S06.E02: JSS

[marinite]

1) Morgan was the first person Rick met once he woke up from his coma.

2) Morgan planted the seeds of survival in Rick, teaching him how to kill walkers, take shelter, scavenge, etc.

3) He was shown to be a tough, but caring character by way of his relationship with his son. Teaching him how to survive, and despite the breakdown of civilization, making sure to instill in Duane integrity and strength of character. Evidenced by his correcting Duane's grammar ("Weren't no man." "What the hell was that out of your mouth just then?" "It WASN'T a man..."), saying grace at a meal, etc.

4) There was always the hope that he would reconnect with Rick, as fed by Rick's continued attempt to communicate with him while possible via the walkie talkie at dawn each day after they separated.

5) In the episode "clear," Morgan was a very broken man. Yet still managed to survive through very smart methods and great strength. We wanted to see him sane again, and see where his arc took him.

A lot of it is that final bit. Seeds were planted about a very charismatic character, and we all know a little curiosity goes a long way in developing interest in a character.

 

Totally agree to all of this, and I'd like to add that, for me, Lenny brings his brilliant nuanced acting skills to really make this character believable and sympathetic.  I so root for him, and when he reappeared this third time, by the "No Sanctuary" altered sign, I excitedly yelled out, "Morgan!"  That was so awesome and unexpected.  Also, I find it heartbreakingly poignant that both Morgan and Rick still wear their wedding rings.

 

This episode was so thrilling!  My friends and I (hi, Julie!) were yelling at the tv nearly the whole time.  Go, Carol !

 

Still don't care a fig for Enid.

Edited October 22, 2015 by marinite

[Boofish]

She held that one woman, trying to calm her, and apparently killed her because she was going to die anyway. Not just to quiet her. 

She also showed real concern when she found out that Sam's father was beating his family.

YEP! Carol is the one that put a hit out on P.D. so to me she is not uncaring and cold her methods are just a little unorthodox. No one was going to do anything about it just like the original CDB sat around the camp fire while Ed beat the crap out of her. That includes Dale self-righteous annoying ass. And remember Jim told Shane that the "marriage was none of his business" 

 

After finding out he was abusive Sasha's words to pasta lady was all the more biting "THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT"

[Ohwell]

I know this will go down as a UO, but in the grand scheme of things, in the midst of a ZA, some guy beating his wife and kid might not be high on the list of things to worry about, so I can understand where Sasha's coming from. 

[Boofish]

I know this will go down as a UO, but in the grand scheme of things, in the midst of a ZA, some guy beating his wife and kid might not be high on the list of things to worry about, so I can understand where Sasha's coming from. 

The fact that they were quite comfortable in spite of the world pretty much coming to an end (with water and electricity) with their own house it was not much else going on. They could have moved that abusive DB to the top of their priority list.

[lulee]

The fact that they were quite comfortable in spite of the world pretty much coming to an end (with water and electricity) with their own house it was not much else going on. They could have moved that abusive DB to the top of their priority list.

Agreed. I don't think the CDB-tent city priorities are comparable to the ASZ priorities, at least as Alexandia was then. If they had a relaxed enough lifestyle for book club, rather than JSSing, they had the option to intervene with PD, M.D. Edited October 22, 2015 by lulee

[Dobian]

Finally caught up with this one.  A rare Rick-less episode.  Yeah, Carol is all kinds of awesome.  Zoey!  I wonder why she picked  this show with such a large ensemble cast and such a potentially short shelf life for her character.  Maybe she's just doing one season as a goof until her next gig.  Good thing Nurse Jackie isn't there, she'd eat up all their meds.  Morgan, the peaceful warrior monk.  I love the guy, but his Batman no-kill philosophy doesn't really cut it in a world full of sociopaths on the loose.  Carl needed to be reminded again to kill first and ask questions later.  Great ep.

[kj4ever]

Excellent comment!  Really interesting analysis of the character and I think you're spot on. 

 

Carol's contempt for the Alexandrians was so obvious.  She practically curls her lip and sneers whenever she speaks to them.  Carol shows her real self to very few people; one of those people is Sam.  How she treats Sam is probably how she would treat the rest of the Alexandrians if she could.  She cried for a couple of them, after they were dead, but I think she was really crying for herself.

I'm starting to think that Carol has been fake since the very beginning.  People keep saying she's becoming hardened, but I'm starting to think that we are now just starting to see the real Carol, not ZA Carol.  I mean seriously this is a woman that didn't run after her own child when it was in danger.  Ice cold from the start .....  Just sayin'

Edited October 22, 2015 by kj4ever

[HighMaintenance]

You can never tell which characters are going to be fan favorites and become an integral part of the story and which will just fade away.  Morgan and Daryl were originally considered to be minor characters (with Daryl not even being part of TWD comics) but both proved so popular that they kept Norman Reedus on and brought Lennie James back into the story.  Maybe Zoey just wanted a short term gig or was a fan of the show?  

 

As far as the motivations for the character's actions, TWD sometimes spells them out, other times they just let the audience draw their own conclusions.  Remember how everyone was sick of Michonne just glowering in season 3 & 4?  We had to wait quite awhile to get ANY kind of glimpse of her past or her motivations behind why she was so guarded.  We may have to wait several episodes to see what Morgan's philosophy change was caused by.  Who knows?  Maybe he had a flash of insight when the lone wolf basically told him "you should have killed me".  You can't reason with evil or insanity.

 

Carol's motivations are much more apparent since we have much more character development on her.  She's a former victim that realized if you don't stand up for yourself, you get hurt or killed.  I don't think she hates anyone in ASZ, but I'd liken it to a hardened combat veteran coming back into an ROTC class. ASZ, in turn have no idea what she and CDB have gone through. The ASZers don't know how to protect themselves, they've never had to go hungry/thirsty for days, wander for months thru zombie infested countryside, see their friends/family killed (or become walkers), mercy kill children, etc.    They are the remnants of the pre-ZA world who still have "first world problems" like not wanting to eat cream of celery soup, or pining for pasta makers.  I would imagine she sees them as children who have no real life experience.

 

Her attitude with Sam is understandable because she doesn't want to get close to another kid (I think she never has gotten over losing Sophia) because it's too painful to lose a child. Flowers or no flowers.  So she distances herself from him, but also wants him to toughen up because of the world that awaits him outside the walls.

[Boofish]

 

 

Her attitude with Sam is understandable because she doesn't want to get close to another kid

 

Remember how she looked when Lizzie called her "mom"

[Ocean Chick]

Carol knows children have a short shelf life these days.  Better not to get too attached.  Besides the fact that Sam has a perfectly good mother already.  He doesn't need another one.

[lulee]

I'm starting to think that Carol has been fake since the very beginning.  People keep saying she's becoming hardened, but I'm starting to think that we are now just starting to see the real Carol, not ZA Carol.  I mean seriously this is a woman that didn't run after her own child when it was in danger.  Ice cold from the start .....  Just sayin'

Season 2 on the farm - she may not have helped much with the search - and really - how good would Season 2 Carol have been at searching without ending up needing to be rescued herself? - but she was far from "ice cold." Just for one example, in "Save the Last One" she's crying pretty much all the time, and for the primest example, she sure wasn't icy in "Pretty Much Already Dead" when walkerSophia emerged from the barn.

 

Those tears on the steps were far far from the first we've seen Carol shed.

[kj4ever]

Season 2 on the farm - she may not have helped much with the search - and really - how good would Season 2 Carol have been at searching without ending up needing to be rescued herself? - but she was far from "ice cold." Just for one example, in "Save the Last One" she's crying pretty much all the time, and for the primest example, she sure wasn't icy in "Pretty Much Already Dead" when walkerSophia emerged from the barn.

 

Those tears on the steps were far far from the first we've seen Carol shed.

99.9% of Mothers would have elbowed Olive Oil in the face and ran after their kid.  99.9% of Mothers would have been searching for said kid instead of doing laundry and bitching about how other people weren't finding her kid.  She was a horrible Mother, and Judith is lucky to break the Carol Curse (so far).

 

I'm just saying that perhaps Carol has been this hard all along, but she was playing CDB just like she's playing the ASZer's.  It's interesting to think about.

[JackONeill]

Can I say this in defense of Carol: the writers in Season 1 probably didn't know what they were going to do with most of the characters (see the length of Daryl's run).

 

All these characters (even Rick) have been, pardon the criticism, poorly sketched. Yes, good actors can rise above some things, but there are times when I get the very real sense that the actors have no idea how to play a scene because of poor writing and poor directing. Yes, it's something we all kid about, the actor who mulls what to do next in the scene, while mumbling, "What's my motivation?"

 

Well, I think there's a whole lot of "non motivation" and it's because, in my opinion, TPTB haven't quite figured out where they're heading.  (Hell, we saw that with Lost, and that was far-and--away better acted, directed, and written.) You need a Spielberg to come in and map out in his story-board way the entire season so EVERYONE is on the same page and knows what the goal is.

Edited October 22, 2015 by JackONeill

[Raven1707]

It's my understanding that kevlar is less effective against sharp piercing implements (definitely arrows, maybe knives and such as well) than it is against bullets. Though I'm not sure Beth's flaily arms could have inflicted a fatal wound with a lightsaber.

 

I marathoned Season 5 earlier this month, and if memory serves, Beth's scissors looked as though they were embedded in Dawn's vest. It's unclear if they penetrated through to the skin, but since Daryl shot Dawn a heartbeat later, I suppose it's a moot point.

 

This episode was directed with a great sense of urgency, but I wish Jennifer Lynch and whomever wrote it would have gotten a visit from the continuity fairy with a moment from Morgan connecting back to last week and someone - maybe Rosita or Maggie - realizing that the truck horn would attract walkers.

 

 

Seth Hoffman is credited with writing "JSS."

[lulee]

I'm just saying that perhaps Carol has been this hard all along, but she was playing CDB just like she's playing the ASZer's.  It's interesting to think about.

Interesting to think about? Maybe.

Complete retconning of what the audience was shown? Definitely.

[Raven1707]

As far as the motivations for the character's actions, TWD sometimes spells them out, other times they just let the audience draw their own conclusions.  Remember how everyone was sick of Michonne just glowering in season 3 & 4?  We had to wait quite awhile to get ANY kind of glimpse of her past or her motivations behind why she was so guarded.  We may have to wait several episodes to see what Morgan's philosophy change was caused by.  Who knows?

 

Spot on, regarding Michonne.

 

I can't even count the number of characters who were initially loathed -- to the point fans were lobbying for a satisfyingly gruesome death -- but hung around long enough to be redeemed and, later, were genuinely mourned when they eventually bit the dust.

[Ocean Chick]

Initially I liked Lilly FAR more than Tara.  I couldn't wait for boastful, incompetent Tara to die a gruesome death.  Now I would mourn for her - she's added a lot to the show.  Eugene as well, even though he's still pretty useless.  And I miss Bob, though I wanted to kick him to the curb at first.  I didn't like Michonne either at first - I was always screaming at my tv, "Use your WORDS, Michonne!  Speak up like a grown-ass woman!!!"  Now I really like her.  So, yeah, I can forgive red-shirt Carol a bad intro, even though I was intrigued with her from the first.

[Boofish]

The only characters I liked immediately were Daryl, Glen, Rick, Jacqui, Morales [and his family], Morgan, Tyrese, Sasha, Otis, Aaron, Noah, Eric, Michonne

 

Tolerated - Shane, T-Dog, Carol and Andrea (until Season 2), Abraham, Rosita, Eugene, Tara, Jim

 

Go away and SOON - Lori, Amy, Dale, Herschel (changed mind after Season 2), Beth, Maggie (changed mind eventually), Carl (changed mind)

[ghoulina]

When I say "photo," you say "recap:"

Photo
______

Photo
______

Photo Recap!

Much funnier (to me) than last week. The AD reference killed me!

 

See, and I found last week's funnier. But this one was still good. I loved Spencer's, "This is nothing like Call of Duty" - because I seriously imagine that's what they think the ZA is. A video game. 

 

 

Also, when Judith told Carl "roll me further, bitch", did anyone else get shades of Jesse Pinkman being released from the hospital?

[AngelaHunter]

The only person I kind of liked from Season 1 was Glenn. Couldn't stand anyone else, which is probably why I stopped watching at the beginning of Season 2.

[nodorothyparker]

The writing for female characters and inherent misogyny even in male characters we were supposed to see as good guys were so off the charts terrible in the first two seasons that I can't hold much against the women who came out of them.  

 

In the same episode Sophia disappeared and Lori held Carol back from doing anything (Because lets face it, at that point she didn't even know how to use a gun and probably didn't have the foggiest idea how to track.), we got to watch Shane and Dale talk down to Andrea like an errant child for having the audacity to want to be armed to protect herself.  This is the season that grown adult Andrea was initially deemed less competent to carry than the male child who never stayed where he was supposed to.  Save Andrea's one trip out with Shane that resulted in unfortunate car sex, none of the women ever participated in any search effort beyond one useless trek through the woods with Daryl as an impatient minder.  They spent the rest of the time bickering about laundry.  Glenn openly speculated about the various women being on their periods for behaving what he considered irrationally.  No one came out looking well.

Edited October 23, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[ghoulina]

I'm just saying that perhaps Carol has been this hard all along, but she was playing CDB just like she's playing the ASZer's.  It's interesting to think about.

 

I would say that yes, Carol has been "hard", in a way, all along. But I don't think she was playing anyone. I think that "hardness" was inside of her, a result of years of being abused and bullied by her husband. A lot of the mechanisms she probably used to cope with Ed would work great in a ZA, she just had to find the confidence to realize they were there and to use them. I don't think she didn't chase after Sophia because she was cold. I think she was petrified with fear and used to doing what she was told. Rick (the male in charge) told her what to do, so she did it. It took her awhile to find her voice, her ability to stand on her own two feet. So I think this is just a different facet of Carol that may have been under the surface all along. 

 

I don't think she's ice cold, though. I think she genuinely cares about certain people, and I saw pain on her face when she had to put Erin down.

[Bongo Fury]

I finally got caught up reading the thread, so I can finally post.

 

Since the episode focused on Enid, I'll comment on her. Just what was her position and life in ASZ. When she showed up at the place she was in a near feral state. I'm no Dr Phil, but I think she is a textbook case of PTSD. So what did ASZ do for her? We saw her hanging out with the other teens, but otherwise on her own. When she arrived was she treated like CDB? Did she get a video interview with Deanna and then assigned a house of her own to live in? Shouldn't a child be given surrogate parents, or at least be a ward of someone who can look out for her, care for her and help her readjust to civil society? Dr Porchdick wouldn't share his toys with Denise, so shouldn't she have been doing the psychiatrist schict? Was there a more deserving patient for her than Enid? Exactly what was ASZ doing for Enid? From what we were shown, she was just kind of ... there. Were they all too busy with book club, collecting guns that no one would use and building backwards walls to help a traumatized child? Or is ASZ populated by cold, uncaring and unsupportive assholes? Or is the writing on this show as bad as ever?

 

This week we saw a tractor trailer truck crash into the backwards wall and bounce off. If next week we see the quarry herd push the wall over, I call bullshit. 

Edited October 22, 2015 by Bongo Fury

[Ohwell]

I thought the reason Dale didn't want Andrea to have a gun was because he was afraid she'd commit suicide after losing her sister.  I don't remember much about Shane and Andrea except the car sex.

[Mu Shu]

Maybe I have amnesia or I'm just dense, but I never got all the Morgan worship. He's been in, what? 3 episodes? I don't know what he ever did to make him so important. Or maybe it has something to do with his comic book character? I've never read the comics so maybe I'm missing something.

I'm there with you now.   He had a really good episode, but the character is blah, and the idea of him wandering around like that Kung Fu guy with a stick defending himself against bloodthirsty lunatics with machetes is pretty lame, IMO.   I guess we're supposed to believe he's this sage,  martial arts expert, but he just comes off as pompous and boring to me.     He is a really good actor, but I don't feel he gels with this cast.      Michonne with a katana I buy .  Rick chewing out throats I buy.   Morgan with a stick?   I don't buy.  

[SharonH58]

Carol's "tough love" towards Sam is a little over the top for me.  Give the kid a break.  I agree with other's that Ron is mostly teenage angst and that he (and the others) still don't get the dangers yet.  I think he didn't go stay with Carl because he was worried about his mom and brother.    Morgan should have realized that the wolves didn't deserve any mercy after he saw the zombie factory he saved Daryl and Aaron from.   Carol was wonderful, I love how she is able to quickly know what to do and how to do it stealthy.   I also loved how Maggie, Rosita and Aaron fought.   Rick - if he had started insisting the people be trained as soon as they got there instead of trying to take over and go crazy in the street then maybe those people could have protected themselves.  Last episode his training consisted of letting zombies attack the people who were clueless and expecting them to "step up".    My love for Rick hasn't returned.     Enid is so a wolf spy.  I think the is why she left,  and now she will be free to 'return' if necessary. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I love it when we get deep

 

That's what she said.

 

 

... and there's the door that I'll see myself to & through.

[link417]

When I say "photo," you say "recap:"

Photo

______

Photo

______

Photo Recap!

Much funnier (to me) than last week. The AD reference killed me!

LMAO, absolutely d-e-d at the Fire Nation shoutout and the knife-wielding Jehovah's Witness.

[morgankobi]

That's what she said.

 

 

... and there's the door that I'll see myself to & through.

 

 

 

Full disclosure: I had that quote selected and copied to make that joke as well, but I chickened out. I will follow you through that door, Rarely!

[ghoulina]

I thought the reason Dale didn't want Andrea to have a gun was because he was afraid she'd commit suicide after losing her sister.  I don't remember much about Shane and Andrea except the car sex.

 

I agree, that is why Dale didn't want her to have a gun. Still, it was her gun and as much as I couldn't stand Andrea, Dale's interfering was equally as annoying. As far as Shane, I think he just wanted to make sure everyone who didn't have experience with a gun learned the proper way to use one before they walked around packing heat all day. Shane, Rick, Daryl - they all had experience with guns. Andrea, IIRC, had been given that gun before the trip, but had never really used it. Jimmy, also, had little to no experience, and Shane also insisted that HE attend "classes" before going out with a gun. I didn't really see anything sexist about it. IMO, Andrea ended up being quite capable, but her major downfall was her constant desire to always prove herself. Daryl got shot because she wanted to prove she was just as good as the guys. 

 

 

 

I rewatched last night and I'm convinced that the reason Ron didn't want a haircut is because he's trying to compete with Shaggy Carl. 

[SharonH58]

The new doctor lady annoyed me.

Since Enid has been at in town for a few months and I'm assuming her turtle eating days were maybe a month or two on her own, that leads me to believe she was with her parents surviving for a couple of years. They had to have acquired some pretty good skills. I don't think they were incompetent as is the general consensus, a momentary lapse in judgement? Over confident? Mentally exhausted? Whatever it was they taught Enid enough that she is still here and up to par with Carl.

Enid said on Talking Dead it had only been a week or two which I think was misinformation.  Someone suggested Enid locked the car doors on her parents which is an interesting idea.  I think she is in league with the Wolves as I think this makes the story more interesting!

[JackONeill]

Ghoulina- Who the hell is JImmy? Was he one of Herschel's clan, the one that got eaten in the motorhome?

[ghoulina]

Ghoulina- Who the hell is JImmy? Was he one of Herschel's clan, the one that got eaten in the motorhome?

 

Haha, yes. He was Beth's little boyfriend and Hershel's farmhand. He wanted to go out looking for Sophia, but Shane insisted he take lessons from him if he was going to carry a gun. 

[RainOnToosdays]

I agree, that is why Dale didn't want her to have a gun. Still, it was her gun and as much as I couldn't stand Andrea, Dale's interfering was equally as annoying. As far as Shane, I think he just wanted to make sure everyone who didn't have experience with a gun learned the proper way to use one before they walked around packing heat all day. Shane, Rick, Daryl - they all had experience with guns. Andrea, IIRC, had been given that gun before the trip, but had never really used it. Jimmy, also, had little to no experience, and Shane also insisted that HE attend "classes" before going out with a gun. I didn't really see anything sexist about it. IMO, Andrea ended up being quite capable, but her major downfall was her constant desire to always prove herself. Daryl got shot because she wanted to prove she was just as good as the guys.  

 

The writing for female characters and inherent misogyny even in male characters we were supposed to see as good guys were so off the charts terrible in the first two seasons that I can't hold much against the women who came out of them.  

 

In the same episode Sophia disappeared and Lori held Carol back from doing anything (Because lets face it, at that point she didn't even know how to use a gun and probably didn't have the foggiest idea how to track.), we got to watch Shane and Dale talk down to Andrea like an errant child for having the audacity to want to be armed to protect herself.  This is the season that grown adult Andrea was initially deemed less competent to carry than the male child who never stayed where he was supposed to.  Save Andrea's one trip out with Shane that resulted in unfortunate car sex, none of the women ever participated in any search effort beyond one useless trek through the woods with Daryl as an impatient minder.  They spent the rest of the time bickering about laundry.  Glenn openly speculated about the various women being on their periods for behaving what he considered irrationally.  No one came out looking well.

 

IIRC, when the show started we only had three female characters of any note - Lori, Carol, and Andrea. Lori and Carol were married housewives, used to and accepting of traditional gender roles. Andrea on the other hand was a single career woman. It's understandable to me then that she was not willing to stand by as a 'little woman while the men did all the heavy lifting so to speak, as Lori and Carol did. Centuries of tradition and gender stereotyping don't immediately fall away just because it's the apocalypse. It takes time for the women to realize their strengths and break from expectations just as it takes time for the men to realize and accept it. As a woman in such situation you DO have to prove yourself, and you have to be pushy just to get the opportunities to do so. If you're not actively fighting for an equal place at the table you're not going to get it. 

It's telling that on one hand there is all this contempt for Lori and Carol for not doing enough while at the same time there is much hate for Andrea for trying to do more. Just as in real life, it's a catch-22 for women. Scorned for sticking to old fashioned gender roles, or disliked and viewed as bitchy, pushy, & out-of-line for trying to rise above. 

 

I liked Andrea right up until, as Michonne said, she gave up their friendship for a warm bed. I liked her wanting to learn to shoot, I liked her wanting to do guard duty instead of housework, I liked her going with the men on the truck to collect & dispose of the bodies, I loved her telling off Lori, I liked her no-nonsense approach to dealing with suicidal Beth (Current-day Carol would have handled it the same way - he beat you he's dead get over it), I liked that she was always trying to prove herself, and I appreciate the catch-22 her non-traditional behavior put her in with both the men and the women. Andrea was like a pioneer of the post-apocalyptic womens' rights movement. ;)

[Boofish]

Full disclosure: I had that quote selected and copied to make that joke as well, but I chickened out. I will follow you through that door, Rarely!

Well whenever anyone says anything remotely sexual my boyfriend and I (in unison mind you) say "title of our sex tape" & then high 5 each other. Yeah we are that couple so the "that's what she said" got a good 3 minute guffaw from me. Please leave the door open I'm right behind you

 

I did not like Andrea, Dale or Shane but that day in the woods they gave Lori a gun and for some reason I was just as annoyed as Andrea.

 

When Rick got to Alexandria there was a strict no gun policy so how was he supposed to teach people how to use one?

[JackONeill]

Whatever happened to the girl that Abraham took a liking to last season? They were working with the heavy machinery and some Walkers attacked. She was trapped, and one of the idiots from Alex. was going to leave her, but Abe saved the day. What happened to her?

[Captain Asshat]

Yeah it was weird they let themselves get bogged down in fuses when they should be running. 

Actually, I think it's realistic. Some people will be so focused on solving a problem, they fail to see a larger problem. A former coworker was a skydiver. He told me one lesson an instructor taught him about fixing a parachute deployment problem vs going for the reserve. When a chute fails to deploy, as when anything doesn't work as it should, we tend to want to fix it. The instructor said, "Deploy the reserve, otherwise you'll spend the rest of your life fixing your 'chute." That's the ZA equivalent of what Enid's parents did.

[ghoulina]

It's telling that on one hand there is all this contempt for Lori and Carol for not doing enough while at the same time there is much hate for Andrea for trying to do more. Just as in real life, it's a catch-22 for women. Scorned for sticking to old fashioned gender roles, or disliked and viewed as bitchy, pushy, & out-of-line for trying to rise above.

 

I've never really condemned Lori and Carol for not doing much those first two seasons. For one, it was still relatively early on and they simply were not capable of doing certain things. And, around camp, there's lots that needs done - not just hunting, searching, protecting. So if you have no experience with a gun and you do no how to cook, makes sense to me that you would be the one making dinner for everyone. After their 6 (whatever) months living on the road between season 2-3, both women changed a lot and became more capable. And I was proud of them. Really, in a ZA everyone should know how to do everything, because you never know who might die. But I'm not going to expect people to become proficient sharpshooters overnight. 

 

My issue with Andrea wasn't that she wanted to do more, it was HOW she went about it. I think she was imagining perceived slights and trying to put herself in a position she just wasn't ready to be in. I think she ended up being very tough and capable, and she was badass when she was on her own. But I just don't think she works well with a team. She seems to always want to do what she wants to do, and never wants to listen to anyone else, even though they very well may be right. She had the same problem in Woodbury, wanting to insert herself too much too quick, before people really even knew her or what her strengths were. 

Whatever happened to the girl that Abraham took a liking to last season? They were working with the heavy machinery and some Walkers attacked. She was trapped, and one of the idiots from Alex. was going to leave her, but Abe saved the day. What happened to her?

 

I know her you're talking about. I can picture her, but I can't recall her name. Francine? I don't recall Abe taking a liking to her, if you meant that in a romantic/sexual way, though. I do think I saw her in the first episode - when Rick was asking for volunteers for the quarry job. 

[Ohwell]

I agree, that is why Dale didn't want her to have a gun. Still, it was her gun and as much as I couldn't stand Andrea, Dale's interfering was equally as annoying.

 

Yes, it was her gun but in that particular situation I think that was irrelevant.  And I agree that Dale was annoying but I could see his point in trying to get her to rethink ending her life.  I'd like to think that there would be some annoying person who could prevent my loved one from committing suicide--whether it was his/her gun or not.

[JackONeill]

I thought she and/or Abe were making "eyes" at one another, so I was hoping that Rosita could then "move out" from under Abraham's shadow. Then we could see more of Rosita. I'd like to learn her backstory. She strikes me as being tough and no-nonsense, but probably also has something else going on like Michonne did.  I always get attached to the characters that are so far down the pecking order, that sometimes they don't even have names.

[lulee]

Alexandria has been and probably will continue to be a bit like the plane survivors on Lost: aside from the main characters, they're named when it suits the plot and the might recede into the background or appear out of nowhere (new psychiatrist character) as story dictates.

[nodorothyparker]

Andrea was always trying to prove herself because she was always being treated like a child in a snit.  Go back and watch the conversation in the season two premier.  Shane and Dale are basically browbeating her while Rick and Glenn stand idly by watching.  It was humiliating.  No wonder Carol and Lori stuck to their laundry.  And of course the writing supported this by making her so inept that she would accidentally shoot fan favorite Daryl after nearly getting eaten in the woods in a scene straight out of a cheap horror movie because she deemed too fragile to be allowed her own weapon.  Dale, by the way, would later go on to admit that treating her that way was wrong and apologize for it.

 

There's a reason why I almost didn't come back for season 3 and this kind of stuff was why.  

[Ocean Chick]

Yeah, that was Francine, and she's still alive.  I saw her at the wall building for the Walker Parade.  And I didn't see anything romantic between her and Abe.  I just saw Abe as full of contempt for the others for leaving her for dead.  She'll probably be dead soon though, now that the walkers have gone rogue.

[Constantinople]

My main problem with that whole scenario is I guess we don't know what happened before that scene - ie, were Enid's parents already walker killing Bosses by that time, so they weren't worried a couple of them there were just some feet away? - but they seemed very nonchalant about the approaching ravenous zombies before they got ambushed by the ones from behind.  Keep trying to find the manual or pushing random things inside the vehicle to get it started and running - or - maybe deal with the fact that hungry zombies are closing in, and no immediate safe escape route available.  I know where my priorities would lie, in that scenario, personally.

 

Yeah it was weird they let themselves get bogged down in fuses when they should be running.

 

Actually, I think it's realistic. Some people will be so focused on solving a problem, they fail to see a larger problem. A former coworker was a skydiver. He told me one lesson an instructor taught him about fixing a parachute deployment problem vs going for the reserve. When a chute fails to deploy, as when anything doesn't work as it should, we tend to want to fix it. The instructor said, "Deploy the reserve, otherwise you'll spend the rest of your life fixing your 'chute." That's the ZA equivalent of what Enid's parents did.

Sadly, it's all too realistic, not that I've ever been skydiving.  See Eastern Airlines Flight 401

 

Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 was a Lockheed L-1011-1 Tristar jet that crashed into the Florida Everglades at 11:42 pm December 29, 1972, causing 101 fatalities (99 initial crash fatalities, two died shortly afterward). The Captain, along with one of 2 flight crew members, two of 10 flight attendants and 97 of 163 passengers, died. There were 75 survivors. The crash occurred as a result of the entire flight crew becoming preoccupied with a burnt-out landing gear indicator light, and failing to notice the autopilot had inadvertently been disconnected. As a result, while the flight crew was distracted with the indicator problem, the aircraft gradually lost altitude and crashed.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401

Granted, that crash was in 1972, but people still die because of tunnel vision.

[editorgrrl]

Whatever happened to the girl that Abraham took a liking to last season? They were working with the heavy machinery and some Walkers attacked. She was trapped, and one of the idiots from Alex. was going to leave her, but Abe saved the day. What happened to her?

Francine works on the construction crew. She saw Rick kill Pete, attended the town meeting, and was one of the people talking with Carter in the armory. Francine helped build the wall for the zombie parade, and now she's out there doing her part of Rick's plan.

[JackONeill]

Thanks to everyone for remembering Francine. Let's all hear it for Francine. The poor girl probably won't make it past next week.

 

BTW, I'm writing a letter to TPTB asking that the characters, especially new ones, wear name tags.

 

BTW#2 -- I think they screwed up by not giving Eugene some smarts. He could have medical book knowledge (much like the psychologist), and still make a contribution. Plus, as we've talked about, they had him "forget" that he had been a hero -- with a gun -- when he saved Tara. So, what the hell are they going to do with Eugene.

 

We could replace Eugene with Francine. Hmmmmmm.

[JBody]

99.9% of Mothers would have elbowed Olive Oil in the face and ran after their kid.  99.9% of Mothers would have been searching for said kid instead of doing laundry and bitching about how other people weren't finding her kid.  She was a horrible Mother, and Judith is lucky to break the Carol Curse (so far).

 

I'm just saying that perhaps Carol has been this hard all along, but she was playing CDB just like she's playing the ASZer's.  It's interesting to think about.

 

Not really a diehard Carol fan but I agree that it is interesting to think that this was in her, all along.  However, when I was watching S2 as it unfolded I just assumed that her not searching for Sophia came down to the fact that she appeared to be a very passive person.  I couldn't relate, really, because had it been my child, sure as shit I would've torn heaven and earth apart looking for her, walkers be damned (and I'm a weakling, and scaredy-cat, besides).  Her passivity was further illustrated to me during the "group debates" (remember Honest Trailers or whatever it was called... Watch TWD and watch exciting group debates!  YAY)  on Randall's destiny and she simply said leave me out of it, you all decide.  Not owning anything, not being a grown up adult, you know?  And she had the nerve to bitch at Daryl about Rick being a shitty leader in Beside the Dying Fire.  So, a long-winded way to say I didn't consider her cold, necessarily, just passive, whiney, and wanting all the other adults to make the decisions for her (an extremely passive position, and possibly linked to her role as a DV victim -- not sure, not an expert).

 

As for this episode, while I appreciated what she did, I felt she was veering into Mary Sue territory, as mentioned up thread, a land where her soul mate Daryl  (Gary Sue) resides, and he is really not interesting now. 

[FierceCritter]

Carol - I don't have a problem with making her an Uber-Rambo character. Because it's fictional TV. And I LIKE having larger-than-life characters and I'm all kinds of happy if a favorite character is NOT written into storylines that cut them down a notch. Part of this is because I was a big X-Men comics fan for a while and I love comic book characters in general. And TWD originated as a comic. So having a "super-hero" character or two stay super is a-ok with me.

I don't have a problem if characters occasionally go through a challenge that tests their character/abilities/whatever. The fun, excitement and anticipation is in hoping they come through and go back to kicking ass. This is why I absolutely love Scarol, and cheered rather than groused when Rick told the handcuffed cop he just hit, "Shut up" and shot him dead. I myself WANT Rick to be ruthless to a pretty major degree when it comes to doing what he has to do to protect himself and his extended family. I may have thought it wasn't wise for Carol to shoot the tied-up Wolf, because intelligence could have been gathered through a nice Daryl-heavy interrogation and she blew that chance. But I smiled in that that was true to her character. "Take no prisoners, they dared threaten me/us, they die. I've had enough of this shit."

On the topic of Andrea. I absolutely despised her character. Upon re-watch via Netflix, I sat through the massive annoyance of her character the first time. And found her JUST as unbearably irritating as I did the first time through. On the second re-watch, I spared myself and skipped a lot of her scenes.

I love strong female characters. Ripley from Alien. Xena. Wonder Woman. Catwoman. I didn't like things about Lori, but I didn't hate her the way a lot of people did. In her case, it came down to the actress and writing I think. In one scene, she was all about going along with Rick happily. In the next, she was haranguing him for his decisions. WTF? She really WAS given a lot of scenes where she was haranguing SOMEONE. But I think she was given short-shrift for making some of the same kinds of tough decisions and taking similar actions that Rick did, but got branded a whiny harpy whereas he was viewed as a hero. I think it also doesn't help that people have a sub-conscious dislike of her for having been screwing around with Shane while Rick was still alive. As SOON as Rick showed up, she dropped Shane like a hot rock. Yeah, sucks for Shane. But even though she had been having marital difficulties with Rick pre-ZA (which in one flashback scene she admitted to probably being responsible for, and I give her credit for that admission), she went right back to sticking to her vows the instant she realized her husband was still alive, and I never saw her waver from that.

Additionally, Lori was the ONLY character directly responsible for someone besides herself - her son. She had to keep an eye on him at the same time she was trying to be involved with taking care of her share of responsibilities to CDB. There's added stress and worry there. Hell, she lets him go off with Rick and Shane and he gets freaking SHOT. I can have some sympathy that she might be a little frazzled and prone to losing it a little here and there. (I don't count Carol/Sophia because the dynamic was different and their time together was so short.)

Which leads me back to Andrea. I would have been right there with her as far as wanting to be one of the people with a gun in hand protecting the camp rather than beating clothes on wet rocks. But rather than rolling my eyes, standing with fist on jutted-out-hip and sucking my front teeth, I would have been more low-key and firm rather than pouty and petulant. Honest to God, if I had to see one more scene with her doing that annoyed hip-shift or head-wagging strut, I would have thrown my remote through my TV screen. I absolutely hated the way that actress portrayed her. I did find Lori very unlikable. But she gained major points with me when she handed Andrea her gun and told her "here, shut the fuck up about it already."

And I could have seen Andrea in a better light if she hadn't initially opted for throwing in the towel. I wouldn't trust her with a gun, either. LOTS of Dale-hate going around. But I loved his character. I loved how he loved Andrea enough to not want her to give up and be gone. All he wanted was for her to be ok. She was like a daughter to him. Did he get over-protective? CAN you get over-protective when someone has said, "I'm fine with just dying?" Carl may have been an adolescent with an understandable tendency toward misbehaving. But he had never opted to off himself. SO yeah, I'd give him a gun whereas I'd be much more reluctant to hand one to Andrea.

I have observed that male characters who show signs of softness (Tyreese, Morgan, Dale) are frequently scorned about as equally as strong female characters (Carol, initial Michonne, Maggie, Deanna). I've seen commentary that Michonne needed to get over herself and get conversant. But nobody says that about Daryl, who has gotten quieter than ever. Dale was viewed as a meddling do-gooder Pollyanna. Tyreese was a dynamo Hulk with a hammer on walkers, but struggled with the killing of normal humans (in particular after the heart-wrenching deaths of Mika and Lizzie, which I think gets missed in his regard). So he is viewed as neutered. Pacifist Morgan is bad Morgan. But let Maggie call the shots, Carol get Rambo-esque and Deanna make tough decisions (it would have been an unnecessary distraction for her to be in the middle of a fight she had no way of offering aid) and it's "they need to be taken down a notch."

I have less problem with characters who might be portrayed unrealistically or with confusing or questionable motivation because I do watch TWD the way I would read a comic book. So my belief is comfortably suspended. I'm not watching it for a morality lesson. I'm watching it to see zombies attack and eat people, and people fighting them and surviving. People say they don't watch it for walker attacks anymore, they watch it for character interaction. I am actually happier when the group is on the move and danger lurks around every corner. So yeah, I love it when Tyreese hammers his way out of a seemingly impossible walker engulfment, but also when he has an adorable smile on his face when charged with watching over his beloved little Judith. I loved widowed Dale who would have loved to have just had his RV parked in an electrified/septic-provided campground, but had a surrogate daughter to council and protect. I love it when Carol infiltrates and saves the day from a town of psycho cannibals or attacking marauders. I cheer when Rick tears a guy's throat out with his teeth. I dig a zen Morgan who is wicked with a walking stick. Etc.

FWIW

[JBody]

Can I say this in defense of Carol: the writers in Season 1 probably didn't know what they were going to do with most of the characters (see the length of Daryl's run).

 

All these characters (even Rick) have been, pardon the criticism, poorly sketched. Yes, good actors can rise above some things, but there are times when I get the very real sense that the actors have no idea how to play a scene because of poor writing and poor directing. Yes, it's something we all kid about, the actor who mulls what to do next in the scene, while mumbling, "What's my motivation?"

 

Well, I think there's a whole lot of "non motivation" and it's because, in my opinion, TPTB haven't quite figured out where they're heading.  (Hell, we saw that with Lost, and that was far-and--away better acted, directed, and written.) You need a Spielberg to come in and map out in his story-board way the entire season so EVERYONE is on the same page and knows what the goal is.

 

Agree with you, yet from what I've read (last year) they had this twenty-first century Gunsmoke mapped out to season 12 and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts it's further now.  One would assume that would include character motivations but TWD is famous for making its characters bend to plot requirements.  A small caveat though: scratch Spielberg and replace it with Darabont.  Say what you will but that guy was/is a mad planner and visionary and very fucking organized.

 

I have enjoyed the comments on this thread even more than the actual episode itself, to be honest.  The reviews are positively glowing for this one, and it had it's moments: smoking lady getting hacked made me jump, thanks Show!  It's been awhile.  But this whole Morgan and Carol on opposite ends of the bell curve thing -- come on.  Everything I have learned about Morgan makes me think that his ultra-life-is-precious schtick does not ring true.  He, of ALL people, KNOWS what happens when one does not kill the person/thing when one should: they always come back.  Always.  Maybe he got the point in the last few minutes when he encountered the same Wolf again.  Show better have a damned good reason as to why Morgan's attitude is so extreme.  I keep thinking back to Clear when he was telling Rick he would not be joining him and the family at the prison --

 

Rick Grimes: We found a prison. The fences can keep 'em out.

Morgan Jones: Is that where your wife died? Just go. Don't go back. Don't stop. Just get yourself some more time.

Rick Grimes: Look, I can help you. You can come back with us. You can heal.

Morgan Jones: You're taking a lot of guns, Rick. No, I'm just saying that that all is a lot of guns. Why do you need the guns, Rick? 'Cause if you got something good, that just means that someone wants to take it. And that is what is happening, right?

Rick Grimes: We're gonna win. You can be there. You can help.

Morgan Jones: You will be torn apart by teeth or bullets. You and your boy. Your people, but not me. Because I'm not gonna watch that happen again.

[DEM]

BTW#2 -- I think they screwed up by not giving Eugene some smarts. He could have medical book knowledge (much like the psychologist)

 

Denise is a psychiatrist. She went through medical school; she has an MD, but she changed her specialty from surgery to psychiatry.