S04.E10: Blood Debts

[Velocity23]

We still dont know what the the person in question has done to the Team or their families. I can imagine the situation will get worse with each episode. It seems everybody will get targeted.

[looptab]

Yeah, I imagine that will be the case, too. Still, having her, of all people, being the one to encourage him in taking that step - after being the one pulling him back for so long - makes the whole thing feel..I don't even know how to put it. My point is, I hope the journey to get her there will be well-thought, instead of, say, it's her mother in the grave and she wants revenge. Because that would be highly hypocritical of her, and I don't think I'd like it.

Edited January 21, 2016 by looptab

[bijoux]

So Steve ad libbed the "How dare she?" line. Arguably Oliver's most endearing line of the episode and it didn't even come from the writers.

 

I have to say, I was a little let down by Oliver and Donna's scene in the hospital. Donna was 100% in the right and I applaud her, I just expected something more.

 

Though it was a rather boring episode to me, they did manage to surprise me a few times. Most notably, Anarky being grateful to Thea rather than blaming her, and finding out that Andy was troubled before Afghanistan and H.I.V.E. All we've got over the last few seasons was Dig's tragically fallen brother. Him being involved in drug trafficing way back when is unexpected. I guess he didn't break into the rich kids crowd since Oliver doesn't recognize him. No way that Ollie didn't dabble into at least some recreational drugs in his hayday.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Wow...this show is kinda terrible. Oliver really, really should not be a husband. The show has proven she can't trust him to be honest with her and now she can't even count on him to be there when the worst happens. Then she just completely forgives him for it like a Stepford wife. And how they managed to drain every ounce of emotion out of what should have been slam dunk character angst is almost skillful.

 

Wait until Felicity finds out Ollie has a secret love child -- I think that's why they are distant in the flashforward and possibly no longer engaged.

Forgot to add, these flashbacks continue to be boring and useless as hell.  It annoys me to no end that the showrunners have insisted on clinging to this story structure even though it’s been too years since they have actually been interesting.  I’m not saying get rid of the flashbacks.  I think they can still have their place if used sparingly.  But they add nothing at this point and take time away from the storyline that’s happening now.

 

Maybe they filmed all these flashbacks and figure that they have to use them up on screen to justify spending money on them even if they are no longer relevant.

 

ETA:  And with all the 'A's showing up this episode due to Anarky, I started to think it was a crossover episode with Pretty Little Liars.  :)

Edited January 21, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[dtissagirl]

So, when DD decides to give the Green Arrow a little vacation, does he call the Green Arrow on the Arrowphone and leaves a "yo, Green Arrow, we're taking a time out, you and me. Toodles!" message?

 

 

Maybe they filmed all these flashbacks and figure that they have to use them up on screen to justify spending money on them even if they are no longer relevant.

 
They film each episode's flashbacks during the filming of said episode.

[Password]

If anything taking a month to shoot every single, stinking flashback would allow for continuity.

[bijoux]

Did they amp up Oliver's voice distorter thingie? Because I couldn't understand what he was saying on two occasions in the episode. I'm just amused by the idea that the Green Arrow threatens some criminal and they just blink and go, "Sorry, what? Could you repeat that for me?" Presuming he gets to face criminals who actually talk instead of killing themselves again.

[looptab]

So Steve ad libbed the "How dare she?" line. Arguably Oliver's most endearing line of the episode and it didn't even come from the writers.

 

Did he? 

[bijoux]

He did. Someone asked Guggenheim about it on Twitter and he confirmed it.

 

Edited January 21, 2016 by bijoux

[dtissagirl]

If anything taking a month to shoot every single, stinking flashback would allow for continuity.

 

They can't do that for Directors Guild problems -- who gets directing credit for those scenes? Do you bring each director for each episode in that month to shoot their episode's flashbacks, or do you hire one specifically for that? Do you start crediting episodes with "directed by Dude McDuderson, except flashback scenes, which were directed by Bro McBrotherson"? That's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[Password]

They can't do that for Directors Guild problems -- who gets directing credit for those scenes? Do you bring each director for each episode in that month to shoot their episode's flashbacks, or do you hire one specifically for that? Do you start crediting episodes with "directed by Dude McDuderson, except flashback scenes, which were directed by Bro McBrotherson"? That's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Please do not complicate this. The flashbacks do not get much for thought from me.

[dtissagirl]

Please do not complicate this. The flashbacks do not get much for thought from me.

 

SORRY. I just know way too much about production nightmare scenarios and how to avoid them. :)

[looptab]

He did. Someone asked Guggenheim about it on Twitter and he confirmed it.

Thanks! Didn't see that tweet:)

[AyChihuahua]

If this were any other show, I'd totally be down with him making some mistakes and learning and growing from that experience. I'd eat it up with a spoon.

But this is Arrow. I have no confidence the writers will actually have the lesson 'stick' since they get such great mileage out of Oliver regressing over and over again in the exact same ways. And when that happens all the stuff we went through with Oliver as he was learning those lessons becomes pointless. So, to me, Felicity laying in the hospital and worrying that Oliver didn't want to be with her anymore isn't worth Oliver learning a lesson that will probably only last as long as the writers need it to.

Also, nowhere in my post did I say I thought relationships operated on a 3 strikes system. To clarify: the second chance I was referring to was for me, as a viewer and supporter of the Oliver/Felicity relationship, to be able to believe Oliver could really put aside his stupidity and be a good partner for Felicity. And, for me, he's totally blown it with the stuff tonight and BM secret.

Also, plenty of RL relationships operate on a one-strike system. Or a no-strike system. Even putting aside dating relationships, millions of couples divorce every year. This idea that couples should/will work through either or both halves being douchebags is really strongly belied by the millions of breakups. Often shit happens and it's too much. (Not saying this particular couple won't get back together, but even healthy mature adult relationships...end. By the millions. Every year.)

Reflecting some more on the new FF, Felicity demanding that Oliver kill is huge. It's different from when she asked him to kill Ra's al Ghul, because then, she was asking him to kill in order to save himself. Here, she seems pretty much hellbent on revenge for the person that's in the grave, and, wow. This is the same person who tried with all her might to avoid that Oliver killed Slade, after Slade had murdered his mother. What I'm getting at is, I hope they don't butcher her character along the way to make this kind of shift in morals.

She told Oliver to kill Slade, too, to "Do whatever you have to. End this." And she was pretty okay with dropping a city block on the other Mirakuru soldiers. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My main take away from this episode is that our heroes are supposed to be top notch fighters who are trained in combat, yet when it was three against Anarky, they still couldn't take him down. So either Anarky has ninja level cardio/fighting skills or the Oliver + Thea + Laurel team is...not great at fighting. But Laurel can take care of herself! Plus Nessa trained her!

[tarotx]

Anarky is crazy with nothing to lose. He's throwing his all game-while team Arrow is trying not to kill. I don't know Lonnie's training but people were upset that he could hold his own in his previous episode. So it's not really shocking that he can still hold his own. Laurel doesn't really add much to that dynamic. Especially when you take Thea's blood lust away. But while I get that, I do wish we could have some Oliver fights that he dominates. 

[way2interested]

If it's any consolation, IMO, Oliver was beating Darhk physically in their little brawl at the end. Darhk had to cheat and use magic to get the one-up on him in battle. Not the same as actually winning or beating Darhk, but at least it showed Oliver holding his own better than what the preview for this episode showed or even in 401.

[looptab]

She told Oliver to kill Slade, too, to "Do whatever you have to. End this." And she was pretty okay with dropping a city block on the other Mirakuru soldiers. 

Yeah, she did, but then there was that whole "I have to kill him!!" "No, this isn't happening because you aren't a killer anymore, but because you were once".

 

I'm not stating that Felicity has always supported the NO KILLING AT ALL COSTS, because she hasn't. But, she was the person very aware of Oliver's moral dilemma and she has always had his humanity at hearth. So, I guess to me, it would be disappointing to see her shift her values just because this time it's personal - to her. But it's just an IF, since we don't know how it will unfold.

[Primetimer]

An old villain returns to declare war on a new villain, and Team Arrow is caught in the middle.

Read the story

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, she did, but then there was that whole "I have to kill him!!" "No, this isn't happening because you aren't a killer anymore, but because you were once".

 

I'm not stating that Felicity has always supported the NO KILLING AT ALL COSTS, because she hasn't. But, she was the person very aware of Oliver's moral dilemma and she has always had his humanity at hearth. So, I guess to me, it would be disappointing to see her shift her values just because this time it's personal - to her. But it's just an IF, since we don't know how it will unfold.

Frankly, no one has been that supportive of no-killing no matter what. It's totally overstated in the show. They blew up a bunch of Russian guards, for goodness' sake. And Felicity's the one who gave Digg the bomb to do it. It's basically just a big moral issue when it's convenient for plot. Felicity also wasn't that torn up by Malcolm killing an LOA dude in 3.23...she pretty much made a little joke about it. 

 

I am hoping "him" is Malcolm, and that explains her rage. Dude has been screwing with them for too long, half the time with Oliver's help. Then he can be the big bad of S5 and FINALLY DIE.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think Felicity's all that worried about the killing - Oliver just *really* doesn't seem to want to do it anymore, so she's supportive of that.

Edited January 21, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I've come to the conclusion that I didn't hate this episode by any means, I was just incredibly underwhelmed by it.

It could have been an emotional, character driven story. It was not. It was filler.

[Guest]

LAURELBOT HAS POWERED DOWN lmao Also Oliver swivelling Felicity's chair is a nice touch

 

 

I don't care about LaurelBot but Oliver standing behind and gripping Felicity's chair does things to me. He's such a lost dummy without her.

[looptab]

I don't think Felicity's all that worried about the killing - Oliver just *really* doesn't seem to want to do it anymore, so she's supportive of that.

Exactly. I don't think she is either. I guess what I meant is, I wouldn't want her to forget his adversion towards and struggle with killing when it serves HER purposes.

Edited January 21, 2016 by looptab

[dtissagirl]

I've come to the conclusion that I didn't hate this episode by any means, I was just incredibly underwhelmed by it.

It could have been an emotional, character driven story. It was not. It was filler.

 

Yup. It's not hate, it's ennui.

 

They could have at least tried to frame Anarky showing up as something that was disrupting the emotional beats, but they didn't. Imagine everyone in a waiting room pacing and worrying, and here comes a news alert that Anarky is back. There. Conflict -- do you stay and worry, or do you go deal with it? Instead they skipped the emotional beats altogether. So here's a bunch of people who should've been worrying about Felicity, worrying about rando villain of the week instead for reasons.

[Chaser]

I can't get past Laurels coat. It drowns her. I don't know why they can't tailor these suits on the woman.

[tv echo]

Clearly, I'm in the minority because I liked this episode - but mostly for the scenes between Oliver & Felicity and between Oliver & Diggle ((I've conveniently blocked from my memory anything and anyone I didn't like)...

 

-- The scene when Diggle tells Oliver that he has his back and then tries to rein him in by bringing up Felicity: "You've recovered a humanity that you lost when I first met you. I know you want payback for what Darhk did to Felicity, and you should. But don't lose what made her fall in love with you in the first place."

 

-- The scene when Oliver finally visits Felicity.  She says, "My point being is, we didn't really exchange any vows, so the whole 'for better, for worse' thing doesn't really apply here." In response, Oliver puts the ring back on her finger and says, "For better, for worse."

 

-- The scene where Oliver is looking at a sleeping Felicity and tells Laurel, "You know, we go out every night - suiting up, risking our lives, fighting assassins and metahumans, and all the worst kinds of people. She's stronger than all of us." And Laurel responds, "You won't get an argument from me."

 

-- The scene where Oliver tells Felicity that he wants to go to Bali and asks her to go with him, and she responds, "Yeah. I'd go anywhere with you," but then brings up Damian Darhk.  Then when Oliver asks her how she got to be so strong, she responds, "I took my lead from you."

 

The acting by both EBR and SA was so spot on and perfectly understated in those scenes.

 

Yes, Oliver should've visited her sooner.  But I read his reaction as a mixture of anger and fear.  He needed to hit people, not sit quietly in a hospital waiting room.  And he was terrified of going to the hospital and maybe facing Felicity's death.  Also, as WM's quote (below) clarifies, he was reacting as the old Oliver at first, but then realized his error and changed.

 

I had no problem with Felicity's welcoming response to Oliver.  She was drowsy from painkillers.  I did like the realism of having her make-up free, with pale lips and dark shadows under her eyes.  (I've watched too many tv shows where they show a female character who's recuperating from surgery with full make-up on her face, er, Castle.)  I think we'll see a more assertive Felicity in the next episode, when she's not so drugged up, and when the full reality of her new condition really hits her.  That episode will probably explore more fully her reaction to her injury.

 

In THR article (posted in the Spoilers thread), WM addresses why Felicity wasn't mad at Oliver: "The traditional way would have been to have her be really upset that he wasn't by her side. But the nice thing about Felicity and Oliver is that she's been with him since season one. She understands who he is and what he's been through. She knew and, I hope this played in that last scene with them in the hospital, she understood that this is what he was going to do. He wasn't going to rest until Dahrk was off the board. Even though he doesn't succeed in accomplishing that, he does realize his mistake. That's what we love about this season. Oliver is evolving and he's able to see, 'Oh, that's what old Oliver would have done, and this Oliver is not going to leave your side going forward.' That's the progress he's made." (Warning, rest of article includes spoilery stuff). Yes, it's a bit irksome that Felicity's injury turns into a story about Oliver, but hopefully the next episode will address Felicity's feelings more.

 

Strangely enough, I also liked the scenes between Thea and Anarky.  They have a weird, antagonistic dynamic together.

 

P.S. This is one of the parts I've 'forgotten' but since someone asked about making more out of Oliver and Laurel's interactions, here's WM's response in her TVLine interview:

-- On whether Laurel will continue to butt heads with Oliver over his "end justify the means" approach, WM:

"I think so. I mean, she has really come into her own as Black Canary, and we really like that she and Oliver are on a completely new footing this season. She’s become a superhero in her own right on the team, someone with an equal voice and someone with power — and Oliver respects her. She has the ability, just like Dig had in previous seasons, to really put the brakes on things and make him think about his decisions. We really love that dynamic."

Unfortunately,

she might be hinting that Laurel will take on the role as Oliver's moral compass for awhile, since both Diggle and Felicity may be morally compromised and in their own dark places (per the 'angel' quote from WM in her TVLine interview on page 29 of the Spoilers thread: ").

Edited January 21, 2016 by tv echo

[Guest]

I really disliked how the ER scenes were intercut with Oliver fighting since I felt it robbed both scenarios of the emotional impact.

 

Exactly. I wanted to see everyone's emotions. I wanted Donna's reaction and Diggle's. Everyone's. I wanted tears. They owe me. LOL. 

 

Seriously though, this had the set-up to be a really emotional, gutting episode but they chose to focus on the wrong thing. I would have made Felicity the focus. We should have seen her face when she was told she was paralyzed. And I would have liked some quiet scenes with maybe Felicity/Donna and Felicity/Diggle. Really see those relationships. Instead we got a bit of a mess. Not sure what they were thinking. 

[nksarmi]

Well at least the lack of continuity can probably be blamed for the FF's being so VERY different from each other.  It would suck if there were two upcoming funerals!

 

But yea.  It really was an underwhelming episode and I'm not sure how I feel about what it's setting up.  I'm not really invested in anyone's story right now.  I'm raging over anything - I'm just slowing slipping into "I don't care" ville.  The flashbacks are. not. helping.  Last season, they only seemed loosely tied to the main plot, but at least I found Katana and her husband interesting.  This season?  They are just a total fail.

 

Anyway, so let's review the various plots....

 

* Diggle and his brother?  I should care, but I don't.  And didn't Andy used to be the older brother? Or was he always younger?

* Thea and Alex (is it?)  Don't care.  Thea's bloodlust?  Don't care.  I miss Roy.

* Oliver's man pain?  Don't care.  Oliver being completely unable to stop Darkh or even figure out what he's up to?  I should care, but I don't.  Flash has made me care way more about Zoom, but I admit that's because of Harry and his daughter.  God help me - maybe Darkh needs to target Thea and get Malcolm back involved in this?  I might hate Malcolm, but at least he entertains!

* Laurel has no story - the poor girl.  I don't care about her, but she doesn't bug me either.

* Donna and Lance?  So don't care.

* Felicity's injury? I should care, but since I seriously doubt it will last - I kind of don't.  Oddly enough - my biggest feeling about it is that I want to see her back at the company and see what Curtis can come up with.  If she ends up in a flying wheelchair ala Professional Xavier - I might even be ok with this new development.

* A pending breakup for Olicity?  Predictable.  Don't care.

 

Please show give me a reason to get into this again????

[Chaser]

Yup. It's not hate, it's ennui.

They could have at least tried to frame Anarky showing up as something that was disrupting the emotional beats, but they didn't. Imagine everyone in a waiting room pacing and worrying, and here comes a news alert that Anarky is back. There. Conflict -- do you stay and worry, or do you go deal with it? Instead they skipped the emotional beats altogether. So here's a bunch of people who should've been worrying about Felicity, worrying about rando villain of the week instead for reasons.

It was weird and super disconnected. Zero reactions to the attack, didn't get Felicitys initial reaction, if there was ever an episode that called for a Diggle/Felicity scene this was it.

There were moments that worked. The few scenes with Felicity and the Diggle scenes were good. But Thea and Laurel were on a different show. I understand that they were planting seeds for upcoming episodes, but they could have used less seeds. Oliver seemed caught between the two shows.

[KirkB]

It didn't surprise me, since no one on this show seems to tell anyone anything until they're forced to, but I still found it odd that Thea had an encounter with Dark and did not tell anyone until now, especially about the fact that his power didn't work on her. And that whatever he did to her actually made her feel better for a while.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

What annoyed me is that Oliver went all the way to the hospital after Thea told him Felicity was out of surgery and it didn't go well. Donna told him in the hallway that Felicity would never walk again and then Oliver's reaction was to just leave without even stopping to see Felicity. YOU'RE ALREADY IN THE SAME BUILDING. Take a minute to see your fiancée before you storm out.

[apinknightmare]

I'm pretty sure he couldn't see her then - Donna said she was in recovery.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm pretty sure he couldn't see her then - Donna said she was in recovery.

My mom had surgery a few years back and I was allowed into the recovery room. Usually only close relatives are, but I think a fiancé would count.

[bijoux]

If it's any consolation, IMO, Oliver was beating Darhk physically in their little brawl at the end. Darhk had to cheat and use magic to get the one-up on him in battle. Not the same as actually winning or beating Darhk, but at least it showed Oliver holding his own better than what the preview for this episode showed or even in 401.

 

Can you offer consolation on the fact that Oliver failed to shoot an arrow in Darhk's head as he was walking away?

 

I've come to the conclusion that I didn't hate this episode by any means, I was just incredibly underwhelmed by it.

It could have been an emotional, character driven story. It was not. It was filler.

 

This is just it. On the whole, it's just a forgettable episode that really had no reason to be so.

 

I can't get past Laurels coat. It drowns her. I don't know why they can't tailor these suits on the woman.

Actually, I was relieved since it didn't look as bad as in some BTS pic posted a while ago.

 

* Diggle and his brother?  I should care, but I don't.  And didn't Andy used to be the older brother? Or was he always younger?

 

Dig has always been the big brother.

My mom had surgery a few years back and I was allowed into the recovery room. Usually only close relatives are, but I think a fiancé would count.

 

I'm willing to accept that in SC you're not allowed to see the patient then since Donna was in the hallway.

[apinknightmare]

I've sat in the hospital through several long surgeries with my mother when she was alive and I was never allowed in a recovery room, and no one's ever been allowed in with me when I've been in there. I'm guessing that's the case here, since Donna was waiting in the hallway. She'd probably be with Felicity if she was allowed.

[cambridgeguy]

Is Laurel deliberately setting the Canary cry on low?  Anarky seemed mildly irritated when she blasted him with it and if that's all it can do that's not much of a weapon.

 

Barbara Gordon staying paralyzed for years in the comics universe never made sense given all of the exotic technologies around and it's only slightly less unbelievable in the Arrowverse.  Between Palmer Technologies and Star Labs they should be able to come up with an exosuit at the very least.  Ray Palmer is going to be busy but put Caitlin, Cisco, and Curtis in a room together for a few hours and they should be able to come up with something.  Toss in Wells if you don't mind some loose ethics.

[quarks]

TV Echo, I liked the episode too!

 

Regarding the contrasting filming of Oliver with Thea at the hospital and Oliver with Felicity at the hospital, I think:

 

a) The two situations were very different. Thea was, for all intents and purposes, dead, with the doctor telling Oliver that he had to consider the option of pulling her from life support. Felicity was up and talking.  Back in "Muse of Fire," in season one, Oliver left Moira in the street after she'd been shot at to go and hit someone, and then refused to stick around at the mansion to take care of her because he wanted to go hit people, and in "Three Ghosts" Oliver left Quentin in a hospital bed so he could go hit people, this even though Oliver was hallucinating and not really up for a fight. So although, sure, it would be great to think that Oliver had progressed here, the show has established that if someone Oliver cares about is in the hospital, but still breathing/talking, Oliver is going to go hit people instead of hanging around a hospital bed saying cheery things.  

 

b) In the Thea/Oliver situation, Arrow had to show us that Oliver would be devastated enough to join the League of Assassins. In this episode, Arrow just had to show us that Oliver would be willing to hit people a little harder than usual, which since this is Oliver, is really not all that difficult to set up.

 

Regarding getting Felicity's reaction:

 

I think we did, a little? Her reaction was that a) she wanted Darhk taken down, badly enough that she wanted Oliver to focus on that, b) she was terrified that Oliver wouldn't want to be with her under the circumstances, which I think was a realistic and valid reaction, and c) she was unable to actually say her diagnosis out loud. She made it as far as "the doctors say" and then her voice trailed off. Meanwhile, she was in a full fledged denial of her own, focusing more on getting Darhk than on what had happened to her/would be happening to her in her second hospital scene with Oliver. I thought that was pretty telling.

[Morrigan2575]

I've sat in the hospital through several long surgeries with my mother when she was alive and I was never allowed in a recovery room, and no one's ever been allowed in with me when I've been in there. I'm guessing that's the case here, since Donna was waiting in the hallway. She'd probably be with Felicity if she was allowed.

I've been allowed in recovery for both of my mom's recent surgeries.  You're usually allowed to go in once they wake up for 10-15 minute intervals and only one person at a time.  That was the rule in both hospitals she was operated at.  Obviously that could vary from hospital to hospital or perhaps state to state.

 

I'm not offering an opinion on the context of the show but just saying she's in recovery wouldn't have eliminated a quick visit in my mind based on my experiences.  Saying she's in recovery and not awake yet would have.  Not that it matters, that wasn't the story they were trying to tell anyway.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

Is Laurel deliberately setting the Canary cry on low?  Anarky seemed mildly irritated when she blasted him with it and if that's all it can do that's not much of a weapon.

 

So very true.

[Delphi]

IT made sense the sense that Oracle was such a strong character even with her disability and managed to become so much greater and renowned than Batgirl. Not that I want Felicity in a chair or anything.

Also, I can jump on the Anarky/Thea ship. They play well off each other.

So, I lover Dig I really do. But I don't care about this brother storyline and I'm not sure if it's the writing or the fact that I don't care for the actor. I also can't see the actor as some badass war criminal.

[apinknightmare]

I've been allowed in recovery for both of my mom's recent surgeries. You're usually allowed to go in once they wake up for 10-15 minute intervals and only one person at a time. That was the rule in both hospitals she was operated at.

Maybe the rules vary by hospital systems? I mean....I'm not lying about my experiences.

[AyChihuahua]

Looks like it depends on the hospital:

 

Up to two family members or visitors may visit in recovery. Visits begin as soon as the patient is settled into recovery. Most children will be able to leave the recovery room within one to one and a half hours of having surgery.

Only two visitors are allowed in the recovery room. No children under the age of 12 are allowed to visit in the recovery room. http://www.uhhospitals.org/rainbow/patients-and-visitors/your-visit/guide-to-surgery/visitation-and-waiting-areas

 

Family members are generally not permitted to accompany adult patients into the recovery room (Post-Anesthesia Care Unit) areas. Exceptions are made for pediatric patients and patients with special needs, such as a translator.

http://www.mountsinai.org/patient-care/preparing-for-surgery/after-your-surgery

 

I'm willing to handwave it, although a mention would have been nice. However, he clearly wasn't visiting her or even getting much in the way of updates on her condition generally when she wasn't in a recovery room. She's laying there in probably huge pain, scared out of her mind, and thinking he's going to dump her, bc he can't get his manpain under control and think about her needs instead of his for a couple hours. Obviously it's an action show, no one would expect him to sit there the whole time, but the episode made it clear that he was pretty far away on the continuum from sitting with her the whole time.

Edited January 21, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[looptab]

I don't know if this was mentioned, but UGH at Reiter calmly saying something like "whatever Oliver does in the woods to satisfy his needs is none of my business". 

 UGHx10

[Starfish35]

I was surprised that Conklin didn't take the first chance he got to tell Poppy that Oliver killed her brother, especially when he saw how concerned she was about Oliver. I know they're holding that back for a dramatic moment, but Conklin seems like the kind of guy who'd twist that knife the first chance he got.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Starfish35

[bijoux]

I don't know if this was mentioned, but UGH at Reiter calmly saying something like "whatever Oliver does in the woods to satisfy his needs is none of my business". 

 UGHx10

I know. It leaves you feeling dirty.

You know, there actually was a part of the flashbacks I enjoyed. It was Conklin acting like a petulant child when he was told to stop torturing Oliver. 'Oh, come on!' I admit, I laughed.

Since I'm on the subject, I was really not impressed with Oliver's screams. I felt like they were too middle of the road and either quiet heroic suffering or primal animla screams would have worked better.

[Morrigan2575]

Maybe the rules vary by hospital systems? I mean....I'm not lying about my experiences.

Yeah, I totally said that it could vary from hospital to hospital or even state to state; I never thought you were lying.  I was merely explaining that based on my own personal experience saying "she's in recovery" doesn't eliminate a visit because I've been able to visit while in recovery.  I really don't think it matters because it wasn't the story they were telling anyway. Oliver not visiting her in recovery was ultimately irrelevant.  However, I can totally see why it would leave someone thinking, Oliver was a total ass for not taking 10-15 minutes just to say "I Love You".  

[dtissagirl]

Ray Palmer is going to be busy but put Caitlin, Cisco, and Curtis in a room together for a few hours and they should be able to come up with something.  Toss in Wells if you don't mind some loose ethics.

 

I'm REALLY gonna need Felicity herself to be heavily involved in figuring it out. That's actually the single thing I want from this storyline -- Felicity, actively involved in solving a ginormous thing that happened to her, something that's her own more than it is anyone else's.

[Guest]

Sigh. I'm getting kinda tired of the Oliver hate. I mean, I totally agree he should have been at the hospital more but I'm gonna cut him some slack for a very real and in-character human reaction. I've done it with Felicity enough times this season, when she was outright nasty to Oliver and never even apologized. I'm going to do it with Oliver this time, too. 

 

Also, I'm growing more and more okay with him being out in the field trying to find DD because he's already getting hardly any stunt/action time as it is. Imagine what the episode would have been like if Oliver had just sat beside Felicity's hospital bed. Laurel/Thea/Diggle would be out kicking ass and the goddamn Green Arrow would have just been sitting there. No. Already they've taken so much away from him this season - his power, his fight out in the field - I didn't want him to lose that completely. Not even for one episode. It was bad enough they wrote him out last season so other 'heroes' could rise. Just no thank you to that.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Guest

[johntfs]

This season I've seen episodes 1, 8, 9, 10 and the last part of 5 (I'm a late comer to Arrow).  So, I haven't really seen much of Sara Deathzombie or whatever.  That said, what Laurel did and what Oliver did were different thing.  It seems to be that Laurel did what she did because she and her family, especially her father, were lost in agony.  The only way they could end that agony was to recover what was lost, Sara.  What Laurel did wasn't "right" but I can get it.  And it eventually worked.  Sara came back, ultimately in full.

 

Oliver's "plan" meanwhile seemed to be "tag and release the psychopath" while hoping he didn't murder any innocent people on his way to Darkh.  It hasn't really worked out.  Anarky is still out there, crazier than ever and he'll likely drop quite a few more bodies before they get him again.  I sort of get why Oliver did it, but at the same time, I really don't.  Oliver had no plan to deal with Darkh once he was found aside from "get my own arrows shot back at me.  Again."

 

It is interesting that Darkh's wife seems to be more bloodthirsty/ruthlessly practical than he is.