Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[SeanC]

Dawn doesn't seem like it's going to appear on the show though and it isn't VS anyway. (Have we even had a mention of House Dayne on the show?) The Tarlys definitely have a VS blade but I can't remember what it's called. Since we're meeting the family next season I think we could get a mention of it. Sam might even end up with it if the Tarly family ends up being attacked by the Greyjoys. 

Arthur Dayne was mentioned briefly in episode 401, but otherwise no.

 

The Tarly family sword is Heartsbane.

[nksarmi]

I really don't see how Sansa somehow taking over Winterfell would be remotely credible at this point.  There's been nothing whatsoever to suggest it, and the writers have effectively written out things like the Northern lords at Winterfell, which is now garrisoned solely by Bolton loyalists.  The extent of Stark support has been shown to be two old people, one of whom is dead and the other not even resident in the castle.

 

I disagree. It's not a matter of her taking over by force, but I do think events could take place at the end of this season and at the start of the next one that could result in her rising to rule.  Of course, part of this is based on my blind hope that a) Ramsey little 20-men effort fails horribly and b) Stannis defeats Roose OR he makes enough of a dent that Roose calls the banner men so that we have a chance to add in characters who might prove more loyal to Sansa than Roose.  I do realize Sansa salvation could be Littlefinger, but I would hate that so much.

Edited June 1, 2015 by nksarmi

[Avaleigh]

After I posted my Valyrian Steel post in the Speculation thread- I've decided I want Brienne to present Oathkeeper to Sansa and Sansa either delivers it to Jon Snow herself or has Brienne do it as her champion.

 

Do it, show. DO IT.  

Longclaw belongs to the Mormonts anyway so that would be perfect to me. 

 

I want Jaime to use Widow's Wail. Tommen is useless.

 

Stannis is the sort of character that I would think would obsess Tywin style over not having a Valyrian blade. 

 

I wonder why Dany has never been interested in fighting. I don't recall her ever thinking about wanting to learn. 

[nksarmi]

I wonder why Dany has never been interested in fighting. I don't recall her ever thinking about wanting to learn. 

Which is why I wonder if she even CAN be AA.  But I'm starting to think it might take a combination of people to fulfill that prophesy.

[Winnief]

After I posted my Valyrian Steel post in the Speculation thread- I've decided I want Brienne to present Oathkeeper to Sansa and Sansa either delivers it to Jon Snow herself or has Brienne do it as her champion.

 

Do it, show. DO IT.

 

That's what I've been hoping for all along...that Oathkeeper was Lightbringer to help reconcile us all to the loss of Ice. 

 

And I do think Sansa will be the de facto Lady of Winterfell come Season 6-and that LF will get a nasty surprise if he comes up North.

[benteen]

It would be hilarious if Sam got his hands on Heartsbane but no way Randyll Tarly is given that up.  Not just the late Tywin Lannister but I'd love to see people like Littlefinger, Olenna and Tarly's reactions to the White Walkers.  Maybe Randyll would have a little more respect for his son then.

 

If they follow the books, it looks like Tyrion will be taking over as Hand of the Queen.  He's better suited for it than Selmy.  However, Selmy had the advantage for befriending and gaining the respect of people like Strong Belwas, Grey Worm and Missandi.  He's got the charisma but it would be interesting to see him trying to gather support from scratch.  Him and Daario might be fun too. 

 

I'd love to see Cersei react to Tyrion serving Dany.  It would make any potential Cersei vs Dany faceoff even more fun.  Come on, book and show, at least have Dany be able to square off against ONE Lannister.  Even if it's Jaime who ultimately puts Cersei out of her misery.

Edited June 1, 2015 by benteen

[magdalene]

So are we thinking the Jon Julius Caesar thing is happening? And are they going to leave it as a cliffhanger for next year?

 

And has anybody seen any actual spoilers that Ramsay is biting the big one this season? Please let it be so...

Edited June 1, 2015 by magdalene

[The Mormegil]

Jorah lists a few of the Valyrian steel swords in this video.

 

He also mentions about the Maesters having VS links on their chains, could be converted to arrowheads or knives.

So are we thinking the Jon Julius Caesar thing is happening? And are they going to leave it as a cliffhanger for next year?

 

One theory I've seen which could well happen IMO is that both Stannis and Jon are killed (I'd have said Stannis killed by Brienne up until this week but Ramsay seems the more likely now). Mel attempts to resurrect Stannis (calling him AA or the PtwP) but it doesn't work, however up at the Wall Jon comes back from the dead.

[magdalene]

Jorah lists a few of the Valyrian steel swords in this video.

 

He also mentions about the Maesters having VS links on their chains, could be converted to arrowheads or knives.

 

One theory I've seen which could well happen IMO is that both Stannis and Jon are killed (I'd have said Stannis killed by Brienne up until this week but Ramsay seems the more likely now). Mel attempts to resurrect Stannis (calling him AA or the PtwP) but it doesn't work, however up at the Wall Jon comes back from the dead.

Wow, that is a really good theory. Makes a good amount of narrative sense. 

[SeanC]

And has anybody seen any actual spoilers that Ramsay is biting the big one this season? Please let it be so...

There's been nothing indicating that, and seeing as I think the Pink Letter is probably in, it's unlikely.

 

If any Bolton is going to die this year (and that's a big if), it will be Roose.

[benteen]

I wish the boombox existed in Game of Thrones.  I'd pay good money to see Jorah enter the pit, yell out "Khalesi!!!" and raise a boombox with the song "In Your Eyes"  blaring.

[InsertWordHere]

In the books, even with support from someone in power, I doubt Jon could get his hands on that much Valyrian steel.

 

Brienne has Oathkeeper and is really close to the Wall in the show. Plus, it's Ice's baby so it's already awesome and known in the show. However, if the Wall is breached or falls, it might be better if Brienne stays where she's at for right now. Even if Tommen is killed or deposed, I don't see the Wall getting Widow's Wail. Most likely whoever kills or deposes Tommen would keep it as a spoil of war, just like Tywin kept its Daddy. It's also possible that Tobho Mott's reforging caused the two swords to lose whatever characteristic caused them to be harmful to Others. 

 

Heartsbane is the next likely possibility, with Sam on the show possibly going south soon. I don't see Randall Tarly believing in grumpkins and ice spiders though. 

 

House Lannister's Brightflame and House Targaryen's Blackfyre and Dark Sister are missing. If any of those are near the Wall or likely to make a show appearance, I would place money on Dark Sister. It has been mentioned once on the show and its last known possessor was Lord Commander Bloodraven, a show character. Perhaps he has it in his tree, although with everyone save Bran, Hodor, and Meera north of the Wall likely dead in the show, I don't know how anyone would get to it. Maybe he left it hidden in one of the castles at the Wall. There is a theory that Illyrio has Blackfyre and is going to give it/has given it to his Blackfyre pretender, but Aegon's not in the show.

 

House Drumm of the Iron Islands has Red Rain, but I think it is unlikely to appear in the show and the Assholes from Dickhead Island are unlikely to help in any case. House Harlaw also has a VS sword called Nightfall and Rodrik at least seems less dickish than the rest of the Ironmen, but is unlikely to appear in the show. 

Maybe they will give the Greyjoys in the show one of these swords.

 

Lyn Corbray is also a jerk and in possession of Lady Forlorn. I can't remember if he was a named character at Tyrion's trial at the Moon Door, but regardless, the Vale thread seems to have been dropped from the show. 

 

Other named but missing VS swords are House Royce's Lamentation, House Hightower's Vigilance, House Roxton's Orphan-Maker, and Truth, last seen in the possession of some dude from Lys. These seem unimportant even in the books, and thus highly unlikely to appear in the show.

 

I wonder what happened to Maester Luwin's Valyrian steel link. I think it was even mentioned as being VS in the show. 

[Avaleigh]

One theory I've seen which could well happen IMO is that both Stannis and Jon are killed (I'd have said Stannis killed by Brienne up until this week but Ramsay seems the more likely now). Mel attempts to resurrect Stannis (calling him AA or the PtwP) but it doesn't work, however up at the Wall Jon comes back from the dead.

If Melisandre ends up performing some sort of resurrection ritual this season I wonder if it'll be similar to what happened when Dany had MMD burned. In addition to the eggs, Dany had king's blood, the blood of an enemy, and a sacrifice. We know Mel likes to sacrifice anyway so I think one might be involved in her attempt to resurrect Stannis. 

 

What if Ramsay ends up being the blood of the enemy in this case and ends up being burned to death? If ever there was a character who had a vicious death coming it's him and something like this would certainly fit the bill. 

 

If any Bolton is going to die this year (and that's a big if), it will be Roose.

I don't know, Ramsay is the one who wants to abandon the relative safety of Winterfell and its walls to do a surprise attack on a pretty determined Stannis and Stannis will have the numbers in this case. I agree that Stannis is going to die but I think he'll take out at least one of the Boltons before he goes. I'm undecided on which one but lean towards Ramsay because Ramsay just has it coming so bad I think more people are rooting for his death than Roose's.

 

I can see the show giving Euron Red Rain.  

[Pete Martell]

I disagree. It's not a matter of her taking over by force, but I do think events could take place at the end of this season and at the start of the next one that could result in her rising to rule.  Of course, part of this is based on my blind hope that a) Ramsey little 20-men effort fails horribly and b) Stannis defeats Roose OR he makes enough of a dent that Roose calls the banner men so that we have a chance to add in characters who might prove more loyal to Sansa than Roose.  I do realize Sansa salvation could be Littlefinger, but I would hate that so much.

 

That would explain why D&D had Cogman go out and say Littlefinger had no idea Sansa would be in any danger with the Boltons. 

 

If this supposed empowerment story has any worth then it will only work for me if she no longer needs Littlefinger, who, to me, has just shown again and again this season that he has little to offer beyond a few "witty" lines.

 

I have this awful feeling that one of the reasons the show had Ramsay rape her is so that if or when she and Littlefinger enter a sexual relationship, he won't be the one who took away her virginity. 

 

Ugh.

[Oscirus]

After I posted my Valyrian Steel post in the Speculation thread- I've decided I want Brienne to present Oathkeeper to Sansa and Sansa either delivers it to Jon Snow herself or has Brienne do it as her champion.

 

Do it, show. DO IT.

 

For what? Jon already has a valyrian sword and Brienne's one of the best fighters in westeros.  If anything, oathkeeper's right where it needs to be.

 

One theory I've seen which could well happen IMO is that both Stannis and Jon are killed (I'd have said Stannis killed by Brienne up until this week but Ramsay seems the more likely now). Mel attempts to resurrect Stannis (calling him AA or the PtwP) but it doesn't work, however up at the Wall Jon comes back from the dead.

 

 

My problem with this theory is that storywise, it seems like a big waste to spend five seasons building up Stannis's claim to the throne just to have him killed by the Boltons. He feels more important to the main storyline then that.

 

And has anybody seen any actual spoilers that Ramsay is biting the big one this season? Please let it be so...

 

Considering that he has two open storylines ( Walda's baby, Sansa's escape) and only two episodes left, it seems very doubtful that he dies this season.

 

I have this awful feeling that one of the reasons the show had Ramsay rape her is so that if or when she and Littlefinger enter a sexual relationship, he won't be the one who took away her virginity.

 

I don't see Littlefinger ever getting what he wants from Sansa.  That ship sailed the moment he left her in Winterfell to fend for herself.

[Winnief]

What if Ramsay ends up being the blood of the enemy in this case and ends up being burned to death? If ever there was a character who had a vicious death coming it's him and something like this would certainly fit the bill.

 

I'm really, really hoping that is what happens. That Stannis will send Shireen away, and so Mel will be 'forced' to use Ramsay's enemy blood as a potential substitute. 

 

If any Bolton is going to die this year (and that's a big if), it will be Roose.

I don't know, Ramsay is the one who wants to abandon the relative safety of Winterfell and its walls to do a surprise attack on a pretty determined Stannis and Stannis will have the numbers in this case. I agree that Stannis is going to die but I think he'll take out at least one of the Boltons before he goes. I'm undecided on which one but lean towards Ramsay because Ramsay just has it coming so bad I think more people are rooting for his death than Roose's.

 

Agreed.  Ramsay's arc is coming to an end anyway-he's served his purpose while Roose frankly has more going for him as a Magnificent Bastard. 

 

 

 

If this supposed empowerment story has any worth then it will only work for me if she no longer needs Littlefinger, who, to me, has just shown again and again this season that he has little to offer beyond a few "witty" lines.

 

Precisely.  And remember the girl with purple snakes in her hair will slay the Titan in the Castle of Ice according to the vision and oh how satisfying that would be...I think those knights of the Vale are going to join with her over him.  In the books "Alayne" is establishing ties in the Vale, while in the show they wanted to get Sansa up North, (maybe re-invigorate her contacts up there and re-unite her with Jon,) as soon as possible and I have several theories, as to why that was so.

 

Personally, I'd LOVE to see what Littlefinger made of things like the White Walkers or for that matter even the Giants.  Here's something you can't get around just by being a weasel!

[SeanC]

I'm really, really hoping that is what happens. That Stannis will send Shireen away, and so Mel will be 'forced' to use Ramsay's enemy blood as a potential substitute. 

 

Agreed.  Ramsay's arc is coming to an end anyway-he's served his purpose while Roose frankly has more going for him as a Magnificent Bastard. 

There's no chance that Ramsay dies on this mission.  That would completely remove any tension from Sansa and Theon's story.  He will make it back to the castle for that reason.

 

Ever since the Bolton characters entered the same plot two seasons ago, Ramsay has been clearly identified as the more prominent character.  There's been only one Roose scene in the last two seasons where Ramsay was not present (with Littlefinger in episode 503), whereas there are numerous Ramsay scenes without Roose.  Ramsay is the only villain that the heroic characters have any established dynamics with.  And he's needed to write the Pink Letter, which I think is most likely in.  If Roose dies, it will be because Sansa prods Ramsay into doing it (though given the amount of time left, I'm not convinced that the whole idea of her using Ramsay's insecurity about his inheritance against him is actually going to come to anything).

 

Precisely.  And remember the girl with purple snakes in her hair will slay the Titan in the Castle of Ice according to the vision and oh how satisfying that would be...I think those knights of the Vale are going to join with her over him. 

That's exactly why I think people who assume she's now against Littlefinger are wrong:  because she should be able to trap him easily if she wanted to, and Littlefinger isn't going anywhere for a while.

[Winnief]

 I admit you make a case for the show now using Ramsay as the character We Love to Hate now that Joffrey's dead, but I think with Euron coming in Season 6, (and Cersei headed to complete Cuckoo Land) they won't need Ramsay to fill that role much longer and they're going to want to resolve some of these storylines.  Now that Winter has Come, the story, (and cast!) are going to start contracting a bit rather than continuously expanding.  And I think LF won't make it to the end.  If Martin was willing to kill off Tywin at the end of Book Three he'd be willing to let Baelish breath his last by Book 6 and his arrival at Winterfell.

 

Because while Sansa may not have turned on Baelish yet, she might very well learn something that will make her do so by the time he does get up North.

[Advance35]

I do realize Sansa salvation could be Littlefinger, but I would hate that so much.

 

 

I don't think LF and Sansa are done just because Sansa is so interested in survival.  LF is one of the most cockaroach like characters in the entire series and so far he's managed to survive and thrive despite every reversal of fortune that's had a domino effect on everyone else.   Even after all that's happened he's probably still the best one to hitch her wagon too.   Though it depends on how paramount the "White Walker" problem becomes or I should say, How soon it becomes, the paramount problem.

 

I could see Ramsay getting his just-deserts VIA White Walkers though.   Even if he does manage to savage his way to the top of the North Nobility Pyramid, there's nothing he can do against the invasion.   I defnitely don't think he'll meet his maker this season though.  For good or ill the character has attained HUGE notoriety.    He'll probably be a 2nd faction hunting Sansa, in addition to the Iron Throne.

[jimene79]

There's no chance that Ramsay dies on this mission.  That would completely remove any tension from Sansa and Theon's story.  He will make it back to the castle for that reason.

 

Ever since the Bolton characters entered the same plot two seasons ago, Ramsay has been clearly identified as the more prominent character.  There's been only one Roose scene in the last two seasons where Ramsay was not present (with Littlefinger in episode 503), whereas there are numerous Ramsay scenes without Roose.  Ramsay is the only villain that the heroic characters have any established dynamics with.  And he's needed to write the Pink Letter, which I think is most likely in.  If Roose dies, it will be because Sansa prods Ramsay into doing it (though given the amount of time left, I'm not convinced that the whole idea of her using Ramsay's insecurity about his inheritance against him is actually going to come to anything).

 

That's exactly why I think people who assume she's now against Littlefinger are wrong:  because she should be able to trap him easily if she wanted to, and Littlefinger isn't going anywhere for a while.

I agree that it looks like Ramsay will be successful in his plans.  However, I think it would undermine the books/show so badly if Stannis goes out that way - he's been set up as one of the toughest fighters in the kingdom and I think it would seriously undermine his characterization which they've dedicated a lot of time to.

[nksarmi]

 I admit you make a case for the show now using Ramsay as the character We Love to Hate now that Joffrey's dead, but I think with Euron coming in Season 6, (and Cersei headed to complete Cuckoo Land) they won't need Ramsay to fill that role much longer and they're going to want to resolve some of these storylines.  Now that Winter has Come, the story, (and cast!) are going to start contracting a bit rather than continuously expanding.  And I think LF won't make it to the end.  If Martin was willing to kill off Tywin at the end of Book Three he'd be willing to let Baelish breath his last by Book 6 and his arrival at Winterfell.

 

Because while Sansa may not have turned on Baelish yet, she might very well learn something that will make her do so by the time he does get up North.

I feel like they will surely give us the death of a villain this season.  We know what will likely happen with Jon and unless they kill him in 9 and resurrect him in 10, I think the writers will feel they owe the viewing audience one after they off the hero of the show (even if it is only temporary).  And by all accounts, to me - Jon IS the hero of the show (which is right those who think he is AA are probably correct).

 

So who could they kill to sate the rage people will feel over Jon?  They have to off a villain and Ramses has been the grossest of them all this season.  Frankly, I don't even count Kevin as a villain.  I don't think they will have Cersei die until the story absolutely dictates and she will definitely go out in a blaze of glory when it happens.  I'm almost positive the FM and High Sparrow story will continue into season six.  I also don't think LF will go down just yet though I would be happy if the show surprised me on this front.

 

They could kill any number of good characters: Tommen, Marg, Loras are all in danger in my opinion.  I think both Shirleen AND Stannis are in danger as well. 

 

But what villain can they off and please the audience?  I think it has to be Ramsey or Roose and I lean toward Ramsey in this instance.  I could see him being taken hostage and dying any number of ways.  I'm also convinced that Stannis will either die in Winterfell or will lose and return to the Wall in enough time to help fight the real battle with the men that survived.

 

If things play out the way some suspect and both Stannis and Jon die this season, perhaps it will go like this: Ramsey is taken prisoner, Roose and Stannis engage, perhaps it goes badly for Stannis BUT LF arrives with the Vale in time to defeat Roose. Stannis dies.  Mel enters Winterfell with LF and greets Sansa.  She essentially recreates the ritual that brought Dany's dragons to life by burning Ramsey alive while Stannis burns in an effort to resurrect him.  When it fails, she will see in the fire the truth of who Jon is (and they will show the audience this way).  At the same time, Jon is being burned at the Wall possibly with those who killed him as their punishment - and then once the reveal is complete, Jon emerges from the funeral fire at the Wall.

[mac123x]

If they want to kill off a villain they could wipe out the Sand Snakes.  Though I doubt anyone would care, considering how horribly written and acted they've been.

[ElizaD]

I think the showrunners love Ramsay so much as an outrageous, awesome supervillain that they will keep him alive as long as possible. During season 3, I thought they'd included the making of Reek because of their love of Alfie's great performance in season 2, but over time it feels like the emphasis in that story has shifted from Theon to Ramsay. He sent Yara running, now he'll get a win of some kind against Stannis. He gets sex scenes with hot partner in crime Myranda, he gets to rape Sansa (a POV character who's been around since the beginning) because the showrunners loved Ramsay's story in ADWD and wanted to include it without casting Jeyne.

 

I hope at least one of the key players of the game lives long enough to panic when the White Walkers arrive and can't be backstabbed or negotiated with. Sadly Tywin got an early death, Littlefinger and Olenna look like possible TWOW casualties to me, but maybe Varys will see his current plans for Dany wrecked by winter? It won't have quite the same impact, though, since he's already aware of the existence of magic and the return of the dragons.

[Oscirus]

It makes more sense for the Boltons to come out on top in the upcoming war ( without killing Stannis) because it would ultimately give Littlefinger more power when he eventually betrays them.  Also, one of Ramsey or Bolton has to betray the other. They've been building that story up for a while.

[screamin]

If Melisandre ends up performing some sort of resurrection ritual this season I wonder if it'll be similar to what happened when Dany had MMD burned. In addition to the eggs, Dany had king's blood, the blood of an enemy, and a sacrifice. We know Mel likes to sacrifice anyway so I think one might be involved in her attempt to resurrect Stannis. 

 

What if Ramsay ends up being the blood of the enemy in this case and ends up being burned to death? If ever there was a character who had a vicious death coming it's him and something like this would certainly fit the bill. 

 

I don't know, Ramsay is the one who wants to abandon the relative safety of Winterfell and its walls to do a surprise attack on a pretty determined Stannis and Stannis will have the numbers in this case. I agree that Stannis is going to die but I think he'll take out at least one of the Boltons before he goes. I'm undecided on which one but lean towards Ramsay because Ramsay just has it coming so bad I think more people are rooting for his death than Roose's.

 

I can see the show giving Euron Red Rain.  

 

I'd guess that Ramsey's scheme is to do an ambush - and possibly end up capturing Stannis' wife and/or child as hostage. I doubt that would be his original intent, as he couldn't know Stannis' family is traveling with him in the baggage train, but maybe his first plan is to attack Stannis' tent in the middle of the night and cut his throat and when that goes wrong he grabs at the nearest hostage instead. Or maybe he plans to offer himself up with his men as a minor Northern lord pledging fealty to Stannis against the vile Boltons, and then attempt to backstab Stannis at his convenience.

[Pogojoco]

For what? Jon already has a valyrian sword and Brienne's one of the best fighters in westeros. If anything, oathkeeper's right where it needs to be.

My problem with this theory is that storywise, it seems like a big waste to spend five seasons building up Stannis's claim to the throne just to have him killed by the Boltons. He feels more important to the main storyline then that.

Considering that he has two open storylines ( Walda's baby, Sansa's escape) and only two episodes left, it seems very doubtful that he dies this season.

I don't see Littlefinger ever getting what he wants from Sansa. That ship sailed the moment he left her in Winterfell to fend for herself.

Um, to deliver a piece of what was their father's sword to join the fight to save the world. Brienne can use it, but it would be a cool thing for her to show up on behalf of Sansa. Jon needs way more than one sword that can kill the white walkers.

[Winnief]

Also, one of Ramsey or Bolton has to betray the other. They've been building that story up for a while.

 

No argument there, but I think Roose is going to turn on Ramsay rather than the other way around.  From Roose's perspective, Ramsay's recklessness has become too much of a liability and now that Walda's pregnant, (likely with a boy,) he hardly needs the bastard anymore.  I think he authorized Ramsay's mission in hopes that Ramsay gets himself killed.

[cambridgeguy]

There would be a certain symmetry if Stannis (the favorite in the upcoming battle), the guy who used an assassin to kill Renly (the favorite in their impending battle) in his tent, was assassinated by Ramsey in his tent.  Somehow it seems too clean if Ramsay just slits his throat since he's the type to want to indulge in some flaying or other cruel and unusual punishment.

 

However, it would add to the general "you're all screwed" feeling if both sides wipe each other out - the North has lost a lot of soldiers and leaders over the war and since not everyone has Littlefinger's teleportation skills that would leave the North even more wide open to the ice zombie invasion with little chance of reinforcements arriving before the region is decimated.

[BlackberryJam]

Perhaps Stannis captures Ramsay and Roose just doesn't care?

[blixie]

 

Perhaps Stannis captures Ramsay and Roose just doesn't care?

 

That is what I've been getting off Roose, is that he's got Walda pregnant, and a dead Ramsay is his best outcome, he has a chance at a legit heir that isn't nearly as ribaldly sociopathic. But I am an unrepent fan of Roose, and his disgust for Ramsay (not that he's horrible monster, but that he's ostentatious horrible monster) amuses me both in the books and on the show. Never change Roose baby.

Edited June 2, 2015 by blixie

[Avaleigh]

I feel like they will surely give us the death of a villain this season.  We know what will likely happen with Jon and unless they kill him in 9 and resurrect him in 10, I think the writers will feel they owe the viewing audience one after they off the hero of the show (even if it is only temporary).  And by all accounts, to me - Jon IS the hero of the show (which is right those who think he is AA are probably correct).

 

So who could they kill to sate the rage people will feel over Jon?  They have to off a villain and Ramses has been the grossest of them all this season.  Frankly, I don't even count Kevin as a villain.  I don't think they will have Cersei die until the story absolutely dictates and she will definitely go out in a blaze of glory when it happens.  I'm almost positive the FM and High Sparrow story will continue into season six.  I also don't think LF will go down just yet though I would be happy if the show surprised me on this front.

 

They could kill any number of good characters: Tommen, Marg, Loras are all in danger in my opinion.  I think both Shirleen AND Stannis are in danger as well. 

 

But what villain can they off and please the audience?  I think it has to be Ramsey or Roose and I lean toward Ramsey in this instance.  I could see him being taken hostage and dying any number of ways.  I'm also convinced that Stannis will either die in Winterfell or will lose and return to the Wall in enough time to help fight the real battle with the men that survived.

 

If things play out the way some suspect and both Stannis and Jon die this season, perhaps it will go like this: Ramsey is taken prisoner, Roose and Stannis engage, perhaps it goes badly for Stannis BUT LF arrives with the Vale in time to defeat Roose. Stannis dies.  Mel enters Winterfell with LF and greets Sansa.  She essentially recreates the ritual that brought Dany's dragons to life by burning Ramsey alive while Stannis burns in an effort to resurrect him.  When it fails, she will see in the fire the truth of who Jon is (and they will show the audience this way).  At the same time, Jon is being burned at the Wall possibly with those who killed him as their punishment - and then once the reveal is complete, Jon emerges from the funeral fire at the Wall.

Agreed. I admit that it's partially wishful thinking on my part because I don't even really like to hate Ramsay and am pretty much over him but I can see the argument for why some think that he has a likelier chance of surviving in comparison to Roose or even Stannis. 

 

Ramsay will definitely be the most satisfying death for the audience, I think, and the fact that they're bringing on Euron next season gives me hope that they'll feel they can let one of their big villains go this year. Plus, IMO they'll want something to take the sting out of the death of Stannis assuming that ends up happening. 

 

I feel like Melisandre is correct in that she will end up walking the battlements of Winterfell but I think it's telling that she doesn't see Stannis in that vision. 

 

I also wonder if Sansa could indirectly help Melisandre put the pieces together regarding Jon and his parentage. I'm thinking about how Joffrey's parentage clicked into place for Ned when Sansa said something about wanting to have golden sons of Joffrey's. I feel like something similar could happen with Sansa repeating some details about Jon only for Melisandre to realize the truth or maybe be curious enough to ask more questions that eventually lead her to the truth. 

 

I think it's possible that Mel might even be the one to fill Sansa in on who Jon really is. 

[Blue Nocturne]

But I am an unrepent fan of Roose, and his disgust for Ramsay (not that he's horrible monster, but that he's ostentatious horrible monster) amuses me both in the books and on the show. Never change Roose baby.

 

 

Can I pull up a seat at this table?  Roose is far more appealing a villain than he has any right to be.

 

I think it's possible that Mel might even be the one to fill Sansa in on who Jon really is.

 

 

That reminds me, when Mel saw Arya in season 3, did she realize who Arya was or merely that Arya was going to kill a lot of people?  I imagine either her or Brienne are going to let Sansa know Arya's alive, especially since Sansa's had multiple episodes this season where she learned the fate of family members.

[SeanC]

I agree that it looks like Ramsay will be successful in his plans.  However, I think it would undermine the books/show so badly if Stannis goes out that way - he's been set up as one of the toughest fighters in the kingdom and I think it would seriously undermine his characterization which they've dedicated a lot of time to.

We know Stannis is alive in episode 10, from the blurb, so Ramsay evidently doesn't kill him.

[Mya Stone]

We know Stannis is alive in episode 10, from the blurb, so Ramsay evidently doesn't kill him.

Or he does kill him...in episode 10.

[Umbelina]

So does anyone know if it's only the Wights that can't go in water, or is it also the White Walkers?  Or is that even true?  If so, the people on the islands, and possibly the Crannogmen would seem to have a better chance of survival. 

[SeanC]

Or he does kill him...in episode 10.

From the trailers, the assault on Stannis' camp is next week.  I think Ramsay does whatever he's going there to do, and then goes back to Winterfell (because Sansa and Theon's escape requires him to be around for dramatic tension).

[Winnief]

I feel like Melisandre is correct in that she will end up walking the battlements of Winterfell but I think it's telling that she doesn't see Stannis in that vision.

 

I also wonder if Sansa could indirectly help Melisandre put the pieces together regarding Jon and his parentage. I'm thinking about how Joffrey's parentage clicked into place for Ned when Sansa said something about wanting to have golden sons of Joffrey's. I feel like something similar could happen with Sansa repeating some details about Jon only for Melisandre to realize the truth or maybe be curious enough to ask more questions that eventually lead her to the truth.

 

I think it's possible that Mel might even be the one to fill Sansa in on who Jon really is.

 

That sounds plausible.  Also it occurs to me that its almost certain now that Mel's going to meet Sansa and those two redheads should be very interesting on screen together.  What will Mel see when she meets the other Stark sister?  Also as I type this, it occurs to me that its entirely possible that Mel will want to offer up Theon as having King's blood from Balon Greyjoy...or at least because he's a heretic having been raised to follow the Drowned God.

[benteen]

Yeah, I think Ramsay has to be there for Sansa and Theon's escape too for suspense purposes.

 

I saw one reviewer note that FrankenGregor might be the kind of thing Westeros needs against the White Walkers.  Except he's the only one you can produce.

 

So...what does everyone think will be the final scene of the season?  I have no doubt Varys killing Kevan and Pycelle will be there but I can't imagine it being the last season for this season.  But I'm not sure how things will end.  On a cliffhanger I expect.

[magdalene]

If I have to choose between Roose or Ramsay living I am choosing Roose because like Tywin Roose is an awesome villain. Ramsay is beyond disgusting and every time he is on screen I start to chant "die, die, die already."

 

I wonder when the likes of Littlefinger, etc. will realize they are all just shuffling deck chairs around on the Titanic.

 

I know we are all pretty certain that Jon will get stabbed, dies and then ressurects - but what if they just kill him off with no coming back? Quite frankly I don't ever trust this show or GRRM to  give me nice things and let me keep them.

 

Final scene of season I think will be Dany riding Drogon.

Edited June 2, 2015 by magdalene

[SFoster21]

Cersei is due to die at a triumphant moment for her. I like to think that Frankengregor will prevail in a champion match on her behalf, then turn on her. When you unleash the golem, ...

[Avaleigh]

That sounds plausible.  Also it occurs to me that its almost certain now that Mel's going to meet Sansa and those two redheads should be very interesting on screen together.  What will Mel see when she meets the other Stark sister?  Also as I type this, it occurs to me that its entirely possible that Mel will want to offer up Theon as having King's blood from Balon Greyjoy...or at least because he's a heretic having been raised to follow the Drowned God.

Not that I think it'll come up but Sansa has king's blood too. There are so many different types Mel might not know what to do with herself. 

 

Cersei is due to die at a triumphant moment for her. I like to think that Frankengregor will prevail in a champion match on her behalf, then turn on her. When you unleash the golem, ...

Frankengregor isn't a little brother in any sense though. 

 

I really, really like the speculation that the other girl from the House of Black and White will kill Balon on the bridge. 

[benteen]

That is an interesting theory about the Waif.  I know there was some speculation back in Season 3 that a way to bring Jaqen back at that time was to have him be the one to kill Balon.

 

Speaking of old theories, I was thinking of one today when I saw a poster mention Euron and a completely cuckoo Cersei as villains for next season (given as well that the Boltons likely don't have that much time left).  I remember one fan idea on the Forum of Ice and Fire boards for future book stuff is Euron marrying an/or forming an alliance with Cersei.  Euron wants Dany but I just don't see that happening.  But some kind of alliance with Cersei would be intriguing and good for their short-term interests.  Though I imagine both would be plotting to kill the other.

[Avaleigh]

Though I imagine both would be plotting to kill the other.

Euron is a little brother. 

 

I'm curious as to who all will witness the walk. Olenna, Pycelle, a vision of Maggy, Lancel, the former High Septon, etc. Kevan and Qyburn will likely be there at the end of the journey in addition to Frankengregor. I didn't hear anything about Jack Gleeson filming but I'd love it if she ended up seeing a vision of him and maybe even of Tywin. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by Avaleigh

[nksarmi]

Perhaps Stannis captures Ramsay and Roose just doesn't care?

I considered this as a real possibility.  Roose does nothing to say Ramsay while Stannis dies to protect Shirleen perhaps? 

 

The way I see it is that Ramsey and Roose are very much in the same vein as Geoffrey and Tywin.  Geoffrey died first and I believe Ramsey will as well.  Littlefinger will probably have to take Roose out since I doubt Tryion will be around to do it.

 

I do wonder though - since on the show Stannis does not currently have the support of Northern Lords who want the Boltons gone - why doesn't Roose just switch his loyalty to Stannis and let him setup camp and Winterfell while he makes a plan to march south to KL.  Littlefinger has already made it clear to Roose how weak the Lannisters currently are (which has only gotten worse with the FM) and Stannis is the man Ned Stark backed as the true heir.  Surely Roose could negotiate remaining Warden of the North with Stannis if he gives him what he wants.  Why not take a page out of LF's book and just treat with Stannis with the idea that there is no way Cersei or any other Lannister can harm him?  Let Stannis march south and the stakes fall where they may. 

[nksarmi]

Yeah, I think Ramsay has to be there for Sansa and Theon's escape too for suspense purposes.

 

I saw one reviewer note that FrankenGregor might be the kind of thing Westeros needs against the White Walkers.  Except he's the only one you can produce.

 

So...what does everyone think will be the final scene of the season?  I have no doubt Varys killing Kevan and Pycelle will be there but I can't imagine it being the last season for this season.  But I'm not sure how things will end.  On a cliffhanger I expect.

I hope it is a resurrected Jon with Mel staring into the fire realizing who he really is.

 

I still don't think Sansa and Theon are going to need to escape.  I still say a lot could happen, including Ramsay's death that could lead to them staying.  And whoever called Mel burning Theon as the son of Greyjoy - good call.  I can really see that happening.

[Avaleigh]

While I agree that Ramsay has had a bit more of a presence on the show, I think there's more value to keeping Roose around as a character so I hope that he ends up living if a Bolton has to live. 

 

Lady Dustin had this to say about Roose:

Roose has no feelings, you see. Those leeches that he loves so well sucked all the passions out of him years ago. He does not love, he does not hate, he does not grieve. This is a game to him, mildly diverting. Some men hunt, some hawk, some tumble dice. Roose plays with men. You and me, these Freys, Lord Manderly, his plump new wife, even his bastard, we are but his playthings.

Doesn't that sound like a man who still has a role left to play in the story? I feel like we've only scratched the surface here whereas with Ramsay there is no other ground to cover. 

 

I do wonder what Mel and Roose would make of each other. He certainly wouldn't hesitate to burn his kid for his own ends. 

[SeanC]

Neither the show nor the books has really clarified this point, but I don't think Sansa and Theon have king's blood in the context that Stannis and Mel would need.  According to them, Stannis is the one true king of Westeros -- so Theon being Balon's son wouldn't matter, because Balon isn't a king, as far as they're concerned.  Sure, he's descended from some of the old Kings of the Iron Islands (as Sansa is from the old Kings of Winter), but if that counts, pretty much any noble in Westeros would have king's blood.

[Amtosbm]

 

I have this awful feeling that one of the reasons the show had Ramsay rape her is so that if or when she and Littlefinger enter a sexual relationship, he won't be the one who took away her virginity.

I am starting to have this awful feeling its because she ends up pregnant. I don't think Sansa has a killing personality at all, but if anything would prompt her to kill someone it would be to protect her own child. With White Walkers coming I am not sure if its smart for anyone to want to be in Winterfell in the next two seasons.  If anyone would make worthy wight chow it would be Ramsay. But then we would have to see his reanimated corpse instead.  I don't know what is worse.

 

 

And remember the girl with purple snakes in her hair will slay the Titan in the Castle of Ice according to the vision and oh how satisfying that would be.

Could this be referring to Castle Black? Maybe Sansa ends up there somehow in the books so they just moved her ahead up? All these prophecies make my head hurt and I am sure George is even going to have them come to frution.

 

 

I defnitely don't think he'll meet his maker this season though.  For good or ill the character has attained HUGE notoriety.    He'll probably be a 2nd faction hunting Sansa, in addition to the Iron Throne.

I think so too. He really has been way more prominent than Roose and people just hate him and are waiting for him to die. Look how long it took Joffrey and look how much talk and publicity the show has already gotten over him. I don't think he will last into season seven but he will be around for a good part of next year. Probably obssessively hunting down Sansa.  I don't know if I can handle looking at him and Euron. I was so hoping the Iron Born were gone.

 

I am starting to think Myranda lets Sansa out. She is supposed to be in that episode and I figure Ramsay will then kill her.  I am still curious why Selsye is wailing in the snow. Maybe Ramsay injures Stanni? I do agree the big battle won't be to next year. It feels like we are running out of time for things. Dorne feels like it hasn't moved an inch all season.

 

I am not looking forward to Dany in the Dothraki sea. At this point I think the Walkers will never leave the North and Jon will just end up destroying them all himself. While Cersei burns the city and the other families just kill each other. Dany just takes the entire prize because no one else is left. Really I have no idea how he is going to wrap this up in two books. Especially based on the chapters already out. Am I too cynical?

 

[blixie]

 

Doesn't that sound like a man who still has a role left to play in the story? I feel like we've only scratched the surface here whereas with Ramsay there is no other ground to cover.

 

Exactly Roose is dispassionate, I think that's why Ramsay kind of revolts him, he enjoys torture too much, Roose doesn't enjoy ANYTHING, and that definitely makes him in my opinion far more dangerous and formidable, in the sense of its impossible to understand what drives him and what motivates him (therefore to anticipate/counter his actions) you have to analyze him like a robot, not like a human being, even a horrible monstrous human being. 

[DigitalCount]

Euron is a little brother.

I should also point out that Tommen is a little brother, has been aged up, and became more central in a season where the WW are actually getting a move on, when it's been made precedent that a mother might freeze up when seeing (a zombie who reminds her of) her child...just saying :P