about his crazy ideas,but I do like it. But it does speak to them being a team, which I definitely like.

[Commando Cody]

 

 

 

Side note: I want Merlyn to kidnap Cisco and force him to build him a robotic hand of destruction. 

 

 

 

 

He could be like Mister Han Man with interchangeable hand parts. 

 

 (Bad language/Violence}.  Edited February 11, 2016 by Commando Cody

[TobinAlbers]

The rationale for not killing Merlyn made me painfully aware that I was watching a TV show. Every argument sounded like this in my head.

 

"Merlyn killed a bunch of people that you love and a lot of innocent people. He was the kingpin of the plot that you came to Starling City to stop in the first place. Why won't you kill him?"

 

"The writers and the fans like him."

 

"Oh. Maybe we should stop talking about it, then."

 

"No, the writers love writing this redemption gibberish."

 

It really is a cheat. The only way they feel they could justify Oliver killing Malcolm is if Malcolm is in the heat of the moment about to kill a helpless, innocent person and there is literally no other way to save that person other than take him out. And even last season Oliver found Malcolm about to kill the thug that killed his wife but they stacked the deck for Oliver since the guy Malcolm was killing murdered his wife and Tommy's mother and so 'deserved it' and because Oliver was ultimately able to talk him down using the Thea card because it was Oliver's big return from the dead and he was winning at everything.

 

But the writers will never write Oliver and Co. catching Merlyn in the act red handed of killing someone until they're ready to really put him down. Until then Merlyn has other people do his dirty work with him off at a distance. Part of me thinks that they want a resurrected Tommy to be the one to kill him but with CD full time on Chicago Med and employed for at least another season, his schedule probably won't allow him to return for a satisfying arc that culminates in the 'shocker' of corrupted Tommy being the one to dispatch Daddy Merlyn.

 

And when Malcolm's time comes, money says it'll be a mercy killing rather than one done in revenge. Malcolm will have been fatally wounded by whatever that season's big bad is and will have somehow saved the city and will be 'redeemed'.

Edited February 11, 2016 by TobinAlbers

[bijoux]

Is it odd to find the fact that Felicity needs to plan the wedding strange? Because Oliver is so the party planner in that relationship.

[arjumand]

And that second point is extremely irritating to me. I LOVE found-family stories, and that's what drew me to Arrow in S1. I basically hated the way everyone who knew "Ollie" treated Oliver when he came back, so none of those relationships were appealing to me. I stayed for Diggle, and then for Felicity. And I don't deny that this has been an element of the show from the start--Tommy's relationship with Malcolm, for example--but it really feels like the show/MG are in support of the idea that Blood Counts Most. And that's really freaking weird, and not all that interesting to me. Particularly when the parties share no history, like Thea and Malcolm or Oliver and William, and even Felicity and Noah to some extent. Don't ask me to care about relationships that have no basis or depth aside from a sperm donation, and don't make your characters place a higher value on those relationships than the ones I've actually seen develop, okay, thanks.

 

Yes! Absolutely!

 

You know, once Malcolm started his "I saw her as a baby, and [mawkish bullshit redacted]", I had a sudden flashback - I know, right? Creepy! It was May 2013, Oliver and Malcolm were fighting on a rooftop, and this happened:

(and I tried to upload a gif but it was too big, so here, have a frame)

 

 

I think I captured the exact moment when Malcolm says:

 

"Don't worry - your mother and your sister will be joining you in death!"

 

How come I remember all this, but Oliver's forgotten? Or is it the show that's forgotten? Blech.

[statsgirl]

6. This might be just me, but I was kinda looking forward to Thea getting to deal with her bloodlust on her own, instead of having a bunch of people fight over her cure.  And why not tell her that you just cut off her father's hand, Oliver? She's just had a magical flower potion. She can handle

Poor Willa Holland.  Just like last season, her plot was taken over to service the men in her life, Oliver and Malcolm.  While I'm grateful that Arrow isn't as bad as The Flash in using the female characters as props, I wish Thea would have had more agency in her own life.

 

That jacket was AWFUL.  Who let that on set?  I think it was the most unflattering thing he's ever worn.  And I really dislike the new Arrow suit, but this was worse than that, even.

It was truly awful, as bad as the plaid shirt.  I'm constantly amazed at how they can make SA look unattractive.  (Although to be fair, he does that to himself off-set with the bad shorts and the baseball hats.

 

The guy has a very muscular body which translates into boxy unless they put him in fitted clothes. Wardrobe, please take note.

 

I'm still undecided on how to feel about that last scene, but I liked reading everyone's thoughts on it! Have some pretty gifs! (source)

 

 

I like how it was Felicity putting her hands up to Oliver's face in a reversal of their usual kisses.

But it seems like Oliver isn't even thinking about telling Felicity, because he's not at all trying to look for a solution to his ~dilemma. He's keeping the secret kid completely separated from Felicity, which is why he can ask her to marry him again, and truly mean it.

 

Which is super sad and disheartening, but not in the Oliver-is-a-manipulative-douche way. Just in a Oliver-needs-some-serious-therapy way, because this high level of compartmentalization is borderline creepy, and it's also making him overlook one of Felicity's greatest skills.

Great fanwank.

 

Hamartia, the hero's tragic flaw.  Who knew they were writing classic drama?

[bijoux]

I like how it was Felicity putting her hands up to Oliver's face in a reversal of their usual kisses.

 

Is it really? I mean, yes, their first kiss had that, but I don't really recall one after it with Oliver holding her face.

[dtissagirl]

The thing that drives me nuts about it is this weird "ranking" system that they've got going on. That's not how actual love works. Like you don't have a mental ranking of who of your family and friends you'd place above the other (sister versus father, best friend versus partner, etc.), and for so many people, family is made, not something you're born into.

 

This is so weird -- I used to be friends with someone who actively did this. She would legit rank her friends and family into top tens or whatever. I had no idea she did it for years, until one day she told me because she wanted to ~put me in my place~ by making it clear where in the rank I was [not that high, obviously]. That was the first clue I got that maybe I should run the opposite way.

 

But that is a level of compartmentalization of feelings that was attached to some pretty worrying mental health problems, which Malcolm clearly has, so if he ranks the people he loves, it probably makes sense to his crazy bananapants brain, but even the hint that Oliver might do it too gives me hives. Yikes.

 

Wait, so you think that the fact that Oliver's kid hasn't been mentioned until now and that he doesn't seem to have given a thought to him since the crossover is intentional, or is your way to justify the lazy writing within the story?

 

Well, per MG he's visiting the kid on the regular, so he's thinking about him. Even though we got the least clear line of dialogue ever about it, because this isn't even telling instead of showing, it's low-key maybe implying instead of showing.

 

But if Oliver has spared a thought about telling Felicity? Or if he feels bad about hiding the kid? Then the answer is I DON'T KNOW. Maybe it's lazy writing, maybe he really hasn't spared a thought about coming clear. My eight ball says it could go either way.

Edited February 11, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Delphi]

This is so weird -- I used to be friends with someone who actively did this. She would legit rank her friends and family into top tens or whatever. I had no idea she did it for years, until one day she told me because she wanted to ~put me in my place~ by making it clear where in the rank I was [not that high, obviously]. That was the first clue I got that maybe I should run the opposite way.

Damn MySpace and their top 8.

[statsgirl]

Compartmentalizing is how Oliver deals with internal conflict.  Malcolm is just BSC.

 

Is it really? I mean, yes, their first kiss had that, but I don't really recall one after it with Oliver holding her face.

He also did it in Nanda Parbat, I think.

SA said in an interview that it was all Stephen as opposed to being an Oliver thing.

 

I think SA and EBR are playing around with the Oliver/Felicity mirroring, as in 3x09 when Felicity did the thumb and index finger rubbing that Oliver does when he's agitated.

[dtissagirl]

And yes, the fact is that the show has done this to itself--they have unnecessarily contrived and complicated and delayed this to the point that it's making Oliver look stupid and myopic and delusional in brand new ways every week. Unfortunately, one of those ways is that it's making him look like he hasn't considered how Felicity could help here, and like it's more important to him to keep these things compartmentalized than it is to actually keep William safe.

 

This episode made it even more hilarious that Guggenheim was legit telling people on Tumblr that Oliver's keeping the kid a secret because it's the only way to have a relationship with him. Uh, Oliver, you know that you can't have a relationship with your kid if he's dead, right?

 

It's just such... odd writing. Really really awkward storytelling all around. This isn't a fatherhood storyline for Oliver. That would entail writing the kid as a full fledged character, instead of just a plot device. And there's no way for the audience to relate to the kid, nor to have any kind of reaction, good or bad, about Oliver as a father, or Oliver's relationship with William, BECAUSE WE DON'T SEE IT. Hell, last season was more of a fatherhood story for Oliver, with how they wrote his relationship with Thea.

 

And the kicker is I have no doubt -- and I'm pretty sure Oliver SHOULD know this? -- that regardless of how angry Felicity and Diggle would get at Oliver that he lied, they would stop at nothing to make sure BM and William are safe. They'd yell/punch/break up with Oliver later, but they'd do the job first.

Edited February 11, 2016 by dtissagirl

[TVHappy9463]

I didn't love it, I didn't hate it. Charlotte Ross was great. Cutting off Malcolm's hand was good, I wish the finger a wiggled a little when they showed it on the ground. The look on Barrowman's face when they burned the ring, was priceless. 

I will say this, if the show kills of the baby mama and or William, I will be truly shocked, but happy to be done with the story line.  Who else are Malcolm and Dahrk going to go after it works on many levels. 

Don't wimp out Arrow. 

[Xenith22]

It really is a cheat. The only way they feel they could justify Oliver killing Malcolm is if Malcolm is in the heat of the moment about to kill a helpless, innocent person and there is literally no other way to save that person other than take him out. And even last season Oliver found Malcolm about to kill the thug that killed his wife but they stacked the deck for Oliver since the guy Malcolm was killing murdered his wife and Tommy's mother and so 'deserved it' and because Oliver was ultimately able to talk him down using the Thea card because it was Oliver's big return from the dead and he was winning at everything.

Really Malcolm is just one in a long line of TV villains who the writers were too chicken to kill off because the character/actor was well-liked/charismatic.

They've done plenty of horrible unforgivable things and yet the good guys often refuses to actually take them out or let anyone else take them out season after season.  I mean off the top of my head he joins the likes of:

 

Spike (Buffy), Sylar (Heroes), Sark/Sloane (Alias), Crowley (Supernatural), T-Bag (Prison Break), Peter Hale (Teen Wolf), Penguin (Gotham,) could probably include the majority of the cast of the Vampire Diaries here too...

There are also plenty of additional candidates depending on how the current seasons end such as Juliette Silverton (Grimm), Grant Ward (Agents of Shield), and Blaine (iZombie).

 

Damn MySpace and their top 8.

Also phone Speed Dial where you had to assign people a number which often was viewed as a ranking of the people in your life. Edited February 11, 2016 by Xenith22

[Starfish35]

never mind - off topic.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Starfish35

[AES13]

I enjoyed it, even as I groaned over how bullheaded Oliver was about not killing Merlyn.  The biggest problem with that for me is, like the poster above, it forces me to think of the real world reasons why they keep John Barrowman around and thus takes me right out of the show.  Then I start thinking of all the ways they could have kept him around that would have worked better.  :(  This BS of him being Thea's blood relative is just not enough of a reasonto keep my suspension of disbelief alive.  

 

I legitimately laughed every time Nyssa referred to Oliver as her husband and to Thea as her sister-in-law.  I enjoy her as a bad ass and was sorry to see her treated as if she were merely being a headstrong, rebellious teen.  If they tranqued her, why couldn't Oliver tranq Merlyn and take the ring off?

 

Lastly, I truly wish they had switched the time proportions around on the 2 main plots.  Felicity's family drama was far more interesting and dramatic than the usual posturing by the League folk.  It was also far more believable and had more layers to be explored.  Instead, we got Dramatics! Fights to the Death! Threats to loved ones!  The trading of one McGuffin for another!  It was exhausting and uninspiring for me.

[Starfish35]

If they tranqued her, why couldn't Oliver tranq Merlyn and take the ring off?

Excellent point.

[ketose]

 

Really Malcolm is just one in a long line of TV villains who the writers were too chicken to kill off because the character/actor was well-liked/charismatic.

They've done plenty of horrible unforgivable things and yet the good guys often refuses to actually take them out or let anyone else take them out season after season.  I mean off the top of my head he joins the likes of:

 

Spike (Buffy), Sylar (Heroes), Sark/Sloane (Alias), Crowley (Supernatural), T-Bag (Prison Break), Peter Hale (Teen Wolf), Penguin (Gotham,) could probably include the majority of the cast of the Vampire Diaries here too...

There are also plenty of additional candidates depending on how the current seasons end such as Juliette Silverton (Grimm), Grant Ward (Agents of Shield), and Blaine (iZombie).

 

 

 

Also phone Speed Dial where you had to assign people a number which often was viewed as a ranking of the people in your life.

 

It's funny how David Anders ends up in that list twice. He's a charming guy, I guess.

[Lady Calypso]

Ok, I know this sounds dumb and it may not make sense initially, but Oliver not telling Felicity about the kid becomes less of an Oliver problem to me. Him lying about the kid goes against the growth that he has done. The reason for him lying is dumb. If there was another plausible reason, then I would buy it. But I oddly don't hate Oliver anymore. I'm annoyed, but I don't hate him and here's why: how can Oliver, as a character, be held fully responsible when the person who created this arc for Oliver (MG) cannot see the problem with his lies? Because MG is so blinded by his ego and the fact that he honestly thinks that what Oliver doing is the right thing, then it automatically defaults Oliver into believing he's doing the right thing too. It's bad writing and it's a bad thing for a showrunner to be so incredibly biased and stuck in their own fantasy and it affects the character as a whole. Their decisions become the showrunners' (or in this case, just one showrunner's) decision and now I just see Oliver as MG when the BMD story comes up.

 

I think it also goes to show in the other aspects, like Stephen Amell's acting this episode when the kid was mentioned. In his last scene with Felicity, SA chose to have Oliver act in a way that doesn't match up with the story that I think MG wants to tell. It unfortunately makes Oliver look like a giant tool, but I've finally accepted that this BMD storyline is so stupid, that whenever Oliver is onscreen and it comes up, I just picture MG's face because that's who Oliver becomes: Marc Guggenstupid's fantasy story that doesn't match up with Oliver as a growing character this season. 

 

Plus, if you take out the BMD story this season, almost nothing changes. They may have to adjust the storyline this episode (have Malcolm tell Darhk about Oliver being the Green Arrow instead, for instance), and they'd have to obviously change the crossover episode, but nothing changes with the season as a whole. 

[Primal Slayer]

 

These writers love driving a point home.

[EmeraldArcher]

I think there was a lot of good in this episode:

 

2.  Oliver is actually progressing rather than regressing as he did last season. Sure he listed all the things Malcolm has done and didn't kill him but at least he took the ring from him instead of joining his side.  Also, he kept his 'no kill' rule in rather a clever way.

 

I also like SA and EBR ad libbing the look and the nod. With them in, it looks like Oliver and Felicity worked out a plan beforehand, which also suggests Oliver's growth.

Adding to that all of the anvils about changing--In S1, Oliver killed the guys who kidnapped him and Tommy because "nobody can know [his] secret."  His secret at the time was basically that he became a bad ass, right? And, he was willing to kill to protect that secret, even if it soon became evident that Oliver wasn't a cold-blooded murderer without a conscience. In 4x13, William's existence has become one of the most important secrets Oliver has ever kept, as evidenced by his keeping it from Felicity and because of the huge risks to William's life should the secret get out to Oliver's enemies.  And yet, when a man Oliver professed to hate and distrust in this same episode revealed that he knew Oliver's secret, Oliver didn't kill him.  If there was ever a moment for Oliver to react by snapping Malcolm's neck and muttering "Nobody can know my secret," it was that moment.  So, definitely progression and more consistent hero behavior from the man who is supposed to be the show's hero. Finally!

[Trini]

Really Malcolm is just one in a long line of TV villains who the writers were too chicken to kill off because the character/actor was well-liked/charismatic.

They've done plenty of horrible unforgivable things and yet the good guys often refuses to actually take them out or let anyone else take them out season after season.  I mean off the top of my head he joins the likes of:

 

Spike (Buffy), Sylar (Heroes), Sark/Sloane (Alias), Crowley (Supernatural), T-Bag (Prison Break), ...

 

It's true (and really annoying). And cutting off Malcolm's hand reminded me Prison Break -- which is bad, because dismemberment actually made T-Bag stronger. So basically, Malcolm is more dangerous now.

[bijoux]

   If they tranqued her, why couldn't Oliver tranq Merlyn and take the ring off?

 

This was brouht up on Tumblr and someone pointed out that Malcolm still needed to be beaten for the Ra's title to be taken away from him. It makes sense as much as an LoA plot can. Though I think the twist of gifting the ring to your spouse is a new one. Then again, so was Malcolm's surviving Ra's sword deal. Incidentally, did Nyssa ever actually receive a sword wound from Malcolm, however small? Or did that bit just apply to dear old dad?

  

It's true (and really annoying). And cutting off Malcolm's hand reminded me Prison Break -- which is bad, because dismemberment actually made T-Bag stronger. So basically, Malcolm is more dangerous now.

Plus Malcolm's a reptile. I'm not sure if he can't just grow another one.

[catrox14]

LOOOOLL

 

So it was driving me crazy when @dtissagirl said I had called Malcolm knowing about William, so I went back to look...and well....I'm awesome.   LOL

 

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/3338-spoiler-discussion-thread/page-778#entry1792484

 

Quoting myself:

 

 

I'm going with Malcolm as the person that finds out about the kid. IMO he would defend Oliver's choice because Malcolm is BSC and a lying liar that lies.

 

HA!

 

[kismet]

I think SA and EBR are playing around with the Oliver/Felicity mirroring, as in 3x09 when Felicity did the thumb and index finger rubbing that Oliver does when he's agitated.

I really miss the nervous habit of OQ. :( It was so great in earlier seasons. And then when FS mirrored it, it was just perfection. I don't think they've shown it since somewhere early in s3.

[looptab]

Well, per MG he's visiting the kid on the regular, so he's thinking about him. Even though we got the least clear line of dialogue ever about it, because this isn't even telling instead of showing, it's low-key maybe implying instead of showing.

 

But if Oliver has spared a thought about telling Felicity? Or if he feels bad about hiding the kid? Then the answer is I DON'T KNOW. Maybe it's lazy writing, maybe he really hasn't spared a thought about coming clear. My eight ball says it could go either way.

I'm sorry, I don't think  I was clear enough in my previous post. I wasn't actually asking about Oliver thinking about the kid, I was referring more to your post about the compartmentalizing of the secret, if you think that's actually what the writers are telling or if it's a byproduct of their sucky writing :)

[dtissagirl]

I'm sorry, I don't think  I was clear enough in my previous post. I wasn't actually asking about Oliver thinking about the kid, I was referring more to your post about the compartmentalizing of the secret, if you think that's actually what the writers are telling or if it's a byproduct of their sucky writing :)

 

OH, sorry I misunderstood you. The answer is also I DON'T KNOW. But probably the sucky writing? "Oliver keeps secrets" being true to his character is their out, I guess.

 

The one thing I'm sure of is that they're not writing this in anyway resembling a proper narrative. It's like they're anti-writing this storyline. They're using the secret as a plot device bomb to be deployed at an arbitrary time in the future. Which is why Oliver's still keeping the secret, even though Malcolm just made it past the point where he really really shouldn't.

 

You can really see Guggenheim's prints all over it. Plot twist shocker epic game-changer gotcha! trumps his hero protagonist's characterization.

Edited February 12, 2016 by dtissagirl

[rtalive]

I really loved this episode. It was dynamic and had shock elements.

I think it was very interesting, that Felicity father found out that Felicity is Overwatch and, that she was the one who beat him and that she is as good and even better at the game than him. It was unclear if his interest was only because he wanted to use her or he really wanted to bond and get her on his side of the game, but the way Felicity tested him and took her revenge on him abandoning her and then trying to use her was one of the best parts of the episode. I like how she is no bullshit character, she doesn't ask others for opinion and what to do, because she just knows who she is. I would have loved though some Oliver and Calculator conflict, but maybe later on.

The other think I liked in this episode was Nyssa. Amazing character, so true to herself and her beliefs.

The way she fights for her rights and demands from Oliver to correct his mistake was very powerful for me and I like their dynamic. The way Nyssa was calling Oliver husband was a way of manipulating him in her favor and the things he told her right before he fought Mlacom proved that Oliver respects Nyssa and understands her and is on her side. Katrina Law is just such a good actress and has chemistry with all the cast and her fight scenes are always amazing. Her reaction to Oliver cutting Malcom's hand was a gem to watch. 

I like also how the episode was constructed. Oliver thought that Malcom is a changed man, because he was around Thea, showing concern and Oliver knew, that Thea was calling Malcom, when she needed help. So he knew that Malcom is part of her life and probably important one. He couldn't just take that away. But at the moment when Malcom told him that he won't sacrifice the power over Thea's life, Oliver realized that Malcom hasn't changed and that he is making mistake by giving him second chance. The way he tricked him was the best part, because there was a moment of surprise for Malcom and for everybody else.

Malcom took one of his own pills(In the previous Malcom/Nyssa confrontation Nyssa was not prepared for a fight with Malcom and he took this as advanatge to defeat her easily), he wasn't prepared to fight Oliver, he thought he would fight Nyssa and he was too confident and not in the right place of mind, and Oliver took this at advantage and with some quick moves defeated him. He didn't want to fight a fight to death, so to trick him also made this possible.

So the episode also showed two very different stories of fathers, and how two very different characters deal with them but in the end they both understand each other's choices and are proud of each other. I love when I can have the chance to watch two people who love each other are also partners but are so different in personality but they still work because they compliment each other.

[KirkB]

On the one hand I kind of understand Oliver's reasoning behind sparing Malcolm. He doesn't want to deprive Thea of her last living parent. He's afraid of what it might do to Thea, emotionally. On the other hand he's being an idiot, as per usual. Thea herself wanted Malcolm dead. She will never be able to forgive him for what he did to her or made her do to Sara. She helped arrange Malcolm being taken by the LoA, knowing full well he would not (or should not) have come out of it alive. More to the point, Oliver should not be making Thea's choices for her. She knows what is best for herself, not him. And even putting aside Thea it would be in the best interest of the world if, once and for all, Malcolm Merlyn was dead. It would suck to lose John Barrowman but when everyone and their mother is telling you this horrendously evil man needs to die, it's within your power to kill him, and you refuse, what he does from then on is as much your fault as his.

 

Ninja fights in the streets. Again. Why does anyone continue to live in Star City?

 

Honestly, I don't understand why Malcolm or Nyssa were in such a rush to lead the League. None of them can fight worth crap and for the most part the only people they hit with their arrows were innocent bystanders.

 

Neal Mcdonough must love getting a paycheck for showing up for thirty seconds at the end of the episode.

Edited February 12, 2016 by KirkB

[bijoux]

Malcolm is an ingrown toe nail in human form, but I can understand Oliver a) not wanting Thea to live with her bio dad's blood on her hands, and b) not wanting to be the one to off his sister's bio dad. But anyone besides the two of them wanting to take Malcolm out? He should be rolling out the red carpet and sharpening their weapon of choice.

[dtissagirl]

On the one hand I kind of understand Oliver's reasoning behind sparing Malcolm. He doesn't want to deprive Thea of her last living parent. He's afraid of what it might do to Thea, emotionally.

The problem for me here is for any of this to resonate while I'm watching is I have to believe this idea that Malcolm is in anyway a PARENT to Thea [parent being someone who parents, not someone who donated sperm]. And I know *Oliver* is into that bullshit, but it goes so far beyond the limits of my suspension of disbelief, that the entire motif of the narrative stops working before it even starts. I don't believe Malcolm is Thea's parent, and I CAN'T BELIEVE Oliver is stupid enough to think so.

[tarotx]

I don't understand why Laurel and Diggle deferred to Oliver on this one. 2 (or 3 cause lets me real, Felicity wants MM dead if she was to be asked) of the awake and present team members want to take out MM. Oliver is opposed. Out vote him. You aren't a team now but underlings? That's the part that annoys me. Oliver has trouble killing the people he knows so take him out of the equation. Laurel may not but Diggle understands war.

 

And I guess Nyssa wasn't in fighting shape since she hadn't really been training and eating right. It's why she asked for another way with Katana and why she wanted Oliver to fight her battle.  But once there was no other option she didn't want to look like a coward to the league. Or that's KL's take. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by tarotx

[bijoux]

God help me, but Oliver's blind spot regarding Malcolm actually makes more sense since William was introduced than it did before. Because it could be explained that he sees the parallels of both of them being denied the right to be fathers to their children, even though it fails me how that is anything other than a blessing for Thea. Imagine how messed up she would have been if Malcolm had actually been her parent while she was growing up.

BTW, I've decided that Malcolm is in a full blown psychosis and is completely delusional. His story about meeting Thea does not ring true, not just emotionally but practically as well. Because he was supposed to have been in NP then having abandoned his grieving child after getting it on with Moira. He was not in Starling having Oliver over for playdates. So I am operating on the assumption that Malcolm is just making stuff up and ends up believing it. Too bad Tommy's gone to debunk him.

[Carrie Ann]

Someone on this show needs to step up and be the Buffy S4* Finale Giles here when it comes to Malcolm, killing him because they know another person can't. I nominate Dig, but would accept any and everyone as suggestions.

 

And yes, when Oliver went to NP to save Malcolm last season, it almost made sense because he didn't want Thea to have to live with having sent her father to his death. But now that reasoning has been weakened down to just, "...but they share blood!" and that is not good enough.

 

ETA: *S5, I mean! Slip of the finger--thanks @arjumand.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[arjumand]

Someone on this show needs to step up and be the Buffy S4 Finale Giles here when it comes to Malcolm, killing him because they know another person can't. I nominate Dig, but would accept any and everyone as suggestions.

 

And yes, when Oliver went to NP to save Malcolm last season, it almost made sense because he didn't want Thea to have to live with having sent her father to his death. But now that reasoning has been weakened down to just, "...but they share blood!" and that is not good enough.

 

Season 5, tho. It was the one when Ben is Glory ("Wait . . . are we saying that Ben is connected to Glory in some way?" Spike sighs deeply and clocks Xander upside the head).

 

Otherwise, yes, please. The problem is that Arrow, for all my love for the show, doesn't have half the guts or imagination of Buffy the show. God, Giles. I miss him.

 

God help me, but Oliver's blind spot regarding Malcolm actually makes more sense since William was introduced than it did before. Because it could be explained that he sees the parallels of both of them being denied the right to be fathers to their children, even though it fails me how that is anything other than a blessing for Thea. Imagine how messed up she would have been if Malcolm had actually been her parent while she was growing up.

BTW, I've decided that Malcolm is in a full blown psychosis and is completely delusional. His story about meeting Thea does not ring true, not just emotionally but practically as well. Because he was supposed to have been in NP then having abandoned his grieving child after getting it on with Moira. He was not in Starling having Oliver over for playdates. So I am operating on the assumption that Malcolm is just making stuff up and ends up believing it. Too bad Tommy's gone to debunk him.

 

Also, even before he threatened Thea in the season one finale, he'd been holding her life over Moira's head for five years, to get her to agree to the Undertaking. This is some retconned bullshit, but by whom?

 

What worries me is not that Malcolm believes it, because he is mentally challenged, but that the show believes it.

Edited February 12, 2016 by arjumand

[Chaser]

If their logic is that Nyssa was too weak to defeat Malcolm, then after Oliver took off his arm Nyssa should have just walked up and taken his head. Now that would have been shocking.

[ComicFan777]

I think that Thea was fine with Malcolm getting killed off last season.  However, this season, she has been working towards reconciling with him.  They've had some heart-to-heart talks and she has begun calling him dad.  I can understand why Oliver would be hesitant to be the one to actually take that away from Thea.  Also, Malcolm is Tommy's dad. In the final scene with Tommy and Oliver, even though Tommy knew that his dad did all those bad things, some of his last words conveyed that he still didn't want Oliver to kill Malcolm.  Given the importance of Tommy and Thea, it would definitely be difficult for him.

 

I don't think that the team should force Oliver to kill him if he doesn't want to - it should be everyone's responsibility not just Oliver's to save the city.  I would say the rest of the team should work with Nyssa to kill Malcolm or have Nyssa wait until she is strong enough to kill Malcolm herself.

[tarotx]

That's KL's logic. The show's Logic is MM must live because we love JB. Let there be a bit of a consequence that makes MM a bit more Villainous but some wiggle room for Oliver still not to kill him. 

 

I also think MM hooking up with DD is a nod to what the fans wanted last season. It's kind of like they are redoing season 3. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by tarotx

[arjumand]

If their logic is that Nyssa was too weak to defeat Malcolm, then after Oliver took off his arm Nyssa should have just walked up and taken his head. Now that would have been shocking.

 

And it would have been an awesome call back to her killing Isabel Rochev, because all of a sudden no-one could step up and do it, cause she has ladyparts.

 

But no, it's all, John Barrowman is awesome, let's keep him around forever. I mean, in theory, sure. But then you have to stop writing him as so massively evil that what he does is unforgivable - he's the entire cause of the misery of Season 3. I, for one, find it difficult to forgive that.

I think that Thea was fine with Malcolm getting killed off last season.  However, this season, she has been working towards reconciling with him.  They've had some heart-to-heart talks and she has begun calling him dad.  I can understand why Oliver would be hesitant to be the one to actually take that away from Thea.  Also, Malcolm is Tommy's dad. In the final scene with Tommy and Oliver, even though Tommy knew that his dad did all those bad things, some of his last words conveyed that he still didn't want Oliver to kill Malcolm.  Given the importance of Tommy and Thea, it would definitely be difficult for him.

 

 

That's my only caveat for this situation - this season they've written Thea as extremely close to Malcolm. I don't think she'd forgive Oliver if he killed someone she's been calling dad. Also, they never tell her things like: "The only way we got Malcolm's ring to give to Nyssa save your life was by cutting off his hand."

 

I bet you she's going to hear it as "bad Ollie cut off my dad's hand."

[nksarmi]

Whoever ends up actually killing Malcolm - I don't care if it's Laurel, Huntress, whoever - will automatically become my new favorite character at least temporarily.  Hell, if Slade comes back and kills him with hallucination Shado by his side - I might be ok with it.

 

I don't just hate Malcolm - I hate having to hear about how he's Thea's dad and that's why he can't die.  Barf, gag, ugh.

 

Oh and someday I really, really, really want to learn that Malcolm chipped Oliver so that he was especially stupid about all things Malcolm related, because that is the only thing that would make sense.  Seriously, I'd love to see him in Spike level of pain every time he thinks about killing Malcolm so I can at least understand what is going on in his pee brained head.

Thea has NOT been reconciling with Malcolm - she has just come to terms with the fact that he's alive and in her life.  She was mad as HELL when he sent two random assassins to feed her blood lust in NP.  She might - on some small level - be happy that things worked out with Sara so she doesn't have that death on her conscious, but I don't believe for one minute that she sees Malcolm as anything but her psycho, evil dad. If Oliver had to kill him - she'd be perfectly ok with it.  She just wouldn't want Oliver to have to KILL because of her when he's trying not to do that. I don't think Thea would care if Malcolm died by someone else's hand.

Edited February 12, 2016 by nksarmi

[ComicFan777]

As messed up as their relationship is, Thea has started to call Malcolm her dad.  He is also the first person she went to to talk about how Damien Darkh took away her bloodlust.  They have had several heart-to-heart talks.  She doesn't agree with his methods, but sadly she still considers him her father. 

 

I think Thea being unconscious took away her agency, so we don't know what she want in this situation.  When Oliver hesitated in killing Malcolm, I think a part of that is because he didn't know what Thea would want.  If he killed Malcolm, he would completely take away her choice and her voice in the situation.

 

Malcolm is a bad guy.  I just don't know with Thea's current relationship with Malcolm if she would be absolutely ok with him being killed for her.  In her mind right now, he is still her dad even though he has done so many bad things.  She has started talking to him more about serious issues instead of Oliver, which shows to some level she trusts him to an extent now.  I think Oliver didn't find out about DD taking away her bloodlust until 4x12, but she immediately confided in Malcolm.

[dtissagirl]

Imo Thea calling Malcolm "dad" is not a plus on the father of the year column for Malcolm. Regardless of what Oliver might think of it.

This season -- Malcolm sent two red shirts LoA minions into Thea's room so she could kill them and quench the bloodlust. His idea of helping her boils down to "psychopath daddy knows best", regardless of what Thea might want.

So, you know, maybe Thea calling him "dad" has a little something to do with HER headspace being constantly fucked up by a manipulative evil guy who gets off on telling her he loves her, and how much he wants the best for her... Except when the best for Thea jeopardizes his plans for world domination.

And then her dumbass brother encourages it on top of it because plot. Poor Thea.