Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

Eyes High · March 9, 2016

Heh, apparently Daryl/Carol is my TWD version of Dean/Cas on SPN. Love(d) their close relationship, wouldn't have been upset or surprised if it turned romantic, but would be equally fine with them staying super close but not romantic.

And lately TPTB have kept them apart and minimized their shared screen time. :( I have a terrible track record with "shipping". Perhaps that's why I don't get so invested... :D

My sense is with a lot of popular fan ships that the writers are determined will never ever happen in canon, the writers are fine with teasing it up to a point while remaining insistent that it will never happen. That leads the fans to get more and more worked up about how it is obviously going to be a thing and how dare the writers not go there, etc. etc. Eventually, a point is reached where either the writers capitulate to the shippers in a way that destroys the ship (by painting the relationship as dysfunctional or whatever), or where the writers decide to separate the characters and minimize any shared screen time to avoid fanning the shipping flames and to shut the shippers up. I'm not saying this is what happened with Daryl/Carol, but it wouldn't surprise me; I've seen it happen before.

Timetoread · March 9, 2016

My sense is with a lot of popular fan ships that the writers are determined will never ever happen in canon, the writers are fine with teasing it up to a point while remaining insistent that it will never happen. That leads the fans to get more and more worked up about how it is obviously going to be a thing and how dare the writers not go there, etc. etc. Eventually, a point is reached where either the writers capitulate to the shippers in a way that destroys the ship (by painting the relationship as dysfunctional or whatever), or where the writers decide to separate the characters and minimize any shared screen time to avoid fanning the shipping flames and to shut the shippers up. I'm not saying this is what happened with Daryl/Carol, but it wouldn't surprise me; I've seen it happen before.

I want to point out here that the Richonne ship sailed because some viewers saw what the writers actually were putting into the narrative.

Eyes High · March 9, 2016

I want to point out here that the Richonne ship sailed because some viewers saw what the writers actually were putting into the narrative.

I think Scott Gimple has also said that he wanted to do Richonne but couldn't demand it until he became the showrunner. I'm talking about ships that the writers are 100% against to which fans get extremely attached.

RedheadZombie · March 9, 2016

I am confused by the fandom's insistence that there should be some sort of collective moment of silence over the death of Jessie. Rick did not know that woman. He just met her, thought she was hot, and they kissed. This was not some great love for the ages. He had no real functional relationship with her or her sons, nor did she with his kids - other than babysitting Judith at Carol's bequest. I am more in mourning over Noah than Jessie.

I simply don't get this heartfelt belief that Michonne has to take backseat to Jessie. Why? Because Jessie was blonde and pretty and therefore more worthy of love and attention from the opposite sex? Why assign so much gravity to the two weeks of unconsummated lust she and Rick had but then say that Richonne came out of nowhere, even though they have been friends and roomates for three freaking seasons and Rick's kids are - unbeknownst to him even, assigning her the role of their mother. If Jessie spent three seasons with Rick and raising Carl as her own I guess we'd want him to jump in the grave with her.

I am trying to be diplomatic but I just can't shake this dread and revulsion at what seems to be a widely held belief that Michonne is not woman enough for Rick and is wholly inferior to any white woman who shares two minutes of screen time with Rick. That Michonne is a thing, a tool, a helper, a nanny, an attack dog, but not a real woman and completely inappropriate as a love interest.

I haven't really seen many expressing concern over Jessie. In fact, it seems more like people threw "let's watch Jessie and her family get eaten" parties. I do think there was a little confusion about the time jump between Rick/Jessie and Rick/Michonne, and I think it was easy to miss if you weren't really paying attention. Let's face it, most people don't watch this show the way we do.

Having said that, I only post here and a gossip site which occasionally covers the show. I've actually seen more vitriol directed Carol's way regarding Daryl, than Michonne regarding Rick. I personally didn't want Richonne because Ric's romantic interests have a 100% death rate. But I'm liking it for now.

I rarely read comment sections because they attract racists, bigots, and trolls. For instance, I read an article on Erin Andrews' lawsuit on CNN's site, and the comments were beyond atrocious. She's a money-grubber who's capitalized on being secretly recorded, and she dresses like a whore anyway, etc. So I bet there are a lot of nasty comments regarding Michonne and Rick in places like that.

But, and maybe it's a reflection of the fact I only post where intelligent and considerate folks post, I've seen zero backlash for Michonne. Not even any veiled comments. It's a little funny, because the very people who've insisted a dark-skinned black woman would never be paired with the white hero, are rather quiet about the pairing. Probably because they're still holding their breath.

And if someone's not "enough" for their partner, there are many comments saying Rick's not man enough for Michonne.

In general, I find the friendships so much more moving than the romances on this show. I think the most compelling relationship, by far, was Rick and Shane. And I loved Carol and Daryl, and Daryl and Rick. Unfortunately the first is dead, and the last two are somewhat forgotten.

Ocean Chick · March 9, 2016

My whole schtick with the Jessick thing was that we spent a year of our time (not za time) with Rick casting longing glances and trying to protect and kiss a woman, who we never even saw him mourn. I know in tv time he didn't know her very long, but why spend so much of OUR time on her and her family if in the end, they don't matter? And why make a large time leap between episodes and have RIck jump into bed with another woman who many people in the GA thought he only had a friendship with? We spend many episodes on a woman and a relationship that doesn't matter, and neglect to advance the one that does. Same thing with Carol and Tobin. I'm sure there are a lot of the GA who had to search their memories to even remember who he was, and if Carol had ever met him before. It's all just so random, and it bugs. It's not good story telling.

Timetoread · March 9, 2016

o

My whole schtick with the Jessick thing was that we spent a year of our time (not za time) with Rick casting longing glances and trying to protect and kiss a woman, who we never even saw him mourn. I know in tv time he didn't know her very long, but why spend so much of OUR time on her and her family if in the end, they don't matter? And why make a large time leap between episodes and have RIck jump into bed with another woman who many people in the GA thought he only had a friendship with? We spend many episodes on a woman and a relationship that doesn't matter, and neglect to advance the one that does. Same thing with Carol and Tobin. I'm sure there are a lot of the GA who had to search their memories to even remember who he was, and if Carol had ever met him before. It's all just so random, and it bugs. It's not good story telling.

On this we agree. I think this show often suffers from sloppy storytelling and missed opportunities. There are a few scenes that I keep holding my breath to see:

- Carol telling Daryl and/or Rick what REALLY happened to Lizzie and Mika.

- Rick telling Michonne about Shane and how much it still hurts him that his friend wanted to kill him, the he DID kill his friend and in the midst of the betrayal, violence and hatred, that he STILL loves his brother Shane and wishes he were still here.

- Michonne telling Rick about her son.

- Maggie speaking about the family she had and lost.

- Hell, even Abe speaking his own pain aloud.

I think this show is victim to it's own genre. The brutality of the subject matter attracts one viewer but the medium (television) begs for drama so that you CARE what happens. It walks this line alot but then falls on the wrong side in order to stay true to the comic. But the comic is a comic and this is a nightime television drama. Case in point - I think the viewers would have been so much more satisfied if Michonne had finished off the Governor. We know she struck a fatal blow but then it ended with a character we barely knew finishing it. I believe we would have ALL cheered for days if Michonne skewered him and performed the move she tried in their first fight, the spinning loping off of his head so that he was just another head that would have been in his fishbowl. It would have been EPIC. It was earned and we deserved it. But in mid scene the show catered to the OTHER audience. They need some better writers.

And as a Richonner who is still occupying Cloud 9, I agree I would have liked to see a brief moment of even surpressed attraction between Rick and Michonne that clearly telegraphed that this was going to happen at some point soon.

jsbt · March 9, 2016

I've said it before - I've never been a huge fan of the comics despite reading them for a good long stretch out of habit. I think Robert Kirkman had a great concept and some great characters but his writing is relentlessly adolescent, nihilistic and wildly over the top. I think the show improves on not only the story all the characters, especially Michonne. Year after year Scott Gimple (and before him Glen Mazzara, Darabont, etc.) has had the unenviable task of appeasing the hardcore comic fanbase and the 800-pound gorilla that is the book's creator while also trying to make a grounded and emotional human drama, toning down a number of incredibly broad cartoonish characters from the book and making them relatable. I think this was done with Shane first, who became a very fleshed-out character vs. the Cheatin' Buddy from the first arc of the comics; I think it was also done with Lori despite the legions who hated her. Lori was a deeply shrewish character in the comics and while the show's Lori was conflicted and contradictory at times and I know she drove a lot of people nuts, I never did not believe Sarah Wayne Callies' really impassioned and dedicated performance - I thought she did great work and gave her layers and sympathy.

I also thought they did surprisingly well with the Governor despite many complaints about that storyline - I think they did the right thing showing Phillip first, I think David Morrissey did a great job and I was glad he wasn't just some post-apocalyptic pirate pillager a la the comics. I think the same was done with Abraham and Rosita over time (and is still ongoing with fits and starts), and I think they made types like Jesus and Morgan (dude, they do kung fu!) palatable and viable in this world vs. the pages of Image Comics.

I think they regularly diverge from the comics as much as they can and will continue to do so - I think the show is so monolithic in pop culture now, much more of an institution now than the books that it can pretty much set its own course these days. I don't think it's as constrained or hidebound by comic narrative as it used to be, I think that break point was the end of Season 3 when they made a very specific choice with Andrea. They follow some of the outline but they forge their own path and that's how I think it should be.

There have been mistakes and one of them, I think, was strictly adhering to the comic timeline with the Jessie dalliance. I understood its role in the narrative at the beginning as Rick was going bananas so I tolerated it because I knew it wouldn't last, and I am beyond thrilled Richonne is upon us. But I did feel there was some whiplash despite the time shift. I wish they'd put in a single scene before Jessie got et of just showing Rick pulling back from that romantic flirtation or recognizing it for what it was, a symptom of his breakdown upon arriving in Alexandria. Or a simple conversation about it. Otherwise I would just as soon they lifted it out, because looking at it now having Rick continue it into Season 6 after getting walloped by Michonne and starting to get his shit together in 6A sticks out like a weird, weird off-note that's only in there because someone stamped their feet and insisted. It breaks the flow for me and just shows why the show should keep straying from the comic, IMO.

Edited March 9, 2016 by jsbt

Pete Martell · March 9, 2016

My whole schtick with the Jessick thing was that we spent a year of our time (not za time) with Rick casting longing glances and trying to protect and kiss a woman, who we never even saw him mourn. I know in tv time he didn't know her very long, but why spend so much of OUR time on her and her family if in the end, they don't matter? And why make a large time leap between episodes and have RIck jump into bed with another woman who many people in the GA thought he only had a friendship with? We spend many episodes on a woman and a relationship that doesn't matter, and neglect to advance the one that does. Same thing with Carol and Tobin. I'm sure there are a lot of the GA who had to search their memories to even remember who he was, and if Carol had ever met him before. It's all just so random, and it bugs. It's not good story telling.

Gimple or someone else in PTB said that Jessie was just supposed to be the woman who would help him move on from Lori. I think she was supposed to be a symbol for Rick, not an actual relationship. The main problem is that's a cheap way to use a female character, and the character herself was poorly drawn and the actress had no chemistry with Andrew Lincoln.

I wonder if that's also the reason they cut short any aftermath following the death of the Andersons - because they realized the whole thing was just shit. It's just a shame that it feels like any aftermath for Carl was also sacrificed.

I think they'd established enough of a bond between Rick and Michonne to where it didn't feel completely random, but a part of me wonders if they didn't do even more because they knew it would cause resistance and backlash. I felt like they built up Michonne's side a fair amount this season. Rick not as much, but again I wonder if they were afraid of backlash. If they decided the main way to start the relationship was to just pull the trigger.

Pete Martell · March 9, 2016

On this we agree. I think this show often suffers from sloppy storytelling and missed opportunities. There are a few scenes that I keep holding my breath to see:

- Carol telling Daryl and/or Rick what REALLY happened to Lizzie and Mika.

- Rick telling Michonne about Shane and how much it still hurts him that his friend wanted to kill him, the he DID kill his friend and in the midst of the betrayal, violence and hatred, that he STILL loves his brother Shane and wishes he were still here.

- Michonne telling Rick about her son.

- Maggie speaking about the family she had and lost.

- Hell, even Abe speaking his own pain aloud.

I think this show is victim to it's own genre. The brutality of the subject matter attracts one viewer but the medium (television) begs for drama so that you CARE what happens. It walks this line alot but then falls on the wrong side in order to stay true to the comic. But the comic is a comic and this is a nightime television drama. Case in point - I think the viewers would have been so much more satisfied if Michonne had finished off the Governor. We know she struck a fatal blow but then it ended with a character we barely knew finishing it. I believe we would have ALL cheered for days if Michonne skewered him and performed the move she tried in their first fight, the spinning loping off of his head so that he was just another head that would have been in his fishbowl. It would have been EPIC. It was earned and we deserved it. But in mid scene the show catered to the OTHER audience. They need some better writers.

Do you mean other audience as in viewers who wouldn't want to see Michonne get the kill?

I felt like the Lily thing was either the show realizing she was a total victim of the Governor and was about to basically kill herself after also doing nothing to stop her daughter's death, and they wanted her to have at least one moment, or it was supposed to be dramatic poignancy (the woman he wanted to change for ends him), or they just wanted to keep a woman named Lily as his killer.

I sort of wanted it to be just Michonne too, for Andrea, although I guess at least they never went into the mindset that some fans had that she should have never hurt The Governor unless she had a "good reason" or a "reason." That used to annoy me a lot when some fans were so unhappy with her killing walker Penny in season 3...like she'd just gone in there and shat on his doorstep, rather than seeing a sick perversion and putting it down.

There are some things I can understand why they don't talk about it. I don't think Carol will ever tell anyone about Lizzie and Mika unless she's completely broken and lost. (I do wonder if we may get this at some point given that Daryl asked her and she refused to talk about it) I don't think Rick can ever talk about Shane, because of Judith, and because it hurts too much. But other things, like Rick learning about Andre, I need to see. And I will never, ever understand why they never had Maggie mention Beth for most of 4B and 5A. I will never understand it. And they didn't even seem to have any real reason for it - it just felt like a complete oversight. The character deserved better.

I think the criticism from the early days of too much talking has made them cut a lot of that out. They get the balance right sometimes, and then other times we just seem to have to assume a lot or ignore a lot, especially in terms of relationships (Tara and Denise falling in love, just how much Rosita was in love with Abraham, etc.).

SimoneS · March 10, 2016

I've said it before - I've never been a huge fan of the comics despite reading them for a good long stretch out of habit. I think Robert Kirkman had a great concept and some great characters but his writing is relentlessly adolescent, nihilistic and wildly over the top. I think the show improves on not only the story all the characters, especially Michonne...

There have been mistakes and one of them, I think, was strictly adhering to the comic timeline with the Jessie dalliance. I understood its role in the narrative at the beginning as Rick was going bananas so I tolerated it because I knew it wouldn't last, and I am beyond thrilled Richonne is upon us. But I did feel there was some whiplash despite the time shift. I wish they'd put in a single scene before Jessie got et of just showing Rick pulling back from that romantic flirtation or recognizing it for what it was, a symptom of his breakdown upon arriving in Alexandria. Or a simple conversation about it. Otherwise I would just as soon they lifted it out, because looking at it now having Rick continue it into Season 6 after getting walloped by Michonne and starting to get his shit together in 6A sticks out like a weird, weird off-note that's only in there because someone stamped their feet and insisted. It breaks the flow for me and just shows why the show should keep straying from the comic, IMO.

I think that the show writers have been excellent and that their storytelling and character development has been much better than the comics. It helps that their casting has been strong. I was doing a marathon and was struck by how compelling the show is.

I was enjoying the Jessie storyline thinking at last Rick is going to get laid and have a short bit of happiness. Now that I know that they were always planning to do Richonne, I don't get why they wrote it as if Rick was falling in love. It could have been an attraction that made him realize that he had feelings for Michonne. He should have pulled back after kissing Jessie (I think that the implication that they slept together was there). This would have made the transition to Richonne smoother. Instead he is mooning over Jessie as he cutting off her hand to free Carl. Ack, what where they thinking? They should have also made it clear on the show that it had been two or even better three months since Jessie died. Despite this, I am happy with Richonne.

Edited March 10, 2016 by SimoneS

eejm · March 10, 2016

One of the most unique aspects of this show initially was the focus on all of the sibling relationships - Andrea/Amy (short-lived, but it affected Andrea for a long time), Tyreese/Sasha, Maggie/Beth, Daryl/Merle, and even Carl/Judith. I was really dismayed when literally all but one of these sibling relationships died off over the years, many of them before the relationship was truly explored in and out. I've always seen Daryl and Carol as another of these sibling pairs united not only by their abusive pasts, but also because the ZA kind of changed their lives for the better. These two just "get" each other and love one another deeply, but to me it's never been a romantic or sexual love. I miss that bond and how close those two were at the farm and in the prison. Discussing what happened with Mika and Lizzie would be a wonderful scene for Carol and Daryl to share, but these two are so far apart now that I don't know how it would come about.

Timetoread · March 10, 2016

Do you mean other audience as in viewers who wouldn't want to see Michonne get the kill?

No, the OTHER audience I was referring to is the audience that watches this show as an extension of the comics. They are comic book people, they like TWD as it was imagined by Kirkman, they want the action to lay out like it does in the comics, and even though they understand and accpet some differences, for the most part they are looking for the story to play out as they have read it. Now I am not necessarily saying that this audience would not have enjoyed an epic Michonne kill of the Governor (particularly because it is my understanding that what Michonne did to the Governor in the comic was pretty epic), but that the writers constantly feel this push and pull of the organic development of the television TWD and staying true to the source material. It is just my opinion that this is often to the detriment of the show. It is a SHOW, it is not a comic. Rick and Michonne in the comic come straight from Kirkman to ink, whereas these characters flow through living, breathing actors who bring their own interpretations and feelings about each thing. Michonne is a woman. Kirkman can write a man's imagination of what a woman would think in a situation. Danai Guirira, an actual woman however, would portray it from her own natural experience and actual man, Andy Lincoln would respond and play off of what he gets from her. And so on and so on with all the other real live people intepreting their roles and riffing off of each other. There is no way that the show can stay identical to the comics.

Gimple it seems has finally found his sealegs and is content to push his agenda when what is working on screen steps outside of what is on the page. There is not one doubt in my mind that Richonne would not have happened at all if Andy and Danai had no chemistry in front of the camera or if the actors hated each other. But the opposite happened, even when they were not liking each other, there was this magnetic heat that was coming off of them in their scenes together. It's not something that you can make up but if you see it happening, you'd be a damn fool to let it go to waste.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Timetoread

mandolin · March 10, 2016

I think Gimple does a lot better than the comics in many cases, but I also remember that Grady was NOT in the comics. That was the weakest arc of this show for me, EVER.

Gimple it seems has finally found his sealegs and is content to push his agenda when what is working on screen steps outside of what is on the page. There is not one doubt in my mind that Richonne would not have happened at all if Andy and Danai had no chemistry in front of the camera or if the actors hated each other. But the opposite happened, even when they were not liking each other, there was this magnetic heat that was coming off of them in their scenes together. It's not something that you can make up but if you see it happening, you'd be a damn fool to let it go to waste.

I agree with this, and am glad for it.

Eyes High · March 10, 2016

I think Gimple does a lot better than the comics in many cases, but I also remember that Grady was NOT in the comics. That was the weakest arc of this show for me, EVER.

Agreed, and agreed.

I'm willing to cut Gimple a lot of slack because of the way the female characters are now written, especially Carol. Show me a show where a middle-aged formerly abused housewife goes Rambo-meets-Jack-Bauer-meets-MacGyver on a cannibal compound and almost singlehandedly rescues her crew and I'll show you a fan for life. The show version of Carol doesn't exist in the comics. I'd even argue, given the way Kirkman writes his female characters, that the show version of Carol, easily the most cunning and most ruthless member of Team Rick, couldn't exist in the comics.

Still, well...Grady. The only good thing that came out of that mess, in my opinion, was the walker van sequence with Daryl and Carol, which was pretty cool.

One of the most unique aspects of this show initially was the focus on all of the sibling relationships

I think this might be a casualty of cast bloat. Even the canon romantic relationships don't get much play apart from Glenn/Maggie, let alone the platonic friendships (Eugene/Tara, Daryl/Carol, etc.). Eugene and Tara's friendship is adorable, but they haven't spoken two words to each other in several episodes. Carol and Daryl haven't interacted since last season.

Bizarrely, for a show with molasses-slow pacing, the show doesn't seem to allow characters time to breathe and get to know each other or to allow relationships to develop organically. Everything's in service of plot, plot, plot. I feel as if Rick's relationship with Deanna was more developed than his relationships with many other members of Team Rick.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Eyes High

AngelaHunter · March 10, 2016

Case in point - I think the viewers would have been so much more satisfied if Michonne had finished off the Governor. We know she struck a fatal blow but then it ended with a character we barely knew finishing it.

Michonne deliberately inflicted a fatal injury and left him turn (just as the Gov. did to Merle) a fate worse than death to most of us, I'm sure. Lily finishing him off could be called a mercy kill in the ZA. Michonne had no mercy for him.

Pete Martell · March 10, 2016

I think this might be a casualty of cast bloat. Even the canon romantic relationships don't get much play apart from Glenn/Maggie, let alone the platonic friendships (Eugene/Tara, Daryl/Carol, etc.). Eugene and Tara's friendship is adorable, but they haven't spoken two words to each other in several episodes. Carol and Daryl haven't interacted since last season.

Bizarrely, for a show with molasses-slow pacing, the show doesn't seem to allow characters time to breathe and get to know each other or to allow relationships to develop organically. Everything's in service of plot, plot, plot. I feel as if Rick's relationship with Deanna was more developed than his relationships with many other members of Team Rick.

For me, the cast bloat is one of the main reasons we get as many relationships and interactions as we do. If the Lizzie and Mika story had aired in season 2 or season 3, a handful of characters - the same few characters (Rick, Shane and Dale in season 2, Rick and Hershel and maybe Daryl or Glenn in season 3) would have talked at each other about what to do, while a bunch of random characters stood around, staring pensively. Dividing episodes among various cast members meant that they had a lot more character-driven focus on the story with Carol, and the girls, and to a point Tyreese.

I just wish that this could happen more often and not, as you say, in a plot-driven way. For instance, I was very moved by the hug goodbye between Glenn and Tara in the last episode, as they both know this may be the last time they see each other, and they both know they've just crossed a line they never wanted to cross. We don't really see much of their relationship in recent days, so that one small moment meant a lot to me.

The show is really lucky that all of the cast are inspired enough to take their work so seriously and seem to play everything they have into these types of moments. It's one of the reasons I still get angry when I hear people just talk about how terrible the acting is or how no one cares about the acting, it's just about special effects. Without the cast I think this show would have been canceled after season 2.

jsbt · March 10, 2016

I think there are a lot of character moments and beats for relationship stuff, but I also think that once the cast became a massive ensemble as the Gimple era really took hold in Season 4 they started shifting to a vignette sort of format - different people among the multitude began getting different spotlights week to week. One week it's Abraham or Sasha, the next Carol, and so forth. It is the only way they can maintain a cast of that size, even one where people keep dying. (Lost did the same thing in fairness but I never liked the show, and unlike TWD I felt almost everyone there was ultimately just whim to plot, to the point that Zuleikha Robinson's character had no real point beyond being another 'mysterious newcomer' who had to be literally blown up in the final season due to disinterest.) Stories, subplots and individual character drives wax and wane within that flow and I don't think they get everything right or always have enough time, but I think they do as good a job of maintaining a cast of that elephantine size as anything on primetime. The only other thing that comes close in scope and rhythm is traditional soap operas, frankly.

It's damned if they do or don't - some people say it's all plot, others say they talk and mope too much. I think it's a medium. I definitely don't think the show is utterly plot-driven and hasn't been in... well, I'm not sure if it ever was that focused on plot vs. character, with the exception of some parts of Season 3.

Edited March 10, 2016 by jsbt

eejm · March 14, 2016

The Carol and Daryl scene tonight just seals for me their relationship as a very, very close pair of siblings who have been through things that no one else has experienced and understand each other in a way no one else does. I hope we see more scene just like this one.

RedheadZombie · March 14, 2016

I'm willing to cut Gimple a lot of slack because of the way the female characters are now written, especially Carol. Show me a show where a middle-aged formerly abused housewife goes Rambo-meets-Jack-Bauer-meets-MacGyver on a cannibal compound and almost singlehandedly rescues her crew and I'll show you a fan for life. The show version of Carol doesn't exist in the comics. I'd even argue, given the way Kirkman writes his female characters, that the show version of Carol, easily the most cunning and most ruthless member of Team Rick, couldn't exist in the comics.

It amazes me that a show that started with very black and white gender roles has evolved to having such unique women. Not only is Carol unseen in television, Maggie is a woman who fights just as well as her husband, and that husband doesn't try to curtail her actions. She's strong, he knows it, and he trusts her judgment. Even Maggie's father, an old-fashioned religious man, never attempted patriarchal bullshit on her. Michonne was stronger than her man physically and mentally. And as much as I disliked the soap opera response to Abe's dumping, Rosita is a quintessential soldier. Tara has grown from a wanna-be cop who realized she didn't have the nerve, to a good and dependable fighter, who's maybe too quick to risk her life for others. And while Jessie was a battered woman who stayed with a man who battered her children, she turned into a warrior when her house was invaded. The weak, or those who were unwilling to kill, were the men.

No, the OTHER audience I was referring to is the audience that watches this show as an extension of the comics. They are comic book people, they like TWD as it was imagined by Kirkman, they want the action to lay out like it does in the comics, and even though they understand and accpet some differences, for the most part they are looking for the story to play out as they have read it. Now I am not necessarily saying that this audience would not have enjoyed an epic Michonne kill of the Governor (particularly because it is my understanding that what Michonne did to the Governor in the comic was pretty epic), but that the writers constantly feel this push and pull of the organic development of the television TWD and staying true to the source material.

I get what you were saying earlier about how satisfying it would have been if Michonne was the sole killer of the Governor. But I really liked how it played out. I wasn't a big fan of Tara's sister, but I'm glad that she finally realized the wreckage "Brian" brought to her family, and punished him for it. As to Michonne's actions in the comics - I don't know them. I do know that it was implied strongly that in the comic the Governor does far more horrific things to Michonne than on the show. So in that case, I would understand the need for satisfaction. But on the show, Michonne was nowhere near the Governor's biggest victim. Some people were upset that Maggie wasn't given the privilege of killing the little dictator. Not only for the threatened rape scenes, but for the torture of Glenn, and the decapitation of Hershel. I wouldn't have minded if Glenn was the killer, but people were complaining at the time that Glenn had made Maggie's attack about him, so that probably would have exacerbated the problem.

I think Michonne was given the honor of giving the death blow out of her friendship for Andrea. The audience may have hated Andrea, but Michonne didn't. Michonne also had the emotional task of putting down Hershel's head, which is kind of an honor, too (wow, that would sound so bizarre if this were any other show).

The show is really lucky that all of the cast are inspired enough to take their work so seriously and seem to play everything they have into these types of moments. It's one of the reasons I still get angry when I hear people just talk about how terrible the acting is or how no one cares about the acting, it's just about special effects. Without the cast I think this show would have been canceled after season 2.

They're also lucky that the cast essentially lives together during taping, and therefore have genuine friendships that translate on camera. It's hard to please the fans because some come only for the carnage, and some are drawn more to the characters. Unlike most, I really loved season two and the farm. It has some of my favorite episodes - Cherokee Rose, Chupacabra, Pretty Much Dead Already, Nebraska, 18 Miles Out, Better Angels. Those are episodes that I watch over and over again, and it's not for the action. I think only The Grove comes close to matching these earlier episodes.

Pete Martell · March 14, 2016

They're also lucky that the cast essentially lives together during taping, and therefore have genuine friendships that translate on camera. It's hard to please the fans because some come only for the carnage, and some are drawn more to the characters. Unlike most, I really loved season two and the farm. It has some of my favorite episodes - Cherokee Rose, Chupacabra, Pretty Much Dead Already, Nebraska, 18 Miles Out, Better Angels. Those are episodes that I watch over and over again, and it's not for the action. I think only The Grove comes close to matching these earlier episodes.

Oh, don't get me wrong - I actually enjoyed season 2 a lot. Not so much some of the speechifying and morality plays, or Lori's head games or some of the mess with Andrea, but many other parts (Daryl at his best, most of Carol's characterization, Shane's slow mental breakdown, the start of ruthless Rick, Maggie/Glenn), yes. 18 Miles Out is one of my very favorite episodes. For me season 2 and season 4 are the best seasons, with the last 3/4 of season 3 and the end of season 5 as the worst.

It's just that the show was really in the doghouse at the time - it was more popular than ever to shit on the show and act like it was a failure and should never have gone on without Darabont. Even now that era is a buzzword for terrible material or that the show has always been terrible since, and so on. They'd also basically expected viewers to have patience throughout season 2, which is rare with TV shows now.

I think without the cast there to keep emotional bonds with viewers, a lot of viewers might have moved on.

Eyes High · March 14, 2016

Oh, don't get me wrong - I actually enjoyed season 2 a lot. Not so much some of the speechifying and morality plays, or Lori's head games or some of the mess with Andrea, but many other parts (Daryl at his best, most of Carol's characterization, Shane's slow mental breakdown, the start of ruthless Rick, Maggie/Glenn), yes. 18 Miles Out is one of my very favorite episodes. For me season 2 and season 4 are the best seasons, with the last 3/4 of season 3 and the end of season 5 as the worst.

It's just that the show was really in the doghouse at the time - it was more popular than ever to shit on the show and act like it was a failure and should never have gone on without Darabont. Even now that era is a buzzword for terrible material or that the show has always been terrible since, and so on. They'd also basically expected viewers to have patience throughout season 2, which is rare with TV shows now.

I think without the cast there to keep emotional bonds with viewers, a lot of viewers might have moved on.

There was something that I didn't like about Season 2--all the standing around and talking about morality with no sense of momentum--and I couldn't describe what I so disliked about it until one fan cruelly but accurately summed it up as akin to "bad community theatre." You also had a lot of characters played by actors who were middling at best, which didn't help. The writing for the female characters was also a mess, of course, but that's true of a lot of shows; what pushed it over the edge for me was the terrible pacing, dialogue, and (on occasions) acting.

It amazes me that a show that started with very black and white gender roles has evolved to having such unique women. Not only is Carol unseen in television, Maggie is a woman who fights just as well as her husband, and that husband doesn't try to curtail her actions. She's strong, he knows it, and he trusts her judgment. Even Maggie's father, an old-fashioned religious man, never attempted patriarchal bullshit on her. Michonne was stronger than her man physically and mentally. And as much as I disliked the soap opera response to Abe's dumping, Rosita is a quintessential soldier. Tara has grown from a wanna-be cop who realized she didn't have the nerve, to a good and dependable fighter, who's maybe too quick to risk her life for others. And while Jessie was a battered woman who stayed with a man who battered her children, she turned into a warrior when her house was invaded. The weak, or those who were unwilling to kill, were the men.

Very well put. It is interesting, given TWD's extremely patriarchal beginnings as a show in terms of writing and characterization, that we now have a variety of well-rounded, non-stereotypical female characters as well as non-stereotypical male characters. You have "strong" male and female characters, you have "weak" male and female characters. You have nonviolent, pacifist, or even cowardly men and brutally violent women. You have nefarious male and female villains. You have noble and pure male and female characters. The most sensitive, kind, pure and innocent person on the show is a dude. The most calculating and the most brutally violent person on the show (even if she seems to be losing her edge) is a lady.

I love that Deanna's gender was never once an issue when it came to her leadership of Alexandria (at least, that I can recall). I also love that Maggie is stepping into a leadership role, and that Rick (for now, at least) is 100% supportive of her assuming this role. I know Eugene, Morgan, Tobin, etc. get a lot of flak for not being overly fond of violence, but I think it's refreshing.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Eyes High

Pete Martell · March 15, 2016

There was something that I didn't like about Season 2--all the standing around and talking about morality with no sense of momentum--and I couldn't describe what I so disliked about it until one fan cruelly but accurately summed it up as akin to "bad community theatre." You also had a lot of characters played by actors who were middling at best, which didn't help. The writing for the female characters was also a mess, of course, but that's true of a lot of shows; what pushed it over the edge for me was the terrible pacing, dialogue, and (on occasions) acting.

Very well put. It is interesting, given TWD's extremely patriarchal beginnings as a show in terms of writing and characterization, that we now have a variety of well-rounded, non-stereotypical female characters as well as non-stereotypical male characters. You have "strong" male and female characters, you have "weak" male and female characters. You have nonviolent, pacifist, or even cowardly men and brutally violent women. You have nefarious male and female villains. You have noble and pure male and female characters. The most sensitive, kind, pure and innocent person on the show is a dude. The most calculating and the most brutally violent person on the show (even if she seems to be losing her edge) is a lady.

I love that Deanna's gender was never once an issue when it came to her leadership of Alexandria (at least, that I can recall). I also love that Maggie is stepping into a leadership role, and that Rick (for now, at least) is 100% supportive of her assuming this role. I know Eugene, Morgan, Tobin, etc. get a lot of flak for not being overly fond of violence, but I think it's refreshing.

Sometimes I think the speeches and monologues can fit a character or an episode, but then sometimes it just feels like characters talking so that the show will seem profound. A lot of the talks with Dale and with Hershel in season 2 felt that way to me. During "Nebraska," when there were endless talks in that bar, I kept willing Rick to finally start shooting...which he soon did. And then all the talking and talking about Randal. I think one of the problems for me with this in season 2 and in season 3 was that everyone was clumped together, so you just had talking and standing around and more talking. It's one of the reasons I am glad they began splitting characters up in season 4.

It's easy to mostly focus on the worst aspects of how TWD treats women or PoC, and I've done that myself (especially with Jessie, or with the whole interchangeable black man policy), but they definitely have come a long way - one of the main shows that actually took onboard criticism. A lot of shows, when realizing that Carol, a character who was never supposed to be important, was becoming more popular than the designated female leads, would have just killed her off, rather than further showcase her. The days of all the women being offcamera to let the men plan and talk (that early season 2 deleted scene), or of poor T-Dog having one scene where he talks about how hard it is to be a black man before he becomes an extra for the rest of the season, are mostly gone, and it's for the show's benefit. All the things that are often decried as "PC" or "multiculti" have only ever really been to the show's long-term benefit.

mightysparrow · March 15, 2016

I'm one of those people who doesn't think Rick is good enough for Michonne. Not even close. And I'm not happy about the character change that has taken place to make Michonne more acceptable as a member of the Grimes family. For one thing, Michonne has adopted this demure whisper that she uses to dole out sage wisdom. Doling out sage wisdom is all Michonne gets to do with someone outside the Grimes family, when she does get to speak at all. I can't remember the last time Michonne has challenged Rick on anything even when he's been completely wrong, even when he's flat out lied to her.

I couldn't believe it when Michonne whispered to Rick that she hoped they had killed Negan. The Michonne I knew wouldn't have walked into a dangerous situation like that without SOME recon. Is Michonne so determined to 'stand by her man' that she'll follow him into something as poorly planned as the attack on the Saviours?

I wish that Jessie had survived because she was the perfect woman for Rick. As far as I can see, Michonne has stopped being Michonne. She's Coimic!Andrea with dreadlocks now and I think it's a shame because Michonne was my favourite character.

Ocean Chick · March 15, 2016

I can't remember the last time Michonne has challenged Rick on anything even when he's been completely wrong, even when he's flat out lied to her.

How about the time she clocked him one when he was ranting on in front of Deanna and the ASZers? In show time, that was fairly recent, even if it seems ages in our time.

Pete Martell · March 15, 2016

I couldn't believe it when Michonne whispered to Rick that she hoped they had killed Negan. The Michonne I knew wouldn't have walked into a dangerous situation like that without SOME recon. Is Michonne so determined to 'stand by her man' that she'll follow him into something as poorly planned as the attack on the Saviours?

Is it really that OOC for Michonne? She once wandered into The Governor's private quarters looking to kill him, no backup, not telling anyone where she'd be going.

Rick asked her if he thought they were making the right choice, so I don't feel like he expected her to support him blindly. He never expected that of Lori either. Michonne's always been fine with telling Rick when she thinks he's wrong She did this repeatedly last season, telling him he was wrong about Alexandria many times over.

I think they all hoped they would have killed Negan. I took it less as Michonne being docile for Rick's plans and more as their knowing someone had to say it (so viewers would then be surprised when the guy came bursting out on the motorbike), and they gave her the line because she's a central character for viewers.

SimoneS · March 16, 2016

Is it really that OOC for Michonne? She once wandered into The Governor's private quarters looking to kill him, no backup, not telling anyone where she'd be going.

Rick asked her if he thought they were making the right choice, so I don't feel like he expected her to support him blindly. He never expected that of Lori either. Michonne's always been fine with telling Rick when she thinks he's wrong She did this repeatedly last season, telling him he was wrong about Alexandria many times over.

I can't remember the last time Michonne has challenged Rick on anything even when he's been completely wrong, even when he's flat out lied to her.

In addition to knocking out Rick, Michonne is the one who insisted that they had to find a stable home when Rick was fine just wandering around. Michonne insisted that they go to Washington and Rick eventually agreed. In the barn, Michonne told everyone that they were all going to take a chance on Aaron and go with them to Alexandria when Rick refused to trust him.

I don't think that Michonne challenged Rick on attacking Negan because she thinks that he is doing the right thing, especially if Negan is anything like Phillip. Not only did she go after Phillip on her own, she kept going off on her own searching for him after he attacked the prison, even after Rick and Daryl expressed their doubts about it and concern about the danger she was putting herself in so she seems in character to me.

ETA: Michonne could use some more screen time with other characters. I enjoyed her interactions with Rosita, Sasha, and Spencer. I would like to see more this.

Edited March 16, 2016 by SimoneS

Timetoread · March 16, 2016

Michonne was nowhere near the Governor's biggest victim.

Biggest victim? Probably not, that would go to the people who he killed. What happened with Maggie was skeevy but he did not really touch her, just threatened and menaced her. But did you forget that he put Michonne's head through his fishtank and nearly choked her out? That he sent Merle and Co to kill her in the woods which resulted in her being shot in the leg? That he started war with Rick's group as a means to fish her out and take her to the torture room he had prepared for her? That he knocked her unconcious and kidnapped her along with Hershel and then used her sword to murder Hershel right next to her? And oh, yeah, Andrea.

Nah, I'd say she had full on rights to get the kill.

Timetoread · March 16, 2016

I'm one of those people who doesn't think Rick is good enough for Michonne. Not even close. And I'm not happy about the character change that has taken place to make Michonne more acceptable as a member of the Grimes family. For one thing, Michonne has adopted this demure whisper that she uses to dole out sage wisdom. Doling out sage wisdom is all Michonne gets to do with someone outside the Grimes family, when she does get to speak at all. I can't remember the last time Michonne has challenged Rick on anything even when he's been completely wrong, even when he's flat out lied to her.

I couldn't believe it when Michonne whispered to Rick that she hoped they had killed Negan. The Michonne I knew wouldn't have walked into a dangerous situation like that without SOME recon. Is Michonne so determined to 'stand by her man' that she'll follow him into something as poorly planned as the attack on the Saviours?

I wish that Jessie had survived because she was the perfect woman for Rick. As far as I can see, Michonne has stopped being Michonne. She's Coimic!Andrea with dreadlocks now and I think it's a shame because Michonne was my favourite character.

Michonne has always been caring and softspoken - she's not a loud woman. She rarely if ever shouts. She took care of Andrea, not just being a friend but helping her when she was sick. When she broke into Phillip's house of pain and found Penny, before she knew the deal with Penny, she got on her knees and softened her voice as to comfort the little girl she intended to save. She not only volunteered to babysit Carl in Clear, when she saw what Carl wanted (that picture) she made sure to get it. Then she comforted Rick. Not, IMO, just to show that they have a bond and that she understands him, but that after seeing Carl's determination for the picture, she recognized that both of the Grimes males were suffering from major grief. What got her to the prison was seeing two people with babyfood get kidnapped by Merle. I believe that what drove her actions was that there was a baby waiting for that food and thus a group invested in protecting a baby. When at the prison - when she wasn't even allowed her own cell and slept outside, she helped legless Hershel in the field. She cried like a baby at Andrea's death. In Season 4, she joked and flirted with Daryl ("It matches your eyes.") Her backstory was that she was the mother of a baby.

The point is that the idea of Michonne as nothing more than a Terminator, impervious to all things human was never present in the narrative. She is basically a very soft, wise, loving and loyal woman by nature, but she has a fierceness and determination inside of her, coupled with fighting skills, that has ALSO made her evolve into a warrior. And yes she WILL stand by her man, that is her nature. But she'll knock him upside his head if his behavior puts people at risk, that is also her nature.

The mere fact that this evidence had to be mined in order to show that Michonne is both a warrior AND a woman is just another reason why I am happy that they are putting her in the context of a romantic relationship. For so many viewers, even those who like her, she's not considered to be a real person. And I think Rick is fine for her. He is not perfect but he is a good man. His heart is in the right place and he is good to the people he loves. At his craziest he would never, ever hurt her and if he tried, she's fully capable of stopping him. Rick isn't just making her a lover again, he is making her a mother again too. She is also his ride or die. So, whether he deserves it or not, Rick wins the day because he embraces and satisfies both aspects of her nature. Mike was put off by the emerging warrior. Rick needs and loves the whole of who she is.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Timetoread

mightysparrow · March 16, 2016

Michonne has always been caring and softspoken - she's not a loud woman. She rarely if ever shouts. She took care of Andrea, not just being a friend but helping her when she was sick. When she broke into Phillip's house of pain and found Penny, before she knew the deal with Penny, she got on her knees and softened her voice as to comfort the little girl she intended to save. She not only volunteered to babysit Carl in Clear, when she saw what Carl wanted (that picture) she made sure to get it. Then she comforted Rick. Not, IMO, just to show that they have a bond and that she understands him, but that after seeing Carl's determination for the picture, she recognized that both of the Grimes males were suffering from major grief. What got her to the prison was seeing two people with babyfood get kidnapped by Merle. I believe that what drove her actions was that there was a baby waiting for that food and thus a group invested in protecting a baby. When at the prison - when she wasn't even allowed her own cell and slept outside, she helped legless Hershel in the field. She cried like a baby at Andrea's death. In Season 4, she joked and flirted with Daryl ("It matches your eyes.") Her backstory was that she was the mother of a baby.

The point is that the idea of Michonne as nothing more than a Terminator, impervious to all things human was never present in the narrative. She is basically a very soft, wise, loving and loyal woman by nature, but she has a fierceness and determination inside of her, coupled with fighting skills, that has ALSO made her evolve into a warrior. And yes she WILL stand by her man, that is her nature. But she'll knock him upside his head if his behavior puts people at risk, that is also her nature.

The mere fact that this evidence had to be mined in order to show that Michonne is both a warrior AND a woman is just another reason why I am happy that they are putting her in the context of a romantic relationship. For so many viewers, even those who like her, she's not considered to be a real person. And I think Rick is fine for her. He is not perfect but he is a good man. His heart is in the right place and he is good to the people he loves. At his craziest he would never, ever hurt her and if he tried, she's fully capable of stopping him. Rick isn't just making her a lover again, he is making her a mother again too. She is also his ride or die. So, whether he deserves it or not, Rick wins the day because he embraces and satisfies both aspects of her nature. Mike was put off by the emerging warrior. Rick needs and loves the whole of who she is.

The argument that anyone who is against Michonne and Rick getting together sees Michonne as a 'Terminator' isn't going to work on me. I've been calling Michonne a caring woman who deserves love and affection from season 3, the same season Rick decided to hand Michonne over to the Governor to be raped and tortured.

I don't think Rick is a good man and I don't think he's good enough to wipe Michonne's shoes. I'm supposed to believe that all of that Jessie-business was simply to make it possible for Rick to love again? Please. He was sniffing after Jessie the minute he met her. He KILLED for Jessie. The reason Michonne had to knock his dumb-ass out was because he had lost his fucking mind OVER JESSIE. Now we're supposed to believe that 2 months after he hacked the arm off of the woman he jeopardized his children's future for, all is forgotten and Michonne is the love of his life. Once again, PLEASE.

Michonne is stuck in the wormhole that is the Grimes family, unable to have any connection with any one else. Michonne used to have friends and comrades. Now she has the Grimes family. Has she even told Rick about Andre? Or does Andre even count anymore now that Rick's 'made her a mother again'? Gimple might have forgotten Michonne's 'Peanut' but I haven't and I pray to god Michonne (or 'Andrea') hasn't either.

I'm a ride or die Michonne fan and I'm very sad that Michonne is stuck with a violent asshole when there are much more suitable prospects around. I don't subscribe to the belief that a White man is the greatest prize a dark-skinned Black woman can achieve. Maybe it's because I grew up surrounded by White guys and know they aren't that difficult to get. I would have loved to see Michonne with Morgan, not just because they both have the loss of a child in common, but because Lennie created more sparks with Danai in that 10 second power-bar scene than poor little Andrew Lincoln was capable of firing up in a whole love scene. Unfortunately, Morgan is trapped in Carol-hell.

I wonder what 'Momma Michonne' would think if she knew that Father-of-the-Year Rick blew Carl off after hearing his son refer to himself as the kid 'with a messed up face'. The Michonne I knew would never share a bed with someone who did that to her beloved Carl. But Andrea-with-dreads will.

Pete Martell · March 16, 2016

Michonne is stuck in the wormhole that is the Grimes family, unable to have any connection with any one else. Michonne used to have friends and comrades. Now she has the Grimes family. Has she even told Rick about Andre? Or does Andre even count anymore now that Rick's 'made her a mother again'? Gimple might have forgotten Michonne's 'Peanut' but I haven't and I pray to god Michonne (or 'Andrea') hasn't either.

I don't think they've forgotten, based on the sonogram scene with Maggie, but I do wonder if we'll see her mention it to Rick.

I always want to see Michonne with other people. I don't really care about seeing her with Morgan, as I hate what they've done to that character (late last season when Rick was in Jessieland I did sort of wonder if Michonne and Morgan might be an interesting couple), but I wish we saw more of her with Sasha, like we did last season. I feel like they've always sort of had Michonne between the Grimes family and the group, so I don't feel like that's changed just because of the romantic relationship, but it would always be nice to see more of her with group dynamics.

I agree with you in the sense that the Rick of the Jessie storyline doesn't deserve Michonne. I can totally understand why you wouldn't want Michonne to be with that man. I have decided to just forget the storyline existed, because I've always liked the relationship with Richonne and the chemistry between Andrew and Danai. But Rick is very lucky to have her and I hope that Gimple will realize that and have Rick treat her how she deserves to be treated.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Pete Martell

mightysparrow · March 16, 2016

I don't think they've forgotten, based on the sonogram scene with Maggie, but I do wonder if we'll see her mention it to Rick.

I always want to see Michonne with other people. I don't really care about seeing her with Morgan, as I hate what they've done to that character, but I wish we saw more of her with Sasha, like we did last season. I feel like they've always sort of had Michonne between the Grimes family and the group, so I don't feel like that's changed just because of the romantic relationship, but it would always be nice to see more of her with group dynamics.

I agree with you in the sense that the Rick of the Jessie storyline doesn't deserve Michonne. I can totally understand why you wouldn't want Michonne to be with that man. I have decided to just forget the storyline existed, because I've always liked the relationship with Richonne and the chemistry between Andrew and Danai. But Rick is very lucky to have her and I hope that Gimple will realize that and have Rick treat her how she deserves to be treated.

That sonogram moment (I can't call it a scene because Michonne doesn't get 'scenes' anymore), was beautiful and heartbreaking. Michonne's face spoke volumes in the few seconds she was on screen. I wish that 'The Same Boat' could have been about Michonne sharing her story about being a mother with Maggie instead of Chapter 1,000 of Carol's tale of woe.

Morgan would be a different character if he could spend time with Michonne. Spending time with Carol is fatal to Black men; she seems to suck the life out of them. She's a bit like sickle-cell anemia.

I can't pretend that Jessie didn't exist since the show spent so much time on her. She was a major part of Rick's story. Gimple thinks that suddenly throwing Michonne and Rick in bed together erases all that crap but even Carl raised an eyebrow when he found out that Michonne and Rick were together. Rick most certainly doesn't deserve Michonne and the best I can hope for is that it doesn't take him long to prove that to her.

Nashville · March 16, 2016

I can't pretend that Jessie didn't exist since the show spent so much time on her. She was a major part of Rick's story. Gimple thinks that suddenly throwing Michonne and Rick in bed together erases all that crap but even Carl raised an eyebrow when he found out that Michonne and Rick were together.

I don't think Carl's reaction had anything to do with a so-soon-after-Jessie perception of Richonne; in fact, I'd be surprised if Carl was truly aware of any Rick/Jessie relationship at all, beyond the fact that Rick put a round through her porchdick husband. I may be mistaken, but I don't recall ANY Rick/Carl discussions regarding any relationship with Jessie - and I'm certain that in terms of fanning up the perceptual flames of Ron's hatred towards the Grimes men, TPTB would have definitely amplified ANY kind of "So - your mom and my dad..." conversations between Carl and Ron.

I saw Carl's raised eyebrow as more indicative of mild surprise - with maybe a hint of "Geez, I was wondering how long it was going to take...." :)

SimoneS · March 16, 2016

Based on his comments in interviews, Gimple doesn't think that Rick and Michonne "suddenly" happened. He has been deliberately building up Rick and Michonne's friendship and bond as the groundwork for their romantic relationship. Unfortunately, Gimple views Jessie as a plot device to make Rick think about emotional and physical aspect of himself so he could be receptive to that moment with Michonne on the couch. I am not a fan of using female characters this way. I think that Jessie had potential as a character although not as Rick's long term love interest.

As for Carl, he was confused when Jesus talked about his "mom and dad" getting dressed. However, he didn't seem anything, but happy about his father and Michonne being together. I did wonder if he knew about Rick and Jessie when Rick told him "this is different" referring to his relationship with Michonne, but it is hard to know unless Gimple tells us in an interview or through the show.

Eyes High · March 16, 2016

Morgan would be a different character if he could spend time with Michonne. Spending time with Carol is fatal to Black men; she seems to suck the life out of them. She's a bit like sickle-cell anemia.

Given that Carol in the period since she has known Morgan has gone from a cool, competent badass who will casually threaten to murder a child to someone who shakes like a leaf at the prospect of lethal violence and whose hesitation almost got her and Maggie killed, which appears to be directly related to Morgan's influence on her, shouldn't you say that Morgan is sucking the life out of Carol, rather than the other way around? If anything, spending time with Morgan will be fatal to Carol, not the other way around; I have no doubt that if and when Carol does die, it will be due to the same hesitation we saw in 6x13. Carol's ability to take quick, ruthless action without hesitation or doubt has protected her in dangerous situations; if she loses that, she's done for.

As for Tyreese, spending time in proximity to Carol's ruthlessness ("I'm gonna kill people") had no effect on him whatsoever. He died as a victim of his own hesitation. If Carol had influenced him to be more pragmatic and less sentimental, he'd still be alive.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Eyes High

Timetoread · March 16, 2016

I don't subscribe to the belief that a White man is the greatest prize a dark-skinned Black woman can achieve.

Wow. Ok. I'm not going to try to convince anybody to like a character that they don't. I will note however, that I rather enjoy Michonne in the orbit of the Grimes family. I enjoy her relationship with Carl immensely. The two of them are filling a need in each other and it beautiful to watch and since the writers haven't brought in long term child characters for Carl to interact with, it gives us a vehicle to know him outside of the father/son relationship. I also don't hate Rick, not in general or even because of Jessie, so I also enjoy the partnership that they have built up. Long before they were lovers they were BFF's. Shane was Rick's but he "died" and Andrea was Michonne's but she died. Again they filled a need in each other - one that had nothing to do with romance.

As for the above quote, again wow, but let's get it straight right now that I don't subscribe to that either and never said as much. Michonne is not validated by her relationship with that "White Man", aka Rick. The victory, in my eyes is not that the white man is loving her, it is that ANY man is loving her. I can't think of a single show or movie - including black movies - off the top of my head where a woman who looks like Danai is the love interest. It is VERY significant that not only is this woman written into a romantic storyline but that it is with the show's lead character. It is even more significant that she got involved with this man off the heels of his prior crush (Jessie wasn't more than that IMO) who was a blonde beauty. Which takes out of the equation that he is just one of those dudes who is "into" black women or has jungle fever or who is down with the swirl or who wants some chocolate in his milk and other such concepts that turn the whole thing into fetishism. She is not Rick's type (nor is he hers, since nobody will ever mistake Andrew Lincoln for Aldis Hodge's doppleganger) but the show is trying something revolutionary by showing that a deep and meaningful romance can come from a deep and meaningful friendship, not just with whoever your genitals point to.

As for Morgan. Morgan is insane and has been since Season 3. I don't want a man who is removed from reality and has no problem fighting a woman until she is unconscious for Michonne. Morgan has shown ZERO interest in helping people or listening to other's concerns. Morgan is awful. I don't mind Michonne with a black man, but I don't want Michonne with a man BECAUSE he is black. We do agree however that I would love to see her AND all the cast interact with different people. I keep waiting for Michonne and Carol to exchange two words - they have more in common than they know. I liked Glen and Tara. I liked Glen and Noah. They had one scene of Abe with Michonne and I liked that too. I LOVED last years moment of WOC (Michonne, Rosita, Sasha) killing zombies in the woods. It was beautiful to behold. I don't see why Glenn and Eugene don't bond as Glenn was kind of a geek before the ZA. I liked Sasha and Daryl. There are so many combinations. I know that they are supposed to be collectively traumatized but these people slept together, killed together, mourned together and probably went to the bathroom together. I'd love to see little interactions that bring home that for all intents and purposes they are Family.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Timetoread

mightysparrow · March 16, 2016

Wow. Ok. I'm not going to try to convince anybody to like a character that they don't. I will note however, that I rather enjoy Michonne in the orbit of the Grimes family.  I enjoy her relationship with Carl immensely. The two of them are filling a need in each other and it beautiful to watch and since the writers haven't brought in long term child characters for Carl to interact with, it gives us a vehicle to know him outside of the father/son relationship.   I also don't hate Rick, not in general or even because of Jessie, so I also enjoy the partnership that they have built up. Long before they were lovers they were BFF's. Shane was Rick's but he "died" and Andrea was Michonne's but she died. Again they filled a need in each other - one that had nothing to do with romance.

As for the above quote, again wow, but let's get it straight right now that I don't subscribe to that either and never said as much. Michonne is not validated by her relationship with that "White Man", aka Rick. The victory, in my eyes is not that the white man is loving her, it is that ANY man is loving her.  I can't think of a single show or movie - including black movies - off the top of my head where a woman who looks like Danai is the love interest. It is VERY significant that not only is this woman written into a romantic storyline but that it is with the show's lead character. It is even more significant that she got involved with this man off the heels of his prior crush (Jessie wasn't more than that IMO) who was a blonde beauty. Which takes out of the equation that he is just one of those dudes who is "into" black women or has jungle fever or who is down with the swirl or who wants some chocolate in his milk and other such concepts that turn the whole thing into fetishism. She is not Rick's type (nor is he hers, since nobody will ever mistake Andrew Lincoln for Aldis Hodge's doppleganger) but the show is trying something revolutionary by showing that a deep and meaningful romance can come from a deep and meaningful friendship, not just with whoever your genitals point to.

As for Morgan. Morgan is insane and has been since Season 3. I don't want a man who is removed from reality and has no problem fighting a woman until she is unconscious for Michonne. Morgan has shown ZERO interest in helping people or listening to other's concerns. Morgan is awful. I don't mind Michonne with a black man, but I don't want Michonne with a man BECAUSE he is black. We do agree however that I would love to see her AND all the cast interact with different people.   I keep waiting for Michonne and Carol to exchange two words - they have more in common than they know. I liked Glen and Tara. I liked Glen and Noah. They had one scene of Abe with Michonne and I liked that too. I LOVED last years moment of WOC (Michonne, Tara, Sasha) killing zombies in the woods. It was beautiful to behold. I don't see why Glenn and Eugene don't bond as Glenn was kind of a geek before the ZA. I liked Sasha and Daryl. There are so many combinations. I know that they are supposed to be collectively traumatized but these people slept together, killed together, mourned together and probably went to the bathroom together. I'd love to see little interactions that bring home that for all intents and purposes they are Family.

I don't see anything 'revolutionary' about Michonne and Rick. In fact, I see it as more reactionary than anything else. Rick might have been Michonne's friend but I disagree with 'BFF'. Carol and Daryl are Rick's best friends because those are the people who told the truth to about his plans for Alexandria; he lied to Michonne. And I disagree that Jessie was a mere 'crush' because you don't kill for a 'crush'.

I think that Jessie is Rick's type and it has nothing to do with what she looks like. In my eyes, Michonne is slumming BIG TIME, by choosing to be with a man like Rick Grimes.

As for Morgan I think Morgan WAS crazy but I don't believe he is anymore. Morgan is like a recovered alcoholic who avoids killing for fear of slipping back. I don't have a problem with a Black woman being with a man BECAUSE he's Black. But Morgan has a lot more going for him than just being Black. He also happens to be handsome, sexy, intelligent, passionate, compassionate and funny. And he has Lennie James' make you weak at the knees smile. Morgan is the catch of the ZA, in my opinion.

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree on Richonne. We DO agree on the absurdity of not allowing Michonne to interact with the rest of her comrades. I also loved the WOC 'summit' and wish we could have another one. They should all get together and decide if Abraham is worth tearing up the sisterhood. I have my own theories on why Michonne and Carol have NEVER exchanged a word.

mightysparrow · March 16, 2016

Given that Carol in the period since she has known Morgan has gone from a cool, competent badass who will casually threaten to murder a child to someone who shakes like a leaf at the prospect of lethal violence and whose hesitation almost got her and Maggie killed, which appears to be directly related to Morgan's influence on her, shouldn't you say that Morgan is sucking the life out of Carol, rather than the other way around? If anything, spending time with Morgan will be fatal to Carol, not the other way around; I have no doubt that if and when Carol does die, it will be due to the same hesitation we saw in 6x13. Carol's ability to take quick, ruthless action without hesitation or doubt has protected her in dangerous situations; if she loses that, she's done for.

As for Tyreese, spending time in proximity to Carol's ruthlessness ("I'm gonna kill people") had no effect on him whatsoever. He died as a victim of his own hesitation. If Carol had influenced him to be more pragmatic and less sentimental, he'd still be alive.

If Morgan is the reason that the children of Alexandria are safe from Psycho Carol and her bedtime stories, then I say 'good on Morgan!'.

Tyreese had more strength than Carol could dream of having. He forgave her of cold-blooded murder. Personally, I think he should have been a little less strong and busted a cap in her. The events of the Grove and the knowledge that someone he trusted murdered the woman he loved is what broke Tyreese.

Timetoread · March 16, 2016

He also happens to be handsome, sexy, intelligent, passionate, compassionate and funny.

I don't find Morgan (or Lennie) to be any of those things. Not a single one. I guess it is a matter of taste. If Morgan were the last man in the ZA I'd feed myself to the well walker. That or just shoot him in his sleep. I'd rather Abraham than Morgan. I'd rather EUGENE than Morgan. He is all the way at the bottom of the barrel for me. He is STILL certifiable and I wish he would die off the show.

kia112 · March 16, 2016

Hey, Timetoread, can you please write an analysis about Rick and Michonne for me every day? It makes my heart flutter. I love your insight.

mightysparrow · March 16, 2016

I don't find Morgan (or Lennie) to be any of those things. Not a single one. I guess it is a matter of taste. If Morgan were the last man in the ZA I'd feed myself to the well walker. That or just shoot him in his sleep. I'd rather Abraham than Morgan. I'd rather EUGENE than Morgan. He is all the way at the bottom of the barrel for me. He is STILL certifiable and I wish he would die off the show.

That's okay. More Lennie James for me! I've met both Lennie James and Andrew Lincoln. I win!

AngelaHunter · March 16, 2016

Quote
If Morgan were the last man in the ZA I'd feed myself to the well walker. That or just shoot him in his sleep. I'd rather Abraham than Morgan. I'd rather EUGENE than Morgan. He is all the way at the bottom of the barrel for me.

OMG. I had to check and make sure I hadn't written that. You're my new favorite poster.

The events of the Grove and the knowledge that someone he trusted murdered the woman he loved is what broke Tyreese.

Or maybe it was the fact that he allowed the cannibal who was going to break a baby's neck live and lied about it, so said cannibal could help the other cannibals locate our group and eat Bob alive.

Edited March 16, 2016 by AngelaHunter

Timetoread · March 16, 2016

Hey, Timetoread, can you please write an analysis about Rick and Michonne for me every day? It makes my heart flutter. I love your insight.

LOL Thanks. I'm not usually a romanic but this pairing inspires me and has for several years now. It fires on all cylinders for me. I have never felt this way about a fictional couple before, I usually don't care. In an odd way, I find myself hearting Scott Gimple for our shared vision.

SimoneS · March 16, 2016

As for Morgan. Morgan is insane and has been since Season 3. I don't want a man who is removed from reality and has no problem fighting a woman until she is unconscious for Michonne. Morgan has shown ZERO interest in helping people or listening to other's concerns. Morgan is awful.

Way harsh on Morgan. I don't think that he is insane. I do think that he is mentally unstable though. It is the only explanation for his swings from one extreme to the other and getting into a physical fight with Carol. I think that he will eventually reach a middle ground where he accepts that there are circumstances in which you have kill bad people, much as Gabriel has.

As for Carol, I like her with Tobin. Once Morgan finds his way to that middle ground, he might be a good match for her. Like I said before, I think Lennie James is handsome and charismatic. She would be lucky to have him.

As for the above quote, again wow, but let's get it straight right now that I don't subscribe to that either and never said as much. Michonne is not validated by her relationship with that "White Man", aka Rick. The victory, in my eyes is not that the white man is loving her, it is that ANY man is loving her. I can't think of a single show or movie - including black movies - off the top of my head where a woman who looks like Danai is the love interest. It is VERY significant that not only is this woman written into a romantic storyline but that it is with the show's lead character. It is even more significant that she got involved with this man off the heels of his prior crush (Jessie wasn't more than that IMO) who was a blonde beauty. Which takes out of the equation that he is just one of those dudes who is "into" black women or has jungle fever or who is down with the swirl or who wants some chocolate in his milk and other such concepts that turn the whole thing into fetishism. She is not Rick's type (nor is he hers, since nobody will ever mistake Andrew Lincoln for Aldis Hodge's doppleganger) but the show is trying something revolutionary by showing that a deep and meaningful romance can come from a deep and meaningful friendship, not just with whoever your genitals point to.

I agree with this, especially the bold. I think it is extraordinary that Gimple saw the potential for Michonne and Rick as a romantic couple from the moment she arrived in season three and started laying the ground work when he wrote "Clear" even though he was not in charge as yet and Kirkman didn't pair them up in the comics. I wonder if that factored into the decision to kill off Andrea or if it was something else. Gimple was clever to bond Carl to Michonne first. There were so many moments where the chemistry and connection between Rick and Michonne were so intense that I would post that they should be together, but said that there was no way that I thought it would happen. I cannot imagine the reaction of Kirkman and the AMC execs to Gimple deciding to make them a romantic couple.

I also give Gimple credit for the agency that he has given the women on show. They were much weaker and poorly written under Darabont and Mazzara.

Edited March 16, 2016 by SimoneS

DearEvette · March 17, 2016

As for Morgan I think Morgan WAS crazy but I don't believe he is anymore. Morgan is like a recovered alcoholic who avoids killing for fear of slipping back.

I think this is one of the most insightful comments about Morgan I have seen in awhile. It is really easy to like bad-asses who kill without a blink. I think it is much more difficult to take the time to parse what a character like Morgan feels and thinks. Unlike CDB who for the most part had a strong support system in each other, Morgan weathered a lot of ZA alone. He had to be incredibly resourceful and smart to survive how he has to this point. And yet that aspect of him is dismissed and his likeability factor is centered on whether or not he's willing to kill indiscriminately.

I don't think Morgan is somehow the cause for Carol's issues. I think Carol is. Morgan isn't important enough or influential enough to Carol as a person to cause her rethink anything. The fact of the matter is, if anyone is human enough to still have a conscience, there is going to come a point where they are going to hit a wall and need to examine some of the things they've done. I think it was Sam's death that caused Carol to think about what she's become. I also think Morgan is a person who has already hit that wall and he goes overboard not to kill because he knows how easy it is to tip over and become a monster. So the alcoholic on the wagon is a great analogy.

I would actually like to see Carol and Morgan develop a relationship (not necessarily romantic) but some sort of understanding that comes out of this. I think we are seeing the seeds of it, but I would like for it to grow. Both Lennie and Melissa are great actors. It is unfortunate that Lennie is being saddled with a character arc that feels so reminiscent of Tyrese's so soon after Tyrese because I don't think it is letting him shine.

And finally, in thinking about characters who don't get to interact enough, i would love it if in whatever mechanism, we get to see Sasha and Rosita interact. I would love something meaty and interesting for these two. They also have a lot of potential and we don't get to see it.

GodsBeloved · March 17, 2016

As for Morgan I think Morgan WAS crazy but I don't believe he is anymore. Morgan is like a recovered alcoholic who avoids killing for fear of slipping back.

I never looked at it this way but I wholeheartedly agree.

GodsBeloved · March 17, 2016

I think this is one of the most insightful comments about Morgan I have seen in awhile. It is really easy to like bad-asses who kill without a blink. I think it is much more difficult to take the time to parse what a character like Morgan feels and thinks. Unlike CDB who for the most part had a strong support system in each other, Morgan weathered a lot of ZA alone. He had to be incredibly resourceful and smart to survive how he has to this point. And yet that aspect of him is dismissed and his likeability factor is centered on whether or not he's willing to kill indiscriminately.

Can I like this post a bazillion times? Morgan has been called weak, cowardly but this right here says to me he's far from weak and cowardly.

GodsBeloved · March 17, 2016

I don't think Morgan is somehow the cause for Carol's issues. I think Carol is. Morgan isn't important enough or influential enough to Carol as a person to cause her rethink anything. The fact of the matter is, if anyone is human enough to still have a conscience, there is going to come a point where they are going to hit a wall and need to examine some of the things they've done. I think it was Sam's death that caused Carol to think about what she's become. I also think Morgan is a person who has already hit that wall and he goes overboard not to kill because he knows how easy it is to tip over and become a monster. So the alcoholic on the wagon is a great analogy.

Its a sad commentary that Carol is now being called weak because she's now showing that she does have a conscious about killing.

Edited March 17, 2016 by GodsBeloved

SevenStars · March 17, 2016

I think this is one of the most insightful comments about Morgan I have seen in awhile. It is really easy to like bad-asses who kill without a blink. I think it is much more difficult to take the time to parse what a character like Morgan feels and thinks. Unlike CDB who for the most part had a strong support system in each other, Morgan weathered a lot of ZA alone. He had to be incredibly resourceful and smart to survive how he has to this point. And yet that aspect of him is dismissed and his likeability factor is centered on whether or not he's willing to kill indiscriminately.

I don't think Morgan is somehow the cause for Carol's issues. I think Carol is. Morgan isn't important enough or influential enough to Carol as a person to cause her rethink anything. The fact of the matter is, if anyone is human enough to still have a conscience, there is going to come a point where they are going to hit a wall and need to examine some of the things they've done. I think it was Sam's death that caused Carol to think about what she's become. I also think Morgan is a person who has already hit that wall and he goes overboard not to kill because he knows how easy it is to tip over and become a monster. So the alcoholic on the wagon is a great analogy.

I would actually like to see Carol and Morgan develop a relationship (not necessarily romantic) but some sort of understanding that comes out of this. I think we are seeing the seeds of it, but I would like for it to grow. Both Lennie and Melissa are great actors. It is unfortunate that Lennie is being saddled with a character arc that feels so reminiscent of Tyrese's so soon after Tyrese because I don't think it is letting him shine.

And finally, in thinking about characters who don't get to interact enough, i would love it if in whatever mechanism, we get to see Sasha and Rosita interact. I would love something meaty and interesting for these two. They also have a lot of potential and we don't get to see it.

This whole post is perfect. Morgan not being willig to kill DOESN'T make him weak. He is self-aware enough to understand his limit right now. To know that if he kills, it will destroy him.

AngelaHunter · March 17, 2016

Morgan not being willig to kill DOESN'T make him weak.

He doesn't necessarily have to go on killing expeditions. Not every person in Alexandria went. But none of them harboured, fed and pilfered scarce supplies to care for one of the Wolves who would have happily slit the throats of everyone in town.

Eyes High · March 17, 2016

I don't think Morgan is somehow the cause for Carol's issues. I think Carol is. Morgan isn't important enough or influential enough to Carol as a person to cause her rethink anything. The fact of the matter is, if anyone is human enough to still have a conscience, there is going to come a point where they are going to hit a wall and need to examine some of the things they've done. I think it was Sam's death that caused Carol to think about what she's become. I also think Morgan is a person who has already hit that wall and he goes overboard not to kill because he knows how easy it is to tip over and become a monster. So the alcoholic on the wagon is a great analogy.

Well, we don't know for a fact whether or not Carol would have still had her breakdown in a Morganless world, but the fact is that at the end of Season 5, she was coolly threatening Sam and Pete and she was goading Rick to murder Pete with no sign at all that this gave her any pause, and that by 6x13, that resolve had disappeared. I don't know how anyone could think that it's a coincidence that Carol has gone from "Preemptive murder is necessary" to "Murder should be avoided if possible" over the course of her relationship with a man who has told her that she doesn't need to kill people and who has openly challenged her judge, jury and executioner mode. Carol was already breaking down before Sam's death, thus her trembling and glassy-eyed nervousness when threatening to kill Morgan in 6x08 (which in retrospect seems very similar to her behaviour in 6x13). Why? Because Morgan dared to call her on her murder-happy ways, something no one had done since Rick exiled her (probably because her murder-happy ways saved them at Terminus), and she couldn't handle it.

It would be very sloppy writing indeed if the writers paired Carol and Morgan in Season 6 without ever intending to suggest that Morgan was going to influence Carol in some way. I don't know how they could make that implication any clearer at this point.

Its a sad commentary that Carol is now being called weak because she's now showing that she does have a conscious about killing.

There's nothing weak about "having a conscience" in the abstract. If Carol had coolly and calmly handled her shit while being dead set against killing, I doubt anyone would be complaining about her weakness. However, there's nothing strong about being unable to protect oneself or other people because one is paralyzed with indecision over killing, which is the situation Carol almost found herself in in 6x13. Carol's little breakdown when she was urging Paula to run away without shooting her could easily have resulted in Maggie and her baby's death. It was only when there was an immediate threat to Maggie's life that she was able to overcome her indecision and shoot Chelle.

He doesn't necessarily have to go on killing expeditions. Not every person in Alexandria went. But none of them harboured, fed and pilfered scarce supplies to care for one of the Wolves who would have happily slit the throats of everyone in town.

I think the beef with Morgan is the beef with all fanatics eager to spread the word: live your life the way you want, but don't force it on other people. Using the alcoholism analogy from upthread, no one can force an alcoholic to want to change. They need to make that decision for themselves. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be enough for Morgan to abstain from "drinking"; everyone else needs to abstain, too.

The other thing about Morgan's actions with the Wolf is that he harboured him secretly instead of going straight to Rick (well, Deanna, but essentially Rick) and letting Rick make up his mind. He was so convinced of the rightness of his beliefs that he saw fit to usurp Rick's authority by going behind his back. I'd like to think that him standing up openly at the town meeting in 6x13 to express his opinion was a sign that he'd learned something.

I do think Morgan means well, and that he's trying to prevent others from suffering as he suffered. Still, I can see why his behaviour grates.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Eyes High

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