S02.E08: Chapter Thirty

[Tara Ariano]

Mateo celebrates Christmas for the first time, but his parents are at odds concerning the holiday. Meanwhile, Jane encounters a problem with her scholarship; Rogelio distrusts his new intern; and Michael has a theory about Luisa's mother.

[natyxg]

Luisa is such a mess. They want to play it off as funny, but really she's just kinda of sad.

 

I liked the stuff about Jane being prone to having tantrums. I thought there would be some pay off, though, regarding that scene with young Alba and her husband's "CALMA" stuff would have some meaning. Nice to see that she was a nurse in Venezuela.

 

So now we're back to Michael. This half season was such a mess regarding the triangle. It's like they're going back and forth and are all over the place. I guess we will be back to Michael/Jane.... and Petra/Rafael in the next half season.

 

Poor Petra, her life really is a mess. And Magda is really cold.

[Artsda]

I enjoyed Petra opening up and telling the truth to try and help her blood pressure. Her mother is awful.

 

All the "CALM"s were hilarious, especially Rogelio's.

 

I love Michael is trying to break off and keep his space, even if it means he won't be BFF's with Rogelio. I did also love him being the one with the angel and dropping it off.I wish though this back and forth would end and Jane would just choose Michael since she wants and truly loves him and sticks with it.

 

I was not surprised and a little surprised about Michael being the one to be her knight. For sure I knew it wouldn't be Rafael, but for some reason I thought it'll be a shocker and it would be the Professor.

[natyxg]

I was not surprised and a little surprised about Michael being the one to be her knight. For sure I knew it wouldn't be Rafael, but for some reason I thought it'll be a shocker and it would be the Professor.

 

So did I.

[asha]

Sad breakups on this show: Michael + Rogelio >> all other uncouplings.

[omgsowicked]

I liked angry!Jane over fretting!Jane, for sure. I also liked Rafael acting out Jane's interpretation in therapy.

 

I'm glad someone sees that Magda needs to go. I wasn't surprised that she called the cops on Petra, since she'd said she was going to confess. I'm sure they could get rid of Magda and still have Milos as the bad influence for a while. And Petra can be bad on her own (stealing Rafael's sperm). Have her and Michael fall for each other, that'll cause some drama (and pull Michael back into things).

 

I liked Rogelio telling Xo about his anger re: being kept from Jane, and how he didn't like how she was encouraging Jane to do the same with Rafael. Alba getting her green card was another nice scene.

 

My favorite relationships on the show right now are Rogelio/Michael and Jane/Petra. LOL. I've been more moved by their "break ups" than anything going on with the actual romances lately. I'm looking forward to when they finally realize they can be one big happy alternative family (Jane/Michael, Petra/Rafael) many seasons from now (*fingers crossed*). Everything would work out that way, it's just the guys who need to get it together. More people to love Mateo and Petra's twins (and any subsequent children).

[gpgurl50]

I thought it was sweet Jane and Rogelio had a moment.  I also admit the visual gag of Jane having steam coming out of her ears really worked on me.

 

There really is no coming back for Magda though.  She was a manipulative killer who pushed grandmas down the stairs.  Still, throwing her own daughter under the bus to protect herself (while in character) is just as far over the line as she could go at this point.

 

Alba got her green card so that plot is done.

[jjj]

I liked how the "M" of Jane's C-A-L-M changed over the episode!

 

But was confused about the "scholarship" -- Rogelio clearly thought he had paid for the entire year, so where did the money for the second semester go? 

[Irlandesa]

But was confused about the "scholarship" -- Rogelio clearly thought he had paid for the entire year, so where did the money for the second semester go? 

I think the scholarship was for a year but typically tuition is paid per semester.  I wonder if he just didn't have the money.  Although I may have missed it.

 

I did like the therapy session Rafael and Jane had, especially the drunk history-i-fication of each other's point of view.  I don't know why they had to have one as soon as possible but she was better than the one they went to last season.  I don't like that Jane being the source for Wesley's article is behind hand-waved. 

 

I appreciate Rafael softening towards Petra but I'm still very much anti a Rafael/Petra reunion.  Not everything Petra did is related to trying to please Magda.  In fact, most of the issues with Rafael have been independent of her mother. 

[possibilities]

I think it was an interesting choice for the show to put forgiveness over decency and truthfulness, and to make Jane having a problem with lying be anything but a reasonable value.

[Seelouis]

I knew the green card would show up for Christmas and was prepared for massive eye-rolling at such a predictable "Christmas miracle " story. But, damn if it didn't suddenly get very dusty in here and I may have had something in my eye.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Seelouis

[Bouffe]

I really, really, REALLY enjoyed this episode. Many "awwwww!" moments, many laugh out loud moments and a few WTH? moments.

 

"It's a wonderful day to call Rogelio, Rogelio, Rogeliooooo!" - he never ceases to make me laugh. His C.A.L.M. was hilarious.

 

Angry!Jane! was awesome. While I don't mind weepy Jane, it was still a nice change from the last few episodes.

 

So Jane's professor helped her out with her writing, suggested this contest so she can make money and then "fired" Wes and gave Jane the job? I hope the writers are not going to go the romantic route for those two. A healthy, friendly relationship would be great for a change.

 

I enjoyed the therapy session between Jane and Rafael. Both of them acting the other's parts made for some fun physical comedy. It was nice to see the two of them come to the realization of what their actions did to the other.

 

Mateo is cute, cute, cute.

 

I too was surprised that the knight in Jane's romance was Michael. I don't mind the triangle stuff, I actually like it, but I was  bit disappointed it was not some random, handsome, unknown guy as the knight. 

 

Luisa is a mess.

 

Magda is a dangerous mess.

 

Petra... I liked the interactions between her and Rafael. I really hope they will remain supportive partners rather than romantically involved with each other again.

 

We finally get to see Rafael's mother again... For a second or two. I wasn't sure why they brought her back at all.

 

Luisa flirting with Michael's partner was hilarious!

 

I like that the C.A.L.M. thing originated from Mateo Sr. That was a nice touch. And yay for the green card, Alba!

[LADreamr]

I loved that Jane's M turned into Mateo. And his little face was so cute!

[DollEyes]

 

I'm looking forward to the day when they finally realize they can be one big happy alternative family (Jane/Michael, Petra/Raphael) many seasons from now (*fingers crossed*). Everything would work out that way, it's just the guys who need to get it together. More people to love Mateo and Petra's twins (and any subsequent children).

 

  I respectfully disagree. Michael's fixing the angel doesn't change that Mateo was hurt because of him. As for Petra's twins, I not only still don't believe that they're biologically Raphael's, if/when Petra finds out that they're not, I wouldn't put it past her to lie about it because she's lied to Raphael so many times before, it's second nature to her. That said, I did feel sorry for Petra when Magda framed her and had her arrested. With Magda as a mom, Petra never had a chance.  

 

Mateo is adorable. Period.

[roomtorome]

I think I am falling in love with the narrator. Is it possible to fall for just a voice? He is my absolute favorite bit on this show. And, I really love this show. It is such a breath of fresh air from all the super heroes, spies, cops, torture, etc.

If they dig of the body, forensics will easily match the wound to the hand hook. Without the body they will have a hard time convicting Petra, with body it is clear who did it. So, not sweating this story line turn.

Love Rogelio - he is such a wonderful mensch.

[Kummerspeck]

I respectfully disagree. Michael's fixing the angel doesn't change that Mateo was hurt because of him. As for Petra's twins, I not only still don't believe that they're biologically Raphael's, if/when Petra finds out that they're not, I wouldn't put it past her to lie about it because she's lied to Raphael so many times before, it's second nature to her. That said, I did feel sorry for Petra when Magda framed her and had her arrested. With Magda as a mom, Petra never had a chance.

Mateo is adorable. Period.

Yep. I think the writers are messing with us. I think they're pretending like Raphael and Petra will get back together, but when the babies are born and they are obviously Roman's, I think he'll boomerang back to Jane. And hopefully, Michael will have messed up big enough that we can get over this love triangle!

[Primetimer]

At Christmastime, Rogelio continues being God's gift to TV.

Read the story

[jjj]

Yep. I think the writers are messing with us. I think they're pretending like Raphael and Petra will get back together, but when the babies are born and they are obviously Roman's,

Who was Roman?  I thought Petra used the final sample from Raphael? 

[Kummerspeck]

Who was Roman? I thought Petra used the final sample from Raphael?

She had sex with Roman Zazo when he kidnapped her around the second week in April, then inseminated herself less than a month later. So the babies could belong to either man. And since they're twins, and Roman was a twin...

[natyxg]

She had sex with Roman Zazo when he kidnapped her around the second week in April, then inseminated herself less than a month later. So the babies could belong to either man. And since they're twins, and Roman was a twin...

 

Whoaaa. That would be a huge plot twist. Though I want them to be Raphael's so it's not so obvious that he will end up with Jane.

[omgsowicked]

  I respectfully disagree. Michael's fixing the angel doesn't change that Mateo was hurt because of him. As for Petra's twins, I not only still don't believe that they're biologically Raphael's, if/when Petra finds out that they're not, I wouldn't put it past her to lie about it because she's lied to Raphael so many times before, it's second nature to her. That said, I did feel sorry for Petra when Magda framed her and had her arrested. With Magda as a mom, Petra never had a chance.  

 

Mateo is adorable. Period.

 

I wasn't suggesting that Michael should get a win just because he fixed the angel. No, he messed up big time. I was just saying that the original pairings would allow everyone to be happy, pending the necessary apologies and therapy sessions, lol. And actually, on the other hand, if they want to go the Rafael/Jane route, then put Michael and Petra together... another potentially happy setup! Especially if Rafael's not the father like you suggest, then that could open the door for that. I'm talking in the far future, nothing right now. Point is, I'm fine with whatever, I quickly learned that this is not the show to get attached to ships. :P

[Irlandesa]

Whoaaa. That would be a huge plot twist. Though I want them to be Raphael's so it's not so obvious that he will end up with Jane.

I don't think he needs 3 kids under the age of 1. I don't even know why they're doing twins because Petra doesn't need 2 either.

[swimmyfish]

I think it was an interesting choice for the show to put forgiveness over decency and truthfulness, and to make Jane having a problem with lying be anything but a reasonable value.

I wasn't wild about that either. I think one of the things this show does very well is making sure none of its principals is truly bad, so Jane could easily have realized that Raphael's anger at Michael for Rose killing his father was certainly valid, while still being upset that he didn't trust her (Jane) enough to come to her with his feelings. And maybe they could address the fact that Raphael still has a relationship with Luisa, who's been in touch with Rose, so maybe he could understand why Jane's relationship with Michael would lead her to cut him some slack. 

 

Apart from that, I thought this was a lovely episode. I think Xo deserves more of her own storyline, but the whole Villanueva/de la Vega Christmas was so sweet. I liked Petra and Raphael bonding, and I was really disappointed that Magda turned her in. The Mutter story line. . . well, that's the sort of endless plot that isn't as interesting as the writers think, but I like that Michael is sticking around and that the investigation allows them to bring in new characters every now and then. Michael and Rogelio's thwarted reunion was so sad, but Rogelio was really great sticking up for Raphael even though he doesn't particularly like him. 

 

Maybe not the most plot-intensive chapter, but still a good episode and a nice warm way to head into the hiatus.

Edited December 16, 2015 by swimmyfish

[jjj]

She had sex with Roman Zazo when he kidnapped her around the second week in April, then inseminated herself less than a month later. So the babies could belong to either man. And since they're twins, and Roman was a twin...

Thanks, I must have been out of the room during the Roman business!  Hmmm, I'd hate for Raphael to go through a long paternity plotline.  The laws of biology preclude two babies from two fathers if the Roman incident really was a month earlier.  I'd kind of like Mateo to have siblings. 

[Irlandesa]

I think it was an interesting choice for the show to put forgiveness over decency and truthfulness, and to make Jane having a problem with lying be anything but a reasonable value.

I don't think the show did that at all.  No one in Jane's immediate family pushed back on her being mad at Rafael for lying.  Rogelio only pushed back when it looked like Jane might consider punishing Rafael through Mateo.  (Which is something she did last season too.)  It's not like she is back romantically with him or dating him.  They aren't back to where they were when she found out. Even if they're in a better place, he is facing the consequences of not telling her the truth.   What they did do was get to a place where they understand what motivated each other and they're back to a better place to co-parent. 

 

I liked it because it led to Rogelio and Jane both talking about how Xo keeping them apart hurt them.  It also led to Rafael being more willing to forgive/understand Petra. 

 

 And maybe they could address the fact that Raphael still has a relationship with Luisa, who's been in touch with Rose, so maybe he could understand why Jane's relationship with Michael would lead her to cut him some slack. 

Rafael did walk out on Luisa once she admitted she was in contact with Rose.  (Although I do think a lifelong sibling relationship is vastly different from a two year relationship.) And I do think he understands why Jane would cut Michael some slack.  But just because Jane is willing to do that for Michael doesn't mean he has to do the same.  Michael wouldn't for him.  Rafael doesn't have to adopt Jane's POV towards Michael just because they share a child.

[Tara Ariano]

Mateo's cuteness really is off the charts. He's even cuter when his grandgelio calls him "Matelio."

[AnnaRose]

I don't think the show did that at all.  No one in Jane's immediate family pushed back on her being mad at Rafael for lying.  Rogelio only pushed back when it looked like Jane might consider punishing Rafael through Mateo.  (Which is something she did last season too.)  It's not like she is back romantically with him or dating him.  They aren't back to where they were when she found out. Even if they're in a better place, he is facing the consequences of not telling her the truth.   What they did do was get to a place where they understand what motivated each other and they're back to a better place to co-parent. 

 

I liked it because it led to Rogelio and Jane both talking about how Xo keeping them apart hurt them.  It also led to Rafael being more willing to forgive/understand Petra. 

 

Rafael did walk out on Luisa once she admitted she was in contact with Rose.  (Although I do think a lifelong sibling relationship is vastly different from a two year relationship.) And I do think he understands why Jane would cut Michael some slack.  But just because Jane is willing to do that for Michael doesn't mean he has to do the same.  Michael wouldn't for him.  Rafael doesn't have to adopt Jane's POV towards Michael just because they share a child.

 

Of course Jane is up on her high horse and so angry (steam coming out of her ears!) at Raphael for not telling her that he had someone else report what Michael did... but she never told Raphael about it (he overheard it on the baby monitor) and it could have just as easily been the other way around if the monitor was off, and then six months later Raph finds out Jane had been lying/keeping that from him.  Afterall, Michael did let the mole getaway who was working for the woman that killed Raphael's father and kidnapped Mateo.   But Jane is such an incredibly self-righteous character... when she lies or withholds the truth, it's a totally different story.  I'm sure she failed to see the irony in the situation.

 

Jane is actually my least favorite character in this show by far, other than perhaps Magda, which is pretty sad.  At least her lip quivering was thankfully kept to a minimum this episode. 

 

Pretty much everything else was great, though.   Rogellio is always entertaining.  I like that he brought up the fact that Xo kept Jane from him all those years.  And bonus points for bringing it up in a way that was actually helpful for a current situation.  

 

It sucks that Magda turned in Petra, but as long as they find the body with the wound from the hook it shouldn't stick.  And yay, Alba got her green card.   I'm glad that storyline is resolved.

 

All in all, a good way to go into the winter hiatus.

[Kummerspeck]

But Jane is such an incredibly self-righteous character... when she lies or withholds the truth, it's a totally different story. I'm sure she failed to see the irony in the situation.

Jane is actually my least favorite character in this show by far, other than perhaps Magda, which is pretty sad. At least her lip quivering was thankfully kept to a minimum this episode.

Yes! This forever. Jane drives me up the walls with her constant temper tantrums and poor communication. I thought maybe it was pregnancy/breastfeeding hormones making hera little crazy, but that just seems to be her personality.

[possibilities]

Jane's family may not have called her on objecting to lying, but the therapist said: Jane should explore why lying is such a trigger for her. To me, that implies that lying itself is not a problem, it's only a problem because Jane's "so triggered" by it. They could have gotten to the same place of mutual understanding without having the therapist use the idea that being upset by lying is a dysfunctional response. It wouldn't get Jane off the hook for her own lying, either.

[tennisgurl]

No, Petra! Magda really is the worst. She needs to get more just desserts than just some minor jail time and a hook for a hand. 

 

I am actually really glad they touched on Xo having kept Rogelio and Jane apart, and how, even thought they have forgiven Xo, they are still mad and rather sad about all the years they could have had together. The plotlines move so fast on this show, its nice when they stop for a second and let the characters just have feelings and connect with each other. 

 

Awwwww Alba and her greencard! And her CALM came from Meteo senior! That was so sweet. 

[Irlandesa]

Jane's family may not have called her on objecting to lying, but the therapist said: Jane should explore why lying is such a trigger for her. To me, that implies that lying itself is not a problem, it's only a problem because Jane's "so triggered" by it. They could have gotten to the same place of mutual understanding without having the therapist use the idea that being upset by lying is a dysfunctional response. It wouldn't get Jane off the hook for her own lying, either.

I didn't see judgment in that question.  

 

I think the therapist asked the question  because she had just listened to a story where Jane was really obsessed with the word "liar." Jane also seemed more bothered by lying than the fact that a woman associated with the kidnapping of her child was let go.  "Trigger" is such a specific word.  I think she understands that Jane was upset but wanted to explore why Jane reacted the way she did. 

 

We also didn't get to see the full therapy session.  For all we know, she could have asked Rafael why he went as far as he did to protect the concept of a nuclear family.  But the episode didn't want to explore that.  It was more interested in examining the lie of Jane's paternity. 

 

Which brings me to the real reason the question was asked--it was a segue, plain and simple.

[Nanrad]

Didn't Rogelio tell Xo to get an abortion? I'm not saying she is completely faultless for not coming forward at all, but "keeping them from each other" doesn't accurately describe that situation. Most people would take that as an implication that the other person doesn't want to be involved, even if that is wrong, Xo was young and scared. Rogelio knew about Jane, but his answer was what made Xo wait so long about telling Rogelio about their daughter.

 

  I respectfully disagree. Michael's fixing the angel doesn't change that Mateo was hurt because of him. As for Petra's twins, I not only still don't believe that they're biologically Raphael's, if/when Petra finds out that they're not, I wouldn't put it past her to lie about it because she's lied to Raphael so many times before, it's second nature to her. That said, I did feel sorry for Petra when Magda framed her and had her arrested. With Magda as a mom, Petra never had a chance.  

 

Mateo is adorable. Period.

Michael fixing the situation does nothing to change that his actions are what led to getting Mateo hurt, but there is one thing the show never touches on. I can't remember when it started happening, but Rafael is hostile to Michael himself. This is not excusing his actions, because he should be able to better control his actions, but Michael didn't make that sudden leap and it was also the correct assumption as well. Even though I didn't want a wrench to be thrown in my ship, I knew something was going go happen, and I agreed with it. But, do I think it's unnecessarily unforgivable? No. (Or it depends on the person) I think Rafael was somewhat upset that Nadine was let go, but I honestly think this was about putting distance between Jane and Michael, so he can have his family, which he has been so obsessed with. 

[Irlandesa]

Didn't Rogelio tell Xo to get an abortion? I'm not saying she is completely faultless for not coming forward at all, but "keeping them from each other" doesn't accurately describe that situation. Most people would take that as an implication that the other person doesn't want to be involved, even if that is wrong, Xo was young and scared. Rogelio knew about Jane, but his answer was what made Xo wait so long about telling Rogelio about their daughter.

I don't remember the details.  We learned that so much of what Xo told Jane and Alba about Rogelio was a lie that I don't remember what was the truth any longer.  But they were teenagers.  Even if Rogelio felt like an abortion was the best option (as Alba did) doesn't mean that he wouldn't or couldn't have stepped up once the baby was born.  At the very least, Jane deserved the opportunity to know her father.  Rogelio didn't know Jane was born whether or not he ever knew about the pregnancy. 

 I can't remember when it started happening, but Rafael is hostile to Michael himself. This is not excusing his actions, because he should be able to better control his actions, but Michael didn't make that sudden leap and it was also the correct assumption as well.

Rafael is hostile to Michael because Michael has been hostile to him.  Michael has resented Rafael ever since he found out Jane was having a child with Rafael.  And it got even worse once Jane left him and got together with Rafael.  He started lurking around and trying to catch Rafael in illegal activities and made some rather giant leaps about Rafael's culpability. He broke into his office...etc.  Ironically, the only reason he discovered some of the evidence he did was because he already assumed Rafael was guilty. 

 

Michael didn't become suspicious of Rafael because Rafael is hostile to him.  He has always been suspicious of Rafael because he had the audacity to inseminate Michael's girlfriend/fiancee.  That was his uterus, man! (Joking--only partially)

Edited December 17, 2015 by Irlandesa

[DollEyes]

ITA, Irlandesa. Michael has not only resented Raphael from the start, he has let his resentment of Raphael cloud his judgment several times, including the one that hurt Mateo.  Just because Jane's nice to Michael, that doesn't mean that Raphael has to be.

 

  Jane & Raphael's therapy session touched on some long-avoided problems on both sides, whether it was Jane's sensitivity about lying, despite her own willingness to do it on occasion, or Raphael's keeping secrets from Jane, no matter the reasons. Raphael's lying was bad, but Jane's being in cahoots with one of the people involved in covering up Mateo's kidnapping, who was also covering for Nadine, who worked for Sin Rostro, who was also Pa Solano's killer, was worse.

[truebluesmoky]

The lying thing is so frustrating to me, because if it's really a deal breaker for Jane, she never should have gotten back together with Michael after all the crap he pulled when she was first pregnant. He may do sweet things and be there for her in swoon-worthy ways, but he's consistently been sneaky and dishonest.

[Nanrad]

I don't remember the details.  We learned that so much of what Xo told Jane and Alba about Rogelio was a lie that I don't remember what was the truth any longer.  But they were teenagers.  Even if Rogelio felt like an abortion was the best option (as Alba did) doesn't mean that he wouldn't or couldn't have stepped up once the baby was born.  At the very least, Jane deserved the opportunity to know her father.  Rogelio didn't know Jane was born whether or not he ever knew about the pregnancy. 

====

Rafael is hostile to Michael because Michael has been hostile to him.  Michael has resented Rafael ever since he found out Jane was having a child with Rafael.  And it got even worse once Jane left him and got together with Rafael.  He started lurking around and trying to catch Rafael in illegal activities and made some rather giant leaps about Rafael's culpability. He broke into his office...etc.  Ironically, the only reason he discovered some of the evidence he did was because he already assumed Rafael was guilty. 

 

Michael didn't become suspicious of Rafael because Rafael is hostile to him.  He has always been suspicious of Rafael because he had the audacity to inseminate Michael's girlfriend/fiancee.  That was his uterus, man! (Joking--only partially)

My point was more about the mindset of a teenager. Some would've felt the best option would have been to tell the father and the others would've been afraid to come forward after they were told to get an abortion (which Rogelio admitted to). Just like they are many men who would step up despite not wanting the kid, like Rafael, there are many who would be hostile and not involved in the kid's life. I'm not saying it was the right decision, I'm saying it was understandable at the time. Now the fact that she waited so long is that point that I'm critical about.

 

I know why Michael became hostile to Rafael, but I feel there were other points in the series where Rafael was hostile not because of how Michael treated him, but rather, because Michael was still interested in Jane. Whenever Rafael has known that Michael and Jane are bonding about something, he's pouty and simmers in his feelings. That's not about Michael's hostility, it's about the fact that he's jealous because Michael still has a chance. Michael broke the law, point blank, but I feel it's like what another poster said: we feel certain ways about it depending on how we feel about a person. If this had been Nadine's show and Michael let her go, we'd be happy; if he kept her, even though it was the right thing, some would be disappointed. Nadine wasn't a most twirling villain, she was a cop caught in a bad spot, thus compromised. If anyone had been in Nadine's spot, they'd done the same thing and because of that, Michael took pity on her and let her go because she was a good person.

 

Now all of this is to say: IF Rafael felt it was the right thing to tell on Michael, he should've been honest about it rather than being sneaky about it (what Michael is criticized for). Instead, he tracked down Nadine's friend, told her what happened, got Michael in trouble to cause friction between him and Jane NOT because Michael was still pursuing him, which he wasn't at the moment and hadn't been after he definitively ruled out that Rafael wasn't involved, and then pretended that he wasn't involved. After that, he made Jane feel bad about not believing him and made it seem as if Michael still had a bloodlust about blaming him for all things bad. Even if it was a little bit about what he cried about in therapy, it was mostly about Jane. He didn't want to get his hands dirty and look bad, but he could've told her exactly what he did in therapy and if she was still stuck on Michael, he could've walked away from the idea of them being together. If Michael was still hostile to him, why ask for the advice regarding getting in good with Jane and asserting himself??? Rafael's anger has recently been about Michael not leaving him and Jane to be a family.

[AnnaRose]

The lying thing is so frustrating to me, because if it's really a deal breaker for Jane, she never should have gotten back together with Michael after all the crap he pulled when she was first pregnant. He may do sweet things and be there for her in swoon-worthy ways, but he's consistently been sneaky and dishonest.

 

Yes, but she had that magical, drunken kiss with Michael after which she was literally walking on air.  {Insert eye roll here.}

[calliope1975]

Telenovela or not, this forever back and forth between Michael and Rafael might make me quit. There are tons of over the top dramatic plots to explore without the love triangle, which has lasted way past entertaining and is now firmly entrenched in annoying and off-putting.

[Tara Ariano]

Didn't Rogelio tell Xo to get an abortion?

 

I feel like I would remember that because it would have changed my very positive opinion of him. I know that ALBA told Xo to get an abortion because it confirmed my generally negative opinion of her.

 

I want to say Rogelio never knew Xiomara was pregnant but I wouldn't swear to it/may just want that to be true.

[Kummerspeck]

Yes, but she had that magical, drunken kiss with Michael after which she was literally walking on air. {Insert eye roll here.}

Hahaja I totally laughed about that. They had their first kiss when she was wasted, they broke up while she was pregnant and sober, then they almost got back together when they made out while she was super drunk again!

Lay off the booze, Jane and Raf! Clearly neither of you can handle yourselves!

Edited December 17, 2015 by Kummerspeck

[Tara Ariano]

Yep, he told her to "get an abortion. And a perm. But the abortion was the way worse part!"--Easter episode, Rogelio to his mother

 

[sobbing]

[Irlandesa]

I know why Michael became hostile to Rafael, but I feel there were other points in the series where Rafael was hostile not because of how Michael treated him, but rather, because Michael was still interested in Jane.

 

 

Except Michael's interest in Jane and how Michael treated Rafael are essentially one and the same.  One begat the other and it's what signaled to Rafael they were in a pissing match.  Now, don't get me wrong, Rafael participated.  He did not back down in the face-to-face stuff.  But what had Rafael done to Michael in the past that legitimized Michael's suspicion?  I can't think of anything.  He definitely didn't like Michael and was sometimes jealous but this was the first time I recall Rafael doing anything significant to Michael.

 

If anyone had been in Nadine's spot, they'd done the same thing and because of that, Michael took pity on her and let her go because she was a good person.

I'm going to disagree with this.  Nadine had friends.  She has options.  She had resources.  Letting her go enabled a criminal operation. 

 

Now all of this is to say: IF Rafael felt it was the right thing to tell on Michael, he should've been honest about it rather than being sneaky about it (what Michael is criticized for).

Oh yeah.  Totes.  He should have walked down to the police station and told them what he overheard. 

 

Even if it was a little bit about what he cried about in therapy, it was mostly about Jane. He didn't want to get his hands dirty and look bad, but he could've told her exactly what he did in therapy and if she was still stuck on Michael, he could've walked away from the idea of them being together.

I will say that something that confuses me (and this is the show, not you) is that telling on Michael would cause friction between Jane and Michael.  Even if Michael lost his job (which he didn't), I don't see Jane breaking up with him over that...not if she already approves of the illegal activity.  Michael's reaction is what caused the friction.

 

I think Rafael deciding what to do was about Jane but not in the way you see it.  Sure, perhaps the only reason Rafael told on Michael was because of what he overheard Jane tell her mother.  (Or maybe it was already in motion, who knows?)  But on the other side of the coin, the only reason he didn't go tell on Michael immediately was because of Jane.  If Jane weren't a factor, I don't think he would have hesitated as soon as he heard what he did.

 

 

If Michael was still hostile to him, why ask for the advice regarding getting in good with Jane and asserting himself???

Because both of these guys are presented by the show as decent guys.  They both believe themselves to be good guys even if they don't think that of the other. So they've tried to get along for Jane's sake. Given the choice of being civil/nice and a jerk for no reason, they've mostly chosen the nice route.  For instance, Michael giving the advice, Rafael telling Jane who gave him the advice, Michael suggesting Petra threw away the note (I'm pretty sure he did this) and Rafael booking a yodeling group to assist Michael's investigation.  Yet the evidence of tension was still there with Rafael pointing out why Jane wouldn't eat Mac and Cheese and with Michael giving Rafael grief for never having seen The Sound of Music.

 

Thanks for those details Kummerspeck.  I'm not as into Rogelio as others so I don't always pay close attention to his scenes but I legitimately thought he was clueless. 

Edited December 18, 2015 by Irlandesa

[Nanrad]

Except Michael's interest in Jane and how Michael treated Rafael are essentially one and the same.  One begat the other and it's what signaled to Rafael they were in a pissing match.  Now, don't get me wrong, Rafael participated.  He did not back down in the face-to-face stuff.  But what had Rafael done to Michael in the past that legitimized Michael's suspicion?  I can't think of anything.  He definitely didn't like Michael and was sometimes jealous but this was the first time I recall Rafael doing anything significant to Michael.

 

I'm going to disagree with this.  Nadine had friends.  She has options.  She had resources.  Letting her go enabled a criminal operation. 

 

Oh yeah.  Totes.  He should have walked down to the police station and told them what he overheard. 

 

I will say that something that confuses me (and this is the show, not you) is that telling on Michael would cause friction between Jane and Michael.  Even if Michael lost his job (which he didn't), I don't see Jane breaking up with him over that...not if she already approves of the illegal activity.  Michael's reaction is what caused the friction.

 

I think Rafael deciding what to do was about Jane but not in the way you see it.  Sure, perhaps the only reason Rafael told on Michael was because of what he overheard Jane tell her mother.  (Or maybe it was already in motion, who knows?)  But on the other side of the coin, the only reason he didn't go tell on Michael immediately was because of Jane.  If Jane weren't a factor, I don't think he would have hesitated as soon as he heard what he did.

 

 

Because both of these guys are presented by the show as decent guys.  They both believe themselves to be good guys even if they don't think that of the other. So they've tried to get along for Jane's sake. Given the choice of being civil/nice and a jerk for no reason, they've mostly chosen the nice route.  For instance, Michael giving the advice, Rafael telling Jane who gave him the advice, Michael suggesting Petra threw away the note (I'm pretty sure he did this) and Rafael booking a yodeling group to assist Michael's investigation.  Yet the evidence of tension was still there with Rafael pointing out why Jane wouldn't eat Mac and Cheese and with Michael giving Rafael grief for never having seen The Sound of Music.

 

Thanks for those details Kummerspeck.  I'm not as into Rogelio as others so I don't always pay close attention to his scenes but I legitimately thought he was clueless. 

Honestly, I'm not condoning Michael's behavior, but even when Michael minded his own business, Rafael was still hostile. I can get the tit for tat when Michael is/was being an ass, but I don't understand it when Michael cooled down on the behavior and Rafael was simply being jealous. Michael backed out of the pissing match, but Rafael continued. My point in bringing this up is due to Rafael (and others) bringing up Michael's hostility to him. Yes, it happened, but Michael stopped, so even if Rafael had a reason to do it before, he continued on his own free will due to his obsession with having his own family unit with his kid's bio mom.

 

Honestly, we don't know what exactly Rose had on Nadine to say she had options. Rose operates in subtle manners, but I don't think she'd hesitate to make a big statement if need be. Also, I believe her targets a carefully chosen before she actually acts.

 

Do you mean Jane and Rafael or was it really Jane and Michael? Does Michael do illegal things? Yes, like his illegal search of Rafael's stuff, which I disagree of. But, overall, most of what Michael does is really about getting the job done. Because once Michael definitely ruled out Rafael, he begrudgingly let it go, but it was still let go. Now, for Rafael's concerns, I think he intentionally told the cops he did to not have be directly involved and to provoke Michael. Even if Michael did get in trouble/fired, so what? Jane might have gotten mad, but it doesn't get rid of Michael. When Rafael was found out he said, "I was doing what you told me: protecting my family." The only way to definitely to do that was to get Michael to go berserk at him. Now, he didn't plan for Mateo to get hurt, but he knew Michael suspect him, flip out, and then he'd pretend ignorance and Jane would make a drastic decision. Michael is responsible for his own actions, but I believe that is why he did all of that tiptoeing. 

 

It's one thing to have an issue with someone and another to actively try to get rid of a person because they "have it out for you." That's what Rafael said. That was true once, but after Michael stopped pursuing Rafael last season, he hasn't attempted to pin anything on Rafael...to his dismay. So what Rafael said was dishonest as well as manipulative. Jane and no one would accept his scheming due to "I don't like him," but we can understand wanting to get rid of a person trying to falsely arrest you.  So, overall they may be and/or see themselves as good guys, but Rafael overplayed his hand "all in the name of family."

[Irlandesa]

Michael backed out of the pissing match, but Rafael continued.

When did Michael back out of the pissing match?  I disagree that he ever did.  Sure, he wasn't trying to pin criminal activities Rafael had no part of on him but all that did was essentially bring him from a boil to the same simmering point that Rafael is/was at.  The Sound of Music remark was not simply being an asshole.  It was a symptom that Michael continued to have issues with Rafael. It's why he was so keyed up and got violent.  His simmering pot boiled over again. The only difference from now and before is that his supsicions about Rafael were right this time.

 

Honestly, we don't know what exactly Rose had on Nadine to say she had options.

I'm more prepared to say she had options than I am to say she's a good person. Nadine was a cop.  She could have confided in her best friend/partner and gone undercover. 

 

The only way to definitely to do that was to get Michael to go berserk at him.

I can see your thought process but if this is the show's intent, they're asking me to make a leap I can't make.  Michael didn't have a history of getting violent or even going beserk so for Rafael to create a plan predicated on that kind of behavior is such a huge stretch.  Now if he were to do things that looked suspicious in front of Michael knowing that Michael would jump to the wrong conclusions about him and break the law to try to get evidence against him?  Now that is a plan because it's based on actual history.

[Gardencrown]

 

"It's a wonderful day to call Rogelio, Rogelio, Rogeliooooo!" - he never ceases to make me laugh. His C.A.L.M. was hilarious.

Oh yes, this!!! No matter how frustrated I might get with other aspects of the show (Magda, I'm looking at you!), the character of Rogelio is just so so awesome. IMO, it's a brilliant collaboration between writers/actor in that he is such a caricature in so many ways, but right as they push him to the edge of that, they rein him in and make him completely and fallibly human. His love for Jane in creating the scholarship, his joy in his daughter and grandson, even his bromance with Michael -- those things make him real. Even as he plants a story about a torrid affair with Charo! (Where is she, btw? How awesome would it be for her to make a guest appearance?! She hasn't already, has she?)

 

I like the idea that Petra's twins could be Roman's, but as a mother of twins I will have to fan wank that a bit, as ultrasounds with twins are frequent and awfully accurate about conception time. Maybe in JtV world, not as much time as I felt passed between Petra sleeping with Roman (or his brother) and inseminating herself?

 

I admit -- I cried when Alba got her green card. I have loved this actress through many shows, and I think this is her best work ever. I don't care that it was corny -- it's Christmas -- bring on the corny!!

[Gin and Tonic]

Here's my problem with the current love triangle/break up/lying/letting Nadine go ridiculousness:

 

I can see the puppet strings. Nothing about the triangle at this point feels like it happened organically. Of course Michael was going to do something that required a breakup with Jane. It was only the fifth episode of the season. Can't make a decision that early, gotta keep the triangle going. The surprise reveal at the end of Season 1 that Michael bugged Nadine's phone at let her go on purpose? We have to undo that almost immediately so it can play a role in the breakup. Gotta keep the triangle going.

 

And of course Jane was going to bounce back to Rafael. And of course it was going to end just as badly. Can't have Rafael forthrightly come forward and say what he overheard. He has to do in an underhanded way, so Jane will reject him. Gotta keep that triangle going.

 

Rafael and Michael are just (at least when it comes to the triangle) little marionettes marching to the writers' beat of gotta keep that triangle going. It doesn't feel real and I don't feel like I'm watching characters with genuine motivations.

 

I also cannot muster up a single iota of energy to be bothered that Michael let Nadine go again. I just don't care. The show only did it to provide the impetus for the breakup. I don't think the writers care about any real world implications of letting a suspect go any more than they care about the real world implications of Rafael paying someone to commit a crime.

 

My other problem? I feel like I was cheated out of an awesome webseries where Michael and Rogelio get coffee at Michael's favorite coffee spot.

[Nanrad]

When did Michael back out of the pissing match?  I disagree that he ever did.  Sure, he wasn't trying to pin criminal activities Rafael had no part of on him but all that did was essentially bring him from a boil to the same simmering point that Rafael is/was at.  The Sound of Music remark was not simply being an asshole.  It was a symptom that Michael continued to have issues with Rafael. It's why he was so keyed up and got violent.  His simmering pot boiled over again. The only difference from now and before is that his supsicions about Rafael were right this time.

 

I'm more prepared to say she had options than I am to say she's a good person. Nadine was a cop.  She could have confided in her best friend/partner and gone undercover. 

 

I can see your thought process but if this is the show's intent, they're asking me to make a leap I can't make.  Michael didn't have a history of getting violent or even going beserk so for Rafael to create a plan predicated on that kind of behavior is such a huge stretch.  Now if he were to do things that looked suspicious in front of Michael knowing that Michael would jump to the wrong conclusions about him and break the law to try to get evidence against him?  Now that is a plan because it's based on actual history.

You're right, I misspoke about the pissing match. I guess my position is that I can understand Michael's frustration and issue with Rafael than I can sympathize with Rafael. Michael does not own and is not entitled to Jane point blank period, but he was with Jane for two years, engaged to her, and they had mapped out a life together, which came crumbling apart due to an unwanted procedure performed on his fiancee. He responded terribly, but besides the generic "be supportive" how does one respond in that situation. I say this to say, what I get from Rafael is entitlement. Since Jane had a kid with him, in his eyes, they're supposed to be together and raise Mateo, which is something he definitely postures about when he indulges in the pissing match himself. It's nothing about him and Jane just getting one another and vibing, it's "we have a kid together, so we belong together." And Michael could see that a piece of Jane believes/wants that even though she does love him, but when all is said and done, Michael also realizes that Rafael doesn't know Jane. There are remarks that Rafael hasn't known Jane two years like Michael, but knowing someone two years doesn't guarantee that you'll know and/or understand someone better. So Michael does indulge in petty behavior regarding what Rafael does and doesn't know about Jane because Rafael uses Mateo as a trump card rather than knowing shit about Jane. Whether you're together 2 months or two years, when you're really into someone, you find out about the things they love and Jane seems to love the Sound of Music from the way Michael was gloating just like he does with the other stuff. 

 

I love the X-Files and Kanye West, if someone I was dating for 5 months didn't know this, I could see why an ex would gloat because I talk about either when I have the chance. lol.

 

Cops are also human and make difficult decisions. So as of now, this is Schrodingers options. Admittedly, she steered away/obstructed justice, but at the same time, I don't see her actions as malicious or even unsympathetic. Maybe she had options or maybe she felt like she didn't, but at the same time, Michael felt he could confide in Nadine and looked what happened.

 

Berserk as in verbally aggressive not as in violent. Michael has been known to do that and I do believe that Rafael intentionally planned for Michael to get verbally aggressive rather than violent. Again, there is no reason for Rafael not to tell the flat out truth if he wanted Michael to be punished by the law for letting Nadine go. Would Jane get upset, sure? But, Rafael could've easily had his outburst about his father with the same effect that he did in therapy. So...why the secretive, manipulative behavior? Why the lying for six months? Why pay someone to lie? Rafael is also known to scheme as well when he wants someone done, so it's not a stretch. I just don't think he planned on violence, but he did plan on getting rid of Michael for good.

 

ETA: Why would he pretend and keep it a secret that he heard about the kiss and Nadine TWICE. Once you can understand, but twice...I find that hard to believe. He never came forward about knowing and only admitted it when caught, and then tried to blame it on Jane for liking to talk around the baby monitor as an excuse. He didn't bring this to either Jane or Michael, but schemed instead. And actually sought out Nadine's friend and told him to lie about how he found out the information. 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Nanrad

[Irlandesa]

He responded terribly, but besides the generic "be supportive" how does one respond in that situation.

There's "not loving the idea" and then there's "hiding evidence pointing to a potential murder suspect because implicating her might mess up her marriage which might mess up a Rafael's baby-free life he envisioned."  I think a legitimate argument could be made that they both feel entitled. Or the one.  Or right for her. 

 

Michael also realizes that Rafael doesn't know Jane.

Of course Michael thinks he knows more about Jane than Rafael.  He thinks he knows more about Jane than Jane. (Not that I agree that Rafael knows nothing about her. ETA which I just saw you clarified in the other thread. )

 

Michael has been known to do that and I do believe that Rafael intentionally planned for Michael to get verbally aggressive rather than violent.

I'm gonna need the show to point that out to me before I even consider taking it as canon and even then....I'll have a hard time.  When did Michael get verbally violent on Rafael?

Edited December 20, 2015 by Irlandesa

[Lokiberry]

 

I say this to say, what I get from Rafael is entitlement. Since Jane had a kid with him, in his eyes, they're supposed to be together and raise Mateo

Yeah, I think that's what's always bugged me about Rafael. He's always come across as entitled, not just to having access to Mateo (and he is definitely entitled to that), but to having himself, Jane and Mateo be the perfect little family that he always dreamed about. Back in early season 1, I didn't like Micheal because of all the lying and sneaking around, and that came from his belief that he was entitled to marry Jane and have the life they planned, even though her circumstances had changed. After she dumped him because of his actions, he started to lose that entitlement, and realize Jane doesn't, and never will, belong to him. Rafael also needs this kind of come to Jesus moment.

 

Only when all three of them grow up (especially Jane, because this ping-ponging back and forth between two guys, and declaring which ever one she's fixated on at the moment is the one she "always" wanted, is the behavior of a teenage girl, not a grown-ass woman) can they hash out their complicated relationship, and determine if any of them have a future as a romantic couple.

 

On a side note: I'm also starting to think those twins aren't Rafael's. Petra never gets what she wants, and if Jane/Rafael is endgame, then Petra/Michael might be too, and I think that works out better if he doesn't end up still raising Rafael's spawn even though he's not with Jane.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Lokiberry

[Eucrid]

Yeah, I think that's what's always bugged me about Rafael. He's always come across as entitled, not just to having access to Mateo (and he is definitely entitled to that), but to having himself, Jane and Mateo be the perfect little family that he always dreamed about. Back in early season 1, I didn't like Micheal because of all the lying and sneaking around, and that came from his belief that he was entitled to marry Jane and have the life they planned, even though her circumstances had changed. After she dumped him because of his actions, he started to lose that entitlement, and realize Jane doesn't, and never will, belong to him. Rafael also needs this kind of come to Jesus moment.

 

Yep Rafael thinks he's entitled to whatever he wants, whether its Jane or anything else. He thinks he can buy Jane and Matteo and when that doesn't work he thinks he can use lawyers to sue for custody. At no point to me does it ever seem like he loves Jane for Jane. More that he's simply in love with the idea of having this perfect little family unit. A similar idea he had with Petra originally and he was happy to throw her overboard at the first sign of Jane offering him what he wanted.