Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Avaleigh]

I don't think the other shoe is ever going to drop with regard to Sansa and Ramsay. I think there will be some fear there but ultimately don't believe that she's in for a round of sexual torture. 

[Danny Franks]

I don't think the other shoe is ever going to drop with regard to Sansa and Ramsay. I think there will be some fear there but ultimately don't believe that she's in for a round of sexual torture. 

 

I hope you're right, but I honestly do not believe these writers will have been able to resist the chance to stir controversy and get people talking. Especially when combined with the ambiguous references from some cast members to something like that happening. Even if they don't go as far as the books do (and honestly, how could they?), it's still something I have absolutely no interest in watching.

[nksarmi]

Given the look that Ramsey's female friend gave Sansa - I honestly think one of two things is going to happen....

 

1) She will be the only who attacks Sansa and Ramsey or Theo will have to kill her (possibly Brie if she is around)...

2) Ramsey will pull a Geoffrey and abuse the hell out of his whore so he can be pure with Sansa and someone (maybe Theo) will have to save that girl...

 

What I am much more interested in is if Sansa will try to engineer the murder of daddy Bolton to avenge her brother/mom.

[FurryFury]

Ramsey abusing Myranda instead of Sansa seems likely enough, I think. And I REALLY don't want to see it.

It could also incidentally parallel Sansa/Tyrion marriage with the husband being unexpectedly nice to Sansa while getting his freak on with another woman (of course, with Tyrion, it was just sex, not torture). However, at some point Ramsey will want something more from Sansa, and then, enter Brienne/Theon/Stannis' army.

 

However, knowing the show's track record with inventing rape scenes, I'm not as sure of Sansa getting off easily as I'd prefer to be.

Edited April 27, 2015 by FurryFury

[nksarmi]

However, knowing the show's track record with inventing rape scenes, I'm not as sure of Sansa getting off easily as I'd prefer to be.

 

That is a little odd, isn't it?  I mean there are rape and horrible scenes in the books so I guess they figure they are just switching them out - but it still comes off as a weird choice in most cases.  Victimizing a daughter of the North would be another weird choice as she has been a victim long enough.  Of course, it would be a very good reason to have the North rise up against the Bolton and spur Jon into action, but I think they can get there without that plot.  And while I may never believe Sansa as a player in the GoT - I do want to see her show some wolf and be the one to avenge the Red Wedding. 

 

I would love - love I tell you - if this plot played out so that Sansa has Roose killed, Theon kills Ramsey, and Sansa takes over Winterfell and rules until Ricken (who has been returned to her) comes of age.  Then when Littlefinger proposes that he and she marry to unite the North and the Vale like her mother and father did (which I am sure is where his plan is leading), she turns him down flat.  Then we see Sansa having to decide if she and the North will back Stannis' claim to the throne or not. 

[FurryFury]

I mean there are rape and horrible scenes in the books so I guess they figure they are just switching them out

 

The difference is that in the books, no POV characters are raped on-screen. I mean, I would classify Dany/Drogo as dub-con, but their first scene was explicitly non-forced, surprisingly gentle, even. They've removed it and replaced with him forcing herself on her, making me hate Show!Drogo until the end. It was hard for me to watch the show after that, because Dany's my favorite character, but I consider the book version my "personal" canon anyway.

 

Then we got Jaime/Cersei which was so unbelievably awful that I actually quit watching and only came back when they've basically admitted they've totally fucked up the execution and didn't intend for it to come across as rape (how is it possible, I've no idea - you really have to have no understanding of what consent is if you think this scene comes off as consensual). 

 

I'm not sure if the stuff with Craster's wives getting repeatedly raped by the rogue Night Watch was in the books, but it really had way too much of a focus, I was cringing all the way.

 

In the books, we do know rape happens and it's being mentioned from time to time, but it's all in the background. Main characters have managed to escape it, so far, even despite the multitude of attempted rape scenarios. For me, it helps a lot.

 

Victimizing a daughter of the North would be another weird choice as she has been a victim long enough.

 

Sansa' victimization is absurd at this point. I've just realized that most of her scenes with men since mid-season 1 make me very uncomfortable because these men are all in positions of power over her and they are interested in her sexually. I mean, we have had Joffrey, The Hound, Littlefinger and now Ramsey. Loras was the only one who wasn't threatening, and that's because he's not interested in women.

Edited April 27, 2015 by FurryFury

[DigitalCount]

First off, I have to say that despite not having the same fears as mostly everyone here, I'm so glad this forum exists. I'm at that... other forum reading like seventeen solid pages of people screaming about "fetch me a block" despite it not making sense for the scene written. It's almost as bad as the backlash against the exclusion of "Only Cat" which is one of George's worst lines imo.

I do think that they've telegraphed some things like Myranda vs. Sansa and Olly Marsh, but for the most part I'm okay with the changes. The only thing I'm worried about is Winterfell re: Littlefinger's motives. I mean, you don't use a precious Ming vase as a hammer, and that's essentially his plan. I can buy that Ramsey's worst actions have been shielded by his low status; he's only recently become worth knowing, and Baelish would have had no use for him before.

[BlackberryJam]

Why would any think Sansa would be okay marrying the son of the man who helped murder her mother and brother? Why. I just don't know. It's not as if she watched her father get beheaded then wandered around King's Landing declaring Joffrey her one true love and calling her father and brother a traitor. Just because we, the viewers, were aware of Sansa's completely misery doesn't many the Boltons were. Sansa, from an outsider's perspective, completely broke from her family. Which ...wasn't that part of GRRM's original plan?

And let's not assume Roose and Ramsay Bolton have any insight into women...or emotion even.

[Constantinople]

The only thing I'm worried about is Winterfell re: Littlefinger's motives. I mean, you don't use a precious Ming vase as a hammer, and that's essentially his plan. I can buy that Ramsey's worst actions have been shielded by his low status; he's only recently become worth knowing, and Baelish would have had no use for him before.

Perhaps, but shouldn't that make a man like Littlefinger hesitate to rush Sansa to altar, knowing how little he knows?

From everyone's favorite sexposition scene, Season 1 Episode 7: You Win Or You Die

 

Ros: Why don't you join us, My Lord?

LF: I'm saving myself for another.

Ros: What she doesn't know won't hurt her.

LF: A stupid saying. What we don't know is usually what gets us killed.

And from the S2 premiere, The North Remembers (coincidence?), when Littlefinger got a little too cutesy with Cersei

 

LF: But prominent families often forget a simple truth, I've found.

Cersei: And which truth is that?

LF: Knowledge is power.

Moreover, Ramsay had been Acting Lord of the Dreadfort while Roose was in the South.

 

Perhaps Littlefinger was flat out lying when he said he knew little about Ramsay.

[nksarmi]

I think they are trying to straddle the fence with Littlefinger. 

 

If he knowingly betrothed Sansa to a monster who likes to flay people alive, then he can hardly try to woo her into a marriage alliance later when Ramsey is dead.  Not to mention that if any fans have forgetting his scummy role in getting Ned killed or setting Cat on the wrong path after Tyrion - they might hate him a little too much if they think he deliberately put Sansa in harms way.  So they have one of the character who prides himself on knowing what everyone is up to say he knows nothing about this monster of a bastard.

 

We can always question if he is telling the truth, but I highly suspect that Littlefinger is arranging this marriage to set Sansa up back in Winterfell and then somehow, someway the Boltons are going to die.  Then LF will propose marriage between himself and Sansa, once again uniting the North and the Vale.  I do NOT know if he plans to back Stannis against the Lannisters (surely he knows Stannis is at the Wall) but since I can't believe LF thinks he can rise as high as the Iron Throne, then his next highest goal must be Warden of the North, yes?

[Hecate7]

If he knowingly betrothed Sansa to a monster who likes to flay people alive, then he can hardly try to woo her into a marriage alliance later when Ramsey is dead.  Not to mention that if any fans have forgetting his scummy role in getting Ned killed or setting Cat on the wrong path after Tyrion - they might hate him a little too much if they think he deliberately put Sansa in harms way.  So they have one of the character who prides himself on knowing what everyone is up to say he knows nothing about this monster of a bastard.

 

We can always question if he is telling the truth, but I highly suspect that Littlefinger is arranging this marriage to set Sansa up back in Winterfell and then somehow, someway the Boltons are going to die.  Then LF will propose marriage between himself and Sansa, once again uniting the North and the Vale.  I do NOT know if he plans to back Stannis against the Lannisters (surely he knows Stannis is at the Wall) but since I can't believe LF thinks he can rise as high as the Iron Throne, then his next highest goal must be Warden of the North, yes?

I think he lied when he said he didn't know. He never puts himself in a position like that. He would not betroth Sansa to someone he knew nothing about. He is just saying that because of the possible scenarios, that's the most forgivable.

 

I really don't care about Miranda, and so I'm not going to care if she's rescued or not. I'm also not going to get any satisfaction in her death because she's not important enough.

 

Littlefinger is good at convincing women that he loves them. But he really doesn't. This is a man who convinced Lyssa Arryn to marry him precisely so he could push her through the moon door and take her castle. He is Lord Protector of the Vale, Lord of Harrenhal and of the Fingers. If he can get Sansa knocked up by Ramsey and then kill Ramsey, he's Lord Protector of Winterfell and Warden of the North. He doesn't even have to marry her to do it--he's her uncle, her closest male relative. That leaves him free to knock off Edmure Tully and marry the pregnant Roslin, thereby becoming Lord Protector of the Riverlands. With three of the seven kingdoms united under him, and the other four at each other's throats, (Dorne vs. Casterly Rock, Highgarden eventually set against both), it should be a fairly easy thing to take the Iron Throne. If nothing else he could knock off Roslin Frey-Tully and marry Shireen, Myrcella, Danaerys, or Margaery, whichever one seems most likely to hold the throne.

[Danny Franks]

We can always question if he is telling the truth, but I highly suspect that Littlefinger is arranging this marriage to set Sansa up back in Winterfell and then somehow, someway the Boltons are going to die.  Then LF will propose marriage between himself and Sansa, once again uniting the North and the Vale.  I do NOT know if he plans to back Stannis against the Lannisters (surely he knows Stannis is at the Wall) but since I can't believe LF thinks he can rise as high as the Iron Throne, then his next highest goal must be Warden of the North, yes?

 

Honestly,if they reduce the Northern resistance and conspiring against the Boltons to more political shenanigans and backstabbing conjured up by Baelish, just for plot convenience and to make people go, 'oh wow. What a magnificent, super-smart, all-knowing bastard he is', I'll blow my fucking top. I already can't abide the character or the actor, but taking what was one of the true highlights of ADWD and making it about his personal goals would be an awful, awful injustice to the series.

 

The books dearly needed to start showing the 'good guys' getting some wins, and they actually did. Cersei's fall from grace, the Martell's long game, the North remembering the Starks. All those things added just a few slivers of hope to the last two books. The writers of this show need to have not thrown that stuff out because it didn't fit whatever story they're now trying to tell. We know Cersei's downfall is coming, but the other two threads are still very much up in the air, and seem much less powerful thanks to the stripping away of nearly all the characters involved.

[Avaleigh]

Ramsey abusing Myranda instead of Sansa seems likely enough, I think. And I REALLY don't want to see it.

It could also incidentally parallel Sansa/Tyrion marriage with the husband being unexpectedly nice to Sansa while getting his freak on with another woman (of course, with Tyrion, it was just sex, not torture). However, at some point Ramsey will want something more from Sansa, and then, enter Brienne/Theon/Stannis' army.

 

However, knowing the show's track record with inventing rape scenes, I'm not as sure of Sansa getting off easily as I'd prefer to be.

I'll be very surprised if we get the rape of a major character if that rape didn't take place in the books. They aren't claiming the rape that we all know happened to the character of Cersei. They're holding the line that that shit was consensual. Dany was raped by Drogo so that wasn't really a change IMO. Theon was nearly raped but it didn't happen. Brienne was close to being raped just as she was close to being raped in the books. Sansa and Arya are both threatened with rape as they are in the books. 

 

I was one of the people outraged by the rape in the Sept scene but I didn't feel the same outrage when we had those men of the Night's Watch raping and wreaking general havoc over at Craster's. It made sense to me to include this scene to remind viewers that most men on the Wall aren't like Jon or Sam but are very often hardened criminals who would be willing to steal, rape, and kill given the right circumstances. 

 

Apart from Septgate the only other scene that I had a problem with was the scene with Joffrey and the prostitutes, and that scene wasn't even really sexual it was just straight up torture. At least we didn't see the worst of it but it still felt mostly unnecessary to me. I already knew that Joffrey was a sick son of a bitch without needing them to add that.  

Edited April 27, 2015 by Avaleigh

[SFoster21]

I think he lied when he said he didn't know. He never puts himself in a position like that. He would not betroth Sansa to someone he knew nothing about. He is just saying that because of the possible scenarios, that's the most forgivable.

I really don't care about Miranda, and so I'm not going to care if she's rescued or not. I'm also not going to get any satisfaction in her death because she's not important enough.

Littlefinger is good at convincing women that he loves them. But he really doesn't. This is a man who convinced Lyssa Arryn to marry him precisely so he could push her through the moon door and take her castle. He is Lord Protector of the Vale, Lord of Harrenhal and of the Fingers. If he can get Sansa knocked up by Ramsey and then kill Ramsey, he's Lord Protector of Winterfell and Warden of the North. He doesn't even have to marry her to do it--he's her uncle, her closest male relative. That leaves him free to knock off Edmure Tully and marry the pregnant Roslin, thereby becoming Lord Protector of the Riverlands. With three of the seven kingdoms united under him, and the other four at each other's throats, (Dorne vs. Casterly Rock, Highgarden eventually set against both), it should be a fairly easy thing to take the Iron Throne. If nothing else he could knock off Roslin Frey-Tully and marry Shireen, Myrcella, Danaerys, or Margaery, whichever one seems most likely to hold the throne.

I love this! Though, with that history, wouldn't one or two ladies hesitate? Charming as he is..,

Please, he could court Lysa because she knew him of old when she was younger and comelier, but she was a dried up crazy hag. No brainer.

But any of those others even listening? His caste is all wrong and he is a slimeball.

But this is still so good!

[Hecate7]

He was never lower caste. He was always a lord, it was just that he was such a minor lord that the Great Houses wouldn't consider him. And he may already have done some work insuring a yes from Margaery Tyrell when the time comes. He helped her to her marriage to Renly, and the one to Joffrey. In a roundabout way he helped with the one to Tommen, too, by helping Olenna kill Joffrey.

[Mr. Simpatico]

We can always question if he is telling the truth, but I highly suspect that Littlefinger is arranging this marriage to set Sansa up back in Winterfell and then somehow, someway the Boltons are going to die.  Then LF will propose marriage between himself and Sansa, once again uniting the North and the Vale.  I do NOT know if he plans to back Stannis against the Lannisters (surely he knows Stannis is at the Wall) but since I can't believe LF thinks he can rise as high as the Iron Throne, then his next highest goal must be Warden of the North, yes?

King in the North perhaps? I agree. LF is not angling for the Iron Throne - he knows he can't get that for himself at least. And while he's in control of the Vale, this is only as Regent for Robin. He has no ancestral claim to that either. BUT he can marry Sansa off to the Boltons (or attempt to), then kill the Boltons (saving himself a messy invasion) and have Sansa take the North where she will have huge support and then marry her himself. Then he crowns her Queen in the North with himself as King and Baelish is the next dynasty and he can marry off his kids to the Iron Throne. LF is the type, like Varys, who plans things in the background. I doubt he would present HIMSELF as the next King of Westeros.

 

Of course this made a lot more sense in the Books when as far as anyone know Sansa is the last living Stark (save Jon). But in the show Brienne and Pod know Arya is alive and Sam and Jon know Bran (the next Lord of Winterfell) and Rickon are alive. I do love how the show handwaves away Sansa's marriage to Tyrion as if it was no big deal when it was unconsummated in the books the idea of a "Sansa Lannister" is enough for Robb and Catelyn agree to disinherit her.

 

I will be upset if D&D just do away with the whole Northern uprising plot which is the absolute BEST part of AWDW. Manderly and "The North Remembers", his grandaughter telling off the Freys, a fleet being built in White Harbour, the Northern lords (including Alysane Mormont) allying with Stannis to return the Starks and destroy the Boltons, Davos retrieving Rickon. Great stuff. But there's not even a hint of it, while the show is moving ahead of ADWD. 

 

Also the Freys have vanished off the face of the earth. Even without Lady Stonheart, the hatred of the Freys in Westeros, and especially in the North and the Riverlands is a huge background part of the books post-RW. But we haven't seen a hint of Walder Frey, the Blackfish, Edmure or any of the Riverlands plot. Brienne is in the North, Jaime is in Dorne and Lady Stonheart doesn't exist on the show (and the Brotherhood haven't been seen in over a season). I don't get it. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by Mr. Simpatico

[Winnief]

Interesting that we got ANOTHER reference to greyscale last night-from the street priestess in Volantis discussing the Stone Men.  So someone on the show is going to get it, and with JonCon out of the picture, my money's on Jorah and/or Tyrion.

[nksarmi]

I think he lied when he said he didn't know. He never puts himself in a position like that. He would not betroth Sansa to someone he knew nothing about. He is just saying that because of the possible scenarios, that's the most forgivable.

 

I really don't care about Miranda, and so I'm not going to care if she's rescued or not. I'm also not going to get any satisfaction in her death because she's not important enough.

 

Littlefinger is good at convincing women that he loves them. But he really doesn't. This is a man who convinced Lyssa Arryn to marry him precisely so he could push her through the moon door and take her castle. He is Lord Protector of the Vale, Lord of Harrenhal and of the Fingers. If he can get Sansa knocked up by Ramsey and then kill Ramsey, he's Lord Protector of Winterfell and Warden of the North. He doesn't even have to marry her to do it--he's her uncle, her closest male relative. That leaves him free to knock off Edmure Tully and marry the pregnant Roslin, thereby becoming Lord Protector of the Riverlands. With three of the seven kingdoms united under him, and the other four at each other's throats, (Dorne vs. Casterly Rock, Highgarden eventually set against both), it should be a fairly easy thing to take the Iron Throne. If nothing else he could knock off Roslin Frey-Tully and marry Shireen, Myrcella, Danaerys, or Margaery, whichever one seems most likely to hold the throne.

This might be what HE is thinking, but I don't think any such plane would work for him.  He HAS to back someone with an actual claim to the Iron Throne.  And a child King like Tommen would have been his biggest preference if his aspiration rose as high as Hand of the King.  But I really think he will stop at Warden of the North and possibly making a play for the Riverlands in order to rule over all those who made fun of him or teased him as a child.

[Shanna]

Ramsey abusing Myranda instead of Sansa seems likely enough, I think. And I REALLY don't want to see it..

At this point I don't even want to see Ramsey's smug face unless he is about to die. Painfully.

So, it's hard to get excited about this storyline unless that is going to happen. I can't take the idea of Sansa being so much as touched by him and I pretty much hated Sansa for half the books. I like show Sansa better but still.

I like the other aspects of the adaptation mostly.

I actually think/hope this Sansa thing might be easier to rewatch if she isn't abused and Ramsey/Roose get what's coming to them. But I can't actually enjoy this until I know.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Shanna

[benteen]

The Freys seems to be locked away in the same black hole that the Greyjoys are...although at least we get an occasional Frey reference.

 

Littlefinger is Robin's stepfather by marriage so that probably allows him to rule the Eyrie until he comes of age.  He's Sansa's uncle by marriage but he has no blood claim to the Vale.  Sansa doesn't have Arryn blood but she is a first cousin of Robin Arryn.

 

Roose mentioned that Littlefinger was a ruling lord but of what exactly?  The show has never established that he is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (which was a stupid mistake on their part), only the Lord of Harrenhal.  His hold on the Eryie is short-lived for the time being (unless Robin dies and that's unlikely on the show).  I can understand Lord Royce wanting to keep Sansa safe.  She's Ned's daughter, a relative of Robin Arryn, and he pretty much promised he would do so.  But how can he be happy at the prospect of Sansa being given to the family that wiped out her family?  Littlefinger is really going to have to sell him a huge bill of goods on that one.  Royce doesn't even have to give Robin back to him.

 

I understand the concern that the North Remembers, one of the very best parts of ADWD, has been neglected.  D and D have always seemed far more interested in King's Landing than anything else.  They've made some references towards it but there's not an independent Manderly push for it.  Only Sansa after being prodded by Littlefinger.  I get being annoyed at that.  But if it ends with Sansa coming into her own and turning the tables on Littlefinger, then it can still be pulled off.

Edited April 27, 2015 by benteen

[loki567]

Something I do appreciate, so far the writers haven't gone overboard adding material to the King's Landing storyline. They seem to be following the books in recognizing the story's heading North and to Essos.

[Advance35]

I wonder if it was a budgeting issue with regards to the heavy emphasis on Kings Landing.  Personally that was my favorite part of the story in the books, everything that happened or was decided there seemed to ripple out to effect all the other story locations.   But in the show you have heavy hitting (and I assume expensive) actors/actresses like Charles Dance, Diana Rigg, Peter Dinklage and Lena Heady are payed their worth I have know doubt, I also doubt Natalie Dormer is being underpaid.   I'd imagine HBO wanted to make sure those actors/actresses would earn their money.

 

Mix in useful and popular characters like Varys, Littlefinger, Sansa and Shae.  I see why Kings Landing was given the VIP treatment.   As much as I love the storyline in the books, I can see why the Vale was nixed and Sansa moved into the North Storyline.  They have Dany removed with her own cast of supporting characters and viewers seem to be detaching from the whole business, maybe they wanted to avoid that with Sansa.

 

I think the renewed interest in Dany is definitely in part, thanks to the implied impending interaction between her, Tyrion and Varys.

[lion10]

I'm confused about Olenna's characterization this season.  In the book, the Sand Snakes want vengeance against the Lannisters and are willing to strike at Myrcella to do it and it's Olenna that doesn't want anymore bloodshed between the Martells and Lannisters.

[Hecate7]

Why would any think Sansa would be okay marrying the son of the man who helped murder her mother and brother? Why. I just don't know. It's not as if she watched her father get beheaded then wandered around King's Landing declaring Joffrey her one true love and calling her father and brother a traitor. Just because we, the viewers, were aware of Sansa's completely misery doesn't many the Boltons were. Sansa, from an outsider's perspective, completely broke from her family. Which ...wasn't that part of GRRM's original plan?

And let's not assume Roose and Ramsay Bolton have any insight into women...or emotion even.

 

In this culture, it is extremely unusual for anyone to get married because they want to, or to anyone they actually desire. Sansa's engagement to Joffrey wasn't hers to call off, remember? She was given a chance to refuse Tyrion, but she didn't take it very seriously because they'd have just married her to another Lannister.

 

She could have refused this one, but Littlefinger talked her round, as he knew he could. Ramsey Bolton is actually the most logical choice for Sansa, now that Baratheons and Lannisters are out. This is a frequent problem with medieval royal society. When you lose, you marry the people you lost to, unless you'd prefer to be put to death by them.

 

Sansa seems to have a talent for putting her faith in the wrong people. It's like her superpower.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Hecate7

[dargosmydaddy]

I'm wondering if/ when/ where we'll see Gendry again.

[SilverShadow]

I'm confused about Olenna's characterization this season.  In the book, the Sand Snakes want vengeance against the Lannisters and are willing to strike at Myrcella to do it and it's Olenna that doesn't want anymore bloodshed between the Martells and Lannisters.

 

I think you mean Ellaria. Olenna is Margaery's grandmother. Show!Ellaria seems to have been merged with Arianne Martell, to play the role of the person in the Martell circles gunning for war and apparently getting back-up from the Sand Snakes. ("The Sand Snakes are with me.") 

[Cheshrkat]

 

Something I do appreciate, so far the writers haven't gone overboard adding material to the King's Landing storyline. They seem to be following the books in recognizing the story's heading North and to Essos.

 

My main issue with the writers is that they only seem to appreciate the part of the story in the North that takes place at or north of the Wall.  They have completely neglected to build up the North as a powerful region beyond that, by paying short shrift to most of the Northern allies other than the Boltons, who ultimately turned traitor.  The Reeds and the Umbers have been particularly neglected.

 

But at least the North has fared better than the Riverlands.

 

That being said, at the end of the day I'm all about the Starks.  If the new Sansa material means we are seeing more of her, I'm cautiously optimistic that it will be tweaked and will truly be about Sansa and not just a Jeyne Poole retread, because I don't want to see her tortured.  And I'm happy that they are doing right by Arya and Jon Stark.

 

I am dubious about their portrayal of Dorne, but then again I had no use for Dorne in the books so it's not like they can ruin what I already perceive as a waste of time.  And if they have substantially cut out most of the Greyjoys, then I call that a more than fair trade for making me wait a year for Bran.

[Shanna]

I think I will enjoy dorne more than the books, like I enjoyed Oberon more in the show. The visuals help. Dorne is pretty.

I am a bit concerned about what they've done to ellaria of course, but they could do some great stuff with this arc - the question is if they will.

Same for the Sansa arc. It could go wonderfully or terribly. So...fingers crossed?

[Hecate7]

This might be what HE is thinking, but I don't think any such plane would work for him.  He HAS to back someone with an actual claim to the Iron Throne.  And a child King like Tommen would have been his biggest preference if his aspiration rose as high as Hand of the King.  But I really think he will stop at Warden of the North and possibly making a play for the Riverlands in order to rule over all those who made fun of him or teased him as a child.

 

They're dead. Brandon Stark, Catelyn Tully, Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, Lyssa....Renly Baratheon. There's nobody left alive now, who was there to laugh at him then. I guess Edmure is still around somewhere, and the Blackfish, so they'll both have to die. I don't think he wants to rule the people who made fun of him. I think he wants them dead, and I think he'll accomplish that. I can't imagine why he would stop at Warden of the North. I don't think he's at all interested in living there. He'll take the Riverlands, the Vale, and the North, and probably Casterly Rock. Nobody at Highgarden ever did anything to him, so I think he'll leave them alone unless they get in his way. And then he'll take the Red Keep, because he'll have all the rest of the pieces on the board.

[Holmbo]

My main issue with the writers is that they only seem to appreciate the part of the story in the North that takes place at or north of the Wall. They have completely neglected to build up the North as a powerful region beyond that, by paying short shrift to most of the Northern allies other than the Boltons, who ultimately turned traitor. The Reeds and the Umbers have been particularly neglected.

But at least the North has fared better than the Riverlands.

Hopefully they will get to it when/if it gets relevant to the plot. The north and the riverlands has been built up as if important things will happen here but so far in the books they've had no major importance.

[Avaleigh]

Speaking of the show blowing up book theories--

 

I have to concede that this most recent episode has totally made me rethink the theory that Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard. Now that Barristan has been killed before giving the reveal about Joanna I can't think who else would give Dany or Tyrion any clues on that front. Jaime and Cersei were too young (supposedly only four when Joanna died although given Oberyn's story about meeting Tyrion when he was a baby makes it sound like the twins were older than four when he was born), Pycelle has no reason to bring it up (and will be dead soon anyway), Littlefinger wouldn't know, etc. I suppose it could be Varys but then one wonders why he hasn't mentioned it yet since Tyrion was all messed up from his feelings about the patricide to say nothing about Tysha, Jaime, and everything else. 

[Winnief]

I have to concede that this most recent episode has totally made me rethink the theory that Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard. Now that Barristan has been killed before giving the reveal about Joanna I can't think who else would give Dany or Tyrion any clues on that front.

 

For the record, I never bought A+J=T, and felt the show subtly tried to discourage that viewpoint, by giving Tyrion the same blond locks of Jaime and Cersei to emphasize they were siblings.  To put it bluntly, that particular secret would have just blown up the entire Tyrion/Tywin dynamic.  The whole point of their relationship was that Tyrion was not only Tywin's child, but the only one of his children to inherit his political smarts...but that Tywin was incapable of seeing that because of his prejudice against his son's disability-and that this led inevitably to a life and death battle between the two with Tyrion becoming a cursed kinslayer.  Having Tyrion be Aerys's bastard, just ruins the whole thing.  Besides we already have one secret Targaryen heir out there-two is just overkill. 

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion's hair changed a lot over the seasons. In the first season he had much lighter blonde hair. 

 

I don't think Jon is a bastard. I think Tyrion would have been the only Targaryen bastard. 

 

I thought there was more irony in the non biological child being the one that was most like Tywin. 

[John Potts]

Winnief Tywin was incapable of seeing that because of his prejudice against his son's disability

 

While Tywin is a horrible person (although an awesome character), I'm pretty sure he could look past Tyrion's disability if he hadn't caused his mother's death. Not that blaming a child because of his mother's death in childbirth isn't horrible but it's probably more common than you'd like to think.

[FurryFury]

The question of Tyrion's parentage gets brought up from time to time, but my opinion hasn't changed - I think both version would work for me. Yes, Tywin being so dead set against Tyrion because of the combination of his dwarfism with Joanna's death is a great example of tragic irony, but there is a sense of narrative logic if all 3 of the main characters - Jon, Dany and Tyrion - would turn out to be related, especially if they're also all dragon riders. However, after the latest episode, I think if Tyrion were to be a secret Targ, it would have been foreshadowed much better. Just look how many times Rhaegar has been name-dropped, R+L=J is totally happening (not that I had much doubt ever since I've first read this theory so many years ago).

[DigitalCount]

With respect to Tywin's hatred of Tyrion over his dwarfism versus Joanna's death: I agree, I think it's an issue where one would be excusable but both together are intolerable to someone like Tywin.

I'm not a believer in AJT and in fact dislike the idea that any of the Lannisters aren't Tywin's, but at least on the issue of someone who can say something about it, it doesn't need to be someone directly privy to the information. For example, while Howland Reed might come out of nowhere to tell Jon about the Tower of Joy, I have little doubt (see what I'm doing here?) that Lord Baelish will be relaying that particular chestnut on the show. This isn't because he was present, but because he's the only one with enough info who could just figure out the rest. Now, on the show they have presented Olenna and Varys as Littlefinger's intellectual peers, and Varys is in a position to be able to figure something like AJT out. Heck, for all we know Tyrion is Varys' ace in the hole.

That's basically all to say, don't give up hope. Even if I don't personally agree, I know how fun it is to theorize, even more when our pet theories make it onto the screen. And goodness knows that my personal pet theory (Ice-Tommen as the valonqar) has little to no traction, so I know how it feels to champion a tough theory.

Edited May 4, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Shanna]

I never though Tyrion was anything but a lannisters. Works better thematically for me this way.

[Oscirus]

In order for A+J=t to be a thing on the show they would've had to have set that up a lot earlier. I don't remember there being any mention of Aegon's obsession with Joanne or even a throwaway line like someone saying that Tyrion looked like the mad king.  That being said, I'd appreciate the irony of the only member of that family not into incest being a Targeryen.

 

Sorry I'm late with this, but to comment on an earlier conversation point, I think Littlefinger definitely wants to be king.  At this point, he's concentrating on making his name prestigious enough that when his path to the throne starts to clear up, he'll be able to ascend the steps without much conflict.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Oscirus

[Maximum Taco]

I never bought the Tyrion Targaryen theory.

 

The books go out of their way to emphasize that Tyrion is the most like Tywin out of the three Lannisters. And it's not like Jon where there are several clues to his "true identity." All there is are little throwaway lines about Aerys coveted Joanna.

 

Tyrion's angst at never being accepted by his family and also being the most like his father, especially the parts his father values in himself and also still being tied to their fortunes and legacy is part of what makes his character sympathetic. It's not as interesting if he's not a Lannister IMO.

 

Also I like the love story between Tywin and Joanna, since that is one of the few things that humanizes Tywin. Her being raped and concealing that from Tywin, or worse yet willingly sleeping with Aerys taints that horribly.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Danny Franks]

I never bought that theory either. I just don't see Tywin as the sort of man who wouldn't immediately plot his revenge, and try to orchestrate Aerys' fall himself. In reality, he did nothing while other men acted, and then he inveigled himself in at the last second, once the war was already won.

 

I also don't think he ever needed more reason to hate Tyrion than the simple fact that Tyrion was a dwarf. It was shameful, embarrassing. Even more embarrassing that this twisted, stunted child was his son. If he'd been a bastard, even one that was proof of Joanna being unfaithful (willingly or unwillingly), I think he'd have been more able to accept it. Then, Tyrion would be a symbol of someone else's failings, rather than his own (in Tywin's eyes, that is). The fact that Tyrion's existence ended Joanna's just made his hatred more bitter and personal.

[Holmbo]

I could see J+A=T be true because it would fit well into the story. The dragon having three heads and all. It doesn't technically take away from Tywin and Tyrion relationship I think. Because no way Tywin would have kept Tyrion if he thought he was a bastard. He might have had some suspicion or perhaps wishful thinking about it but he wouldn't know.

Though I'm saying technically because there's always a risk that people read it as Tywin always knowing Tyrion wasn't his son and that was the only reason he treated him badly.

[Constantinople]

The Stone Men have been moved from WhereEverTheHell, Essos in the books to Valyria. Most likely, as others have noted, for storytelling convenience. It looks as if the whole Aegon story line looks as if it's been dropped, and now either Jorah or Tyrion will get greyscale (plus it ties back to why WhatsHerName told Jorah in Season 2 that you need protection if you travel by Old Valyria).

But now Valyria appears to be the home of those afflicted with greyscale as well as the ancestral home of the dragons.

That may just be a coincidence.

[benteen]

Like I said, I'm looking forward to seeing the Stone Men now.  Although I think Jorah's going to need a bigger boat.

 

If A+J=T, I would hate it because it would forever alter the far more interesting Lannister family dynamic, particularly the Tywin/Tyrion relationship.

 

Getting back to what was discussed earlier, I think if Joanna had lived and say died a year later of an unrelated illness, she would have loved Tyrion.  That love might have been enough for Tywin to try to love him though I can't see it being easy for him.

 

So, when Arya kills Ser Meryn, she may very well be (unknowingly) saving Mace Tyrell's life and thwarting one of Cersei's schemes.  Would be great if she realized this and pulled the "you owe me your life!" card on Mace.

Edited May 5, 2015 by benteen

[GreyBunny]

I don't think she wants to kill Mace, she does need someone to renegotiate terms with the Iron Bank so I think his mission to Braavos on that level is sincere.  She just wanted him out of her hair because he's annoying, which is dumb because he's the only Tyrell that is willing to hump her leg.  Also, if the terms fall through she would need House Tyrell's monetary backing and Mace is the only one who will offer it to her without extra conditions, or at all since Loras has been stuffed in jail.  If she's actually planning for Meryn to kill him she's even stupider than advertised. 

 

I hate the idea of A+J=T but the info in the supplemental World Book is attention-getting.  Now that Barristan is dead, if the show wants to pursue that storyline they could have maybe Sam or Shireen or someone finding Maester Yendel's writings about Aerys in some dusty book stashed in a library somewhere.

[Holmbo]

Also I think all this talk about grayscale mean we're definitely getting the stone men and the reason we're getting them is either that Tyrion will die from grayscale spreading from inside him or Jorah will get it without telling anyone and spread it to Westeros.

[FurryFury]

The books go out of their way to emphasize that Tyrion is the most like Tywin out of the three Lannisters.

 

Well, technically, Tywin and Joanna were first cousins (IIRC), so they still would be related even if not as closely.

 

Also I think all this talk about grayscale mean we're definitely getting the stone men and the reason we're getting them is either that Tyrion will die from grayscale spreading from inside him or Jorah will get it without telling anyone and spread it to Westeros.

 

I think Jorah is more likely. If there is some purpose to Cliff being ill with greyscale, it will probably make a bit more sense to combine him with Jorah rather than a much more important character.

Edited May 5, 2015 by FurryFury

[Holmbo]

Well, technically, Tywin and Joanna were first cousins (IIRC), so they still would be related even if not as closely.

I think Jorah is more likely. If there is some purpose to Cliff being ill with greyscale, it will probably make a bit more sense to combine him with Jorah rather than a much more important character.

I wish the show would find a way to include them being cousins because I think that would get a huge reaction from viewers and a lot of hilarious jokes.

About Jorah i think you're right and it makes me sad for fans of him because keeping an infectious disease secret is a really shitty thing to do.

Maybe both will happen. I've seen a lot of foreshadowing in the books for Tyrion dying of greyscale.

[ElizaD]

Also I think all this talk about grayscale mean we're definitely getting the stone men and the reason we're getting them is either that Tyrion will die from grayscale spreading from inside him or Jorah will get it without telling anyone and spread it to Westeros.

 

I didn't pay much attention to grayscale in the books, but it getting mentioned on the show when so much has been cut has really made me wonder. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing the showrunners would love to include. If Tyrion dies of grayscale, maybe they felt they had to be faithful to the books even if it's not the most upbeat or glorious ending for their favorite. But dying of disease seems so low-key for someone as major as Tyrion. Maybe it becomes a widespread plague instead, but even then, it feels a little pointless - shouldn't winter and the epic return of the Others be enough to wreck Westeros? If that is done by a plague instead, the Others keep on being irrelevant.

[Holmbo]

I didn't pay much attention to grayscale in the books, but it getting mentioned on the show when so much has been cut has really made me wonder. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing the showrunners would love to include. If Tyrion dies of grayscale, maybe they felt they had to be faithful to the books even if it's not the most upbeat or glorious ending for their favorite. But dying of disease seems so low-key for someone as major as Tyrion. Maybe it becomes a widespread plague instead, but even then, it feels a little pointless - shouldn't winter and the epic return of the Others be enough to wreck Westeros? If that is done by a plague instead, the Others keep on being irrelevant.

I agree it doesn't seem like a kind of thing that the show would want to do. There always the possibility that Tyrion dying of greyscale is very important because maybe his actions because of it affects other plots and characterrs. If he is a position of power at the end and dying he might legitimize some people or go on a suicide mission into casterly rock for example.

[Oscirus]

Is it possible for someone that we haven't considered to get it. Someone like Varys who travels a lot and someone who once he kills off Kevan and that old dude becomes disposable?