S12.E07: Something Against You

[tomatoflyer]

I live in a very diverse lower middle class neighorhood on the edge of Atlanta and we don't talk like that, but I have the impression that upper-middle class white people do, it is a way of ignoring a problem exist - by making it rude to overately mention it.

I'm black. When talking to other black people I'll outright say it, but when talking to white people, I'm more likely to be more subtle, so I didn't find it weird for the characters to not be so direct.

[SevenStars]

I'm black. When talking to other black people I'll outright say it, but when talking to white people, I'm more likely to be more subtle, so I didn't find it weird for the characters to not be so direct.

I agree. I found that when I out right say it, people have a tendency to get offended because they think I'm calling them racist and not their actions. When most of the time, it's their actions I'm calling racist, not them. Then I have to try to get them to calm down and listen to me and hear what I'm trying to say, instead of assuming that just because I call out their actions, means that I think they are racist. Because a lot of racist stuff have become the norm for most people, so they do these things, not because they are racist. But because it's the norm.

[SevenStars]

Adding my two cents to the Meredith discussion, I don't think Meredith was rude to Riggs. He asked her out for a drink, not wanting him to take her rejection personal, she simply let him know that she was Owens. So that he knows it was out off loyalty, not dislike or anything else that causeven her to say no to him. I thought that was very kind and nice of Meredith to do while still trying to show her support for Owen. Meredith is doing 5his because Owens reaction make her think that whatever is between Owen and Riggs is not a small thing, therefore he needs her support in a clear cut way.

As for how she was treating Penny. I get it and I am not going to dislike her for it because she is trying to deal the best way she knows how in an usually situation.

I thought Stephanie's reaction during Jo's rants to Penny was not smug. But the look of someone who couldn't believe that Jo was doing the same thing again, which is going after the person who had no real authority in the situation, while not saying shit to person who did have authority. Because this is what Jo keeps doing and this is why the other doctors keeping shitting on her. They probably don't even notice that they are doing it and since she never brings it to their attention, they are not going to start treating her better. They tried to do the same thing to Stephanie but she called them on it and now they don't do it.

[Chas411]

I thought Stephanie's reaction during Jo's rants to Penny was not smug. But the look of someone who couldn't believe that Jo was doing the same thing again, which is going after the person who had no real authority in the situation, while not saying shit to person who did have authority.

Wait I'm confused when has Jo done this before? Her fallout with Stephanie wasn't because Stephanie stole her surgery, it was because she thought Stephanie was lying about being ill.

[DearEvette]

I think it is another example of Jo misplacing blame or motive when something doesn't go her way.  When Stephanie told Amelia her reasons for not wanting to do the trial, Amelia was accepting of that reasoning.  But Jo saw it as a way of Stephanie trying to getting ahead by dishonest means.  But rather than trying to assert her own self and get ahead herself, she instead goes behind Steph's back and accuses her of lying, thereby sabotaging Steph.  It is the same principle with Penny.  Penny didn't do anything to steal Jo's patient.  but rather than going to Meredith and arguing for herself, Jo instead piles on Penny.   Penny has no political currency at that hospital right now.  No one except Callie will take her back on anything.  So Jo's outburst on Penny has the effect of being one more kick of a dog while he's down.

 

My thought is that Stephanie's face was some version sort of 'just stop blaming the wrong people about why you aren't getting ahead.' exasperated look.

Edited November 16, 2015 by DearEvette

[Chas411]

Jo genuinely thought Stephanie was lying and so she told Amelia. When she realised she was in the wrong she apologised repeatedly. Stephanie was the one who escalated the fight.

I do agree that Jo needs to confront the right people though. Considering she's overlooked by everyone I can't see anyone who'd listen to her though.

[Racj82]

My whole thing with the Meridith/Riggs issue is, just say no to do the question. The I roll with Hunt part is just twisting a knife into a guy that you no idea why you shouldn't like him. And again, I'm not ignoring someone because my friend has an issue with that person. Sometimes these people are just too childish for me. Any rational adult would express the why of where Owens issues are coming from. Just give a hint. He costs people their lives. He put me in a impossible position that lead to bad things. Give a hint. Something. I don't understand it at all. Okay, he's not ready to talk. Fine. But, I'm not going to draw battle lines with zero facts.

I don't even want to get into the racial thing. Everyone's experience is their own. I can't say anyone is overreacting in this scenario because I don't know the characters histories completely. Issues of your past can color your perception in the present. I'll just say that Maggies words, while thoughtful, just didn't come off as real dialogue from one person to another. It just felt like a pre written speech. Which it was but I don't want it to feel that way.

[represent]

 

My thought is that Stephanie's face was some version sort of 'just stop blaming the wrong people about why you aren't getting ahead.' exasperated look.

Yep, that's exactly what it was IMO. It was a ( Girl please....) look and I'm with her. 

 

I'm all on Jo's side when it comes to Alex but she loses me when it comes to Stephanie and this latest pile on Penny, whatever. 

[DearEvette]

Jo genuinely thought Stephanie was lying and so she told Amelia. When she realised she was in the wrong she apologised repeatedly. Stephanie was the one who escalated the fight.

 

See, I don't think it matters that Jo genuinely thought Steph was lying.  She had no proof whatsoever.  And yet she went to Steph's boss and made a very serious accusation that could have derailed Steph professionally.  I would still be pissed too if someone who was supposed to be my friend went and made an accusation about my professional and personal ethics to my boss that could have serious ramifications about my professional future without any real facts or proof to back that accusation up.  It was a super shitty thing for her to do.

 

Also it made no sense for Jo to think Steph was lying about this.  I could possibly see Jo being suspicious if  Steph was trying to wiggle her way onto Amelia's trial by using a story that sounded convenient (still doesn't excuse an unproven accusation, tho).  But that wasn't the case here.  Steph was removing herself from Amelia's trail.  There is no professional advantage to Steph in that scenario.  Definitely not one that puts Jo at a disadvantage because Steph had asked Jo to take her place.  In fact Steph was legitimately doing Jo a solid.

[North]

My whole thing with the Meridith/Riggs issue is, just say no to do the question. The I roll with Hunt part is just twisting a knife into a guy that you no idea why you shouldn't like him. And again, I'm not ignoring someone because my friend has an issue with that person. Sometimes these people are just too childish for me. Any rational adult would express the why of where Owens issues are coming from. Just give a hint. He costs people their lives. He put me in a impossible position that lead to bad things. Give a hint. Something. I don't understand it at all. Okay, he's not ready to talk. Fine. But, I'm not going to draw battle lines with zero facts.

This is summed up perfectly.

 

Meredith drew battle lines by saying she was on Owen's side.  By saying what she said to Riggs, she made it clear she wasn't going to be an ally for him.

 

Riggs is already having an issue with Owen due to unknown reasons.  Maggie is wary of him due to professional reasons and now Meredith basically says she has no time for him because of who she knows.

 

This guy is at a new hospital, not a new high school.

 

It's time for the mother of three to stop with the mean girl stuff and start being an adult.

[PrincessTT]

I do agree that Jo needs to confront the right people though. Considering she's overlooked by everyone I can't see anyone who'd listen to her though.

 

It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation though... Do they overlook her because she doesn't stand up for herself and so seems ok with the treatment that she gets? Or does she not stand up for herself because she feels that she'll be overlooked anyway? 

 

If I saw Jo go to the right people and fight for her opportunities but still get knocked back then I could fully get behind her and be on her side. Seeing her take the treatment she gets and then whine to the wrong people doesn't endear her to me. 

[TVForever]

See, I don't think it matters that Jo genuinely thought Steph was lying.  She had no proof whatsoever.  And yet she went to Steph's boss and made a very serious accusation that could have derailed Steph professionally.  I would still be pissed too if someone who was supposed to be my friend went and made an accusation about my professional and personal ethics to my boss that could have serious ramifications about my professional future without any real facts or proof to back that accusation up.  It was a super shitty thing for her to do.

 

Also it made no sense for Jo to think Steph was lying about this.  I could possibly see Jo being suspicious if  Steph was trying to wiggle her way onto Amelia's trial by using a story that sounded convenient (still doesn't excuse an unproven accusation, tho).  But that wasn't the case here.  Steph was removing herself from Amelia's trail.  There is no professional advantage to Steph in that scenario.  Definitely not one that puts Jo at a disadvantage because Steph had asked Jo to take her place.  In fact Steph was legitimately doing Jo a solid.

 

        And if I can add on to your point about Jo, she was clearly jealous of Stephanie, whom Amelia by that point had clearly taken Stephanie under her wing and was mentoring her. Running to Amelia with the accusation against Steph was just an attempt to take her down a peg in Amelia's eyes. I'm not sure Jo cared whether or not it was true. Just causing Amelia to question Steph's character ( however briefly, since the truth eventually came out) was enough to drive a wedge between them. 

[Chas411]

That's not why she did it.

Firstly she didn't run to Amelia. Amelia came to her and she was annoyed so told Amelia what she believed was the truth.

She thought she was lying. She confronted her and Stephanie didn't say she wasn't. She had resentment building towards Srephanie which didn't help matters but she didn't actively go running to Amelia out of spite. As soon as she realised she was wrong she was very sorry and repeatedly tried to apologise at the dinner.

[TVForever]

Fair point, Chas411. Obviously, I've remembered the details all wrong. My oops on that.  But I do think that when the chance to diminish Amelia's Golden Girl in Amelia's eyes presented itself, Jo didn't hesitate. Because, why would you tell someone's boss that they're lying about something (that's not directly related to job performance or patient safety)? If she didn't know the truth because Stephanie never discussed it with her before, she should have just said that. And left it there. 

Of course she had to apologize to Stephanie afterwards. But what did she expect of Stephanie at that point? If Jo was right, she's just messed up Steph professionally, as well as their friendship. If Jo was wrong (as it turned out), she's messed up her friendship with Steph, and potentially made herself look bad in Amelia's eyes. Either way, did she really think Stephanie would let this go easily?

Edited November 16, 2015 by TVForever

[Chas411]

Stephanie forgave her though. They're fighting now because She overreacted to Jo saying she could relate to her rough childhood and how it made them better. It's obviously a sore spot for Stephanie and while some of her points about Jo needing to up her game were on par, I think she also took it too far.

As for Amelia it was affecting Srephs work hence she gave Jo a case and Amelia's preference of Steph landed them both in trouble. She felt that Steph got out of it by lying and also was getting ahead so she told Amelia. It was nasty but she realised it and apologised.

She acted badly and apologised. Considering she's lost her only friend I think she's paying for it. It wasn't her best moment but I really don't think it was as calculated as the above suggests.

Also considering Amelia didn't want to work with her on the first place she probably hasn't come off much worse then she already has in the past.

[calipiano81]

Having sex with someone doesn't erase the underlying problems in a relationship and it doesn't mean you have to stay married. I hope Jackson still divorces April. Having a good sexual connection isn't a good enough reason to stay together.

Jackson should then not have had sex with April. They are already having difficulty discussing the matter of divorce. Now it's going to be that much harder and April was already getting false hopes up before the dinner.

Racism is very much still an issue, except, IMO, when it's not the issue. Amelia believing Jo over Stephanie had nothing to do with race, but with the fact that Amelia was not happy her course of treatment for a patient was not followed. Like Maggie said, Stephanie knows Amelia, and in general, we have not seen Amelia demonstrate any actions or decisions based on race.

No, it's not Stephanie's job to make Amelia feel good, but I don't think it's Maggie's job to make Amelia feel guilty about being white. Parts of Maggie's speech came across to me like a lecture, when Amelia hadn't done anything wrong (other than believing the wrong person).

Maggie found it annoying that Amelia wanted to discuss the subject with her? Maggie was the one who brought it up in the first place and was the reason why Amelia was rethinking her situation with Stephanie. And they happened to be going home together when Amelia had the urge to talk about it. So again, might not have had anything to do with race.

Edited November 16, 2015 by calipiano81

[Easyspreestep]

Racism is very much still an issue, except, IMO, when it's not the issue. Amelia believing Jo over Stephanie had nothing to do with race, but with the fact that Amelia was not happy her course of treatment for a patient was not followed. Like Maggie said, Stephanie knows Amelia, and in general, we have not seen Amelia demonstrate any actions or decisions based on race.

 

See this is why I wanted someone to ask Amelia why did you believe Jo over Stephanie.  I think the reason Amelia questioned her own actions were because she had no reason to believe Jo over Stephanie.  Richard asked her in the original episode and Amelia never answered the question.  I think the reason Amelia feels guilty, is because she knows that there is no reason she believed Jo over Stephanie.  I'm not saying Amelia is racist but that subconsciously race may have played a part in her so easily believing Jo with no proof.  Amelia had spend way more time with Stephanie but the moment Jo said something negative regarding Stephanie Amelia ran with it.  Amelia didn't asked Stephanie, didn't speak to her privately, she immediately went to Stephanie's boss to get her in trouble on the word of someone she barley knows, does not really like, and thinks is incompetent.  

[represent]

I'm not saying Amelia is racist but that subconsciously race may have played a part in her so easily believing Jo with no proof.  Amelia had spend way more time with Stephanie but the moment Jo said something negative regarding Stephanie Amelia ran with it.  Amelia didn't asked Stephanie, didn't speak to her privately, she immediately went to Stephanie's boss to get her in trouble on the word of someone she barley knows, does not really like, and thinks is incompetent.

 

 

 

 

Exactly. 

 

I think the story was mainly about internal bias which everyone has, not just the white privileged by the way. I think that's why they made sure to include the fact that it was also the bias that Maggie still feels as a female surgeon and not just one of African descent. I think the story line was just to remind folks like Amelia to be aware, because she did imply that she wasn't aware that "it" was still a "thing." I did not get the impression from the time that Webber spoke to her and asked her why it was so easy for her to believe Stephanie over Jo that the show as trying to say that Amelia was a straight up racist. I knew and posted that it was about our internal bias that we are often not even aware that we have.  

Edited November 16, 2015 by represent

[happykitteh]

I thought the racism thing was heavy handed. Constantly bringing it up is what makes it an issue (I'm not saying it isn't but not as much as the media would like you to think). My friend is black and successful and she was never told that they weren't boarding couch yet when she was first class (as Maggie said) I mean come on. And then she brought up the fabricated White privilege? Ugh. What did Amelia believing Jo have anything to do with Stephanie being black? Not everything is about race.

Besides that I felt the show was ok. I also don't think all this hate for Penny isn't solidified. I mean they act as if she purposely murdered him.

 

Agree with this. I don't watch this show for a "The More You Know" psa. I thought it was heavy handed, out of place, and the "issue" of Amelia thinking she was racist was an obviously fabricated plot point to address an exaggerated political issue. As soon as the statement "Check your white privilege" (a meme I cannot stand) came out of Maggie's mouth I turned off the show and erased it from my DVR record list. This show has been going downhill the last few years but I was trying to stick it out until the end since I've watched from the beginning. I don't need or want racial bullshit lecturing as my entertainment.

 

ETA: They also had to throw in the "issue" of female doctors supposedly getting less respect than male docs. I only go to female doctors and had a female surgeon and I would bet most women prefer the same. Yet  another bs political statement to address the also fabricated "War on Women".

Edited November 17, 2015 by happykitteh

[pennben]

[nevermind]

Edited November 17, 2015 by pennben

[LisaM]

 

I was wondering that too,what happened to the boy, and how much time has passed  since the last episode.

 

Oddly enough, Martin has said in podcast he hoped or wished Nathan would adopt the boy.

 

I actually thought that April would adopt him.

[Slider]

Late to the party, but I really wanted to give this some thought and really think about what was said, and what other opinions were offered.  After Maggie's monologue to Amelia about race, I really gave it a lot of thought and tried to weight what was being said, but in the end I have to disagree.  I work in a male dominated profession (we're talking 90% male to 10% female), so when men come in and find out they are working with me they try to "dumb down" the technical talk or outright ask to speak with my boss, implying a man.  It's empowering for me to be able to say "I will be helping you today" or to turn down their easy question and ask for more specifics with technical terms.  I really enjoy the shock on their face when they realize I know more than they do, or that they stereotyped me and were wrong.  Never had the luxury to fly first class, but if I was and was told that coach wasn't boarding yet, handing them that ticket would empower the shit out of me and wipe their smug smile of their face.  If someone underestimates me, it pushes me to prove them wrong and gives me satisfaction when I do.  Yes, there are crappy people out there in this world, and yes some of them are racist pieces of shit, but when we hate being stereotyped for one thing and yet stereotype others, no progress is made. 

[Eolivet]

After I watched this episode, I added it to my DVR again (even though it was already there). I feel like for years, Shonda (either because she was told to or didn't want to) side-stepped the issue of racism and even sexism on Grey's, so it was great to see it addressed. I thought the scene between Maggie and Amelia was strong. I also believe you can't go subtle on this type of dialogue -- people have to be hit over the head. Call it Archie Bunker Syndrome, except all these years later, everyone knows it's serious.

 

I also watch this show for the imaginary fantasy land of a woman chief of surgery, along with nearly all women attendings. That is the type of world for Women On which I would want to go to War.

 

Most everyone else has covered what I wanted to say, but character-wise, I continue to enjoy Meredith being conflicted about Penny (and am even starting to enjoy Penny in her own right -- she fits in well). I also appreciated adding Owen's prior trauma, proving that everyone has demons from which they cannot run. Though I hope they reveal it soon, as Mystery Trauma! doesn't play well with me.

 

Speaking of Mystery Trauma guy...I did like him more this week than last week. Very subtle to put him in the elevator with Meredith, show. Yet that was the first time I noticed "Hey, that guy isn't bad-looking."

 

I continue to love this season, and I never thought I'd say that after Derek died. Anybody killing off a major character needs to read up on the Book of Shonda. And the ratings agree!

Edited November 18, 2015 by Eolivet

[izabella]

I continue to love this season, and I never thought I'd say that after Derek died. Anybody killing off a major character needs to read up on the Book of Shonda. And the ratings agree!

 

I think what worked in Shonda's favor is that Derek was hardly on the show for months before they killed him off.  He wasn't involved in anyone else's story line except for Meredith.  It's like when they killed George.  George was barely on the show at that point, so easy for the show to carry on without him.

[PepSinger]

 

 

Agree with this. I don't watch this show for a "The More You Know" psa. I thought it was heavy handed, out of place, and the "issue" of Amelia thinking she was racist was an obviously fabricated plot point to address an exaggerated political issue. As soon as the statement "Check your white privilege" (a meme I cannot stand) came out of Maggie's mouth I turned off the show and erased it from my DVR record list. This show has been going downhill the last few years but I was trying to stick it out until the end since I've watched from the beginning. I don't need or want racial bullshit lecturing as my entertainment.

ETA: They also had to throw in the "issue" of female doctors supposedly getting less respect than male docs. I only go to female doctors and had a female surgeon and I would bet most women prefer the same. Yet  another bs political statement to address the also fabricated "War on Women".

 There is nothing exaggerated about racism, and there is nothing fabricated about the War on Women. I think some research might be a good idea.

 

I loved that this ep addressed both racism and sexism. "Check your white privliege" indeed. 

[mojito]

I think it's ironic that this show had a discussion on racism while also showing Meredith hating NZ doc simply because Owen did. 

[After7Only]

I think it's ironic that this show had a discussion on racism while also showing Meredith hating NZ doc simply because Owen did.

I don't think it was ironic...I think it was a calculated point.

[calipiano81]

See this is why I wanted someone to ask Amelia why did you believe Jo over Stephanie. I think the reason Amelia questioned her own actions were because she had no reason to believe Jo over Stephanie. Richard asked her in the original episode and Amelia never answered the question. I think the reason Amelia feels guilty, is because she knows that there is no reason she believed Jo over Stephanie. I'm not saying Amelia is racist but that subconsciously race may have played a part in her so easily believing Jo with no proof. Amelia had spend way more time with Stephanie but the moment Jo said something negative regarding Stephanie Amelia ran with it. Amelia didn't asked Stephanie, didn't speak to her privately, she immediately went to Stephanie's boss to get her in trouble on the word of someone she barley knows, does not really like, and thinks is incompetent.

But see, I thought Amelia easily believed Jo because she was miffed that Stephanie did not follow her instructions with the patient and then she had to suck it up because she couldn't really scold Stephanie for it after hearing about her childhood trauma (without coming across as cold-hearted).

So when Jo made her accusation, Amelia was ready to believe it and now had justification to get on Stephanie's case.

I am not white, but when that scene first aired, it didn't occur to me that racial undertones were intended until it was brought up in this episode.

Edited November 29, 2015 by calipiano81

[mojito]

 

I don't think it was ironic...I think it was a calculated point.

Yeah, you got that point. 

 

For me, the real irony is that people posted about the racism aspect of the episode, and about Meredith's blindly going along with Owen's opinions, but few seemed to recognize the parallels.

Edited November 29, 2015 by mojito

[represent]

I am not white, but when that scene first aired, it didn't occur to me that racial undertones were intended until it was brought up in this episode.

 

 

 

 

It was very obvious to me that it was about internal bias/white privilege as soon as Chief Webber spoke to Amelia.  As soon as he said to her that she has been closely with Stephanie for months yet it was so easy for her to believe Jo over Stephanie, easy to believe that Stephanie had to be lying, I knew it was about inherent bias for sure.

 

But my experience is like Stephanie, I come from where she's coming from, "it's always there", meaning it's in the back of my mind. I could be wrong, so I shut it and watch closely and listen just to make sure it's not all in my head.  But because it's always there, I got it as soon as it was presented with Webber's talk with Amelia. Or at the very least it was a consideration that this story was about bias, racism etc...

 

Although, had he not spoken to Amelia, I don't think I would have thought this was where they were going, until maybe Stephanie's rant at Jo during the dinner at Meredith's.  No, even then, I would not have gotten that vibe.  Because I remember thinking damn Stephanie, the girl is just trying to be friendly, and that she was just saying how what you've been through has made you strong and a good surgeon, because she, Jo, has been through shit. I never got the impression that Jo was saying to Stephanie that had you, Stephanie, not had a chronic childhood illness you probably would not be the doctor/surgeon you are today because what? You're a black woman? Yeah, I didn't get that. I honestly did not feel Jo was implying that... I felt she was just trying connect based on their shared difficult childhoods that make you tough which is something you need to be be in order to be a good surgeon.

 

So yeah, it was Webber, without his scene I would not have gotten it.

Edited November 29, 2015 by represent

[izabella]

I think Amelia's history and personality is that she tends to think the worst of people, doesn't trust people, and she isn't likely to give anyone the benefit of the doubt.  I think she saw that Stephanie disobeyed her orders, and asked Jo to step in for her behind Amelia's back.  I think she would naturally believe that Jo, as a fellow intern and friend of Stephanie's, would know Stephanie a lot better than Amelia knows Stephanie and would be far more likely to know if Steph was lying than Amelia, her boss, would.

 

So, it never crossed my mind that Amelia was potentially biased against Steph in that instance because of race.  They shoehorned that point into the story to try to make a heavy-handed episode about white privilege. 

 

Same for the heart patient who didn't automatically accept that this screaming doctor who knew nothing about the patient's case was a better option to listen to than the doctor that had been treating the patient up until the point Maggie walked in and started yelling. 

 

It would have worked better for me if it wasn't all so contrived and clunky.

Edited November 29, 2015 by izabella

[timimouse]

What I've noticed is that the people who seem to understand Amelia better are those who watched Private Practice, but that's not a show I watched so I'm not familiar with her past. So I don't think it's right that they try to bring her character in as if we've known her for years. As they did with all the other newbies on the show, we need to learn about her to care about her and I don't think that's been done.