S05.E06: The Bear And The Bow

[Camera One]

How was Merida a "secret weapon"?  Did Emma watch "Brave" in NYC and somehow came to the conclusion that Merida can turn random cowards into heroes even though that was not what the movie was about (It was about a mother-daughter relationship and yeah, no way these writers will touch that with a ten-foot pole)?

 

And at the end of the day, Merida played zero part in turning Rumple into a "hero" (I'm using the term extremely loosely).  Couldn't Emma have terrorized Belle herself? What was the point of turning Merida into a bear again?  So if throwing the bag of dust into the bear's mouth didn't work, would Dark Emma have frozen Rumple just before he tried to die for Belle?  Because facing the bear to distract from Belle already made him a "hero", no?  Rumple said Dark Emma let him escape in the first place.  Did Dark Emma know Belle's pep talks are golden and would do the trick?  I seriously have no idea what Dark Emma's original plan was.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I think Emma knew that if Belle didn't do the trick, nothing would. Rumpel would be useless to her at that point, so who cares what happens to him? 

[dr pepper]

I agree with all your points good and bad.

When Merlin said that only Nimue could help them, I just groaned.  NO, you don't need a stranger (no matter how story book famous) to save you and never have.  You have the freakin' Evil Queen, (conveniently powerful and inconveniently powerless) Blue Fairy, and the centuries of knowledge and manipulative genius of (new minted "hero") Rumplestiltskin.  When he was powerless in the real world, he was still able to corral 3 evil queens. Not to mention, he was the Dark One for centuries so is uniquely qualified to help.

Please just look inside yourselves and stop stupidly running around, chasing after somebody else to solve your problems.

 

Are you trying to get the writers to be heroes?

[Dianthus]

jaytee1812, on 03 Nov 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

Some of us liked the break from the main group. I sure didn't miss Hook whining over Emma, or Snowing looking pensive and doing nothing.

I like Belle and Merida together, it made a refreshing change.

And I don't wish to suggest that the showrunners and writers know better than posters on an Internet forum, but maybe this will fit in with the bigger plot in the long run.

Now, now, we're all supposed to respect other opinions here (so I've been told). You liked this episode, others (myself included) didn't. We just see things differently.

[dr pepper]

Didn't Rumple have some magic with him that would have prevented the Tree-ing? I of course fast-forwarded through all their scene, but I seem to have caught that. That's what the Magic Powder was originally supposed to do.

 

Yes, the powder counteracted transformation magic. Rumpel's plan was to sprinkle it on himslef and Belle so they could cross the town line without being turned into trees. So when he was attacked by MeridaBear, he threw it at her instead, so she changed back.

[KingOfHearts]

Yes, the powder counteracted transformation magic. Rumpel's plan was to sprinkle it on himslef and Belle so they could cross the town line without being turned into trees. So when he was attacked by MeridaBear, he threw it at her instead, so she changed back.

Which begs the question... how did crafty Rumple NOT know it would work?

[Arnella]

 

Which begs the question... how did crafty Rumple NOT know it would work?

Exactly!  He may be magicless himself now but he has a huge collection of magical items and centuries of knowledge and an innate craftiness to use them.  

[Camera One]

Which begs the question... how did crafty Rumple NOT know it would work?

 

They were playing it both ways.  It's pre-Dark Rumple with no confidence, yet he had memories of all his knowledge of magic and all those objects. Fine, he might not have courage to fight physically, but he knows more magic and has more magical weapons than everyone.  His confidence of that should at least be intact, once he was back in his element (in his Shop).  Merida was passed out.  Where were all the deus-ex-machinas hiding in the Shop?  And then Rumple and Belle went directly to Dark Emma at the end of the episode.  What happened to fighting and being a hero and thwarting Dark Swan's "evil" plans?  No, let's walk right in and give her exactly what she wanted.  For the cause of getting Merida's heart back. Which is so important in the big picture.  

[Rumsy4]

They were playing it both ways. It's pre-Dark Rumple with no confidence, yet he had memories of all his knowledge of magic and all those objects.

Spot on! They wanted to show that Rumple had found his courage when he needed to defend Belle. And apparently for that narrative to work, he couldn't have known that the transformation powder would have worked on Bearida. Gimme a break...

[Mitch]

Good God!!! Everyone said it already but this was the dullest episode I can remember since "Grumpy" I mean, show, Belle.Merida and for me at least Rumpel as the main characters???Get rid of the "centrics," and just start writing for the ensemble each and every week!

 

I don't even remember most of what happened as I lost interest and just wandered over to the kitchen to help make dinner and talk, and this time not even to make fun of the show..(though it is funny, my neighbor was over to get ready to watch Walking Dead and he has absorbed this show somehow by hanging out..."So that skinny guy is not powerful anymore???" )

 

Please show, no more Belle and Merida get this story moving along. And can Emma has to be the lamest Dark One ever. Its like the show doesnt want her to do anything too bad so she can back to being a "heroes."  And for the last time...Give your characters a brain and quit blathering on about "heros," and "villains."

Edited November 5, 2015 by Mitch

[YaddaYadda]

I'm still not sure why anyone would trust Arthur after he lied to them about the dagger. 

[KingOfHearts]

I actually thought this episode was less boring than 5x05. It had some decent action scenes. As much as I hate Merida and Rumpbelle, it was nice to see some old fashioned adventuring. That being said, it's the lesser of the two evils for me.

Brave was so cheapened. Besides the endless perfect arrow shots, Merida drinking the fate potion was OOC. Despite her desperation, she learned from the movie of the disasterous consequences. Did the show totally drop the fact it eventually takes away your mind? Such pivotal plot points in the film were treated so mundanely here.

[twoods]

I can watch Hook and Charming kick ass, along with Merlin doing his magic, all day. Hot damn. Why was the episode not about them being bad ass? I also liked how Belle helped out- she is really growing on me.

Next week looks like a non filler episode. Yay for sweeps!

[InsertWordHere]

Spot on! They wanted to show that Rumple had found his courage when he needed to defend Belle. And apparently for that narrative to work, he couldn't have known that the transformation powder would have worked on Bearida. Gimme a break...

Don't forget, if Rumple wants to be a hero on this show, he'll have to lose some of his intellect. 

[KAOS Agent]

I was really, really hoping that after last season's constant harping on heroes and villains and how those terms are silly that we'd be done with the characters continually being insufferable about who fits where on the Scale of Villainy. Sadly, the use of the term "hero" has been ramping up steadily this season with this episode reaching the highest tally thus far. 10 mentions of heroes in this episode for a total of 29 this season. By this same point in the Heroes & Villains arc of 4B, hero was used 25 times, so this season is winning on that score too.

 

In terms of other themes, I am happy to report that neither the light nor the dark need fear because there was no "snuffing" of any sort used this episode. However, the Darkness made a major comeback this week with a total of 16 mentions giving it an even 50 on the season.

 

And finally in the battle of the Dark One v Saviour, the Dark One continues to crush winning 9-0 this week for a season long lead of 74-26.

Edited November 5, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Curio]

I'm so glad you're continuing to do your weekly tallies, KAOS Agent.

[AudienceofOne]

The blank mind, brain-off state I need to watch this show these days was seriously disrupted when Belle had the gall to say that Emma had "embraced the darkness". Are these people fucking kidding me? This is the character that's been a Rumple cheerleader for years and he really did choose the darkness. Haven't we spent this entire season establishing that Emma literally had no choice once the darkness invaded her? They even went to great trouble to say that any use of magic by her, even for a positive outcome, was dark magic by definition.

 

This show has serious conceptual issues with free will, good/evil, and the appalling "heroism" and "bravery" stuff this season is supposedly about.

 

I haven't seenthe movie 'Brave' but somehow I think there's more to it than people randomly dropping the word 'Brave' into every conversation for no reason.

[Helena Dax]

I'm  starting to  think the  main point of OUAT now is to see how many Disney characters they're able to  introduce on the show. Maybe I  would have like  this episode better if I had some sympathy for Rumple/Belle, but I don't. I want to see Emma, Hook, Regina (when she isn't with Robin) and the Charmings. I'd like some day-to-day drama sometimes, instead of a neverending string of confusing adventures. 

 

I don't dislike Merida, it's just her role could have been played by any other character we already  knew.  Introducing new characters is fine when you don't want things to get boring, but I feel we haven't had the chance  to get tired of the old characters. 

 

Also, Mary Margaret's clothes are awful. 

 

Things I liked: the scene  with  Zelena, Emma, Hook saying she isn't like Rumple.

 

 

[Dianthus]

Even if the earlier splitting arrows bit was meant to set us up for the scene where Merida takes out three arrows with one of hers (yeah, right), there's a big difference between hitting an arrow that's already embedded in a target end on and hitting three arrows mid-flight edge on. The Mythbuster guys would laugh themselves sick over it.

[tennisgurl]

I have two big problems with Merida and the Brave stuff. 

 

1. It seems completely out of place. One of the reasons I liked the Frozen stuff last year was that, while it was basically a Frozen sequel, it did tie into the plot, and it made sense that it would be a focus, and that its characters would be around. They actually had relevance in the show at large. As of now, Merida is just a weird little subplot, a role that could be played by anymore, in the rare times she shows up in the plot. We already have a million plots going on (flashbacks, Camelot, Merlin, Dark Swan, Rumple, the couples), we don't need another one. 

 

2. The writers either did not see, or did not particularly care about the movie Brave. I actually liked Brave. Its not perfect, but I liked the lesson behind it, and I liked the setting and characters. But this version? For one thing, they completely undid the happy ending of the movie (Merida happy with her family, her and her mom having learned to understand each other, all the clans coming together in peace), which kind of sucks, in my opinion. All those lessons, all of that stuff about cooperation and learning to understand each other? Guess thats all down the drain now. Plus, Merida was way more likable in the movie. Which is probably because of the whole undoing of the happy ending thing I previously mentioned. Granted, taking cannon and darkening it is kind of Onces MO, but I have to say, I hope to hell it stays away from the franchises I actually care about. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Camera One]

Why did we have this episode?  Sometime this July, A or E said, "Wouldn't it be neat if we saw Merida turning into a Bear?"

Edited November 5, 2015 by Camera One

[Delphi]

I don't mind the Brave stuff, but I wasn't the biggest fan of Brave. Meanwhile I'm a huge fan of Tangled. Have all sorts of age inappropriate things for Tangled, do I need a Pascal plush guarding my desk, no, but I digress. I'm so numb to them screwing up things after the Tower that I'm just looking at Merida like, "They got the dress right, good for them. "

Edited November 5, 2015 by Delphi

[Zuleikha]

One of the reasons I liked the Frozen stuff last year was that, while it was basically a Frozen sequel, it did tie into the plot, and it made sense that it would be a focus, and that its characters would be around. They actually had relevance in the show at large. As of now, Merida is just a weird little subplot, a role that could be played by anymore, in the rare times she shows up in the plot.

Yeah, Merida's inclusion is really random. Given the large cast and Camelot, it was such a strange choice. She was okay in the initial Dark Swan episode, but I think she should have been a one-off character for that episode.

 

IMHO, all of the Belle/Rumple bravery stuff would have been better off either with Emma threatening Belle directly or with another character who we already know being used. Pretty much anyone could have worked... Lily, Maleficent, Pinocchio, Grumpy, Blue... whatever character's actor was available for the shooting window. Heck, if the show wanted to get really dark, Charming or Snow or both (since they share a heart) would have been very powerful and appropriate.

[KAOS Agent]

The problem with using a non-throwaway character to chase Gold & Belle is that Emma needed him to defeat the person trying to kill Belle (although I don't think killing them was ever the intent and Emma would have stopped it before it came to dealing the death blow). Emma following them would have been ridiculous because she's overpowered magically. The same goes for any magical person. You run into a different problem with using anyone Emma cares about because Gold stopping them may result in them being injured or dead. Grumpy or August would work except they aren't particularly menacing. They don't have any real skill with weapons and aren't people you'd run from in fear for your life. However, what about using Guinevere? Or Arthur? That would keep things in Camelot and give Emma more interaction with the Camelot crew. Why the hell are they in Storybrooke? Emma doesn't seem to care a bit about them.

[Zuleikha]

Emma following them would have been ridiculous because she's overpowered magically. The same goes for any magical person. You run into a different problem with using anyone Emma cares about because Gold stopping them may result in them being injured or dead.

IMHO, Emma's overpowered magic isn't a problem because she wasn't trying to kill Belle. She was trying to make Gold do a heroic act. She could have conjured up a bear or a wolf or anything as a threat just as easily as used Merida. Her magic actually gives the writers a lot of flexibility and options because they could have her conjure anything or use any spell as needed to tie into whatever the Camelot flashback was (which in this alternate reality of one-off Merida would be Camelot related and not Merida/Belle's adventure). 

 

Any other non-Emma character is just a writing choice. Merida could have ended up injured or dead, too. She didn't because that's not how the writers wrote the situation. Grumpy or Pinocchio may not start with weapons mastery (although Grumpy's got the wicked dwarf pickaxe), but Emma could either magically buff them or they could pick up a gun. 

 

IMHO, if the writers want Dark Swan to seem truly dark and manipulative, Snowing would have been best because that would have been emotionally powerful. But we don't know their long-term plan for Dark Swan yet, and it may be that wouldn't work with the long-term plan.

[kingshearte]

Conceptually, I don't mind Merida, largely because I'm a serious sucker for a Scottish accent, and I want her hair. I also think they've done a surprisingly good job of maintaining her impetuous, act-first-consequences-be-damned personality, but the problem with that, as someone else pointed out, is that it wipes out everything she learned in the movie. I thought she was kind of cool as a character in the movie precisely because she kind of was a little unlikable because of that impetuousness, but had enough redeeming characteristics that you add a little character growth, and she becomes sympathetic. Take away the growth, and it really loses a lot.

 

Plus, I do fully agree that she's not necessary, and aside from getting to listen to her accent, this episode was not particularly fulfilling. Also, is it just me, or are most of Belle's centrics not even really about her, but rather about her joining someone else on their own irrelevant-to-the-main-plot quests? And so disappointing that she didn't ultimately end up being her own hero. I feel like they keep bringing her up to the brink of being a legit, heroic, feminist badass, and then clawing her back into the simpering, Rumple-worshipping nitwit that we know and don't particularly love. It's a little maddening.

 

Not enough plot and not enough Captain Swan. The Scottish accent is not enough to make up for it.

[Shanna Marie]

I haven't seenthe movie 'Brave' but somehow I think there's more to it than people randomly dropping the word 'Brave' into every conversation for no reason.

The funny thing is, the movie Brave wasn't really even about being brave. Ironically, given Merida's role in this show, the movie was about seeing the people you love for who they are, not what you want them to be, appreciating them for who they are, and letting them be themselves rather than forcing them to fit into the molds you'd like to put them into. So, basically the opposite of this episode, which was all about forcing Rumple into being something he's not by Emma, who needs him to be that for her own purposes, and by Belle, who values bravery and heroism and seems to demand that in her husband, even though that's not really his thing.

[Camera One]

It's ironic since in "Frozen", they managed to distill and keep the same message, and naturally allowed Elsa to take the next logical emotional steps, following the events of that movie.  Whereas this episode showed they are not capable of doing that with "Brave".  Though as someone else said, at least this was already more effort than they put into "Tangled".  Remember when Rapunzel had doubts about being Queen?  Too bad Charming is not as good a cheerleader as Belle.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I think the deeper they go into the Disney vault, the harder they have to try to make a character work. The big Disney revival was in the late 80s/early 90s which gives you 25 years of people having had the opportunity to know and see the movies. Ariel, Belle & Jasmine are still all over the Disney products. People are invested in those beloved characters of their childhood. Merida does not have that benefit. Brave came out a few years ago. It doesn't have that long term built up audience that the other characters have. This meant that the writers needed to give her a story that made me care for her. I needed to understand who she is, why I should cheer for her and make me like her. This episode was supposed to do that. It failed. 

[Dianthus]

If you haven't seen Brave, I can't imagine this ep would make you want to change that. Merida mostly just looked like an angry and dangerously impetuous idiot/hot-head. Merlin promises her assistance. She's part of a group that includes three armed warriors (one a current Knight of the Round Table) and said powerful sorcerer. Instead, she brains Belle (who's basically a girl with a book) with a rock and kidnaps her. Belle, who's inured to helping someone who's abusive towards her, helps her. Hypothetically speaking, imagine if a man (not-Rumple) had done that to her. We'd be hearing howls of outrage. 'Believe in yourself' can be a powerful and positive message, but not here.

[Rumsy4]

This episode epitomizes the kind of inta-bravery OUAT peddles. Face your fears, which means--be reckless in ONCE parlance. Remember how Anna "changed" Charming and made him brave with one sword-fight lesson? 

 

What kind of idiocy it is to face a clan of warriors armed with a single bow? Apparently it's more important to "face your fears" than to have common sense. If Merida had not been conveniently standing at right-angles to the three MacGuffins, she could not have saved her brothers with her physics-defying arrow-shot. And luckily for Belle, Merida, and her brothers, that won the instant respect of all those men and proved Merida's capability to be a Queen. Why? I don't know.

 

The same thing happened in Storybrooke. Okay, so Belle does not want to leave town with Rumple. Instead of trying to at least hide from Merida, she nonchalantly struts down the road. Because you know, being BRAVE means you don't think about risks. Also, one act of courage apparently made Rumple confident, and turned him into a special hero who could defeat Dark Swan. IDEK.

[Sarcastica]

The start of the episode with Killian, Merlin, Charming and Belle was awesome. Then it went downhill and the rest was zzzzzzzzzzz. I'm still rolling my eyes.  

[YaddaYadda]

If you haven't seen Brave, I can't imagine this ep would make you want to change that.

 

I've seen the movie, and I actually enjoyed it. I liked the spirited princess who was kicking ass, and taking names.

 

But Once has made me really despise her. They also managed to that with Robin, so that's nothing new under the sun.

[Shanna Marie]

One of the really annoying things about them messing with Brave is that not only are they undoing all the development that Merida went through in the movie, they're doing it about ten years later. So current Merida, who must be in her mid-late twenties, is at the same maturity level as movie Merida was at the beginning, when she was a willful teenager who hadn't yet learned a valuable lesson. Actually, she may be even worse. Movie Merida wasn't just a generic "angry Scot." She had a temper and was stubborn, but she was basically nice. She was just frustrated by her lot in life and her mother's inability to accept her as she was -- and like most teenagers, she had a blind spot about being able to really see her mother's perspective. TV Merida doesn't seem to have learned anything and is doing things the way she did at the beginning of the movie, when she was impulsive and immature. There's nothing in TV Merida that makes me think she should be allowed to be a queen. Shooting arrows out of the air doesn't make you a queen (then again, pulling a sword from the stone also doesn't seem to have much going for it in choosing a king).

[Camera One]

She's way worse.  Movie Merida doesn't treat random people like crap.  I don't remember her saying stuff like "Hit first, ask questions later".  Do the writers think that's sassy or something?  Kidnapping an innocent person to save your brothers' lives wasn't presented as a moral quandary.  It turned into Belle going rah rah rah you can do it goooooooooooooooo kidnapper!  

[Mari]

I don't remember her saying stuff like "Hit first, ask questions later".  Do the writers think that's sassy or something?  

Considering some of the sassy lines they have Regina say to her victims?  Probably.  I'm not sure they have a firm grasp on the difference between sassy and cruel.

[Mathius]

Kidnapping an innocent person to save your brothers' lives wasn't presented as a moral quandary.  It turned into Belle going rah rah rah you can do it goooooooooooooooo kidnapper!  

 

It's Belle, though.  She fell in love with someone who kept her in a dungeon cell and forced her to do slave labor for him. Forgiving/befriending Merida so quickly isn't a stretch.  It's both an admirable and facepalm-worthy quality of her's. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by Mathius

[DigitalCount]

Suddenly I understand why I thought Belle and Merida had something going on. In fairness, that's Belle and every female character she's paired with. Anyone else remember the Red Beauty ship? If they're going to pair Mulan with anyone, it should be Belle, lol.

[Randomosity]

... as the owner of hair like that, it's bugging me that Merida is running around in the woods, fighting, shooting, etc. with it loose like that. It wasn't so bad in the movie because it was a cartoon, but on a real person, all I can think of is what a mess that would really be. The wind would be whipping it around into her face, so she'd get hair in her mouth and in her eyes (and it really hurts when hair manages to get up under your eyelid), and the more it gets blown around, the bigger and wilder it gets. Plus, that kind of hair is like Velcro. She'd have leaves, twigs, random bits of forest debris, and even small animals caught up in it. ... I'd look like a terrifying wild creature from the forest. My hair may not stay nicely in a braid, but it would have to at least start that way for me to do the kind of stuff Merida's been doing, or else there would be the standby of the ballerina bun.

 

Ditto. My hair is the same and is terrifying after sleeping in a bed, even when it was up in a bun for the night. Loose when curly for days on end in the woods? No. Just no. Hiking/athletic pursuits = french braid it when wet to keep it as contained as possible, then hope for the best if it has to be that way for more than a day.

 

And yeah, it's unsettling when Zelena's scene is the best part of the episode :\

[Camera One]

Why did Merida need to go running after Wisps to figure out who kidnapped her brothers?  She didn't suspect the other Clans? Wouldn't they be the first suspects?  And why didn't the Clans let Merida know they had her brothers, as a way to force her to abdicate the throne or whatever?  

 

Not to mention in the movies, the brothers were the cleverest characters.  As someone else above said, no way they would allow themselves to be captured and helpless. 

 

In the movie, her mother started to lose her memory as a Bear, so by the time Merida Bear got to the Clans, she could already have forgotten why she was even there.  Great plan.

 

Imagine if she had given Dark Emma the Wisps and in exchange gotten her to apparate to the Clans, defeat them all, save her brothers.  We could have gotten rid of Merida within the season premiere.  And Emma might not have realized using all that Dark magic, even if for good purposes, has a toll on her and that's when Mind Rumple shows up.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Camera One

[Mathius]

And yeah, it's unsettling when Zelena's scene is the best part of the episode :\

 

 

I particularly love that after she complemented Emma on her "next-level darkness", Emma asks if she has any room to judge after the stuff she's done and Zelena replied "No", clarifying that she wasn't judging Emma, just making an observation.  So Zelena actually understands that she doesn't have the right to judge anyone else's sins, but this concept still evades Regina.  Compare Zelena's treatment of Emma to Regina's at the end of last episode.  World of difference.

 

It is ridiculous how much more likable Zelena has become compared to her sister.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Mathius

[Dianthus]

Regina's like a reformed/born-again type who rails against "sin" a la (Diamond Dave) David Lee Roth. Sanctimonious blowhards and scolds.

[Zuleikha]

Regina constantly mentions how her heart is a lost cause and still struggles to see herself as anything more than a villain. When Regina judged Emma last episode, it was also with a put down on herself (paraphrased but it was something like "and when *I* have the higher ground, you know you've sunk very low").  

 

Zelena isn't not judging Dark Swan because Zelena's such a non-judgmental, understanding person. It's because Zelena doesn't give a sh*t about whether Emma hurts people or not. Zelena has occasional good lines, but she's also a completely unrepentant murderer whose primary motivation right now is figuring out a way to steal the baby away from Robin. Yeah, she's real likable! (although she did NOT kill Neal. That line bothered me so much because Neal knew Zelena was controlling Lumiere and that there would be a price to pay for resurrecting the Dark One... Neal made a stupid choice for poorly developed reasons. Neal's death is really on Neal).

[KingOfHearts]

 

It's like trying to tell the redemption of Darth Vader with an entire movie dedicated to the hijinx at Chewbacca's family reunion.

That actually happened. It's called the Star Wars Holiday Special. It was so bad that George Lucas disowned it and it only aired twice in its history. Talk about ditching your main characters for unlikable side ones.

 

 

Yeah, she's real likable! (although she did NOT kill Neal. That line bothered me so much because Neal knew Zelena was controlling Lumiere and that there would be a price to pay for resurrecting the Dark One... Neal made a stupid choice for poorly developed reasons. Neal's death is really on Neal).

I think it depends on how you define likable. As a person, she's still as revolting as ever. As a character, I find her entertaining despite her evil intentions because the show has fun with it. The line about Neal bothered me at first, but it would be Zelena to take credit for a murder she wasn't responsible for. When she said it, she founded very boastful as if she was just trying to needle Emma. However, every other character seems to accept the same fact and the writers have gone to great lengths to whitewash Neal. That is what bothers me.

Edited November 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

I think it depends on how you define likable. As a person, she's still as revolting as ever. As a character, I find her entertaining despite her evil intentions because the show has fun with it.

 

 

Exactly, that's what I meant.  She's a remorseless psychopath and a terrible person, but she is well aware of it and has fun with it.  It's the exact same reason Cruella was likable in the previous season, even though she was an even more horrifically evil psychopath than Zelena.  Heck, Regina as Mayor was likable this way in Season 1 too!  She knew she was an evil bitch and totally owned it, which really I miss given all the seasons of "woe is me!" we've had since.

 

Regina constantly mentions how her heart is a lost cause and still struggles to see herself as anything more than a villain.

 

No, Regina has not said that.  She's said she struggles with the notion that other people may never see her as anything more than a villain. Since Season 3 she has become at least aware that she genuinely was a villain (she inexplicably denied it back in Season 2 despite being pretty aware of it in Season 1, but I digress), but she doesn't have any continued self-loathing or feeling like she's still a villain, she's moved beyond that.  Her issue is always with others viewing her as a villain and not seeing how "she's changed", whether it be the population of Storybrooke or some nebulous Author.

 

Zelena has occasional good lines, but she's also a completely unrepentant murderer whose primary motivation right now is figuring out a way to steal the baby away from Robin.

 

As I said on the Zelena thread, this sum-up of her character is accurate and not my issue when it comes to Zelena vs. Regina.  My issue is that Regina is a completely unrepentant mass-murderer who as of now has succeeded in getting everything she wanted because she was generously offered chance after chance after chance to do good and she finally took it.  The double standard applied to Zelena makes no sense.  The heroes should either start offering Zelena the same chances to start rehabilitating herself by doing good or they should lock up Regina alongside her sister given that Regina hasn't served a single day in prison for her crimes that far outnumber Zelena's and far surpass them in scope.  Giving both different treatments will only make me side with the one who has the raw deal, which is Zelena, over the other one, especially when Regina makes it worse by kicking Zelena while she's down (stealing her voice, threatening her, forcing a green diet on her), and hypocritically denying Zelena the same chances that she received.  So that's my two cents.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Mathius

[YaddaYadda]

It's because Zelena doesn't give a sh*t about whether Emma hurts people or not. Zelena has occasional good lines, but she's also a completely unrepentant murderer whose primary motivation right now is figuring out a way to steal the baby away from Robin.

 

The unrepentant murderer part runs in the family though. Regina is also an unrepentant murderer who said she has no regrets for what she's done because it got her Henry. 

[babyPhat279]

I had to laugh at Zelena's claim that she doesn't mind being alone. Yeah, that's why you raped someone to get pregnant so you would, in your words, have "someone that loves me." This is so old-school Maury. Zelena has the maturity of a 14-year-old.

[Camera One]

When I first watched the episode, I believed that line, but yeah, you're kinda right.  She loved having Winged Monkeys around and got into a snit when she was rejected by the Useless Witches of the Other Round Table.

[nx74defiant]

Why does Belle need to help Rumple be a hero? She says she saw the good in him, well good does not mean hero. If The Dark One wants him to be a hero, than it should be avoided.

Why is a Hero need to pull out the sword? Originally the ability to pull out the sword meant you were the rightful ruler of Camelot. There is a difference between being the legitimate heir to the throne and being a hero. Why couldn't Guinevere be the only one who could remove the sword now?

I feel sorry for Merida's subjects, hit first, ask questions later, thinking anger = brave. They better keep their heads down.

[AudienceofOne]

When I first watched the episode, I believed that line, but yeah, you're kinda right.  She loved having Winged Monkeys around and got into a snit when she was rejected by the Useless Witches of the Other Round Table.

 

 

Her entire motivation was having a family that put her first. That's the exact opposite of being alone.