S02.E06: Catch and Release

[CooperTV]

After an American aid worker is killed in Syria by the first known American ISIS leader, Elizabeth recalls all aid workers stationed there, including her brother, Will, and makes it her mission to get justice for the victim. Also, Henry is conflicted when Dmitri asks for help saving Ivan, who has been called back to Moscow.

 

[Xantar]

Will may be a good doctor, and he may have a point about the point of view of State Department policymakers. But he's a horrible human being and an asshole. He won't come home to see his daughter? And he justifies it because "that's the deal"? Nope. You've lost me. And he can't even have dinner without turning it into an almost literal food fight.

 

But now I see where Jason got his self-righteous attitude. I hope the writers weren't expecting us to like Uncle Will because I wanted to punch him in the face repeatedly throughout this episode. 

[shapeshifter]

I saw Will as The Voice Of Those Against Drone Strikes, etc. rather than a real person. He served to allow Elisabeth to make her case.

[betsyboo]

I loved all of it. I loved that the President had to make a horrible decision based on what's best for the country and not the "jed bartlet" way. (don't get me wrong, TWW is one of my top five shows of all time, but I am enjoying that on MS, not everything turns out ok at the end after doing the 'right thing.')

 

I thought Bess and Eric Stoltz acted like siblings, and I loved that she had to use information gleaned from him for the greater good, knowing it was going to result in a bad encounter. While I could see poor Ivan's drastic choice a mile away, I loved that Henry isn't *quite the master he fancies himself.

 

I will continue to repeat it week after week, but i LOVELOVELOVE their marriage. and their interactions with each other,

[missbonnie]

This show just keeps on winning as far as I'm concerned on every level. It's a shame that CBS insists upon leaving this show on Sunday nights because people are seriously frustrated with trying to watch/dvr it with the continued late starts due to football.

Edited November 9, 2015 by missbonnie

[shapeshifter]

When President Carradine flew into a rage, I said to my TV: Finally! We get to see him act.

[Brian Cronin]

I think that might be the most manipulative that we've ever seen Elizabeth act. Taking her own brother out fishing just to surreptitiously pry information about the courier he uses so that she can KILL that courier and the terrorist? That was some serious spy shit right there. I'm impressed with them having her be that willing to use her brother like that.

[Netfoot]

Taking her own brother out fishing just to surreptitiously pry information about the courier he uses so that she can KILL that courier and the terrorist?

 

Did she know about that before taking him fishing?  (Trying to remember.)  Or was the fishing trip a legitimate family pleasure, and the info about the meds-smuggler surfaced during the course of the trip?

[shapeshifter]

Did she know about that before taking him fishing?  (Trying to remember.)  Or was the fishing trip a legitimate family pleasure, and the info about the meds-smuggler surfaced during the course of the trip?

That's how I saw it, except I wouldn't use the word "pleasure." I thought the fishing trip was initially intended to mend fences with her brother. I'm not sure when the agenda changed. Did she not think of the drug supplier angle until they were on the trip and she asked him to talk about his work? Or did something between the plan for the fishing trip and the conversation beat about his work give her the idea? I don't recall.

Edited November 9, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Dowel Jones]

That wasn't fishing, either.  You either talk, or you fish.  Not both.  Norman McLean would not approve. 

 

While it didn't bother me that they opted to kill their target, I had to snort at the CoS's line about three rings of security at that ISIS base.  You guys have heard of helicopters, right?  And who leaked the video of the attack, and why?

 

I hate to tell the USAID lady, but your agency is a de facto arm of the State Department, charged with fostering development in order to further US foreign policy.  You don't always get to ask, "Why are we doing this?".  Just my take on the exchange.

 

Lt. Col. Dr. MI-6 Arm Candy gets all huffy because his son gets excited over a drone strike.  You didn't perchance feel the same way flying around in your fighter back in the day, did you?  But you got religion, since then.

[Netfoot]

But you got religion, since then.

 

Funny thing about religion.  You can agonize for a few seconds about poor Ivan, then continue to place Dimitri in far more danger every time you go near the kid.

[myril]

Lt. Col. Dr. MI-6 Arm Candy gets all huffy because his son gets excited over a drone strike.  You didn't perchance feel the same way flying around in your fighter back in the day, did you?  But you got religion, since then.

You don't need to celebrate a kill to be okay with doing it. So no, Henry might have felt not the same way back in the day flying around in his fighter. It's interesting how Jason went from wannabe anarchist to high fiving a drone kill.

 

I saw Will as The Voice Of Those Against Drone Strikes, etc. rather than a real person. He served to allow Elisabeth to make her case.

Will certainly voiced some of what can be heard sometimes from people against drone strikes or calling for more and immediate humanitarian engagement in Syria and other places. Have had such discussions. And had such discussions particular inside my family, with siblings, which made that fight between Will and Elizabeth something I can relate with in real. 

 

Funny thing about religion.  You can agonize for a few seconds about poor Ivan, then continue to place Dimitri in far more danger every time you go near the kid.

Maybe not just a funny thing about religion but about being human, I think. 

It is something I like about this show, it does play in politics but shows the people behind it, with their feelings. Henry doesn't come across as someone liking what he is doing, or simply justifying it and not talk about it again. He is hesitant about it, aware of that he is putting a young man even more in harms way than he might be anyway, he still does it, and though he might have good reasons, I don't get from the show the feeling, that he is necessarily right about doing it. The same with some of the things Bess is doing, like how she jumped at the information her brother served her despite that she likely really meant this little fishing trip to be something else. 

 

While I could see poor Ivan's drastic choice a mile away, I loved that Henry isn't *quite the master he fancies himself.

 

Indeed, sometimes he seems kinda close to perfect, and seen people complain about it, rightly, but he is not perfect. 

Edited November 9, 2015 by myril

[jzygayle]

This show just keeps on winning as far as I'm concerned on every level. It's a shame that CBS insists upon leaving this show on Sunday nights because people are seriously frustrated with trying to watch/dvr it with the continued late starts due to football.

I just extended the end time of this recording for 2 and half hours.

[Kromm]

Interesting how CONVENIENTLY when you have a different writing team on the episode, the NSA heavy goes away and Russel shows back up (when he's been largely absent when the NSA guy was around).

 

Eric Stoltz, as always with everything he does, just annoys. I guess that works when it's his main character note though.  Maybe he's still bitter about not being Marty McFly.  I know... we can call him "Marty McFlyfishing" instead.

You don't need to celebrate a kill to be okay with doing it. So no, Henry might have felt not the same way back in the day flying around in his fighter. It's interesting how Jason went from wannabe anarchist to high fiving a drone kill.

Exactly. I smell a writing fail here. The reaction seems TOTALLY at odds with the version of the kid from last season who'd be preaching right along with his insufferable Uncle.

[Netfoot]

The reaction seems TOTALLY at odds with the version of the kid from last season who'd be preaching right along with his insufferable Uncle.

 

You forgot.  Since then, he became a jock!

[candall]

Lt. Col. Dr. MI-6 Arm Candy gets all huffy because his son gets excited over a drone strike.  You didn't perchance feel the same way flying around in your fighter back in the day, did you?  But you got religion, since then.

There was a particularly trenchant Doonesbury strip, back in its heyday--which was, what? post-Vietnam?--where the village was being bombed and the villagers were dodging artillery and shaking their fists at the plane in the sky.  In the last frame, up in the cockpit, the soldiers were having a conversation along the lines of "So, how 'bout those Mets?"

 

Never forgot it.

[Brian Cronin]

Did she know about that before taking him fishing?  (Trying to remember.)  Or was the fishing trip a legitimate family pleasure, and the info about the meds-smuggler surfaced during the course of the trip?

She learned that the terrorist was getting specialized drugs that would be difficult to get before the trip and then on the trip, she casually asked how doctors get specialized drugs. So she was definitely intentionally using the relaxed environment to get info from her brother. But it is true that the trip originally wasn't meant as a quasi-interrogation, it just changed when she realized she could get some key info out of her brother.

[shapeshifter]

She learned that the terrorist was getting specialized drugs that would be difficult to get before the trip and then on the trip, she casually asked how doctors get specialized drugs. So she was definitely intentionally using the relaxed environment to get info from her brother. But it is true that the trip originally wasn't meant as a quasi-interrogation, it just changed when she realized she could get some key info out of her brother.

Yes, and didn't Dr. Prof. Spy-Daddy Ninja Pilot Arm Candy initially propose the fishing trip for the purpose of sibling bonding?

[roomtorome]

Seeing Carradine act was the best thing for me about the episode - he's been so passive (not actor's doing, the director/writer just wasn't taking advantage of the talent they have in him) - and, I agreed with everything he said in that animated moment.

 

I hope we get more good scenes with him - I'd rather more him than TD (sorry, I'm just not a fan of TD - he bores me in everything I've ever seen him in) - 

 

Didn't care for having her brother there as a way to present both sides of the discussion on what is as complex as it gets - I was worried they were going to bomb the "hospital" where he worked as that would have been horrible for them to incorporate the horror that happened to the Doctors without Borders which we bombed.

 

I thought the mom was really poignant about her son the terrorist.  I've thought about the parents of these monsters and just cannot imagine how one copes with knowing they are your children.  Cannot even imagine.  But, she was really good in the moments she watched the video and her expression reflected her recognition and horror at what she was viewing.  Ugh.  Too much pain.

[Kromm]

I hope we get more good scenes with him - I'd rather more him than TD (sorry, I'm just not a fan of TD - he bores me in everything I've ever seen him in)

Gasp!  You don't love every last thing Captain Dr. Flyboy Spyboy Show-Pony Prof. McPerfect does?  REALLY?

[SparklesBitch]

Gasp!  You don't love every last thing Captain Dr. Flyboy Spyboy Show-Pony Prof. McPerfect does?  REALLY?

 

Hee! I love how his nickname keeps getting longer and more ridiculous after every episode!

 

I liked this one. I really felt awful for the mom of the kid who became the terrorist. The scene where Elizabeth is watching her watch the video and she hears his voice and she just knows and her face falls....damn, show. Punched me in the gut, and I'm not even a mom. That being said, I surprised myself in that I was wholeheartedly on the president's side as far as taking the kid out. I'm usually firmly in Elizabeth's corner for other options if they have them, but in this case, no....dude needed to killed.

 

As for Elizabeth's brother, I liked that they came off as believable siblings, and that they squabbled about their different points of view over dinner, because who among us with siblings hasn't done that? I smiled at Allison's comment "is this how we sound when we fight?" and Henry's comment about fly fishing moving something in their WASPy souls cracked me up. I say this a lot, but I'll say it again, I love Henry and Elizabeth's marriage so crazy much.

 

Also, I absolutely loved Elizabeth getting information out of her brother...there was something incredibly entertaining about watching her be so deliberately manipulative. i think that both of them have good points when it comes to their respective sides about how best to "save the world", but he was just so snarky and lofty about it, I was glad to see him get played by his own sister.

 

But he's a horrible human being and an asshole. He won't come home to see his daughter? And he justifies it because "that's the deal"? Nope. You've lost me.

 

Agreed. Yeah, digging shrapnel out of other people's kids doesn't give you a pass for refusing to go home to see your own kid. That's so NOT a thing you can make that kind of a deal about.

 

While I could see poor Ivan's drastic choice a mile away, I loved that Henry isn't *quite the master he fancies himself.

 

Oh, poor Ivan broke my heart! Also yes, Henry continues to suck at this stuff....pretty spectacularly. I'm still a little annoyed that it seems to be his only flaw, but I'll go with it for now.

 

When President Carradine flew into a rage, I said to my TV: Finally! We get to see him act.

 

That was one of my favorite parts!

 

And before I forget, Russell was back. Yay!!

Edited November 10, 2015 by SparklesBitch

[leighdear]

Margaret Colin broke my heart when she was watching that video of her son, the Isis commander.  Her recognition of him was almost imperceptible, then the trembling of the lips and you SEE her entire world crumbling, all without her uttering a single word.  

[Kromm]

Hee! I love how his nickname keeps getting longer and more ridiculous after every episode!

Much like the character himself does.

[missbonnie]

I just extended the end time of this recording for 2 and half hours.

Yepper, mine's set to run 60 minutes over and that seems to suffice. On the topic of Henry, I'd marry that man in a heartbeat myself.

Edited November 11, 2015 by missbonnie

[SparedTurkey]

 

Agreed. Yeah, digging shrapnel out of other people's kids doesn't give you a pass for refusing to go home to see your own kid. That's so NOT a thing you can make that kind of a deal about.

Well - to be fair - if he was up front about how he didn't want kids I think that makes him less of a deadbeat dad. And I don't think he would have been backwards in coming forward. Perhaps the wife should have gone and had a baby with someone that wanted to have kids. Otherwise - she knew what she was getting.

 

I swear last year this show would have had Ivan living out his new life in the USA as a proudly gay man. I like that this time it didn't end up such a fairytale. It couldn't have. There was too many issues there.

 

Also, I'm with those who doesn't think Elizabeth took her brother fly-fishing just to get info from her brother. I think it was a legitimate trying to repair damages thing but she couldn't let go what she learnt talking to him.

 

Also - loved her secret service's WTF look when they put their fishing lines in the car. I'd like an episode from their point of view. I reckon they would be gold.

 

I also liked that the ep had nothing with the two co-worker relationship crap. Made the show much much better.

 

Also - shouldn't Ostrov be Ostrovna? Don't Russian women have a feminine ending to their last names?

[Kromm]

Also - shouldn't Ostrov be Ostrovna? Don't Russian women have a feminine ending to their last names?

She's married (well... was). it's her husband's name, not her father's name. I think that could be the difference.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Kromm

[CooperTV]

Also - shouldn't Ostrov be Ostrovna? Don't Russian women have a feminine ending to their last names?

 

She should be Ostrova. "Ova" is a feminine ending to the last name "Ostrov". Suffix "vn" and the ending "a" are used in  Russian patronymics. Like Anna Arkadyevna (patronymic, daughter of Arkadiy)) Karenina (female form of the last name "Karenin"), and her maiden name was "Oblonskaya" (while her brother's last name is "Oblonsky").

 

She's married (well... was). it's her husband's name, not her father's name. I think that could be the difference.

 

There's no difference. If her husband is Ostrov, she should be Ostrova.

 

ETA: Oh, welll, "Ostrov" could also mean the word "ostrov" ("an island" in Russian). Coincidentally, "ostrov" the noun and "Ostrov" the last name don't have a cognate root. And "ostrov" the noun doesn't have male or female ending when it's used as a last name.

Edited November 10, 2015 by CooperTV

[CooperTV]

I fast-forwarded every single scene of Henry The Gary Stu Super Terrible Spy Handler, and that's why this episode was amazing.

 

It had nuance, it had hard ethical decisions. It was everything I liked last season, basically: the determined Elisabeth, the strong POTUS, and everyone's working in sinc. The story had stakes. They showed us another side of living with the ISIS terrorist attacks through Will and his perspective. He was wonderfully flawed and complex character. They showed us the mother of the terrorist, and everything about this heart-wrenching and awful. The actress did a great job here.

 

I'm so glad the Scrappy NSA Guy was missing, and I was so glad to see Russel again! He elevates the every scene by his presence.

[kwnyc]

Totally agree with CooperTV's post above. It's why this show is a must-see and Good Wife...still has its moments. It's just really well done drama. I don't even mind Henry's shenanigans, because one of the things I enjoy most about this forum is people giving him new titles & nicknames.

 

Captain Professor Dr. Arm Candy, USMC-Ret 4eva!

[secnarf]

 

Also - shouldn't Ostrov be Ostrovna? Don't Russian women have a feminine ending to their last names?

If you listen to any of the Russian characters speaking in Russian, they say "Ostrova". I don't know why the American characters don't do the same.

[CooperTV]

If you listen to any of the Russian characters speaking in Russian, they say "Ostrova". I don't know why the American characters don't do the same.

 

To be fair, their Russian is pretty incomprehensible.

[pennben]

But it is true that the trip originally wasn't meant as a quasi-interrogation, it just changed when she realized she could get some key info out of her brother.

 

Okay, this probably says more about my family relationships than anything else, but that fishing trip WAS meant to be a quasi-interrogation. By which I mean she wanted to know why the hell her brother wasn't spending time with his child and was going to drill down on that,  until he said something that caused an entirely different quasi-interrogation!

Edited November 11, 2015 by pennben

[stephalex76]

If you listen to any of the Russian characters speaking in Russian, they say "Ostrova". I don't know why the American characters don't do the same.

I heard the "Ostrova" in Russian too and wondered the same thing. But as I recall it was always 'Raisa Gorbachev' in English, so maybe...

[sinkwriter]

 

I know... we can call him "Marty McFlyfishing" instead.

 

BAH HAHAHAHAHAA!  Nice.

 

On a side note, I love when shows have little details - they're so minute, but they really add something to a scene. For example, I totally cracked up when Elizabeth and her brother were taking off their gear and they put their poles in the car... only for the camera to show the agents up in the front seat turning to look back because they accidentally got poked by the extra-long poles feeding through to the front seat. LOL. That female agent turned her head to look at them, like, "Um, excuse me, watch where you're sticking that thing!" 

 

 

I'm usually firmly in Elizabeth's corner for other options if they have them, but in this case, no....dude needed to killed.

 

I struggled with that one. My immediate gut reaction was, take the dude out - he cut off someone's HEAD. That is unimaginably, unspeakably brutal.

 

But I get what Elizabeth was saying. I mean, you kill that guy and the courier, okay, but what good does it do? You're essentially cutting off one head on the snake and another one will grow back in its place. The "good" that comes from it is you've stopped one zealous guy who needed to be stopped. But if they could have captured him and gotten info from him, maybe they could have done more than just rid the world of one vicious guy. Maybe they could have gotten info that would make a bigger dent in taking down such a horrible "organization."

 

Then again, it's probably next to impossible to get info from a guy like that, so... I came back around to "take the dude out." 

 

Either way, the choice is not an easy one, but I thought they did a good job with it. And Margaret Colin was amazing in that scene where she watched the video. *shudders*

[shapeshifter]

My immediate gut reaction was, take the dude out - he cut off someone's HEAD. That is unimaginably, unspeakably brutal.

 

But I get what Elizabeth was saying. I mean, you kill that guy and the courier, okay, but what good does it do? You're essentially cutting off one head on the snake and another one will grow back in its place. The "good" that comes from it is you've stopped one zealous guy who needed to be stopped. But if they could have captured him and gotten info from him, maybe they could have done more than just rid the world of one vicious guy. Maybe they could have gotten info that would make a bigger dent in taking down such a horrible "organization."

I was hoping they could take him alive and use his illness as negative PR--that ISIS had taken advantage of someone whose thinking was clouded by neurological illness. But depending upon what the illness is (I don't recall) such a plot resolution could prejudice viewers towards individuals IRL with the disease.

[Xantar]

I was hoping they could take him alive and use his illness as negative PR--that ISIS had taken advantage of someone whose thinking was clouded by neurological illness. But depending upon what the illness is (I don't recall) such a plot resolution could prejudice viewers towards individuals IRL with the disease.

 

It was Huntington's. Pretty terrible disease because it's a guaranteed death sentence.

[shapeshifter]

It was Huntington's. Pretty terrible disease because it's a guaranteed death sentence.

Now I remember also thinking that killing him with a drone strike spared him a lot of suffering from his illness.

[mbutterfly]

BAH HAHAHAHAHAA!  Nice.

 

On a side note, I love when shows have little details - they're so minute, but they really add something to a scene. For example, I totally cracked up when Elizabeth and her brother were taking off their gear and they put their poles in the car... only for the camera to show the agents up in the front seat turning to look back because they accidentally got poked by the extra-long poles feeding through to the front seat. LOL. That female agent turned her head to look at them, like, "Um, excuse me, watch where you're sticking that thing!" 

 

 

I struggled with that one. My immediate gut reaction was, take the dude out - he cut off someone's HEAD. That is unimaginably, unspeakably brutal.

 

But I get what Elizabeth was saying. I mean, you kill that guy and the courier, okay, but what good does it do? You're essentially cutting off one head on the snake and another one will grow back in its place. The "good" that comes from it is you've stopped one zealous guy who needed to be stopped. But if they could have captured him and gotten info from him, maybe they could have done more than just rid the world of one vicious guy. Maybe they could have gotten info that would make a bigger dent in taking down such a horrible "organization."

 

Then again, it's probably next to impossible to get info from a guy like that, so... I came back around to "take the dude out." 

 

Either way, the choice is not an easy one, but I thought they did a good job with it. And Margaret Colin was amazing in that scene where she watched the video. *shudders*

I have always loved to watch Margaret Colin. I wish she guested on all the shows I watch because she can surely create a character. 

[Calamity Jane]

I have always loved to watch Margaret Colin. I wish she guested on all the shows I watch because she can surely create a character. 

For some reason, I always get Margaret Colin and Elizabeth Perkins a little mixed up - both tall brunettes with commanding presence, although I like Margaret Colin better.  She was absolutely heartbreaking in the part, and her performance brought such a depth and layering of emotion to the story.