S00.E148: The Husbands Of River Song

[LiveenLetLive]

 

Tate, Barrowman and Kingston's hiring as River Song were all when RTD ran the show. The internet rumor is that Moffat is looking for another 20-something female as the next companion. I hope that rumor is dead wrong.

Why is Moffat so hung up on this meme? At least on Sherlock they hired Martin Freeman's real partner (a woman in her 40's) to play Watson's wife. If he needs a young person why not a young man companion (ala classic Who) for a change? Or is he afraid if he doesn't provide a fan boy pin-up no one will watch? Didn't he notice how great the Donna episodes were?  Alex Kingston proves that "older" isn't unsexy (my God that woman exudes sex appeal.)

[ganesh]

I think Who is at its best when they take a fairly "ordinary" person who does brave things because they've been inspired by the Doctor. Rory and Donna really are what the companions should be. When they start making the companions sooper special, I think they lose the crowd. Clara's walking around like she's too cool for school, and we're all "ha. serves her right" when she 'died' and then rolled our eyes when she was too special to die. It's tedious.

 

River and Jack are the exceptions because they were always intended to be larger than life, and you do need some of that in this show. You can't have that kind of character be more than recurring though. These episodes are great to just let loose every now and then each season. 

[foreverevolving]

That was terrible. Pointless and unfunny. Unless the point is that River is a sociopath. How Christmassy! And romantic. Does this mean this appalling Moffatt creation has gone for good? I hope so. Alex Kingston deserves better.

 

Well she would be the first in line to say that she is a sociopath, sooo..

Edited December 27, 2015 by foreverevolving

[cardigirl]

I'm a Doctor Who fan who loved Clara. I thought she and Capaldi were good together. I didn't like the writing as much this past season as I have before, and every time I watch a Matt Smith episode, I'm reminded of why I miss the good story-telling from past seasons.

I loved this episode. I thought the writing was great. But I didn't love it because Capaldi is better than Smith. I just loved it.

Matt Smith and Alex Kingston were great together and Peter Capaldi and Alex Kingston were great together.

The only companion I've had trouble warming up to is Donna. Not sure why. THat mole on her chin bugs the heck out of me. But I never did see why she was a good companion for the Doctor. In the Pompeii episode she begs him to save someone, so he bends the rules and does. Maybe thats the start of the Doctor deciding to bend the rules. The only other character I have trouble watching is Jackie. UGH!

It's fine with me if the next companion is young and female. Or young and male. It's fine with me if the next companion is old and female. Or old and male. I would have loved to have seen Rory's father's adventures with the Doctor. I'm just glad I don't have to make the decision. I don't know how one tops introducing Amy as the companion. That has to be one of the best episodes of Doctor Who ever.

And, since this is the thread about the Christmas special, thank you Mr. Moffat for a fine, fun, touching episode. Made my Christmas that much brighter.

[HauntedBathroom]

Oh my god, the ancient crone! She must never be allowed near Doctor Who, or she'll get her geriatric cooties all over Moffat and not having a pretty young girl for his show to focus on will make his dangly bits shrivel and fall off!

 

You do realise this is your interpretation of Steven Moffat's attitude, not something he's said so far? Given that he created the character of River and specified her as a woman over 40, I doubt he's got a problem with mature women.

 

Edited December 27, 2015 by HauntedBathroom

[Kromm]

Catherine Tate and John Barrowman were both in their late 30s when they were cast as companions. Alex Kingston was in her mid 40s. I don't see it necessarily being a twenty something woman.

It's arguable if Barrowman was really a companion or not. He was really more of a reoccuring guest star.

[catrox14]

It's arguable if Barrowman was really a companion or not. He was really more of a reoccuring guest star.

 

Seems pretty straightforward to me that Jack was definitely a companion. He was with the Doctor in the TARDIS from Doctor Dances until he was abandoned by the Doctor in Parting of the Ways after being made immortal by Rose.

Edited December 27, 2015 by catrox14

[azshadowwalker]

I think Who is at its best when they take a fairly "ordinary" person who does brave things because they've been inspired by the Doctor. Rory and Donna really are what the companions should be. When they start making the companions sooper special, I think they lose the crowd. Clara's walking around like she's too cool for school, and we're all "ha. serves her right" when she 'died' and then rolled our eyes when she was too special to die. It's tedious.

 

River and Jack are the exceptions because they were always intended to be larger than life, and you do need some of that in this show. You can't have that kind of character be more than recurring though. These episodes are great to just let loose every now and then each season.

I didn't feel that way about Clara at all. In fact, I found the hatred of the young woman to be a really gross part of Who fandom. I found it gross when aimed at Rose and at Clara. I wasn’t a fan of either Amy or Rory, but I again saw the vicious hatred aimed at the young woman when it was expressed there, too. River can be a vicious, hateful sociopath, but it’s Clara who "deserves" to die because she's "too cool".

[Pattycake2]

Good episode!   I don't think I'll ever love 12 as much as I loved ten & 11, but this was good.  No need to hide out and lick his wounds over losing his companion.  24 years with River ought to take care of that.  I think River was right.  Ten and 11 wouldn't have overtly demonstrated their love for her, but after first seeing Capaldi suffer a billion deaths for Clara, we now have him tearing up over River and sharing 24 years with her.  That confirms to me that Capaldi's Doctor is a mushface.

[Dust Bunny]

I haven't watched one episode this season, since I hated "The Clara Show: featuring the Doctor" last year. But I read these comments, and I love River/Alex Kingston, so I decided to check it out.

 

Absolutely loved it. This is the show I've been missing. A great combination of heart and comedy. There was also a depth to it, and truly a sense that this was still the Doctor's story, even though River played such a central role in it.

 

I love a good companion perspective, as well as having someone able to check the Doctor's behavior and attitudes. Or in Donna's case, a partner in crime. Yet, I don't watch this show for a companion to be put on a pedestal while the Doctor is shown to be consistently "less-than" said companion.

 

Good riddance to Clara. With this special, I think I'll be back next year.

[cardigirl]

I didn't feel that way about Clara at all. In fact, I found the hatred of the young woman to be a really gross part of Who fandom. I found it gross when aimed at Rose and at Clara. I wasn’t a fan of either Amy or Rory, but I again saw the vicious hatred aimed at the young woman when it was expressed there, too. River can be a vicious, hateful sociopath, but it’s Clara who "deserves" to die because she's "too cool".

I agree, and suspect there is some jealousy involved. Every companion has had their haters, so I suspect that whoever the next companion or companions is/are will also have the detractors. It seems almost personal the amount of bile spewed towards the companions.

Edited December 28, 2015 by cardigirl

[Lokiberry]

I didn't feel that way about Clara at all. In fact, I found the hatred of the young woman to be a really gross part of Who fandom. I found it gross when aimed at Rose and at Clara. I wasn’t a fan of either Amy or Rory, but I again saw the vicious hatred aimed at the young woman when it was expressed there, too. River can be a vicious, hateful sociopath, but it’s Clara who "deserves" to die because she's "too cool".

No, Snowflake deserves to die for the two and a half seasons (or series, if you prefer) she spent telling

the Doctor to shut up, demanding that he do things her way, her constant efforts to tear him down in

order to make herself look better, and for using up two thirds of Twelve's run making it all about herself.

 

Think about it, Capaldi's probably got one series, and a Christmas special, to pull his Doctor out from

under Snowflake's shadow, and build him up into something of his own. Honestly, I feel like this episode

was the first time in TWO SERIES that he's had a chance to do that. I didn't know that he could laugh like

a giddy loon, pout like a jealous schoolboy, joke around, or be a hopelessly romantic fool UNTIL NOW.

That's unforgivable. Yes, the blame goes squarely on Moffatt's shoulders, but that doesn't mean I'm

obligated to have any use for the obession that caused the problem.

 

I don't hate Snowflake because she's a helpless young woman. I hate her because she's done

damage to a show that's I've loved for over thirty years.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Lokiberry

[Chaos Theory]

I didn't feel that way about Clara at all. In fact, I found the hatred of the young woman to be a really gross part of Who fandom. I found it gross when aimed at Rose and at Clara. I wasn’t a fan of either Amy or Rory, but I again saw the vicious hatred aimed at the young woman when it was expressed there, too. River can be a vicious, hateful sociopath, but it’s Clara who "deserves" to die because she's "too cool".

I agree. I have my favorites of course but I never understood the outright hatred of a particular companion or Doctor for that matter. I find it the worst part of the fandom. Even though I wasn't a fan of the Clara arc (at least The Clara arc chapter 2). I didn't hate the character and want her to die a death of a thousand suns.

For the record I also don't get the hate of the showrunners either.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[shandy]

Christmas specials from the UK always seem to go for diabetes-inducing whimsy, but for what it was, this was well made and I laughed politely, and Mister Gilbert from British Inbetweeners too, what a bonus.  I thought 12 was a  better foil for River's smugness than Matt Smith's doctor, who would grin inanely. 

[ganesh]

I didn't saying anything about hating Clara. In fact, her death did serve her right as Moffat said himself because she bet high on the Doctor. Much of the comments here are exactly that. It was her fault she died. I don't think most viewers felt bad about her dying, which really shouldn't be what the show was about.

The actor didn't have much in the way of character moments and was written from the start, nearly, as too cool for school. And theres plenty of commentary here alone underscoring that.

My initial comment was that we want a companion to root for, for the most part, and not one that gets in the way of the Doctor, which was largely the case with Clara. To drive hatred from that is a gross misinterpretation.

They've done good stories and created interesting companions. Do that again. It's more frustrating than anything, and it's almost like they were mostly following a formula. Let's break the mold of young professional female companion, and see if that doesn't refresh the creativity.

The bottom line is that TPTBs haven't done as well as they could have recently and expecting better is entirely reasonable. As witnessed by this episode.

[tv-talk]

Am I the only one who found this business of decapitated heads a bit creepy for a Christmas episode? That last scene where River's supposed husband was now a happy(?) 20' tall cyborg? And the other head of what was her...friend I guess, stuck in the belly of the machine? HaHaHa?

It was great to see Capaldi let loose, what a waste majority of previous 2 seasons have been. The scene where he enters the TARDIS is an all-time Who classic.

[Kromm]

I don't hate Snowflake because she's a helpless young woman. I hate her because she's done

damage to a show that's I've loved for over thirty years.

What does "damage" even mean with a show that regularly resets itself though?

 

Besides, really the person to blame isn't a character, it's the person who put the words in the character's mouth.

[Kalliste]

Catherine Tate and John Barrowman were both in their late 30s when they were cast as companions. Alex Kingston was in her mid 40s. I don't see it necessarily being a twenty something woman.

 

 

It's arguable if Barrowman was really a companion or not. He was really more of a reoccuring guest star.

I would agree. I don't really consider River or Jack to be companions regardless of their importance to the Doctor or the show. 

 

I also think that Tate/Donna is the exception to the rule of companions in the new series, she's also the only one that didn't fall in love with him and give him puppy dog eyes every 5 seconds.. the only time this changed was Clara and 12 because  eww, 12 is so old! How could young Clara ever love him. 

 

I'm excited to see who the new companion is, I'd love them to break the mold.. I really am hoping for someone from a different time, I'd also really like to see them be male.

[ratgirlagogo]

I don't "hate" Clara as a character, I just don't like her as a character.  I have no problem with the show casting good looking young people as companions - I just have serious problems with the way this particular character has been written.  I certainly don't dislike Jenna Coleman as an actress - she's just trying to do her best with a seriously difficult acting challenge.  

 

Everyone has their favorites.  I always liked Martha Jones and she definitely inspired a lot of hate - I never understood why, still don't.

 

 

really the person to blame isn't a character, it's the person who put the words in the character's mouth.

Of course.  And Moffat isn't the only writer as far as that goes.  

 

It would have been easier to accept Clara as a character if the show hadn't kept insisting that she was the Most Special Sentient Being in the History of the Universe - that's always going to be a hard sell.  I mean, she had a lot of likeable qualities, was probably intended to be like the companions of the first couple of Doctors, or even Sarah Jane - she was intelligent, resourceful, compassionate, brave, thought quickly on her feet, etc.  And then at the same time she was somehow always trying to escape any kind of life of adventure on the Tardis - which makes no sense at all.  It's as though she was suddenly supposed to be this kind of blinkered anti-intellectual like Tegan who couldn't wait to get off the damned Tardis and start being an airline hostess again.  Why?

 

And all the fighting with Twelve.  Sheesh. The show never, never convinced me that Clara would have that hard a time accepting the Doctor in his new regeneration. I never had any problem with the age difference between Clara and Twelve.  But boy howdy the SHOW certainly did and assumed that all the rest of us would as well.  So we got as I said all the Tegan-ish bitchiness which felt like it came out of nowhere and didn't make the character seem stronger or more independent - just pigheaded and dumb.

[Kromm]

I don't "hate" Clara as a character, I just don't like her as a character.  I have no problem with the show casting good looking young people as companions - I just have serious problems with the way this particular character has been written.  I certainly don't dislike Jenna Coleman as an actress - she's just trying to do her best with a seriously difficult acting challenge.  

 

Everyone has their favorites.  I always liked Martha Jones and she definitely inspired a lot of hate - I never understood why, still don't.

My issue with Martha is that they went too far in the opposite direction in an attempt to distance from Rose. They made Martha kind of boring. Oh like very Modern Companion they fell prey eventually to making her a special snowflake (the whole year long rebel leader bit).  Although I do think that story and how Martha left shows parallels to several other Companions (both before and after). If you remember, Martha left because she thought her relationship with The Doctor was unhealthy--but as opposed to how that manifested with Clara, in Martha's case there was a (unrequited) romantic subtext.  Just reinforcing I guess that these characters and their storyarcs get kind of mixy-matchy.

[Llywela]

I didn't feel that way about Clara at all. In fact, I found the hatred of the young woman to be a really gross part of Who fandom. I found it gross when aimed at Rose and at Clara. I wasn’t a fan of either Amy or Rory, but I again saw the vicious hatred aimed at the young woman when it was expressed there, too. River can be a vicious, hateful sociopath, but it’s Clara who "deserves" to die because she's "too cool".

I loathed Clara because I thought she was a horribly written character, and that horrible writing spilled over into every area of the show until it became unwatchable for me, which I resent intensely, having been a fan since the early 80s. So much of the writing for the last two seasons has revolved around propping her character up, it has dragged everything else down. A lot of shows do it - bring in a new character they desperately want the audience to love immediately, and over-write them as a result, tearing down and diminishing already established characters to make the new one look better, and it always backfires. I didn't want Clara to die, though. I just wanted her to leave.

 

For the record, I loathe River as well. I think both characters are horribly written, in a way that doesn't belong in this show.

[Cirien]

I didn't feel that way about Clara at all. In fact, I found the hatred of the young woman to be a really gross part of Who fandom. I found it gross when aimed at Rose and at Clara. I wasn’t a fan of either Amy or Rory, but I again saw the vicious hatred aimed at the young woman when it was expressed there, too. River can be a vicious, hateful sociopath, but it’s Clara who "deserves" to die because she's "too cool".

YMMV Clara deserved to die because she behaved like an idiot and though she was as smart as the Doctor. That's hubris that's pride. I liked that she played with high stakes and she was wrong to and she died which was a natural result of her arc. It worked. Her final ep left a bad taste in my mouth because of the fact it undid Heaven Sent and the ending of "face the Raven". I  would have loved for her ending to be "Last Christmas" They really parallel Donna and Clara a lot and I wanted to see Clara be brilliant on her own without a Tardis and just being an amazing teacher and taking children on the same intellectual journey to parallel the physical journey the doctor took her on. And it's not that she was too cool, it's that from her first couple of ep she was introduced as a mystery, compared with Rose who was working in retail, that already sets her up be the most special companion ever. It's not chance that has them meet ( and yes Donna I know) it's him being fascinated by her and then we find out she was spread throughout his timeline. And then she's the woman who formed him as  child. It's too much on one character.

 

And Rose became "Bad Wolf" and the Doctor had to basically sacrifice himself to save her, Donna became the "Doctor Donna" she had to be mindwiped. Clara plays with high stakes, dies because of her overconfidence, and not only does the Doctor take her from the moment just before she dies with no intention of putting her and who cares if the universe goes kabloey but she gets a tardis and companion of her own. THAT I didn't like.

My issue with Martha is that they went too far in the opposite direction in an attempt to distance from Rose. They made Martha kind of boring. Oh like very Modern Companion they fell prey eventually to making her a special snowflake (the whole year long rebel leader bit).  Although I do think that story and how Martha left shows parallels to several other Companions (both before and after). If you remember, Martha left because she thought her relationship with The Doctor was unhealthy--but as opposed to how that manifested with Clara, in Martha's case there was a (unrequited) romantic subtext.  Just reinforcing I guess that these characters and their storyarcs get kind of mixy-matchy.

 

You think we were meant to think the Doctor was in love with her? So the next companions going to be Martha esque then, in terms of a rebound? Or did the 24 years with River solve that?

Edited December 28, 2015 by Cirien

[patchwork]

It probably wouldn't work for a lot of fans but I'm more than willing to skip the introduction episodes for the next companion and just have someone who's been with Twelve for a while and they've settled into a friendly camaraderie off screen. 

 

And if that someone wasn't from 21st century London all the better. The Doctor will inevitably return to modern London and him acting as a tour guide for something that's familiar to the audience but foreign to the companion could be quite funny. 

[Ringthane]

It probably wouldn't work for a lot of fans but I'm more than willing to skip the introduction episodes for the next companion and just have someone who's been with Twelve for a while and they've settled into a friendly camaraderie off screen. 

 

And if that someone wasn't from 21st century London all the better. The Doctor will inevitably return to modern London and him acting as a tour guide for something that's familiar to the audience but foreign to the companion could be quite funny. 

 

You mean like Melanie Bush?  We never did see (onscreen) how they ended up meeting.

[Ringthane]

No, Snowflake deserves to die for the two and a half seasons (or series, if you prefer) she spent telling

the Doctor to shut up, demanding that he do things her way, her constant efforts to tear him down in

order to make herself look better, and for using up two thirds of Twelve's run making it all about herself.

 

Think about it, Capaldi's probably got one series, and a Christmas special, to pull his Doctor out from

under Snowflake's shadow, and build him up into something of his own. Honestly, I feel like this episode

was the first time in TWO SERIES that he's had a chance to do that. I didn't know that he could laugh like

a giddy loon, pout like a jealous schoolboy, joke around, or be a hopelessly romantic fool UNTIL NOW.

That's unforgivable. Yes, the blame goes squarely on Moffatt's shoulders, but that doesn't mean I'm

obligated to have any use for the obession that caused the problem.

 

I don't hate Snowflake because she's a helpless young woman. I hate her because she's done

damage to a show that's I've loved for over thirty years.

 

That's a good point.  If you just watched any Twelve story by itself, and then watched this story, you'd almost have to wonder why the lead character was so completely different in this one compared to the others.  I've seen hints of the lighter side of Twelve in other stories, but this is the first time he's just been able to be free and have fun with what was going on. 

 

I just hope people don't look back at Capaldi's run and blame him for the problems with the show, as he's certainly giving his all to the part.  Whatever damage has been done to Doctor Who, it rests securely on the head of Steven "We're just making 'Coupling in Space' here, right?" Moffat.

 

(Actually, something just occurred to me: does Clara remind anyone else of a certain character on Coupling?  Bossy, disdainful of her male companion, acts like she's superior to the rest of the universe?  Is Clara really just Susan in space?  And we all know who the character of Susan is based on.)

[benteen]

I haven't always been a fan of Capaldi's Doctor but I think Moffat is more to blame for that.  His toxic relationship with Clara really did him no favors and 12 has come across as more likeable in the two episodes where he had other companions (Ashildr and River).

[cardigirl]

No, Snowflake deserves to die for the two and a half seasons (or series, if you prefer) she spent telling

the Doctor to shut up, demanding that he do things her way, her constant efforts to tear him down in

order to make herself look better, and for using up two thirds of Twelve's run making it all about herself.

 

Disagree completely, and Donna told the Doctor to shut up plenty, so did Amy.  I think you must be watching a different show than I am. 

[cardigirl]

I loathed Clara because I thought she was a horribly written character, and that horrible writing spilled over into every area of the show until it became unwatchable for me, which I resent intensely, having been a fan since the early 80s. So much of the writing for the last two seasons has revolved around propping her character up, it has dragged everything else down. A lot of shows do it - bring in a new character they desperately want the audience to love immediately, and over-write them as a result, tearing down and diminishing already established characters to make the new one look better, and it always backfires. I didn't want Clara to die, though. I just wanted her to leave.

 

For the record, I loathe River as well. I think both characters are horribly written, in a way that doesn't belong in this show.

I'd like an example of a well-written character in your view. I've enjoyed the show since the Matt Smith run, and appreciate SOME of the episodes from previous generations.  But I don't hate anyone.  Or well, yeah, I do.  Jackie I could have completely done without.  

[Mabinogia]

The sad thing is, I feel like this is the first time we've actually gotten to see Twelve, this and the ep where he was literally the only one there. lol But seriously, this has been the Clara show featuring some old guy who used to be a great and powerful time lord for his entire run so far.

It was great to get to see more than just the whipped grandpa to the Great and Wonderful Clara. The reason he sparkled with River is because they were equals. She wasn't treating him like one of her school children who needs to be shushed and put in their place, and he wasn't treating her like the most important person in the entire universe who has to be saved no matter what the cost. It was quite refreshing. I could really love this Doctor now that he's free.

You know, until Moffett introduces the next companion who is more important than all the others. Though he's eventually going to run out of ways to top himself. My guess, the next one will somehow be the mother of the entire universe in pretty young human form.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Doctor Who Christmas Special Takes Us To The River
And the Doctor celebrates with a Song in his heart.

[Bruinsfan]

River and Jack are the exceptions because they were always intended to be larger than life, and you do need some of that in this show. You can't have that kind of character be more than recurring though. These episodes are great to just let loose every now and then each season. 

Agreed. I loved Captain Jack from the word go (the character couldn't have been made better for my tastes if that had been the intent from the start), and I came to love River thanks to Alex Kingston being awesome despite getting off to a rocky start with her. But both of them are spices that are best used in moderation—as, I think, is Missy as well. I'd be down for an adventure featuring each of them every year or two, but they don't need to be constant presences.

 

You do realise this is your interpretation of Steven Moffat's attitude, not something he's said so far? Given that he created the character of River and specified her as a woman over 40, I doubt he's got a problem with mature women.

My interpretation based on five years of evidence from Clara Oswald and Amy Pond (who I actually quite liked once I saw Karen Gillian's performance, though the text descriptions of the character prompted me to make the sign of the cross) and word that Moffat is looking to cast yet another 20-something actress who will no doubt be slim, pretty, trendily-dressed, and have some convoluted explanation as to why she's now the most important person to the Doctor in all of history.

 

It would have been easier to accept Clara as a character if the show hadn't kept insisting that she was the Most Special Sentient Being in the History of the Universe - that's always going to be a hard sell.

I realized that I well and truly loathed Clara as a character thanks to my delighted reaction to Missy informing her that in the metaphor of the couple out walking their pet, she was the one on the leash. If a character can make me root for a deranged mass murderer to put her in her place with snarky put-downs, she's pretty toxic.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Bruinsfan

[Kromm]

You think we were meant to think the Doctor was in love with her?

Where did I say that?  

 

Martha was in love with The Doctor, not the other way around. She left because she was basically romantically ignored by him. It parallels Clara in that it was an unhealthy relationship between them, albeit of a different kind, and it parallels Rose, and even the part of Amy's tenure before Rory in how they romanticized The Doctor rather than seeing him as the strange untouchable, unknowable alien he (in many ways) really is.

[cardigirl]

My interpretation based on five years of evidence from Clara Oswald and Amy Pond (who I actually quite liked once I saw Karen Gillian's performance, though the text descriptions of the character prompted me to make the sign of the cross) and word that Moffat is looking to cast yet another 20-something actress who will no doubt be slim, pretty, trendily-dressed, and have some convoluted explanation as to why she's now the most important person to the Doctor in all of history.

 

Oh I do hope so!!!!!  

[Chaos Theory]

I am not sure I ever mentioned this before but I will bring it up now: I didn't watch the show in order. I didn't have access to BBC America until the Martha Jones season so that was the first season of New Who that I watched and I thought it was awesome. I loved every aspect of it and of course wondered who this amazing Rose Tyler was who was so much better then MY Martha Jones who is actually the kinda of person who I would think of as an ideal companion for the Doctor. Then somewhere during the Donna Noble season I went back and watched the Rose Tyler episodes and was greatly disappointed. I can see how people who watched it in order might love her but someone who saw Martha Jones FIRST would see Rose as a pale comparison.

Long story long. I got to thinking. One of the big complaints has always been more of the same with a lot of the companions. Would everyone who hates Amy Pond hate Amy alone for being more of the same if she was the first companion (Forget logistics and go with it) and had the same storyline. Because it was an awesome storyline for a vast majority of the storyline and River Song has always been the kind of larger then life character that makes the show interesting and fun to watch.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[ganesh]

Donna may have told Ten to shut up now and then, but Donna had empathy, and clearly learned and grew from her time with the Doctor, while when Clara did it, it was written (or directed) that JC play it derisively, and that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. The Doctor shouldn't be revered, and I can totally buy that he does need a companion with him *sometimes*, but when the Doctor pops in and says he needs your help on some planet or whatnot, and you're all acting like you've got better things to do and he's totally up in your space, then you go right ahead. There's plenty of other people who might like to team up with the Doctor anyway.

 

When you're introducing a companion who either thinks they know everything or are the most competent person ever, then you need them to learn a lesson about how the universe is a lot bigger than you though and you still have a lot to learn. There was no room for growth for Clara from what I watched. 

[Mabinogia]

Martha was in love with The Doctor, not the other way around. She left because she was basically romantically ignored by him. It parallels Clara in that it was an unhealthy relationship between them, albeit of a different kind, and it parallels Rose, and even the part of Amy's tenure before Rory in how they romanticized The Doctor rather than seeing him as the strange untouchable, unknowable alien he (in many ways) really is.

 

I think that is one of the reasons I liked Donna so much. She made it clear from the start she was not interested in the Doctor romantically. At all! I liked that. It took a lot of pressure off. Ironically, she and Ten are the ones I ship the most because their friendship chemistry was off the charts for me. But I like that the show kept them as mates not Mates. It's just hard to sell some human chick with a limited life span and limited experience as the love of a 9000 year old alien's life. The Doctor being all gaga over Rose made me laugh, and question his taste because she was about as common as common could be. I was like, "wow, in all the universe, this is what gets your blood flowing? Damn, you need to get out more".

 

That said, since I didn't watch Clara and Eleven I never saw romance with Clara and the Doctor. My major Clara experience is with Capaldi, and that always felt more like, on his side, a father looking out for his precious child and on her side a nurse maid watching over her senile ward.

[cardigirl]

Donna may have told Ten to shut up now and then, but Donna had empathy, and clearly learned and grew from her time with the Doctor, while when Clara did it, it was written (or directed) that JC play it derisively, and that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. The Doctor shouldn't be revered, and I can totally buy that he does need a companion with him *sometimes*, but when the Doctor pops in and says he needs your help on some planet or whatnot, and you're all acting like you've got better things to do and he's totally up in your space, then you go right ahead. There's plenty of other people who might like to team up with the Doctor anyway.

 

When you're introducing a companion who either thinks they know everything or are the most competent person ever, then you need them to learn a lesson about how the universe is a lot bigger than you though and you still have a lot to learn. There was no room for growth for Clara from what I watched. 

I just NEVER saw this in Clara's character.  Competent?  If being a teacher isn't competent, I don't know.  And in 12's first series, she was definitely learning. A confident young woman, yes, that's a character to be despised.  

 

I'll agree that Clara's character did not benefit from an over arcing story line, like Amy's, or even Rose's, but I never saw her as disrespectful of the Doctor.  I loved that they brought out flash cards of things for 12's Doctor to say because in this version of the Doctor, he hadn't learned tact. 

 

Everyone brings their own experiences to any story or show, so I get that people can differ in their opinions on something, I haven't seen any evidence of what you are saying about this character.  So I guess I'll enjoy Clara, and miss her, and not miss Donna.  Or Ten.  

[polyhymnia]

That was terrible. Pointless and unfunny. Unless the point is that River is a sociopath. How Christmassy! And romantic. Does this mean this appalling Moffatt creation has gone for good? I hope so. Alex Kingston deserves better.

 

Mr. Polyhymnia hates River Song.  And not because it's Alex Kingston (he would agree she is great and that she has great acting moments) but because River has always been an awful contrivance in his opinion.  I am on-again, off-again about her.  She is one of the more memorable characters from New Who in mostly positive ways, to my mind, but there have been some awful canon/continuity things that have happened during her stories, too.  I also hate when she talks about men and women or marriages AT ALL because there is some weird, weird things that come out of her mouth.  And I am never sure if she means them or doesn't.  I also don't like that sometimes Moffatt wants us to think her a psychopath and sometimes to think her a cuddly eccentric.  She is whatever plot demands.

 

I still wouldn't say that I am a fan of the character. I have always found her annoying, and I found some of the "he doesn't love me" whining annoying in this one. Still, I enjoyed the two of them together, so I loved the episode. The saddest thing, since I don't follow shows in the press, was coming here and finding out Moffat would be back.

 

Didn't know this either until reading this thread.  Disappointed.  He gets in his own way too much.

 

I liked the episode.  I thought Capaldi was brilliant and hilarious.  And sweet.  I like River better than Clara (who I do not hate, but I think the writing for her character has been so all over the place that I was not at all sad to see her sort of go). 

[Cirien]

I just NEVER saw this in Clara's character.  Competent?  If being a teacher isn't competent, I don't know.  And in 12's first series, she was definitely learning. A confident young woman, yes, that's a character to be despised.  

 

I'll agree that Clara's character did not benefit from an over arcing story line, like Amy's, or even Rose's, but I never saw her as disrespectful of the Doctor.  I loved that they brought out flash cards of things for 12's Doctor to say because in this version of the Doctor, he hadn't learned tact. 

 

Everyone brings their own experiences to any story or show, so I get that people can differ in their opinions on something, I haven't seen any evidence of what you are saying about this character.  So I guess I'll enjoy Clara, and miss her, and not miss Donna.  Or Ten.  

YMMV I never saw where people were saying they despised her (Perhaps they despised the writing but not her per se) . And she was a teacher in her first or second year? That's a woman who's still learning. If she'd already been established as a teacher when we first saw her I wouldn't have a problem with it. And I'm sorry the flash cards were condescending. He already said he was rude in his first incarnation, and he's been rude in other incarnations. He didn't need the flashcards. He's not a child, he's a grown ass Time Lord. If she'd ( and we'd been introduced to )  introduced the cards straight after his regeneration then fine. There it would have worked. But are we really to believe that after near a year of this regeneration he still needs them. That's offensive.

 

But there's another thing to bear in mind. For many Clara's attitude ( or what many see as her more offensive moments) works with 11 because the two actors look similar in age. But when we see her with Capaldi, it triggers something in the viewer that leads us to see it as offensive. With Donna she'd lived ( and BTW speaking of her specialness of  ​course if would be her leaf story that wins the day.) She seemed older and more world weary and mature. So when she told him to shut it felt earned, But like I said YMMV.

[cardigirl]

YMMV I never saw where people were saying they despised her (Perhaps they despised the writing but not her per se) .

 

People have said quite clearly that they hated the Clara character for being too sure of herself, (too cool for school)  and too know it all.  I think a confident young woman was interesting. 

 

I'm of a certain age and was not at all offended by Clara's relationship with 12.  Donna, on the other hand, just icked me out.  Again, different tastes for sure. Donna hadn't earned anything in my opinion.  Was she seeking escape from her humdrum life and her mother bashing her choices all the time?  Yes.  But then she became Doctor Donna, the only person who could save the world.  Not sure why that doesn't make her a special snowflake, but whatever. 

 

I really am looking forward to a new companion, simply so I can read how disappointed people are in the next one.  

[Mabinogia]

When I say I hate Clara of course it means the way she's written. She's barely given much to do acting wise so it's not Jenna Coleman that sucks. She was actually pretty good as Evil Clara and her death scene, though made pointless, was well acted. And she's a very pretty young woman so I don't hate her for her looks. I hate the way she keeps changing to fit whatever Moffett's current wet dream is. She was never allowed to develop as a character IMO. And she dragged Twelve down too much. Whatever this stupid co-dependent storyline was that Moffett was going for just made watching Clara and Twelve absolutely no fun at all.

 

I think that's why I love this ep so much, I really don't like River Song who has always rubbed me the wrong way (I know it is irrational, but the second she was all "spoilers" I hated her), but at least Twelve had fun around her. There was angst, too, that scene where she talks about him not loving her, OMG his silent acting was a thing of beauty, as was hers. But they had fun, they were equals, they bantered and tried to one up each other, but as someone else said, though this ep was very much about her, I felt like the Doctor was more a part of it than he has been in quite a while. And I really enjoyed seeing so much of him. He's pretty awesome.

[Bruinsfan]

 I think a confident young woman was interesting.

I do too, when the confident young woman in question was Martha Jones, or Amy Pond, or Sally Sparrow (or, back in the day, Sarah Jane Smith, or Leela, or the largely reviled Tegan Jovanka). Clara Oswald, by contrast, has had more than two years to engage my interest and has failed miserably in every attempt.

[HauntedBathroom]

You mean like Melanie Bush?  We never did see (onscreen) how they ended up meeting.

 

And we all know how well she worked.

 

[NeenerNeener]

My problem with Clara this season is fatigue. She's just exhausting, and it was deliberate on the writers part since Ashildr notes that she and the Doctor bring out the worst in each other. It's not just subtext, it's actual dialog.  We're supposed to be ready for her to leave when she finally pushes her luck too far.

 

She's pretty much always been written as manic and/or an adrenalin junkie, at least since "The Snowmen" Christmas episode. Jumping on The Doctor's carriage and sticking her head inside. Climbing the invisible ladder into the TARDIS. But this season she's really amped it up, and the Doctor has become her keeper. He tells her in two different episodes that he has "a duty of care" for her; she seems to have died off screen at least one other time before "Face the Raven" based on the end of 2nd Zygon episode, and even Riggsy comments that something is wrong with her as she's hanging out of the TARDIS by her feet. 

 

With the exception of Amy & Rory I think I prefer the companions that stay for a year and then move on. Rose started to annoy me by the middle of her first year with 10, but I loved Martha and Donna. 

[Ringthane]

And we all know how well she worked.

 

 

Especially when one of the reasons the actress was hired was because JNT wanted the character to scream right when the end credits music started, and Bonnie Langford could hit the exact note when she screamed. 

 

To be clear, I don't hate the character of Clara because of Jenna Coleman's performance.  It's clear that she did what she could with the material.  My problem with Clara is with that material.  Moffat seems to have forgotten that the writer's creed is "show, don't tell".  He's like an inexperienced chef, throwing ingredients at the wall until something sticks, and then serving that on a plate.  The problem seems to be that there's nobody to tell him "Steven, you probably should taste that before you serve it, because it needs work."

 

Moffat's stories under RTD are some of my favorites.  It's his track as a producer that I don't like.  If you said the title of any RTD story, I could tell you what it was about, who the characters were, what happened, whatever.  There are Moffat stories I have no memory of.  I had to rewatch "The Crimson Horror" (or Tide or whatever it is) before it registered that I'd seen it before.  I watched some of his run over the weekend on BBC America, and the only way I knew what season they were from is because of the companions.  That's the mark of a poor producer.

[cardigirl]

To be clear, I don't hate the character of Clara because of Jenna Coleman's performance. It's clear that she did what she could with the material. My problem with Clara is with that material. Moffat seems to have forgotten that the writer's creed is "show, don't tell". He's like an inexperienced chef, throwing ingredients at the wall until something sticks, and then serving that on a plate. The problem seems to be that there's nobody to tell him "Steven, you probably should taste that before you serve it, because it needs work."

Except many of the episodes were not written by Moffat. Flatline, Mummy on the Orient Express I thought were fine episodes. I also love Listen, which Moffat did write.

And I'll admit it, I loved "The Caretaker." I love when the Doctor tries to blend in with regular humans.

I understand not liking a certain episode as much as another or having a preference for certain characters over the others, but as a fan of the show, I'm really surprised by the anti-Moffat sentiment or anti-Clara sentiment.

Edited December 29, 2015 by cardigirl

[AudienceofOne]

Moffatt, like most misogynists [cue screeches of outrage], thinks women don't exist outside their perception by and reaction to men. So all his female characters have no depth. They're not real people, just a reaction to the Doctor. It's why his male characters are constantly defining themselves as individuals within the text while his female characters are mere mirrors to reflect parts of the Doctor. It's why he would never write a sociopathic male character and expect the Doctor (or the audience) to think she's AMAZING. And before you say Captain Jack was a sociopath, he wasn't. And he was forced to redeem himself significantly before the Doctor accepted him. But since women aren't real people, even a murdering bigamous psychopath is supposed to be "cute". I mean, you can't expect morality from a woman anyway, right? Morality is for adult people.

 

My problem with Clara was merely that she had no personality of her own and so I never had any idea what she was going to do. But I could level that accusation at almost any other female character he's written. Why write a genuine woman when you have a plot cipher in a short skirt?

[catrox14]

Except many of the episodes were not written by Moffat. Flatline, Mummy on the Orient Express I thought were fine episodes. I also love Listen, which Moffat did write.

And I'll admit it, I loved "The Caretaker." I love when the Doctor tries to blend in with regular humans.

I understand not liking a certain episode as much as another or having a preference for certain characters over the others, but as a fan of the show, I'm really surprised by the anti-Moffat sentiment or anti-Clara sentiment.

 

Moffat is the showrunner,  He has final approval of all scripts and guides the overall direction of the season and characters, like them or not. If he didn't want it out there, it wouldn't be.

[Mabinogia]

The weird thing about Moffett is that I've loved some of the episodes he wrote. I just hate the way he runs the show (into the ground). He's a great writer, and has some fascinating ideas. I just think he lacks follow through and gets too wrapped up in his cool ideas, and without a showrunner to tell him he's getting carried away he just goes too far.

 

I'd almost like to see Clara in another show runners hands because there are some really interesting ideas there. A reckless adrenaline junky travelling around the universe and time taking unnecessary risks because the Doctor is always there to save her is interesting. The problem it was just kind of...there. Other then her finally dying....but not really because she's still recklessly travelling around the universe only now without a protector, it just seemed like this random character trait because Moffett thought it would be cool. It wasn't really dealt with. The idea of her feeling like she's the Doctors nanny because she's a school teacher, interesting idea, poorly executed.

 

Moffett is, for me, a soundbite producer. He is a kid in a sandbox playing with something we all love, and of course we're jealous (at least I am). Oh what I would give to get to play in that sandbox, and of course I think I'd do it better. lol Well, except for Blink and a few other eps which I think are sublime. But there are so many interesting ideas that Moffett has brought up that I would love to get my grubby little hands on. So it just frustrates me. I see a character like Clara and I think of what could have been. Jenna Coleman is a good actress, she's very charismatic, I think she could have handled some meatier storylines. It's what I see as missed potential that makes me hate what she was on the show so much.

 

I hate Rose more as a character (the actress didn't help) but I hate what they did with Clara more.

[AudienceofOne]

Yep, the showrunner has control of the scripts, characterisation and the direction of the show. Of course you blame the showrunner for the issues you have with the overall show.