Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Winnief]

 

I worry about how much time they are going to spend in Dorne though.  It just reeks of detour.

Not necessarily.  Dorne's storyline in Books 4&5 seemed like filler-but if they take events that were supposed to take place in Book 6 for Dorne next season, that might be genuinely interesting and relevant to other events in KL and so forth. Remember they specifically mention one of the sand snakes going to take Obery's place on the Small Council-in ADWD that was discussed but hadn't actually happened yet which to me indicates the show's going to be moving that along quicker.  And having a Sand Snake near the High Septon may place a role in Cersei's arrest and the Walk of Shame.  (Perhaps by being the one who tells the High Septon where to look for dirt on Cersei.)   I also note that Cersei sending that barge to Dorne-I think Cersei is trying a "rescue attempt" of Myrcella that is going to go disastrously wrong-possibly result in the girls' scars and maybe news getting out to Dorne that Cersei authorized a hit on Trystane-and that will be a catalyst for some serious shit to go down.  One reason perhaps they included so many Dornish characters-except Arianne whose Queenmaking attempt isn't needed, and is especially unnecessary if they don't include Aegon.

 

 

 

Also she kinda confirmed that she lets GRRM do basically whatever the eff he wants, explaining the hundreds of pages of bloat. For book 5 her main issue was the following: "I did try to get him to take a few 'words are wind' out of ADWD, but he got stubborn again. Characters said it 14 times in [the book]. I tried to get him to cut it down to 6-7. No dice."

So even when she does actually make a minimal effort to edit down his excess, she kowtows. Maybe we'll see the end of the series in the 2020s at this rate.

 

Seriously.  That man clearly needs someone with a whip, on his back and instead he's been working with pushovers who've pampered him for far too long.

 

Perhaps after he dies not having completed the series, Neil (George Martin's not your bitch!) Gaiman can be the one to take over.

 

 

Ooh, I like the idea of Sansa learning about the fake Arya marriage. The only thing is I wish she knew that Ramsay is the type of guy who makes Joffrey come across like the occasionally naughty boy scout in comparison.

Assuming the Fake Arya marriage takes place.  In any event, Sansa's going to be learning about Jon being LC of the NW for sure-and maybe some other reports from up North as well related to Bolton's and what's happening beyond the Wall.  And if she plays her cards right in the Vale, she could be in a position to *do* something about all that.

[Brn2bwild]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa already knew a little something about Ramsay.  Though he was a Snow, I don't think his father took pains to hide him.  It could just be one memory of him accompanying his father to Winterfell as a child, and him doing something horrific like torturing and killing a small animal.

[benteen]

The thing is, when you're that successful a writer you've earned the right to do things the way you want.  Unfortunately, that's not good for this book series. 

 

I don't want to see the book series end anytime soon but if GRRM insists on writing yet another book so he can revel in world-building, then I hope the TV series spoils every single plot point in his upcoming books.

 

The only time I wouldn't mind 8 books is it Book 7 and 8 are released 6-12 months apart.  Then that would be okay.  It's the open-endedness that drives me crazy.  If there's another book (and there's no guarentee that he won't make the series even longer) than it'll won't be until about 2025 before it's all over.

Edited June 3, 2014 by benteen

[ElizaD]

Not necessarily.  Dorne's storyline in Books 4&5 seemed like filler-but if they take events that were supposed to take place in Book 6 for Dorne next season, that might be genuinely interesting and relevant to other events in KL and so forth. Remember they specifically mention one of the sand snakes going to take Obery's place on the Small Council-in ADWD that was discussed but hadn't actually happened yet which to me indicates the show's going to be moving that along quicker.  And having a Sand Snake near the High Septon may place a role in Cersei's arrest and the Walk of Shame.  (Perhaps by being the one who tells the High Septon where to look for dirt on Cersei.)   I also note that Cersei sending that barge to Dorne-I think Cersei is trying a "rescue attempt" of Myrcella that is going to go disastrously wrong-possibly result in the girls' scars and maybe news getting out to Dorne that Cersei authorized a hit on Trystane-and that will be a catalyst for some serious shit to go down.  One reason perhaps they included so many Dornish characters-except Arianne whose Queenmaking attempt isn't needed, and is especially unnecessary if they don't include Aegon.

 

I would be happy if some combination of Arianne's and Cersei's Myrcella plots happened in the first half of S5 and then the Sand Snakes borrowed Littlefinger's teleporter so that Tyene could be there for Cersei's walk and Nymeria could join the council before Kevan's death.

 

Manderly is so amazing that I'm going to be crushed if he's cut. Finally, someone does proper Shakespearean vengeance in style. If he dies in TWOW, he'll go out in a blaze of glory having dined on Freys. For GOT, that's shockingly uplifting.

 

"I did try to get him to take a few 'words are wind' out of ADWD, but he got stubborn again. Characters said it 14 times in [the book]. I tried to get him to cut it down to 6-7. No dice."

 

... dammit, GRRM. I've yet to run into anyone who thought words are wind was deep or memorable in a non-Darkstar way. And it's an especially stupid phrase in a world where oaths are so important: they can be broken, but they still matter.

[Haldebrandt]

I reeeeeally hope the show writers don't cop out and not have Tyrion kill Shae.  I can see them transferring Tyrion's obsession about finding where whores go to a search for her instead of Tysha.  Funny, the Unsullied are terrified that Shae will be executed in front of Tyrion as further punishment and we know from the book that he is the one to kill her, but it may turn out that she is long gone and her twu wuv will travel East to search for her.

D&D have done a lot of things wrong (and many more right), but they've very faithful to the biggest moments so far.  I don't see them making that change, even for St Tyrion.  Shae and Tywin will happen as in the books.

 

There is a scene in the trailer where Tyrion knocks a cup from a table in anger.  That's interesting because in the books it's more of a cold rage.  So the tenor of the scene may be different.  Perhaps Snarling Tyrion will reappear...

 

I'm concerned about Tyrion telling Jaime he killed Joff.  At this point, best leave that out.  Perhaps the murder of Tywin will be enough to sustain Jaime's own bitterness toward Tyrion going forward?  I don't know.  I just don't think a repeat of the "did you do it?" conversation would work.  Jaime has been a steadfast ally, never betraying a doubt in Tyrion's innocence.

[Pete Martell]

I hope we at least get a short glimpse of Gendry and Rickon so they exist this season. I mean, the finale is called "The Children."

 

I hope so too, especially Rickon. I'm so in need of seeing Osha and Rickon again before the season is over that I actually had a dream about them (a bear was protecting them and the bear was killed by random farm people, because, well, this is Game of Thrones).

 

I thought they were supposed to be in this season at some point. Maybe a glimpse in the finale, at least, surely.

D&D have done a lot of things wrong (and many more right), but they've very faithful to the biggest moments so far.  I don't see them making that change, even for St Tyrion.  Shae and Tywin will happen as in the books.

 

There is a scene in the trailer where Tyrion knocks a cup from a table in anger.  That's interesting because in the books it's more of a cold rage.  So the tenor of the scene may be different.  Perhaps Snarling Tyrion will reappear...

 

I'm concerned about Tyrion telling Jaime he killed Joff.  At this point, best leave that out.  Perhaps the murder of Tywin will be enough to sustain Jaime's own bitterness toward Tyrion going forward?  I don't know.  I just don't think a repeat of the "did you do it?" conversation would work.  Jaime has been a steadfast ally, never betraying a doubt in Tyrion's innocence.

 

I will be surprised if they don't have Tyrion kill Shae, although I don't know how they will sell Shae/Tywin. It just doesn't make sense to me, even as Tywin needing to show his dominance. I suppose they will just go for the shock. 

 

I wonder if they will keep the bad parting with Jaime or not. Unless they are going to show Tyrion having a complete break from reality, there's nothing at this point that would make him turn against Jaime.

[Haldebrandt]

Pleasantly surprised to see that the PTV Unsullied want to see more of Dorne and are itching from some Martell revenge.  Not because I love Dorne (interesting setting, dull overrated characters), but because the revenge fatigue I'd been dreading has yet to take hold.

For the first time, it occurs to me that Doran Martell and Wyman Manderly are essentially the same character.  Bad GRRM.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[benteen]

I think the bad parting between Tyrion and Jaime needs to happen.  At the very least to signal the complete break from everything when he leaves Westeros.

[yellowfred]

Perhaps Snarling Tyrion will reappear...

 

Oh, god, I hope not.

[Lady S.]

There is a scene in the trailer where Tyrion knocks a cup from a table in anger.  That's interesting because in the books it's more of a cold rage.  So the tenor of the scene may be different.  Perhaps Snarling Tyrion will reappear...

Pretty sure that happened after he sent Shae away in 4.02. The shot of Shae in bed is the one that has to be from her murder. And there's no way they're not including the Tyrion/Jaime break-up after doing so much to highlight their bond, though yeah, Tywin's murder will probably be the only thing to turn Jaime against Tyrion, unless Tyrion confesses to Joffrey's murder without being asked. The line about Cersei being a lying whore has a great chance of making it in imo, and Lancel being the only one Tyrion can name won't really take away from Jaime's reaction.

 

Assuming the Fake Arya marriage takes place.  In any event, Sansa's going to be learning about Jon being LC of the NW for sure-and maybe some other reports from up North as well related to Bolton's and what's happening beyond the Wall.

Why? I thought the consensus was that the significance of that was that she may as well have said "Jon Snow? Hey, I know that guy!", because no one usually cares about news from the Wall so Myranda must have been testing her to even mention it. If they can cut Arya and Sansa finding about what happened to Winterfell, Arya finding out about Sansa's marriage, and Arya missing her family, then Sansa finding out about Lord Snow may happen but is no more sure than any of them hearing about anything else. Btw, one thing I'm fine with getting rushed is Sansa's

"possibly controversial" TWoW

chapter, that was an annoying question mark for Elio to throw out there.

[Holmbo]

I reeeeeally hope the show writers don't cop out and not have Tyrion kill Shae.  I can see them transferring Tyrion's obsession about finding where whores go to a search for her instead of Tysha.  Funny, the Unsullied are terrified that Shae will be executed in front of Tyrion as further punishment and we know from the book that he is the one to kill her, but it may turn out that she is long gone and her twu wuv will travel East to search for her.

 

I'm positive he will kill her.

I'm not sure how I feel about that though. Originally I was all for it but now I'm a bit uncertain if the writers will be able to make it seem believable. Tywin and Tyrion both has to act seemingly very out of character for it to happen. And Shae already kinda acted out of character but her characterization is all over the place so maybe that's ok.

Anyways I'm very excited to see how they'll pull it off.

 

By the way I hope the only "where whores go" we ever get on the show will be from Tywin.

[Minneapple]

The thing is, when you're that successful a writer you've earned the right to do things the way you want. 

This is true. I remember reading that Breaking Dawn from the Twilight series was hardly edited. If that piece of crap doesn't get edited, I imagine a book like Winds of Winter gets similar treatment.

 

I hope the bad parting between Jaime and Tyrion happens; I also hope Tyrion kills Shae (although yes...it would be weird for the show characters at this point). Do the Unsullied remember Tysha? Because Jaime's confession is pretty important, and is nearly the last straw for Tyrion in killing Tywin.

 

And I think the season will end with Tyrion killing Tywin.

[elzin]

I don't think Cersei loves her children. I think she only loves the power they enable in her, and the fact that they're an extension of herself and Jaime. She barely spares a thought for Myrcella, and her main concerns for Tommen are that Margaery doesn't get her claws into him and gain influence over him.

 

Sometimes I don't think Cersei loves her children but since she'll survive as long as they're alive, she clings to them in self-preservation.

 

[Scarlett45]

I dont necessarily want the bad parting to happen. Show!Jamie and Show!Tyrion have always had each others backs, and the change in the time line on the show has demonstrated their love the way that the book time line never did. I can see Tyrion being angry and still killing Tywin (I hope that is a well done scene), I hope the show runners do the mental break justice.

[benteen]

Tywin deserved what Tyrion did to him but I think Tyrion really needs that rage to do the scene justice.

[WearyTraveler]

And I think the season will end with Tyrion killing Tywin.

 

 

I think it will be much more interesting (and more TV appropriate) to end with some form of a Stoneheart reveal. 

 

Maybe we have missed the window for a creepy rising from the river after being pulled in by Nymeria, but that would have been my number one choice.  Who knows? They might still do it.  In a series where there are wights, white walkers and dragons, anything can happen.

Option number two is an encounter with Brienne.  To me this is possible because if they were going to do Brienne following Crab and fighting what remained of Vargo Hoat's circle of friends, they would have had some set-up to that.  So far she was pointed to the Hound by Hot Pie and she is now heading toward the Riverlands to try to find him.  This is when she goes to the Quiet Isle in the books, learns of the Hound's fate, and ends up in LSH's presence.  It may be that they accelerated Brienne's story line with the purpose of introducing UnCat at the end of the season.

 

Option number three is a Frey hanging.  We could have the Brotherhood do their trial and a hooded UnCat ordering execution.  When the Freys complain that they have no evidence, Thoros or Beric can say "you're wrong, we have a witness"; at which point UnCat pulls down her cowl and we see her face.  Roll the closing credits.

I think this would leave people on fire, talking about the series for many, many weeks after the season finale.

 

As for the other characters:

 

Sansa:  I think we're done with her this season.  Maybe we get a traveling shot of her, Petyr and SR descending from the castle, or being greeted by one of the Lords of the Vale as they take SR on the Vale's Mystery Tour.

 

The Hound:  Most definitely we'll see him collapse from his infected wound and Arya leaving him to die, denying him the gift of mercy.  I believe they'll probably keep her partying words in the book just as they were: "You should not have hit me with an axe... You should have saved my mother!"

 

Arya: Her last shot should be on the ship to Braavos, leaving Westeros behind, or arriving at the symbolic and much publicized (in the credits and in Stannis visit) statue.

 

Stannis: he will show up to save The Night's Watch from the Wildlings next episode.  In the finale he will be pressing TNW to choose a new Lord Commander, so, some decisions can be made.  One of them being whether to burn Mance as a sacrifice to R'hollor.  We might even get the scene where Maester Aemon asks Sam to describe Lightbringer and the audience will know that the sword is supposed to emanate heat, not only light.  This way the seeds will be planted for the audience to wonder who the "savior" is.  Most will take it as confirmation that it's Dany.

Jon: Ygritte will probably die next episode during the attack of Castle Black, providing Jon with plenty of heartache.  I think they will make the two attacks simultaneous, thus making Stannis' save more grandiose. In the finale, I think after Stannis presses TNW to choose a new LC and threatens not to let them leave the hall until they choose one, Jon's story will end when he's named the new LC, with everyone knowing he will have to go deal with Stannis and the question of what to do with the wildings after the battle is won, accompanied by evil looks from his enemies on the Watch (Janos will definitely give him the evil eye!)

Cersei: She will end either on a high, seemingly victorious as she gains her authority again after her father's death, or she will end on a low, raging about Twyin's murder and calling for Tyrion's head.  I'm not sure we'll have enough time to get through Tywin's funeral and Cersei having the power to make decisions again, but if we do, I bet her first orders will be for Jamie to go get Riverrun back and for Loras to get Dragonstone.  I know in the books they say she's not supposed to sit the Iron Throne, but I think it will make for a great, albeit rage inducing, image for her to end the season sitting on the Iron Throne, commanding Jamie and Loras to go away.  It doesn't look like they will do the Ironborn story in detail, so, we need a reason for Loras to go to Dragonstone.  What better reason than Cersei being drunk on power and trying to rid herself of the Tyrells, given her animosity toward Margaery?  And she's been on the outs with Jaimie, if he refuses her when she asks him to be Hand, I can see her ordering him to go away as a consequence.

 

Jamie: See Cersei

Tyrion:  We'll see him leaving KL on a little boat, like Sansa did, only this time he will be with Varys.  Thus setting up Varys' escape too. 

 

Bran (and his companions): meeting ColdHands and walking into the frozen tundra beyond the wall with him, perhaps even entering the cave that will lead them to the Children of the Forest's dwelling.

 

Ramsay, Reek, Roose:  Ramsay's wedding to "Arya" at Winterfell, with Reek murmuring to himself "that's not her" or a significant look between him and the bride

 

Ellaria: riding away to Dorne with Oberyn's bones

 

The Mountain:  As Cersei is walking toward the throne room, screams are heard and she speaks to Qyburn about it, mentioning how they have to send his head to Dorne and with a sinister convo that gives all sorts of suggestions as to what Qyburn is actually doing to/with him.

Dany: Drogon will roast a child and she will be decide to lock up her babies.

I think it would be cool if the final minutes are a montage with the following images in succession with the appropriate medieval music playing in the background:

 

- Bran and company following ColdHands, heading toward a dimly lit cave in the middle of a snow storm

- Jon being congratulated and raised on the shoulders of his black brothers while Janos and company give him the stinkeye

- Stannis surveying the north from the top of the Wall

- Toasts and celebrations in Winterfell while Ramsay puts his arm around a terrified "Arya" and Reek averts his eyes, scared and antsy

- Jaime leaving KL with a host

- Tyrion and Varys at sea

- Arya arriving at Braavos

- Danny closing the door behind her as her dragons scream bloody murder

- Cersei imperiously sitting the Iron Throne

- UnCat's cowl falling back revealing LSH

 

Edited June 4, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[Pete Martell]

Pretty sure that happened after he sent Shae away in 4.02. The shot of Shae in bed is the one that has to be from her murder. And there's no way they're not including the Tyrion/Jaime break-up after doing so much to highlight their bond, though yeah, Tywin's murder will probably be the only thing to turn Jaime against Tyrion, unless Tyrion confesses to Joffrey's murder without being asked. The line about Cersei being a lying whore has a great chance of making it in imo, and Lancel being the only one Tyrion can name won't really take away from Jaime's reaction.

 

I wonder if the reason they brought up Cousin Orson was so Tyrion could use his name, rather than Moon Boy's, to taunt Jaime.

 

I feel like it's risky to have Tyrion turn against Jaime after this season. Sad to say, most fans likely won't bat an eye at him murdering Shae, but going against his "bro" after Jaime's done so much to support him is going to be a tough sell, unless Jaime turns against him first.

 

One of the problems with the writing for the Jaime/Cersei relationship this season is that they seem to have so little interest in each other. If Tyrion tells him that Cersei has been fucking the entire Kingsguard, I don't know if Jaime would blink.

[Carrie Ann]

I wonder if they would have Jaime and Tyrion part on friendly terms. As you've all been pointing out, the changes made so far will make it difficult for Tyrion to hurl anything at Jaime and have it make much of an impression. I don't think Jaime would believe that Tyrion killed Joff at this point, and I don't believe he would be surprised at Cersei's indiscretions, or even particularly care. So while Jaime's revelation about Tysha would certainly hurt Tyrion, I don't think there's anything he could throw back in return.

 

I don't see any reason that Jaime and Tyrion hating each other really matters in terms of the action of the books, or the series. Tyrion has to disappear, and Jaime wouldn't be able to help him once he left town, regardless. So unless there's something coming in the future books that would require Jaime and Tyrion to hate each other, I don't see a need for that scene at all.

 

One way to avoid it would be for Jaime to just mention something about Tywin forcing him to do something w/r/t Tysha, and for that to be enough for Tyrion to run to Tywin's chambers. Then Tywin could be the one to tell him what really happened, while Tyrion aims the crossbow at him. Tywin would never really believe Tyrion would do it, because he always underestimated him. Also, just knowing that Jaime had a part in it would hurt Tyrion enough--he wouldn't have to hear it from Jaime first--and Tyrion killing their father would be tough for Jaime too. So it would leave them in a complex place, but avoid that scene where they break each other's hearts. I'm just grasping here, because I really don't want to watch that, and I'd prefer to imagine the brothers thinking about and rooting for each other from a distance.

 

The other option would be to skip the Tysha thing altogether, and instead have Jaime or Varys slip and mention Shae and Tywin together; Tyrion goes to his chambers, kills both.

[jjjmoss]

Skipping the Tysha thing would drain the incident of much of its emotion. 

Plus the Tysha speech is how he won an Emmy...

[Haldebrandt]

WearyTraveler, I can't quote your enormous post, but that's an extremely ambitious agenda for a one hour episode of GOT's typical pace.

 

I've wanted montages in the closing, or at least penultimate scene of the finale since season 1.

 

I have never NOT been disappointed by a season finale on this show, even after accepting the show's approach to finales as mostly setup.  Except perhaps for Fire and Blood, they feel perfunctory.  As if they expanded the last creative energy on episode 9 and just sleepwalked through 10, or outsourced it to an intern.

 

No way they're going fit everything we want into the last episode.  Which is sort of amazing, given that they had two seasons to do justice to book 3.

 

At a minimum, we will have to see the following, in no particular order:

 

Bran reaches the cave

Stannis & Jon (& Mel)

Jon gets elected (very quick affair, like a show of hands and slow clap.  Forget Sam's games)

Tyrion & Jaime

Tyrion & Shae

Tyrion & Tywin

A Dany scene (probably bones)

Hound falls, Arya leaves him and boards ship

Brienne & Pod

 

These are the bare minimum must-have scenes to close out the various story lines in ep 10.  So now you have to figure out what else you can fit into what little time remains.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Pete Martell]

I keep wondering if we're going to even hear about Tysha. I know they brought her up a few seasons ago, but they could have done so during the trial, or in the lengthy jail scenes,but haven't. 

 

I also wonder how they're going to deal with Varys, as this should be his exit for quite a while. Since testifying against Tyrion he hasn't had much to say or do, other than look sad when Tyrion was sentenced to death in this past episode. 

[Lady S.]

I hope the bad parting between Jaime and Tyrion happens; I also hope Tyrion kills Shae (although yes...it would be weird for the show characters at this point). Do the Unsullied remember Tysha? Because Jaime's confession is pretty important, and is nearly the last straw for Tyrion in killing Tywin.

The ones here do. The general audience who think Dany's name is Khaleesi? Probably not. But they probably didn't remember any of the other things from s1 that already came out in s3-4.

 

So, given that the Hound did not have a fight with the Vale knights, and Rory made it sound like he had more than two fight scenes, I'm now wondering if he's the man whose ear Brienne bites off. With Rorge and Biter already, the options are getting slim for that. As much as I don't like Arya meeting Brienne in that manner,. I still an ending to Brienne's s4 story that leaves the Frey hanging for Stoneheart's intro. (Having Brienne captured by UnCat in the s4 finale only to then be almost killed before being sent to hunt down the audience's golden woobie in s5 would be a very dumb cliffhanger. The audience already hates the brotherhood and thought Cat could do nothing right when she was alive. They'll be rightfully complaining about the UnCat twist more than bookreaders without onscreen Frey killing.)

Edited June 4, 2014 by Lady S.

[WearyTraveler]

WearyTraveler, I can't quote your enormous post, but that's an extremely ambitious agenda for a one hour episode of GOT's typical pace.

 

Sorry for the long post!

 

I don't think all of that will be in the last episode, but split between the final two episodes.  Next episode is the battle at the Wall, as per the previews, but they can'0t spend the entire hour there; so, some of those things (if they happen at all) would happen this very Sunday.

 

I think next week we might have something like this:

 

- Main focus: Battle of the Wall.  It will probably cut to other storylines at tense, cliff-hangery points, for suspense purposes and keep coming back to the Wall until the whole thing has played out. The whole progression would be something like: Ygritte and company attack from the South, Mance attacks from the North.  Slynt is useless, the brothers follow Jon instead of him (thus setting up Jon's eventual rise to LC sans Sam's manipulations, as I think you're right when you say we won't have time for it).  Jon coordinates all the battle lines and strategies.  Sends some people to the top of the Wall, others to the gate and the main force to deal with the attack from the South.  Ygritte dies, Jon goes to her: "you know nothing, Jon Snow".  The NW defeats the attackers from the south, just as the people defending the gate start screaming that it will not hold much longer.  Giants and mammoths attacking the Wall.  The gate shattering.  Cue war horn.  Enter Stannis' host.  Bloody fights and brutal action scenes, Mance's capture.  Wildlings running away.  Stannis triumphant with Mel by his side (total time 20 mins).

 

- KL: Council meeting where Tywin discusses The Mountain's health state with Pycelle and we learn about the poison slowly killing him and someone complains about his screams of pain (after Oberyn's death, the audience needs to know how slow, agonizing and painful Gregor's death will be), mention of how they need to send his head to Dorne when he dies. Tyrion's escape, with or without a fall-out with Jamie, I think it wouldn't be OOC on the show for Tyrion to want to see Tywin, particularly after Tywin so gleefully proclaimed Tyron's death sentence after the duel.  Tyron finds Shae in Tywin's bed and kills her, then he opens the door to the privy, exchanges a few words with Tywin (about Shae and Tywin's hate of Tyrion) and twang! arrow to the bowels (total time 20 mins)

 

- Riverlands:  Brienne finds some hanged Freys, someone tells her it's the Brotherhood without Banners, which has a new, female leader (total time 2 minutes)

 

- Winterfell: Ramsey discusses his upcoming wedding with Reek and introduces his bride: "Arya Stark" (total time 2 minutes)

 

- Arya and The Hound:  Sandor collapses in the middle of their walk as they are within sight of a port city (they might mention it's Saltpans, they might not).  Arya abandons him ("you should have saved my mother") and rides off toward the port city.  She talks to a ship captain and tells him she wants passage.  When he asks how she intends to pay, she says "Valar Morghulis" and opens her palm to show the coin that Jaqen H'aghar gave her (total time 4 minutes)

 

- Essos: Dany in council.  Rumors that Yunkai might be breeding ground for an upraising. Missandei enters to announce the petitioners line is pretty big and she should get to them.  Two or three petitioners with small grievances. Final petitioner with bag of bones.  Dany encourages him to come forward, petitioner spills the contents to reveal a child's skeleton badly burned (total time 4 minutes)

 

That's 52 minutes of show.  More or less what we usually get.

 

The Finale might go something like this:

 

- Main focus: the aftermath of Tywin's death.  Varys and Tyrion getting on a boat.  Short conversation about Varys' position, maybe their destination.  Tywin's funeral, he stinks.  Outside the sept, acidic conversation between Cersei and the Tyrells about the urgency of marrying Tommen and pressing her on marrying Loras.  Night time, Jamie standing guard over Tywin's body.  Cersei comes in and asks him about the investigation; he tells her about the passages and that they have looked everywhere but found nothing.  She tells him she's now in charge, that she needs him to be her Hand, he refuses.  She leaves pissed off at him.  Cersei on the Iron throne offering a reward for Tyrion's head; asking Loras to take back Dragonstone and promising to marry him upon his return (what better way to get out of that marriage than sending Loras to his death?); ordering Jaimie to take Riverrun back from the Blackfish, or to take their father's bones home, or both; and putting Qyburn in charge of The Mountain (with accompanying Pycelle objections to his credentials and creepy, evil expression on Qyburn's face).  Total time 25 mins

 

- The Wall: Stannis demands that they let him burn Mance, Aemon says he's a prisoner of the NW and only the LC can decide such things. Stannis demands they choose a Lord Comander, sooner rather than later.  Jon is summoned to Stannis' presence.  He offers Jon Winterfell and the North, Jon goes off with Ghost and ponders.  Someone calls him into the common hall as the voting is about to take place.  Candidates propose themselves with the accompanying short speeches of qualifications.  Sam (or someone else) proposes Jon, citing his recent actions in battle as reasons to choose him.  There's no button voting, the cheers and support are evidently in favor of Jon and it's clear he's the chosen one (no pun intended).  Total time 20 minutes.

 

-  Riverlands:  Either the Frey hanging I discussed above or the encounter with Brienne.  Total time 4 minutes.

 

- Essos: Barristan asking Dany: "Your Grace, are you sure you want to do this?", "I have no choice, Ser".  Dragons in the pit, doors closing, long climb up the stairs, more doors, Dany crying. Total time 2 minutes

 

That leaves us 1 minute for any other quick scene they might want to do (no dialog, just images of characters), like Ellaria traveling with Oberyn's bones, Arya on a boat that is passing under the Braavos statue, Stannis looking out the top of the Wall, etc.  Take a couple of minutes out the KL or Wall scenes and you can show Bran heading into the cave or just him meeting Coldhands (who is a very creepy figure that would lend Bran's future storyline a lot of suspense: where is he going? what does Coldhands want with him? etc)

 

Edited June 4, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[Lady S.]

Isn't next episode confirmed to be all battle action focus as in Blackwater? Though I heartily agree that is a waste.

[WearyTraveler]

Isn't next episode confirmed to be all battle action focus as in Blackwater? Though I heartily agree that is a waste.

 

If it is, then forget everything I wrote! LOL!

[ElizaD]

GRRM:

 

The author explains he’s not secretly plotting eight books and that seven books remains his plan. As always, however, he leaves himself wiggle room in case his tale unexpectedly expands.

“My plan is to finish in seven,” Martin says. “But my original plan was to finish in three. I write the stories and they grow. I deal with certain things and sometimes I find myself not at the end of a story. My plan right now is still seven. But first I have to finish Book Six. Get back to me when I’m half-way through Book Seven and then maybe I’ll tell you something more meaningful.”

 

As I’ve been saying for years, I wish they had more hours — every time I see another HBO show I wonder why we only have 10 and they have 13.

 

Those other HBO shows don't have GOT's huge cast, sets, props, battles and CGI. The showrunners have repeatedly said that 10 is all they have time for because GOT is such a complex production and they're working on stuff until an episode airs. If they did more episodes, they couldn't start airing a new season in the April slot. GRRM can think 10-episode seasons are unfortunate, but he doesn't need to wonder why that's the number.

 

That said, given the amount of story remaining in his 4000-page saga — much of which hasn’t yet been published — Martin suspects the producers’ plan of making seven seasons will not be enough. “I don’t think it will be enough to tell the story we’re telling in the books,” he says.

Martin also is an advocate for one solution to the books vs. series timeline issue — capping the Thrones with staggered feature films. The proposal (which Martin notes did not originate with him) would give the author more time to finish his saga, while also giving producers the bigger theatrical budget that his as-yet-unpublished climactic battle scenes are expected to require. HBO leadership has been on record as not being a fan of this idea, however, as the network is primarily a television company, and its mission is to create compelling content for its subscribers. “Ever since I heard that idea I’ve been both excited by it — I think it would be great — and I’ve been skeptical about it because I’ve heard of a number of other shows that were [supposedly going to have movies] like Deadwood, Rome and even The Sopranos, and the only one I’ve actually seen is Sex and the City,” Martin says.

 

The season 5 scripts have now been written; the showrunners have decided whether they're currently aiming for 7 or 8 seasons. And GRRM is still talking about the movie idea that would give him more time to finish. Yeah, with TWOW taking 3 years and counting, they're going to put everything on hold to wait for ADOS. Now's the time to face facts, quit spinning and start working extra hard.

[Winnief]

 

 

Option number two is an encounter with Brienne.  To me this is possible because if they were going to do Brienne following Crab and fighting what remained of Vargo Hoat's circle of friends, they would have had some set-up to that.  So far she was pointed to the Hound by Hot Pie and she is now heading toward the Riverlands to try to find him.  This is when she goes to the Quiet Isle in the books, learns of the Hound's fate, and ends up in LSH's presence.  It may be that they accelerated Brienne's story line with the purpose of introducing UnCat at the end of the season.

Option number three is a Frey hanging.  We could have the Brotherhood do their trial and a hooded UnCat ordering execution.  When the Freys complain that they have no evidence, Thoros or Beric can say "you're wrong, we have a witness"; at which point UnCat pulls down her cowl and we see her face.  Roll the closing credits.

 

I think that's exactly what they'll do-possibly even combining elements from both those scenarios.

 

 

That's 52 minutes of show.  More or less what we usually get.

 

The season finale is going to be 66 minutes-the longest episode to date.  Also, certain comments in interviews make me think Jon might kill Janos Slynt in the finale this season.

 

Also a recently leaked audition video

shows that next season Jaime Lannister will have been smuggled into Dorne.  Cersei's sending that barge is her attempt to rescue Myrcella-I think we can safely assume that's gonna go badly.

[Haleth]

Continuing the conversation regarding the prospect of Tyrion killing Shae.  I'd like the writers to shake up the misconception that Tyrion is the moral center of the story.  In no way is he a noble figure like Davos or Jon or even Dany who wants to do right.  Tyrion is a self obsorbed, self pitying jerk who occasionally empathizes with other downtrodden characters and does something helpful before returning to his wine and whores and woe is me attitude.  I'd like non readers to see that killing Shae truly is in character for him.  For him she was just another in a long line of people who mocked him so when he found her in a vulnerable position he used her as a stand in for all the mockers and abusers (and beetles).  I don't know if only killing Tywin will send him into the continuing spiral of hate that eventually lands him in front of Dany.  (I'm guessing that Penny won't be cast.  Too bad because she acts as his conscience, making him process all the terrible things he's done.)  Without Shae or Penny Tyrion's storyline won't have the same emotional impact.

 

Now I'm wondering if the beetle conversation somehow foreshadows Shae's fate.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Haleth

[benteen]

Dany having here dragons chained I believe will definitely be the last scene of her storyline.  After three seasons of victories, she needs a downer to end her seasonal storyline on.  I would go as far as to say that it could be the final scene of the season although they might not want to end it on a downer.  But then I remembered they will likely end the season with Lady Stoneheart.

 

We definitely need to know that the Mountain is dying a slow, painful death.  Episode 10 could even start off with his screams.  The audience has to know that even though he was killed, Oberyn did at least give the man who raped and murdered his sister and murdered her children the death he deserved.  That was at least a final victory for him.

 

I hope they don't skip the Tysha reveal because as pointed out, it's that revelation that gives that entire sequence it's emotional punch.  It will lose a LOT without it.

 

Tywin has to die but damn, it's depressing to realize that we'll only have one more episode with Charles Dance left.  King's Landing is going to change A LOT next season.  I think we're going to end up seeing less of it.

Edited June 4, 2014 by benteen

[BlackberryJam]

I think we definitely need Jaime helping Tyrion escape including the Tysha reveal and Tyrion exposing Cersei's infidelities.  A big part of the story is the rift that develops between Jaime and Cersei.  It leads her on the naked walk to Crazy Sept and him to destroy her letter.  It also leads to him choosing to follow Brienne which gets us to Lady Stoneheart.  Jaime's actions are going to make so much less sense in Season 5 if we never have reasons for his break from Cersei.

 

It can be a 4 minute scene, followed up Tyrion killing Tywin and Shae.

 

If we are getting Jaime going to Dorne, maybe they are cutting Stoneheart completely, but what do they do with Brienne?  If they were going to let her loose as a character, why do we have scenes of her with Pod?  Are they going to reunite her with Arya and go to Braavos?  Is Sansa going to send her on a mission to the Wall?  It seems to make more sense for them to send Tyrion to Dorne, have the Martells team up with Dany and have Tyrion ally with her that way.  I think Jaime definitely needs to keep control of the Lannister forces and try to take Riverrun.

[mac123x]

Also she kinda confirmed that she lets GRRM do basically whatever the eff he wants, explaining the hundreds of pages of bloat. For book 5 her main issue was the following: "I did try to get him to take a few 'words are wind' out of ADWD, but he got stubborn again. Characters said it 14 times in [the book]. I tried to get him to cut it down to 6-7. No dice."
So even when she does actually make a minimal effort to edit down his excess, she kowtows. Maybe we'll see the end of the series in the 2020s at this rate.

 

The thing is, when you're that successful a writer you've earned the right to do things the way you want.  Unfortunately, that's not good for this book series. 

 

It's GRRM's creation and he's free to do with it what he wants, but you'd think he would be intelligent enough to realize that part of his success is due to having a good editor.  Its unfortunate to see him go down the same road that so many creative people have trod before him: Steven King, J.K. Rowling (books 5 and 7 of Harry Potter needed to be edited with a meat cleaver), George Lucas.  I guess they see an editor as an impediment to their vision rather than a valuable asset.

 

Browsing the Protection From Editors trope, a lot of this sounds eerily familiar:

 

Due to editors not being willing or able to fight back against a brand-name star, the resulting new material from an old creator can end up being lower-quality. Sometimes very much lower, as the author's bad habits, Mary Sues, and Author Appeals come to the fore (sometimes to the horrified shock of the creator's fanbase), where before, such excesses would be quickly and ruthlessly excised. The creators get away with it because it'll sell anyway, and we don't want to risk pissing him off and having him bolt for another company.

 

Nope, not seeing anything like that in books 4-5 (cough pages of excessive detail about food cough)

[Maximum Taco]

In regards to the ending the season with Stoneheart. It seems pretty likely...

 

Lena Headey has been posting cryptic spoilers on her instagram account.

 

Two months ago she posted a pic of her adorably gouging out Pedro Pascal's eyes: http://instagram.com/p/mVN1fdvAzU#

 

Last month she posted this: http://instagram.com/p/nEeNM0PA3L/#

Read into that whatever you will.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

Why is HBO so insistent upon each season starting in April? I'd personally be fine with waiting until June or even September if it meant we could get a 13 episode season. I still feel like seasons 1 and 2 were begging for about two extra episodes a piece especially season 1 IMO. It's like HBO became permanently nervous and cautious because of what happened with shows like Rome, Deadwood, and Carnivale.

It's not like audiences won't return after a longer wait than usual and many HBO shows have had situations that for whatever reason make the season premiere start a few months later than usual.

None of this excuses GRRM's super slow pace of course (or his outrageous idea that he thinks production should have to wait for him and should basically just distract themselves by shooting a prequel!) but I have often wondered why they're so insistent upon 10 episode seasons that start each April. I feel like they're boxing themselves in by being so rigid about not expanding if something needs to be expanded. They have the money, they have the viewers, they had material to work with (not so much now), yet nothing has changed since the first season and I'm not sure why.

[LilWharveyGal]

 

The gate shattering.  Cue war horn.  Enter Stannis' host.

 

Dang, just reading that gave me chills.  The show better get it right!

[Brn2bwild]

BlackberryJam, with regard to Dorne,

I wouldn't be surprised if Jaime's trip didn't last the entire season. It is probably just to give him something more exciting to do than "wander the Riverlands cleaning up disputes." Then when he returns unsuccessfully, he can go to the Riverlands and reunite with Brienne (or unBrienne, possibly).

[Pete Martell]

Continuing the conversation regarding the prospect of Tyrion killing Shae.  I'd like the writers to shake up the misconception that Tyrion is the moral center of the story.  In no way is he a noble figure like Davos or Jon or even Dany who wants to do right.  Tyrion is a self obsorbed, self pitying jerk who occasionally empathizes with other downtrodden characters and does something helpful before returning to his wine and whores and woe is me attitude.  I'd like non readers to see that killing Shae truly is in character for him.  For him she was just another in a long line of people who mocked him so when he found her in a vulnerable position he used her as a stand in for all the mockers and abusers (and beetles).  I don't know if only killing Tywin will send him into the continuing spiral of hate that eventually lands him in front of Dany.  (I'm guessing that Penny won't be cast.  Too bad because she acts as his conscience, making him process all the terrible things he's done.)  Without Shae or Penny Tyrion's storyline won't have the same emotional impact.

 

Now I'm wondering if the beetle conversation somehow foreshadows Shae's fate.

 

Unfortunately I'm not even sure if brutally murdering Shae would make viewers think he has become a dark character. A lot of fans would likely claim that she deserved it (which I don't agree with). I guess they could have the big blowup with Jaime as some type of start of a darker road. 

I think we definitely need Jaime helping Tyrion escape including the Tysha reveal and Tyrion exposing Cersei's infidelities.  A big part of the story is the rift that develops between Jaime and Cersei.  It leads her on the naked walk to Crazy Sept and him to destroy her letter.  It also leads to him choosing to follow Brienne which gets us to Lady Stoneheart.  Jaime's actions are going to make so much less sense in Season 5 if we never have reasons for his break from Cersei.

 

It can be a 4 minute scene, followed up Tyrion killing Tywin and Shae.

 

 

The thing for me is I feel like they've already had a rift this season. I don't know if it's intentional or not - I have absolutely no idea what the show is trying to say about their relationship, as it was poorly handled in the first 3 episodes and then dropped in the rest - but I haven't seen any love or affection or even interest between them since that awful sept scene.

[Maximum Taco]

That leaves us 1 minute for any other quick scene they might want to do (no dialog, just images of characters), like Ellaria traveling with Oberyn's bones, Arya on a boat that is passing under the Braavos statue, Stannis looking out the top of the Wall, etc.  Take a couple of minutes out the KL or Wall scenes and you can show Bran heading into the cave or just him meeting Coldhands (who is a very creepy figure that would lend Bran's future storyline a lot of suspense: where is he going? what does Coldhands want with him? etc)

 

 

I'm almost positive Coldhands will not be showing up in the show. If he was gonna show up, he would've already. Bran also seems to know where he's going through a combination of his own greendreams and Jojen's, he doesn't really need another guide. 

 

Also they've already cast a Three-Eyed Raven/Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven (Struan Rodger.) They wouldn't have cast someone they weren't intending to use this season. So it looks certain Bran will meet the Three-Eyed Raven in either episode 9 or episode 10. Do you think we'll have time for a Coldhands introduction too? I doubt it.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[benteen]

About Jaime going to Dorne to rescue Myrcella, that would be a rehash of Yara going to the Dreadfort to rescue Theon. It would be the showrunners descending further into the GRRM tendancy to bloat the story. There's plenty of material they could do with Jaime in the Riverlands. Why rehash their failed Yara storyline?  Although I will admit sending Jaime Lannister of all people down to Dorne sounds like something Cersei the moron would do.

 

I'm kind of hoping they keep the scene where Jaime advised Cersei to send Mace to Storm's End.  But Mace has been a complete joke on this show.

Edited June 4, 2014 by benteen

[ShellySpencer]

I always thought Myrcella was going to be the younger, more beautiful woman to give Cersei her comeuppance. Was I the only one?

[Haleth]

I'm really sorry we won't get Coldhands since I think he's an intriguing character.  Maybe the writers felt that between the zombies, Dondarrion, and (hopefully) Lady Stoneheart there were enough walking dead.

[Maximum Taco]

I always thought Myrcella was going to be the younger, more beautiful woman to give Cersei her comeuppance. Was I the only one?

 

No I don't think you were the only one.

 

I think popular opinion has it being Dany, but there are a lot of theories for Myrcella, Margaery and Sansa as well. All are either technically or have the potential to be Queens. Personally I'm hoping it's Sansa, that would be delicious for Cersei's "little dove" to be the one.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[kcbuckeye2]

WearyTraveler - Can you please get a job with the writing staff for the show?  I think you are just the person they need to get things moving in the right direction.

[mac123x]

My bet is on the green haired daughter of the Archon that Arianne used to play with as a child at the Water Gardens. 

[Winnief]

Ok I've also gotten word

that Bronn will be in Dorne next season as well.

Bear in mind that neither Jaime nor Bronn have to stay in Dorne indefinitely, but could be there for the first few episodes to help introduce us to this locale before heading off to the Riverlands.

 

Edited June 4, 2014 by Which Tyler

[ElizaD]

Etiquette question: would it be possible to discuss information freely in this thread without spoiler tags? I thought the Spoiler speculations thread was for posting confirmed spoilers, and this for general discussion of the adaptation including unconfirmed hints/guesses and spoilers. The conversation could get very choppy if set/cast reports and even unaired things from this season that have already been confirmed are in tags. I admit that I loved how the TWOP TV vs. Books thread worked, it was easy to read and everything could be posted and openly taken into consideration when talking about possible decisions (Character X is shown in Location A, could he be taking the place of Character Y) and confirmed stuff (Character Z is listed as appearing in episode 10, what does that say about the pacing of that plot).

 

IIRC, before S3 a Tyrell cousin audition video used dialogue set after Margaery's arrest. The plot change in that new audition video is just so odd that I think it's possible the name has been changed and the character who goes to Dorne will be different on the show.

[Which Tyler]

Etiquette question: would it be possible to discuss information freely in this thread without spoiler tags?

This thread is tagged as "Book Talk"

So:

If Tagged "Book Talk": There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into a potential spoiler you should just avoid these. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

The only information that needs to be in spoiler tags is anything released from the unpublished books - everything else is fair game in the open.

[Hecate7]

I think Tyrion is the raisonneur in the books and on the show. Therefore he is, although not the moral compass, the voice of sanity throughout most of the books. But hearing about Tysha makes him take leave of his senses. His break with Jaime, murders of Shae and Tywin, and his behavior pretty much until Penny starts influencing him and he begins to care what happens to her, are all consistent with temporary insanity. He is NOT Tyrion during that time. He is having a psychotic break.

 

I think either he will disintegrate into complete insanity in the books, while Tyrion haters say, "see? This was always who he was," and Tyrion fans freak in helpless confusion, or he will recover gradually under Penny's influence, because she really does help him be self aware. She's almost like a therapist, really. Jorah can't do it. It has to be someone who has actually experienced the same disadvantages as Tyrion, and not fallen apart. Tyrion's angry about being a dwarf. That's his crown of thorns. Only another dwarf can help him with this.

 

I expect the murders all to go down pretty much the way they did in the books, except that I think we will learn a great deal more on the show than we did in the books, about how Shae came to be in Tywin's bed. And Tyrion may end up killing her not in a jealous rage, but in self-defense, or to stop her from calling the guards.

[jjjmoss]

Honestly, when it comes to Shae, as Angel once said on his titular show: "Somehow, I just can't seem to care." The scene about Tysha impacting his relationship with Jaime, and that directly leading to his going to confront Tywin, is what's exciting to me.

[Avaleigh]

Hecate7, I hope you're right about us getting more info on how/why/when Shae ended up in Tywin's bed. Specifically, I'd like to know if/how long she's been a spy for Tywin and whether or not we get a sense of her being fearful of him or if she behaves in a confident way with him as she was with Tyrion. I wonder because I got the impression on the show that part of the reason she didn't care about being cautious about keeping their relationship a secret was because she knew there wasn't any huge risk to her safety with Tywin in her corner . I also got the impression that she seemed to be more cautious before Tywin came to the city and I'm guessing it's because she'd heard enough about Cersei to know that she's a lot more rash, less sensible, and less willing to be swayed by her personal charms than either her father or brother would be.

Re: next season, assuming it happens then, I think I'm most nervous about how they'll portray the Walk. I don't mind at all saying that I hope it's toned down in terms of how much they'll choose to show her body. I'd rather them focus more on the difficult job the guards have because of the hostility of the crowds. It's really too bad that we won't be able to hear her thoughts but I think having a voiceover would be terrible to put it mildly. As long as they keep in the 'I am not afraid/You should be' exchange I think that's the main chilling line that's needed during the actual walk. Plus who if anyone could Cersei talk to when she compares herself to her grandfather's mistress and how she wants to act more proud and dignified than that woman did. Having her in jail beforehand unable to communicate with anyone they're going to have quite a job conveying her state of mind during all of this. I guess it could be Kevan but somehow that doesn't seem right.

[Winnief]

 

Re: next season, assuming it happens then, I think I'm most nervous about how they'll portray the Walk. I don't mind at all saying that I hope it's toned down in terms of how much they'll choose to show her body.

 

I suspect Lena Headey will have some say in how much exposure she's given. I've noticed so far we haven't seen so much full frontal nudity from her.  Plus they'll probably have to cut the bit where they shave her head since the woman does have other acting jobs to do and can't just wait around for it to grow back.