S02.E06: Enter Zoom

[phoenics]

Ditto.

 

I want them to use Iris better and find a creative way to integrate her into the plot but I also enjoy Patty and Barry together and want to see much more of it. Last year when Patty wasn't in the picture, Iris got screen time but she was still marginalized and had no POV. We can't put that all on Patty's existence. 

 

The Zoom parts were terrific and I'm really curious about how Barry and his pals will defeat him by season's end.

The excuse by the writers for how Iris was marginalized last season was because she was left out of the secret. This season, Iris KNOWS and she's still marginalized. Patty (who DOES NOT know) is better used and not marginalized (she's actually being over used and shoving out Iris scenes - one in particular was cut between Iris and Barry to show a very repetitive Batty scene) - so again - please tell me that Iris' screen time isn't being reduced due to Patty?

It is. I'd say differently if they hadn't cut a really important Barry/Iris scene where Barry talks to Iris about her mother, but left in TWO nearly identical Batty scenes (one easily could have been cut) instead. And I tend to read Batty scenes as Patty scenes.

Even GG was surprised because he promoted the scene on his twitter, it was mentioned in several interviews, and it was in the promo.

Something is WRONG here.

I guess if you are a fan of Iris or Candice, what they are doing to her annoys, but I have to say that coming at this from the point of view of someone who wasn't a fan of either - and who thought Barry was adorable with Felicity - I think what they are doing with Iris this season rocks.  Last season, I didn't care for her very much and the last thing in the world I wanted was for her and Barry to eventually get together.

 

This season?  I have enjoyed every. single. scene Iris has been in and absolutely LOVED her and Linda together. So while I understand people want to see her used more - at the very least, they quality of her scenes are out of the ballpark.  To me, they fixed her character and made me buy into the possibility that she and Barry might someday make a good pairing (something Arrow 100% failed to do with Laurel).  That's at least something, right?

 

I get the annoyance with Patty - her character DOES seem rather pointless.  And while I do think she and Barry are cute together at time, her over-the-top whatever they are trying to do with her is getting a bit old.  But I have to say that if it's a debate between leading actresses, I thought Caitlyn was who most people were talking about stealing the show from Iris.  We see Caitlyn all the time and I would have thought she was the lead actress if I didn't come to these boards and know better.

Out of curiosity - what was your problem with Candice Patton?

[nksarmi]

I don't have a problem with Candice - I just didn't know her.  I don't watch a ton of TV so to my knowledge, I had never seen her before (I had no idea who the actress who played Laurel was either and I guess she was well known when she was cast in that role).

 

I didn't care for early Iris and then I started liking her but hated her and Barry together.  About the time when Iris was pissed at Eddie because Joe wrapped him in on the secret and then told him Iris couldn't know - I was ready to hop onto the biggest anti-Iris/Barry ship around.

 

But now - I've just liked ever scene she's been in this season.  And what friendship I have seen between Iris and Barry - I really, really buy into.  And it finally feels like they are striking the right balance between Joe being Barry's father figure and Iris being Barry's first love.  Because I have to tell you the semi-incestual feel of season one was a bit gross.

[KirkB]

If Wells had told them that Zoom killed his daughter or kidnapped his daughter, everyone would've understood him more. That secret was kept for their stupid secret reveal they love doing. We, the audience already knew Jessie was his daughter and being held by Zoom, there was no reason for Wells to keep that a secret. And we didn't need Cisco to vibe that out. Did they just want an excuse to use his powers in an episode where they weren't really needed?

 

 

That's a good point actually. The Zoom has Wells' daughter was supposed to be an important reveal. They clearly wanted the audience to be first suspicious and then sympathetic toward E2 Wells, so why show the audience a scene showing his daughter was Zoom's prisoner if they intended to have Cisco vibe out the fact Zoom has Jesse. Why not wait and tell the audience at the same time he tells the others?

[phoenics]

That's a good point actually. The Zoom has Wells' daughter was supposed to be an important reveal. They clearly wanted the audience to be first suspicious and then sympathetic toward E2 Wells, so why show the audience a scene showing his daughter was Zoom's prisoner if they intended to have Cisco vibe out the fact Zoom has Jesse. Why not wait and tell the audience at the same time he tells the others?

I think the show needed a "punch" for the end of last week's episode, so they threw in the JQ/Zoom scene from E2. But then that ruined the scenes this week with Vibe.

The editors and writers need to be taken behind the woodshed.

[TobinAlbers]

That's a good point actually. The Zoom has Wells' daughter was supposed to be an important reveal. They clearly wanted the audience to be first suspicious and then sympathetic toward E2 Wells, so why show the audience a scene showing his daughter was Zoom's prisoner if they intended to have Cisco vibe out the fact Zoom has Jesse. Why not wait and tell the audience at the same time he tells the others?

 

I could buy Wells not revealing anything about himself until he learned more about this world and if he felt he could trust the people. Even Jay did recon before approaching the team.

 

Then Harry learns the very people whose help he needs, not only hates his face but have reason to shoot to kill on sight. So he gave himself an in by saving Barry from King Shark to prove that on some level he wasn't the sociopath that wore his face in this world and screwed them over. It earned him enough cred to not be shot on sight (except for Joe nearly dropping him; Barry is what saved Harry in that moment).

 

Then as he's interacting with them he realizes he's on thin ice and don't trust him, Jay adds to lack of trust because he doesn't trust Harry. It could be rationalize that any of the other worlders would come at Barry either through brute force or manipulative lies, like a sob story of a daughter. Given the Wells of this world used lies and manipulations before, Harry probably thought it was futile to give them any more info than- I'm here to kill Zoom. And Team Flash could also posit that it's the fact that Zoom has his daughter that Harry would try to maneuver to get close to the team in order to take out Barry.

 

Remember up until end of last week, Wells didn't know what Cisco's power was. Only that he was a meta. Now why didn't he want him to Vibe him after he knew about Cisco's power so he could prove his story about Jesse? E2 Wells may still have other secrets he wants to protect. Or maybe Wells hadn't made up his mind about double crossing Team Flash and the angle was still on the table in his head. Or maybe he wasn't up for more angry accusations and long talks and just wanted to get to putting Zoom down once and for all so he could go home and find his daughter.

 

In any case the only reason why they believed Harry about his daughter was because Cisco told them about her and he only believed Harry because his Vibe powers allowed him to see the truth at that moment for himself - that Jesse was taken by Zoom and neither Jesse nor Zoom knew why Wells went to another world so Wells really was off book and not in cahoots with Zoom.

 

Why didn't Cisco not tell the rest of them about what he vibed? He still doesn't trust in his powers and definitely doesn't want to look at Harry in any kind of sympathetic light, but once Joe was ready to punch Harry in the throat or worse, Cisco was pushed to get the answer because he knew it was important to finally get an explanation

 

At least that's all my fanwank :)

 

And I did notice that when Harry was at mission control with Cisco and Caitlin he was definitely touchy with both of them in supportive 'pat on the back' ways the way a boss/professor would be around his employee/proteges. On one hand it was like EobardWells was back in the fold and on the other it's probably what Harry is like with his own team when he's got his sleeves rolled up, isn't being a dick, and they're working in the lab. It was a nice touch. Honestly, I love DickHarry and his so over this crap attitude. Sadly, I think he's going to be another death for the season. It could be a regular thing. Each season we get a different universe's Harrison Wells.

[Actionmage]

Maybe I just wasn't paying attention last season, but it didn't seem like Eddie got all this flak for distracting Iris.  Barry gets his turn now is all.

 

Taking my response to Lightning Rods thread.

[Perfect Xero]

Zoom injected Barry with the speed dampening serum after their terminal velocity fall/fight, right?

[benteen]

While the mistrust of Wells is understandable and warrented considering he came over from Earth-2, I wish their would be more realization that's he's not the Wells they knew because he's not Thawne.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Sigh.

 

I'm not sure if it's hero show fatigue, or just finishing up watching a mega marathan of watching Bruce Timm's (superior and awesome) DCAU of Justice League/Justice League Unlimited, but I didn't like that Barry got his ass kicked. Again. It seems he gets beat up more than he wins. Zoom does NOTHING for me. He doesn't scare me, I don't find him scary. Nuttin'. All I know is that I didn't care for it, and I reall wanted Barry to win.  And this is coming from someone whose favorite Flash is Wally West (Thanks to Timm and Michael Rosenbaum's portrayal).

 

Patty does annoy me, and I fast forwarded all her scenes after that ridiculous and stupid scene of her and Joe.  I like Iris.

 

My issue with this show's relationships that squick me-Barry with Linda? When she's supposed to be Wally's girlfriend/wife? And now Wally will be Iris's brother instead of nephew, and just the incestousness and making villains of characters who are supposed to be villains? I'm not on board with that. I guess I continue to watch because I find Gustin adorable.  I'm not sure how much longer I can hang on. It's looking as if this show will become that show that sits in my dvr queue until I have nothing else to watch/to kill time.

[KirkB]

I fully understand Harry not saying anything to the gang. I don't get the show runners giving it away early and then making a big deal out of the gang finding out when they could have revealed it to the audience and the gang at the same time through Cisco.

 

Zoom injected Barry with the speed dampening serum after their terminal velocity fall/fight, right?

 

He stabbed Barry with the dart Harry shot at him, so I'd say yes.

[VCRTracking]

That's a good point actually. The Zoom has Wells' daughter was supposed to be an important reveal. They clearly wanted the audience to be first suspicious and then sympathetic toward E2 Wells, so why show the audience a scene showing his daughter was Zoom's prisoner if they intended to have Cisco vibe out the fact Zoom has Jesse. Why not wait and tell the audience at the same time he tells the others?

 

I think the show needed a "punch" for the end of last week's episode, so they threw in the JQ/Zoom scene from E2. But then that ruined the scenes this week with Vibe.

The editors and writers need to be taken behind the woodshed.

 

 

 

There was also the flashback scene in the episode where Jesse confronts her father about his responsibility for the Earth-2 metas. I think it was to show that there were two sides to that Wells, the hardass side and the one who's nicer when he's around his daughter. It gave you a good look at who Jesse was other than just a captive.

 

I like Patty but it does bother me that she looks a lot like the comic book version of Iris.

Edited November 11, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Primetimer]

Barry and Zoom have their first showdown. It doesn't go perfectly for either of them.

Read the story

[Trini]

I think this show really struggles when it comes to writing female characters.  They can't seem to think of anything to do for Caitlin for example except write her being in another relationship. ...

 

She was working at Mercury Labs with Tina McGee! ::grrrrr:: I kinda hate that they had her quit that to work for free(??). They still haven't really addressed the money question with STAR Labs.

[nurse1]

Patty does annoy me, and I fast forwarded all her scenes after that ridiculous and stupid scene of her and Joe.  I like Iris.

 

THIS

 

Patty is just too Pollyanna for my taste...this is not an adult relationship to me...I feel like a small child being forced to eat and like a particular unlikeable food!

 

Maybe it's me but I don't seem to be enjoying this season as much...maybe now that Zoom has finally arrived things will become more interesting

[zannej]

I could buy Wells not revealing anything about himself until he learned more about this world and if he felt he could trust the people. Even Jay did recon before approaching the team.

 

Then Harry learns the very people whose help he needs, not only hates his face but have reason to shoot to kill on sight. So he gave himself an in by saving Barry from King Shark to prove that on some level he wasn't the sociopath that wore his face in this world and screwed them over. It earned him enough cred to not be shot on sight (except for Joe nearly dropping him; Barry is what saved Harry in that moment).

 

Then as he's interacting with them he realizes he's on thin ice and don't trust him, Jay adds to lack of trust because he doesn't trust Harry. It could be rationalize that any of the other worlders would come at Barry either through brute force or manipulative lies, like a sob story of a daughter. Given the Wells of this world used lies and manipulations before, Harry probably thought it was futile to give them any more info than- I'm here to kill Zoom. And Team Flash could also posit that it's the fact that Zoom has his daughter that Harry would try to maneuver to get close to the team in order to take out Barry.

 

Remember up until end of last week, Wells didn't know what Cisco's power was. Only that he was a meta. Now why didn't he want him to Vibe him after he knew about Cisco's power so he could prove his story about Jesse? E2 Wells may still have other secrets he wants to protect. Or maybe Wells hadn't made up his mind about double crossing Team Flash and the angle was still on the table in his head. Or maybe he wasn't up for more angry accusations and long talks and just wanted to get to putting Zoom down once and for all so he could go home and find his daughter.

 

In any case the only reason why they believed Harry about his daughter was because Cisco told them about her and he only believed Harry because his Vibe powers allowed him to see the truth at that moment for himself - that Jesse was taken by Zoom and neither Jesse nor Zoom knew why Wells went to another world so Wells really was off book and not in cahoots with Zoom.

 

Why didn't Cisco not tell the rest of them about what he vibed? He still doesn't trust in his powers and definitely doesn't want to look at Harry in any kind of sympathetic light, but once Joe was ready to punch Harry in the throat or worse, Cisco was pushed to get the answer because he knew it was important to finally get an explanation

 

At least that's all my fanwank :)

 

And I did notice that when Harry was at mission control with Cisco and Caitlin he was definitely touchy with both of them in supportive 'pat on the back' ways the way a boss/professor would be around his employee/proteges. On one hand it was like EobardWells was back in the fold and on the other it's probably what Harry is like with his own team when he's got his sleeves rolled up, isn't being a dick, and they're working in the lab. It was a nice touch. Honestly, I love DickHarry and his so over this crap attitude. Sadly, I think he's going to be another death for the season. It could be a regular thing. Each season we get a different universe's Harrison Wells.

Interesting. I like your explanation of why Harry didn't tell them about his daughter-- although, I don't think he came in to Star Labs knowing that they hated his face. I think he came in and snuck around to get the lay of the land and might not have known anything about that world's Wells. Speaking of which, I wonder what they ever did with his body. Last I saw, they had it in Barry's lab.

 

I did like when Harry actually got more hands on with people in the heat of the moment. I also loved the look on his face and the way he looked at Zoom when he said "I made a mistake". I personally don't find Zoom scary, but I usually don't find anything to be scary. However, I can buy that the characters on the show find him scary. Linda's face when he leaned in close.

 

I still find it odd how Zoom said "You're next!" to Harry and then didn't lay a finger on him. Either he was trying to get him to soil his pants or he plans to get him later. I noticed that Harry didn't try to fight back quite as much when Joe attacked him. I think he understood how Joe felt, but he does have his own priorities. I think he's been in a sort of limbo where he didn't know whether or not his daughter was alive.

 

Another thing, Harry said he knew "everything" about Zoom. Does that mean he knows who he was before he transformed? I wonder where he was going when he left. I hope he wasn't leaving and giving up on this team.

 

When Caitlin was standing near the doorway talking to Cisco and encouraging him to go touch Wells again, I wanted to smack her. Did she not see what just happened? And she was probably speaking loudly enough that he could hear her. I almost expected him to say "I can hear you!" Heroes/protagonists talking about secret stuff in public or in earshot of people not in on the secret is one of my pet peeves.

 

But am I the only one who thought the "you're my joy, Jesse Quick" line was odd-- in combination with a smile-- right after she stormed off all pissy? You'd think he would be upset that his daughter was mad at him. Of course, it was a memory, so maybe that was how he remembered it happening.

[Marie F.]

Does anyone else think it's weird that Harry's metahuman detector watch went off randomly when Zoom was on the roof?  Cisco was standing right next to him. Why wasn't it already going off?  The last time he used it, I think he flipped it open and did something to it before holding it up to Cisco and Caitlin to see if it went off.  In this episode, he was just sitting in a chair when it went off because Zoom was on the roof.

[zannej]

Does anyone else think it's weird that Harry's metahuman detector watch went off randomly when Zoom was on the roof?  Cisco was standing right next to him. Why wasn't it already going off?  The last time he used it, I think he flipped it open and did something to it before holding it up to Cisco and Caitlin to see if it went off.  In this episode, he was just sitting in a chair when it went off because Zoom was on the roof.

Yes! That was something I forgot to mention. It seems that he rigged it specifically to go off when a speedster arrives, but Barry was right next to him. It went off when Jay showed up in a flashback. But maybe his particular app is programmed to detect Zoom and alert when he's coming near? Maybe he has different parameters for it and for non-speedsters he has to be closer to them? Or maybe he can set distance it detects? Maybe Zoom has so much metahuman energy and so much power that he can set it off from farther away?

[Jack Kerouac]

So, did invisible naked Earth-2 Linda Park/Dr. Light just up and disappear like a fart in the wind after she escaped past Cisco ?  Seriously Cisco, you fell for basically the same trick the

big bad dino pulled in Jurassic World

?   Thought he was smarter that that.

 

Why isn't ANYONE smarter than that? The FIRST thing you do when a prisoner disappears (a meta one), is not to open the cell door to see where the prisoner went! You go look at the video footage. You would then see Dr. Light going invisible. What's the rush to open the door? If the room is empty, it's not going anywhere.

[zannej]

Why isn't ANYONE smarter than that? The FIRST thing you do when a prisoner disappears (a meta one), is not to open the cell door to see where the prisoner went! You go look at the video footage. You would then see Dr. Light going invisible. What's the rush to open the door? If the room is empty, it's not going anywhere.

I agree. I think he should have tried other methods of determining if she was still in there. He should have heat sensors and energy detectors or whatever to make sure she's still there. For that matter, how the hell does he get food to prisoners in there without opening the door? Is there a secondary door/barrier that goes up and he puts food in and then when the door closes, the secondary part opens? Classic idiot mistake to open the door like that. But Team Flash have been making a ton of bad decisions since Eobard was erased from existence. Although some of those decisions were made before he was gone.

Edited November 12, 2015 by zannej

[Ottis]

And I am starting to suspect that they may kill off Patty. Beside the fact that she's just too perky and gee-whiz to be real, Barry's getting way too attached to her for it not to happen.

 

 

I think you may be right. I liked the Patty we met at first, but they aren't adding any depth to her. It makes me think she is being set up to fail.

 

Which unfortunately brings us back to Iris, which has never made sense because Barry grew up with her as his sister. You don't come back from that. It would be better for Iris to become a meta-human who holds her own vs. Flash, IMO.

[Limelight]

THIS

 

Patty is just too Pollyanna for my taste...this is not an adult relationship to me...I feel like a small child being forced to eat and like a particular unlikeable food!

In some ways that's one of the problems I have with the Iris and Barry relationship.  iris seems very competent, capable and mature, where as Barry, Caitlin and Cisco just seem awkward and immature.  Iris almost seems like she should be in the set with her dad and Harrison Wells, the smart guys who accomplish things without bumping into doorways or stammering their way though a sentence, Linda's in that group too, which is why I always thought Linda and Barry were mismatched.  Maybe by bringing in equally awkward and immature Patty, they can cycle through her and when Barry's done with that relationship, he can grow up a bit and look like he could emotionally be in a relationship with Iris. That's what I'm hoping anyway.

[phoenics]

I think you may be right. I liked the Patty we met at first, but they aren't adding any depth to her. It makes me think she is being set up to fail.

I don't think they are going to kill Patty - that's too much death. Ronnie, Eddie and then Patty too? Please no - this isn't Arrow and The Flash is supposed to be lighter than this.

Edited November 12, 2015 by phoenics

[sjohnson]

Re all the discussion about Iris: It seems to me that part of the problem with actually showing Iris as best friend and foster sister is that it really reinforces the sister part. Yes, she's "only" a foster-sister since the age of ten, but that's sort of a sister, which makes Barry/Iris sort of incest. Don't show so much of Barry and Iris as people who were raised together and remained close, that goes away. 

 

But what I really dislike in relation to how Iris is written is the many ways Joe prefers Barry to Iris. There really should have been a lot more sibling rivalry I think. 

 

They're setting up Patty to find out Flash's identity on her own, I think. 

 

And folks, I think there are certain things that are canon even when the opposite is on screen. "..I've made out with the Flash!" is alliteration.

[TwistedandBored]

She was working at Mercury Labs with Tina McGee! ::grrrrr:: I kinda hate that they had her quit that to work for free(??). They still haven't really addressed the money question with STAR Labs.

 

Both Arrow and The Flash have this problem. They want to have big and spacious cool spaces but don't want to explain how the Superheroes pay for them. Their enemy is explaining timelines, the law, and financial things. 

[dirtypop90]

In some ways that's one of the problems I have with the Iris and Barry relationship. iris seems very competent, capable and mature, where as Barry, Caitlin and Cisco just seem awkward and immature. Iris almost seems like she should be in the set with her dad and Harrison Wells, the smart guys who accomplish things without bumping into doorways or stammering their way though a sentence, Linda's in that group too, which is why I always thought Linda and Barry were mismatched. Maybe by bringing in equally awkward and immature Patty, they can cycle through her and when Barry's done with that relationship, he can grow up a bit and look like he could emotionally be in a relationship with Iris. That's what I'm hoping anyway.

I crack ship Iris/wells

Re the Barry/Iris the incest argument, I simply don't get it. They are not biologically related, and Barry didn't move in with them until he was 11, and he already had a crush on Iris before he moved. Kids that age don't start looking at each other as siblings just because they are placed under one roof.

[sjohnson]

When Patty calls Joe Barry's dad, I don't get it. Barry didn't move in with Joe until he was 11, and a kid that old knows who his father is. 

[Ruby25]

He called him his "foster dad" last season. And he actually called him "Dad" in the finale, so we're supposed to know that he thinks of him as a father. And I don't think that him seeing Joe as a father means he has to see Iris as his sister either. Married people sometimes call their in-laws "mom" or "dad." It's practice in this case.

[phoenics]

He called him his "foster dad" last season. And he actually called him "Dad" in the finale, so we're supposed to know that he thinks of him as a father. And I don't think that him seeing Joe as a father means he has to see Iris as his sister either. Married people sometimes call their in-laws "mom" or "dad." It's practice in this case.

Honestly whenever I hear someone refer to Joe as Barry's "dad", I just think - "yeah, his future father in law".

[Jack Kerouac]

And folks, I think there are certain things that are canon even when the opposite is on screen. "..I've made out with the Flash!" is alliteration.

 

Peter Piper picked a pack of pickled peppers is alliteration. Unless I'm missing what you're saying, which could very well be the case.

[kieyra]

Cisco is always the best. That is all.

[phoenics]

Peter Piper picked a pack of pickled peppers is alliteration. Unless I'm missing what you're saying, which could very well be the case.

Is it bad that I read the first three words of your sentence and then skipped over the rest until alliteration and honest to goodness thought you'd thrown in the lyrics to Run DMC's "Peter Piper"? I was jamming in my head and then I re-read it. Oops.

[zannej]

Now I wonder what word they meant instead of alliteration.

[sjohnson]

Peter Piper picked a pack of pickled peppers is alliteration. Unless I'm missing what you're saying, which could very well be the case.

What's on screen is on screen because it's broadcast TV. The real line was "I've fucked the Flash!" Which does alliterate. 

 

You just had to make me spell it out. Meanie!

[Jack Kerouac]

What's on screen is on screen because it's broadcast TV. The real line was "I've fucked the Flash!" Which does alliterate. 

 

You just had to make me spell it out. Meanie!

 

Sorry! I should have caught that one.

[venusnv80]

There is no such thing as kinda incest, either it is or it's not. Barry and Iris are not related, period. Didn't we spend an entire season getting his freaking dad cleared of murder charges and half a season trying to save his mom? Neither which were played by Jesse or Vanessa.

Edited November 14, 2015 by venusnv80

[zannej]

There is no such thing as kinda incest, either it is or it's not. Barry and Iris are not related, period. Didn't we spend an entire season getting his freaking dad cleared of murder charges and half a season trying to save his mom? Neither which were played by Jesse or Vanessa.

This may be true biologically, but legally, if Barry had been formally adopted (which he was not) it would be considered incest and he would not be allowed to marry Iris. I know this because my father had to deal with a petition from a couple who were born from different biological parents overseas and adopted by the same family. They lived as siblings but they fell in love and then wanted to get married-- but because they were adopted and thus considered to legally be siblings, they were not allowed to marry each other.

 

Back to the episode, I'm still trying to figure out why Cisco sat on the vision he saw of Jessie for so long. I also wonder how much of it he remembered because he just said he saw that Jessie was "with Zoom". Of course, maybe he didn't want to make Wells flip out by telling him about Zoom threatening her and making her scream. I wonder if Wells was afraid to ask if she was hurt or if he was just so overwhelmed with relief that she was alive. If it had been my family member being held captive, I would have wanted as much detail as possible.

Edited November 14, 2015 by zannej

[sjohnson]

There is no such thing as kinda incest, either it is or it's not. Barry and Iris are not related, period. 

Living together like a brother and sister, as a family, doesn't make it a family. Adoption doesn't matter, just parentage. Having the same man act as father doesn't make you related. Two people who've never met each other should feel like siblings if they have DNA in common but two people who've lived together since they were children shouldn't. 

 

Sorry, but even if you seems like simple common sense to you, your position is really rather extreme. 

[SevenStars]

Living together like a brother and sister, as a family, doesn't make it a family. Adoption doesn't matter, just parentage. Having the same man act as father doesn't make you related. Two people who've never met each other should feel like siblings if they have DNA in common but two people who've lived together since they were children shouldn't.

Sorry, but even if you seems like simple common sense to you, your position is really rather extreme.

Since this discussion don't really have anything to do with this episode, I'm going to respond in the relationship thread.

[sjohnson]

Sorry I went too far off topic.

[Last Time Lord]

Holy snot rocket. It was like this was SummerSlam 2014, Barry was John Cena, and Zoom was Brock Lesnar. That was just a complete curb stomping.

I think I like this more than the comparisons to Knightfall. God. Damn. Reverse-Flash looks positively cuddly in comparison.

[Actionmage]

Holy snot rocket. It was like this was SummerSlam 2014

 

I think I like this more than the comparisons to Knightfall.

 

I kept thinking back to Judge Dredd covers that scared the snot right out of me as a kid.

 

 

I think this show really struggles when it comes to writing female characters.  They can't seem to think of anything to do for Caitlin for example except write her being in another relationship.  I liked Patty in her intial apperance but now find her personality to be grating.  I like Linda although she has moved from love interest to victim...I'd love to see her become Doctor Light in her on right.  That would be great.  Iris, well...they've struggled with what to do with her as well.  But it seems like the female characters on The Flash are either love interests, victims or definded by their relationships.

 

IA with this parts of this.

 

Why Caitlin hasn't been shown doing more than being den mom and falling for Jay, I don't know. She's the one who twigged to why Barry fainted in S1, so show the results of all the nebulous tests she runs on him. Make her a freakin' Rudy Wells! ( $6M Man reference for you young'uns.) Caitlin is supposed to be nearly/as smart as Thawne's Wells, just in the bio segment of the science family. She is not just a healer-type, but Caitlin can also figure out how to stop the villains too. Currently, there's a round-robin feel to the figure-out-how-to-stop-the-baddie-this-week scenes, but Caitlin should have more under her belt than figuring out Barry's metabolism is souped-up and a co-save with Felicity of Chroma-dude ( the guy with angry-making eyes.)

 

Show? You want to show how tenacious Patty is, even after getting on Joe's Task Force of 1? Have her shadow Joe to STAR Labs. Have her stakeout places where she believes meta-villains will strike next. Show us Patty putting time into proving that Joe was right to let her on the "team", by doing her work, smartly, except she's a bit gung-ho and unscared of the potential danger. I get the pushing away the fear part of a cops job, but Patty just seems like it gives her no pause at all. Part of me wants to find out that Patty lied about her dead dad because she knew the most efficient way to sway Joe was to have a dead family member, conveniently killed by  the man who killed his partner.

 

Linda survived Zoom and had actively wanted to stop him from potentially hurting more people. That doesn't sound like a victim, to me anyway. Linda also is supposed to be a big time sports reporter for a major paper for the city. There are a couple of villains that could totally be intro'd through Linda and her job and that could be delightful. I don't want this to be a "You get a mask! You get a mask!..." show. I like that Iris and Linda are perfectly happy being reporters and in their spare time, they help out a superhero.  They seem good with that arrangement.  If Linda ends up being Dr. Light, I'd be okay with that because I like Malese Jow. The writers ignoring how Barry and the team can be introduced to threats by friends seems short-sighted and un-creative. That's me though.

 

I won't repeat the ways Iris-as-reporter has been ignored, but essentially my argument about Linda, only for longer.

 

 

I wonder if the golden filter can be lessened when we visit Earth-2. I'd prefer to see how that world looks in straight colors.

 

I still love the big brass wall art in CCPD. Thank you, Set Design Team!  And thank you, Wardrobe, for making Zoom one scary mofo!

[zannej]

There's an interesting video analysis of this episode that points out things people may have missed. I never noticed the number 52 before.

 

[DeadZeus]

This was an amazing episode, almost felt like a mid season finale...

1 thing that bothers me though, i find the explenation from Jay that Zoom stole his speed pretty lackluster. If that's true then why didn't Zoom steal Barry's speed? Can't just connect to Earth's 1 speedforce?

[zannej]

This was an amazing episode, almost felt like a mid season finale...

1 thing that bothers me though, i find the explenation from Jay that Zoom stole his speed pretty lackluster. If that's true then why didn't Zoom steal Barry's speed? Can't just connect to Earth's 1 speedforce?

Maybe he did something to disable Jay's connection to the speedforce somehow. My guess is he was going to do the same thing to Barry before he got shot by Cisco. Unless he allowed himself to be shot by Cisco and was only trying to make it look like he was going to kill Barry. He might have other plans for Barry somehow. Not sure though. I still suspect that the Henry Allen that showed up after the singularity could be Zoom. Either its E2 Henry or Zoom stole E2 Henry's body or Zoom stole E1 Henry's body. I could be way off though.