Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Chaser]

6 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

The problem with the Malcolm comparison is that, as much as Oliver (and Felicity and Diggle) hated him, he had connections to the team that helped explain why they were willing to work with him occasionally. He was Tommy and Thea's dad and that required Oliver to give at least a tiny damn about him. Oliver doesn't give a single fuck about BS. (I crack up every time I watch the shrug he gives when Quentin tells him that she's going to testify as a rebuttal witness.) I can't see that changing, even if something terrible happens to Quentin, because Oliver knows she's not Laurel and she doesn't have any real connection to Quentin. With no connection to Oliver or any member of the team and a bad history with all of them, it's impossible to buy that she'd become a member of the team, even moreso because her only power is wholly redundant of another member of the team. Great writers like David Simon and Aaron Sorkin couldn't make this work, much less the hack writers on this show.

I don’t think there is an accurate villain comparison to the BS situation. As you’ve said Malcom doesn’t work. People point Slade out but Slade had a previous relationship with Oliver and was literally drugged crazy. 

SA’s nope face in every scene with BS is hilarious. 

[Featherhat]

10 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

 

The problem with the Malcolm comparison is that, as much as Oliver (and Felicity and Diggle) hated him, he had connections to the team that helped explain why they were willing to work with him occasionally. He was Tommy and Thea's dad and that required Oliver to give at least a tiny damn about him

True, and it's not a perfect comparison but since she *is* coming back and it seems likely not as a complete villain I'd rather that than on TA.

12 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Oliver doesn't give a single fuck about BS. (I crack up every time I watch the shrug he gives when Quentin tells him that she's going to testify as a rebuttal witness.) I can't see that changing, even if something terrible happens to Quentin, because Oliver knows she's not Laurel and she doesn't have any real connection to Quentin. With no connection to Oliver or any member of the team and a bad history with all of them, it's impossible to buy that she'd become a member of the team, even moreso because her only power is wholly redundant of another member of the team. Great writers like David Simon and Aaron Sorkin couldn't make this work, much less the hack writers on this show.

I wonder if they might try to change this. Obviously Oliver doesn't give a damn about BS and SA still has nope face, but they might try to give them more scenes and more of a connection. Won't change the face or the anti chemistry though. But yeah, they aren't getting rid of Tinah and two "good" but with often abrasive attitudes screamers is too much, even if they're in separate storylines. 

[KenyaJ]

6 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I wonder if they might try to change this. Obviously Oliver doesn't give a damn about BS and SA still has nope face, but they might try to give them more scenes and more of a connection. 

I'm just curious to see how that would work. Oliver doesn't even have an emotional attachment to Curtis, Dinah or Rene after working with them for two seasons.

Edited May 6, 2018 by KenyaJ

[Primal Slayer]

45 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

BS turned against Diaz an episode or 2 earlier than I expected so part of me still, naively, hopes that she turns again in 623, once it looks like Diaz has been dealt with. I still don't buy her sudden conscience when we've seen her behave one way for the majority of the season so it would make more sense, IMO, if she stayed true to her true villain colors by looking out for her own interests. But then this show doesn't play well with logic at the best of times and it's more clear than ever that they have no idea what the hell they're doing with KC. If they had brains they'd play to her strengths which is playing a villain but they don't so...  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Her strength isn't necessarily playing a villain, it's playing someone with attitude and snark. If they dont have align herself with a new big bad, I could see them just moving her into the Catwoman role full time.

40 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I want a call back to the premiere. BS is true to her word and she kills Lance. 

Excepy why would she wait this long to off him when she had a 1000 chances and is protecting him from Diaz?

[jenrising]

I can just see the bunker briefings. BS and BC with identical scowls while Oliver stands as far away as possible. Rene notes, "This is awkward, Hoss."

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Her strength isn't necessarily playing a villain, it's playing someone with attitude and snark.

Cool, the show really needs another Rene!

[Primal Slayer]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

I haven't been around for a few days, so I'm a little confused about BS and BC working together in the finale. Has this been confirmed somewhere? Because Dinah turned on Oliver for not prioritizing Vince over the city but she's going to work with the woman who killed him? 

It'll likely be during a fight where Siren helps Canary out of bad situation. 

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

Cool, the show really needs another Rene!

They already gave us another Felicity with Curtis. Might as well give us a better version of Rene.

[insomniadreams88]

10 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Excepy why would she wait this long to off him when she had a 1000 chances and is protecting him from Diaz?

I do think that it’s not as likely as it was earlier in the season, but if they want it to happen, it will. They just need a reason that makes even the slightest sense in one person’s mind, like maybe Lance once again helps Dinah, even if BS isn’t involved at all. “You’re supposed to be my fake father (figure)!” “You called her Black Canary! That’s supposed to be me!” 

[Angel12d]

9 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Her strength isn't necessarily playing a villain, it's playing someone with attitude and snark. If they dont have align herself with a new big bad, I could see them just moving her into the Catwoman role full time.

If she can stick to that, fine, I guess? Meh. But I just feel like as soon as she gets a full redemption, if that's what they're doing, KC will just start trying to act like E1 Laurel again and yikes. Biggest mistake ever.

Honestly, BS doesn't have a place on the show if she's not a villain of some sort and the natural conclusion to her storyline would be to go back to E2. Anything else is forced. I just do not understand why we need two screeching metas, nor do I think there is place for both of them, especially if they'll be working on the same side.

[Chaser]

12 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Her strength isn't necessarily playing a villain, it's playing someone with attitude and snark. If they dont have align herself with a new big bad, I could see them just moving her into the Catwoman role full time.

Excepy why would she wait this long to off him when she had a 1000 chances and is protecting him from Diaz?

Cause she’s going to help take down Diaz than look at Lance and realize she just traded one daddy for another and she’s tried of it.

[Featherhat]

23 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

I'm just curious to see how that would work. Oliver doesn't even have an emotional attachment to Curtis, Dinah or Rene after working with them for two seasons.

I agree, and I'm not sure it's likely but they might want to try and shake the status quo of that up a bit with the new showrunner and especially now QL won't be there to give BS a storyline and I can see KC requesting it. Yeah Oliver also has zero emotional attachment to NopeTA, which is fine because they don't to him either. But then I was also surprised that BS had all of 2 scenes with Oliver (so far) this season (not complaining in the slightest mind you) so who knows.

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

They already gave us another Felicity with Curtis. Might as well give us a better version of Rene.

There is no “better” version of Rene. But making her a redundant version of two characters on the show sounds about Arrow. 

[negescu]

Oliver is going to be framed for Quentin's murder.

[Chaser]

10 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

If she can stick to that, fine, I guess? Meh. But I just feel like as soon as she gets a full redemption, if that's what they're doing, KC will just start trying to act like E1 Laurel again and yikes. Biggest mistake ever.

Lol I know what you mean by act like Laurel but I just had this image of 7x01:

Black Siren walks into the lair. Crosses arms. Says line. Powers down. Waits for line.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Chaser

[Mrs. de Winter]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

11 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

They already gave us another Felicity with Curtis. Might as well give us a better version of Rene.

There is no “better” version of Rene. But making her a redundant version of two characters on the show sounds about Arrow. 

Trying a second version of a popular character is one thing - and a thing that arguably failed - but a second version of a character that most don't care about (on a good day) seems excessively stupid.  But since it is Arrow and BS stupid is probably the way they will go. 

One day this show will accidentally not live up to my worst expectations. 

For me the only better Rene is a Rene who is no longer on the show - dead/alive - don't care - just make it go away.  And he can do his penance by taking Curtis with him.  

[Primal Slayer]

15 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

If she can stick to that, fine, I guess? Meh. But I just feel like as soon as she gets a full redemption, if that's what they're doing, KC will just start trying to act like E1 Laurel again and yikes. Biggest mistake ever.

If they took away Sirens snark and attitude then I wouldn't want her to have any sort of redemption but I dont think KC would try to act like E1 Laurel since she's said plenty of times that the snark and attitude is one of her favorite aspects of playing Black Siren.

[Chaser]

How do you guys think they will bring back Roy?

[Primal Slayer]

The only logical way I can see Roy returning is if he is tied to the big bad in some way. Someone he/Thea/Nyssa encountered on their travels that causes Roy to break off from the group and leads him back to Star City. 

I wonder what they will do costume wise for him. Hopefully they wont be lazy and just put him back in his original costume. Maybe spruce up his civilian one that he had this season and turn it in this

[catrox14]

57 minutes ago, jenrising said:

I can just see the bunker briefings. BS and BC with identical scowls while Oliver stands as far away as possible. Rene notes, "This is awkward, Hoss."

"This changes a lot, Hoss" 

I hope they just scream at each other and they both blow up.

[statsgirl]

..

11 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

No one knows of her night time activities unlike Oliver and Felicity's.

The audience knows.

It's in the nature of most people to want good people to be rewarded, bad people to be punished and the heroes to win.  Every fairy tale or hero's journey that I can think of ends with the good guys winning.

And I don't think Beth S wants to end the season with something so depressing as Oliver in jail unless there is a carrot that he will get out. She wants people to come back for the next season.

4 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I wonder if they’re going to have her team up with The Quadrant or something over the hiatus. Like if one of the last things we find out before the ep ends is that they promised her a seat if she can off Diaz because he’s too unpredictable or something.

I think they've spoiled much of the Black Siren this season by making her too much a handmaid to men but i would be on board for that.  She can stay wicked which is the most fun, but not too wicked.  And maybe she can team up with the woman in the maroon dress, who seems to be the most competent villain the show has had all season, and the Quadrant can be the Big Bad next year.

[bijoux]

47 minutes ago, Chaser said:

How do you guys think they will bring back Roy?

No clue, but at least I guess he will now somehow be able to go out in public when he does. Providing SC somehow manages to lose all that access weight in morally compromised schmucks over the summer.

[Velocity23]

With Oliver in prison Roy will be send to Star City by Thea to protect Felicity and William and help break out Oliver out of prison. 

[jay741982]

I wonder if we get Lady Shiva next season. Is she the one that was connected to Roy in Comics or was that Cheshire?

[negescu]

cheshire

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

..

The audience knows.

It's in the nature of most people to want good people to be rewarded, bad people to be punished and the heroes to win.  Every fairy tale or hero's journey that I can think of ends with the good guys winning.

And I don't think Beth S wants to end the season with something so depressing as Oliver in jail unless there is a carrot that he will get out. She wants people to come back for the next season.

I think they've spoiled much of the Black Siren this season by making her too much a handmaid to men but i would be on board for that.  She can stay wicked which is the most fun, but not too wicked.  And maybe she can team up with the woman in the maroon dress, who seems to be the most competent villain the show has had all season, and the Quadrant can be the Big Bad next year.

What the audience knows and what they know in show are different. We know that and WM/MG still ran this season so Beth will have to make up for how they end it which will most likely result in someone going to jail. But we know they will get out of jail so this isn't a lasting consequence .

[statsgirl]

I know MG and WM ran this season.  But Beth was looking for feedback before they finished shooting the last episode.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was some tweaking involved at the end.  Not much because there wouldn't be room for a lot. But some.

[JamieLynn832002]

11 hours ago, tv echo said:

Remember this papp 'spoiler'? ...

-- From papp blog: "This scene was interesting to me for a couple reasons, since I know in episode 22 Oliver 'makes a deal' with the Feds.... so why the big dramatics in ep 23?" (Apr. 28, 2018 canadagraphs blog post, page 17 of Spoilers thread and page 1767 of Spoiler Discussion thread)

I have a theory based in part on this spoiler. Oliver makes a deal to get Felicity and William in A.R.G.U.S. protective custody (no idea why he'd need a deal when it seemed like an arranged plan in 6 21 but...) and then Lyla loses control of A.R.G.U.S. to someone shady and suddenly they're actually in danger while Oliver can't help them due to being in prison/wherever he goes. Part of this is also based on the metas are illegal starting in 2021 future Zari comes from on LoT since I can't see any of that coming true while Lyla controls A.R.G.U.S.  

[way2interested]

15 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

and then Lyla loses control of A.R.G.U.S. to someone shady

Only problem with this is DR has said that Diggle's working with ARGUS going into s7, so I would guess his wife still works there too.

16 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

Oliver makes a deal to get Felicity and William in A.R.G.U.S. protective custody (no idea why he'd need a deal when it seemed like an arranged plan in 6 21 but...)

Yeah, since it was already a plan I think that's just a plan (plus foreshadowing/explanation for once it does happen in 623) and not necessarily the deal that would happen in 622. I'm more thinking that the deal would be more about the team/the Green Arrow (whom Watson was trying to take down) being allowed to roam around to try to take down the Quadrant for 623, while then Oliver gets taken in for something else.

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I know MG and WM ran this season.  But Beth was looking for feedback before they finished shooting the last episode.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was some tweaking involved at the end.  Not much because there wouldn't be room for a lot. But some.

Call me cynical but it occurred to me that they weren't looking so much at feedback as much as trying to boost engagement for Arrow official accounts. If Arrow truly were interested in feedback, this would be a much different show (yes, I'm bitter).

[JamieLynn832002]

14 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Only problem with this is DR has said that Diggle's working with ARGUS going into s7, so I would guess his wife still works there too.

I didn't know that. Yeah, I'm guessing Dig wouldn't continue working if Lyla was out.

[strikera0]

I think everyone already expected it, but this tweet should be final confirmation that all members of NTA will be back next year as well:

 

So, can we expect a Team Arrow made up of 8 members (Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Roy, Dinah, Curtis, Rene and Black Siren) next season? If that's what the writers have planned, I can already safely say that it'll be a trainwreck of epic proportions. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by strikera0

[calliope1975]

I'm beginning to not like Tonya.

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, strikera0 said:

So, can we expect a Team Arrow made up of 8 members (Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Roy, Dinah, Curtis, Rene and Black Siren) next season? If that's what the writers have planned, I can already safely say that it'll be a trainwreck of epic proportions. 

BS hadn't been confirmed to be on Team Arrow, that's just unconfirmed spec (personally I'm thinking she's going to end up like Malcolm). Plus, since they are apparently keeping Oliver and Diggle separated for a bit (and from DR's implication about the newbies and OTA), it doesn't look like there will be a "Team Arrow" of possibly 7 people for a while, which is probably what they are figuring against that exact problem. 

If the team of 7 is then not what they have planned, is it now not a trainwreck of epic proportions?

[Angel12d]

I expected all the newbies to be back so I'm not surprised at all, even though I believe this show needs a massive cast cull. I think the groups will be separated for a while and that's fine with me, as long as we don't see the newbies much. (Tonya should look at the very low amount of likes/RTs she got for that NTA tweet and maybe the Arrow writers room will finally get a clue.)

[strikera0]

Just now, way2interested said:

BS hadn't been confirmed to be on Team Arrow, that's just unconfirmed spec (personally I'm thinking she's going to end up like Malcolm). Plus, since they are apparently keeping Oliver and Diggle separated for a bit (and from DR's implication about the newbies and OTA), it doesn't look like there will be a "Team Arrow" of possibly 7 people for a while, which is probably what they are figuring against that exact problem. 

If the team of 7 is then not what they have planned, is it now not a trainwreck of epic proportions?

But what's the point of keeping Dinah, Black Siren, Rene and Curtis on the show - and most likely as full-time regulars - if they don't have any connection to the main character Oliver - not even as team-mates? That's completely idiotic and a waste of everyone's prescious time.  

[Angel12d]

7 minutes ago, strikera0 said:

But what's the point of keeping Dinah, Black Siren, Rene and Curtis on the show - and most likely as full-time regulars - if they don't have any connection to the main character Oliver - not even as team-mates? That's completely idiotic and a waste of everyone's prescious time.  

I think they're trying to make BC the leader of her own team? At least, I'm assuming. But this is the trouble with the show trying to make BC as important as Oliver/GA...because Dinah has no connection to Oliver whatsoever and she'll never be more important than Felicity and Diggle. And to an extent the same goes to LL. By the time she became BC, both Felicity and Diggle were integral members of his team and emotionally connected to Oliver in a way LL never could be. And BS is from a whole other earth so...yeah. Dumb.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Angel12d

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, strikera0 said:

But what's the point of keeping Dinah, Black Siren, Rene and Curtis on the show - and most likely as full-time regulars - if they don't have any connection to the main character Oliver - not even as team-mates? That's completely idiotic and a waste of everyone's prescious time.  

Literally only to give SA, EBR, and DR more time off while still giving them more money and to give DC more IP to sell is the point. Never said it was a good reason, but it's not as if the writers are automatically jumping down to the worst ideas that they can pick (that haven't even been proven to be happening).

Edited May 7, 2018 by way2interested

[Primal Slayer]

They gonna turn this into their version of Justice League unlimited? lol. 

But I suspect that NTA will still be on their own but cordial with TA. If Siren isn't working for the big bad, then she'll probably do some solo work that ends up running into NTA or joining TA. Diggle will still be a one man team on Argus unless they bring in Siren. 

And of course they will probably kill Rene or Curtis off sometime by the end of the season. 

I think just for budget reasons they will probably harken back to S1 and have more civilian scenes.

I kind of wouldn't be surprised if they push Helix and have Laurel act as a sort of bodyguard to Felicity since I cant see them having her try to be a lawyer and since everyone thinks she was Black Canary, it would be an easy route to take job wise.

[Mellowyellow]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

And of course they will probably kill Rene or Curtis off sometime by the end of the season. 

Oh a girl can only hope!

DIE CURTIS DIE 

Probably no Olicitot but I won't say no to a dead N00b. I doubt it though because I don't get nice things ???

[statsgirl]

According to DR's timeline, Diggle will only be gone from the team for the first two episodes

Phil Klemmer can write for a team of 7.  The Arrow writers can barely write for 5. This has disaster written all ver it.

47 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I think they're trying to make BC the leader of her own team? At least, I'm assuming.

If they are, it's proof they've learned nothing from Civil War: The Arrow Version.

[strikera0]

55 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Literally only to give SA, EBR, and DR more time off while still giving them more money and to give DC more IP to sell is the point. Never said it was a good reason, but it's not as if the writers are automatically jumping down to the worst ideas that they can pick (that haven't even been proven to be happening).

 

But see, if it was just about giving SA, EBR and DR more time off and a pay raise, why not simply cut the cord on the failed noobie characters and start over with a couple of new recurring characters played by cheap no-name actors? I know people are assuming that DC has a say in this, but frankly, I find it very hard to believe that Arrow's butchered versions of Black Canary, Mister Terrific and Wild Dog are able to boost merchandising sales. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by strikera0

[way2interested]

6 minutes ago, strikera0 said:

But see, if it was just about giving SA, EBR and DR more time off and a pay raise, why not simply cut the cord on these failed characters and start over with a couple of new recurring characters played by cheap no-name actors? I know people are assuming that DC has a say in this, but frankly, I find it very hard to believe that Arrow's butchered versions of Black Canary, Mister Terrific and Wild Dog are able to boost merchandising sales. 

They can't cut the cord unless the higher ups give them the ok. DC/WB does have a say in this, and is the main reason this team exists in the first place, along with the typical tradition of introducing new characters to an aging show. Neither of us have any idea what the numbers are, but they must be good enough to keep all of the newbies around. And if the newbies are hated so much, why would they want to start all of this again (bringing newer newbies which would alienate the older fans who will now resent all newbies and the fans of the present newbies) rather than try to strengthen the multiple brands they already have? Ray obviously didn't give them the numbers they wanted for a solo spin-off, but apparently enough that they felt confident to include him in their new spin-off regardless, this might be a similar thought process.

Edited May 7, 2018 by way2interested

[Primal Slayer]

The actors that they already have are cheap and they like them. And now that the big dramatics are over they can start repairing the characters and their relationships with one another.

[SmallScreenDiva]

47 minutes ago, strikera0 said:

why not simply cut the cord on the failed noobie characters and start over with a couple of new recurring characters played by cheap no-name actors?

It won't happen but I actually prefer this. Been seeing tweets from fans asking for more maskless characters and more just "ordinary" Star City residents. Have those be the people OTA interacts with instead of these redundant masks. But that doesn't fulfill the Time Warner/WB mandate to use more IPs. So we're stuck with the awful n00bs.

[bethy]

If we're stuck with the stupid n00bs, I’d like them to have their own team, please. Easier to fast-forward through those scenes.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I kind of wouldn't be surprised if they push Helix and have Laurel act as a sort of bodyguard to Felicity since I cant see them having her try to be a lawyer and since everyone thinks she was Black Canary, it would be an easy route to take job wise.

I could see Dinah ending up as security for Felicity and honestly, I'd be open to letting them speak to one another if Dinah manages not to keep pissing me off, but I can't envision Felicity EVER trusting NotLaurel.  And if she has William in her life as well?  Hell no.  Oliver would never be ok with that either.   

[Mary0360]

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I could see Dinah ending up as security for Felicity and honestly, I'd be open to letting them speak to one another if Dinah manages not to keep pissing me off, but I can't envision Felicity EVER trusting NotLaurel.  And if she has William in her life as well?  Hell no.  Oliver would never be ok with that either.   

I don't see Black Siren ever being on Team Arrow as much as her fans are desperate for it. At most she'll be the new Malcom- evil but will join forces with Team Arrow if it suits her own interest.

 

The writers have made no effort into either Black Sirens redemption or even her as a character in her own merits for the outcome to be her joining the Team and being their BFF. She's not her own character. She basically a character used to serve other characters I.e Cayden, Quentin, Diaz. She has minimal motivation, agency, or point of view.  So I don't see why that's going to suddenly change next season.  

[Primal Slayer]

A lot can happen in 6 months. If they want her to be around the team or bodyguard they can find a way.

[negescu]

I see her join team arrow at end of season 7, when she earned her redemption, and i think she will have more scenes with dinah in season 7.

[Chaser]

Keeping her so disconnected from everyone but Lance is a very weird choice if the intention has always been to redeem her and have her join the Team. Unless they didn't know that this would be PB last season and he was supposed to be her foot in the door. Or they didn't originally plan on keeping her around and something changed. Either way though, its odd cause the whole thing was about BS looking like Laurel and Laurel was apart of TA but no one cared at all but Lance. Which makes me think that the separation between BS and Oliver was a BTS thing with SA and KC.  If that's the case, I can't see BS ever joining TA.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Chaser