S04.E13: Sins Of The Father

[Guest]

IIRC, FB!Oliver said that he's lost 4 people since Robert. So, that's Yao Fei, Shado, Sara, and Akio. I don't think he's counting Slade since Slade did try to kill him after he got Mirakuru-crazy.

 

 

I'm normally fine with SA's acting choices. I think he's really good in certain scenes. But, man. His scenes with JB was filled with SO. MUCH. SHOUTING. It was just unnecessary. I mean, I know that JB chews scenery like no one's business but SA could've modified some of his acting a little bit there. If you're alluding to the FB's though, well I've long since given up on the acting on the flashbacks. If there's anything that is a constant this season, it's that the FB's will produce the most questionable acting and the least interesting portions of every episode.

 

I didn't have any issue with SA's acting. It was mainly JB and his Malcolm/Oliver scene where he was like "Everything I do, I do for her!" SO BAD. And then the Nyssa/Laurel scene where Laurel jumps down to stop her from leaving. It was just hammy, IMO. And I don't usually think that with their scenes. They're usually okay together. But there was just something off about it.

 

Makes me wonder who the director was.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[Chaos Theory]

When did Oliver turn into a wuss? When did killing people who you know kill people get taken off the table? I get The Green Arrow is supposed to be a "good guy" but I kinda agreed with the kill Merlin sentiment.

I actually liked the Felicity and her father story. I liked how she found out he was a bad guy and had him arrested. Family is important but what you do matters more.

[dtissagirl]

Do we know that the actor is only here for a short time? I feel like Felicity's father being a supervillain is not something that they'd let go so easily. Plus Oliver's line about closure not coming easily.

 

Wendy Mericle said in an interview

that this is probably it for this season, but that they hope he comes back in S5

.

[Guest]

Waste of Tom Amandes though. I hope they do bring him back. I get what the EP's were saying about his ability to play sinister and warm all at the same time. For a moment there I wasn't sure if he was being honest or not. He was really good. 

[TV Anonymous]

What was that Ra's al-Ghul ring made of? Solder? It melted very easily in such small fire.

[johntfs]

I can't believe Oliver still defended Malcolm after that bizarre rant about Nyssa being a EVUL choice for leader of the LOA. He was unhinged. It totally reminded me of his batcrap crazy rant to Tommy about the EVUL poors in the S01 finale.

 

I honestly see this episode as a way S03 could have actually worked. Oliver was still the moron he was in S03 but everyone else got to keep their brains. 

 

Well, to be fair, Malcolm wasn't wrong about Nyssa's leadership.

 

Nyssa: As my first official act as the leader of the League of Assassins, I am dissolving the League of Assassins.

 

If nothing else, there's now a shitload of trained murderers suddenly getting dumped into the street without direction of employment.  Hmm, Damien Darkh has lost quite a few minions lately.  Maybe he'll get some replacements now.

 

What would you guys think if Felicity was made the leader of Team Arrow and the first thing she did was dissolve Team Arrow?  Like that.

 

One other thing with Malcolm is that he always seems to be playing games on multiple levels.  I have to wonder how much telling Darkh about William was fucking over Oliver and much might well be "encouraging" Oliver to do whatever it takes to defeat Damien or something.

Edited February 11, 2016 by johntfs

[Primal Slayer]

I've said it since 4x01 and I'll say it again, they are moving way to quickly with half their storylines if not majority and tonight was no different with Felicity and her father.

[Lady Calypso]

Yep, Malcolm is definitely the 'him' that Oliver has to kill. Seeing as now pretty much everybody has told him to kill Malcolm and he keeps refusing to do it. 

 

This episode was crap because it focused on Malcolm/Nyssa instead of the Smoak family. I mean, the episode could have been worse, but every time evil Malcolm is involved, Oliver has to become stupid so Malcolm stays alive. It's like they can't write Malcolm any better or give him a better reason to live, so they use Oliver as an easy scapegoat. John Barrowman is a talented actor, but his character is awful.

 

Also, having Malcolm knowing about William means that he should have died. Now Darhk is probably going to expose the secret to Felicity somehow and look! People can't change! Break up ensues! At least Oliver got to chop off Malcolm's hand. 

 

The Oliver/Felicity scenes were great, when they allowed them to have conversations with each other. I'm just frustrated because of all the plot points being set up, combined with not allowing these two to have more moments. 

 

I just fast forward through the flashbacks. 

 

The scenes with Felicity and her parents were good, even though there were only four scenes total. Oh yeah, welcome back Lance! 

[Primal Slayer]

Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for Malcolm. If the writers try to redeem him any way possible instead of having him embrace full time villain....please lord give me strength. 

[KenyaJ]

The only times I felt at all engaged in this episode were when Felicity showed up. Otherwise, what a snoozer.

[jay741982]

Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for Malcolm. If the writers try to redeem him any way possible instead of having him embrace full time villain....please lord give me strength.

You ain't the only one sista lol there are seemingly a lot of fans who want him dead on this board at least lol

[JenMD]

Man, sometimes this show is such a chore to get through. Thank God the LOA is done for. I forced myself to only ff the flashbacks but it was tough going for a bit there. Don't care about the League, don't care about Malcolm, don't care about Nyssa (sorry, Katrina Law, you're great, though). Oliver harping on about how Malcolm is Thea's father, ad nauseam, was working my last nerve. Just ugh.

Waste of Tom Amandes. He was really good though. But, as usual, they flew through Felicity's storyline, like they can't even be bothered. Donna's scene with Felicity was fantastic. I won't think too hard about why Donna just happens to be around. She does still live and work in Las Vegas, as far as we know. Although, I do suppose it's closer to Starling than New Jersey and we all know how fast everybody hops back and forth from there.

Felicity's wardrobe was lovely all around and she looked so beautiful in the green dress at the end. Oliver and Felicity did have some really lovely moments (I can compartmentalize, the show makes it so I must), but it's going to take me about 5 minutes to rewatch this ep.

One last thing. Why did Oliver not notice until the morning after Felicity and her dad had coffee that she was upset? They live together. She's dependent on him to make it upstairs to bed and, presumably, her closet. They couldn't have not seen each other when she got home from seeing her dad. I know the answer is so the reveal could be convenient to having everyone around, but bad writing like that just bugs me.

Edited February 11, 2016 by JenMD

[dtissagirl]

Science question:

If Oliver had killed Malcolm, would the timeline have stopped playing Final Destination?

[catrox14]

Well, I have to say....I pretty much enjoyed that one.

 

I knew Malcolm had never changed. I knew he was still on his mission to destroy the city to save it because he's a crazy M'fer. 

 

I knew it was never really about Thea other than on a superficial level. 

 

I don't mind shouty Malcolm because that's when you know he's becoming unhinged and desperate.  It's the quiet Malcolm that scares me.  I thought JB was really good tonight. 

 

I was totally shocked they had Oliver cut off his arm.  That I never thought of. 

 

I'm looking forward to re-watching this one.

 

And someone here said I called Malcolm knowing about William, but I swear I don't remember that but if I did, well then YAY ME! LOL

[SmallScreenDiva]

Well, that was ... bad, IMO. The action sequences kinda sucked. So much running around and smoke and people shooting things. It was chaotic, and not in a good, exciting way. The  LOA ending felt "eh" with Nyssa disbanding it and just walking away. Did anybody else wanted to yell at her to take the robe off since skeezy people had worn it? Just me? OK.

 

Random thoughts, because that's what this episode felt like.

 

Oliver's insistence that Malcolm cannot be killed because he's Thea's family is still stupid.

 

The whole "People do not change" thing is definitely what Felicity is going to throw at Oliver's face, along with the ring, when she finds out about the kid, isn't it? I still love them, though. So, Oliver's sudden "Let's get married" ... Does he think Felicity is not going to leave him if she has two rings on her finger when she finds out he was lying about the kid?

 

Nyssa, who's been training since she was a little girl, can not defeat Malcolm Merlyn and has to ask for Oliver's help. That's a bunch of bull.

 

Some of the acting was indeed terribad. I agree with posters upthread, too much shouting when it's not needed. I now want Malcolm dead even more because Barrowman need not infect Stephen with his scenery-chewing. And KC was giving nothing back while Katrina Law was full on emoting. I felt bad for KL.

 

Love Felicity Smoak and her dad and I wish there was so much more of them and her mom, instead of the LOA. I love that she was smart enough to suspect him, to bait him, trap him and hand him over to the cops. Bonus points, that Lance came to supervise the arrest. ... Though I don't know now what the point of the heists last week were if he really didn't intend to kill people and break the city.

 

Laughed hysterically when the Arrow writers asked if Twitter broke after Oliver's sudden but inevitable betrayal. I didn't even see anything Arrow related trend tonight and, believe me, I was looking. 

 

I'm sure I'm going to have more later. Or not. This is not an episode I'm likely to watch again.

 

Edited to add: Arrow is actually trending right now in the U.S.

Edited February 11, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[Ann Mack]

 Remember when Nyssa was all:

 

 

But to-damn-night you couldn't get her to shut up about all this "my husband" shit. So so glad that's all done with.

[Guest]

One thing I really liked was how Donna went from cute happy Mama to Mama Bear as soon as she heard Felicity had seen her dad. CR did that really well. 

 

On that note though, does Donna live in Star City now? 

[apinknightmare]

Science question:

If Oliver had killed Malcolm, would the timeline have stopped playing Final Destination?

 

No! Because Malcolm didn't die in the Central City timeline.

 

/science

[EmeraldArcher]

But you know, Oliver deserves these bad things to continue happening to him since he just won't kill Malcolm! If he killed Malcolm, life would be so simpler for him.

 

Honestly, this week's refusal to kill Malcolm after 1) Oliver made it clear how much he hates him and 2) Malcolm threatening William by informing Oliver that he knows about him scores a point for the Hero!Oliver column. Those are the types of lines a hero doesn't cross lightly, even at great personal cost. It's the difference between "Find another way" and "whatever it takes"; the difference between remaining true to one's values and desperation. Perhaps that's why Oliver has been so stupid and, in Digg's words, "in denial," about the need to kill Malcolm. Because when he finally does, it will undeniably justified. Although, I loved his look to Felicity right before he took Malcolm down.

 

I actually liked the fight between Oliver and Malcolm--Oliver looked competent and confident. There was none of the self-doubt or hesitation.

 

If any of you call me a flip-flopper I will refuse to hear you! ;-)

[calliope1975]

Science question:

If Oliver had killed Malcolm, would the timeline have stopped playing Final Destination?

 

apinknightmare beat me to it. It only involves those who got crispy in the crossover, though I don't include the CC folk. 

[thuganomics85]

Wanted to like this episode, but I didn't.

 

First, I hated how neutered Nyssa was through most of this.  I get using your brains is just as powerful as using brawn, but it just felt like Nyssa was a lightweight in all of this.  Malcolm easily beat her (speaking of her claim that she could never beat him, didn't she beat him fair and square in S3?  So, that's a lie), and even if the reason she didn't fight in in the trial was because of Oliver's plan, it still felt like it basically Oliver having to save the day and her ass, because she was too weak. And then all those "husband" remarks didn't help either.  Even her disbanding the LOA was underwhelming due to the majority of this episode.  Not a fan of this Nyssa.  Still wish that Rip just took her along on is adventures on Legends of Tomorrow, so she could be with Sara again.  Arrow is wasting her.

 

But my main issue once again is fucking Oliver Queen.  I don't think I laughed any harder then I did when he flat-out laid out Malcolm's multiple sins (Tommy, Sara, and the 500 lost in S1), only for him to pretty much scream "But he's Thea's dad, so I can't!" about killing him.  What the fuck, Oliver?  You are acting like Malcolm was simply a deadbeat dad, who might finally get it right on his third chance.  This guy is evil and has already shown that he won't ever change.  He even was willing to start an assassin war in the middle of Star City, because he loved the power too much.  And yet, you are willing to let him do his thing, because he's Thea's father?  Fucking hell, Oliver.  And sure enough, he only maims him, so Malcolm is already fucking him over by name-dropping William to Damien Dahrk.  Frankly, I can't wait to see this all blow up in Oliver's face.

 

Felicity and her dad was good when we got it, but mainly a waste of Tom Amandes.  And, yes, I totally think Donna's line to her is going to be used by Felicity if/when the day comes when she and Oliver finally fall apart.  Because Oliver is continuing to lie like an idiot.

 

I give up on trying to be nice about the flashbacks.  By that, I mean fuck the flashbacks.  They are stupid, boring, and grind the show to a halt.  Fuck them very much.

[Primal Slayer]

Honestly, this week's refusal to kill Malcolm after 1) Oliver made it clear how much he hates him and 2) Malcolm threatening William by informing Oliver that he knows about him scores a point for the Hero!Oliver column. Those are the types of lines a hero doesn't cross lightly, even at great personal cost. It's the difference between "Find another way" and "whatever it takes"; the difference between remaining true to one's values and desperation. Perhaps that's why Oliver has been so stupid and, in Digg's words, "in denial," about the need to kill Malcolm. Because when he finally does, it will undeniably justified. Although, I loved his look to Felicity right before he took Malcolm down.

 

I actually liked the fight between Oliver and Malcolm--Oliver looked competent and confident. There was none of the self-doubt or hesitation.

 

If any of you call me a flip-flopper I will refuse to hear you! ;-)

Even if he doesn't want to kill Malcolm, lock him up! Thea can keep her daddy alive and the world can be rid of Malcolm for a time being. If Slade can be locked up, Malcolm most certainly can.

[apinknightmare]

Even if he doesn't want to kill Malcolm, lock him up! Thea can keep her daddy alive and the world can be rid of Malcolm for a time being. If Slade can be locked up, Malcolm most certainly can.

 

Don't you remember? NO PRISON CAN HOLD HIM!!!111!!!

[dtissagirl]

Even if he doesn't want to kill Malcolm, lock him up! Thea can keep her daddy alive and the world can be rid of Malcolm for a time being. If Slade can be locked up, Malcolm most certainly can.

Malcolm told Oliver "no prison can hold me" in 304, so that's not an option ever again, because once Oliver believed Malcolm about anything, it's forever imprinted in his brain as "truth".

[calliope1975]

Even if he doesn't want to kill Malcolm, lock him up! Thea can keep her daddy alive and the world can be rid of Malcolm for a time being. If Slade can be locked up, Malcolm most certainly can.

 

But, but...no prison can hold MM!!! For real though, I do not understand why no one even tried to lock his ass up. Let The Magician magic his way out of a 20 foot hole in the ground. Send him to STAR Labs prison. Sedate him permanently. Make an effort.

[Guest]

"Maybe me and Thea could make t-shirts. We could make a club."

 

Felicity and Thea should totally make a club! Then maybe we could finally get a Thea/Felicity scene! 

[catrox14]

But, but...no prison can hold MM!!! For real though, I do not understand why no one even tried to lock his ass up. Let The Magician magic his way out of a 20 foot hole in the ground. Send him to STAR Labs prison. Sedate him permanently. Make an effort.

 

Because he knows about William and so Oliver will end up being a bigger asshole than Malcolm when Darkh goes after William.

[Mrs. de Winter]

Wow that was – something. 

 

So basically they spent all of five minutes on Felicity’s dad just so they don’t have to hear again about how they promised it and then didn’t deliver because technically they had Felicity’s dad on the show.  And I am equally convinced we will hear next year about how much they wanted to revisit the story, but gosh darn it TA is just not available (and why would he be when they wasted him like crazy).    

 

I did enjoy Oliver’s line to Felicity about not always having to be funny.  I choose to believe it was, in part, the writer’s talking to a certain contingent of the fandom who whines about the fact that Felicity gets to be a real live girl and not just comic relief on the show.

 

I wish I could believe this is the end of the LOA, but I am guessing there will be some stupid reason they have to be reformed at some point. 

 

The anvils were a flying – the line about changing will certainly come up again.  I am also betting Felicity’s line about Oliver and his impossible situation and best way out will be revisited. 

 

Oh, and Darhk will magic a new arm for Malcom, or something similar, right?

Edited February 11, 2016 by Mrs. de Winter

[Chaser]

That was not fun.

For sweeps episodes these suck.

I liked the nonreaction to Felicitys father being The Calculator. Loved how they used that reveal to segue back to LOA. Real nice guys. Oliver, A+ boyfriend right there. But I get it becuase you have to save Thea. Cause the League. Again.

I can't even complain about the flashbacks becuase I fast forwarded thru them. I can't imagine how much more boring the episode would have been.

So much potential in the Felicity portion. EBR/TA/CR were good. The whole thing just felt like a set up for Oliver screwing up.

And Oliver, do not tell your wheelchair bound love to 'sit tight.'

That beautiful scene with KL and KC? Spent the whole time saying Shut Up Laurel in my head.

I have to give KL props. She is the only one who can handle the LOA dialogue.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Chaser

[Ann Mack]

Wondering if Andy had to vacate his cage to make room for Nyssa? Does that mean he was relocated to Laurel's cold and damp apartment basement instead? Things that make me go hmmm?

[apinknightmare]

Wondering if Andy had to vacate his cage to make room for Nyssa? Does that mean he was relocated to Laurel's cold and damp apartment basement instead? Things that make me go hmmm?

 

They let him out a couple of weeks ago.

[wonderwall]

Honestly the best line of the night for me was from Oliver:

"You don't have to be funny for me, you know that right?" 

 

It's a rather simple statement but if you dig deeper it shows just how much Oliver understands Felicity. How Felicity sometimes uses humor as a defense mechanism. Which makes perfect sense to me. It's simple statements like these that make me love this couple all the more. I'll have to give the writers kudos for this line and this line alone. 

[Ann Mack]

You know when I stopped and thought about ALL the damage Malcolm can cause not just to Oliver but to ALL of Team Arrow its just stupid writing that the show would let Malcolm live (of course its for plot but not common sense). Case in point:

 

1. Malcolm knows ALL of their true identities!!

2. Malcolm has NO loyalty to anyone and Oliver just betrayed him BIG TIME!

3. Malcolm told Oliver he knew who his son was, yet Oliver only cuts off his hand but doesn't kill him (very stupid move)

4. Is Oliver SO STUPID he doesn't think Malcolm will want revenge.

5. Malcolm knows where their lair is.

6. Malcolm demonstrated he is power hungry did Oliver think Malcolm would just go quietly into the night?

 

So much has to be overlooked so again Marc Guggenheim can get the end result they want. Character growth and intelligence be damned. 

[Lantern7]

Anybody else think Nyssa disbanding the League is a bad idea? I don't think all of them are just going to take a retirement package. They'll wind up getting assembled by the S5 Big Bad. On the up side, Rip Hunter can dump half of his "Legends" and pick up Nyssa to run wild with Sara. Vandal Savage wouldn't be a problem anymore.

 

I gotta admit, Barrowman can bring the drama. Too bad Malcolm is such an asswipe. Anybody else hoping that the dismembered hand goes to David Tennant?

 

I can't see Noah/Calculator being foiled so easily. He'll be back. Felicity did the right thing, though.

 

Anybody else have to remember that Oliver is running for mayor? He has so much on his plate, I can't see how he can make room.

 

Boring flashbacks are boring. Still wondering if Oliver can grow the crazy beard and hair in S5.

[Guest]

I legit forgot what happened in the flashbacks. LOL.

[nksarmi]

I actually had a horrible thought about Malcolm and the defunked League, but I'm not sure I want to put it out into the universe.  Let's just say that the League does go by another name at some point.  Oh please oh please let us not ever find out about that on this show though.

Edited February 11, 2016 by nksarmi

[Ann Mack]

They let him out a couple of weeks ago.

I was being sarcastic (sorry). But didn't they relocate him but not completely let him out to a cell at ARGUS, with a pass out of it to have dinner with Diggle while a ARGUS guard waited outside?

[Guest]

I actually had a horrible thought about Malcolm and the defunked League, but I'm not sure I want to put it out into the universe.  Let's just say that the League does go by another name at some point.  Oh please oh please let us not ever find out about that on this show though.

 

I thought the same thing. Although Nyssa had loyal followers, so did Malcolm...

[Ann Mack]

Anybody else think Nyssa disbanding the League is a bad idea? I don't think all of them are just going to take a retirement package. They'll wind up getting assembled by the S5 Big Bad. On the up side, Rip Hunter can dump half of his "Legends" and pick up Nyssa to run wild with Sara. Vandal Savage wouldn't be a problem anymore.

 

I gotta admit, Barrowman can bring the drama. Too bad Malcolm is such an asswipe. Anybody else hoping that the dismembered hand goes to David Tennant?

 

I can't see Noah/Calculator being foiled so easily. He'll be back. Felicity did the right thing, though.

 

Anybody else have to remember that Oliver is running for mayor? He has so much on his plate, I can't see how he can make room.

 

Boring flashbacks are boring. Still wondering if Oliver can grow the crazy beard and hair in S5.

I'm thinking the LoA guys will all become like the "Dirty 30" (paid mercenaries; did anyone watch Nikita; ah loved that show)

[Lantern7]

Before I forget . ..  why the hell does anybody live in Star City? My thoughts on the fracas basically boiled down to, "Assassin war in the streets? Must be Wednesday!"

 

Oh, and hello, Quentin. Keep forgetting he exists. That bodes well for him not being in the grave.

[wonderwall]

The reason why I will always love Oliver/Felicity:

 

 

 

[catrox14]

You know when I stopped and thought about ALL the damage Malcolm can cause not just to Oliver but to ALL of Team Arrow its just stupid writing that the show would let Malcolm live (of course its for plot but not common sense). Case in point:

 

1. Malcolm knows ALL of their true identities!!

2. Malcolm has NO loyalty to anyone and Oliver just betrayed him BIG TIME!

3. Malcolm told Oliver he knew who his son was, yet Oliver only cuts off his hand but doesn't kill him (very stupid move)

4. Is Oliver SO STUPID he doesn't think Malcolm will want revenge.

5. Malcolm knows where their lair is.

6. Malcolm demonstrated he is power hungry did Oliver think Malcolm would just go quietly into the night?

 

So much has to be overlooked so again Marc Guggenheim can get the end result they want. Character growth and intelligence be damned. 

 

I thought the Dark Archer is Oliver Queen's greatest nemesis?  Or do I have that wrong?

[Guest]

Shallow things: Felicity/EBR looked stunning in that green dress. Also, I don't like Oliver's beige puffy coat. That needs to be burned. ASAP.

 

I'm scraping the barrel here. LMAO.

[lemotomato]

Honestly the best line of the night for me was from Oliver:

"You don't have to be funny for me, you know that right?" 

 

It's a rather simple statement but if you dig deeper it shows just how much Oliver understands Felicity. How Felicity sometimes uses humor as a defense mechanism. Which makes perfect sense to me. It's simple statements like these that make me love this couple all the more. I'll have to give the writers kudos for this line and this line alone. 

I kind of hoped that was also meta comment/ "fuck you" to all the people who complain about how Felicity cries too much/isn't the funny sidekick anymore. 

[BkWurm1]

3. Felicity thinking her father leaving her had anything to do with her as a child.  As someone who hasn't seen their dad since they were about the age Felicity was when her father took off - I can assure you, that it is not a requirement that a kid would grow up thinking there was something wrong with them.  I never once thought me not knowing my dad had anything to do with me and I don't know why Felicity would feel that way. I'm not nearly as awesome as she is - that's a BS writing moment.

 

When she made it a sweeping given that any kid would feel like that, yeah, it rang false but I could believe that she felt like she was the one out of step with everyone around her and then there was her dad who was supposed to be like her who not only left her but never bothered to keep in any contact.  I can see how she'd start thinking the common thing with not fitting in and her father leaving was her. 

[BkWurm1]

jay741982, on 10 Feb 2016 - 8:06 PM, said:

LOVED Oliver cutting off Malcolms hand. Glad that it looks like Malcolm is the one that knows about Oliver's kid. Not someone like Dig or Donna who telling Oliver he's doing the right thing will taint them in my eyes

 

Malcolm knowing about William should be the moment that he tells his whole team about William and mobilize to protect him.  Malcolm just vowed to Oliver's face that he is making it his goal to make Oliver suffer but that he won't do it by killing him.  Only Thea would be safe-ish.  Oliver keeping William a secret has gone from dumb to incredibly dangerous.  Like Malcolm said about Nyssa, you need to prepare for the worst case scenario. 

Quote

Trini, on 10 Feb 2016 - 8:28 PM, said:

So Oliver wants to make wedding plans in the same episode that kept reminding us he's married? Interesting choice, show

 

The power of subliminal suggestion. 

 

 

Angel12d, on 10 Feb 2016 - 8:44 PM, said:

I didn't have any issue with SA's acting. It was mainly JB and his Malcolm/Oliver scene where he was like "Everything I do, I do for her!" SO BAD. And then the Nyssa/Laurel scene where Laurel jumps down to stop her from leaving. It was just hammy, IMO. And I don't usually think that with their scenes. They're usually okay together. But there was just something off about it.

Makes me wonder who the director was.

 

I agree about there being something off about the episode.  Even the fights felt slowed down at times, like the practice versions rather than final product. 

 

Also, kind of on a general note, I HATE how often Felicity gets cut out of scene because she is now to low to also be in the camera shot.  We are getting less reaction shots from her because she's just not in all the general shots. The group shots she is in are odd, over the shoulder looking down.  Also hate the power dynamic optics we see with everyone always looking down at her. 

 

I was pleasantly surprised that they let her be on the roof with everyone else. 

 

EmeraldArcher, on 10 Feb 2016 - 9:11 PM, said:

Honestly, this week's refusal to kill Malcolm after 1) Oliver made it clear how much he hates him and 2) Malcolm threatening William by informing Oliver that he knows about him scores a point for the Hero!Oliver column. Those are the types of lines a hero doesn't cross lightly, even at great personal cost. It's the difference between "Find another way" and "whatever it takes"; the difference between remaining true to one's values and desperation. Perhaps that's why Oliver has been so stupid and, in Digg's words, "in denial," about the need to kill Malcolm. Because when he finally does, it will undeniably justified. Although, I loved his look to Felicity right before he took Malcolm down.

I actually liked the fight between Oliver and Malcolm--Oliver looked competent and confident. There was none of the self-doubt or hesitation.

If any of you call me a flip-flopper I will refuse to hear you! ;-)

 

That Oliver genuinely did show that he changed by finding a solution to the Nyssa/Malcolm problem that didn't involve either of them dying thus challenging Donna's truism that people never change.

 

I liked that Oliver was able to handle Malcolm with relatively little difficulty but wth?  WHY was it so easy?  I honestly thought he and Malcolm were faking it at first (until the arm went flying) 

Edited February 11, 2016 by BkWurm1

[quarks]

Somewhat disjointed, and, as always, rushed episode, I thought, but not without its moments.

 

Good things:

 

1. Felicity choosing to turn in her own father to the police, though I'm really hoping this doesn't backfire on her, given what her father knows about Overwatch.  Also, really loved all of the obvious hope she had that things would work out, and she would have a father again. Also really liked her father drawing the parallels between them.

 

2. All of the characters pointing out how stupid Oliver was being, in an episode that did show his epic stupidity - and not even in the way the characters meant! My favorite: "You're very handsome, but not very bright." Hee.  Also, "This is one of your crazier ideas and that is a competitive field." Hee.

 

3. Everyone calmly heading up to Star City's most popular roof to watch a swordfight, and no one in the rest of Star City noticing despite having just suffered through sword fights in the streets shortly before this. 

 

4. Hey, this show remembered that once upon a pilot, there was a housekeeper named Raisa!

 

5. It's rare that this show really surprises me, but I admit - I did not think that Malcolm would be the first character other than Oliver and Barry to find out about/bring up William. Kudos for the surprise there.

 

6. And yay for taking the ring by taking Malcolm's hand!

 

7. The strong scene between Donna and Felicity about her father.

 

8. Liked the parallels between Nyssa and Felicity dealing with their fathers.

 

9. And yay, Nyssa!

 

10. "You don't have to be funny for me. You know that, right?" Oliver, at least getting when Felicity is deflecting.

 

11. The flashbacks were once again not a highlight, to put it mildly, but for once, at least they tied back to the episode's secondary theme of whether or not people can change, so they didn't feel quite as disconnected to the rest of the episode as they usually do. 

 

12. The show DOES remember that Malcolm brainwashed Thea into killing a friend! I was starting to wonder.

 

13. Malcolm's announcement that they would be dispensing with the CW's shirtless tradition moment. I laughed.

 

14. Appreciated that while Oliver and Malcolm were arguing about the LoA, Diggle had the sense to pay attention to THEA.

 

Questionable things:

 

1. How many levels does the Arrow Cave have? I'm counting the main level, the level they sometimes spar in, the level they have the cage without any toilet facilities in, and now the level where they put people waiting for weird lotus cure things. What did I miss?

 

2. So, what are the League of Assassins mooks going to do now that they are free? Go join H.I.V.E.?  I kinda think that someone possibly should have spent more time thinking this out before melting rings.

 

3. On that subject, unless that ring was plastic, it really shouldn't have melted so quickly.  And why didn't uber evil planner Malcolm just have a copy made? Hand a copy over to Nyssa, cure Thea, and then come back to Nyssa going HA HA HA. Really this need not have involved any rooftop sword fights at all.

 

4. No one has installed one of those stair lift things at the loft yet? I know you have other things to worry about, what with Damien Darhk and bloodlusts and League of Assassin people, but priorities, guys, priorities! Felicity needs to be able to get to her bedroom on her own!  Do that BEFORE the wedding!

 

5. Nyssa: Oliver, you are my husband! Oliver: I am Nyssa's husband!  Felicity: Sure, I'll marry you, Oliver! My only question is about the caterers!

 

6. On that note, I'm curious: did melting the LoA ring also melted all of the LoA marriage vows, because at least two people on that roof seemed to be under the impression that the marriage still sorta worked.

 

7. This is definitely just me, but I was kinda hoping that once he got the ring, Oliver would keep it this time and just use its authority to order Nyssa to give him the magical potion and order Malcolm to stop killing people and pontificating.

 

8. So, it's been weeks or possibly months since Flashback Oliver called into ARGUS, right? Why, exactly, is Flashback ARGUS not following up on the presumed disappearance of one of its agents? Did they get as bored with this storyline as Arrow fans?

 

9. And speaking of questionable shady organizations, why, exactly, are the League of Assassins and Malcolm bothering to keep so many agents in Star City? To keep an eye on Oliver Queen? And why haven't these agents been found by Team Arrow, Shadowspire or H.I.V.E.? You've got lots of questionable organizations running around here, Arrow! Use them!

 

10. Nyssa, first scene of the episode: Oliver! You must fight on my behalf and kill Malcolm for me!

 

Nyssa, later scene of the episode: Oliver! I never ask anyone to fight for me!

 

Me: Nyssa, have you been drinking that lotus stuff?

 

11. Who is the Calculator working for? 

 

12. Why was Team Arrow on the rooftop, and while I'm at it, why wasn't anyone on Team Arrow back at the Arrow Cave watching over things, and more specifically, watching over poor Thea who was left unconscious and alone down there? I get that for Character Reasons, Arrow wanted to have Oliver look at Felicity for confirmation - except that Oliver and Felicity had already had the "Should I kill Malcolm?" conversation, with Felicity very much on the side of, uh, yes. I also get that Laurel had helped negotiate the deal with Nyssa, so it made sense for her to be there. But - much as I love Diggle and want more of him on the show, I really do think that either he or Lyla should have been down at the Arrow Cave making sure that no one snuck in to kill Thea. 

 

13. Oliver, I appreciate this no kill vow thing, really I do. Speaks well of your attempt to be a hero. And I like having Malcolm on the show because he's so evil. That said, a) you have broken this no-kill rule before with the Count and Ra's, and b) when Laurel is correctly pointing out that just because you've changed, others haven't, and Diggle, Felicity and Nyssa are all giving you a long list of reasons why you should kill Malcolm, maybe you should consider killing Malcolm.

 

14. And speaking of people who could have killed Malcolm, DAMIEN. YOU HAD ONE JOB.

 

15. And really, Oliver, saying that things are quiet on the Darhk front. It's only February! You KNOW things won't get quiet until mid-May!

[yellowfred]

That was a bit underwhelming.  I wish Felicity's stuff with her dad had gotten more attention, but I do appreciate the fact that she didn't need too much time to angst over how to handle it.  Then again, I never really wanted Felicity's absentee father to become a particularly significant figure in the show's mythology (sometimes a shitty father is just a shitty father), so I'm not super broken up about it, either.

 

On the one hand, I guess I'm happy for Nyssa disbanding the League of Assassins, though it's a bit disappointing that she doesn't get to just kill Malcolm.  Also, I feel personally vindicated that the ring is apparently as cheap as it looks (seriously, no metal melts that easily).  At the same time, I do wonder if this is just meant to be the end of it or if we're gonna have to deal with a bunch of rogue, League-trained assassins (most of whom will be completely incompetent, but maybe one in every few dozen will be a real threat).

 

On a side note, I like to think that Nyssa's insistence on calling Oliver "Husband" is her way of saying "Do you remember how much of my father's gross plan you went along with?  Because I do."

[Carrie Ann]

This episode was a giant S3 throwback mess and I hated it. What shoddy plotting and lazy writing, just...everywhere. I don't even know where to begin to address it, so I'll just stick to this for tonight:

 

One last thing. Why did Oliver not notice until the morning after Felicity and her dad had coffee that she was upset? They live together. She's dependent on him to make it upstairs to bed and, presumably, her closet. They couldn't have not seen each other when she got home from seeing her dad. I know the answer is so the reveal could be convenient to having everyone around, but bad writing like that just bugs me.

 

This made me crazy. She said, "Remember the guy who [blah blah hacking]?" like, wasn't it two days ago? We know at least one-half-day and one night have passed since the meeting at PT--she just didn't talk to Oliver in that time? If she weren't paralyzed, I would say, well, maybe he slept at the hospital with Thea, but you know, she relies on Oliver to get upstairs in her own home. She would have at the very least needed to talk to him to coordinate that. I just can't handle how lazy the writing was in this episode.

[Ann Mack]

I thought the Dark Archer is Oliver Queen's greatest nemesis?  Or do I have that wrong?

I'm not sure it just still equates to dumb, lazy, and non-creative writing for me.