S14.E15: Season 14 Reunion

[Kromm]

Thumbs up on all of slothgirl's post.

 

I'd also add that while Candice was definitely annoying and maybe at some points even cutting to Ashley, I got the sense Ashley was no different in receiving that attitude than several others.

 

But even if Candice WAS especially dismissive of Ashley, what I didn't see was any real proof that the schoolyard pick and the little "who should go home" stunt was any kind of organized plot between the rest of the girls and Candice against Ashley. Or even if it were, that it had any motives beyond the obvious (sticking by the people they'd bonded with and ditching the one left over).

[millennium]

 

For someone who seems so camera-ready, I'm surprised Candice didn't realize how bad not choosing Ashley would look and that it would be used against her. 

 

Ashley's special status seems to have been a liability for the rest of the designers this season.   Don't pick Ashley and you look bad.  Criticize Ashley and you look bad.   Fail to coddle Ashley and you look bad.   Make Ashley cry and you look really bad.    On top of that, you have a panel of judges predisposed to hand Ashley first place and willing to cut down your work to make hers look better.   Then you're expected to stand by and smile as she wins the whole thing.   And if you dare complain about the  unfairness of it all, you'll be labeled a sore loser and lambasted in social media. 

 

This on top of all the regular pressure of competing on Project Runway.

[film noire]

 

 

Except that Kelly was using that as a reason to send her home AFTER the challenge was over. Therefore what Ashley did in a previous challenge with a different partner was irrelevant to the dynamic of the paintball team Kelly was on.

 

It's not irrelevant at all -- it's information about what kind of framing Kelly used to justify her bullshit decision -- Ashley had demonstrated an ability to win in different situations, while at that point, all  Kelly had shown was the ability to lose. Kelly had no wins and a team loss (that challenge) but felt free to  point the finger at someone who had an individual win, a team win, and then suddenly was losing on a team with Kelly and co. Which is why they were challenged on the runway for picking someone who did not have the worst design, who had proven her ability to work on a team (with a previous team win) and yet was being treated as if none of those facts existed.

 

Kelly went along with the tribe and named Ashley for reasons that had nothing to do with the work,  or work environment. She earned her condemnation for that. What came after -- everybody showing shit collections, and the shit collection with the most legs in terms of media coverage winning -- has nothing to do with Kelly acting like an asshole in that challenge. (And at the reunion. And at the finale, when she treated Ashley as a possible saboteur, just for helping Boy George Joan Cusack remove the stain she had put on her own damn dress.)

 

And giving Kelly 25K (after she had proven all she could do with nine thousand was make cheap crap) puts her in the same camp as Ashley; prizes given for popularity and public relations, period.

Edited November 14, 2015 by film noire

[Mabinogia]

Ashley is a professional victim and she chose to exclude herself. I pointedly remember the others trying to get her to contribute, trying to get her to join in and she was so bitter about not being picked that she shut them out and started on her this mean girl trajectory that was really a self fulfilling prophesy.

 

The thing is, no one, not Candace, not the other women, not the guys (who also did not pick her even though their other choice was then "crazy" Merlene (which I would have picked over Ashley at that point too, since Merlene at least seems to enjoy herself and have a positive outlook)) who is obligated to put aside their own wants and desires for poor little Ashley's.

 

hell, for all we know, Candace hated working with her that first challenge but put on a brave face and soldiered through because that is what is required when you work with Ashley. It's like walking on eggshells, and who is going to voluntarily do that? IDK how Candace felt, I'm just saying, we can't assume that because they did well together on one challenge Candace is automatically going to become Ashley's BFF or design partner, or jump at the chance to work with her again.

 

Ashley just seems exhausting, one of those people who needs constant validation. I don't blame a single one of them for not wanting to work with her, or from wanting her gone.

 

I was mesmerized by whatever that was on Swapnil's ear. It was just in such an odd place, like it was pinning the top of his ear to his head. I just couldn't stop thinking that he was trying to train his ear to stay up like with Dobermans. lol I got the impression that he was over the drama, and good for him.  

 

I actually forgot Ashley had won (since I missed the beginning of the reunion) and kept thinking Kelly won until they gave her the "you should have won but we have an agenda so here's some money for you" award.

[sinkwriter]

 

I was mesmerized by whatever that was on Swapnil's ear. It was just in such an odd place...

 

I wonder if it's similar in style to what he had some of the women on his Fashion Week runway show wear. Theirs weren't just in the ear though - if I recall correctly, their jewelry wrapped around part of the face and connected to the nose. I didn't love that look on the runway, actually; I thought it was a gimmick that detracted from Swapnil's beautifully made clothes. (Like with Ashley and her headpieces, I'm very glad he didn't have every model wear it.)

Edited November 14, 2015 by sinkwriter

[dgpolo]

I believe that is a traditional Indian look. Someone more familiar with the culture would know more but a simple google search brought up examples immediately.

[sinkwriter]

That's cool. I can appreciate including within his show something from his culture, but I felt that particular choice distracted from the clothes. 

[Julia]

Apparently the nose chain is a hindu bridal custom which has become increasingly popular with western hipsters.

 

I'm a little charmed by that. It's sort of a cheeky way for him to send bridal down the runway.

[sinkwriter]

The pictures of the Indian brides wearing it are beautiful. Kendall Jenner sporting the "look" is ridiculous and I'd also add potentially insulting to the culture, given that it's not HER culture and I don't imagine she has any real respect for the actual tradition of it.

[mansonlamps]

Wow, no one could care less about Kendall Jenner than I do, but come on she's allowed to wear styles from another culture without being accused of being insulting. What happened to imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?

[sinkwriter]

Mmmm.... (thinks about it).... no.

 

LOL.

 

I kid, but seriously, I didn't say she was insulting. I said the act of someone wearing it when it's not your own culture is potentially insulting. As in, I can't speak for the people from that actual culture, and I'm just asking the question. I really do think there's a difference.

 

And I do think it's pretty pretentious and showy to take on something that is so inherent to a culture, but that you (the royal you, not you personally, masonlamps) have no knowledge, experience or ties to. I mean, it's not like she's just buying a pair of earrings or a scarf from the local shop in New Delhi while on vacation. She's wearing something very specific to Indian culture and traditions. It feels very weird to me to do that if you have no spiritual, religious or cultural reason for doing so.

[breezy424]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the term "mean girl". I still think it is an unfair assessment of some of those other women. Candice was certainly insufferable and even Lindsey obviously felt that way based on her reaction to Candice while watching the reunion from the green room. (I actually thought Lindsey had some spot-on observations in all of her talking heads, and I liked her even when I didn't like her clothes) Amanda was .. Amanda. Kelly doesn't seem to have a mean bone in her body.

 

I also think it is a sexist term and attitude, because it's only women that get lumped together under that sort of label despite being individuals with possibly individual reasons for their actions. Are there gangs of girls in schools going around bullying a designated victim a la' "Heathers"? Yes. Is every group of women who become closer to each other than to someone else being "mean"? No.

 

Were they even all that close? Given Lindsey's snarky comment during the reunion, I'm not so sure. When you are used to being on the outside looking in, as Ashley is, you always assume that there IS an "in" and that everyone else is in it. Some of these people got along better than others. I don't think the remaining women at that point were all some tight little group that excluded only Ashley and Laurie (and Merline). Maybe they were, but when you have 7 women and you get along better with 2-3 of them and not the other 3-4, that hardly feels like you are excluding any one person specifically. (If I were in a group of 7 women, most likely I would actively DISLIKE at least half of them) My guess is that it was less a case of a solid group of friends and more a case of X got along with Y, then Y also liked Z etc.

 

 

I'm not sure what you are saying that it says. Ashley walked away from a disaster, but it was still HER team too and walking away just doesn't fly. Not on PR and not in the real working world. So yes, it says something that she walked away from the team's inability, but if you are saying it speaks to the team's failure, I'd counter that it also speaks to Ashley's.

 

I'd say Kelly's was the worst outfit, but what was she going to do.. name herself?

 

I also don't think ANY of them know enough about leadership to recognize (then or now) that Candice's self-appointed-leader attitude, while being incapable of actually leading, was their downfall. None of the others had strong personalities to override her or take charge themselves.

 

It's interesting to me how people can watch the same thing and come away with such different impressions. I rewatched the paintball episode after coming here when it aired because I kept reading about all this crappy treatment of Ashley and I didn't see it. When I rewatched, I even rewound to several scenes to watch them a 3rd time. What I saw was a bunch of disorganized magpies flitting aimlessly all over the place and all talking over each other. So while that meant that they talked over Ashley too, she wasn't singled out. I saw scenes of the women in the suite sitting on beds chatting, and Ashley was right there with them and they were including her. I saw scenes of Candice and others trying to get her to speak up and give her ideas too and Ashley refusing to do so for fear of them not liking her ideas. I saw Ashley walk away from discussions, and point out what a mistake it was to smash the paintballs in the fabric, after the fact when it was too late.

 

In several viewings, I didn't see A SINGLE instance of Ashley being treated any shabbier than anyone else. I can believe that it may have felt that way to HER, especially if she got the feeling that they were actually communicating with each another through all that chatter, but they weren't. They were ignoring each other's words just as much as hers. They were ridiculously irritating to watch, but they weren't being "mean" to Ashley, IMO. Ashley just didn't understand the personality types to recognize that the dynamic between each of them was just as dysfunctional as the dynamic SHE had with them.

 

Except that Kelly was using that as a reason to send her home AFTER the challenge was over. Therefore what Ashley did in a previous challenge with a different partner was irrelevant to the dynamic of the paintball team Kelly was on.

Lot's to respond to but I'll try at some.  Point taken on the 'mean girl'.  I understand it can mean different things to different people.  I also get where you're coming from on 'mean girl' being a sexist term.  It's like when a woman is having an affair, especially with a married man, she's someone's mistress.  What is the man?  I don't know a better word to describe what they were in that situation.  A couple of words come to mind:  stupid, arrogant,  egotistical and cliquey.  Yeah, I know many would disagree with me on this. 

 

And yeah, I can see your point on them not being that close but I think up until that time, they were closest with each other and like anything, as time went on and things happen, some could have drifted apart.  The other question is did they get to see all the episodes before the reunion was filmed.  The show premiered the beginning of August and Fashion Week was in September.  My feeling is that they did.  

 

Yeah, Ashley did walk away.  I don't think she was totally right in doing that but I can understand why she felt 'what's the point'.  Was that a part of the team failure?  No more than the rest of them.  And Ashley did try to coordinate with the others.  Unfortunately, no one had a clue especially the self appointed leader, Candice.

 

I disagree with how you saw Ashley being treated.  And we're back to 'mean girls'.  We have Ashley being chosen last although she did win two challenges (it was ironic that she killed it at the paintball challenge)  At the runway, Laurie said that the other women wouldn't listen to Ashley,  Then we have the who should go home.   Then after Kelly Osborne says it sounds like a bitch fest (and it did given that Ashley's wasn't the worst design.  Yeah, others will disagree) and then when Candice is asked she says Laurie.  It was all too 'much' and 'insincere'.  As the Previously TV recap said, "Ashley was marginalized."

 

This in turn devolves into a weird mean-girl situation on the girls' team that sees Ashley marginalized and set up for the loss, though Laurie rats out the others to Ashley before the runway to prepare her for what's coming.

 

Yep, the majority of the blame for the failure was on Candice.  I loved her panic before the runway when she decides it about San Francisco woman.  What was it before?  LA?  NY? 

[breezy424]

I am going to say I never bought into the mean girl thing. I strongly suspect that there was a reason that Ashley was picked last that had nothing to do with her weight. If she was a fantastic designer that was easy to get along with then everyone would be jumping at the chance to have her on the winning team. The fact that she was picked last actually told me a lot about her real personality. The reunion show did nothing to disprove my feeling that Ashley was not an easy person to work with. Her weight just seems a convenient excuse.

An excuse by who?  Not Ashley.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I never heard her say that.  Funny though, the order of being picked told me a lot about Candice's and the others personality.  Example:  Candice picked Amanda to give her a boost. 

[still hoping]

I am so over this show.....I want to see Nina and Heidi with flowerpots on their heads

 

Ashley is worst winner ever. 

 

I am sick of sob stories. Ashley can't sew, ugly colors and patterns, same full skirt etc...clothes designed to make women look larger IMHO

 

My prediction...she will fade away..no talent....in a year or 2 we will see some stories on her miracle weight loss - like Mellissa McCarthy...Star Jones...etc 

(gastric bypass) ..then when thin (er) everyone can admit she is a no talent whiner

Edited November 15, 2015 by still hoping

[SlackerInc]

Mmmm.... (thinks about it).... no.

 

LOL.

 

I kid, but seriously, I didn't say she was insulting. I said the act of someone wearing it when it's not your own culture is potentially insulting. As in, I can't speak for the people from that actual culture, and I'm just asking the question. I really do think there's a difference.

 

And I do think it's pretty pretentious and showy to take on something that is so inherent to a culture, but that you (the royal you, not you personally, masonlamps) have no knowledge, experience or ties to. I mean, it's not like she's just buying a pair of earrings or a scarf from the local shop in New Delhi while on vacation. She's wearing something very specific to Indian culture and traditions. It feels very weird to me to do that if you have no spiritual, religious or cultural reason for doing so.

 

So would you find it weird if Swapnil wore a Western style suit (as in, something from Brooks Brothers that you would commonly see on Wall Street or in an American courtroom)?

[caci]

An excuse by who?  Not Ashley.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I never heard her say that.  Funny though, the order of being picked told me a lot about Candice's and the others personality.  Example:  Candice picked Amanda to give her a boost.

An excuse by who?  Not Ashley.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I never heard her say that.  Funny though, the order of being picked told me a lot about Candice's and the others personality.  Example:  Candice picked Amanda to give her a boost.

An excuse by Ashley to whine and then shut down. She has no "right"to be picked first whether for winning two challenges or because of her weight or likeability or whatever. The women and men made choices, rightly or wrongly. The women's team could have gone on to be the winners and the conversation could have been how the men picked or behaved badly. The thing is, once you are on a team, then do your best. If the team doesn't work well, then at least you will probably be safe. After being picked last, Ashley choices in design and behavior were her own.

[mansonlamps]

I mean, it's not like she's just buying a pair of earrings or a scarf from the local shop in New Delhi while on vacation. She's wearing something very specific to Indian culture and traditions. It feels very weird to me to do that if you have no spiritual, religious or cultural reason for doing so.

Maybe she just likes the way it looks?

[RealityCowgirl]

I am so over this show.....I want to see Nina and Heidi with flowerpots on their heads

 

Ashley is worst winner ever. 

 

I am sick of sob stories. Ashley can't sew, ugly colors and patterns, same full skirt etc...clothes designed to make women look larger IMHO

 

My prediction...she will fade away..no talent....in a year or 2 we will see some stories on her miracle weight loss - like Mellissa McCarthy...Star Jones...etc 

(gastric bypass) ..then when thin (er) everyone can admit she is a no talent whiner

Honestly, whatever we think of Ashley and her work, there's a heaping amount of truth to this. We may have some sense of how others are faring, because we're fans of the show. But *generally* speaking, winning this show doesn't seem to be all that life/career changing. Not by itself.

[guilfoyleatpp]

If I may, what Sinkwriter is talking about here (and perhaps doesn't want to say so as not to derail the convo) is Cultural Appropriation. The Jenner girl has been accused of it a few times now.

 

Generally, using a iconographic/sacred/significant adornment or idea from a different culture as a fashion accessory (ie - without understanding or APPRECIATING the significance to that culture) can be considered insulting. For example, dreadlocks on non-Rasta people, Dia de los Muertos makeup as a Halloween costume, Hindu bridal jewelry in a non-wedding situation, etc.

Not all people from the culture might feel that way, but probably most people would be somewhat offended if someone used their traditional dress as a joke. But there is a line between appropriation and appreciation. 

 

ETA: I forgot to mention that you can't "appropriate" the dominant culture.  So, in the example above, Swapnil wearing a Brooks Brothers suit...not really appropriation.  No group has been significantly oppressed or made fun of for wearing Brooks Brothers suits as the mostly connote a certain level of privilege in terms of wealth. There may be one offs here or there, but in general, it's not making fun of a costume or an adornment sacred to a culture that has otherwise been oppressed.

Edited November 15, 2015 by guilfoyleatpp

[still hoping]

I finally got around to watching this...yuck

Mean girls? Yes Heidi and Nina are...

 

I am so sick of Candace and Ashley....how kooky, avant garde. unique - goth tats and purple hair/shave side and hipster specs...yawn yawn

 

 Ashley is an ungracious "winner"...a poor rep for Plus...her poorly made junk makes models look  heavier! I would love to see HER wear one of her crop tops. Ugh

Ashley is a no talent anointed due to PC nonsense 

 

Only good part was Kelly getting a prize...would love to see her and Edmond do well

I can only hope Ashley will fade  far away

But would love to see Nina and Heidi wear flowerpot hats

[Kromm]

would love to see Nina and Heidi wear flowerpot hats

 

For some reason, even though it's just a single flower here, I imagine this as the base, but then with the flower-work vastly exaggerated.

 

 

Put a little soot on their faces and make them carry around black umbrellas too!  

 

I mean it's either that, or go the full Carmen Miranda route.

 

[sinkwriter]

A giant yes to the post written by guilfoyleatpp. Thank you for putting into much better words what I meant. *biggrin*  I was sitting here, trying to figure out how to explain myself, when I saw your post, and breathed a huge sigh of relief. YES. That is what I meant. There is a difference between a Brooks Brothers suit or general garb from any culture versus taking on something that seems to be more sacred/significant. Just a giant YES to your entire explanation.  :)

 

For example, if some Western-based actor was photographed wearing Buddhist beads but we know that is that actor's significant spiritual path, then I would have no issue with him or her wearing those beads. But if he's just wearing them to be trendy or because he thinks they look cool, and has no care for or concept of what those beads may mean to the people who actually wear them for spiritual purposes... I think that's pretty insulting and showing a lack of awareness.

Edited November 15, 2015 by sinkwriter

[sinkwriter]

I see what you're saying, but I think presenting such things in the realm of art and fashion and creativity is different and more expressive than someone like Kendall just wearing it "just because it's pretty/cool" while not really acknowledging that there is meaning to what she's just wearing for the hell of it. That's what's insulting.

 

There is (or can be) an honoring of it in the case of expressive art and creativity. The problem comes not from exploration of cultures (which is a wonderful thing) but from a lack of honoring of those cultures. When there is no awareness involved, that's when it starts to become offensive. If I understand correctly, most people in the 60's and 70's were very much connected to the cultures they were exploring. They found them beautiful and were interested in learning more, and wearing the art of the culture was an extension of that honoring.

 

But I do not believe for a second that Kendall has any of that, in her wearing the Indian jewelry that she's wearing in that photograph. I see it for her as a "look at me" trend, not anything meaningful. And then I would want to ask of her, why are you choosing to wear this? What does it mean to you? Does it mean anything? If not, then maybe you shouldn't be wearing it.

Edited November 15, 2015 by sinkwriter

[still hoping]

Eeek......\so politically correct...

 

Fashion uses ideas from all over - it also helps the economy of a country when their handicrafts are exported

 

If we only wore "our" heritage I guess I would wear a crazy  little irish costume - but don't you dare wear it if you are not Irish? 

 

Nowadays many little girls take Irish dance and compete...maybe I should protest those who are not "Irish" descent?
 

seriously why should we "honor" countries in fashion..it is fashion...not a ceremony

taking ideas, fabrics, colors, styles from other countries has been around forever

 

Maybe the Greeks should be mad when they "drape" gowns or use an armband or sparkly sandals?

Edited November 15, 2015 by still hoping

[slothgirl]

It's not irrelevant at all -- it's information about what kind of framing Kelly used to justify her bullshit decision --

 

Kelly went along with the tribe and named Ashley for reasons that had nothing to do with the work,  or work environment.

 

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on whether Kelly's choice of Ashley was BS, especially given that she herself had the worst outfit, but could hardly name herself as the one to go home. I will point out that Kelly was the FIRST to name Ashley, which doesn't indicate going along with the others. And from what I saw if the work environment, it was no picnic, but Ashley was a sourpuss throughout, so from the TEAM'S perspective (not that of observers), she contributed the least. I disagree that Ashley's ability to work in a partnership with Candice should have carried more weight in anyone's decision than her ability to work on the team being evaluated. As they say in Show business "You're only as good as your last show". Prior performances don't count in the reviews for the current one.

 

I disagree with how you saw Ashley being treated.  As the Previously TV recap said, "Ashley was marginalized."

Yep, the majority of the blame for the failure was on Candice.  I loved her panic before the runway when she decides it about San Francisco woman.  What was it before?  LA?  NY? 

I appreciate your respectful reply, but again, I'm just going to have to agree to disagree on the things we disagree on. Otherwise we'll just keep going around in circles indefinitely, and the writer of the recap has an opinion just like the rest of us... that doesn't make it some objective view or final judgement of the situation.

 

But I totally agree with you about Candice' pulling that BS about San Francisco out of thin air.

 

using a iconographic/sacred/significant adornment or idea from a different culture as a fashion accessory (ie - without understanding or APPRECIATING the significance to that culture) can be considered insulting....

 

making fun of a costume or an adornment sacred ....

So.. no Halloween nun costumes, then...

[PepperMonkey]

I'm not opposed to Kendall Jenner wearing the jewelry; I'm just opposed to her in general.

 

Re the "mean girls" controversy: See, from jump, I never thought Ashley was chosen last because of her weight or anything silly like that. I always thought she was chosen last because no one wanted to work with her. For whatever reason; she cried too much, she whined too much, she needed constant affirmation, the list could go on and on. I thought it was totally wrong of Heidi to lecture them because Ashley was chosen last, just like I thought it was silly for Kelly O. to say they were a bitchfest ganging up on Ashley after Heidi had JUST ASKED THEM who they thought should go home. Don't ask it. Of course they're not going to say themselves.

 

I always thought the upset came from Ashley feeling left out AFTER the paintball stuff and then because of what Laurie said, after allegedly overhearing the chatter from others, about how they were going to throw her under the bus. We don't know if any of that was true, but I still think they picked her last because no one wanted to work with her. And I never thought Kelly had a mean bone in her body, even then when she picked Ashley on the runway, but my opinion on that changed just slightly with a few of the comments on the reunion special and the comment she made to Ashley about the colour remover, when she said, and I'm paraphrasing, "I thought you might be trying to sabotage me." For what reason would Ashley try to sabotage her unless there was a history there?

 

When all is said and done, they just worked horrendously as a team, they were all whiney and immature and ANY ONE of them could have gone home. Actually, I thought Kelly had the ugliest easter purple garment, but I disliked Amanda so much I was fine with her leaving.

 

At any rate, with most of PR's reunion shows, Tim does spin doctoring to make himself, the judges and producers all look like the awesome people that they may not be. The other contestants bitch and moan about each other OR try to pretend that they weren't evil, they were just "drawn" that way.

 

And I was still left wishing Swapnil hadn't self-destructed. Although, once again, as most of us believe, he probably wouldn't have won anyway. That plus size win was pre-determined.

[NewDigs]

ETA quote:

Eeek......\so politically correct...

Fashion uses ideas from all over - it also helps the economy of a country when their handicrafts are exported

If we only wore "our" heritage I guess I would wear a crazy little irish costume - but don't you dare wear it if you are not Irish?

Nowadays many little girls take Irish dance and compete...maybe I should protest those who are not "Irish" descent?

seriously why should we "honor" countries in fashion..it is fashion...not a ceremony

taking ideas, fabrics, colors, styles from other countries has been around forever

Maybe the Greeks should be mad when they "drape" gowns or use an armband or sparkly sandals?

I don't think the bridal jewelry was an example of dis/honoring a country but perhaps rather dishonoring a religion.

I would guess that Catholics would prefer to not see rosaries used as jewelry/necklaces by non-catholics but I don't know at what point sensitivity issues trump a person's individual style or creativity.

It seems to me to be a gray area.

Edited November 15, 2015 by NewDigs

[sinkwriter]

 

It seems to me to be a gray area.

 

Yes, I definitely agree.

[Kromm]

I will point out that Kelly was the FIRST to name Ashley, which doesn't indicate going along with the others. 

Mean girls have Mentalism powers, doncha know? They just beam bad vibes to each other!

[yeswedo]

Please try to keep the majority of your discussion focused on the Project Runway reunion episode.

 

Thanks

[guilfoyleatpp]

Sorry - went way off topic.  

Edited November 15, 2015 by guilfoyleatpp

[film noire]

Mean girls have Mentalism powers, doncha know? They just beam bad vibes to each other!

 

Who needs a super power when all you to do is talk to each other?:)

 

 

would love to see Nina and Heidi wear flowerpot hats

 

Many upper middle class women wear floral fascinators, it's not just a "Carmen Miranda" thing -- they turn up at Ascot and garden parties, etc, (and if it were a Treacy floral flowerpot, I bet Nina and Heidi would run each other down to put it on their heads).

Edited November 16, 2015 by film noire

[Julia]

I would guess that Catholics would prefer to not see rosaries used as jewelry/necklaces by non-catholics 

 

Yeah, having lived through Madonna's sacrilege period, I'm going to say yes, that was definitely the reaction quite a few vocally conservative Catholics had. Likewise Boy George and hasidic outerwear.

 

In the case of this runway show, though, I thought it was kind of neat that Swapnil played with the idea of topping a show by sending bridal down the runway by sending something down the runway with his pieces that most people watching (including me) didn't recognize as bridal. It was a nice shout out to the people who follow him back home.

 

MMV, of course.

[still hoping]

Back to "mean girls" topic...

 

someone had to be picked last...people were forming semi-friendships...maybe one whiney self centered person annoyed them

 

someone had to be last...do the math. 

 

Ashley had so little interest in anyone other than herself.....I had remarked on this long ago...she seldom had anything good to say about anyone

 

when she was winning she was ungracious

she was ungracious at the reunion

 

as for Nina and Heidi in flower hats? LOL>> how many times has Nina whined about "mumsy">> I guess grand-mumsy plus size outfits great for the 

early bird special or a nursing home party would suit them?  This was a pre-determined fix. I think they planned a plus size win...too bad they did not find a plus designer with talent and a nice personality

[Mabinogia]

Back in the good old days, before everyone got an award just for showing up and no one was a special snowflake and some people just didn’t like each other, there was a saying, if everyone has a problem with you, it might actually be you! Now if no one likes you, well, they’re just mean girls. They didn’t want to work with Ashley not because they are mean but because there was just someone there that each of them would rather work with. Someone who doesn’t need to be coddled, someone who can put aside personal issues and get the job done, someone who is less high maintenance, or, hell, someone they just like better. Doesn’t make them mean no matter how much Ashley pouts about it or if a judge who saw them all for two seconds and has no clue what went on during the challenge, Kelly Osborne, makes a snap decision based on a few people saying one person’s name. I hope Ashley gains some self awareness from all this, but I’m not going to hold my breath.

[caci]

Mabinogia, very well said.

[Kromm]

Back in the good old days, before everyone got an award just for showing up and no one was a special snowflake and some people just didn’t like each other, there was a saying, if everyone has a problem with you, it might actually be you! Now if no one likes you, well, they’re just mean girls. They didn’t want to work with Ashley not because they are mean but because there was just someone there that each of them would rather work with. Someone who doesn’t need to be coddled, someone who can put aside personal issues and get the job done, someone who is less high maintenance, or, hell, someone they just like better. Doesn’t make them mean no matter how much Ashley pouts about it or if a judge who saw them all for two seconds and has no clue what went on during the challenge, Kelly Osborne, makes a snap decision based on a few people saying one person’s name. I hope Ashley gains some self awareness from all this, but I’m not going to hold my breath.

True, true. All of this.

 

I'd make comparisons to people in other areas of our current culture, but I don't want to risk getting off-topic to Project Runway.  Suffice it to say that Ashley has a few burdens here I hope she learns from (and probably won't). So does Candice, but lets be honest... short of some redemption arc on a Project Runway All-Stars, Candice being called out as a mean girl and leader of mean girls on national TV has probably fucked her public image for good. Ashley can spin her victory into a business advantage, if she just gets over herself and grows a spine as well as some thicker skin. I personally think her work on the finale was awful, but what I think matters less than if she can sell herself successfully going forward. Worse people than her (again, I won't name names or risk off-topicness) have done so and been rewarded in our culture.

[Soobs]

Wow read all these comments and I am a little surprised that the "mean girl" controversy is so controversial here.  My opinion is that both sides were wrong. Ashley and Candace had just come off a team win where they hugged when they won. They seemed like the got along really well. Then the next challenge Heidi and Tim come out in coveralls with paint guns so it's pretty obvious that what they will be doing will require athleticism which everyone (wrongly) assumes Ashley doesn't have. I think Ashley still expected to be picked relatively soon by Candace as they had won a challenge and got a long well together. Ashley was very hurt when she wasn't because she is immature/ socially stunted. I think the real reason Candace didn't choose her was because the other women were more likely to follow her orders and she thought it would be a good chance to get rid of Ashley. The ganging up on Ashley on the runway was definitely planned but it was more strategic than personal. If Ashley had been more mature/ experienced in social situations she could have brushed it off as haters gonna hate. 

 

One could say that Candace was just playing the game but I would say that if you are really a good designer you don't have to lower yourself to such shenanigans. I also want to add that Kelly Osborne saying "bitchfest" and Blake calling the women "mean girls" was really sexist and gendered b.s. and it made me cringe.

 

Candace and her gang should have said some type of apology rather than defensively yelling. It wasn't a good look. Ashley needs to understand that with success comes responsibility which includes the responsibility to brush off petty people who might try to take her down a notch.

[Kromm]

Wow read all these comments and I am a little surprised that the "mean girl" controversy is so controversial here.  My opinion is that both sides were wrong. Ashley and Candace had just come off a team win where they hugged when they won. They seemed like the got along really well. 

"Seem" is the operative word here. We can only see what the show presents to us. We know the "I got a bad edit" excuse is often bullshit, because people always said what they show, but often what they DON'T show is also relevant. 

I suppose the real issue here is if Ashley really thought she and Candice were pals/colleagues/compadres at that point. But even if she did (and had cause to) that doesn't tell us much about the state of mind of anyone else there.

 

 

I think the real reason Candace didn't choose her was because the other women were more likely to follow her orders and she thought it would be a good chance to get rid of Ashley. The ganging up on Ashley on the runway was definitely planned but it was more strategic than personal. If Ashley had been more mature/ experienced in social situations she could have brushed it off as haters gonna hate.

There's likely some truth to this speculation, but only in the vaguest sense. While the schoolyard pick wasn't something they explicitly knew was coming, we could infer they knew at some point a team challenge might come and planned to not pick Ashley if possible. But this being a plot to get rid of Ashley via that seems like a real stretch as a suggestion, because all they were picking was teammates, not who did what or got eliminated. 

Then later on when the judges did the "who should go" bullshit, again I think we can suggest that while they didn't explicitly know it was coming, they might have had an idea such a thing would eventually be done.  Except Kelly really seemed to have a Deer-in-the-Headlights/Surprised attitude when she (the first person) was asked. So I'd say that falls against them having planned anything. What got Ashley picked was perhaps who she'd succeeded or failed to make friends with, and while that's perhaps not ultimately "fair" in a contest about who is the best designer.. neither was making them pick the weakest, or criticizing them as "mean girls" for following your directions and doing so.

[breezy424]

An excuse by Ashley to whine and then shut down. She has no "right"to be picked first whether for winning two challenges or because of her weight or likeability or whatever. The women and men made choices, rightly or wrongly. The women's team could have gone on to be the winners and the conversation could have been how the men picked or behaved badly. The thing is, once you are on a team, then do your best. If the team doesn't work well, then at least you will probably be safe. After being picked last, Ashley choices in design and behavior were her own.

The point is that she didn't use her 'weight' as an excuse for anything and that is what you stated and I replied to.  I don't think she thought she had a 'right' to be picked first but given that she did win two (of four challenges if I remember correctly.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.  No problem) that it 'was' unusual that she was picked last.  Enough so that Heidi and Tim made a point of it. Yeah, it was hurtful as well.

 

Given that team, there was no chance that they would win even if Ashley laid into them.  It wasn't going to happen.  'Candice' was in charge.  I agree with you that Ashley should have spoken up more.  As for doing her best, well, IMO her design was better than the bottom three:  Leader Candice, Kelly and Amanda.  I have to disagree with that Ashley's choices were her own because she did consult with the rest of the team.  Unfortunately, the team was so inept they couldn't give her anything constructive about the theme (well, the non existent theme) so they said it was fine.  Her behavior was her own.  At least she owned it at the reunion and apologized for being emotional.  Apparently, the rest of team never took the responsibility or own their contribution to the failure.  I'm looking at you Candice.  They made it about Ashley not defending them to Blake. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by breezy424

[breezy424]

"Seem" is the operative word here. We can only see what the show presents to us. We know the "I got a bad edit" excuse is often bullshit, because people always said what they show, but often what they DON'T show is also relevant. 

I suppose the real issue here is if Ashley really thought she and Candice were pals/colleagues/compadres at that point. But even if she did (and had cause to) that doesn't tell us much about the state of mind of anyone else there.

 

There's likely some truth to this speculation, but only in the vaguest sense. While the schoolyard pick wasn't something they explicitly knew was coming, we could infer they knew at some point a team challenge might come and planned to not pick Ashley if possible. But this being a plot to get rid of Ashley via that seems like a real stretch as a suggestion, because all they were picking was teammates, not who did what or got eliminated. 

Then later on when the judges did the "who should go" bullshit, again I think we can suggest that while they didn't explicitly know it was coming, they might have had an idea such a thing would eventually be done.  Except Kelly really seemed to have a Deer-in-the-Headlights/Surprised attitude when she (the first person) was asked. So I'd say that falls against them having planned anything. What got Ashley picked was perhaps who she'd succeeded or failed to make friends with, and while that's perhaps not ultimately "fair" in a contest about who is the best designer.. neither was making them pick the weakest, or criticizing them as "mean girls" for following your directions and doing so.

I agree with a lot of what you've said.  But the only one who criticized them as being 'mean girls' was Blake.  I don't think Laurie ever said that but she did defend Ashley.  And then a lot of episode recaps used the 'mean girls' theme. 

 

Yeah, Kelly was a deer in the headlights when asked who should go home.  Watching her, she leaned forward as to look at the other designs and she picked Ashley.  This is why I call BS on her response that she chose Ashley because Ashley walked away.  If she felt like that at the time, why the leaning forward to look at the other designs?  Could be wrong but that's how I saw it at the time.

[Kromm]

I agree with a lot of what you've said.  But the only one who criticized them as being 'mean girls' was Blake.  I don't think Laurie ever said that but she did defend Ashley.  And then a lot of episode recaps used the 'mean girls' theme. 

And then Kelly Osbourne,and then Heidi and the rest of the judges by implication of other things they said, even if not using those precise words.

[sking24450]

I thought Candice only was allowed to choose the first person.  Maybe if she had to pick a second person she would have chosen Ashley.  She wanted to work with Amanda, the only reason this seems to be an issue is that Ashley insists on being offended that she wasn't chosen.  Who would she have chosen to be picked last in her stead?

[breezy424]

And then Kelly Osbourne,and then Heidi and the rest of the judges by implication of other things they said, even if not using those precise words.

Point taken.  I was taking the 'mean girls' comment literally.  Were they 'implying' it?  Yeah.  And I could see why.

[Kromm]

I thought Candice only was allowed to choose the first person.  Maybe if she had to pick a second person she would have chosen Ashley.  She wanted to work with Amanda, the only reason this seems to be an issue is that Ashley insists on being offended that she wasn't chosen.  Who would she have chosen to be picked last in her stead?

She was only allowed to choose the first. The accusation here is that Candice either thought-beamed an agenda into the other heads (or via dirty looks and eyebrow movements), OR that they knew ahead of time that something like this was coming along and pre-planned screwing Ashley.

 

My point earlier was that they couldn't really screw her that badly. All they could do is exclude her from their team (and not REALLY since it depended on the picks the boys team did). They certainly couldn't do anything to directly get her booted (in fact, having her on THEIR team would be the only chance of that--not forcing her to the other team).

 

It's also not really all that credible that they could have really known that there'd be a schoolyard pick that would result in a gender split. They could have known there'd be two teams, sure, but how those teams would come about shouldn't have been anything they'd have an inkling of. One would almost have to go to a conspiracy theory level that production TOLD them to make that true.

 

This is completely separate from the "who should go" thing in a later episode. Again the accusation with that seems to be that they probably guessed ahead of time they'd be asked something like this (not impossible I suppose, since Heidi, that nasty bitch, is known for doing this at least once per season) or that eye wiggles and looks communicated things. And to be honest I DO find it a bit more credible here with less people around and a better chance they'd actually see this behavior from the show. The one thing to get over with this surrounds Designer Kelly and gaging what her reactions actually meant. I'll admit it's possible they all planned this (and not on the spot by eyebrow wiggles), but if they did it was still fairly foolish since it means they'd have to be absolute idiots who have never seen the show before and so didn't realize the judges would not only not be bound by anything they said, but also for shit-stirring's sake would likely do the exact opposite of whatever they said. THAT'S a big reason why I don't think it was any kind of pre-planned scheme. Only something ad hoc would fall into that kind of stupidity. So if it was mean girlism, it was on the spot mean girlism.

[BeaverGirl]

Wow read all these comments and I am a little surprised that the "mean girl" controversy is so controversial here.  My opinion is that both sides were wrong. Ashley and Candace had just come off a team win where they hugged when they won. They seemed like the got along really well. Then the next challenge Heidi and Tim come out in coveralls with paint guns so it's pretty obvious that what they will be doing will require athleticism which everyone (wrongly) assumes Ashley doesn't have. I think Ashley still expected to be picked relatively soon by Candace as they had won a challenge and got a long well together. Ashley was very hurt when she wasn't because she is immature/ socially stunted. I think the real reason Candace didn't choose her was because the other women were more likely to follow her orders and she thought it would be a good chance to get rid of Ashley. The ganging up on Ashley on the runway was definitely planned but it was more strategic than personal. If Ashley had been more mature/ experienced in social situations she could have brushed it off as haters gonna hate. 

 

One could say that Candace was just playing the game but I would say that if you are really a good designer you don't have to lower yourself to such shenanigans. I also want to add that Kelly Osborne saying "bitchfest" and Blake calling the women "mean girls" was really sexist and gendered b.s. and it made me cringe.

 

Candace and her gang should have said some type of apology rather than defensively yelling. It wasn't a good look. Ashley needs to understand that with success comes responsibility which includes the responsibility to brush off petty people who might try to take her down a notch.

Depends on how you define "athleticism."* If you define athleticism primarily as running, agility, or flexibility (dodging, somersaults, gymnastics) then no, Ashley doesn't have athleticism.

 

Ashley said (and showed in the 1st episode where she only grabbed the left-over fabric on the ground) that she can't run for jack-diddly or make a quick grab for fabrics. What Ashley HAS is good "marksmanship". She's a great shot with a paintball gun having played paintball with male relatives ( a brother?) when she was a little younger.

 

But here's the thing: Ashley ONLY mentioned being a great shot in her Talking Head confessional. At no other point (in the 90 minute cut of the episode that we saw) did she SAY to her potential team mates "FYI: I've shot paintballs before. I can hit the targets. Give me a chance, I can really help."

 

It was early in the season so Ashley may have felt too shy or self-conscience to speak up. I get that. If she had mentioned her marksmanship as a strength/talent DURING the pick or in a team huddle before the game, I think it woulda helped everyone. (Boosted Ashley's confidence/cred, maybe prompt other girls to open up about thier hidden talents or bond, etc. Feel more like they're all collaborators or team mates, even if they aren't all friends yet.)

 

--blah blah, sports and athletics talk--

 

*There are of course other ways to define athleticism. My default is to think running, since track was the only sport I ever lettered in. I can do sprints, hurdles, and relay pretty good. I cannot kick for beans (no soccer skills), stink at batting and pitching (no baseball skills), rarely make a free throw (no b-ball skills), and can't skate (ice skate, rollerskate, skateboard-- I'm bad at them all.) And I still can't do the dougie, the whip, or the nae-nae (no freestyle, street, or breakdance skills.)  I can swim OK, that's about it. All other sports fall into my "never tried it, I would probly suck" category.

 

So if you pick me for paintball thinking "fast and scrawny = moving target" that's all you'd get. I'd try to fire a few shots, probly miss every time. Then I'll fall back, "run, duck, hide, coward". I'd be your team's Princess Blake.** 

 

BUT I would tell you upfront "I can't shoot, I can only run." If we lost, it's okay to blame me or tell me I sucked. If we won, it would be cause the other guys/girls on the team did all the gunning.

 

--TL;DR summary--

**I'm a chatterbox obvs, so in most cases I'm your team's Merline. But if glittery clothes is involved, I'd Blake out again. ^__^

Edited November 17, 2015 by BeaverGirl

[Tony]

But Ashley being a better marksman doesn't help the girls in the slightest. She's only giving the men more non-white uniforms to work with. She's not exactly dashing back and forth getting paint on her uniform. Blake was equally as useless in this challenge, so he should STFU too.

 

Bottom line is that she expected to be one of the first to be picked because of her past wins, she wasn't, and proceeded to retract to her insecure poor-me attitude. The girls definitely didn't single her out or give her any mean treatment. Because she was so useless during the process, they threw out her name when Heidi asked them. Saying that they bullied her is a farce and makes light of the actual bullying problem in society. She's nothing more than an entitled, insecure, whiny special snowflake. And now they rewarded her with a win.

[Julia]

So, what I got from what they showed us was this: 

 

Ashley expected to be chosen first, and wasn't, because Candice was busily positioning herself as a mentor, and there was no point in her trying to mentor Ashley, who had one more individual win than she did. Amanda is a fool and a dumbass who apparently thought she was staffing a dodgeball team and chose Kelly because she enjoyed hanging out with her, which is also how Kelly chose Laurie (who had to be absolutely concussed with class squick that Kelly went first), and Laurie didn't have another choice.

 

Then Heidi called them out on behalf of Ashley, which put them on the defensive, because Candice didn't like having her choice called out for bad judgment and the other three weren't excited that one of the judges thought Ashley was clearly a better choice than they were. Which brought us to this part:

 

Candice:

 

The Three Other Contestants: [Why yes, we are awesome, and you are awesome, and this is the bestest plan seriously ever!]

 

Ashley (still butthurt over being picked last, and with Heidi's reinforcement that she was deliberately slighted): [i'm not sure we've really thought this out, guys]

 

What Candice and The Three Other Contestants heard Ashley say, because they were all clearly of surpassing awesomeness and were pissed at Ashley already:

 

So they didn't welcome her input. But instead of standing up for her perceptions and engaging, she took the fact that they didn't welcome her input as a reason to stop giving it. And as Ashley is someone who has difficulty dealing with input she doesn't want to hear, I can't put that all on them. 

 

They all behaved like idiots, Heidi didn't help, and Ashley really needs to look at her life and come to terms with the fact that she's not in high school any more unless she wants to spend the rest of her life in high school. People behaving like assholes are not necessarily bullying you unless for some reason you're forced by power imbalance to take it. Ashley wasn't.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Julia

[film noire]

She was only allowed to choose the first. The accusation here is that Candice either thought-beamed an agenda into the other heads (or via dirty looks and eyebrow movements), OR that they knew ahead of time that something like this was coming along and pre-planned screwing Ashley.

 

Those of us familiar with reality shows have suggested that a clique formed, with loose plans to back each other up in any clearly expected upcoming team challenge -- that doesn't require "thought-beaming", dirty looks or eyebrows wiggling.

 

 

Bottom line is that she expected to be one of the first to be picked because of her past wins, she wasn't, and proceeded to retract to her insecure poor-me attitude. The girls definitely didn't single her out or give her any mean treatment.

 

One of the hallmarks of a Mean Girl dynamic (esp. as seen in corporate environments, which Candace seemed to suddenly think they were in) is to ignore, undermine or shut down any contributions from the other.  And any persistence on the part of the other will be used to further alienate that individual from the group.  That alienation is usually highlighted against the group bonding together, often in defiance of a suggestion made by the other (the ruination of the material). Ashley was mean girl marginalized, and given her history, she knew what the next step would be if she pushed back harder. 

 

And it's disturbing to me that after a decade of this behavior being examined in academic,  corporate and familial situations, we're still blaming the victims, not the perps; deconstructing what "they" did wrong, instead of deconstructing the wrong itself.

Edited November 17, 2015 by film noire

[Ms Blue Jay]

I think it's important to point out the Mean Girl dynamic.  I don't think it's sexist.  It's still a very real thing.  Sexism actually contributes to the Mean Girl dynamic.  Books have been written about it.  Many of us have experienced this in life, so to me pointing it out is very validating.  It would be great if we lived in a feminist utopia where women all help other women and sing kumbaya.  Not being sarcastic, I honestly wish.  But that isn't the reality - YET.  Some of us wish for that and work towards that.  Others could completely not give a fuck, hence, the mean girl dynamic.  There are women in your social life and workplace and family who will (I'll say it politely) act negatively towards you.  It's unfortunate but it's a good thing to be aware of.  

 

http://www.amazon.ca/Mean-Girls-Grown-Afraid-Bees/dp/0470168757

 

Men can be negative towards other men, too!  It just gets a different label.  Or "Boys will be Boys", or no label, because they're men so whatever.  (Sarcasm here.)

 

I agree that Bitch fest was a sexist term though.  I don't think anyone could argue bitch isn't a sexist term.  But mean?  Nah.   Mean women would have been better, sure , but there's no movie named that.  We all know Blake loves that movie.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay