Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

[AngelaHunter]

28 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Rick looked at Michonne's ass a couple of times but EVERYBODY looked at Michonne's ass.  Daryl did.  Merle, Hershel, the Governor, they all took a peek. 

Even I couldn't help looking at it.  It's so out there, and she's the only one dressed in pants so skin-tight they actually pull into wrinkles across the thighs.  Looks so uncomfortable in the heat and without any bathing facilities.

 

28 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I have never seen any sign of a Carol/Daryl romantic relationship. 

 Agree. Especially obvious when they spent the night together on actual beds in the women's shelter. Even people who didn't feel wildly attracted to each other might have shared a touch or a comforting hug in that situation, but in this case - zero. Nada.

Quote

I don't see Michonne as 'desperate'.   I see her as 'settling' and it doesn't make any damn sense to me. 

"Settling" may be the better word. It would have been much more acceptable had Rick not been lusting after another woman minutes before.

Edited November 25, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[jvr]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

I googled it for you! I know nothing about religion so was curious. Seems FatherG is an Episcopalian priest and they have no restrictions on marrying.

Thanks for taking one for me. I'm assuming his religious convictions would preclude premarital sex and it doesn't look like he is losing his religion any time soon. You better be damn sure he knows what he is doing because you aren't getting to sample the goods (if he has any goods worth sampling) till he puts a ring on it. Might end up having to teach him how to fight and how to fuck. 

Went back and looked at that Town Hall scene and there were a few women scattered throughout, more than I initially thought. I'm not good with spotting extras though so I don't know if any of them have had significant moments or who is paired up.

 

Quote

"Settling" may be the better word. It would have been much more acceptable had Rick not been lusting after another woman minutes before.

Hyperbole? I believe two months passes in between the horde overrunning the town with Jesse dying and the second part of the season.

Edited November 25, 2016 by jvr

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, jvr said:

Hyperbole? I believe two months passes in between the horde overrunning the town with Jesse dying and the second part of the season.

Two minutes, two months... for me, time is so elastic on this show I never know the timeline unless someone specifically mentions the passage of it. In any case, were I Michonne, I'd still be thinking it's a case of "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with," and that I had merely outlived the competition.

[nodorothyparker]

It would have helped the timeline immensely had they not dragged Jessie's and the rest of the Anderson family's deaths out until after the season break.  As it was, she died in one episode and we got a throwaway line or two at the start of the next that some amount of time (two weeks?  two months?) had passed.  I have to keep reminding myself of this time lapse for any of the stuff that came after it to make any degree of sense.

I struggle to see the attraction in Rick much of the time just because he's spent so much of his screen time bouncing around on the big revolving wheel of sane vs. insane.  And right now the (even temporarily) whipped dog look isn't at all appealing.  But with all of the PTSD and loss and talky assholes with bats showing up, it probably is hard to find someone in this world who is in a good head space, so you might as well take what you can get.     

[jvr]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Michonne, otoh, has been portrayed as incredibly enigmatic, almost unknowable.  In this we have a lot more leeway in ascribing virtues that haven't necessarily been shown on screen as canon. In some ways she is not as complete a character as Rick. 

Nicely stated, way more eloquent than anything I could express about Michonne, but I tired. 

 

32 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

It would have helped the timeline immensely had they not dragged Jessie's and the rest of the Anderson family's deaths out until after the season break.  As it was, she died in one episode and we got a throwaway line or two at the start of the next that some amount of time (two weeks?  two months?) had passed.  I have to keep reminding myself of this time lapse for any of the stuff that came after it to make any degree of sense. 

Agreed. Having Jesse and fam die in the 2nd half premiere and then jumping ahead to everything being fixed, all the walkers being cleared and Carl not near death was jarring but can easily be missed. It is important though when gauging the characters actions and reactions. Negans visit ep being less than a week after their ordeal (that was dragged out as well) as an example is important in acknowledging and examining what they did and did not do and how they are still behaving since that event, and I have to keep reminding myself of that. 

[AngelaHunter]

I just can't get rid of the thought that the writers are a bunch of teenaged boys who say, "All that mushy, lovey-dovey stuff? Nah. Lets go, like, right to the head bashing. Like, brains and skulls crushed all over! That is so fucking sick, like SO cool, man!"

[AngelaHunter]

Double post. Ugh.

Edited November 25, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[Ohwell]

5 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I never saw ANY indication that Rick was interested in Michonne and I definitely didn't see any indication that Michonne was interested in Rick.

I never saw any indication either.  I thought that Rick grew to like and respect Michonne, and she was a good companion for Carl and babysitter for Judith, but that's it.  And Michonne never gave any hint (at least to me) that she was remotely interested in Rick.  She showed more chemistry with Andrea. 

[jvr]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

I just can't get rid of the thought that the writers are a bunch of teenaged boys who say, "All that mushy, lovey-dovey stuff? Nah. Lets go, like, right to the head bashing. Like, brains and skulls crushed all over! That is so fucking sick, like SO cool, man!"

A large segment of the audience is teenage boys and men who emotionally are still teenage boys lol and yes they would flip their lids if this show lingered too much on anything lovey-dovey. The writers are slaves to the core audience and they want zombie apocalypse head bashing. I don't know how much of the audience comes from the comics which I would guess is largely read by young men but they are vocal too. I had a co-worker obsessed with the show (one of those comic-con types, fly out from the east coast to California for a live taping of the Talking Dead type obsessed) and he falls into the two prior categories. IMO most of the audience couldn't care less about the romantic relationships and are here for the fighting and zombie survival story. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by jvr

[allyw]

3 hours ago, Ohwell said:

babysitter for Judith

I've seen this comment many times and I never really understood it. Though my memory could be faulty, I don't remember seeing Michonne holding Judith that much on screen or hearing that she was watching her. So if that was the barometer, then I guess Carol, Tyrese and Father Gabriel are/were only babysitters too.

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, jvr said:

. IMO most of the audience couldn't care less about the romantic relationships and are here for the fighting and zombie survival story. 

On second thought, after watching what these writers consider a mature, romantic relationship (Glenn and Maggie) it's probably better there isn't more of it. I'm all for love and romance, but those two were written so sickeningly sweet and saccharine I expected a choir to sing every time they looked at each.  None of the writers seem to have a clue as to what goes on between a man a woman. They better stick to guts and gore and post-pubescent puppy love like that of Enid and Carl.

5 minutes ago, allyw said:

Though my memory could be faulty, I don't remember seeing Michonne holding Judith that much on screen or hearing that she was watching her. So if that was the barometer, then I guess Carol, Tyrese and Father Gabriel are/were only babysitters too.

I guess my memory is just as faulty as yours, or more faulty since other than in the prison, I don't remember her holding or caring for Judith at all. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I can't recall it. Beth was her primary caretaker until they fled the prison, after which Tyreese had her.

[allyw]

42 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I guess my memory is just as faulty as yours, or more faulty since other than in the prison, I don't remember her holding or caring for Judith at all. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I can't recall it. Beth was her primary caretaker until they fled the prison, after which Tyreese had her.

I do believe she cares for Judith and I have seen her hold her a few times (she had Judith strapped to her during the fight at Father Gabriel's church, I remember thinking how badass that was, and at the infirmary when Rick was talking to comatose Carl). My point was her caring for Judith didn't make her a babysitter.

[jvr]

Neither one of you are senile...there are/have been a lot of people in the Judith Babysitters Club. As mentioned Beth, Tyrese, Carl, Carol, FatherG and I think it was implied Olivia was watching Judith this past episode. Welcome to the Judith Babysitters Club Olivia! Life expectancy is I think pretty even. 

But for real, living in the same house there is no way off screen she isn't helping to take care of her. @allyw kickstarted some Michonne/Judith moment memories above, like you @AngelaHunter I was struggling to remember anything outside of the prison though I was sure she had shown affection toward her since then. From what we see though Michonne walks right out that door behind Rick to tackle the worlds problems, Judith be with her Babysitters Club members.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, allyw said:

So if that was the barometer, then I guess Carol, Tyrese and Father Gabriel are/were only babysitters too.

I wasn't saying that Michonne was the only babysitter for Judith, but she was/is one.  Judith has been passed around a lot. 

[allyw]

2 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I wasn't saying that Michonne was the only babysitter for Judith, but she was/is one.  Judith has been passed around a lot. 

I didn't take it that way and I apologize if I'm wrong but your post up thread indicated that Rick only saw Michonne as a companion for Carl and a babysitter for Judith and that was what I was addressing. So my point was how exactly could she be considered her babysitter when she was/is hardly shown on screen with Judith though I agree with @jvr that there's no way she's living in the same house and not caring for her.

[Ohwell]

3 minutes ago, allyw said:

I didn't take it that way and I apologize if I'm wrong but your post up thread indicated that Rick only saw Michonne as a companion for Carl and a babysitter for Judith and that was what I was addressing. So my point was how exactly could she be considered her babysitter when she was/is hardly shown on screen with Judith though I agree with @jvr that there's no way she's living in the same house and not caring for her.

I do believe that Rick primarily sees Michonne as a companion for Carl and a sometime babysitter for Judith, with some "love the one you're with" thrown in.   She's convenient for him; he's convenient for her, which is certainly understandable in the ZA.  I just don't see it as some great love story.  Plus, as I said in a previous post, if I were Michonne, considering he was willing to turn me over to the Governor, there's no way I'd be sleeping with him.  I don't care how hard a decision it was for him to make.  He made it.  

[AngelaHunter]

24 minutes ago, jvr said:

there are/have been a lot of people in the Judith Babysitters Club.

IIRC, Beth spent most of her days and nights caring for her - she was Judith's mother for all intents and purposes -  and I don't remember that was seen as something demeaning (Was it?) as it seems to be with Michonne,  even though she's cared very minimally for the kid.

[allyw]

20 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I do believe that Rick primarily sees Michonne as a companion for Carl and a sometime babysitter for Judith, with some "love the one you're with" thrown in.   She's convenient for him; he's convenient for her, which is certainly understandable in the ZA.  I just don't see it as some great love story.  Plus, as I said in a previous post, if I were Michonne, considering he was willing to turn me over to the Governor, there's no way I'd be sleeping with him.  I don't care how hard a decision it was for him to make.  He made it.  

While I'm not an active shipper of them or any other couples on the show (except Daryl, Carol and the grim reaper), I do like them and don't think that they're together out of convenience and I respect that others see them differently but I still can't get down with the "Michonne only being the babysitter/nanny" trope that has been floating around.

Edited November 27, 2016 by allyw

[jvr]

@AngelaHunter I don't know, I wasn't following the discussion of TWD here (or at TWOP I guess then), during the Prison season. I have a feeling it wasn't taken as a negative, for some women it's ok to be a mother figure. It doesn't make you seam weak but for others it's seen as taking away from a characters strength, just guessing. 

[Timetoread]

On 11/24/2016 at 2:46 PM, Ohwell said:

Yeah, this Black woman thinks she deserves better, too.   

This Black woman thinks she's done pretty good for herself.  Some of us don't think that Rick is a selfish asshole.  Some of us think the opposite.  Some of us don't consider Morgan, the non killing Ninja Turtle or Father Gabriel, the crybaby who pissed himself while leaving his flock to die, to be wonderful options for Michonne simply because they are black.  And you may not think that there was chemistry between Rick and Michonne but many of us do, and I can show you my own posts going back several seasons where I said as much.

[Timetoread]

On 11/25/2016 at 0:11 PM, mightysparrow said:

Rick looked at Michonne's ass a couple of times but EVERYBODY looked at Michonne's ass.  Daryl did.  Merle, Hershel, the Governor, they all took a peek.  I don't think this meant anything more that Rick had eyes.  I never saw ANY indication that Rick was interested in Michonne and I definitely didn't see any indication that Michonne was interested in Rick.  Michonne showed more interest in Daryl (and Daryl returned that interest) but that was snuffed out when Caryl fans started getting riled up.

I agree with @Ocean Chick that just because fans asked about Rick and Michonne doesn't mean that there was anything there.  I have never seen any sign of a Carol/Daryl romantic relationship.  In fact, Carol actually HAD a romantic relationship with somebody else.  Yet there have been 'fan wars' (including actual threats of violence) whenever another  partner is suggested for Daryl.  Unfortunately, I've seen a similar type of response to anyone who dares to criticize Richonne

But the ones getting attacked here are the ones who dare to like Richonne.  That's the point right?  You didn't see it, therefore it wasn't there.  Scott Gimple took credit, but of course he's lying.  All evidence presented can be explained away and dismissed as stupidity and foolishness.  This is all so extreme.

Can it be said perhaps that you didn't see it because you didn't want to see it, because you don't like Rick and you don't like the politics of The White Man's prize? Doesn't mean it wasn't there. Whether you saw it or not, like it or not, that they are a couple is a fact.

[Timetoread]

15 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I do believe that Rick primarily sees Michonne as a companion for Carl and a sometime babysitter for Judith, with some "love the one you're with" thrown in.   She's convenient for him; he's convenient for her, which is certainly understandable in the ZA.  I just don't see it as some great love story.  Plus, as I said in a previous post, if I were Michonne, considering he was willing to turn me over to the Governor, there's no way I'd be sleeping with him.  I don't care how hard a decision it was for him to make.  He made it.  

If I were Michonne I wouldn't give it a second thought.  It wasn't some huge betrayal, he barely knew her at that point. The choice at hand was whether or not you could let one die to save many.  He point blank asked Hershel if he was prepared to lose Maggie or Beth for her and Hershel said nothing.  It wasn't just Rick who made it.

As for the rest, it is not true that she was just convenient to Rick and that is all, it is just that your hatred of Rick is so strong that you will not give him credit for anything and condemn him for everything.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Timetoread

[Ohwell]

There's no need to quote my posts anymore because, clearly, we disagree.  Time to move on.  I have.

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, Timetoread said:

If I were Michonne I wouldn't give it a second thought.  It wasn't some huge betrayal, he barely knew her at that point. The choice at hand was whether or not you could let one die to save many.  He point blank asked Hershel if he was prepared to lose Maggie or Beth for her and Hershel said nothing.  It wasn't just Rick who made it.

Agreed. And what I love about Michonne is that she came back. After Merle freed her, she could have easily struck out on her own again. The fact that she went right back to the prison shows me that she understood, and forgave him(them) instantly. 

[nodorothyparker]

Didn't Michonne tell Rick something like she understood why he had to consider it?  I also read her coming straight back to the prison when she very easily could have gone anywhere else as her accepting it and deciding it didn't really matter in the larger scheme of finding a place for herself.  Granted, she was a lot more magnanimous than I likely would have been about it but I've also long accepted that when your world is almost entirely populated by ambulatory corpses and apocalyptic assholes your priorities are likely to be somewhat different than what they might otherwise be.

I think it's also worth noting that no one in the group at the time who knew about it, certainly not Daryl or Herschel who would later come to value and care about her, considered Michonne one of them enough to make more than tepid noises in Rick's direction about it.

Edited November 26, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[AngelaHunter]

18 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I've also long accepted that when your world is almost entirely populated by ambulatory corpses and apocalyptic assholes your priorities are likely to be somewhat different than what they might otherwise be.

A lot of what Rick did/does (like bending over for Negan) is influenced by the presence of Carl. Like any parent, he would do anythang or sacrifice anyone, including himself, if it meant keeping Carl alive.  When it came to keeping the kid safe or handing over Michonne to the Governor, there was never a question. The real problem was that he was still naive and dumb enough at the time to trust that would be the end of it.

[mightysparrow]

23 hours ago, Timetoread said:

But the ones getting attacked here are the ones who dare to like Richonne.  That's the point right?  You didn't see it, therefore it wasn't there.  Scott Gimple took credit, but of course he's lying.  All evidence presented can be explained away and dismissed as stupidity and foolishness.  This is all so extreme.

Can it be said perhaps that you didn't see it because you didn't want to see it, because you don't like Rick and you don't like the politics of The White Man's prize? Doesn't mean it wasn't there. Whether you saw it or not, like it or not, that they are a couple is a fact.

I heartily dislike Richonne but I don't recall 'attacking' fans of the ship.  You have proven my point though, so thanks for that.

[mightysparrow]

On 11/25/2016 at 10:25 PM, Ohwell said:

I do believe that Rick primarily sees Michonne as a companion for Carl and a sometime babysitter for Judith, with some "love the one you're with" thrown in.   She's convenient for him; he's convenient for her, which is certainly understandable in the ZA.  I just don't see it as some great love story.  Plus, as I said in a previous post, if I were Michonne, considering he was willing to turn me over to the Governor, there's no way I'd be sleeping with him.  I don't care how hard a decision it was for him to make.  He made it.  

I agree with you.  The point is that he made the decision.  He's the type of man who would make that kind of decision.  I can see Michonne understanding Rick's decision.  I can even see her forgiving him, even though I think it's unforgivable.  What I can't see is becoming that kind of man's lover.  That just doesn't seem like the woman Michonne is, in my opinion.

[Timetoread]

deleted

Edited November 27, 2016 by Timetoread

[Timetoread]

12 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I agree with you.  The point is that he made the decision.  He's the type of man who would make that kind of decision.  I can see Michonne understanding Rick's decision.  I can even see her forgiving him, even though I think it's unforgivable.  What I can't see is becoming that kind of man's lover.  That just doesn't seem like the woman Michonne is, in my opinion.

But she IS that man's lover, so by definition it is the woman Michonne is.

The thing that strikes me about Rick's good and bad decisions is that nobody else steps up to make any decision that affects the group.  Sure they make the easy decisions about who's on guard duty, but never a doling out of who is going to die so that others may live.  Hershel talked all manner of shit about Carl shooting that boy but notice who was facing down the boy with the gun - it wasn't Hershel or Beth.  That's why he can miss me all day with that sanctimonious bullshit about Carl needing to be reigned in.  He didn't put himself between the two boys with guns to protect them.  No he hid his daughter and himself behind the littlest boy and then had the nerve to bitch about what that child did. My point is that everybody's a critic but few have the balls to act and even fewer to direct.  Rick was trying to avoid a war - one that would be fought by women, elderly, and HIS child.  He asked the critics for a better idea and as usual they said a whole lot of not a fucking thing.  Finally it ate him up so much that he renounced leadership and sought to do what was necessary to get her back.  Merle made the hard decision in the end snd he KNEW it was a suicide mission.  ANY decision was going to cost a life-or many- these types of decisions are not easy to make, so yeah I cut Rick slack for sometimes being wrong.  He isn't perfect but he is never wrong in the interest of self or of malice.  It is why I like him. 

[Anela]

On 11/25/2016 at 10:38 PM, allyw said:

While I'm not an active shipper of them or any other couples on the show (except Daryl, Carol and the grim reaper), I do like them and don't think that they're together out of convenience and I respect that others see them differently but I still can't get down with the "Michonne only being the babysitter/nanny" trope that has been floating around.

Me, too. What I dislike, is this new villain coming along to totally crush this man and his ego, directly after they finally got together. I was one of the people who saw chemistry between them ages ago, and I loved it when they finally got together. So, of course, they end up in a situation where he's suddenly being emasculated in front of this really strong woman, being told over and over that he's the reason people are dead. Not that Negan is a sociopathic, narcissistic asshole, who needs to take out any competition, and to be revered by everyone (or at least utterly feared). I love that the women are stepping up and wanting to fight, I just loathe the timing (and Negan). 

Don't get me started on Spencer. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Anela

[allyw]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

Me, too. What I dislike, is this new villain coming along to totally crush this man and his ego, directly after they finally got together. I was one of the people who saw chemistry between them ages ago, and I loved it when they finally got together. So, of course, they end up in a situation where he's suddenly being emasculated in front of this really strong woman, being told over and over that he's the reason people are dead. Not that Negan is a sociopathic, narcissistic asshole, who needs to take out any competition, and to be revered by everyone (or at least utterly feared). I love that the women are stepping up and wanting to fight, I just loathe the timing (and Negan). 

Don't get me started on Spencer. 

I'm still waiting on the "love" part of the "love to hate him" shit that JDM and Gimple was spewing about how the audience would feel regarding Negan. So far all he has done is bore me out of my freaking mind with his long winded ass. And I've also found Simon to be more interesting. 

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, allyw said:

I'm still waiting on the "love" part of the "love to hate him" shit that JDM and Gimple was spewing about how the audience would feel regarding Negan. So far all he has done is bore me out of my freaking mind with his long winded ass. And I've also found Simon to be more interesting. 

LOL Same. But given how heinous Negan is there is no way I will love to hate him. I just hate him.

[nodorothyparker]

I can't even summon the interest to hate him.  I just find him ridiculous and boring with his teeny tiny leather jacket and pages and pages of monologue.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 1:12 PM, Timetoread said:

Also, this scene reaffirmed something I noted a while ago about why Michonne is so good for Rick.  Nobody else ever, I mean EVER, gives him comfort.  I think the group either loves or respects him, but on a level they don't admit to, they fear him too.  What he is capable of (what they've seen him do) seems to always be in the back of their minds.  They've seen him break too but they still keep a distance from him.  They don't hug him or pat him on the shoulder.  When he is uncertain, they give him space to sort it out.  ONLY Michonne, before and after their coupledom, walks straight up to Rick and deals with how he FEELS.  Right now, Rick is scared.  He is so sad.  He is unsure about what to do next.  He is unsure he can win in the end.  Michonne understands all of that.  She disagrees with his plan of action but she feels all those things as well.  But the cincher was when he leaned in for the saddest and driest of cheek kisses - he was unsure about her too, about THEM.  So my girl let him know, that was one uncertainty he didn't have to carry around.  She's all in and he can die knowing he is loved. 

This isn't completely true.  After Lori died, Rick refused comfort from everyone initially.  But when Carol was found alive, Rick went right into her arms for comfort.  It's one of my favorite moments.  He let his guard down for her.  I would add Hershel to the list.  He tried hard to help Rick when Lori died and he had the breakdown.  I would say that Hershel was Rick's most trusted confidante at the time.  Hershel is also the one who convinced Rick that Carl needed a break from guns and violence.  Lori was also very protective of Rick, other than the Shane death, of course.  In fact, I think Rick has been practically doted on throughout the series.  Maggie, and even Daryl (!) immediately accepted Rick's banishment of Carol.  Rarely does anyone confront him when his disastrous plans go to hell.  He probably never made plans in preparation for Negan because he was so busy being comforted by everyone.

Of course the last sentence is in jest (kind of).  But the only person who comes close to Rick when it comes to time spent on his pain (manpain) is Daryl.  We get it - Rick has suffered.  He's one of my favorites, but really - who hasn't suffered.  He's lost one family member.  One.  Who else can say that?  Both of his kids are alive.  Bet Michonne and Carol wish they could say the same.  In many ways, Rick's the luckiest person on the show.

[ViewerPDX]

Wrong thread edit.

Edited November 28, 2016 by ViewerPDX

[rab01]

On 11/27/2016 at 2:26 PM, Timetoread said:

The thing that strikes me about Rick's good and bad decisions is that nobody else steps up to make any decision that affects the group.  Sure they make the easy decisions about who's on guard duty, but never a doling out of who is going to die so that others may live.  ...  ANY decision was going to cost a life-or many- these types of decisions are not easy to make, so yeah I cut Rick slack for sometimes being wrong.  He isn't perfect but he is never wrong in the interest of self or of malice.  It is why I like him. 

I agree 1000%. For the first several seasons Rick always had to make the hard calls and do the hard things to survive (Shane, for all his bluster, never made a single hard call other than once for self-preservation.) I wasn't a huge Richonne fan because I didn't see a ton of romantic chemistry coming from Rick but the two share plenty of it now.  I would say, however, that last couple of seasons have shown a bunch of the other characters making decisions (for good or bad) rather than relying on Rick to choose for them and I think it's a healthy direction for the show.

[Mu Shu]

On 11/26/2016 at 1:37 PM, Timetoread said:

This Black woman thinks she's done pretty good for herself.  Some of us don't think that Rick is a selfish asshole.  Some of us think the opposite.  Some of us don't consider Morgan, the non killing Ninja Turtle or Father Gabriel, the crybaby who pissed himself while leaving his flock to die, to be wonderful options for Michonne simply because they are black.  And you may not think that there was chemistry between Rick and Michonne but many of us do, and I can show you my own posts going back several seasons where I said as much.

I saw chemistry even when Rick was sticking his finger in her bullet wound to make her talk when she first showed up.  But man that was fucked up.    

[AwesomO4000]

On 11/25/2016 at 0:30 PM, DearEvette said:

But the storytelling has opened her up in the last two seasons with her relationship with Carl and now Rick so it could be argued that that relationship has been beneficial from a character progression standpoint. The Rick who stood worriedly at the gate with Abraham in the first half of season waiting anxiously for her return isn't the same Rick who wanted to give her up to the Gov and isn't, imo, even the same Rick who came to Alexandria. I think both characters are the richer for it.

And this is one of my favorite relationships on the show, Michonne and Carl. I also love that even before Rick and Michonne got involved, Rick understood that she and Carl were close and let them have that friendship. "It's for you" was one of my favorite moments (and I have a great love for that episode and the follow up one where Carl and Michonne get to talk).

I also loved the Daryl and Carol friendship, but the show hasn't allowed that to have much screentime in a long, long time.

I also liked the eventual friendship that developed between Abraham and Eugene, but well no more of that sadly, all because of ...

On 11/27/2016 at 7:09 PM, catrox14 said:

LOL Same. But given how heinous Negan is there is no way I will love to hate him. I just hate him.

So much this. But for me it isn't just because Negan is heinous that I can't love to hate him (though it's certainly a big part). Metatron over on Supernatural was heinous also... and weaselly, and power hungry, and loved to hear himself talk, but somehow Curtis Armstrong made the character someone I loved to hate... I even smiled when he was onscreen, because there were moments of levity, especially when Metatron was getting a richly deserved comeuppance - even if he did somehow end up weaseling out of it later (dude was covered with metaphorical Vaseline that way). And though I know there are many who also just hated Metatron, I was actually sad when he "died" (since we don't know exactly what happened to him), because they'd given the character enough depth that even though I hated him, I also enjoyed the character. And I understood his relationship with the other characters - like Chuck - and how the other characters reacted to him made sense.

Negan though is too one note for me, and he never gets even a slight comeuppance. Negan speechifies, Negan does sadistic stuff, Negan wins, Negan gloats, rinse and repeat. And I don't understand many of the other characters' reactions to him. To me, he is not deserving of their respect and loyalty, but somehow they show it anyway and seem to have bought what he's selling despite actual evidence that what he's selling is not what he's delivering. I mean didn't the poor flunkies who had to lug all those mattresses just to burn them even wonder "why can't I have one of these nice mattresses? Why are we putting up with this shit?"

On 11/27/2016 at 8:11 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I can't even summon the interest to hate him.  I just find him ridiculous and boring with his teeny tiny leather jacket and pages and pages of monologue.

Hee. I find Negan worse than boring. I find him annoying. So I hate him and find him annoying... like a mosquito buzzing around my head while I'm trying to sleep.

[ghoulina]

I find him annoying BECAUSE he's so fucking boring. But he (and the showrunners) think he isn't. They think he's cool and the most menacing menace to ever menace. But he just says the same shit over and over and acts like he's going to do something to scare you...when you know he's not. THAT'S what annoys me. 

[DearEvette]

I have to agree, Negan is a bad villain. Not because he is villainous, but because he simply isn't compelling. I am of the school that believes that a good villain, in his mind, thinks he is the hero of the story.  Everything he does, he does from the conviction that he is doing right.  It is just that he can't see how twisted and wrong his perception is.  If written that way he gets layers and motivations and his actions have a logic behind them that make them compelling to watch even in their wrongness.  I hated the Governor, but I always felt that the Governor was written this way. Meanwhile all we have of Negan is that he likes to shake people down and kill them with bats.  He has no other layers.  He is just a thug.  It doesn't make for a character you want to get to know. 

[Enero]

On 12/1/2016 at 11:06 AM, DearEvette said:

I have to agree, Negan is a bad villain. Not because he is villainous, but because he simply isn't compelling. I am of the school that believes that a good villain, in his mind, thinks he is the hero of the story.  Everything he does, he does from the conviction that he is doing right.  It is just that he can't see how twisted and wrong his perception is.  If written that way he gets layers and motivations and his actions have a logic behind them that make them compelling to watch even in their wrongness.  I hated the Governor, but I always felt that the Governor was written this way. Meanwhile all we have of Negan is that he likes to shake people down and kill them with bats.  He has no other layers.  He is just a thug.  It doesn't make for a character you want to get to know. 

I completely agree. I think Negan is one of those characters that might've worked well in the comics, but is obviously not translating to screen well at all. 

I'm not sure what Gimple could've done to make it work either. He couldn't cut Negan completely out of the story because he has a very big arc in the comics and comic fans would be expecting him to appear at some point on the show. Gimple and team are pretty much following the comic with his personality etc. As much as I like JDM I'm thinking perhaps he was a bad cast for this role? Whatever happened here it's not working. 

BOT - I'm really enjoying how they're building the connection between Sasha and Maggie. Their friendship really started to bloom back in S5 right after Sasha lost Tyrese and Maggie lost Beth. I'm glad to see the show continuously build on the friendship love between them. 

[GodsBeloved]

On 11/25/2016 at 0:36 PM, AngelaHunter said:

"Settling" may be the better word. It would have been much more acceptable had Rick not been lusting after another woman minutes before.

I don't care one way or the other about Michonne and Rick as a couple. In fact, on paper I can see how they would end up together but this Jessie thing ... omg I still don't see the reasoning behind that if the writers were planning all along to pair Michonne with Rick and do it within what 1 or 2 episodes of Jessie dying. It makes it seem, to me at least, that Rick is with Michonne because Jessie isn't there.

But anywho, I'm so glad I don't have a dog in this fight.

[AngelaHunter]

4 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I don't care one way or the other about Michonne and Rick as a couple.

Me either. I have no interest in who hooks up. The juveniles who write this stuff make it all so distasteful or syrupy sweet, as though none of them have ever actually been in an intimate relationship of any kind, that it would be preferable to keep everyone celibate and/or asexual.

 

6 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

It makes it seem, to me at least, that Rick is with Michonne because Jessie isn't there.

Or merely that he got all horny courting Jessie and ran out of options to work it off,  so Michonne will do.

[GodsBeloved]

On 11/26/2016 at 3:56 PM, ghoulina said:

Agreed. And what I love about Michonne is that she came back. After Merle freed her, she could have easily struck out on her own again. The fact that she went right back to the prison shows me that she understood, and forgave him(them) instantly. 

What pissed me off about this is it had to be Michonne who took the initiative to reassure Rick that he had to think about turning her over. Rick couldn't be the one to take the initiative and say he was sorry and then Michonne could say she understood. No, she had to go assuring him and then he parted his lips to say sorry. ugh!

And then they have Rick saying he "came real close". No Rick, you not only thought about it, you PUT THE PLAN IN MOTION even after Merle told you what would happen to Michonne!!! And then to heap in on, Michonne's response to Rick's "came real close" is "but you didn't". No Michonne, he did. Rick did more than think about turning you over, he PUT THE PLAN IN MOTION.

On topic: I want a relationship with Ezekiel or Morgan LOL

Edited December 3, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[mightysparrow]

On 12/2/2016 at 8:34 PM, GodsBeloved said:

What pissed me off about this is it had to be Michonne who took the initiative to reassure Rick that he had to think about turning her over. Rick couldn't be the one to take the initiative and say he was sorry and then Michonne could say she understood. No, she had to go assuring him and then he parted his lips to say sorry. ugh!

And then they have Rick saying he "came real close". No Rick, you not only thought about it, you PUT THE PLAN IN MOTION even after Merle told you what would happen to Michonne!!! And then to heap in on, Michonne's response to Rick's "came real close" is "but you didn't". No Michonne, he did. Rick did more than think about turning you over, he PUT THE PLAN IN MOTION.

On topic: I want a relationship with Ezekiel or Morgan LOL

That's the thing with Michonne and Rick.  She gives and he takes.  She makes HIM feel good about being a piece of shit that would hand a woman over to be raped and tortured to death.  She sees to it that his son doesn't become a total sociopath.  She persuades him to choose a home for his children instead of staying out on the road, eating roasted dog.  And what does Michonne get?  A little bit of dick and some mints.  That's a fair exchange.

I don't think I will ever like Michonne being with Rick but it might have been a little easier to accept if she had said 'what was all that bullshit with that married woman?'  But that would have meant that Rick would have had to explain his horrendous behaviour and Rick Grimes doesn't do that.

It seems that poor Ezekiel is stuck with Carol but Morgan should have someone.  First of all, Lennie James is one sexy motherfucker.  I met him and the man oozes charm.  Morgan was a loving husband and father; losing his wife and son literally drove him insane.  He has a lot to offer someone.  It's a shame that he and Michonne haven't spoken since they have similar experiences, but that would mean that Michonne might take a minute to talk about herself and we can't have that, can we?

Edited December 4, 2016 by mightysparrow

[ByTor]

^^^  Too bad there's no "love" button here, @mightysparrow is spot on.

11 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

 this Jessie thing ... omg I still don't see the reasoning behind that if the writers were planning all along to pair Michonne with Rick and do it within what 1 or 2 episodes of Jessie dying.

I guess the "logic" is that Rick having the hots for Jessie & acting like he was entitled to have her (at that point Rick was more arrogant than ever) set her husband off, which in turn resulted in all that chaos in Alexandria.  No, the husband wasn't a good guy, domestic abuse is disgusting, but Rick being in lurve with Jessie made the crime punishable by death.

[Anela]

Ezekiel seems to like Carol. I think she should have someone, too. I love Michonne, and I suppose they could still have her pair up with someone else, but I don't want to see Carol given the boot (if she does end up having a relationship with Ezekiel - they haven't taken us back, to see if that was anything more than a friendly visit). 

[allyw]

On 12/3/2016 at 7:08 AM, ByTor said:

Delete

Edited December 5, 2016 by allyw
Delete

[allyw]

On 12/3/2016 at 7:08 AM, ByTor said:

I guess the "logic" is that Rick having the hots for Jessie & acting like he was entitled to have her (at that point Rick was more arrogant than ever) set her husband off, which in turn resulted in all that chaos in Alexandria.  No, the husband wasn't a good guy, domestic abuse is disgusting, but Rick being in lurve with Jessie made the crime punishable by death.

After losing interest in the show for about 1 1/2 season, I tuned in an episode only to see Rick's hand on his gun while watching a married woman and her husband walking down the street. That shit was creepy af and I was seriously wondering wtf was going on so I decided to binge on all the episodes I had missed and it still didn't make sense that the same man who went through another man trying to steal his family was so willing to do it to someone else.

And seeing how the show has been since then, I'm convinced that that storyline was only done for the chop/Carl losing his eye scene and nothing else. That whole thing was so badly written that it made it very hard for me to believe that Jessie was being abused. At one point, I actually thought that it was her that was the abuser.