Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[SeanC]

Unless there's some sort of Dorne reveal in 5x10, that plot will have been the weirdest in season 5. When they cast three Sand Snakes, I thought it must be because they're important in TWOW. But if Trystane is the only one who goes to KL and there's no plan to support either Dany or Trystane/Myrcella, Dorne is basically Qarth/Astapor: a disposable one-season location that adds one supporting character to a bigger plot (Missandei/Trystane).

I expect there will be some sort of plan revealed (whether in the finale or next season), but that won't fix most of the problems with the plot until now.

[Pete Martell]

Yeah, in the books I never really felt like Tywin was the central villain, in the show he was very much exactly that. The show did a much better job than the books of showing just how deep Tywin's complete control of the world really was.

 

Also, I saw an interesting point made somewhere, perhaps on this very board (?) that D&D's attitude toward Stannis may not have influenced their portrayal of him so much as the character influenced their attitude toward him. It's not as if George was spooning them bits of story over the course of years as we're receiving it; they probably knew going in or at least when plotting character arcs that Stannis would eventually burn his beloved daughter at the stake. They have always known that it would be a huge climactic moment of his character. I mean, let's be reasonable here. Why would they just arbitrarily dislike a character and decide to write him shallowly as punishment for the character existing?

 

I don't think D&D dislike Stannis as much as they just don't care about him.

 

For instance, I don't really believe D&D care about Sansa (even if they say she's one of their favorites), but I don't think they dislike her. They took out some things that would have made her even more hated (like being the one to tell Cersei that Ned was planning to flee KL with she [her?] and Arya). Yet they've also severely undercut her narrative over the last 3 seasons, and this season has made her pretty much unrecognizable in my eyes. I think it's because they see her as an object, a means to an end. Similar to many other characters I once thought they might have cared about, like Margaery (who has been made into a complete idiot over the last two seasons, and likely would have been painted as a sexual predator if not for Natalie Dormer's efforts), or Theon (who pretty much became a fifth-string player in the Winterfell story once D&D saw the opportunity to dust off old Joffrey/Sansa scripts). 

 

There's also the "mother's love" trope they use for female characters they likely see as too difficult to translate. Catelyn was marginalized but ultimately remembered because she was a loving mother. Selyse has been a bit player, even more than in the books, but ultimately, she was a loving mother.

 

In Stannis' case, I think they saw the outline (dour commander hooks up with sexy zealot who convinces him to burn his daughter alive), and that was about it. Outside of the "shock" of his burning his daughter alive, the shadow baby, etc. there hasn't been much they cared about, beyond adding some more "shocks" of their own (like Stannis nailing her on the table, Stannis trying to choke her to death, etc.). Now I realize the last two seasons and the few attempts to show other sides of him were just to fake viewers out before his inevitable descent into hate figure and doomed follower.

 

Considering how perpetually bored I am or have become by those D&D do seem to be fond of, like Bronn, Brienne, Arya and Tyrion, maybe I should be pleased they don't care much about some of the people I was interested in.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Pete Martell

[SeanC]

Regarding the theory that the writers' take on Stannis was influenced by their knowing how this ends, I think the earliest they could have learned about this was between seasons 2 and 3, because Shireen wasn't in the second season and Bryan Cogman outright explained this (and the ambiguous dialogue between Stannis and Mel regarding children) by stating that the writers didn't know whether they were going to have Shireen on the show.  If they knew from the beginning about this, it seems unlikely there would ever have been a question about her being present.

[Pete Martell]

I find it interesting that the show runners say Tywin isn't a villain when feel like they showed so well that he was one.  Interesting.

 

I don't think the show made him much of a villain until season 4 (if they had reluctance in seeing him that way, no wonder that season had such lukewarm and oddly disjointed Lannister dynamics [to me anyway]). Season 2 had him in all those stern-but-fair-granpda scenes with Arya, and season 3 had him more as the bad-ass ruler getting his family into shape than as a villain - even the Red Wedding was equivocated, with D&D's lack of interest in the North (other than as a place to show off their prize stud Ramsay) compounding that stance.

[cheyz]

For instance, I don't really believe D&D care about Sansa (even if they say she's one of their favorites), but I don't think they dislike her. They took out some things that would have made her even more hated (like being the one to tell Cersei that Ned was planning to flee KL with she [her?] and Arya). 

 

 

I think that was GRRM's decision. I remember reading that he was surprised so many people blamed Sansa for Ned's death because of that, and that wasn't what he had intended.

[Cheshrkat]

Yeah, after reflecting on this whole thing I really think this is my biggest issue with how they handled this storyline. Like you said, I could buy that Stannis would get there eventually (though it would still be awful obviously), but they really needed to do more to earn that moment.

 

I agree with this too.  It's so unfortunate, in that I think they are otherwise very heavy handed.  Contrast building up Stannis' desperation and feeling there was no other choice with the way they have set up Olly as being likely to stab Jon "For the Watch".  I could be wrong and it could go down differently, but that's what I'm seeing happen next week.  In the books, the FTW moment came as a complete shock to me - which isn't to say that GRRM didn't lay the foundation for it happening - he absolutely did.  But I did not spend half the book waiting for Jon to be stabbed by his own men.  Whereas I'm reading a lot of reviews and comments from otherwise unsullied viewers and half of them have been expecting Olly to kill or at least attempt to kill Jon since the second episode of the season.  The many (many many) lingering shots of Olly's disapproval have all led to that.  So why couldn't the writers have been a bit more balanced?  Forego a few shots of Olly glaring at Jon and build in a few more scenes of Stannis' wrestling with his decision?

 

[Winnief]

 

I think that was GRRM's decision. I remember reading that he was surprised so many people blamed Sansa for Ned's death because of that, and that wasn't what he had intended.

I think that's exactly what they were doing and Martin, (and the showrunners) desire to make sure ShowSansa could not be blamed in any way for what happened to Ned, says *something* about her future importance-it's just not clear what.  I do think that D&D, (and quite a lot of readers as well,) find Sansa more difficult to work with as a character because she's so internalized AND so stereotypically girly girl while Arya the tomboy turned assassin/apprentice is much more action based.  I think they like her as a character, (or at least they love Sophie's portrayal,) but they do have trouble knowing how to best use her.  I wonder if that wasn't part of the reason they gave Sansa, Jeyne's story because they just didn't think her lessons in courtly intrigue in the books to make for good tv.  This needless to say was a questionable move on their part.  Though, irony of all ironies, Arya's FM training which theoretically should have been exciting has been boring Sullied and Unsullied alike this season.  Whatever other criticisms can be made about Sansa's storyline she *is* interacting with other characters and now that she's up North seems much more connected to the other plotlines-not to mention being likely to soon intersect with Jon's plotline and I'm sure you know my theories about that.

 

The many (many many) lingering shots of Olly's disapproval have all led to that.  So why couldn't the writers have been a bit more balanced?  Forego a few shots of Olly glaring at Jon and build in a few more scenes of Stannis' wrestling with his decision?

 

Good point.  They certainly foreshadowed Shireen's death, but I honestly didn't expect it to come from Stannis but rather Selyse and Mel going rogue.  Showing a little more growing desperation at the camp would have helped, I agree.

[benteen]

The struggles with Arya's storyline haven't surprised me because like in the books, she is just so far removed from Westeros.  Making Jaqen her mentor was the correct move but doesn't change the problem of her being so far removed from all the action.

 

In regards to Sansa, I can see how a whole season in the Eyrie would need something to spice it up.

 

1000 times yes at the foreshadowing issues.  This partially goes back to them having so many characters that it's hard to develop these things onscreen but on the show, at the first sign of difficulty, Melisandre immediately brings up burning Shireen.  There was no real desperation or build-up for it at all. 

 

With Olly, having him glare at Jon non-stop and his background has telegraphed his eventual betrayal a mile away.

[Winnief]

The struggles with Arya's storyline haven't surprised me because like in the books, she is just so far removed from Westeros.  Making Jaqen her mentor was the correct move but doesn't change the problem of her being so far removed from all the action.

 

We really need to get her with some of the other characters again.  Note how Tyrion's arrival in Mereen has already immeasurably improved Dany's storyline.   Hell, it's half the reason they brought Meryn Trant and Mace to Braavos but by itself Meryn's imminent demise just isn't enough...not unless Arya gets mixed up somehow with Mace and/or the rest of his ship....

[benteen]

I've love to see Arya save Mace's life from Trant and him owe her a life debt.  Won't happen but that would be cool.

[Umbelina]

I think the one place the showrunners really missed the boat is in the character of Jamie Lannister.  On the page he was a fascinating, troubled, and eventually very sympathetic character.  Who knew that the ass that threw Bran out of a window could evolve into someone we could care about?  He's such a complicated anti-hero, and on the page very compelling.  They got a bit of it back with his Brienne scenes, then threw it all away again.

 

I really think the rape scene with Cersei put the final nail in his coffin, and why did they do that?  The scene as written in the book was so much more, but they cheapened it and they had the perfect opportunity right there to show the many layers between those two. As icky as their relationship is, on the page you get it.  On the show, Cersei is just a victim, and Jamie an asshole (again.)

 

I wonder if they really never understood Jamie, or if it has more to do with their knowledge of the end game of the books?

[Hecate7]

I think the one place the showrunners really missed the boat is in the character of Jamie Lannister.  On the page he was a fascinating, troubled, and eventually very sympathetic character.  Who knew that the ass that threw Bran out of a window could evolve into someone we could care about?  He's such a complicated anti-hero, and on the page very compelling.  They got a bit of it back with his Brienne scenes, then threw it all away again.

 

I really think the rape scene with Cersei put the final nail in his coffin, and why did they do that?  The scene as written in the book was so much more, but they cheapened it and they had the perfect opportunity right there to show the many layers between those two. As icky as their relationship is, on the page you get it.  On the show, Cersei is just a victim, and Jamie an asshole (again.)

 

I wonder if they really never understood Jamie, or if it has more to do with their knowledge of the end game of the books?

 

I don't think they do understand Jaime at all. They wouldn't have had him kill his cousin if they did. And they wouldn't have changed the sept scene, but I think that one is more about them not understanding what rape is, than about them wanting Jaime to look like an ass again.

 

I think there's some endgame knowledge, because they changed the way the brothers Lannister said goodbye. In the books, Jaime isn't resolved to kill Tyrion at all, but Tyrion has promised to kill Jaime. They most likely do have an endgame plan that they think will play better if we're on Tyrion's side, not Jaime's, when the time comes. This may involve changing Jaime quite a bit.

[Oscirus]

If she does escape Winterfell is there anyone in Westeros that'll be so hunted.   Cersei and House Lannister will want her to answer for her part in Joffrey's demise (or just Cersei if she get's out of her current predicament), Littlefinger will want his future Highborn Pawn and Lust Object back and Ramsay would swim through a river of blood to regain posession of his pretty, highborn wife.

 

You pretty much highlighted why Sansa isn't dying. A character with this much conflict is not going to die anytime soon.  Not to mention her storylines with Arya, Cersei and Littlefinger aren't resolved yet.

 

I think it's because they see her as an object, a means to an end

 

I would argue that Sansa is the most realistically written character on the show. While most of the characters are heroes because the writing dictates it, Sansa is a hero because she's not supposed to be one. She's not a bad ass fighter, she's not a female desperately trying to hold on to her power, she doesn't have magic powers,  hell she's not even a diplomat, she's just a highborn lady trying desperately to survive the horrible circumstances that continually get thrust upon her.  At the start of this season, Sansa had three things going for her: her looks, her family name and  her virginity. By stripping her of one of her assets and forcing her to solve the "locked room" mystery, they've forced her to grow up and stop living with the mindset where she waits for a prince will come to save her. I tend to believe that D&D demonstrate what Sansa is pretty well on the show.

 

I actually like when they foreshadow distant future events, not so much when they foreshadow the closer events.  The closer they get to said event, the more they tend to overdo it.

 

 

[Avaleigh]

This was probably obvious to everyone but me but apparently they're going to play

Rains during the Walk.

[Pete Martell]

I think that was GRRM's decision. I remember reading that he was surprised so many people blamed Sansa for Ned's death because of that, and that wasn't what he had intended.

 

Thanks. 

 

After this season I need to stop giving D&D credit for anything...

[Pete Martell]

I would argue that Sansa is the most realistically written character on the show. While most of the characters are heroes because the writing dictates it, Sansa is a hero because she's not supposed to be one. She's not a bad ass fighter, she's not a female desperately trying to hold on to her power, she doesn't have magic powers,  hell she's not even a diplomat, she's just a highborn lady trying desperately to survive the horrible circumstances that continually get thrust upon her.  At the start of this season, Sansa had three things going for her: her looks, her family name and  her virginity. By stripping her of one of her assets and forcing her to solve the "locked room" mystery, they've forced her to grow up and stop living with the mindset where she waits for a prince will come to save her. I tend to believe that D&D demonstrate what Sansa is pretty well on the show.

 

I would have agreed up to this season. I don't think they've had her grow up - letting Baelish manipulate her yet again, cutting her eyes at Ramsay behind his back at the meal, the general high-handed way she was with Reek and Myranda before the rape...if anything I feel like the show was trying to say she was immature and impulsive. And what's happened since the rape - calling Ramsay a bastard, assuming all she needed to do to get through to someone who had been tortured and mutilated was to try to guilt him - hasn't been much better. I used to at least believe that Sansa could survive King's Landing (yes, with Tyrion's help, but she still had to survive on her own until his arrival). I don't really have the ability to believe that Ramsay would have been able to stop himself from killing her, heir or no heir. So it's taken me from fully believing in her story to seeing it as another generic string of contrivances, a way to mark time and punish her until yet another stunt on finale night.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Pete Martell

[MadMouse]

The problem with Jaime's characterization is two fold. One is the change in Cersei's character, she's been written far more sympathetic in the show and and other than the Lancel scene she seems to truly love Jaime. This cuts into him getting away from her and questioning not just his feelings for her but his actions. The second is so much of who he is as a person is directly tied into the the events leading up to and after the rebellion. Show only watchers really have no clue about about the Mad King, Rhaegar and the insanity of events that happened. So it undercuts a majority of his growth as a character. His confession to Brienne has none of the impact without the knowledge of events he was talking about. And that's only one example, most of his big changes when it comes to himself are related to the past. His dream of Rhaegar, the Smiling Knight, reforming the KG, etc. I'll go event farther and say the lack of backstory has hurt a majority of characters when it comes to understanding them.

[magdalene]

The way they have done Jaime on the show makes me wonder whether they have read all of the Jaime POV chapters, especially in AFFC.  And they just discarded so much good story and added shit - Jaime killing a cousin who doesn't even exist in the books - which is totally out of character. And to cap it all off here is this lame Dorne story where Jaime is nothing but window dressing. It makes me sad.

[benteen]

I would have agreed up to this season. I don't think they've had her grow up - letting Baelish manipulate her yet again, cutting her eyes at Ramsay behind his back at the meal, the general high-handed way she was with Reek and Myranda before the rape...if anything I feel like the show was trying to say she was immature and impulsive. And what's happened since the rape - calling Ramsay a bastard, assuming all she needed to do to get through to someone who had been tortured and mutilated was to try to guilt him - hasn't been much better. I used to at least believe that Sansa could survive King's Landing (yes, with Tyrion's help, but she still had to survive on her own until his arrival). I don't really have the ability to believe that Ramsay would have been able to stop himself from killing her, heir or no heir. So it's taken me from fully believing in her story to seeing it as another generic string of contrivances, a way to mark time and punish her until yet another stunt on finale night.

 

The sad reality is that Sansa hasn't really done anything this year but be the victim.  Sorry, Cogman but being manipulated again by Littlefinger into thinking she had a choice doesn't count as her being pro-active.  Once at Winterfell, she does very little but sulk and wait for Stannis to show up.  Then we get Ramsay brutalizing her.  It looks like she'll be a more active factor in her rescue but pretty much this season has just be a repeat of being of the usual victim who eventually escapes card for Sansa.

 

After this season you cannot have Sansa go back to Littlefinger and act like everything is fine.  Unless she is the one who is deliberately manipulating him.  That would be nice to see.

 

 

On the subject of Jaime, it's important that HE'S the one who has to break away from Cersei and not the other way around.  On this show, I don't know if that will be the case.  They seem to have greater sympathy for Cersei than they do for Jaime.  Book Cersei has done far worse things than Book Jaime yet they give Jaime stuff like cousin-killing and rape while the bastard massacre is shuffled off to Joffrey. 

 

As for whether D&D understand Jaime, that's difficult to stay.  When they stuck to his book material, we got great stuff from him like Season 1 and Season 3.  His relationship with Brienne has been terrific onscreen.  But when they go into business for themselves on Jaime, you get stuff like cousin-killing, raping Cersei in the sept and the entire Dorne storyline.  Jaime was riding a wave of momentum after his stellar Season 3 storyline (which should have gotten NCW at least an Emmy nomination) but D&D did an enourmous amount of damange to his character with that sept scene, where it was portrayed as a rape scene despite the back-peddling they did on it.  A lot of people still don't like him because of that scene.  That's where the beginning of Jaime's current problems on the show began.

Edited June 10, 2015 by benteen

[FemmyV]

 

Sansa is a hero because she's not supposed to be one.

 

Sansa is not at all a hero at this point, she is a survivor. The only person she's helped is Dante, and look how that ended. When the time comes that she finally pulls her head out of her ass long enough to investigate the deeper end of the pool, that may change.

[Advance35]

I would argue that Sansa is the most realistically written character on the show. While most of the characters are heroes because the writing dictates it, Sansa is a hero because she's not supposed to be one.

 

I actually like what Sansa has done this season.  She chose to marry Ramsay (I do consider it a choice since we saw her debate whether to go through with it twice) and she thought she'd be able to wait out the War For Winterfell and see which side she would have to build a new Northern Dynasty with.   She was hoping for Stannis but if he lost, she was willing to try and work with House Bolton (with the hope that she would one day be in a position to destroy them). 

 

She of course didn't realize what Ramsay was but better players than her have been surprised by their enemies (Olenna, Margaery, Cersei).   Now she knows what Ramsay is and she wants him to lose and his hoping she'll be able to negotiate with Stannis.  I don't know, it all worked for me.  Winterfell was my favorite storyline this year.

[Cheshrkat]

After this season you cannot have Sansa go back to Littlefinger and act like everything is fine.  Unless she is the one who is deliberately manipulating him.

 

I'm almost afraid at this point to be optimistic on this, because I tried to remain so and hope that Sansa wouldn't actually be raped as per the Jeyne storyline (wrong) and then again that Stannis wouldn't actually knowingly allow his daughter to burn (wrong again).  So my hoping that part of the agency that D&D feel they have given Sansa this season and part of the consequences of her ordeal is that she is a whole lot smarter about Littlefinger than she has been in the past - Sophie Turner's interviews re: Littlefinger have bothered me tremendously in retrospect, because I seem to remember that she talked a lot prior to and during this season about how Sansa was using LF as much as he was using her, but also that Sansa and LF had a connection, that he truly "got her" and she him.  I saw absolutely none of that equality transpire on screen over the last 9 episodes - quite the opposite.

 

If and when Sansa sees LF again, if she doesn't greet him with icy cold disdain and force him to beg for her forgiveness for leaving her in the hands of Ramsay, I am going to be sorely disappointed.  And even then, I only want her to think she's forgiven him so that we can start seeing signs that she is the one in control manipulating him for her own ends.  If she simply goes back to being his student, then her whole arc this season and all she suffered was for nothing, in my opinion.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Cheshrkat

[Oscirus]

- letting Baelish manipulate her yet again, cutting her eyes at Ramsay behind his back at the meal, the general high-handed way she was with Reek and Myranda before the rape...if anything I feel like the show was trying to say she was immature and impulsive.

 

I don't think she really had a choice with Littlefinger. She could've told him to turn back  but by that point, I doubt he would've listened.  I'd see her interactions with Reek and Myranda more as somebody who's sick of being bullied. But in general, she's still 14 so she has to somewhat act her age.

 

And what's happened since the rape - calling Ramsay a bastard, assuming all she needed to do to get through to someone who had been tortured and mutilated was to try to guilt him - hasn't been much better.

 

Since the rape she's had access to two people. Her only options are to turn Ramsey against his family or to snap Reek out of his funk long enough to get him to help her. She's working with what she's got.

 

I understand the issues with her constantly in peril. But with a character like Sansa, if she's not in peril then she's not really interesting from a storytelling perspective. Which is why they gave her the Jeyne poole storyline as opposed to the Vale one from the books.

 

Sansa is not at all a hero at this point, she is a survivor.

 

She might not yet be at the point of being a hero, yet, but she's definitely going on a hero's journey. Saving Dante and her actions at Blackwater show glimpses of what she's capable of under the right circumstances.

[GreyBunny]

We can't blame GRRM for the burning of Shireen by Stannis. At least not until we read  a scene like that in the books. I'm sure these two would say GRRM told them Ramsey brutalizes his wife if that book hadn't come out, but they made it Sansa instead of Jeyne. They clearly either don't get characterization or don't care, and context matters. GRRM is not perfect, but blaming him was like TBWB blaming The Hound for Gregor's crimes.

 

It seemed to me GRRM told D&D that Stannis has Shireen burned. 

If Mel and Selyse go behind Stannis's back, that wouldn't make sense as he's the king and he'd have them killed, even Mel (or if he can't kill her he'd banish her).  Mel killing Shireen and Stannis getting rid of Mel isn't much of a story.  It's a dead end that does nothing and goes nowhere. 

Stannis having Shireen burned makes more sense to me.  His story has always been one of how far does he go to do what he feels is his duty; what is more important to him: duty or family.  He burned Selyse's brother, he murdered his own brother, he tried to kill one of his nephews, and he nearly killed Davos.  Now he's faced with a terrible decision and makes a terrible choice and there will be fallout from it.

 

[blixie]

 

expect there will be some sort of plan revealed (whether in the finale or next season), but that won't fix most of the problems with the plot until now.

 

I don't disagree really, and I mostly don't give a shit about plot, but even as one of the few who enjoyed AffC the first time I read it, when George finally revealed Doran's grand plan at the end of AffC, it DID save the entire Dorne storyline for me, and made me much more interested in the Martells going forward into ADwD.

 

My problem with ADwD (one of many obviously) was that instead of staying with this bad ass LONG GAME motherfucker in Doran,  we instead spend a bunch of time with Quentyn and the end result of that is literally a dead and fiery end. It repeats the same notes of Oberyn's story in ASoS: heh look at THIS BAMF, oops sorry not so much, while being carried by a character who is the antithesis of Oberyn Martell a pathetic bland if good hearted loser. It also hits the same beats as Arianne's failed coup to crown Myrcella.

 

I mean Doran is still one of my faves for being one of the few, hell ONLY, noble players who has multiple strategies in play at once, (Quentyn in Mereen, Nymeria scouting the Lannisters, Tyene scouting the Sparrows, Sarella scouting Old Town/Maesters, Arianne scouting fAegon). He gets that information and patience are more valuable than arrogance and a spear.

[Umbelina]

Jamie is one of the few people in the books that I actually like.  A part of me is frustrated that his character is being dirtied up (and it seemed to be to make Cersei more sympathetic) but the other part of me simply thinks, "So, Jamie will not be a factor at the end, or probably even make it to the end." 

 

I'm not fond of GRRM for many many reasons, but at times his writing is beautiful, and I felt that he deftly and touchingly explained how the relationship between Cersei and Jamie came to be, and exactly how strong those bonds were.  It stopped being sickening and became tragic, and I actually understood their love, their pain, their fights, and their hopelessness.  The show writers got absolutely none of that on screen, and then went the extra step and made it all about sex/power with that idiotic rape scene.  How much more powerful would it have been if they showed the scene AS WRITTEN?  I finally understood their (especially Cersei's) loneliness as children, and need to remain physically close, as they were in the womb after that scene, and they could have done it during that scene, with careful flashbacks.  I guess it was too complicated, and rape was easier, and Jamie really doesn't matter in the end.

 

Frankly, looking for clues about how this seemingly endless story turns out is my favorite part of the show.  The meltdown on twitter about D&D's "spoiling" Shireen makes absolutely no sense to me, and frankly, seems pretty nuts for GRRM's continuity people!

 

I can't wait until they move beyond the books!  Maybe it's just me, but damn, I want an answer to this saga, and I don't want it 10 or 30 years from now.

 

As far as Jon's stabbing, I'm hoping for "not a cliff hanger" there, for the same reasons.  I'm at the "get the fuck on with it" stage.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Umbelina

[Danny Franks]

It seemed to me GRRM told D&D that Stannis has Shireen burned. 

 

 

How would that work in the books? An express raven to the Wall, telling Mel to get the fires lit and chuck the kid on before he goes into battle? Then of course having to wait for the confirmation from the answering raven before he risks fighting Ramsay? Seems about as likely as Littlefinger's teleportation ability, so sure, why not?

 

I really struggle to believe any of the ass-covering nonsense that comes out of the Game of Thrones camp, these days. No one wants to take responsibility for anything that has been criticised, and all they seem to do is try to insinuate that the viewers who aren't happy just don't Get It. It's not like there isn't plenty from the books that they could easily have improved on, instead of just making it all worse, and then throwing in some very troubling additions of their own.

[BlackberryJam]

Weiss clearly says in the Inside bit that when GRRM told them that Shireen gets sacrificed, they thought it was horrible. Of course they aren't going to give you the full details of how it happens in the books. They are always very kind to George on that front and have never once said "Yeah, well, this part of the story sucks, so we cut it."

 

My thought is that the seige of Winterfell is going poorly, Stannis sends for Shireen and flambes her once she arrives. It's the show that has woobified Stannis for dramatic purposes. I have no problem believing dickwad asshole book Stannis would burn his daughter.

 

They say nothing about the viewers "just not getting it." Weiss gets a little philosophical in an EW interview about Shireen, but, yeah, says absolutely nothing like that.

[benteen]

I'm almost afraid at this point to be optimistic on this, because I tried to remain so and hope that Sansa wouldn't actually be raped as per the Jeyne storyline (wrong) and then again that Stannis wouldn't actually knowingly allow his daughter to burn (wrong again).  So my hoping that part of the agency that D&D feel they have given Sansa this season and part of the consequences of her ordeal is that she is a whole lot smarter about Littlefinger than she has been in the past - Sophie Turner's interviews re: Littlefinger have bothered me tremendously in retrospect, because I seem to remember that she talked a lot prior to and during this season about how Sansa was using LF as much as he was using her, but also that Sansa and LF had a connection, that he truly "got her" and she him.  I saw absolutely none of that equality transpire on screen over the last 9 episodes - quite the opposite.

 

If and when Sansa sees LF again, if she doesn't greet him with icy cold disdain and force him to beg for her forgiveness for leaving her in the hands of Ramsay, I am going to be sorely disappointed.  And even then, I only want her to think she's forgiven him so that we can start seeing signs that she is the one in control manipulating him for her own ends.  If she simply goes back to being his student, then her whole arc this season and all she suffered was for nothing, in my opinion.

 

I'll be okay if Sansa doesn't demand any of these things from Littlefinger so long as we know she has decided to manipulate him and play the long game in doing so.  But the writers have given LF an out by saying he didn't know about Ramsay.  So knowing the writing on this show when it comes to Sansa especially, I wouldn't be surprised to see things return to the status quo between the two of them.

 

Danny, I love the use of ass-covering nonsense.  It seems like the writers on this show engage in a LOT of that nowadays.

[Winged Nike]

 

How would that work in the books? An express raven to the Wall, telling Mel to get the fires lit and chuck the kid on before he goes into battle? Then of course having to wait for the confirmation from the answering raven before he risks fighting Ramsay? Seems about as likely as Littlefinger's teleportation ability, so sure, why not?

 

Given what's happened to Jon in the books, maybe the Wall isn't safe for Mel, Selyse and Shireen anymore after the mutiny. I think Selyse still has some soldiers with her and maybe they are forced to flee the wall with her soldiers as protection and then they come across Stannis and his army?

 

I think that we'll be left with a cliffhanger with regards to Jon's fate in next week's episode, so I don't know that anything will happen on screen that may hint at the overall condition of the wall next season/next book, but I think the Wall will be abandoned/overrun at some point and the characters there will have to run.

[GreyBunny]

How would that work in the books? An express raven to the Wall, telling Mel to get the fires lit and chuck the kid on before he goes into battle? Then of course having to wait for the confirmation from the answering raven before he risks fighting Ramsay? Seems about as likely as Littlefinger's teleportation ability, so sure, why not?

It may not happen outside Winterfell, it could happen much later in the story under different circumstances. 

For example, Stannis takes Winterfell and wins the North back for the Starks.  Things are looking good for Stannis to get the Throne.  Then along comes Dany but Stannis doesn't recognize her as a legitimate claimant since her family got deposed.  Dany has dragons.  Stannis has nothing except a mediocre red priestess.  He burns Shireen as a desperate attempt to win against Dany.

Or...

 

Stannis has won the North.  Yay.  But the Others and their army of the dead have arrived and threaten to wipe out everyone.  Dany and her dragons are nowhere to be seen and a massacre far worse than the one seen at Hardhome ensues.  Stannis burns Shireen as a desperate attempt to win against the Others.

 

Or...

 

Any number of other scenarios could happen. 

Edited June 10, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Pete Martell]

I don't think she really had a choice with Littlefinger. She could've told him to turn back  but by that point, I doubt he would've listened.  I'd see her interactions with Reek and Myranda more as somebody who's sick of being bullied. But in general, she's still 14 so she has to somewhat act her age.

 

Since the rape she's had access to two people. Her only options are to turn Ramsey against his family or to snap Reek out of his funk long enough to get him to help her. She's working with what she's got.

 

If I felt the story was presented this way, I'd agree with you, but I feel like they've tried to have it both ways with Sansa - they wanted to present her as a sexy, mature woman so Baelish could ogle her at the end of last season, yet she's still a manipulated or quiet child when the script needs her to be such. And it was difficult for me to see her interaction with Ramsay or Reek as her just using what she could, because I felt like the intention of the scenes was to show that even the act of lashing out at Ramsay or threatening Reek was supposed to be strong. To me they can't say she's so intelligent and learning to play the game when they present her as reactionary and completely unable to have a path or voice of her own.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Danny Franks]

It may not happen outside Winterfell, it could happen much later in the story under different circumstances. 

For example, Stannis takes Winterfell and wins the North back for the Starks.  Things are looking good for Stannis to get the Throne.  Then along comes Dany but Stannis doesn't recognize her as a legitimate claimant since her family got deposed.  Dany has dragons.  Stannis has nothing except a mediocre red priestess.  He burns Shireen as a desperate attempt to win against Dany.

Or...

 

Stannis has won the North.  Yay.  But the Others and their army of the dead have arrived and threaten to wipe out everyone.  Dany and her dragons are nowhere to be seen and a massacre far worse than the one seen at Hardhome ensues.  Stannis burns Shireen as a desperate attempt to win against the Others.

 

Or...

 

Any number of other scenarios could happen. 

 

True. It could. If there were half a dozen books left in the series to enable that sort of extended character arc for Stannis. But if GRRM isn't at the stage now where he has to begin dispensing with false heroes and nailing down the actual climax of his story, then he never will be.

[Winnief]

It may not happen outside Winterfell, it could happen much later in the story under different circumstances.

 

That was my thought too.  Remember D&D have been massively speeding up a lot of inevitable developments, (Tyrion meeting Dany, the death of Selmy, the death of Hizdar, Bran reaches Bloodraven much sooner so he can begin training off screen, having a huge blowout battle where we see the true strength of the White Walkers, etc.,) so it could well be that they just decided it was time to get Stannis burning Shireen out of the way as well, perhaps so they could resolve/end Stannis's storyline sooner what with everything else that's coming up. 

 

D&D went massively off script with Sansa with ahem questionable results, but the fact that Martin *isn't* publicly critiquing this one the way he did Sansa's rape suggests to me that yeah, even if the circumstances are different, not only will Shireen burn in the books as well but it will be at Stannis's command.  If not GRRM would be making a lot of pointed comments about how he and the showrunners see Stannis differently and how they're so much grimmer than even him-the fact that he isn't tells you something. 

 

And sadly, Danny, I don't think Martin *is* quite ready to start nailing things down in his narrative.  If he were he wouldn't include the waste of time that is fAegon, or Qwentyn, or the Maester conspiracy, and instead have let Tyrion and Dany *finally* meet in person already instead of sending her on another spirit quest out in the wilderness. 

 

I really REALLY hope D&D don't make a cliffhanger out of Jon's death for the next ten months.  That would just be silly since word would be bound to leak that Kit was coming back for Season 6.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Winnief

[Danny Franks]

And sadly, Danny, I don't think Martin *is* quite ready to start nailing things down in his narrative.  If he were he wouldn't include the waste of time that is fAegon, or Qwentyn, or the Maester conspiracy, and instead have let Tyrion and Dany *finally* meet in person already instead of sending her on another spirit quest out in the wilderness. 

 

Yeah, well that's a whole other source of frustration for me regarding this franchise. I don't think it's ever going to be finished, to any satisfactory degree, especially not after the needless diversions of the last book (An Idiots Guide to Essos, with contributions from too many characters) GRRM either won't do it at all, or he'll rush it and create a huge anti-climax. And I don't believe the writers of the show have the ability to craft an ending that is fit for purpose. 

 

Fortunately, there is a whole new generation of novelists who seem to have their shit together in ways GRRM could only dream of.

[AshleyN]

I think that we'll be left with a cliffhanger with regards to Jon's fate in next week's episode, so I don't know that anything will happen on screen that may hint at the overall condition of the wall next season/next book, but I think the Wall will be abandoned/overrun at some point and the characters there will have to run.

I kind of agree with this. My issue with the prediction that we'll get to see Jon's resurrection this season is that I've always felt that at least part of the reason for him to be taken out of picture is that it'll lead to chaos at the Wall, leaving them even more vulnerable and unprepared for the Others. I don't know if I see it being abandoned entirely, but Martin went out of his way in ADWD to show that Jon was the only thing keeping the peace between the three factions at the Wall, so I've always assumed that the assassination will lead to all hell breaking loose. That doesn't really happen if he gets brought back right away, so my thought was that he'll be out of commission for at least a short while* (and most likely warged into Ghost, so that his mind doesn't devolve the way that Catelyn's did).

 

*Of course, the problem with that idea is figuring out why they wouldn't have burnt his corpse right away, so maybe you're all right after all.

 

True. It could. If there were half a dozen books left in the series to enable that sort of extended character arc for Stannis.

That kind of is his character arc, isn't it? I mean, before we even met him Stannis was described as a man totally rigid in his thinking who'll "break before he bends", but it seems to me that as the series has gone along he's been bending and compromising more and more. It wouldn't shock me if the end result there is meant to be him making the ultimate compromise.

[Mya Stone]

I'm still super confused as to why people think it will be such a cliffhanger. Kit Harington is signed on through 7 seasons. There was no hiding his contract renegotiations.

Either they cut when knifes are coming at him, or he is resurrected. I'll eat my hand if it's not one of these two options.

Okay, I won't really eat my hand. But I'll be a nicer mod.

Okay, I won't be that either.

I'll be wrong. But I'll admit it. Through Lena Headey clenched teeth.

[WearyTraveler]

I'm still super confused as to why people think it will be such a cliffhanger. Kit Harington is signed on through 7 seasons. There was no hiding his contract renegotiations.

 

The length of a contract doesn't mean what we usually think it means.  It doesn't guarantee that the actor will have work in the series for seven years, it just guarantees that the series can make use of the actor for those seven years.  For example Lost signed its season 1 regulars to multi-year contracts, but some of the characters they played died before the contracts were up, and so, the actors were then released from said contracts.

 

The way it works, in general (because agents can negotiate these points based on an actor's demand) is that if you're a regular on a show you get paid a certain amount per episode, even if you have no lines, or don't appear in the episode at all.  This guarantees the showrunners creative freedom because they know your character is and will be available to them as long as the contract stands.  And it guarantees the actor a paycheck, so he/she doesn't go out looking for other projects.  But, all these contracts have a clause that basically says that if the creators think the best thing for the plot is to kill your character off, then they can do it, even if you have a few months or years left in the contract.  They are not obligated to pay you after that.  Usually, showrunners tell actors these things as soon as they are sure they will kill the character, as a courtesy, so the actor can go and find other work before his/her character's demise.

 

In short, the length of Kit's contract is not an indicator of how long Jon Snow will be an active character in the show.  But, the fact that there will be set reports, pictures and all the other information we get while the show is shooting is an indicator, and if they leave Jon's fate a cliffhanger, we won't have to wait too long to find out.

[Mya Stone]

Thanks for the info, WT!

I still stand by my two choices. ;)

[AshleyN]

IIRC they made a point of saying when announcing the new contracts that just because everyone was signed that long it didn't mean they were going to be around that long.

 

As for things like set reports and pictures, I really think the impact of that is overestimated. The vast majority of fans don't follow those sort of things, and the ones who do are looking to be spoiled anyway. I could be wrong about this, but I'm guessing that most people looking at these things are either book readers, or have been spoiled as to what happens in the books.

 

That being said, there are no reports or evidence of all to what happens with Jon in the books, and his fate was left in a cliff hanger, yet every book reader I know takes it for granted that he's coming back. Maybe it'll play out the same way with show-only people. Although the show hasn't had nearly as much to foreshadow a resurrection as the books*, so maybe not.

 

*To be fair though, we don't actually know that he's being resurrected in the books. It's possible (though unlikely) that he's only mostly dead.

[The Mormegil]

 

 

That being said, there are no reports or evidence of all to what happens with Jon in the books, and his fate was left in a cliff hanger, yet every book reader I know takes it for granted that he's coming back. 

GRRM did say when asked about Jon ‘Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?’

[Mya Stone]

GRRM did say when asked about Jon ‘Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?’

Cheeky bastard, isn't he?

[Danny Franks]

As for things like set reports and pictures, I really think the impact of that is overestimated. The vast majority of fans don't follow those sort of things, and the ones who do are looking to be spoiled anyway. I could be wrong about this, but I'm guessing that most people looking at these things are either book readers, or have been spoiled as to what happens in the books.

 

While it's true that many people don't follow online reports, I think that Game of Thrones has reached a stage where it is pretty much mainstream media. If Jon being 'dead' is a cliffhanger, then I'd expect the tabloid newspapers in the UK to splash any photos of him on set all over their websites and the entertainment pages of their papers.

 

But I don't think it really matters that much anyway. Because knowing he's alive and knowing the circumstances of it are two different things. It still works as a cliffhanger, even if not as drastic a one as there could be.

[GreyBunny]

^ I agree.  The cliffhanger isn't the what but the how.

Either Jon survives the stabbing or he dies and is resurrected either in body and spirit or less likely just spirit (lives on in Ghost or a dragon), but he'll be around in some form.  He won't be dead-dead, that would be horrible writing, especially with the Big Reveal about his parentage yet to happen. 

 

[Jon dies.  Wargs into nothing.  Body burned.  Dude is gone.]

Howland Reed shows up:  "Uh, he was Rhaegar and Lyanna's son."

Everyone:  "D'oh!"

Stoneheart: *gurgle*

 

Edited June 10, 2015 by GreyBunny

[benteen]

Yeah, well that's a whole other source of frustration for me regarding this franchise. I don't think it's ever going to be finished, to any satisfactory degree, especially not after the needless diversions of the last book (An Idiots Guide to Essos, with contributions from too many characters) GRRM either won't do it at all, or he'll rush it and create a huge anti-climax. And I don't believe the writers of the show have the ability to craft an ending that is fit for purpose. 

 

Fortunately, there is a whole new generation of novelists who seem to have their shit together in ways GRRM could only dream of.

 

I totally expect The Winds of Winter to be released.  After that, I have no faith in any other books being released.  I read a quote from GRRM a while back that basically said that when he knows where a story is going, he gets bored.  That explained a lot about his current style of running and how he basically jumps down any new rabbit hole he's able to find.  While I applaud a writer who does his best to keep his story from being predictable, sometimes the story that you're writing has to play out the way it's been told.  Otherwise, you get chaos.

 

I really wonder how much GRRM likes writing the books anymore.  He like the world building and short story aspect of it and LOVES being a celebrity author.  But I get the impression that ASOIAF has become a chore for him to write.

Edited June 11, 2015 by benteen

[SeanC]

I don't think she really had a choice with Littlefinger. She could've told him to turn back  but by that point, I doubt he would've listened.

I would agree with you if you look at what transpired rationally, but everyone associated with the show has claimed she did have a choice, and Aidan Gillen actually said he thought that if Sansa had said no Baelish would have let that stand.

[ulkis]

If they can avoid the Ramsay rape stuff completely, then I'd love to see Sansa in the North because it would amplify the chances of her and Jon having some scenes together. Which I've wanted in the books ever since Sansa thought about "how sweet it would be to see him again" in AFFC.

 

Yeah, me too.

 

For anyone interested in fic, I read a good one that had a well-written reunion between Jon, Arya, and Sansa (and a whole bunch of the other characters in there as well) :

 

http://archiveofourown.org/works/336407

Edited June 11, 2015 by ulkis

[Brn2bwild]

I have no problem believing dickwad asshole book Stannis would burn his daughter.

 

Which would make him more like Robert than he ever thought, given that Robert permitted Raegar's children to be brutally killed for his own purposes.

[Hecate7]

I would agree with you if you look at what transpired rationally, but everyone associated with the show has claimed she did have a choice, and Aidan Gillen actually said he thought that if Sansa had said no Baelish would have let that stand.

 

He manipulated her into saying yes. If she'd been able to resist his manipulations, there wasn't a lot he could have done. but she isn't on that level yet.

[WearyTraveler]

He manipulated her into saying yes. If she'd been able to resist his manipulations, there wasn't a lot he could have done. but she isn't on that level yet.

 

I too believe that LF made it so she would be more agreeable to his suggestion.  Bringing her all the way to Mt. Cailin was manipulative.  Sansa being so close to her home was bound to play with her emotions, add to that his speech about revenge and yes, he had more chances of Sansa accepting his proposal.  I was sad that Sansa had to go through the whole ordeal with Ramsey, and would have preferred if they gave her some of Manderly's role in sabotaging the Boltons from within, but I wasn't outraged or angry about the change.  It's just a deviation from the books.  Sad and painful, but well, such is life in Westeros.

 

I'm hoping that Sansa can pull through.  And she's not even one of my favorite characters.  To be honest I always thought book Sansa was an idiot with her naive fantasies about knights and princes and, for me, she didn't learn fast enough in the books.  I remember always thinking "when are you going to open your eyes, you idiot?" a lot while reading her chapters.  I think TV Sansa has fared better with me.

 

Edited because ypou is not a word! :D

Edited June 11, 2015 by WearyTraveler