Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Lady S.]

I agree to a point. I mean, yeah she changes, but I think it's only the path that was set up for her. She's always been paranoid and untrusting, seeking power where she can (like having only Jaime's kids which not only is her silent revenge on Robert, but also allows her to put a 100 percent Lannister on the throne). Joffrey's death sends her over the edge because she starts to become more and more haunted by the prophecy and how it's coming true -- and that of course drives her need to have Tyrion dead, because she thinks he's the valonqar. So these are not so much real changes in Cersei as they are her traits becoming more exaggerated.

 

Jaime on the other hand goes down a different path than the one he started on. The Jaime who pushed a child out of a window would never have gone back to help Brienne escape the bear. Probably wouldn't have helped Tyrion escape and definitely wouldn't have confessed the truth about Tysha. 

 

Re: Littlefinger's death. As gross as our speculation can be, how much grosser will it actually be? GRRM has a sick, sick mind.

Yes, it's only an increase in existing awfulness for Cersei but isn't Jaime's change only an increase in existing decency? He wanted to protect people from Aerys before he ever started trying to kill children to keep fucking Cersei. And he lived to protect Cersei and Tyrion (Tywin even frames the lie about Tysha as for Tyrion's own good by saying she was probably a gold-digger, with Jaime having no idea what Tywin was actually going to do to her and Tyrion), I don't think two-handed Jaime would have ever let Tyrion be killed either, I don't really see how that's due to Brienne's influence or his behanding, he makes allusions to the Tysha thing before ever revealing his lie so I think that was one thing he did feel guilt about, or at least shame. One could just as easily say Cersei would have never reached her full evil potential without Joff and Tywin's murder as say Jaime wouldn't have reached his non-Cersei potential without losing his sword hand, feeling rejected by Cersei, and having to choose between Cersei and Tyrion, which he'd never had to do before. They're both changes motivated entirely by circumstance rather than conscious choice. I think it's also notable that one of Jaime's grievances against Cersei is her refusal to come out of the incest closet now that Robert is dead, which is the one area where she's the more rational one. Also notable that he rejects her advances in White Sword Tower as being inappropriate after fucking her in the sept next to Joff's corpse, and that by the scene in White Sword Tower she's asking him to do the impossible, reason with Tywin.

 

Where is Jaime's "redemption" without Cersei's choices starting their estrangement? His eyes aren't suddenly opened on seeing her again, the Cersei of his dreams was an awful person whose abuse Jaime tried to protect Tyrion from, and whose orders Jaime followed as long as he was getting some, his only illusions about Cersei involved thinking she'd take no other lover when he was gone and would be willing to marry him on his return. And of course he gets turned off when she gets crazy enough to remind him of Aerys. But he still thinks of her as what he has instead of a wife, present tense, and reflects to Ilyn Payne that cutting out Cersei's tongue would be sweet, but would also hamper their kissing, and when he thinks about her letter he'd burned in ADwD, it's Tyrion's words about Lancel and Moon Boy that echo in his head, not any variation of "why should I care if that awful bitch lives or dies, it's all the same to me". He feels shame about the things he's done for her like chase after Arya but none at all about being with her in the first place, though that's a choice he's personally responsible for just as much as crippling Bran. Basically I think Jaime's thoughts about Cersei in AFfC are like Jack Donaghy's about his first wife in the early 30 Rock ep where they finally get divorced, he'd like to boff, marry, and kill her, all three. She only calls him a cripple after he starts refusing to do what she wants, and he only starts thinking bitterly of her after she becomes troublesome to him personally and Tyrion tells him she's a lying whore.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Lady S.

[Winnief]

 

Unless they are trying to shock non-book followers with his true depravity, I think a lot is going to be toned down. I wonder if instead of her being sexually assaulted, it's going to be about the impending threat of this happening, and that's why Theon escapes with her.

 

That would totally work-Ramsay and Miranda feel like they want another couple's "hunt" together, and they find some poor soul to be their 'prey' and schedule it for the next day first thing in the morning-but Reek/Theon takes off with her in the middle of the night.  It fits just fine for Theon's redemption arc, we have it all set up with Ramsay and Miranda's horrific hunt/murder of Tansy (which Theon witnessed,) and frankly do it that way we could spare ourselves some of the more...visceral details.  

 

In agreement about Cersei always having a vicious streak and being unstable to boot, (not to mention short sighted and self-destructive,) and that losing Joffrey and Tywin so closely together essentially just magnified those tendencies.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Winnief

[benteen]

I think the Fake Arya storyline is too important to Theon's redemption and the Battle for Winterfell but I think you really need to tread carefully on it.

[Hecate7]

They have to include fake Arya, but there's no reason she has to be Arya's age.

[benteen]

Agreed. She should be older. It would work too because half the Northern Lords know it's a farce anyway.

[Maximum Taco]

Agreed. She should be older. It would work too because half the Northern Lords know it's a farce anyway.

 

And even the ones that don't, it's acceptable. It's not like they are visiting Winterfell frequently and checking up on Ned's kids and they wouldn't be too occupied by the age of Ned Stark's youngest daughter, not until she comes of age and they can start asking for her hand. And Ned wasn't even entertaining offers for Sansa. He only agreed to marry her to Joffrey because it was the King who was asking.

 

So if they age Fake Arya up to Sansa's age it would be totally believable.

[Avaleigh]

I'm confused as to how Shireen works as a substitution for baby Mance. Why wouldn't Melisandre just burn Mance? How would she think she could do something like that without permanently alienating Stannis? Also, if the idea is to have Sam and Gilly be the ones to ferry Shireen to safety, what does the show do with her then? If they send her off with Davos somehow, that would be tough to tie into the Manderly plot. OTOH I kind of like the idea of Rickon and Shireen being friends for some reason not that I think that'll actually happen.

[Pete Martell]

On the topic of the Ramsay story. I don't know if this is a spoiler (it's about a possibly deleted scene), but just in case:

 

I was reading a thread at asoiaf and they mentioned a scene cut from episode 6 where Myranda, the woman Ramsay was having sex with, slapped him (apparently this was in a preview?). If he killed her and that explained the blood on his chest, then perhaps they are still planning to do a very violent fake Arya story. It's ironic if that backlash over the sept scene means a character who was supposed to be dark and violent gets softer treatment.

[Winnief]

 

I'm confused as to how Shireen works as a substitution for baby Mance. Why wouldn't Melisandre just burn Mance? How would she think she could do something like that without permanently alienating Stannis? Also, if the idea is to have Sam and Gilly be the ones to ferry Shireen to safety, what does the show do with her then? If they send her off with Davos somehow, that would be tough to tie into the Manderly plot. OTOH I kind of like the idea of Rickon and Shireen being friends for some reason not that I think that'll actually happen.

Personally, I sometimes have hoped that Shireen might one day wed Rickon-thus finally fulfilling the promise of a Baratheon/Stark marital alliance.  Besides, I think Shireen might like Shaggydog and the poor girl needs some friends her own age.  Getting her away from her psycho mom would be all to the good.  Most importantly, if it went down like that, then Shireen wouldn't die which is something I worry about-that Melisandre at some point might offer up Shireen for Seven knows what end-especially since on the show they seem to imply that Selyse would be willing to do that.  Oh, Stannis would never EVER allow it, (he'd probably step into the flames first himself,) but if Stannis wasn't there and Mel really believed it was necessary she might risk his wrath.  

[MarySNJ]

And even the ones that don't, it's acceptable. It's not like they are visiting Winterfell frequently and checking up on Ned's kids and they wouldn't be too occupied by the age of Ned Stark's youngest daughter, not until she comes of age and they can start asking for her hand. And Ned wasn't even entertaining offers for Sansa. He only agreed to marry her to Joffrey because it was the King who was asking.

 

So if they age Fake Arya up to Sansa's age it would be totally believable.

Well, fake Arya in the book was a friend of Sansa's so it makes sense that she would be of an age with Sansa anyway. There are only a couple of years difference between Sansa and Arya anyway, and I doubt the assembled northern Lords were keeping track of Eddard's daughters' birthdays, especially when they had bigger problems confronting them in recent months (years?).

[Avaleigh]

To me the biggest change about Selyse on the show is her attitude to Shireen. IIRC book Selyse is a bitch but she loves and feels very protective over her daughter. I can only think that the reason for the change is so that she won't oppose Melisandre when Mel comes up with the burn!Shireen plan but it still doesn't make sense why either woman would ever think this is a good idea particularly if they're in the presence of an enemy wildling with King's blood.

Since they made sure to have Sansa mention Jeyne Poole in the first season I'm inclined to think fake Arya is very much on the table. I only wish they'd already set up Littlefinger's role for what happens to that poor girl. I hope they don't take out that detail because it's a perfect example of why a man like Littlefinger is so dangerous and awful even to people who aren't standing in his way.

[benteen]

Yeah, out of the many crimes Littlefinger has committed, what he did to Jeyne Poole (or the "Steward's whelp" as he called her) is among his worst.

[Maximum Taco]

Yeah, out of the many crimes Littlefinger has committed, what he did to Jeyne Poole (or the "Steward's whelp" as he called her) is among his worst.

 

Jeyne Poole might be the most unfortunate person in the entire series to date. 

 

The poor girl.

[Hecate7]

What he did to Roz foreshadows fake Arya.

[Avaleigh]

I'm curious to know if Sansa and Jeyne will ever meet again. Sansa won't likely ever find out about all of the awful shit that Jeyne has suffered via Ramsay but I would be interested in having her thoughts about Littlefinger being the one to place Jeyne in the role of fake Arya. I honestly don't know how she'd feel about that.

I can imagine Arya being incredibly pissed off at the idea of Jeyne Poole impersonating her. I'm not even sure if the idea of Jeyne not having a choice in the matter would even register with her at this point since she's in such an unforgiving place. It wouldn't help of course that she and Jeyne were never all that friendly in the first place.

Eta:

This is really book speculation as I can't see them incorporating the relationships Jeyne had with Sansa and Arya on the show.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

I'm confused as to how Shireen works as a substitution for baby Mance. Why wouldn't Melisandre just burn Mance? How would she think she could do something like that without permanently alienating Stannis? Also, if the idea is to have Sam and Gilly be the ones to ferry Shireen to safety, what does the show do with her then? If they send her off with Davos somehow, that would be tough to tie into the Manderly plot. OTOH I kind of like the idea of Rickon and Shireen being friends for some reason not that I think that'll actually happen.

I assumed that was a hint toward a future book plot point, not a replacement of Mance's baby, since people frequently speculate on bad things happening to Shireen in future books. It's weird to replace a character who can just be written out of the story instead. Mance's baby pretty much only serves to get Gilly on the boat with Sam. The show's already established that Sam won't leave Gilly again, so if Jon does send Sam to Oldtown, Gilly can bring her own baby along to pass off as Sam's bastard. Lord Snow's hardass moment isn't terribly plot-important.

[Winnief]

 

I assumed that was a hint toward a future book plot point, not a replacement of Mance's baby, since people frequently speculate on bad things happening to Shireen in future books. It's weird to replace a character who can just be written out of the story instead. Mance's baby pretty much only serves to get Gilly on the boat with Sam. The show's already established that Sam won't leave Gilly again, so if Jon does send Sam to Oldtown, Gilly can bring her own baby along to pass off as Sam's bastard. Lord Snow's hardass moment isn't terribly plot-important.

 

Good point-it's entirely possible that the writers are just preparing to have whatever dangers face Shireen, (and even her possible demise-sob,) happen earlier on the show than they do in the books.  After all its been obvious for some time they were going to be dipping into TWOW next year and cutting out a lot of clutter in the name of tying all this together in seven seasons.  

[Avaleigh]

If they do include Mance's baby (and so far they haven't done anything to set that up) then maybe Val isn't off of the table after all. It's not that I think she's terribly important, I just think that she would be a good character for Jon to bounce some dialogue off of especially with characters like Sam, Grenn, and Pyp being out of the picture.

[Lady S.]

If they have cut Mance's baby, it'd be possible to still introduce Val in s5 and just have her be related directly to Mance, instead of to Dalla. Since Melly never intended to actually burn Mance, it's doubtful she ever intended to burn Mance's baby, since the idea was to burn Mance first so they'd both die kings. So it'd be possible for Val to be related directly to Mance without Melly trying to burn her, it's possible Mel never really believed Mance had kingsblood and that was all part of the show.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Lady S.

[jeansheridan]

I don't think non readers will be shocked at Shae' s death.  She has been more sympathetic in the series but her betrayal at the trial was cruel.  She basically helped get him killed.  

 

And I think Peter will rise to such a moment.  He gets to be Othello.  But I hope it is ugly.  Shae is scrappy and will fight hard.  The book doesn't give her much credit in that moment.  It is all rather dreamy & distant.

 

On the show Cersei has only bedded Lancel so that's the only person Tyrion can throw out to Jaime.  I wonder if Jaime will confess about Tyrion' s wife.  I don't think there will be time.  If only the beetle talk had been about her to remind us what happened.  

 

I think they need better scripts or story planning next season.  I know it is a tough adaptation but with just a bit more work it could be so much better.  I feel there was wasted time this season.  On a show with not enough time.

[Pete Martell]

I think the show favors more time, even if they don't have the material, for fan favorite characters, but even that doesn't deal with some of the pacing issues this season. And in Tyrion's case they did have the material, but they didn't want to touch it.

 

I just don't know what they're going to do about Shae. I guess fan reaction will upset me the most, because there are going to be a lot of memes about "hoes" and it's going to be something of a farce. Since the show decided to treat Shae more respectfully than the book had, I can only hope they will do the same in death. I'm not holding out much hope...

 

I also wonder what they'll do with Bran's story. I imagine it will just be a few scenes, but I wonder if they'll kill off Jojen, since I get the feeling he's slowly dying in the books anyway. 

[John Potts]

If they do include Jeyne, I can see Arya getting the hit on her (as her first job as a Faceless Man) and her being eager to carry out the hit on the girl who "Betrayed her family"... and then carrying it out as a mercy when she realises how Ramsay has been treating her.

[KatWay]

 

If they do include Jeyne, I can see Arya getting the hit on her (as her first job as a Faceless Man) and her being eager to carry out the hit on the girl who "Betrayed her family"... and then carrying it out as a mercy when she realises how Ramsay has been treating her.

But Arya knew Jeyne, if only vaguely. Don't the Faceless Men have rules about that kind of thing? I don't think Arya would be allowed to carry out a hit on somebody she knew, not to mention somebody posing as her.

[Maximum Taco]

But Arya knew Jeyne, if only vaguely. Don't the Faceless Men have rules about that kind of thing? I don't think Arya would be allowed to carry out a hit on somebody she knew, not to mention somebody posing as her.

 

Yes the Faceless Men do have rules like that.

 

In ADWD there's a chapter where they are discussing a contract, two of the assassins reject it because they know the intended target but the third says "I will give this man the gift, I know him not"

 

So it seems like you can't know the person at all to accept him/her as a contract.

[Avaleigh]

Good point, JeanSheridan, about Shae hopefully going out with more of a fight on the show. I honestly think Tyrion would have to do more than just strangle her. I feel like something else would have to help give him an advantage to where she can't fight him off or hurt him during the confrontation. Whatever he does though can't make much noise or else why wouldn't Tywin come out upon hearing the struggle?

Going back for a moment to the idea of Shae being a spy for Tywin---another clue is when Shae tells Sansa that she can get Littlefinger to stop if Littlefinger tries to pull any creepy shit on her. Sansa kind of laughs and wonders what Shae could possibly do but Shae seems very matter of fact and confident. I can't think why else she'd be so confident as she wouldn't really have reason to believe that Tyrion could keep Littlefinger in check. Tywin on the other hand?

I'd like it if the show would address why Robert or Tywin or even Joffrey didn't hire a Faceless Man long ago to deal with Dany and Viserys.

It's actually something that still confuses me about the books as well. I know they're supposed to be wildly expensive but it also seems like they go around giving the gift for free. Not only that but what if a FM who is the best person to get the job done but had once met the target? Is knowing the person still more important than getting the job done efficiently? That just seems silly IMO.

[Winnief]

 

 

If they do include Jeyne, I can see Arya getting the hit on her (as her first job as a Faceless Man) and her being eager to carry out the hit on the girl who "Betrayed her family"... and then carrying it out as a mercy when she realises how Ramsay has been treating her.

But Arya knew Jeyne, if only vaguely. Don't the Faceless Men have rules about that kind of thing? I don't think Arya would be allowed to carry out a hit on somebody she knew, not to mention somebody posing as her.

 

Sadly, I have no problem imagining Arya going off the ranch so to speak and deciding to kill Jeyne on her own initiative for Jeyne's perceived "betrayal."  She's done unauthorized kills before you know.  

 

 

 

Going back for a moment to the idea of Shae being a spy for Tywin---another clue is when Shae tells Sansa that she can get Littlefinger to stop if Littlefinger tries to pull any creepy shit on her. Sansa kind of laughs and wonders what Shae could possibly do but Shae seems very matter of fact and confident. I can't think why else she'd be so confident as she wouldn't really have reason to believe that Tyrion could keep Littlefinger in check. Tywin on the other hand?

I'd like it if the show would address why Robert or Tywin or even Joffrey didn't hire a Faceless Man long ago to deal with Dany and Viserys.

It's actually something that still confuses me about the books as well. I know they're supposed to be wildly expensive but it also seems like they go around giving the gift for free.

 

I do think Shae being a spy would work very well.

 

As for the FM, they *will* do kills for free but that's usually low level targets chosen by people who can't afford big sums.  For high level targets like the two last remaining Targaryens on the orders of someone like Robert or Tywin the cost would be enormous-still it does seem strange that Tywin didn't do it anyway.  After all he bet everything on the Targaryen's never coming back-seems like it would have made sense to ensure it completely and safeguard against the inconveniences of Dothraki or the Golden Company or other sellswords-hiring a FM would still definitely be cheaper (and far less troublesome) than having to deal with any of that .  Basically, I'm going to attribute that lapse on Tywin's part, to Dany's famous plot armor.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Winnief

[Maximum Taco]

Good point, JeanSheridan, about Shae hopefully going out with more of a fight on the show. I honestly think Tyrion would have to do more than just strangle her. I feel like something else would have to help give him an advantage to where she can't fight him off or hurt him during the confrontation. Whatever he does though can't make much noise or else why wouldn't Tywin come out upon hearing the struggle?

Going back for a moment to the idea of Shae being a spy for Tywin---another clue is when Shae tells Sansa that she can get Littlefinger to stop if Littlefinger tries to pull any creepy shit on her. Sansa kind of laughs and wonders what Shae could possibly do but Shae seems very matter of fact and confident. I can't think why else she'd be so confident as she wouldn't really have reason to believe that Tyrion could keep Littlefinger in check. Tywin on the other hand?

I'd like it if the show would address why Robert or Tywin or even Joffrey didn't hire a Faceless Man long ago to deal with Dany and Viserys.

It's actually something that still confuses me about the books as well. I know they're supposed to be wildly expensive but it also seems like they go around giving the gift for free. Not only that but what if a FM who is the best person to get the job done but had once met the target? Is knowing the person still more important than getting the job done efficiently? That just seems silly IMO.

 

I could be wrong on this but I don't think there are differences in the Faceless Men's proficiency. Their standards are so high that they'd all do the job well and there's so many different ways to kill a man, so there's no such thing as "the best person" for the job. They wouldn't take the job if only one Faceless Man was capable of doing it.

 

As to their expense, I believe that it's been stated that while they can be expensive, it is not a requirement. You go to them and tell them who you want killed and then a negotiation starts. Also, they will never charge a price that is impossible to pay. They might ask for all of your money for the next year (or for the rest of your life), or your first born child, or your life itself (either death or servitude), but if you really want to kill someone, and nothing else matters to you, you will be able to hire them.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[KatWay]

 

Sadly, I have no problem imagining Arya going off the ranch so to speak and deciding to kill Jeyne on her own initiative for Jeyne's perceived "betrayal."  She's done unauthorized kills before you know.

Does she even know about Jeyne Poole? Why would she necessarily jump to the conclusion that Jeyne is doing that voluntarily instead of being forced? And she's all the way up North while Arya is still hanging around Braavos. All the people on Arya's list are people who she personally witnessed being assholes or doing something bad. She didn't even add the Freys, because she wasn't sure who exactly was responsible. There's no reason to assume she'd kill Jeyne Poole (or Sansa, as is sometimes speculated).

[Haleth]

I hope they include the fake Arya storyline so we get to see Mance Rayder do something.  So far the casting of Ciaran Hinds has been a waste of a terrific actor.

[Avaleigh]

Does she even know about Jeyne Poole? Why would she necessarily jump to the conclusion that Jeyne is doing that voluntarily instead of being forced? And she's all the way up North while Arya is still hanging around Braavos. All the people on Arya's list are people who she personally witnessed being assholes or doing something bad. She didn't even add the Freys, because she wasn't sure who exactly was responsible. There's no reason to assume she'd kill Jeyne Poole (or Sansa, as is sometimes speculated).

Wasn't Jeyne the girl who saddled Arya with the nickname Arya Horseface? Lol while teasing obviously isn't a good enough reason for Arya to go jumping to conclusions, I can see Arya automatically thinking the very worst of a "stupid" girl like Jeyne . Arya seemed to resent both Sansa and Jeyne so it isn't hard for me to imagine her feeling incredibly pissed off and frustrated that Jeyne of all people is posing as her and has even been able to live in Winterfell again. I can see it being a situation where she doesn't find out how horrible Ramsay is. I can see this being her impression especially if she somehow hears something about Ramsay being the Northman who punished Theon.

Eta

Identity is such a huge thing with Arya it's hard for me to believe that she wouldn't freak out over the idea of someone taking the identity she so very much wants (IMO anyway) to reclaim as her own.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Avaleigh

[jjjmoss]

Shae hopefully going out with more of a fight on the show.

 

She actually fakes her death, and after Tyrion's done killing Tywin, she goes up to him and strangles him instead, dumps his body somewhere it won't be found, and runs off to take his storyline. TWIST.

[KatWay]

 

I can see Arya automatically thinking the very worst of a "stupid" girl like Jeyne . Arya seemed to resent both Sansa and Jeyne so it isn't hard for me to imagine her feeling incredibly pissed off and frustrated that Jeyne of all people is posing as her and has even been able to live in Winterfell again.

Arya is far, far away from all that though. And so far she's shown zero indication that she will kill people for being slightly mean to her. The people she wants to kill have murdered people, or sold someone out to awful people, and they felt unrepentant. Jeyne has done nothing of the sort, and neither has Sansa. Resenting somebody over some childish teasing is very, very different from resenting someone for killing people she cares about and nothing in Arya's behaviour has indicated that she can't distinguish between that. She is actually still quite sentimental in a way - she crossed the Hound off her list because she came to know him, even though he killed Mycah. That's not a black and white worldview. She was annoyed by the boys who accompanied her with the Night's Watch, but she vowed to avenge their deaths, and didn't plan them herself.

 

Like I said, if she won't even add the Freys because she wasn't there firsthand to witness who did what, why would she kill Jeyne, a mere girl, over something she also has no direct knowledge of? And if she spent two seconds with her she'd realise instantly that the poor girl was hardly living it up with her identity.

[cheyz]

I think there is something more to Val's reaction to Shireen. Maybe greyscale comes back later on as something worse, or it is somehow tied to the Others. I just don't see how a society would come to kill a seemingly healthy, recovered child without there being a really good reason.

 

One other change I've noticed from the books, is they have totally ignored the democracy angle to the wildings. I would have thought that was a setup to the end, that after the Others are defeated and the ruling families decimated, that Westeros society would have the example of the wildings to modernize them.

[Maximum Taco]

I think there is something more to Val's reaction to Shireen. Maybe greyscale comes back later on as something worse, or it is somehow tied to the Others. I just don't see how a society would come to kill a seemingly healthy, recovered child without there being a really good reason.

 

One other change I've noticed from the books, is they have totally ignored the democracy angle to the wildings. I would have thought that was a setup to the end, that after the Others are defeated and the ruling families decimated, that Westeros society would have the example of the wildings to modernize them.

Do you see the wildlings as democratic people? I don't.

 

They don't vote on things and do what the majority wants, they just do whatever they want, and if someone doesn't agree with them they, at best ignore them and at worst kill them.

 

They are anarchists or a meritocracy at best. Even when Mance had united most of the clans he still had to kill a few people to get the others to follow him. And even Mance their "elected leader" can't promise they'll keep the king's peace once they settle on the other side of the wall.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[sev]

On the topic of the Ramsay story. I don't know if this is a spoiler (it's about a possibly deleted scene), but just in case:

 

I was reading a thread at asoiaf and they mentioned a scene cut from episode 6 where Myranda, the woman Ramsay was having sex with, slapped him (apparently this was in a preview?). If he killed her and that explained the blood on his chest, then perhaps they are still planning to do a very violent fake Arya story. It's ironic if that backlash over the sept scene means a character who was supposed to be dark and violent gets softer treatment.

It's only ironic when the writing is so 'brilliant' that for 3 consecutive episodes (sept, Craster's, Ramsay) the show depicted the darkness in a character by having them sexually attacking women. I'd say, with that possible cut, the female viewership is the one who got  a less harsher treatment. 

[Pete Martell]

I agree...I'm not a woman, but it's not something I wanted to see, and I wouldn't want women to have to see that week after week either.

It's just that if they do the fake Arya story next season, I can see some TV show-only fans saying it's OOC or that he was only mean to Theon and that one woman from one episode that most people may not remember.

To be honest I'd rather they just take out most of the fake Arya story altogether, aside from what they have to show for the North and for Theon's character.

[Winnief]

 

To be honest I'd rather they just take out most of the fake Arya story altogether, aside from what they have to show for the North and for Theon's character.

 

Seriously.  Sometimes, I feel the problem isn't that they're depicting a society that's so violent towards women, so much that their depiction of this violence often seems to be going for lurid detail with all the maximum nudity and so forth.  If they handled it more discreetly choosing to focus on the aftermath and consequences rather than say close-ups of actresses doing full frontal nudity, I think fans wouldn't have as much of a problem with it.  No one, for instance ever objected to Gilly's storyline, because it didn't revel in the horrors that Gilly endured but rather concentrated on her efforts to get away and how someone so damaged could still possess hope and compassion.  Whereas the scenes of Karl and Rast at the Keep post mutiny just seemed to be glorifying in torture porn.  Context and sensitivity are key in matters like this.

 

(If you want to titillate us HBO, then do it with consensual sex scenes!  And let's not be afraid to let the men bare all too!) 

 

As I was musing on another board one interesting factor next season is that since AFFC and ADWD were right light on prominent, important deaths, and the show by this point has a reputation to uphold, (not to mention an excess of characters with a bunch of new ones coming in,) it's entirely possible that deaths scheduled for further down the line might happen more immediately or death to characters D&D *know* aren't necessary to the series conclusion.  If as I suspect we do get the Battles of Mereen and Winterfell in Season Five there will probably be quite a few casualties right there.  And I have my fears for Edmure and Shireen.  The latter would really hurt.

[WearyTraveler]

I thought I noticed they used a variation of the "A Song of Ice and Fire" introductory theme song during the entire episode at The Wall, then I read other people had heard it too, so, it wasn't just my imagination.

 

What do you guys think of that? Is it a clue to Jon's future importance? or is that only my own wishful thinking?

[Winnief]

 

What do you guys think of that? Is it a clue to Jon's future importance? or is that only my own wishful thinking?

 

Well, Jon's about to be promoted to LC of the NW and I'm betting the truth about his parentage will come out by the end of Season Five, so maybe it isn't.  

[benteen]

I don't know if we'll get the truth or not at the end of Season 5.  They need to start addressing the backstory behind it though.

[Avaleigh]

They had a perfect opportunity to bring up Lyanna during that early Oberyn Tyrion conversation but they didn't even have him say her name to remind people of the character.

[WearyTraveler]

They had a perfect opportunity to bring up Lyanna during that early Oberyn Tyrion conversation but they didn't even have him say her name to remind people of the character.

 

I wonder how much of that is the showrunners' desire to not spill the beans too early.  Shows like these get dissected online so thoroughly, and the books had already garnished such a cult following before the show came on, that I can see a reluctance to show their hand.  Time will tell, I guess.

[Hecate7]

Identity is such a huge thing with Arya it's hard for me to believe that she wouldn't freak out over the idea of someone taking the identity she so very much wants (IMO anyway) to reclaim as her own.

How do we know she wants to reclaim it? I know she really wanted to find her family, when there was a family to find, but did she really want to be Lady Arya Stark, the younger sister of Robb and Sansa Stark, who is promised to some Frey kid or other, and destined to have heirs and spares for some great house? Wasn't that exactly what she wanted to get away from in the first place? 

 

I would seriously like Arya to stop looking for her relatives, because every time she gets anywhere close to reuniting with them, they die. think Arya could well be a human embodiment of The Stranger, and that walking with her for too long is the kiss of death. With the exception of Gendry and Hot Pie, everyone she's ever gotten close to has died. People drop dead if she's even thinking about going to their house! I think that's her superpower. With that in mind, I want her to NEVER meet Tyrion, ever, and for her to stay as far away from Jon Snow and from Bran as it's humanly possible for the story to take her. I also hope the near miss in the Vale is as close as she gets to Sansa from now on. I kind of like Sansa, at least, I have up until now.

[Avaleigh]

I think hiding Needle is the main thing that indicates Arya would one day like to reclaim her real identity.

While I agree that Arya wouldn't have wanted to be a princess who was sent off to marry some guy in order to make an alliance, I don't think she'd object hugely to being the Lady of Winterfell since she loved it so much.

Again though, my thought is that Arya wouldn't necessarily hear about Ramsay being a bad guy, just that he was a Bolton from the North who gave Theon some vicious payback after Theon killed her two younger brothers.

Re: Arya getting close to people, I guess she does have that effect. OTOH, the Kindly Man is still with us. He's the only one I can think of unless Sam counts. Lol, should Roose be worried?

As much as I was one of those people who loved, loved Arya's scenes with Tywin part of me thinks that he probably would have put two and two together but for storyline purposes it obviously couldn't have been done. I think I'd have felt the same had Arya had scenes with Roose instead. All this being said, the Littlefinger moment worked for me in that I could see him initially not taking notice of a serving girl. Varys though IMO would have instantly known it was Arya.

[snowblossom2]

Can someone remind me where we learn that Littlefinger gives Ramsey Jeyne to use as fake Arya? I don't remember that part and obviously am due for a re-read of the series!

[Maximum Taco]

Can someone remind me where we learn that Littlefinger gives Ramsey Jeyne to use as fake Arya? I don't remember that part and obviously am due for a re-read of the series!

 

It follows GRRM's pattern of subtle clue (for the careful reader), obvious clue (for the less careful reader), outright saying what's going on (for the casual reader)

 

The subtle clue is in a ASOS. Jaime is saying goodbye to the escort Roose Bolton sent with him to Kings Landing and a girl is going with them as they return to the North. She claims to be Arya Stark, but Jaime doesn't recognize her. When Jaime gives Brienne Oathkeeper, he tells Brienne that it isn't actually Arya Stark, just some girl with Northern colouring they pinned a wolf brooch on, so Brienne won't go off chasing a fake. 

 

There's nothing explicitly saying it's Jeyne Poole, but she's the only other Northern girl in the capital we know, so you could infer it's her, but it could still be some nameless girl we've never met.

 

The obvious clue is in AFFC. Cersei tells the Small Council that Arya Stark is in Lord Bolton's custody but she think to herself that it isn't Arya Stark, but instead a "stewards whelp" provided by Littlefinger.

 

Here you can easily infer it's Jeyne, since she is both a steward's daughter and a Northern girl. In fact it would be unlikely to be anyone but Jeyne. And this is the first confirmation of Littlefinger's involvement.

 

The outright saying it is obviously in ADWD. "Jeyne, her name is Jeyne, it rhymes with pain."

Edited June 15, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[KatWay]

 

As much as I was one of those people who loved, loved Arya's scenes with Tywin part of me thinks that he probably would have put two and two together but for storyline purposes it obviously couldn't have been done.

I thought as well that Tywin not recognising her made no sense, at least he should have kept her around and kept an eye on her. I also thought Littlefinger being so unprepared in ep 8 made no sense. Book Littlefinger never would have not prepped Sansa, not have thought of an excuse. I mean, the scene was great, but the show does take some liberties sometimes with making characters look dumb to get an exciting scene.

 

I do feel like Littlefinger really suffers in comparison to the book. He comes off insanely smart in the books and really good at flying under the radar and avoiding any suspicion. TV Littlefinger just comes across as lucking into opportunities to wreak havoc and he practically oozes smarminess. And they make him do dumb stuff like this (taking Marillion out of the moon door scene gives it a totally different vibe).

[Ffiferoo]

I think it's really hard when we can't experience other characters putting the pieces together with everything Littlefinger does.  He seems so obvious and like he's constantly showing his hand for no reason on the show, and I wish there was some other way to make it more subtle, but I don't know that there is one.  It's definitely one of the things I dislike most on the show, but I also feel like with how confusing everything must already be for casual viewers, keeping him more secretive might make it impossible to follow, and he's very entrenched in so many of the plot threads that it would get problematic.  

 

I do hope that they figure out a good way to work in the fake Arya plot.  I think that it being someone familiar from Theon's time at Winterfell was really instrumental in helping him muster the strength to finally make his escape.  There are a lot of things working against it at this point though, not the least of which being the change to Mance in the show.  Ciaran Hinds' version doesn't even seem like someone who would take on that bard role, and the inclusion of the seemingly positive sexual relationship between Ramsay and Myranda seems to change his character as well.  For a minute during the Ironborn siege on the Dreafort I was sure that they would get captured and Yara would end up being the fake Arya, but I'm very glad that didn't happen.

[snowblossom2]

It follows GRRM's pattern of subtle clue (for the careful reader), obvious clue (for the less careful reader), outright saying what's going on (for the casual reader)

 

The subtle clue is in a ASOS. Jaime is saying goodbye to the escort Roose Bolton sent with him to Kings Landing and a girl is going with them as they return to the North. She claims to be Arya Stark, but Jaime doesn't recognize her. When Jaime gives Brienne Oathkeeper, he tells Brienne that it isn't actually Arya Stark, just some girl with Northern colouring they pinned a wolf brooch on, so Brienne won't go off chasing a fake. 

 

There's nothing explicitly saying it's Jeyne Poole, but she's the only other Northern girl in the capital we know, so you could infer it's her, but it could still be some nameless girl we've never met.

 

The obvious clue is in AFFC. Cersei tells the Small Council that Arya Stark is in Lord Bolton's custody but she think to herself that it isn't Arya Stark, but instead a "stewards whelp" provided by Littlefinger.

 

Here you can easily infer it's Jeyne, since she is both a steward's daughter and a Northern girl. In fact it would be unlikely to be anyone but Jeyne. And this is the first confirmation of Littlefinger's involvement.

 

The outright saying it is obviously in ADWD. "Jeyne, her name is Jeyne, it rhymes with pain."

Ah, thanks. I didn't catch the Ceresi saying it was at Littlefinger's behest!

[benteen]

If I recall as well, when Sansa and Jeyne are brought to Cersei, Cersei sends Jeyne to Littlefinger.

 

GRRM has talked about how the portrayal of Littlefinger has differed on the show.  Someone asked him how he isn't suspected more or something to that effect and GRRM said in the books basically "everyone trusts Littlefinger because he's everyone's friend."  Book Littlefinger doesn't give these speeches in front of people discussing his plans and wouldn't have been dumb enough to throw Cersei's incest right in front of her face like he did on the show.  Nor would he have killed Lysa without a back-up plan.

 

I posted this in the media section originally but decided to edit it out and put it over here just in case there are any non-bookreaders who want to start things from the beginning...

 

On the subject of killing off leads, it was definitely a big moment on the show when Ned Stark got killed off.  The one thing I would point out though is the only reason he got killed off was because he was killed off in the source material.  If Game of Thrones was a completely original work for television, Ned NEVER would have been killed off.  You might have a slim chance of pulling it off on HBO of if it happened early but Ned Stark would have survived till the end.  No show is that brave, not even on cable and basic cable, not even in this golden era of television.

Edited June 15, 2014 by benteen