Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[MAK]

32 minutes ago, amazinglybored said:

I think he was supposed to be Sam’s biological son. It’s just that there’s a lot of wiggle room there and they don’t categorically establish it so you could come up with a number of theories that can’t be proven or disproven.

Absolutely.  In fact I personally think that it is more probable that the kid and Mom would be supernatural survivors that Sam encountered on his case in Austin. With perhaps the woman already pregnant, so Sam has a chance to name the kid.

[ahrtee]

23 minutes ago, MAK said:

Absolutely.  In fact I personally think that it is more probable that the kid and Mom would be supernatural survivors that Sam encountered on his case in Austin. With perhaps the woman already pregnant, so Sam has a chance to name the kid.

So he just forgot about Eileen and fell in love immediately with someone he just met?  Though, considering that "Dean" didn't look that old when Sam died (which should have been, what, 30 years?  40 years? later) I'm going to assume it took him a while for him to have a child, however he managed it. 

ETA: Unless Nu!Dean was supernatural and aged verrrryyy slowly. Or (like Jack) aged quickly to young adulthood and then stopped. 😊

Edited February 3, 2021 by ahrtee

[MAK]

So much was left open for interpretation,  unfortunately. 

In interviews JP said it wasn't (or probably wasn't Eileen). If it was, it was easy enough for Sam to sign to her in the backyard scene, but they didn't. They didn't need the actress to show that. Sam didn't look much older when he picked up Dean 2 in the park, so not much time between Dean's death and that scene. The adult Dean 2 looks less than 30 years old, (even the actor is supposed to be 25?). Sam looking like he was a 100 years old on his deathbed, who knows what the writers and makeup artists were thinking?

IMO, Sam only lived around 30 years after Dean died, had some sickness that made him age, so was closer to 70 when he died. Maybe the mother was Eileen, maybe not. Don't know if she was brought back by Jack. Even if it was Eileen, seems Sam was without wife towards the end. If she meant a lot to him, they could have had one blurry wedding photo or a blurry family photo of the 3 of them. They didn't, only Winchesters on tne photo wall.

So who knows? No interpretation can be definitely wrong or right.

[Katy M]

Turns out Sam didn't learn anything after all. He played poker with that Patrick witch from The Curious Case.  So, did Dean Jr.  Shortly after their studying session (5 years before he ended up dying).  The son only lost 10 years or so.  Sam lost a bunch.  So, he only ended up living 15 years past when Dean died.  

He married Eileen but an angel became obsessed with her. He stole her away somewhere and wiped her memories from Sam and Dean Jr's mind. Then he obviously had to steal all the family photos.

Or, he married a shapeshifter so the kid could always look forever young and since they constantly changed in appearance there was no point for pictures.

Obviously there is no doubt that one of those theories is the right one:)

[ahrtee]

Maybe the whole last episode was a dream, and Sam's going to wake up to Dean singing "Heat of the Moment."

[FlickChick]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe the whole last episode was a dream, and Sam's going to wake up to Dean singing "Heat of the Moment."

See, this is why I'm not letting Badd's abysmal last season affect my enjoyment of the show in re-watches. The finale in particular was nothing but a stab in the back to all Dean fans and to the actor who played him - pun intended. In my mind, the final season never happened and Badd can take his story and shove it where the sun don't shine.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe the whole last episode was a dream, and Sam's going to wake up to Dean singing "Heat of the Moment."

I would be thrilled beyond words, like, in the top ten of things that ever happened, if they brought the show back and completely disregarded the Badd years. Cas and Sam walk down the stairs in the bunker, not to find Lady-I-Never-Existed there, but Dean, alive and well and holding Amara's gift - an unlimited Platinum Am-Ex. No Mary, no uncaging Lucifer, therefore no Jack, Crowley still their frenemy, etc. 

Sadly, the more time that goes by, the more impossible it becomes to do anything that puts them back in time. So I'll hope for a scenario where Sam called a ambulance and Dean lived, the whole future Sam and his blurry wife a coma-induced dream they recall when they remenisce about that vampire hunt Dean nearly died on. One short scene and then they're off on whatever hunt brings them back.

But mostly,  at this point,  I hope they never revisit the show.  

[PAForrest]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would be thrilled beyond words, like, in the top ten of things that ever happened, if they brought the show back and completely disregarded the Badd years. Cas and Sam walk down the stairs in the bunker, not to find Lady-I-Never-Existed there, but Dean, alive and well and holding Amara's gift - an unlimited Platinum Am-Ex. No Mary, no uncaging Lucifer, therefore no Jack, Crowley still their frenemy, etc. 

Sadly, the more time that goes by, the more impossible it becomes to do anything that puts them back in time. So I'll hope for a scenario where Sam called a ambulance and Dean lived, the whole future Sam and his blurry wife a coma-induced dream they recall when they remenisce about that vampire hunt Dean nearly died on. One short scene and then they're off on whatever hunt brings them back.

But mostly,  at this point,  I hope they never revisit the show.  

I gravitate back and forth between wanting Jensen to go back at some point and fix this shit, and OTOH hoping he never thinks about it again mostly because he's just too damn busy doing other better projects. But the last two episodes are really horrible the more I think about it - and I didn't think they were even a little good the first time around. I sincerely feel like the CW should have just ended it at 18, waited until a couple years post-pandemic, and did what they could at the time to get the band back together for a bigger 2-hour wrap-up movie where maybe they could have done it ... if not completely right, then better than the epic fail we got. There were too many dropped plot points and characters we should have seen again. None of it works.

There were at least two comments on twitter by EMTs who bashed Sam for not calling an ambulance and said Dean could have been saved, no question. Which I too assumed at the time, and it certainly made me go out of the series hating Sam for failing Dean on such a grand scale. If that's not the take-away the CW wanted, whoops, too bad so sad. But the point being, they actually could quite easily rewind to that moment in the barn after Dean loses consciousness, then have Sam do the right thing by calling an ambulance, and everything else is Dean's coma fever dream. Given how one-dimensional and unreal things are portrayed after Dean's death, that's a super easy sell. It would almost be a crime if someone didn't rewrite everything from that point - and not just fan fiction writers.

As for those pesky deets about angels and bloodlines being the reason Dean couldn't have one or two little Deans/Deannas running around, please, when has this show ever been completely on point with the deets - even back when the writing was actually good and not the crapfest we were dealt the last few years? Especially when it came to Dean? No, even at its absolute best, details slipped through the wide open cracks. So I say there could still be someone out there who is Dean's biological progeny. Given that it's Dean Winchester, it would a crying shame for humanity if there wasn't.

Fever Dream Dean II was just another slap in the face of Dean fans. Like we were supposed to be so thrilled that they killed off this wildly popular iconic character less than 20 minutes into the last episode, write him completely out of another quarter of the episode, and instead try and replace him with some blurry broodmare's brat that Sam names Dean - because, gosh, that's not even a little tone deaf. Sorry, the brat II could never replace the REAL Dean Winchester. He only works as an hallucination.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

As for those pesky deets about angels and bloodlines being the reason Dean couldn't have one or two little Deans/Deannas running around, please, when has this show ever been completely on point with the deets - even back when the writing was actually good and not the crapfest we were dealt the last few years? Especially when it came to Dean? No, even at its absolute best, details slipped through the wide open cracks. So I say there could still be someone out there who is Dean's biological progeny. Given that it's Dean Winchester, it would a crying shame for humanity if there wasn't.

I agree, and especially regarding the angelic vessel/bloodline thing. It was Winchester/Campbell progeny that Heaven worked so hard to engineer as the perfect vessels. Adam was half original recipe John Winchester, and even he was considered inferior vessel material. Dean's child would be John&Mary-once-removed. I doubt that would've been good enough for Michael.

Edited February 4, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

This Twitter thread of Jensen's  Dean's tongue is glorious. You're welcome.

 

[Casseiopeia]

Not Dean...but you know...do we care?

 

[Myrelle]

Jensen's birthday has become as big of a social media event as Dean's.

I can't wait for the avalanche of love that it's sure to bring both actor and character once again. 

It's pretty Amazing, to say the least, almost 100 days after the end of the show.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Myrelle

[Casseiopeia]

I didn't start crying until she did

 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I didn't start crying until she did

 

I agree - it's one of, if not the best, scenes of the series. It's criminal that Jensen did not get any mainstream respect for his portrayal of Dean Winchester.

It's also criminal, what I want to do to the idiot Destiel posters in that thread.

Edited February 26, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[Casseiopeia]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's also criminal, what I want to do to the idiot Destiel posters in that thread.

It's  a shipping war. I didn't realize she was a Wincester when I shared her tweet.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

It's  a shipping war. I didn't realize she was a Wincester when I shared her tweet.

I honestly don't care about either ship or their fantasies - I just wish that they saw Dean as more than a prop (or much, much worse) for their favorite. And most especially for the Destiel people, everything has to come back to Dean being bi and generally the sub in the relationship.

If Dean was gay or bi, he should, could and most definitely would do better than either Cas or Sam.

[Pondlass1]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If Dean was gay or bi, he should, could and most definitely would do better than either Cas or Sam.

Ain’t that the truth! 🙄

 

[shoetingstar]

 I've been watching Season 2 after realizing it's my least-watched season of the Core 1st 5 seasons. (From most watched to least: Season 5,4,1,3,2...)

I find myself yelling, "Yes! Smart!Dean!" Like "Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things" (2x4) when he recognized the circle of dead grass around a new grave and knew they had a case. He had to give Sam multiple evidence to convince him. And episode The Usual Suspects and they only had the clue "Dana Shulps" to go on. They were in separate interrogation rooms working it out and both came to the conclusion it was an Anagram. I think in later seasons, it would have been just Sammy working it out. Also, it's been interesting revisiting that conflict with Sterling K. Brown's Gordon. As well as Jo, Ellen and Ash.

On 2/26/2021 at 12:55 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I honestly don't care about either ship or their fantasies - I just wish that they saw Dean as more than a prop (or much, much worse) for their favorite. And most especially for the Destiel people, everything has to come back to Dean being bi and generally the sub in the relationship.

If Dean was gay or bi, he should, could and most definitely would do better than either Cas or Sam.

Look, My favorite *ship features a character that was on the show once and casually referenced 2 additional times. So it made sense to me and I didn't mind it at the beginning. I just wonder how many can say they actually LIKE DEAN in and of himself?! How valuable is he just by himself to many of them? That's my number one issue/observation.

On 2/3/2021 at 5:20 PM, ahrtee said:

Maybe the whole last episode was a dream, and Sam's going to wake up to Dean singing "Heat of the Moment."

Or in Dean in the shower ala Bobby Ewing on Dallas (those my age may remember that! lol). 

Edited March 1, 2021 by shoetingstar
*cuz shit and SHIP are not the same! LOL

[Myrelle]

9 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

It's  a shipping war. I didn't realize she was a Wincester when I shared her tweet.

Yeah, I knew she was a Wincester when she mentioned how all he had to do was think about Jared dying. 🙄

Neither side is better than the other in this shipper's war where it concerns Jensen or Dean, AFAIC. 

They both suck out loud equally.

But no one can deny that Jensen's acting has been Emmy worthy on this show from early on and it felt so good to see him win that Critic's Choice Award this year for that very reason-finally all his hard work over those 15 long years was rewarded with no mention whatsoever of any ships and up against some other oh-so-incredible actors.

I felt so good for him when they announced his name. It was so long coming. 

And I could easily see an Emmy or Oscar award in his future. Easily-now that he has moved on from the ridiculousness of what Supernatural and it's fandom became in it's sad and sorry ending.

I'm looking so forward to seeing what he can do on mainstream shows like The Boys with writers who care again and unencumbered by the weights  that both he(and Dean) were made to carry on Supernatural, and practically from Day One, tbh and IMO.

 

 

 

 

[Pondlass1]

Well he certainly will be able to hold his own on screen with the likes of the excellent actor who plays Homelander. 

[Casseiopeia]

18 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I honestly don't care about either ship or their fantasies - I just wish that they saw Dean as more than a prop (or much, much worse) for their favorite. And most especially for the Destiel people, everything has to come back to Dean being bi and generally the sub in the relationship.

If Dean was gay or bi, he should, could and most definitely would do better than either Cas or Sam.

Dean is certainly the character everyone wants to take ownership of.

[DeeDee79]

15 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

I've been watching Season 2 after realizing it's my least-watched season of the Core 1st 5 seasons.

Least?! For shame! Season 2 was a such a good one.

15 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

My favorite shit features a character that was on the show once and casually referenced 2 additional times.

I assume you meant to write "ship" 🙂 but who was the character?

[Pondlass1]

23 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Least?! For shame! Season 2 was a such a good one.

I agree wholeheartedly. It could be almost my favourite, but favourites keep changing as I do a re-watch of the series. As I move through the seasons I’m actually finding myself appreciating episodes that I didn’t think much of when first viewed. Compared to most of the drivel on TV today, and considering the fast shoot and small budget this show holds up very well indeed. 

Dean Winchester is a dark complex man and Jensen never allowed anyone to ‘clean’ him up and make him fit with network TV’s usual wholesome ideology. He really belonged on HBO. 
 

[ahrtee]

Happy Birthday, Jensen !!!

Edited March 1, 2021 by ahrtee

[Casseiopeia]

Still my favorite picture.

Happy Birthday Jensen Ackles!

 

[shoetingstar]

On 2/27/2021 at 10:36 AM, DeeDee79 said:

Least?! For shame! Season 2 was a such a good one.

I assume you meant to write "ship" 🙂 but who was the character?

Yeah, it wasn't on purpose lol. The Plus side is that the episode are less worn-in and so I get to enjoy them in a new way. 

On 2/28/2021 at 10:49 AM, Pondlass1 said:

I agree wholeheartedly. It could be almost my favourite, but favourites keep changing as I do a re-watch of the series. As I move through the seasons I’m actually finding myself appreciating episodes that I didn’t think much of when first viewed. Compared to most of the drivel on TV today, and considering the fast shoot and small budget this show holds up very well indeed. 

Dean Winchester is a dark complex man and Jensen never allowed anyone to ‘clean’ him up and make him fit with network TV’s usual wholesome ideology. He really belonged on HBO. 
 

Agreed! I'm continually impressed with how Thoughtfully written and plotted these seasons were. Like Edith and Archie sang: "Those Were The Days..."  I like he how they played-up the Boys belief or lack of belief in God and/or Angels and how it kind of flipped around for both....(then they later seasons Royally effed-it up IMHO) but it was interesting to tease at the beginning.

7 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Still my favorite picture.

Happy Birthday Jensen Ackles!

 

We really need a THIRST option here!: 

[DeeDee79]

45 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

Yeah, it wasn't on purpose lol. The Plus side is that the episode are less worn-in and so I get to enjoy them in a new way. 

 

True! So who is the character that you ship him with? I'm eager to know!

[shoetingstar]

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

 

True! So who is the character that you ship him with? I'm eager to know!

Ms. Cassie Robinson from the infamous Route 666 (1x13)! I could go on about those two (And I have in other threads lol!)

And boy, If I had a dollar for every time a Destiel fan who commented, "OMG! Cassie...Castiel...Cas!! See Dean and Castiel were meant to be!" I would be a much richer gal! (I admit the show has a lot of coincidences.). (I also loved Sarah with Sam - though Cassie had a more significant purpose in her one episode.)

[ahrtee]

Continuing from the SuperNormal thread (Not intending to stray into BvJ ):

8 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

I guess we need a object criteria to establish who would carry on best without the other. Because Sam did not function well when Dean was in hell. He was involved with Ruby and addicted to demon blood (thought I personally didn't like Sam's abilities being continually villainized).  

Dean didn't have a support network? hmm...I have think more about that. I guess toward the last few seasons. But they honestly had the same group of friends and Dean had hunters from when it was just him & John that he knew. In "The End" Dean lead a whole camp of people alone. But again that was Zachariah created scenario.

I didn't say Sam functioned *well,* just that he functioned better than Dean had (who didn't actually get much of a chance to adapt to Sam being dead.) 😊  Sam was definitely off the rails, especially in the early seasons, the 6 months of Mystery Spot and the 4 months of Dean in hell; he was driven and cold but had a purpose and was functional.  He had already been working with Ruby during all of season 3 to try to save Dean; after Dean died Sam turned semi-suicidal and drunk (as Dean would have done, I assume); but when Ruby showed up and "spoke to him the way Dean would have," and gave him a purpose and a partner to work with, he took it, even though what she gave him was revenge instead of trying to save Dean.   She was the kind of substitute Dean he needed at that point to keep him going.  His later "substitutes" were more family/support (like Amelia and the AU hunters)--people who cared about him and looked up to him.  Dean's twitchy survivors in The End needed him to protect them; but to me, the difference is that that Dean never really considered his group as family--or he wouldn't have been so cavalier about their deaths.  Sam certainly took every AU hunter's deaths personally.

Maybe I shouldn't have said that Dean didn't have a support network, but that he never used any of his friends or acquaintances for emotional support.  He was used to being the one in control, and (IMO) was unwilling/unable to ask for that kind of help.  He could ask others to help in a hunt (and a very few trusted friends to find Sam when he was missing), but wouldn't accept personal support.  Sam either could ask for help or, more likely, didn't push it away/deny it as I imagine Dean did. 

With Sam dead, Dean pushed Bobby away and sold his soul without talking to anyone or considering alternatives (granted, he was totally burned out on no sleep or food and too much booze and stress for days).   

With Dean dying (in Faith, or IMTOD) Sam asked John and everyone he knew for help; and with Dean dead and Ruby offering a new direction, he followed her.  

We'll never know if Dean would have eventually accepted Sam's death and moved on, since he never had more than the one year with Lisa and Ben (while he was still trying everything to get him back) to judge by.  But I can't really see him giving up hunting and having the kind of peaceful/boring life Sam seems to  have lived after Dean died.  Maybe.  

[MAK]

If Sam had died on a hunt on a freak accident, Dean would have yelled for Jack to bring him back. If he wasn't brought back, he would have continued hunting alone, and recklessly. He may have died soon after, or because he can't be purposely incompetent (only reckless), he might have lived longer than he wanted. Don't think he would have found a woman and settled down. At the very most, he might have gotten involved with Jodie's girls' lives, in a somewhat protector role.

 

[tessathereaper]

36 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Continuing from the SuperNormal thread (Not intending to stray into BvJ 😞

I didn't say Sam functioned *well,* just that he functioned better than Dean had (who didn't actually get much of a chance to adapt to Sam being dead.) 😊  Sam was definitely off the rails, especially in the early seasons, the 6 months of Mystery Spot and the 4 months of Dean in hell; he was driven and cold but had a purpose and was functional.  He had already been working with Ruby during all of season 3 to try to save Dean; after Dean died Sam turned semi-suicidal and drunk (as Dean would have done, I assume); but when Ruby showed up and "spoke to him the way Dean would have," and gave him a purpose and a partner to work with, he took it, even though what she gave him was revenge instead of trying to save Dean.   She was the kind of substitute Dean he needed at that point to keep him going.  His later "substitutes" were more family/support (like Amelia and the AU hunters)--people who cared about him and looked up to him.  Dean's twitchy survivors in The End needed him to protect them; but to me, the difference is that that Dean never really considered his group as family--or he wouldn't have been so cavalier about their deaths.  Sam certainly took every AU hunter's deaths personally.

Maybe I shouldn't have said that Dean didn't have a support network, but that he never used any of his friends or acquaintances for emotional support.  He was used to being the one in control, and (IMO) was unwilling/unable to ask for that kind of help.  He could ask others to help in a hunt (and a very few trusted friends to find Sam when he was missing), but wouldn't accept personal support.  Sam either could ask for help or, more likely, didn't push it away/deny it as I imagine Dean did. 

With Sam dead, Dean pushed Bobby away and sold his soul without talking to anyone or considering alternatives (granted, he was totally burned out on no sleep or food and too much booze and stress for days).   

With Dean dying (in Faith, or IMTOD) Sam asked John and everyone he knew for help; and with Dean dead and Ruby offering a new direction, he followed her.  

We'll never know if Dean would have eventually accepted Sam's death and moved on, since he never had more than the one year with Lisa and Ben (while he was still trying everything to get him back) to judge by.  But I can't really see him giving up hunting and having the kind of peaceful/boring life Sam seems to  have lived after Dean died.  Maybe.  

I don't think we can use that time in Season 2 as a guide, Sam was only dead a couple of days before Dean sold his soul, the first few days of grief are often rather intense.  That's hardly a guide to long term.  

I also don't see how Dean didn't lean on his friends?  He never really was in a situation where that would have happened so we don't know for sure but when it was offered he took it, and I'm quite sure, Jody, et all would have offered and he generally did accept personal support from them, he responded well to offers of actual support(as opposed to "you are handling this wrong, you should be doing it the way I'm telling you when I want you to" that Sam and Cas usually shoved on him).  

IMO after Sam's death in Season 5, Dean did go through a pretty normal grief, all things considered, and yeah he looked for ways to bring him back but it wasn't a normal death, he had jumped into the pit which isn't the same thing exactly.  Dean was looking for a way to free him, in his spare time.  But otherwise he functioned pretty well considering his background and what had actually happened.  And actually far better than we ever saw Sam functioning.

I think personally it's just Jensen's way of dealing with it, he couldn't change what happened so he HAS to outwardly at least believe it was better, if only one brother had to die,  for Dean die, esp when we know he did NOT believe that before(unless it was both brothers going out in a blaze of glory, Jensen ALWAYS had scenarios where Dean lived in the end and moved on, probably still hunting but definitely still with purpose).    

At least until he can get that reboot where he changes things, which he repeatedly talks about.  To him, I really think, Dean isn't really dead, this is temporary, he's gonna be back again. :)

[ahrtee]

58 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I don't think we can use that time in Season 2 as a guide, Sam was only dead a couple of days before Dean sold his soul, the first few days of grief are often rather intense.  That's hardly a guide to long term.  

Actually, I was saying the same thing:  that we really never saw Dean living on without Sam for any length of time to know how he would (eventually) react.  And yes, he would naturally keep trying to save Sam from the Pit (which is why it was so cruel of Bobby, at least, not to tell Dean that Sam was out, even if it didn't occur to Soulless Sam). 

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

IMO after Sam's death in Season 5, Dean did go through a pretty normal grief, all things considered, and yeah he looked for ways to bring him back but it wasn't a normal death, he had jumped into the pit which isn't the same thing exactly.  Dean was looking for a way to free him, in his spare time.  But otherwise he functioned pretty well considering his background and what had actually happened.  And actually far better than we ever saw Sam functioning.

I think Dean might have stayed with Lisa and Ben if he knew Sam was safe, but I think he was too entrenched in the hunting life to ever give it up entirely--his instincts were still making him follow up leads and worry about his family (and remember his smile when he uncovered Baby and went back on the road).  Sam apparently was able to ignore everything to do with hunting while he was with Amelia.  That, to me, indicates that he might have been able to give up hunting for a "normal" life more easily than Dean would.  I think Dean would always be more alert to potential danger (and had the need to protect everyone), and I think he'd always be worried about bringing danger to a "civilian" family. 

I think his best chance for a "happily ever after" would be something like Samuel and Deanna--a family who understood hunting and kept an eye out for local threats, but (apparently) didn't let it drive their entire lives.  They had a home (and a home life); though I could see Dean teaching his children to defend themselves, but not raising them to be hunters unless they chose it for themselves.   That's more or less what he was suggesting to Sam, to settle down with Eileen.  

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

I also don't see how Dean didn't lean on his friends?  He never really was in a situation where that would have happened so we don't know for sure but when it was offered he took it, and I'm quite sure, Jody, et all would have offered and he generally did accept personal support from them, he responded well to offers of actual support(as opposed to "you are handling this wrong, you should be doing it the way I'm telling you when I want you to" that Sam and Cas usually shoved on him).  

This is JMO, of course, but I never really saw Dean admitting to needing help (much less asking for it) from anyone except Sam and Cas.  There were a few he would accept it from--mostly Bobby and Jody, IMO, but he would never ask or lean on them for anything, and it was always low-key:  a quick hug or squeeze of the hand from Jody, and expressing his worries about Sam to Bobby, but not really discussing his own feelings.  

 

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

I think personally it's just Jensen's way of dealing with it, he couldn't change what happened so he HAS to outwardly at least believe it was better, if only one brother had to die,  for Dean die, esp when we know he did NOT believe that before(unless it was both brothers going out in a blaze of glory, Jensen ALWAYS had scenarios where Dean lived in the end and moved on, probably still hunting but definitely still with purpose).    

At least until he can get that reboot where he changes things, which he repeatedly talks about.  To him, I really think, Dean isn't really dead, this is temporary, he's gonna be back again. :)

I'll agree with this.  I don't remember Jensen ever talking about Dean going on without Sam: mostly, they both went out in a blaze of glory.  Personally, I would have loved to see Dean happy and settled and no longer worrying about Sam, even if it was Sam retired and surrounded by grandchildren while Dean kept hunting (or becoming the new Bobby).  

[MAK]

Mostly because Dean had become hard-wired to always put Sam first. Sam's death would have left him mostly purposeless. He wouldn't be able to "replace" Sam with a woman or child.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, MAK said:

Mostly because Dean had become hard-wired to always put Sam first. Sam's death would have left him mostly purposeless. He wouldn't be able to "replace" Sam with a woman or child.

I think if Sam were truly dead (and especially if Dean knew he was happy in heaven) he would be able to get past grief and move on.  But I think he'd still have the "protect" drive, and if he didn't have Sam as his purpose, he'd extend that to a family (remember how paranoid he was about protecting Lisa and Ben after the djinn found them.)  

[Pondlass1]

Jensen’s moved on to bigger and better things so what does it matter.  He’s decided to go along with the narrative...yep, he was okay with the finale. (Yet remember he had to be talked into it) 

It’s his take on Dean that has me dismayed.  I thought he knew the character. Dean wouldn’t  end up drinking his life away in some bar if Sam had gone to heavenly heaven. He’d just as likely married and had children. He managed it with Lisa even though stressed out thinking Sam was in hell. Dean’s actually a people person.

The big difference between the brothers in that final episode in my opinion was that Dean would never have allowed Sam to die in that barn. Number one daddy directive ... save Sammy. It was drilled into his brain.
 

 

 

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The big difference between the brothers in that final episode in my opinion was that Dean would never have allowed Sam to die in that barn. Number one daddy directive ... save Sammy. It was drilled into his brain

I always wonder what would have happened if Sam *had* called the paramedics to save Dean...and the police came and found Sam standing among 5 decapitated people, holding a bloody machete.  I don't think the "vampire" defense would have worked very well....

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I always wonder what would have happened if Sam *had* called the paramedics to save Dean...and the police came and found Sam standing among 5 decapitated people, holding a bloody machete.  I don't think the "vampire" defense would have worked very well....

I think he would have had to call the paramedics and then take off.  If they're like the fire department and get there in exactly 7 minutes (Devil's Trap), then he could wait around 6 1/2 minutes and leave.

On the other hand, when they dropped that car on Edgar, the paramedics came and took Sam and Dean and apparently didn't care about the body under the car.  

We know Bobby said Sam and DEan didn't invent lying to the cops, but it's really hard to figure out what he possibly could have said after the called an ambulance for Meg.  She'd been shot and fallen out of a building and now is just lying on Bobby's floor.  

 

[Aeryn13]

It was never my main problem that Dean died but how. Right away after being free of Chuck to make it seem like every skill he ever had was written in. In a stupid, lame way, not even really saving anyone. Denigrating himself in his final moments to give Sam a tongue bath. Not acknowledged afterwards at all, noone at the funeral, no legacy spoken of nothing. And just driving around, waiting for Sam because even in death he can`t be allowed to be his own person. 

They could have done some editing magic for a funeral with Sam giving a nice acknowledgment speech. Anything else beyond absolutely nothing.

 

 

[Icarus]

I am one of the few – on this forum – that thought the ending was very emotional and I loved how they showed the brothers love for each other. I would rather Dean had not died and from what I understand that was the hiccup with Jensen at first but taking that was how it was decided to end the series it was done beautifully with Jensen adding the forehead and hand holding making it even more touching. I don't understand how anyone can say Jensen does not understand Dean, it just doesn't make sense. Jensen IS Dean, he made the character what it was, it was Jensen who put the Dean in Dean. The writing was towards the last half of the series all over the place at times but Jensen always gave 100% even when the writing made little sense, he IMO never not tried to do his best with the material he was given.

[7kstar]

5 hours ago, Icarus said:

I don't understand how anyone can say Jensen does not understand Dean, it just doesn't make sense. Jensen IS Dean, he made the character what it was, it was Jensen who put the Dean in Dean. The writing was towards the last half of the series all over the place at times but Jensen always gave 100% even when the writing made little sense, he IMO never not tried to do his best with the material he was given.

Yes, Jensen had a strong sense of who Dean was.  However, I think sometimes he got stuck thinking about Dean in a certain way and didn't see some of the characteristics that the fans saw or some of the best writers saw.  The last few years the writing wasn't as strong and Jensen was left trying to keep the character alive.   I do believe he did the best he could with the material he was given.

Dean showed he could make a life when he was living with Lisa and Ben.  Yes, he was longing to help his brother, but had he known that Sam was happy in heaven, I think he could have adapted.

I didn't have a problem with Dean dying but how.  Other's have stated it well.  It was a sloppy ending.  The death scene was touching but also upsetting in that it could have been done better in better hands. 

It also has killed my interest in the show for now.  I've only seen the ending once.  I don't have a desire to watch it again. After some time I'll watch the seasons I liked but for now I'm letting the show go.  It's even killed my desire to read fanfiction on it.

I will always like Dean and respect Jensen.  I think you have to understand you can be upset with how they ended the show without blaming Jensen or Dean.

The only positive thing they did, they had the brothers being brothers and showing how much they loved each other.  Thank goodness they didn't end it with them fighting each other.

One of the reasons this show has so much fanfiction, is that the characters are so rich with possibilities and so many ways to interpret their actions.  It's why so many fans are passionate about their point of view of the characters.  There are places for agreement, but also places to disagree on.  Not the first time I didn't agree with everything Jensen has stated about Dean.  lol

[tessathereaper]

20 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, I was saying the same thing:  that we really never saw Dean living on without Sam for any length of time to know how he would (eventually) react.  And yes, he would naturally keep trying to save Sam from the Pit (which is why it was so cruel of Bobby, at least, not to tell Dean that Sam was out, even if it didn't occur to Soulless Sam). 

I think Dean might have stayed with Lisa and Ben if he knew Sam was safe, but I think he was too entrenched in the hunting life to ever give it up entirely--his instincts were still making him follow up leads and worry about his family (and remember his smile when he uncovered Baby and went back on the road).  Sam apparently was able to ignore everything to do with hunting while he was with Amelia.  That, to me, indicates that he might have been able to give up hunting for a "normal" life more easily than Dean would.  I think Dean would always be more alert to potential danger (and had the need to protect everyone), and I think he'd always be worried about bringing danger to a "civilian" family. 

I think his best chance for a "happily ever after" would be something like Samuel and Deanna--a family who understood hunting and kept an eye out for local threats, but (apparently) didn't let it drive their entire lives.  They had a home (and a home life); though I could see Dean teaching his children to defend themselves, but not raising them to be hunters unless they chose it for themselves.   That's more or less what he was suggesting to Sam, to settle down with Eileen.  

This is JMO, of course, but I never really saw Dean admitting to needing help (much less asking for it) from anyone except Sam and Cas.  There were a few he would accept it from--mostly Bobby and Jody, IMO, but he would never ask or lean on them for anything, and it was always low-key:  a quick hug or squeeze of the hand from Jody, and expressing his worries about Sam to Bobby, but not really discussing his own feelings.  

 

I'll agree with this.  I don't remember Jensen ever talking about Dean going on without Sam: mostly, they both went out in a blaze of glory.  Personally, I would have loved to see Dean happy and settled and no longer worrying about Sam, even if it was Sam retired and surrounded by grandchildren while Dean kept hunting (or becoming the new Bobby).  

None of them ever admitted to needing help in any consistent way, Sam was worse about it then Dean was if anything. 

Dean had friends who would help, whether he asked or not, which is pretty much how it works in real life most of the time anyway, esp after a death. 

And I don't think "retiring from hunting" is necessary.  There is nothing saying that because Sam dies, Dean would need to give up hunting entirely.  If Sam had been the one who died, Dean's life wouldn't have to be exactly like Sam's life turned out to be.  If we're just talking about a "What if Sam died instead..." scenario that doesn't therefore necessarily mean Dean has to retire from hunting completely. And Dean always worked perfectly well with others.

20 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'll agree with this.  I don't remember Jensen ever talking about Dean going on without Sam: mostly, they both went out in a blaze of glory.  Personally, I would have loved to see Dean happy and settled and no longer worrying about Sam, even if it was Sam retired and surrounded by grandchildren while Dean kept hunting (or becoming the new Bobby).  

Jensen did, not in a deeply detailed way but the most frequently mentioned one was after Sam died, Dean take off on a motorcycle in the end. 

Also I will say to anyone in general I never said Jensen doesn't know Dean, I think he knows him better than anyone.  IMO if that's what he had to do to move on and accept it, then that's what he had to do but it's clear it certainly wasn't his feelings all along.  And given he still wants a reboot and to UNDO that ending in some way, he's still not convinced.

[Bergamot]

17 hours ago, Icarus said:

I don't understand how anyone can say Jensen does not understand Dean, it just doesn't make sense. Jensen IS Dean, he made the character what it was, it was Jensen who put the Dean in Dean. The writing was towards the last half of the series all over the place at times but Jensen always gave 100% even when the writing made little sense, he IMO never not tried to do his best with the material he was given.

Who is saying he didn't? I see no one here who is saying that Jensen didn't always give 100% or do his best with what he was given.

 

22 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I think personally it's just Jensen's way of dealing with it, he couldn't change what happened so he HAS to outwardly at least believe it was better, if only one brother had to die,  for Dean die, esp when we know he did NOT believe that before(unless it was both brothers going out in a blaze of glory, Jensen ALWAYS had scenarios where Dean lived in the end and moved on, probably still hunting but definitely still with purpose).    

At least until he can get that reboot where he changes things, which he repeatedly talks about.  To him, I really think, Dean isn't really dead, this is temporary, he's gonna be back again. 🙂

I like this!  😊  I feel this way also, that Dean isn't really dead! I also agree with what you say about how this is Jensen's way of dealing with it. He didn't say this was the ending he wanted for Dean; he said that in his opinion this is the reason the writers chose to do the story the way they did.

Jensen sees acting as a story that he has to make sense of, we have seen him do this before, like with the way the writers depicted Dean's relationship with Mary. And Jensen never seemed the type to be concerned that Dean always be right about everything or always look perfect or always "win" in a situation -- he didn't want a whitewashed, two-dimensional Dean; he saw Dean as a man with both strengths and weaknesses and he wanted to tell his story. I think this is part of why Dean as a character seemed so real.

Anyway, I think it would have been harder on Dean if he were the one to live on after Sam, but not because Dean was incapable of forming loving relationships with others -- because we saw him doing this many times throughout the show. I just think he would feel that he failed to do his essential primary duty of taking care of Sam. But Dean also always felt and said that he had a duty to save everyone from supernatural evil. As he said once, doing that job was where he found his "peace", and I don't think he would ever stop trying to do it.

One of the parts I liked best about this recent panel is when Jensen was asked what Dean would do in heaven. He talked about Dean going for drives in Baby, drinking beer at Harvelle's Roadhouse, eating dinner at his parents' place, and so on -- but then added that Dean would then get bored and ask Jack to put him "back in the game" so he could be a hunter again! I have a feeling that Jensen feels similar to the way I do, that the ending which the show gave Dean was lame and boring and unworthy of the character. As if Dean would be satisfied and happy for all eternity, spending all his time just going for drives and standing around looking at pretty scenery with Sam!

43 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

And given he still wants a reboot and to UNDO that ending in some way, he's still not convinced.

Good point!

Edited March 9, 2021 by Bergamot

[gonzosgirrl]

Like I wrote on Twitter, that was a nice, PC response Jensen gave regarding the finale, but IMO, wrong. Doesn't change the fact that Jensen is allowed to see it any way he wants - but I will never, ever believe that he would have written it that way, given the choice. As far as his most recent comments that Dean would not have thrived if Sam died - well, canon has disproved that. I think he might have tried to reassure himself that Sam was at peace, with Nougat Baby in charge of heaven, etc., but curl up in a barroom and die? No way, no how. I agree with the sentiment that Jensen is making peace with it all, for now, and if this works for him, more power to him. We're all writing our own head-canon to cope, why shouldn't he?

[Casseiopeia]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

We're all writing our own head-canon

I think that's just it right there. Everyone has their own interpretation of the show and it's characters. Even Jensen. In this scenario apparently Jensen feels that given his history (at least what stands out for Jensen) Dean wouldn't be as good at moving on as Sam has been.  Honestly some of Jensen's most powerful performances have been Dean's sacrifice's for his family and what those sacrifice's did to him. Those performance's are probably just as memorable for Jensen as they are for us.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

23 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I think that's just it right there. Everyone has their own interpretation of the show and it's characters. Even Jensen. In this scenario apparently Jensen feels that given his history (at least what stands out for Jensen) Dean wouldn't be as good at moving on as Sam has been.  Honestly some of Jensen's most powerful performances have been Dean's sacrifice's for his family and what those sacrifice's did to him. Those performance's are probably just as memorable for Jensen as they are for us.

 

I would've been okay if he just said Dean would've struggled, or not been as good at moving on (as Sam*) but to say he would likely have drank himself to death in the back of a pool hall? That is just giving up, and not something Dean ever did, even if he felt like/talked about it at times.

*Sam's moving on skills are highly debatable, but that's another post.

Edited March 9, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would've been okay if he just said Dean would've struggled, or not been as good at moving on (as Sam*) but to say he would likely have drank himself to death in the back of a pool hall? That is just giving up, and not something Dean ever did, even if he felt like/talked about it at times.

Did he actually say that?  I didn't hear it.  But I'm going to chalk it up to hyperbole (unless he drank himself to death in the first week, which might be possible.😕)

 

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Did he actually say that?  I didn't hear it.  But I'm going to chalk it up to hyperbole (unless he drank himself to death in the first week, which might be possible.😕)

 

Sorry, what he literally said was, "the loss (sorry, that word is quite muddled and I'm not positive it was 'loss) of his brother would have been the beginning of the end of him. I think that he would have probably  wasted away in the back of a pool hall." The inference of drinking himself to death was mine, but knowing Dean's predilection for drinking and the visual of him wasting away in a pool hall, I think it's not a big stretch.

Edited March 9, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[Casseiopeia]

 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

 

 

Again. Still. Probably forever. </3

[Casseiopeia]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Again. Still. Probably forever. 💔

Not gonna lie....I cried.