S02.E04: Episode 4

[RedheadZombie]

Maybe I'm blinded by TH, but I don't see anything bad coming from the coach.  He seems to be a loving and supportive father and husband, and serious about his job and athletes.  He does seem a little naïve regarding his players, but not willfully blind.  I think his message is going to be what his co-worker told him - he's just the hired help.  Don't ever make the mistake of thinking you're one of them.  Besides, how could he be the rapist?  I didn't think he attended the party.

 

That's the same thing I thought. He seemed a little to anxious to watch Taylor. I don't know who these people are supposed to be, but I hope they don't go down that route, i.e. Taylor molested as a child = turning gay.

 

I agree, it's such an irresponsible message.  I'm confused by a lot of the little details.   Why invite the guy you've bullied all season (to bully/prank?).  Why bring your girlfriend when you're planning a same-sex encounter (cover?).  Why plan a same-sex hookup in the midst of a heterosexual orgy (??).  If the encounter was initially consensual, why the drug (control/power?).  If you are determined to stay in the closet, why hookup with a classmate in an area that's likely to be discovered (?).

 

I'm sticking with Eric as the rapist at this point.  First of all, he violently attacked his brother.  But also, it's just so complicated to have the rape victim experiencing a consensual tryst prior to the rape.  I'm sure it happens, but it muddies up this particular story.

 

One thing I find confusing - If this was the first time Taylor bottomed, and Eric was rough, isn't it likely that there may be blood regardless of consent?   I believe Taylor was raped, but I'm not sure the blood is that significant. 

 

This may be stupidity of a straight female, but it seemed odd that either Eric or Taylor stated they didn't care if they were top or bottom.  Surely there's some preference.  Maybe it's because they're still new at this.

 

I must have missed it--I'm curious in what context the N-word was used? TYIA.

 

It happened at the other school, when the principal broke up the fight.  The Hispanic kid said something like, "You big 'N word'".  I thought he yelled at the principal, who took it pretty calmly.  I thought it worked in the context, and it was interesting to see racial tension portrayed between African-Americans and Hispanics. 

[starri]

This may be stupidity of a straight female, but it seemed odd that either Eric or Taylor stated they didn't care if they were top or bottom.  Surely there's some preference.  Maybe it's because they're still new at this.

I can only speak from my own experience, but it sometimes takes a little experimentation to discover which you prefer.

 

Also, there is that elusive creature the versatile.

[Neurochick]

Question. If the pictures had never come out, and Taylor had never been suspended, would Taylor have told his mother he'd been assaulted?

[formerlyfreedom]

Question. If the pictures had never come out, and Taylor had never been suspended, would Taylor have told his mother he'd been assaulted?

 

IIRC, Taylor didn't remember until the pictures came out, so no? Tell me if I'm remembering wrong though.

[starri]

I don't think you are.  And I know the show can and probably will upend this, but it felt like there was the encounter between Eric and Taylor that was consensual that Taylor had obviously enjoyed, and then there was the other part he didn't remember.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Must American Crime Make Us Play 'Spot The Gay Kid' With These Teenage Boys?
And other almost-burning questions sparked by the latest episode.

[Happytobehere]

It happened at the other school, when the principal broke up the fight. The Hispanic kid said something like, "You big 'N word'". I thought he yelled at the principal, who took it pretty calmly. I thought it worked in the context, and it was interesting to see racial tension portrayed between African-Americans and Hispanics.

No. He was definitely talking about the boy he and his friends assaulted. In addition to being racist, I was amused that the physical and racial attack was allowed (I mean a talking to for a ore-meditated, race-based assault, why weren't the cops called), but based on his verbal attack on the administrator during their conversation, I see the Hispanic kid making nasty accusations against him. The goings on at this school have to play in some way, and I suspect this it it.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Happytobehere

[Woebegone]

I agree, it's such an irresponsible message.  I'm confused by a lot of the little details.   Why invite the guy you've bullied all season (to bully/prank?).  Why bring your girlfriend when you're planning a same-sex encounter (cover?).  Why plan a same-sex hookup in the midst of a heterosexual orgy (??).  If the encounter was initially consensual, why the drug (control/power?).  If you are determined to stay in the closet, why hookup with a classmate in an area that's likely to be discovered (?)

 

There's no indication that Eric ever bullied Taylor, but other than that, your questions are ones that I've had all season. So far my guess is that the writers were too busy getting the pieces in place that they didn't stop to think about why the pieces would be there in the first place.

 

It's true that blood and even bruising can be part of even consensual anal sex, so the physical evidence does not by itself prove rape. The drugs are a better indicator, but we do not know when he was drugged, or who did the drugging yet.

 

The text and email exchanges are intriguing, at least partly because they didn't indicate who was saying what. My guess is that it was Taylor who was the one asking the questions and looking for what Felicity described as a "rough encounter". If so, that certainly doesn't help his case. 

[Tarataru]

After seeing the promo and sneak peek for the next episode. I think

Eric is being decently honest  (not all) about what happened. 
 
Spoiler from sneak peek
 
The reason I feel that he is being decently honest is about his comment that Taylor texted him the next day saying "he starts texting me, 'I want to see you, I want to talk'". The police can verify if this really occurred. If you add the fact that Taylor was watching Eric practice in the first episode insinuating that at that point, he had no problem with Eric, it seems like Taylor still liked Eric. If Eric really did something to Taylor, why you have no problem with him until you see pictures? Could it be that Taylor is very aggressive (text messages and what Eric says in preview) due to possible abuse from Nate? 

Edited January 30, 2016 by stacey
Added spoiler tags

[Lemons]

No. He was definitely talking about the boy he and his friends assaulted. In addition to being racist, I was amused that the physical and racial attack was allowed (I mean a talking to for a ore-meditated, race-based assault, why weren't the cops called), but based on his verbal attack on the administrator during their conversation, I see the Hispanic kid making nasty accusations against him. The goings on at this school have to play in some way, and I suspect this it it.

 

The Hispanic kid claimed, and they showed it, that him and his friends were being bullied for being Hispanic.  So it was more about he had had enough and was going to fight back rather than he was a racist.

[iMonrey]

 

Maybe it's my imagination but I got the impression that Taylor's grandparents weren't very satisfied with Taylor's mom.

 

They they establish that the older couple Taylor's mom was talking to were her parents? If they did, I missed it, because I couldn't figure out who they were supposed to be.

[kassandra8286]

They they establish that the older couple Taylor's mom was talking to were her parents? If they did, I missed it, because I couldn't figure out who they were supposed to be.

 

If you missed it, I did too. I was thinking they were Taylor's adoptive parents until at some point his bio mom came back into their lives and reclaimed custody. But then later in the episode she made the comment about being in a bad place and needing some time, which implies they had him only temporarily, but even then I wasn't sure if they were friends, relatives, or her parents. If they're her parents, it seems a little unusual that her mom would refer to Nate (is that his  name?) by name instead of "Dad" or "your father".  But who knows, lol. Just one more vague thing in a show full of murkiness and questions.

[Tarataru]

The part that I do not fully understand is why Taylor felt that Anne might leave him again if she found out about his sexual orientation. Anyone with any ideas?

[possibilities]

This show seems to take place in the era when being gay was the shame that dared not speak its name.

[dirtypop90]

I think kevin drugged him as some sort of cruel prank, which makes him partly responsible. And he's telling the truth that he didn't see the incident, doesn't know what happened afterwards, but obviously knows he is the reason Taylor was out of it.

 

It's also possible he knows of eric's sexuality and is ok with it, eric told him taylor was coming to the party for a possible hookup, and he gave eric the drugs. It's also possible they both drugged the people they had sex with, eric drugged taylor and kevin drugged who he was with in the bathroom (probably not Val).

 

Or maybe it was Val and that's why he gave her the 900 bracelet?

Edited January 30, 2016 by dirtypop90

[Chaos Theory]

I'm not sure why this season isn't clicking for me like last season did. I was enthralled last series but this one not so much. I am not sure if last topic of a violent murder appealed to me more then a sex crime does or maybe it is something else. The acting is still spectaculars and I genuinely liked the slam poetry this episode. Ironically that was the first time all season I was moved. I will keep with the show because the acting is so good but I just don't feel it like I did last season.

 

This show seems to take place in the era when being gay was the shame that dared not speak its name.

 

 

We'd like to believe all attitudes have changed but look at the news and you see that they haven't.   Some teenagers are still scared to come out especially if you parents are religious or Republican.  Kids are always going to scared to disappoint their parents.  I can buy that aspect of the story.  

Edited January 31, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[starri]

It's also Indiana.

[mansonlamps]

We'd like to believe all attitudes have changed but look at the news and you see that they haven't.   Some teenagers are still scared to come out especially if you parents are religious or Republican.  Kids are always going to scared to disappoint their parents.  I can buy that aspect of the story.

My brother lives in Texas, couldn't be more conservative and is a staunch Republican. When his daughter chose to come out the day of the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage, he proudly posted his support and love for her on Facebook. His even more conservative if possible father in law was equally supportive of his granddaughter. Stereotypes are offensive on either side of the fence, just saying.

[izabella]

2. I don’t think Eric is the rapist.  All he actually confessed to was sexting Taylor and planning a hookup.  It seems to me that after that confession, everyone is just assuming the semen on Taylor’s clothes belongs to Eric.  Unless I’m mistaken, no DNA results have come back.  At this point, the ejaculate found on Taylor’s clothes could belong to anybody.  I do think Eric lured Taylor to the party though.  I don’t know, at this point, if the team (or members of the team) planned to turn Taylor into a party favor all along or if activities at the party spontaneously got out of hand, but it was no accident that one of the “cool” kids asked Taylor to that party out of the blue after ignoring him all year.

 

When the coach visited Eric in his hospital room after his suicide attempt, Eric told the coach that he had sex with Taylor, but that Taylor asked for it and wanted it.  The coach told him he sounded just like a rapist.  Then the coach stormed out of the hospital room.

 

That statement Kevin made was pretty vague.  Wouldn't the police want information since he admitted to witnessing a lot, though not the rape.  I would think they would ask for specific names....who was there when you left, who was there taking pictures, how many drinks did you see Taylor drinking, who gave him the drinks.  It just seems odd to me that the police would accept the statement without any sort of follow-up questions.

[WearyTraveler]

This show seems to take place in the era when being gay was the shame that dared not speak its name.

 

Obviously not everyone or every place is the same, but there's still a long way to go.  Discrimination, misconceptions, and stereotypes are all around us.  Is it better now than it was ten years ago? Sure! But not for everyone, in every family, in every town.

[vibeology]

This show seems to take place in the era when being gay was the shame that dared not speak its name.

 

Has there been a groundswell of athletes coming out? For Eric, who wants a future in basketball, being gay is a huge deal because it will be an issue for some people in sports. Not everyone, but enough people that its better for him to stay quiet until he finishes his college career. Taylor lives in the same environment, the same school where these basketball players are worshipped, so even if he's not an athlete himself, I can understand why he also sees people knowing he's gay as a huge issue. The truth is coming out is still a huge deal for so many gay people not just because of the society around them but because of how sexual orientation helps someone define who they are  internally. 

[lavenderpenguin]

In a strange way, I'm hoping that Eric is innocent because what we've seen of him so far doesn't fit the stereotype of a rapist and I have trouble reconciling with the idea that a seeming non-monster could be guilty of something like this.

 

This is an interesting perspective, because Eric's character sets off all sorts of red flags for me and frankly, someone I'd scared to be alone with. He's violent (his scene with the brother), seems unstable, frustrated, and unkind. His 'bitch this' 'bitch that' attitude with women was disturbing (and yes, yes, he's posturing because he's gay, but I don't see that as an excuse to be demeaning), and when he was suspended, the first words out of his mouth to Kevin were, "that little bitch squealed" (indicating that clearly, something -- outside consensual sex -- DID happen and the other players WERE involved). And the fact that he said (implying that there was some kind of assault/harassment that took place) and his first concern was for himself without any sense of remorse or empathy, was striking. 

 

For me, Eric is absolutely the sort of 'monster' I could see raping someone and having little remorse about it afterwards. He seems so warped up in his own secrets and struggle, that he's oblivious to the fact that there's no free pass to act like a (insert insult of choice here) just because his life is tough at the moment.

[Tarataru]

This is an interesting perspective, because Eric's character sets off all sorts of red flags for me and frankly, someone I'd scared to be alone with. He's violent (his scene with the brother), seems unstable, frustrated, and unkind. His 'bitch this' 'bitch that' attitude with women was disturbing (and yes, yes, he's posturing because he's gay, but I don't see that as an excuse to be demeaning), and when he was suspended, the first words out of his mouth to Kevin were, "that little bitch squealed" (indicating that clearly, something -- outside consensual sex -- DID happen and the other players WERE involved). And the fact that he said (implying that there was some kind of assault/harassment that took place) and his first concern was for himself without any sense of remorse or empathy, was striking. 

 

For me, Eric is absolutely the sort of 'monster' I could see raping someone and having little remorse about it afterwards. He seems so warped up in his own secrets and struggle, that he's oblivious to the fact that there's no free pass to act like a (insert insult of choice here) just because his life is tough at the moment.

 

This is why I feel bad for kind of believing/hoping Eric didnt do it. I been trying to figure out who is the real Eric. Is he the unstable, aggressive, tough talking person or is that just a facade of who he really is (taking Taylor and Evy home from party which he didnt have to do)? I do agree that his attitude is not right no matter if its a facade or not. You shouldnt act that way. However, even after the party, Taylor seemed to have no problem with Eric which is shown by him watching him play basketball in the first scene on episode 1. However, I think we wont know until Taylor and Eric finally come face to face. It will be interesting to find out the extent of their relationship. 

[izabella]

Maybe I'm blinded by TH, but I don't see anything bad coming from the coach.  He seems to be a loving and supportive father and husband, and serious about his job and athletes.  He does seem a little naïve regarding his players, but not willfully blind.  I think his message is going to be what his co-worker told him - he's just the hired help.  Don't ever make the mistake of thinking you're one of them. 

 

I agree with this, and I don't see anything creepy about him, either.  I also think he is starting to realize that he's more naive about teenagers than he thought he was, as well as realizing that he really has no actual control over what happens.  It's freaking him out and scaring him to death, especially as it relates to his daughter..

[Neurochick]

I agree with this, and I don't see anything creepy about him, either.  I also think he is starting to realize that he's more naive about teenagers than he thought he was, as well as realizing that he really has no actual control over what happens.  It's freaking him out and scaring him to death, especially as it relates to his daughter..

 

I agree.  I too think the coach is very naive.  I believe that everything that happens now with teenagers happened 30, 40, 50 years ago.  The difference is that back then there was no social media.  Look at what happened to Taylor, it came to light because photographs were taken and put on social media.  Before there was social media, things like that happened, but they were hushed up.  

[formerlyfreedom]

We don't have a lot of rules here, so here are two to remember - we don't do politics here, and be civil to each other. Let's stay away from sweeping generalizations of people and groups, and keep in mind, we are all entitled to our opinions (Let's face it, even though I think banana and mayonnaise sandwiches sound gross, I respect my friend's right to enjoy them).

 

Your cooperation is appreciated.

[vmcd88]

Am I the only one that thinks that Kevin participated in the rape too.

[Mom x 3]

Am I the only one that thinks that Kevin participated in the rape too.

Nope.  I think (speculation only) that Kevin may have a thing for Eric, but seeing that Eric had sex with Taylor, that Kevin may have been the one who raped Taylor.  That would make sense to me from the power/control aspect of things.  Eric may be keeping quiet because Kevin has given him opportunities on the court that he didn't have to give him.  

[vmcd88]

Wow HospiceDoc I never thought about it like that.  Could totally be what happened.

[ReadyFTW]

The Hispanic kid claimed, and they showed it, that him and his friends were being bullied for being Hispanic.  So it was more about he had had enough and was going to fight back rather than he was a racist.

 

 

It was more that they've shown many of the kids making racial comments to each other, and as youth tend to do they justify their own negative behavior with a he/she/they started it defense. In an earlier episode Mateo tells an African-American guy to stop talking to Evy and to "stick to his own kind". Perhaps in Mateo's mind he's fighting back, but I think the show is showing how people are projecting stereotypes, frustration, etc. onto each other. Plus, one can be defensive and racist at the same time. The point that the principal was making in telling Mateo "fine, since you want to do this your way..." is that even if he felt something needed to be done about racial bullying then there are better ways to respond than bullying back with greater force - otherwise you'll end up in a vicious cycle.

 

Like someone mentioned earlier, I think these B/C-stories at Marshall High are meant to be commentary on class, and to juxtapose the concerns and conflicts in an environment of limited resources and relative anxiety to one of more abundant resources and relative order or calm. 

[Neurochick]

I don't think Kevin raped anybody; but I think he knows what really happened to Taylor.  I think the focus on Kevin was a smokescreen, bringing up race in a situation where race really had nothing to do with the actual crime.  But because of race and racism, Kevin might not say what he knows happened.  

Edited February 2, 2016 by Neurochick

[roughing it]

 

That statement Kevin made was pretty vague.  Wouldn't the police want information since he admitted to witnessing a lot, though not the rape.  I would think they would ask for specific names....who was there when you left, who was there taking pictures, how many drinks did you see Taylor drinking, who gave him the drinks.  It just seems odd to me that the police would accept the statement without any sort of follow-up questions.

I understood the statement was written by Kevin's attorney, and read by Kevin.  He is protected by his attorney, while Eric has no representation.

 

Another thing that makes me think that Eric was not the rapist, is when he was with the older guy in the hot car, Eric told the guy he was only up for kissing.  That told me that he was not very experienced sexually and wasn't ready to "go there".

 

No one has touched upon the coach's daughter.  I don't find the coach culpable in any way, but the way his daughter smirks and waves him off, just seems like there is something more there.  Maybe she's involved somehow.  Also, if you remember the first episode when she basically gave one of the basketball players a lap dance.  Somethin' ain't right there.

 

I also think that precious, innocent son Kevin isn't so precious and innocent.

[izabella]

Another thing that makes me think that Eric was not the rapist, is when he was with the older guy in the hot car, Eric told the guy he was only up for kissing.  That told me that he was not very experienced sexually and wasn't ready to "go there"

 

Eric admitted to the coach he had sex with Taylor, and that "he wanted it" and that's when the coach said he sounded "like a rapist."  So we know Eric had sex with Taylor that night - that's not in question at this point.  Was it rape?  That's the question. 

 

Did someone else come along and rape Taylor after he and Eric had sex?   I suppose that's possible, but that seems like a lot of stuff happening - blacking out because of drugs in drink followed by sex with Eric followed by a different rapist?  I'm not seeing that here, but maybe. 

 

The police didn't say if the semen on Taylor's clothes was from multiple people, so unless they tell us that, there isn't any reason to think someone else had sex with or raped Taylor that night.

 

The others might have stood around watching or egging him on, I suppose, but we haven't heard anything like that (yet, I guess).

[Eolivet]

Oops. 10 minutes into the next episode and I bow to Neurochick's superior character-reading skills.

 

I still find it distracting how much the actor who plays Eric looks like Mark Salling (a.k.a. Puck from "Glee"), circa 2010.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Eolivet

[pamplemousse]

I still find it distracting how much the actor who plays Eric looks like Mark Salling (a.k.a. Puck from "Glee"), circa 2010.

 

I think he looks like a younger Aidan Turner. Has a similar intensity in his acting, too.