S02.E06: 206

[chocolatine]

Did they talk about Helen being trustee on the show? I thought an earlier episode talked about a mortgage on the property. Also, if it's just a real estate trust, does Helen have any real assets besides the home? I think if she had a trust fund with assets besides the house then she wouldn't be talking about selling the family home. Helens parents have been so controlling I bet Helen doesn't have a dime in her own name.

 

I don't remember anything about a mortgage. When they were first doing mediation (in episode 2x02, I believe) Helen said the house was purchased through her trust, which is why she felt Noah should have no claim to it.

 

I don't think it's unlikely that there isn't a lot of money left in the trust at this point. She purchased the house, sent the kids to private schools, and opened a store that has apparently never made a profit, all of which adds up to a few millions of dollars. I don't think the trust was obscenely big to begin with. Bruce and Margaret are wealthy, but they're not billionaires by any stretch.

[Blakeston]

I disagree with Helen about Margaret's motivations.  I don't think Margaret wanted Helen's marriage to fail because Margaret and Bruce's marriage was a sham.  I think Margaret wanted Helen's marriage to fail because Margaret hated Noah and always looked down on him.

 

She was definitely especially hard on Noah because of her hating him from the beginning. But I think no matter who Helen married, her mother would have done everything possible to drive a wedge between them.

 

If Helen had married a rich man like her mother supposedly wanted, I think Margaret may have ended up hating him more, because she'd no longer be able to control her daughter with money.

[right]

 

 

Helen's POV confirmed my opinion that she wants Noah to still be in her life.  Even though he has been a total shit and cheated on her she still loves him.  It's too bad that love doesn't always conquer all.

 

 

I didn't get that at all.  Helen's POV showed me that she really did want to put her kids first and she had to be the bigger person.  I saw a mother sucking it up so that her kids didn't suffer anymore.

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with the point that Helen is stopping the custody battle for her kids, that is pretty obvious.  However, just re-watching the episode I listened again as Helen told her mother that "she really loved him".  Yes, Helen does use past tense, but love does not shut off like a light switch.  Helen loves Noah, and no douche behavior on his part can make that love stop on a dime.  Sure, she has a brain and knows she's been betrayed, but from what we've seen of the modern day Helen she still has intense feelings for Noah.

[RedInk]

When? Why would she even be talking about her at all if she didn't know she was cheating with Noah? To her she is just some waitress.

Edited to add: Was it when Max was looking at Allison and Helen said he could do better? Eh, whatever, agree to disagree, I don't think Helen is a terrible person at all.

Agreed, and from my vantage point, I'll go a step further and say I've never seen Helen as a snob. I've seen other characters project that onto her because she grew up wealthy and is a little introverted/aloof, whatever you want to call it. And the characters that call her out on her snobbery are generally insecure and put-upon. What I see is a woman who married a working-class guy, raised four children with him and supported his artistic endeavors, continually praising his one well-received but commercially unsuccessful novel. She could have had a much different life if she'd married someone like Max, but she chose love over money. She doesn't know Allison's backstory. In the real world, I bet anyone would be thinking "I gave this ass the best of me, and he leaves me for a 30-year old waitress from the Lobster Roll?"

[Lemons]

I don't remember anything about a mortgage. When they were first doing mediation (in episode 2x02, I believe) Helen said the house was purchased through her trust, which is why she felt Noah should have no claim to it.

 

I don't think it's unlikely that there isn't a lot of money left in the trust at this point. She purchased the house, sent the kids to private schools, and opened a store that has apparently never made a profit, all of which adds up to a few millions of dollars. I don't think the trust was obscenely big to begin with. Bruce and Margaret are wealthy, but they're not billionaires by any stretch.

 

 

 

 

Oh, no mortgage.  I'm bad at details but I do remember that the grandparents pay the kids tuitions directly because the grandmother loved lording it over Noah. 

 

 

 What I see is a woman who married a working-class guy, raised four children with him and supported his artistic endeavors, continually praising his one well-received but commercially unsuccessful novel.

 

I don't see Noah as a "working class" guy.  He graduated from college, was a high school teacher and wrote novels.  Many people marry spouses who grew up with different backgrounds.  I don't think Helen married beneath her at all.  What has she done?  Helen's father has tons of money but he's a low class unlikable drunk (not that different than Noah's father, except the huge salary). 

[RedInk]

Oh, no mortgage. I'm bad at details but I do remember that the grandparents pay the kids tuitions directly because the grandmother loved lording it over Noah.

I don't see Noah as a "working class" guy. He graduated from college, was a high school teacher and wrote novels. Many people marry spouses who grew up with different backgrounds. I don't think Helen married beneath her at all. What has she done? Helen's father has tons of money but he's a low class unlikable drunk (not that different than Noah's father, except the huge salary).

But his family is working class. I don't think she married "beneath her," either; I'm saying someone preoccupied with money and class would think that, and I don't agree that Helen is one of those people. I believe Noah is the snob who thinks he's better/deserves better than anyone else. Also, I'm a teacher...not trying to diss teachers! ;) Edited November 10, 2015 by RedInk

[Boundary]

ETA: Boundary, who Noah was in that marriage was as a result of himself. When Helen read Noah to Alison in the stoop scene, she accurately described him. 

 

That speech got a rousing reception on the episode thread last week but I must say I wasn't one of them. I just thought it was a bit rich to for Helen absolve herself of any contributing factors. Which, in my view, has been justified by seeing a profound change in her this week. I think it's great writing.

 

 

 Her parents made their marriage harder, but Noah putting all his shit on her and pretending like she's the bad person because he fell in love with another woman is on him. 

 

 

I really have not seen this. Noah has explained that the marriage failed because he fell in love with Alison. He has not gone beyond this explanation, if I recall correctly. Most of the assessment of Helen comes from some of us the viewers, or from people like Alison or Noah's sister. Noah limits himself to rebuking specific acts. 

 

If Noah was actually a amateur individual, he would've called Helen on her shit years ago and fought to have a healthier marriage. But, no, he let it happen, and then walked away because he found his soulmate.

 

 

I really believed he loved Helen and even though he took a personal hit on his ego, for his children and Helen he'd do it all over again. I think he was in the marriage 100% until he wasn't. We haven't been told that he was a serial cheater, it seems like he's a good dad and that his libido is intact. I think the marriage was healthy until it wasn't, which makes sense to me because I don't think these things are static. Without Alison, the status quo would've remained, and I think that's probably the part that hurt Helen the most.

[Lemons]

But his family is working class. I don't think she married "beneath her," either; I'm saying someone preoccupied with money and class would think that,

 

That would be Helen's mother!   But what's interesting about this show is that although Helen's father has a ton of money he is pretty low brow.  So is the mother with her foul big mouth.  They didn't make the family one with a long history of important people or intellectuals or the usual stereotypes.  Helen's father probably comes from a working class family.  So I don't think class is a real issue, or shouldn't be anyway.

[Nanrad]

That speech got a rousing reception on the episode thread last week but I must say I wasn't one of them. I just thought it was a bit rich to for Helen absolve herself of any contributing factors. Which, in my view, has been justified by seeing a profound change in her this week. I think it's great writing.

 

 

 

I really have not seen this. Noah has explained that the marriage failed because he fell in love with Alison. He has not gone beyond this explanation, if I recall correctly. Most of the assessment of Helen comes from some of us the viewers, or from people like Alison or Noah's sister. Noah limits himself to rebuking specific acts. 

 

 

I really believed he loved Helen and even though he took a personal hit on his ego, for his children and Helen he'd do it all over again. I think he was in the marriage 100% until he wasn't. We haven't been told that he was a serial cheater, it seems like he's a good dad and that his libido is intact. I think the marriage was healthy until it wasn't, which makes sense to me because I don't think these things are static. Without Alison, the status quo would've remained, and I think that's probably the part that hurt Helen the most.

The last part is exactly why I don't agree with you saying if Helen had been more self aware her marriage would've been saved--it wouldn't have been. If Noah had been 100% in the marriage pre-Alison, that clearly says regardless of what Helen did, Noah was going to leave. His reasons for leaving had nothing to do with her mother's influence in their marriage, which annoyed him, but he dealt with because it wasn't that big of a deal. 

 

Helen didn't absolve herself of anything. You've already admitted that him leaving had nothing to do with Helen, so what is there for her to absolve herself of? And did he not do EXACTLY what she accused him of doing in this episode, putting all his shit on Alison. "I destroyed everything for you--I left my family for you." Haven't we seen Noah's temper when he's not in the mood, despite the other person doing nothing wrong. Look at how he handled Alison before the sex scene. This is not saying Helen doesn't have any faults, this is saying those faults didn't contribute to the dissolution of their marriage, which even Noah has basically said. Helen's change is because she's tried of feeling angry and heartbroken. She wants it to all be over, so they can move on.  I mean, does this mean you think Margaret being less involved means Noah is coming back or is the damage already done???

 

Noah said that to his son in the first episode. Trevor asked why he left and he said because I fell in love. The series basically points to this and no other reason. Besides Helen's mother's influence, which is not what I think killed their marriage, Noah hasn't said anything nor has Helen done anything to indicate her behavior is what made him stray. He seemed quite happy until he got involved with Alison. 

 

Honestly, your stance confuses me: Noah was fine and perfectly happy in the marriage, but Helen contributed to the dissolution of their marriage...

[Constantinople]

How can Helen sell the house if it's owned by the trust?

The trust fund was in Helen's name so she bought that town house using the money from her own trust fund. The loan-application process for borrowing from a trust is much simpler and faster than applying for a mortgage. The trust isn't the owner, Helen is the owner since she's the trustee. Borrowers need to ensure that the rules of the trust allow for lending or outright distributions. If we are speaking of a revocable, or living, trust on which you are your own trustee, then you should be able to do whatever you wish with the money left in trust.

 

Even if loans are allowed under Helen's trust, she may have just used the money in trust to buy and own the house outright.

In the first episode of the season, Helen told the mediator that the brownstone was purchased through the trust. In the fourth episode of this season, when asked by the judge if Helen owned the brownstone, Gottlief replied, "Not outright, Your Honor. It was purchased though a trust in 2003."

I don't recall that it's ever been stated that Helen is the trustee. In any case, how could Helen be both the trustee and the beneficiary?

The mediator said the brownstone would be Helen and Noah's joint property if Helen owned the brownstone outright since it was purchased during the marriage. I don't understand why that would change if the trust were revocable.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Constantinople

[lovinbob]

The kids weren't horrible spoiled brats this episode!  Whitney hugging her mom and getting the cake for Martin was really quite sweet.  It is interesting that when things started to turn around between Helen and Noah regarding custody, the kids began behaving better in the eyes of both Noah and Helen.  Much of this can probably be attributed to Martin's illness, but still, pretty interesting.

I thought this completely. The parents were more at peace, and the children were more lovable. Good reminder that they probably weren't all that horrible in the earlier episodes either—it was a matter of the parents being in turmoil.

 

Reasonable people can disagree, and I don't think Noah could get convicted in a court of law, but that sex scene was clearly Noah using sex as a weapon. Using sex to control and to dominate. Probably not criminal, but IMO the worst betrayal of your partner. There's Alison, feeling in control, centered, and an agent of her own life. She shared with him her realization about herself and her grief—monumental stuff. And right there in the middle of that, he takes her right back to that place.

 

Now, again, this was Noah's perception, and he previously had admitted that he was the bad guy in the story. I observed this two weeks ago—I don't think Noah likes himself very much. So who knows what actually took place at that tree. But it was rough to watch. And Alison—damn, I wanted her to scream or to turn around and kick him square in the balls. I hope the next thing out of her mouth, after "I'm pregnant," was "and it's Cole's." Because Noah's actions in that scene were the complete opposite of loving and, as a wise old couple I know used to say, "life-giving."

Edited November 10, 2015 by lovinbob

[nara]

I agree, biochexwist, he was happy to reap those benefits for like 20 years before he walked away. Not only that, Noah flat out attributes the dissolution of his marriage to falling in love with another. The show tries to sell us on soulmates and how you can't fight it. Margaret may have been an obstacle in their marriage and made their separation worse, but I refuse to put his shit and actions on "if only Helen had this insight sooner."

ETA: Boundary, who Noah was in that marriage was as a result of himself. When Helen read Noah to Alison in the stoop scene, she accurately described him. Her parents made their marriage harder, but Noah putting all his shit on her and pretending like she's the bad person because he fell in love with another woman is on him. The reason "fault" is a discussion is because Noah cannot admit to fault at all. Even when he says he fell in love with another woman, it's not his fault. It's not his fault how he left and the people he devastated by his actions. If Noah was actually a a mature individual, he would've called Helen on her shit years ago and fought to have a healthier marriage. But, no, he let it happen, and then walked away because he found his soulmate.

Although Noah seems to genuinely believe he left his wife because he fell in love with Allison, I am not sure that I believe it. He may have never articulated his dissatisfaction, but I think we observed it. However, I don't think he was dissatisfied with Helen specifically, but rather his life --particularly his unsuccessful career. The fact that his in-laws looked down on him and were not checked by Helen exacerbated the issue. (I think that a person can face the same temptation when they are vulnerable and when they are not, and have two very different reactions.) That made him vulnerable to the attraction to Allison, the same way that Allison's grief made her vulnerable to Noah's attentions. Whether he actually fell in love with Allison or was running from his life 1) does not make Helen to blame IMO and 2) will not affect whether or not he stays with Allison for the duration of the show, so it's moot.

[CleoCaesar]

I don't recall that it's ever been stated that Helen is the trustee. In any case, how could Helen be both the trustee and the beneficiary?

 

Maybe Helen's parents set up a living trust for her and bought her the brownstone with it. The way living trusts are set up is that the trustee and beneficiary is the same person.

[Nanrad]

Although Noah seems to genuinely believe he left his wife because he fell in love with Allison, I am not sure that I believe it. He may have never articulated his dissatisfaction, but I think we observed it. However, I don't think he was dissatisfied with Helen specifically, but rather his life --particularly his unsuccessful career. The fact that his in-laws looked down on him and were not checked by Helen exacerbated the issue. (I think that a person can face the same temptation when they are vulnerable and when they are not, and have two very different reactions.) That made him vulnerable to the attraction to Allison, the same way that Allison's grief made her vulnerable to Noah's attentions. Whether he actually fell in love with Allison or was running from his life 1) does not make Helen to blame IMO and 2) will not affect whether or not he stays with Allison for the duration of the show, so it's moot.

I see your point, I just think there is a difference between temptation and blowing up your life. His interactions with other people just got considerably worse because of what he did to his family. I can understand been dissatisfied with his life: he's had writer's block for how long and her parents don't think much of him. Even then, although her parents are the worst, there has to be something there to keep him around. Basically, my stance is really about this "Helen player her part too." Even if Noah left for reasons you said, that is more of a reflection of him. Noah doesn't like himself, but he has a hard time owning behaving and recognizing how it impacts others. 

 

Noah seems to being going through a hybrid of midlife crisis, low self esteem, and egocentrism. Although Helen should've checked her parents, she seemed supportive and they had your average marriage as far as interactions go. Noah was just Noah to her--the man she's spend most of her life with. With Alison, he wants her world to revolve around him, he wants her to think he's the greatest at sex and open her legs when he's in the mood, he wants her to praise him because he's the greatest guy ever. He doesn't flat out say the, but come on, he's POV has Alison looking and lusting after him as if rainbows shoot out his ass.

[krpa]

Has anyone noticed that in the previous episode Scotty said he found some hedge fund guy  who's willing to invest in a night club and in this episode Helen's mother said that Max runs a hedge fund? I wonder if Max might be Soctty's investor. He's been to The End with Noah in first season.

 

Btw, can someone explain me what the significance of Bisquick brand is (I'm not from USA/Britain)?

Edited November 10, 2015 by krpa

[right]

Although Noah seems to genuinely believe he left his wife because he fell in love with Allison, I am not sure that I believe it. He may have never articulated his dissatisfaction, but I think we observed it. However, I don't think he was dissatisfied with Helen specifically, but rather his life --particularly his unsuccessful career. The fact that his in-laws looked down on him and were not checked by Helen exacerbated the issue. (I think that a person can face the same temptation when they are vulnerable and when they are not, and have two very different reactions.) That made him vulnerable to the attraction to Allison, the same way that Allison's grief made her vulnerable to Noah's attentions. Whether he actually fell in love with Allison or was running from his life 1) does not make Helen to blame IMO and 2) will not affect whether or not he stays with Allison for the duration of the show, so it's moot.

 

 

Noah left his marriage because he lusted after a younger woman and he selfishly gave into his wants.  Allison just happened to be the perfect cheating partner that went along with everything Noah wanted.  So yes, she has fed his ego in ways a wife like Helen wouldn't do.  Noah did not "love" Allison when the affair started, and I don't believe he could honestly say he had fallen out of love with Helen when the affair began.  His actions cannot be justified by saying "you can't fight true love".  I agree with you that he is simply running away from a life that didn't pan out the way he wanted. 

[chocolatine]

Btw, can someone explain me what the significance of Bisquick brand is (I'm not from USA/Britain)?

 

It's a brand of pancake mix. When Noah was making the kids breakfast at Helen's house, he noticed that instead of the Bisquick pancake mix they usually had (presumably while they were married), Helen now uses a fancier organic pancake mix. I thought it meant that Helen started buying higher-quality groceries after Martin's Crohn's diagnosis, but it wasn't elaborated on.

[jrlr]

Although Noah seems to genuinely believe he left his wife because he fell in love with Allison, I am not sure that I believe it. He may have never articulated his dissatisfaction, but I think we observed it. However, I don't think he was dissatisfied with Helen specifically, but rather his life --particularly his unsuccessful career. The fact that his in-laws looked down on him and were not checked by Helen exacerbated the issue. (I think that a person can face the same temptation when they are vulnerable and when they are not, and have two very different reactions.) That made him vulnerable to the attraction to Allison, the same way that Allison's grief made her vulnerable to Noah's attentions. Whether he actually fell in love with Allison or was running from his life 1) does not make Helen to blame IMO and 2) will not affect whether or not he stays with Allison for the duration of the show, so it's moot.

I think this is the most emotionally and psychologically convincing description I've read here.  It's kind of the Occam's Razor of explanations for the motives and the actions of the characters, especially the intense initial pull between Noah and Alison.  

 

But now things have shifted.  Now Alison understands that her previous self-destructive and reckless behavior  was in response to Gabriel's death - that's huge character development.  And then we have Noah who - aside from seeming a little wistful over  the formerly close family he abandoned - doesn't seem to have learned anything about himself at all.  They're an ill-matched pair from the start, and even though I don't admire Alison's character,  she gets points for at least trying to push past the pain and grow, whereas Noah just seems to be exactly the same character we met at the beginning of Season 1 - but with success, which has only made him more obnoxious and grandiose.    

[SlackerInc]

I'm glad she finally threw her toxic mother out. It's one thing to say nasty things to Helen and Noah directly; it's another thing to try to get Martin to say that he hates his dad. I loved his response - "I hate all of you."

 

I think he said "I hate everyone", which is similar but not quite the same.

 

But Noah being acquited does not protect anyone. If he were convicted, the authorities would put it to rest, but if he were found not quilty they could persue the case against someone else.

 

 

It's not too common that the state tries someone for a murder after someone else has already been acquitted for that murder. It's essentially admitting you tried the wrong person the first time.

 

Yes, I was thinking this--and that not only would it be embarrassing before the public, it would also give the defense ammunition.  They could snark about how they are just hauling various potential killers into court until they get a conviction.  In response to every vigorous appeal to the jury about how so-and-so is guilty and should be convicted, they could come back with the rejoinder "Just a few months ago you were just as emphatic that Noah Holloway was the murderer".  Hard to see how the DA would find it worthwhile to even mess with it.

 

I thought this completely. The parents were more at peace, and the children were more lovable. Good reminder that they probably weren't all that horrible in the earlier episodes either—it was a matter of the parents being in turmoil.

 

Reasonable people can disagree, and I don't think Noah could get convicted in a court of law, but that sex scene was clearly Noah using sex as a weapon. Using sex to control and to dominate. Probably not criminal, but IMO the worst betrayal of your partner. There's Alison, feeling in control, centered, and an agent of her own life. She shared with him her realization about herself and her grief—monumental stuff. And right there in the middle of that, he takes her right back to that place.

 

Now, again, this was Noah's perception, and he previously had admitted that he was the bad guy in the story. I observed this two weeks ago—I don't think Noah likes himself very much. So who knows what actually took place at that tree. But it was rough to watch. And Alison—damn, I wanted her to scream or to turn around and kick him square in the balls. I hope the next thing out of her mouth, after "I'm pregnant," was "and it's Cole's." Because Noah's actions in that scene were the complete opposite of loving and, as a wise old couple I know used to say, "life-giving."

 

Yeah, I agree with all of this.  Not rape, but not a good way to act either.  I hope he apologizes, because I generally like Noah, and I didn't like what he did there.

I do lose some respect for Alison every time she dives deep into all that woo-woo nonsense though.

[EyesGlazed]

I'm hoping that in the next episode, while drinking coffee in the kitchen or something, Noah slaps his forehead and shouts, "What did she mean, she hasn't had sex in 6 weeks!  I hadn't had sex in 7 weeks before I attacked her by the tree!"  Then he storms off to find Alison and confront her about whose baby it is.

 

It's really interesting that the show keeps making Noah less and less likable.  In the first season, I felt a lot of sympathy for him given his home life and his real (I thought) efforts to resist his attraction to Alison.  But now, he shows appalling behavior every episode, even when the story is told from his POV!  Is the show setting him up for a redemption arc?  Like he goes to prison for Whitney?

 

Alison's newly learned insights about her own behavior rang true to me.  And she seemed more confident about talking about her feelings and wants.  Until the tree. Man I hated that scene.  I don't think it was rape, but it was certainly bullying via sex.  Shame on you, Noah, you libidinous egomaniacal skank.

[blixie]

 

don't think it's unlikely that there isn't a lot of money left in the trust at this point. She purchased the house, sent the kids to private schools, and opened a store that has apparently never made a profit, all of which adds up to a few millions of dollars.

 

Bruce and Margaret were definitely paying for the private schools directly they threw it in her face, she probably did finance the store through her trust (which one hopes she's dumped so it's no longer a drain on her funds), but she owns the home, she has whatever money is left in trust, and whatever child support she's getting from Noah. Again my impression is that Margaret is OLD MONEY super wealthy, so I imagine her trust from her parents was quite sizable. You don't own a store and happily take a loss for as many years as she obviously had unless you have not one momentary concern about the money running out.

 

It's obviously a seismic shift for her though to not think about her parents money being HER money, and to start managing what she has so it will provide and last.

 

 

but she chose love over money.

 

NO. She had money and she had her "love", she never considered forfeiting her status, money, and wealth to be with Noah, it was never some zero sum option.Quite the opposite, her parents bankrolled her out the wazoo to be sure her and her family had the life Helen was accustomed to. And Noah never got over their class difference, it's huge part of what drove him to "blow up their life". She as much admitted that she "chose" him over Max or someone like Max because he was safe and stable, that he wasn't a rich arrogant prick like the rest of her options (and obviously like her dad) and less likely to cheat because of that.

 

Apparently, criticizing Helen is the third rail. I like Helen a ton, she's my favorite character, but yes I think when you continually denigrate a person based on their class/status, as she does with Allison (mad at her cause she fucked your husband? fine cool go girl, demeaning her as person because she waited tables? - sorry, you're not HITLER, but you are acting like an ASSHOLE,and yes, a snob). I was at pains to point out this is the ONLY problem I have with Helen, I don't think she's a terrible person, I thinks sometimes, like most people, she acts like a jerk and can be criticized for that behavior.

[Milburn Stone]

For a minute there I was thinking, "Hmm, maybe I should try Reiki. It seems to be making a beneficial change in Noah." But...I guess not.

[RococoChanel]

I too don't think Helen is a snob at all. She could have married someone like Max if she were. Helen married for love. We only think she is a snob because she has so much money. If she were a regular stay at home mom without a trust fund, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[HumblePi]

That would be Helen's mother!   But what's interesting about this show is that although Helen's father has a ton of money he is pretty low brow.  So is the mother with her foul big mouth.  They didn't make the family one with a long history of important people or intellectuals or the usual stereotypes.  Helen's father probably comes from a working class family.  So I don't think class is a real issue, or shouldn't be anyway.

I could be wrong but I seem to remember Bruce Butler relating a story about how his ancestors were settled in Montauk during the prohibition days and were 'rum-runners'.  Back in those days of the 1930's smugglers of whiskey coming in from Canada was a very lucrative business, albeit illegal. Bruce also had a talk with Noah about Alison and how she's Noah's muse just like his own 'muse' and compares her to Alison. Bruce is divorcing Margaret to marry his 'muse' after a 40 year relationship with this other woman. "We're not that very much different you and I."

 

When Noah and Helen went to stay with the Butler's for the summer months, Noah had total writer's block and couldn't type a single word on a page of his new novel. After meeting Alison he was suddenly inspired passionately and begun what would be his successful novel. After completing the novel it was as though he no longer needed Alison as his muse and his intense need to be with her waned. It was only the ending of the book that his publisher insisted he find some way to change the ending into something more tragic did he return back to Alison and to the retreat. After channeling his inner self with Athena's help, he found his demons and was able to finish the novel.

Edited November 10, 2015 by HumblePi

[Empress1]

NO. She had money and she had her "love", she never considered forfeiting her status, money, and wealth to be with Noah, it was never some zero sum option.Quite the opposite, her parents bankrolled her out the wazoo to be sure her and her family had the life Helen was accustomed to. 

Right. The "love or money" argument only holds water if Helen had chosen one over the other. She didn't. If her parents had said "we will cut you off completely if you marry Noah" and she went ahead and married him and had to get a 9-5, or scramble and hustle to open a small business and busted her ass putting the long hours and work to make it successful, or if she'd been a SAHM to their four kids and lived on a teacher's salary in Queens or Jersey and cut coupons, then I think we could say she chose love over money, but she didn't do any of that. She didn't have to. And as I've said, I've never gotten the impression that she would have. 

 

I don't think Helen is a bad person. I actually like her (I thought the apple core thing was funny, but then again that kid is a little shit, so ...) I'm sympathetic to her in a lot of ways. My mother described divorce as the end of an era; even under the best of circumstances, which this CLEARLY is not, divorce is a huge disruption in routine. But I don't see her as particularly noble either.

 

Side note: HBO is all about the full frontal male nudity lately. It's on The Leftovers too.

[RedInk]

I still stand by my "love over money" statement as it relates to Helen being a snob. Maybe we have different definitions for the term; I don't know. It's absolutely correct that she wouldn't lose her wealth by choosing Noah - no argument. What I'm saying is that even without the risk of financial loss, an old-money, die-hard snob wouldn't choose a teacher from a humble background for a partner. People who are obsessed with money and social status wouldn't marry someone who doesn't have it. Those people (like her mom) think less of those who aren't wealthy, and would choose Max over Noah 100% of the time. We have no way of knowing if she would have given up everything to marry Noah, but we for sure know she's mortgaging her home for him in the present. Disparaging Allison for being a waitress is irrelevant to me, because I give anyone devastated by the loss of her husband a free pass to criticize the other woman any way she wants. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here!

[izabella]

I thought Noah's book ending was very interesting.  We finally saw the face on the victim, and it was Allison's.  Not only that, Allison was smiling - a huge, happy smile we've never seen on her face before, ever.  Noah as the driver doesn't brake, and just runs her over.  Is it murder?  Is it an accident?  It seemed more deliberate than murder.  Did they show him accelerating after he sees her huge smiling face?

 

I'm intrigued by the possible metaphorical meanings.  Noah has to destroy Allison's happiness for him to be happy?  Noah only likes Allison when she's "dark" and miserable and needy? 

[Constantinople]

It always concerns me when a show has a celebrity guest who plays him or herself.

 

Though it's too late for Helen's store to appear in Tabitha Takes Over, I suppose Helen could always show-up in RHONY.

[Boundary]

Honestly, your stance confuses me: Noah was fine and perfectly happy in the marriage, but Helen contributed to the dissolution of their marriage...

 

Like I said, I prefer to see more layers. Would I say it's Helen's "fault" that Noah cheated? Clearly, no. Noah met Alison, had a little connection, tried to stay away, bumped into her again, connected some more and started an affair. None of those decisions were Helen's. And I think Noah has taken full responsibility for that, which he must. But Helen did contribute to the state of the marriage, including the influence of Margaret and Bruce. As someone has put it more eloquently, the same temptation can result in two different outcomes. That's why I keep saying I think Helen's change was profound, it went further than "I'm tired of fighting, let's mediate." It was a self awareness type of thing, Martin almost died and in her mind her own mother could have been responsible. It's a horrific thought that made her reassess who Margaret is and what she has done. And what Helen has allowed her to do. She took responsibility. I'll repeat, this Helen would not make that speech to Alison, this Helen wouldn't even need to, with this Helen Noah would've been happier, less prone to temptation and wanting out. Alison meeting Noah wasn't an inevitable affair waiting to happen, just like that young woman at Noah's swimming pool session. 

[Lemons]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember Bruce Butler relating a story about how his ancestors were settled in Montauk during the prohibition days and were 'rum-runners'.  Back in those days of the 1930's smugglers of whiskey coming in from Canada was a very lucrative business, albeit illegal. Bruce also had a talk with Noah about Alison and how she's Noah's muse just like his own 'muse' and compares her to Alison. Bruce is divorcing Margaret to marry his 'muse' after a 40 year relationship with this other woman. "We're not that very much different you and I."

 

So Bruce comes from a family of low brow criminals.  And Margaret thinks that Helen married beneath her?    Why would Helen want to marry someone like her parents?  But unfortunately Noah is turning out just like her father.   

[RedheadZombie]

He roughly takes her up the backside against a tree.

 

Were we supposed to think it was anal sex?  I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but I assumed it was P in V sex.  Just as I assumed it was with Cole/Alison and Noah/Helen.  I think the show tries to make it's sex scenes pretty raw and gritty, but I can't believe they meant for us to believe Noah raped Alison.  I think the show runner needs to get on top of this.  I was really turned off Outlander when they had a male character being raped by his tormentor, but in a very steamy sensual way.  The mixed messages are really just too much.  I can excuse this stuff on Game of Thrones because it's based off of Medieval times, and it's fantasy. 

 

And maybe they should consider giving trigger warnings for this type of scene.  I'm not a rape survivor, but plenty of them may watch this show.

[Empress1]

I don't think it was anal, I think it was vaginal from behind. There was a scene last season where Noah says he wants to do something in bed that Alison has never done with anyone else and they land on anal sex (she's never done it, he has), but I don't think this was that. 

 

Re: Alison wanting sex to happen, no, I don't think she did. I think she was resigned to it happening once Noah got going, but I don't think she wanted it or enjoyed it.

[RedInk]

So Bruce comes from a family of low brow criminals. And Margaret thinks that Helen married beneath her? Why would Helen want to marry someone like her parents? But unfortunately Noah is turning out just like her father.

Good point and maybe that's some insight into Helen's mother. That she wouldn't want her daughter to marry someone who reminds her of her rotten husband? Sorry to give the woman any credit, but we haven't exactly seen things from her perspective. Edited November 10, 2015 by RedInk

[MaggieG]

I know some people are speculating that in the end the two original couples end up back together, I hope that isn't the case. I want Helen to ride of into the sunset with the cute Doctor and Cole to be happy with the his new bartender/babysitter wife. If we are correct in assuming that he marries her, that would mean he would have to divorce her to get back together with Alison. Out of all of them, I want Cole to have a happy ending.

I was pleasantly surprised at how nice Whitney was. Up until the end when she refused to share a room with her little sister. It's only for a weekend, chill out! I did like the hug between her and Helen.

Martin slayed me with his I hate everyone line!

I was laughing pretty hard when Noah was running around trying to find a quiet place to type and couldn't! Too much chanting and too many bugs and oh no, here comes Athena with her reiki!

Of course Sebastian Junger shows up, because why not and of course there are nude men frolicking around.

[HumblePi]

In the first episode of the season, Helen told the mediator that the brownstone was purchased through the trust. In the fourth episode of this season, when asked by the judge if Helen owned the brownstone, Gottlief replied, "Not outright, Your Honor. It was purchased though a trust in 2003."

I don't recall that it's ever been stated that Helen is the trustee. In any case, how could Helen be both the trustee and the beneficiary?

The mediator said the brownstone would be Helen and Noah's joint property if Helen owned the brownstone outright since it was purchased during the marriage. I don't understand why that would change if the trust were revocable.

It's too confusing for me. If Bruce Butler's money was used to set up the trust by which Helen purchased her Brownstone then it might be his decision as to what happens to it.

[RedheadZombie]

I'm intrigued by the possible metaphorical meanings.  Noah has to destroy Allison's happiness for him to be happy?  Noah only likes Allison when she's "dark" and miserable and needy? 

 

As I stated upthread, I'm beginning to wonder if a lot of these scenes are metaphorical versus literal.  It makes the show more layered and interesting, but I'd like some confirmation from the writers.  It makes a lot of the scenes easier to digest, IMO. 

 

I still stand by my "love over money" statement as it relates to Helen being a snob. Maybe we have different definitions for the term; I don't know. It's absolutely correct that she wouldn't lose her wealth by choosing Noah - no argument. What I'm saying is that even without the risk of financial loss, an old-money, die-hard snob wouldn't choose a teacher from a humble background for a partner. People who are obsessed with money and social status wouldn't marry someone who doesn't have it. Those people (like her mom) think less of those who aren't wealthy, and would choose Max over Noah 100% of the time. We have no way of knowing if she would have given up everything to marry Noah, but we for sure know she's mortgaging her home for him in the present. Disparaging Allison for being a waitress is irrelevant to me, because I give anyone devastated by the loss of her husband a free pass to criticize the other woman any way she wants. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here!

 

I'm one who thinks Helen is a snob.  She learned it from her mother, and she's handing it down to Whitney.  I think it was confirmed in this last episode when she dismissed the pediatric nurse as just "a waitress" again.  I don't think it's deliberate necessarily, she's more a casual snob than anything else. I think she truly loved Noah, but she told him point blank that she chose him because he was too boring to cheat on her.  Fine.  A lot of women choose men because they're "safe". 

 

I get the impression that Helen was very idealistic in college - as many children of privilege are.  It can be easy to idealize the working class lifestyle, especially when you're being raised by two cold self-involved people, and possibly sent away to boarding school as many of the rich send their children.  Noah wasn't in college to pass the time, and he probably had to earn scholarships and work himself through.  Considering how snobby her parents are, Noah may have been the first person of modest means that Helen ever really knew.  And as irresponsible as it was for Noah to lose his teaching job, I think it was clear he was passionate about it.  That's a lot more appealing to a lot of women than a hedge fund manager.  And I bet Helen knew Max would just cheat on her constantly.  She thought Noah would be faithful.  She thought she was saving herself a lot of suffering, but being cheated on by faithless Max would have been a lot less painful than being cheated on by Noah.

 

 There was no tenderness, no love, no emotion other than anger. Yes, in my opinion this was rape. To even the score after the backstreet sex, she tells him she's pregnant. It's almost like a retaliation for this mistreatment, by implying without saying 'and it's not yours'.  Yes, Alison believes that she's nothing to Noah other than a sex object, which may or may not be true.

 

I don't think Alison told him she was pregnant to retaliate.  I don't know how I feel about the rest of the scene, but I know that.  Having read romantic fiction most of my life, I almost fear this was how the scene was intended:  Alison was being distant from Noah (probably greatly due to the pregnancy), and Noah sensed the distance but didn't know the cause.  They were disconnected, and Noah was frustrated by her distance.   After his passion was released from the new age treatment by Athena, Noah was able to break through (man-handle) and re-connect with Alison through sex.  Sensing the re-connection, Alison is able to confide in Noah about the pregnancy.  Facing away from him makes it easier to tell him.

 

This isn't how I saw it, mind you, but I do think Alison held off on telling him she was pregnant because she was unsure of the relationship.  As much as Alison now recognizes she uses sex to connect, it doesn't mean it no longer works.  Since it's how they always connect, she felt close enough to tell him she was pregnant.  I'm not so sure she was as content to go without sex as she claimed.  I think she was testing Noah by saying that, and maybe taking out some of her frustration on him.  He was extremely happy back in Helen's home - both in his and Helen's versions - and that surely spilled over in the six weeks he only texted and called Alison.  It would take a far more confident woman than Alison to not be shaken by that.

[briochetwist]

 

I'm one who thinks Helen is a snob.  She learned it from her mother, and she's handing it down to Whitney.  I think it was confirmed in this last episode when she dismissed the pediatric nurse as just "a waitress" again.  I don't think it's deliberate necessarily, she's more a casual snob than anything else.

I just don't understand this at all.  Why is Helen supposed to think of Allison in any sort of favorable light?  She had an affair with her husband and broke up her family.  Period.  

 

I also don't think that Helen is handing anything down to Whitney.  I think Whitney is a bitchy, entitled pain in the ass based on the fact that she's thin, beautiful, stylish and probably pretty damn popular at school.  Whitney also went crazy for dirt poor, trashy Scotty, so I don't see how you can consider her to be a snob.  

[Empress1]

I also don't think that Helen is handing anything down to Whitney.  I think Whitney is a bitchy, entitled pain in the ass based on the fact that she's thin, beautiful, stylish and probably pretty damn popular at school.  Whitney also went crazy for dirt poor, trashy Scotty, so I don't see how you can consider her to be a snob.  

Whitney's fling with Scotty is classic rebellion, IMO. Someone like Scotty - older, from the wrong side of the tracks, a little dangerous - would be appealing to someone like her because he's very different from the prep school boys she knows at home. I don't doubt that she was attracted to him, but there's nothing that indicates to me that that was a real relationship with any substance. It was a summer fling. Whitney could have been fucking Scotty and still look down on him. I'm sure she was attracted to him, but did she love him for real? Did she know about his life in a real, substantive way? I very much doubt it. She may have thought she did - she's really dramatic, as a general rule - but I don't see any indication that that's true. It's very, very easy to fuck someone without loving or respecting them.

[briochetwist]

Whitney's fling with Scotty is classic rebellion, IMO. Someone like Scotty - older, from the wrong side of the tracks, a little dangerous - would be appealing to someone like her because he's very different from the prep school boys she knows at home. I don't doubt that she was attracted to him, but there's nothing that indicates to me that that was a real relationship with any substance. It was a summer fling. Whitney could have been fucking Scotty and still look down on him. I'm sure she was attracted to him, but did she love him for real? Did she know about his life in a real, substantive way? I very much doubt it. She may have thought she did - she's really dramatic, as a general rule - but I don't see any indication that that's true. It's very, very easy to fuck someone without loving or respecting them.

Love?  Who said anything about love?  I highly doubt she loved him, she was 17, as which most relationships at that age I doubt there was a lot of substance. Pretty sure she was in lust with him though.  

[Empress1]

Right, I agree that she didn't love Scotty - I said as much. I was responding to the point you made about how Whitney "went crazy" over Scotty - you seemed to offer that as proof that Whitney isn't a snob, and I disagree with that. You can lust after someone and still look down on them; you can lust after someone you hate. Lusting after someone and/or having sex with them is no indication that you actually value them as a person.

[Lemons]

I also don't think that Helen is handing anything down to Whitney.  I think Whitney is a bitchy, entitled pain in the ass based on the fact that she's thin, beautiful, stylish and probably pretty damn popular at school.  Whitney also went crazy for dirt poor, trashy Scotty, so I don't see how you can consider her to be a snob.  

 

Plenty of teens are beautiful, thin, popular, etc and are still able to be decent people.  Some of the scenes show Margaret teaching Whitney how to be mean and petty and Helen is in the scenes being passive and not saying anything.  They show Noah objecting to Margaret's boorish behavior.  So I do see Helen as having some responsibility for Whitney being an ugly person on the outside.  Helen hasn't stood up to her parents in any form and that includes teaching her children bad behavior. 

[briochetwist]

Plenty of teens are beautiful, thin, popular, etc and are still able to be decent people.  Some of the scenes show Margaret teaching Whitney how to be mean and petty and Helen is in the scenes being passive and not saying anything.  They show Noah objecting to Margaret's boorish behavior.  So I do see Helen as having some responsibility for Whitney being an ugly person on the outside.  Helen hasn't stood up to her parents in any form and that includes teaching her children bad behavior. 

I don't think all of this is on Helen.  Until this season, most of the behaviour that everyone says is snobby, is from Noah's point of view, Helen didn't have a voice at all until this season.  Everything we knew about Helen came straight from him, someone who is trying to show himself in a better light.  Noah's behaviour in front of his children is just as bad as Margaret's, and this is also seen in his own POV.  He is an absolute asshat who up until this last episode has put his own needs over his kids every time.  So why are Helen and Margaret the only ones responsible for Whitney's behaviour and upbringing?

 

Do I think all attractive teens aren't decent people?  No, of course not.  I just don't think Whitney and Helen are the snobs that people seem to think they are.   

[Constantinople]

So Bruce comes from a family of low brow criminals.  And Margaret thinks that Helen married beneath her?    Why would Helen want to marry someone like her parents?  But unfortunately Noah is turning out just like her father.

 

 

Good point and maybe that's some insight into Helen's mother. That she wouldn't want her daughter to marry someone who reminds her of her rotten husband? Sorry to give the woman any credit, but we haven't exactly seen things from her perspective.

 

I think it's the Lockharts, not the Butlers, with historic ties to smuggling.

 

In Episode 6 of Season 1, Oscar gave Noah a local history lesson after Scotty took money out of Oscar's cash register and Oscar retaliated by dropping the dime on the Lockharts' cab operation.

Noah: What was all that about?

Oscar: Fucking dealers, man.

Noah: Who?

Oscar: The Lockharts. They own that ranch out towards the lighthouse. It's a front. They're as dirty as dirt. Their great-grandfather ran a bootleg operation. It's fucking hereditary. Put that in your book. Use their names.

For that matter, in the series premiere, Allison told Noah that her grandfather was a fisherman.

As for Bruce, in Episode 2 of this season, Bruce tells his cabbie (Cole) that Bruce had been in Montauk for 40 years. It doesn't sound as if the Butlers had multi-generational ties to Montauk.

[Neurochick]

I think Helen finally grew up.  I have always felt her problem was she never really left home.  I mean she's a woman in her forties and her parents have to help her with the DUI?  Maybe Helen's marriage to Noah was a "fuck you" to her parents, but in reality she never truly left them.  I'm glad she finally spoke up to that witch of a mother, what did she say?  "You're taking my grandchildren to THE BRONX?"  Shit lady, what decade did she get stuck in, what an awful person!

 

I don't think Helen gave in to Noah; she just didn't want to fight any more.  It's like "would you rather be happy or would you rather be right?"  Helen just wanted to be happy.  Almost losing her son made Helen realize all that bickering was full of bullshit, the woman just wants peace.

 

I caught Noah's wistful look at the brownstone.  I felt Noah was thinking, "if it was like this all the time, I never would have left," as if his reason for straying was THEM, instead of him.  

 

I once knew an RN who does reiki massage.  Does it work?  Who knows, but it worked on Noah.  Athena read Noah completely, he fell in love with a messed up Alison and was threatened by a healthy Alison.  The sex against the tree wasn't supposed to be hot, it was supposed to be desperate and angry.  That massage woke something up in Noah, something he didn't want to deal with.  

 

You know, someone posted a week or two ago that they feel like Noah and Alison are coming off more like a hookup that went really bad and they're both kind of stuck now. Because they essentially blew up their lives, especially him with a wife and four children, so they kind of have to stick it out to prove it wasn't all for nothing. But the great love and soulmate relationship - yeah no. And I have to agree with that.

 

I have felt that way since this season began and this episode proved it.  Alison was in a bad place, Noah was there and that's why she went for him; and Noah had had it with his nasty in laws; both of them were looking for something but never expected it to be permanent.  

Edited November 11, 2015 by Neurochick

[krpa]

Were we supposed to think it was anal sex?  I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but I assumed it was P in V sex.  Just as I assumed it was with Cole/Alison and Noah/Helen.  I think the show tries to make it's sex scenes pretty raw and gritty, but I can't believe they meant for us to believe Noah raped Alison. 

I don't like any of the sex scenes in this show. Every time Noah has sex with someone there is ZERO foreplay and he's done in about a minute. Come on, who would want to have sex with a guy like this more than a few times?

[RedheadZombie]

I don't like any of the sex scenes in this show. Every time Noah has sex with someone there is ZERO foreplay and he's done in about a minute. Come on, who would want to have sex with a guy like this more than a few times?

Ha! Probably from years of hurrying before the kids would interrupt.

[krpa]

^^ with Alison there was no such danger. I mean, I know it's just a tv show, but could have portrayed it a bit differently. Or at least the couple having sex could use some lube/saliva...it just looks so painful.

[Pallas]

Last season, as his affair with Alison was just getting underway, Noah met with Bruce's agent to pitch a new book: he proposed a story set in Montauk about an affair that ended with the man's murdering the woman. The agent said he thought that ending made the story less mundane and showed some promise. The manuscript that Noah eventually submitted, however, changed the ending: both lovers survived, living together with some unspoken (and to us, still undisclosed) secret between them. Since then Noah hasn't been so much blocked, as he's been stubbornly and perhaps lovingly resisting putting his hand to the outcome that his agent still demands: the death of Sex, run down by the hero on the dark road to The End.  

 

A couple of years later, Scotty Lockhart was accidentally or deliberately killed in remarkably similar circumstances. Just as any of the dozens of people who knew Scotty had motive to kill him, any one of the hundreds of thousands who read Noah's book could seem to have a copy of the killer's confession, before the fact. Noah didn't do it, I'm pretty sure: but it's Noah and Helen, rather than Noah and Alison, who now share the secret of who did. 

[Milburn Stone]

I can't believe they meant for us to believe Noah raped Alison.  I think the show runner needs to get on top of this.

 

Not sure what you mean by that. The show runner needs to explain something to America about her own show?

 

What if ambiguity was the point?

[Lemons]

I think it's the Lockharts, not the Butlers, with historic ties to smuggling. In Episode 6 of Season 1, Oscar gave Noah a local history lesson after Scotty took money out of Oscar's cash register .

So we haven't learned anything about Bruce and Margaret's background ? We also haven't learned if Helen has any of her own money.

So why are Helen and Margaret the only ones responsible for Whitney's behaviour and upbringing?

 

I think Noah has a lot of negative influence on the children. but they have clearly shown Margaret encouraging bad behavior and, yes, snobbery, to Whitney. And it has worked well because Whitney is an unlikable child. It's true, we have seen most of Helens passivity from Noah's view. It will be interesting, now that Helen has proclaimed that she hates her mother, to see if she tries to gain control of her children's behavior and try to eliminate the damage done by her mother.