S06.E02: JSS

[editorgrrl]

So, whatever happened to the apple orchard they used to make that applesauce Aaron had when he approached CDB?

In "Distance," Aaron told Rick he brought the applesauce on his recruiting drives "to show that we have apple trees nearby." (And one would assume they were harvesting and preserving food.) But he also said, "We can find a place for you to live where even when [Judith] cries, no one, nothing can hear it outside the walls." When CDB approached Alexandria, and again with Enid in this episode's flashback, there was a whole lot of noise.

I think the applesauce was scavenged, and the Alexandrians haven't put up any food. Olivia's talk of making proscuitto out of a boar's leg was purely aspirational.

I don't remember the exact conversation between Deanna and Maggie about the seed packets. Was it stated or implied that the Alexandrites hadn't planted at all?

Maggie told Deanna, "We got some panels to put up, but we don't have to wait to start growing things. There will be some sore backs and tired feet—that's how you know you've put in a hard day's work. They found crates of these at a nursery just a few miles out: tomatoes, carrots, you name it. We can plant them right here. Just need to finish the expansion, and the wall needs to go up."

"Start growing things" implies that the Alexandrians are not currently growing anything.

Edited October 21, 2015 by editorgrrl

[SoSueMe]

In "Distance," Aaron told Rick he carried the applesauce on his recruiting drives "to show that we have apple trees nearby." (And by extension people harvesting and preserving food.) But he also said, "We can find a place for you to live where even when [Judith] cries, no one, nothing can hear it outside the walls." When CDB arrived at Alexandria, and when Enid arrived in this episode's flashback, there was a whole lot of noise.

I think the applesauce was scavenged, and the Alexandrians haven't put up any food. Olivia's talk of making proscuitto out of a boar's leg was purely aspirational.

Maggie told Deanna, "We got some panels to put up, but we don't have to wait to start growing things. There will be some sore backs and tired feet—that's how you know you've put in a hard day's work. They found crates of these at a nursery just a few miles out: tomatoes, carrots, you name it. We can plant them right here. Just need to finish the expansion, and the wall needs to go up."

"Start growing things" implies that the Alexandrians are not currently growing anything.

I think that the Alexandrians smugly thought that by virtue of their solar panels and power grid they had a handle on things. Groceries? No problem, we'll shop. I think it was finally dawning on them that they needed people with a wider variety of skill sets when they started sending out Aaron and whatever other recruiters.

Edited October 21, 2015 by SoSueMe

[Boofish]

Here is the fundamental problem with the people of Alexandria - they are idiots whose luck has finally run out. 

[Bruinsfan]

Sam obviously recognizes that Carol is a loving woman underneath it all, because he keeps coming back to her. 

Or he recognizes that she bakes good cookies and would have turned Pete into gin-soaked fertilizer the first time he raised a hand in her general direction.

[CletusMusashi]

I think the applesauce was scavenged, and the Alexandrians haven't put up any food. Olivia's talk of making proscuitto out of a boar's leg was purely aspirational.

Then how are they making cola-canned ham? Pete looked like he still had both legs intact, but maybe not...

Edited October 21, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[mightysparrow]

I just want to welcome those who have expressed their dislike of Carol to the club,  I've never liked Carol from the very beginning.  I don't care for weak, passive-aggressive types and that's been Carol from the start.  The woman who wouldn't search for her own child or attend the service that her friends organized FOR HER SAKE.  Carol may be 'badass' now but she's still the same woman at heart.

 

I think Morgan 'seeing' Carol for who she really was in the premier episode was more than simply 'game recognizing game' but also the signal that there already were Wolves in Alexandria before the really stinky one arrived.  Enid, another 'butter won't melt in my mouth' person might be another.  

 

I'm not sure why Carol feels the need to keep up the Suzy Homemaker routine now that the Ricktatorship is firmly in control.  When the episode opened with those women at their coffee klatch talking about soup and that fucking pasta maker, I wondered what the fuck was wrong with everybody.  They did know that a walker herd was nearby.  Instead of smugly talking to the weak little women about celery soup in her patronizing baby voice, why wasn't Carol suggesting that these women learn how to use a gun or a knife?  The women of Alexandria might have been weak and foolish but they had taken Carol in and befriended her.  They trusted her and admired her.  Yet she didn't even consider helping them with danger so nearby.

 

I also don't buy that Carol's abusive behaviour towards Sam is because she doesn't want to 'mother' another child.  Sam has a mother, one who proved quite capable of taking care of herself and her boy when the shit hit the fan.   His father just died; he's looking for a friend.  In my opinion, that small scene was an example of how the abused often become abusers themselves. 

 

Gimple, Kirkman and co. don't hide that Carol/MMB is their favourite and it really bothered me to think that such an important character as Morgan was gong to be added to the heap of Black men, all sacrificed to Queen Carol.  But if that was the intention, Lennie James is just too fucking good for them.  I'm sure that there will be a Morgan-centric episode that will explain exactly WHY Morgan's belief in the sanctity of life is so strong and all will be forgiven.  It will probably also give tptb the best hope they have for that Emmy they're so desperate for.

[that one guy]

Watched this a couple days late because of baseball. Whoah.

I think Morgan's problem is actually that he's been a loner for so long. Ethically, it's a legit choice to not kill all the raiders when you're on your own. You're safer if they're dead, but combat is always a risk, if they're gonna go without a fight let them go. If they come after you later, deal with them then. But in a group with weaker members, he's wrong. Because Enid and Spencer and the doctor lady don't seem up to defending themselves at the moment (well, maybe Enid, we just haven't seen it), letting them live puts the rest of the group at risk. And it's not a potential risk, they've already killed a bunch of people and shown themselves to be not just worse than walkers, but worse than anyone we've met even on this show. They know where you live, they'll be back. And that one guy literally picked up Checkov's gun. You just know he's gonna kill somebody with it, probably in the fall finale.

 

So Morgan has to decide whether to join the family. I get the dilemma - before I had a kid there were basically no circumstances under which I would kill anyone. Now that I'm responsible for someone else, such circumstances can easily be imagined.

[SoSueMe]

Well, I think that for whatever reason Carol has been assigned to be the stealth commando and I'm fine with that. The town seemed to look upon the others with suspicion since they didn't fit into the genteel suburbia roles in Alexandria and Carol was able to keep her finger on the pulse of things without arousing suspicion. MM's acting is among the best in the show, imo.

[Ocean Chick]

Carol definitely doesn't want to start caring about another child, knowing the statistics of his/her survival chances in this new world.  So she tries to keep Sam at arm's length distance, all the while trying to teach him a few truths that might just save his life.  Probably too late at this point, but she'll try.  And have her heart broken again when he dies.

 

I understand why Morgan leaves bad people alive.  He's only had to look out for himself for the last couple of years.  If he lets someone go who tried to kill him, and they come back again to try a second time, he can just disarm them again.  No harm, no foul.  But it does harm the ASZers, who are not prepared to save their own lives yet.  We will definitely see those wolves he let go again.  And more people will die because of them.  Both Morgan and Carol need to learn that there is a time to kill, and a time to let live.  And during a full-on attack by unfriendlies, that is NOT the time to let live.  Or to spend time tying people up and trying to get sense out of them.  Spend that time trying to save as many good folk as possible, Morgan.

 

Poor Carol - my heart broke for her when she had to end the suffering of her friend Erin.  And at the end when she was remembering Shelley, the pasta-maker.  And then she saw the "A" stamp and knew that Sam had put it there to show that TF was now accepted as part of ASZ.  Ugh.  Heartbreak indeed.

 

Deanna showed herself to be a true politician.  "I'll just sit here in this safe truck, out of the way of danger, so that you can go save the rest of the community.  I'm too important to be put at risk.  You can die in my place so that I live to lead the people afterwards".  LOL

[FierceCritter]

Here is the fundamental problem with the people of Alexandria - they are idiots whose luck has finally run out. 

And they are LUCKY to have CDB there to help them survive, as much as possible.

[FierceCritter]

I'm not sure why Carol feels the need to keep up the Suzy Homemaker routine now that the Ricktatorship is firmly in control.  When the episode opened with those women at their coffee klatch talking about soup and that fucking pasta maker, I wondered what the fuck was wrong with everybody.  They did know that a walker herd was nearby.  Instead of smugly talking to the weak little women about celery soup in her patronizing baby voice, why wasn't Carol suggesting that these women learn how to use a gun or a knife?  The women of Alexandria might have been weak and foolish but they had taken Carol in and befriended her.  They trusted her and admired her.  Yet she didn't even consider helping them with danger so nearby.

Weren't those still in Alexandria under the impression only a dry run was going on? The rest were supposed to just be doing a run-through when the semi fell. No mention was made of word being sent back to Alexandria that they'd gone live until the horn and Morgan was sent running to warn them the walkers were on their way.

 

I generally don't give much thought to the motivations of scripted characters. But my impression is that Carol was keeping up the ruse to keep a sleeper intact just to have an "in" to keeping an eye on what the Alexandrian's are thinking and doing as things progress.

[Boofish]

The way I see it Carol did not owe them anything because they befriended her. It was their decision to remove all the guns and knives. Walls or no walls they knew the danger that lurked outside their door because they have left plenty of their "friends" alone out there to die. Those people had their heads buried in sand and I don't think it was Carol's responsibility to dig it out. When danger came knocking on their door she did the same thing Morgan, Rosita, Maggie and Aaron did - risked her life to save them. None of them were out there helping. Who in the entire bowels of hell hides in the closet in a room full of guns and don't at least take one with them? Her and Zoolander were in the best positions to stop some of the carnage and they chose to do what the ASZhats always do - NOTHING. The same people who were Mrs. PD friends and what did they do to help her? Bury their head in the sand. They lucky Carol didn't take Carl and Judith and hide like they did. I think her experience with Sophia taught her a very valuable lessons. Victims die, fighters survive. I understand PD III is hurting but I'm not sure how the responsibility for his therapy falls on Carol. I guess it's because he has been abused and beaten for months and she and her friends were the only people willing to help him? Because their so called other friends did nothing. CDB would have to eat Judith for dinner to get me to turn on them and even then I would have to think about it and try and see things from their perspective.

[FierceCritter]

As far asiago, this is one of the best TWD episodes I camembert. A really, really gouda, bleu ribbon winner.

But does anyone really believe there are boursin those woods from which they can make prosciutto?

[Dr.Jacoby]

When Morgan said that he learned his stick-fu from a cheese maker, all I could think of was the satire of the Sermon on the Mount in Monty Python's The Life of Brian. "Blessed are the cheese makers." Ha! Now I wish the Pythons were still together because they'd do one hella funny take-off of The Walking Dead.

That's all I could think of too- I can't imagine why they'd choose something as unlikely as a'cheesemaker'unless it was a python reference so I'm hoping it was, heh. It certainly took me out of the scene.

Also I was amazed that Carl managed to (more or less) stay in the house- that's character development!

Edited October 21, 2015 by Dr.Jacoby

[JackONeill]

I agree, as do most of us, that the Alexandrites are worthless. But if I'm not mistaken (I'm not one to rewatch the episode, so I might be wrong) there were a few no-names (literally "redshirts" thanks to the blood) shown trying to fight the Wolves when they came in. I think there were one or two guys who held their ground (but not for long). Am I wrong?  (if I'm not, then that means that not all the people in town (except for CDB and Aaron) were cowering in closets.

 

Plus, things happened so fast, I don't think anyone could really know what was happening for the first few minutes of the assault. This wasn't a bunch of Walkers ambling along for a stroll. These were merciless mercenaries intent on causing the most amount of damage.

[AngelaHunter]

such an important character as Morgan

 

Maybe I have amnesia or I'm just dense, but I never got all the Morgan worship. He's been in, what? 3 episodes? I don't know what he ever did to make him so important. Or maybe it has something to do with his comic book character? I've never read the comics so maybe I'm missing something.

[CletusMusashi]

Crazy or not, Morgan's fortification of that town he was holed up in was pretty great.

And I loved him in the Season 5 finale. Very cool, very skilled at surviving and defending himself, and if a wandering loner wants to just beat up a couple of guys and leave them to (possibly) grow into someone better, I'm not particularly bothered by that.

But what we saw this week was war. On the battlefield, you play for realsies. Hit to kill, and if you do miss a few kills, maybe they're at least crippled or otherwise out of the fight. Was he more useful than most of the ASZhats? Yes. Of course. But that's putting the bar pretty low.

Plus, I'm still annoyed with him for saving FPP. Morgan doesn't even know the rules! Black man enters, black man dies. And if it's not the very-deserving bearer of the Shroud of Ur-ine, that means it's going to have to be either Heath, who I really like thus far, or Morgan, who I still like far more than Father Pee Pants and could easily be talked into being a real fan of again, if he'd just stop trying to tell psychotic gangs who are in mid-massacre to go to "time out."

Edited October 21, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[morgankobi]

Maybe I have amnesia or I'm just dense, but I never got all the Morgan worship. He's been in, what? 3 episodes? I don't know what he ever did to make him so important. Or maybe it has something to do with his comic book character? I've never read the comics so maybe I'm missing something.

I know a little of it is residual love from his stint on Jericho.

 

Plus, I think that all the times Rick attempted to talk to him on the CB in that first season kept him more present even though he wasn't actually there.

Edited October 21, 2015 by morgankobi

[editorgrrl]

I think the applesauce was scavenged, and the Alexandrians haven't put up any food. Olivia's talk of making proscuitto out of a boar's leg was purely aspirational.

Then how are they making cola-canned ham? Pete looked like he still had both legs intact, but maybe not...

Carol's twist was using canned ham, which Heath, Scott, and Annie could've scavenged. Since there were plenty of beverages at that party, I assume cola is available. And you could omit the brown sugar—or add applesauce: http://www.coca-colacompany.com/food/coca-cola-ham-recipe/

[CletusMusashi]

 I love it! The first sentence in that link:

 

This sweet take on a holiday classic was submitted by Carol Johnson of Turtle Lake, Wisconsin.

 

Throw in a few things about scissors, Hollywood faux-Buddhism, and some gratuitous over-use of the letter W...

and that would be pretty much cover this whole episode!

Edited October 21, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[mightysparrow]

Plus, I'm still annoyed with him for saving FPP. Morgan doesn't even know the rules! Black man enters, black man dies. And if it's not the very-deserving bearer of the Shroud of Ur-ine, that means it's going to have to be either Heath, who I really like thus far, or Morgan, who I still like far more than Father Pee Pants and could easily be talked into being a real fan of again, if he'd just stop trying to tell psychotic gangs who are in mid-massacre to go to "time out."

 

One would think that Morgan would even more willing to follow the 'One in, One out' TWD Black Man Rule, since association with Carol shortens a Black Man's life span even more.

 

I can't hate on Father Gabriel, first because he's an endangered species and secondly because it seems he's trying to turn shit around.  He DID volunteer to help out, even though Rick shut that down with a quickness.  And he asked Carl for fighting lessons which put him miles ahead of lots of folks...I'm looking at you Eugene.

 

I think that if people can find it in their hearts to forgive Tara, who rode up to the prison with the Governor and stood by while he cut Hershel's head off or Eugene, who let other people die to save his lying sorry ass, than surely a little sympathy can be spared for the padre.  Come on, he's a Black man; he's not long for this world anyway.

[ghoulina]

I think Morgan's problem is actually that he's been a loner for so long. Ethically, it's a legit choice to not kill all the raiders when you're on your own. You're safer if they're dead, but combat is always a risk, if they're gonna go without a fight let them go. If they come after you later, deal with them then. But in a group with weaker members, he's wrong.

 

Abso-freakin-lutely. When he's on his own, he can make what ever choices sit right with him. When you're part of a group, you have to consider how your choices affect them. I am willing to give him a pass if he soon figures out that it's not all black and white. There are times when his philosophy works and times when it doesn't. 

 

I'm not sure why Carol feels the need to keep up the Suzy Homemaker routine now that the Ricktatorship is firmly in control.

 

Maybe because it's not entirely an act. Even though Carol has changed from the woman who married Ed, maybe part of her misses whipping up something new in the kitchen and talking about recipes with her friends. As hard as she could be, I felt like she did genuinely care about those women. 

 

Plus, I think that all the times Rick attempted to talk to him on the CB in that first season kept him more present even though he wasn't actually there.

 

Yes, a lot of it, for me, was the connection between Rick and Morgan. He saved Rick's life, he gave him lessons in Zombie killing 101. They meant something to each other and I always wished Morgan and Duane had left with Rick. Plus, Lennie James is just fucking brilliant onscreen. Up until last season he was only in 2 episodes, and in those 2 episodes he gave much more compelling moments than some of the actors who were on this show for years (Emily Kinney, I'm looking at you). I am very excited he's made it to the credits, because I want to see just what is going on with ol Morgan. 

 

I think that if people can find it in their hearts to forgive Tara, who rode up to the prison with the Governor and stood by while he cut Hershel's head off or Eugene, who let other people die to save his lying sorry ass, than surely a little sympathy can be spared for the padre.

 

I think comparing Eugene and FPP might be fair, but I would never compare Gabriel to Tara. Tara had no idea what was going on. The Guv conned ALL of his people into believe the people at the prison were evil and dangerous to have around. But she never fired a shot. She saw what was going on and did not participate. Did she try to stop them? Okay, no. But really, what could she have done? She would have just gotten herself killed right along with them. But almost as soon as it was over she redeemed herself, IMO, but helping Glenn out the way she did. Tara needed no redeeming in my eyes, but she certainly proved herself to CDB quickly. 

 

This is very different from Eugene and Gabriel, how have yet to really do anything. I know FPP is trying, but I also understand why the others are hesitant to let him. Eugene....at least he's funny. And self aware. I have hope for him. 

[JackONeill]

Eugene's the one who saved Tara after that mission that went horribly awry last season. He managed to shoot pretty well, if I remember correctly. Did he want to do it? No. But he did, and he did to save Tara. So, I think Eugene redeemed himself.

 

But having said that, I don't know why we seem to be back to square one with Eugene. It's like everyone, including him, forgot that he'd done that. I don't expect him to be Rick or Daryl -- no way -- but I was a little disappointed that he didn't pick up a gun and at least offer to protect the doctor. That way he could stay inside, which I'm sure would have pleased him, without really putting himself at risk, but he would have "seemed" to be a hero. Which I think is his role.

 

He doesn't want to be, but he can be, a hero just not as flamboyantly as the others.

Edited October 21, 2015 by JackONeill

[ghoulina]

But having said that, I don't know why we seem to be back to square one with Eugene. It's like everyone, including him, forgot that he'd done that.

 

Yes, that's what my issue is as well. I was proud of him last season when he finally stepped up. But now he's like, "Okay, I did one brave, selfless thing. Back to being Eugene". No. NO! You have to keep making progress. Damnit, Eugene. 

[minamurray78]

Weren't those still in Alexandria under the impression only a dry run was going on? The rest were supposed to just be doing a run-through when the semi fell. No mention was made of word being sent back to Alexandria that they'd gone live until the horn and Morgan was sent running to warn them the walkers were on their way.

 

 

Actually, Rick sent Morgan back to Alexandria to tell them that the dry run was for real after they almost lose control of the herd, when Carter got his face bitten. By the time the horn goes off, Morgan was well on his way back to town.

[Caelicola]

Eugene is far from my favorite character, but to be fair there is a difference between facing some noisy, brainless walkers and facing a large group of absolutely savage, sentient humans who are hacking people to pieces. He just got his floaties off, if he were to immediately jump in the deep end of the pool he'd drown in a minute.

[Ocean Chick]

Maybe because it's not entirely an act. Even though Carol has changed from the woman who married Ed, maybe part of her misses whipping up something new in the kitchen and talking about recipes with her friends. As hard as she could be, I felt like she did genuinely care about those women.

 

 

This!  Absolutely.  Carol's not had any close female friends since Lori and Andrea got killed off, that we've been shown.  I'm sure she was enjoying just being one of "the gals", laughing and gossiping and trading recipes, if only for a moment.  And seeing her reaction to Erin and Shelley's deaths, she's going to miss them, now that they dead of wolves.  Those dad-gum unfair wolves.  I feel like she and Olivia could become good friends, given half a moment of quite downtime.

[FierceCritter]

Actually, Rick sent Morgan back to Alexandria to tell them that the dry run was for real after they almost lose control of the herd, when Carter got his face bitten. By the time the horn goes off, Morgan was well on his way back to town.

Ok. So pretty much just confirms my assertion that those still in Alexandria were entitled to their blaise' demeanors prior to Morgan showing up (once the Wolf attack was already in progress), because they didn't know the Walker Walkies was actually happening.

Edited October 21, 2015 by FierceCritter

[maystone]

Maybe Eugene's cowardice is more situational than anything. He rescued Tara because he cared for her and because no one else was available to do it: Glenn and Noah had their hands full dealing with the ASZhats.  He couldn't fall back on his usual "let someone else handle this" schtick - not this time. During the wolf attack, though, there were fighters from his group available, so he defaulted to cowardice.

 

I have hope for him. He has come a long way, and I think that Tara is responsible for a lot of that. She's the one most inclined to matter-of-factly call him on his bs, and she's the one who handed him a knife and told him he really needed to start helping with the killing. And he did! There's hope for Mullet Man, I think.

[Bruinsfan]

And it's not a potential risk, they've already killed a bunch of people and shown themselves to be not just worse than walkers, but worse than anyone we've met even on this show.

I think they're the most dangerous group that we've seen so far, what with their Reaver-like nihilistic behavior and hobby of creating mass walker booby traps. But the people at Terminus had a room full of abandoned children's toys indicating the contents of their seasonal menu, so barring zombie Hitler showing up I'd give them the gold medal for most horrible/evil antagonists.

[Timetoread]

So much to reply to!!  I love it when we get deep.

I disagree that Carol isn't motivated by protection of others.  When she was banished, she was solemnly setting about survival, but the second she saw a pillar of smoke coming from the prison, she couldn't get there fast enough.  She immediately purposed herself with protecting Lizzie, Mika, and Judith.  They went the Terminus route in order to hopefully find the others and bring Judith back to her family.  She attacked Terminus to save the others.  Perhaps she also had something to prove to herself, or she wanted to atone for what she did at the prison, but I believe she altruistically was motivated to save her innocent group from people like Martin.  There was no way she was going to let those cretins kill the chick with the sword and the kid with the hat.

Rick and Tyrese made their peace and wanted to keep her with them, but she was going to leave again on her own when she and Daryl saw the Grady Hospital car.  Daryl sort of forcing her demand he save Noah was the beginning of her way back to ANY kind of normalcy.  The episode Consumed revealed her mindset that she felt like her "self" had been burned away, and she doesn't know who she is right now.

In Alexandria, I think she's had the same one track as Rick.  Nothing anyone says or does matters because ASZ is a sitting duck and catastrophe is probably around the corner.  I think, like Rick, if Alexandria was secured properly, she'd have other things to think about.  Maybe she can't be integrated anymore, maybe she can.  But without security it doesn't matter.  I think some of the tears she shed at the end of the Wolf battle were for the fact that things could not be the way the ASZers wanted them to be.  She still grieves normal life, too.  She just can't afford to think about it.

 

Also, as far as some people's horror over how she spoke to Sam, I think that's a 21st century first world viewpoint. It made me think of being on wagon train heading west (westerns again), when people died of disease or got killed in attacks, and you had to bury them in the road and keep going.  Settlers were tough, not sentimental.  What are they now, but settlers again?

 

I feel you are misunderstanding me.  Let me define (not the words, but my usage of them):  SELFISH means that one only thinks of self,  and puts self before others (I would define FPP and Eugene as selfish men, whose self first attitude cost the lives of others).  SELF MOTIVATED means that the main thing that drives you is your feelings about yourself.  These feelings aren't necessarily positive and they shape your decision making and point of view.  ALTRUISTIC means that you think ONLY of others and put all others before self.  I don't think Carol, or Morgan for that matter, are selfish but I think they self motivated.  Carol is in a long arc of trying to figure out who to be but she's lost in a hole of also trying to figure out who she will allow herself to be.  I don't think that she is hardened at all, I think she still feels everything and that she still feels like she is being beat up.  It's weird and I hope this statement makes sense but she is fighting herself and in doing so ends up getting hit all the time.  I do believe she loves the people of CDB very much and would certainly die and kill on their behalf.  But the person she pretends to be, that she is turning herself into, isn't on their behalf, they aren't asking that of her - that is motivation that is coming from herSELF.

 

There are several scenes that speak, at least to me, about the reality inside of Carol: the scene with Mika in which she explains how you have to kill or be killed in this world, and Mika tells her that it is not so; the scene in which Tyrese forgives her; the whole episode with Rick when he banishes her after her refusal to see that preemptive murder is a bridge too far; and how much it seemed to mean to her when he thanked her and took her back; her demeanor after Terminus in trying to run away; the Suzie Homemaker fakery that hides contempt for the people in Alexandria; the way she talked about and mistrusted Michonne for stopping Rick; the way she talked down to Rick "Oh Sunshine, you can't have both."; the way she pushed up on Pete with a knife (it was like she wanted one last showdown with Ed to show him how much she'd changed, but it was stupid because Pete was a very large and very dangerous man and she luckily caught him in the calm before his murderous storm that he was saving up for Rick) and finally the way she talks to Sam.  That is not frontier woman, it is transferrence.  When she looks at Sam, she sees Sophia - innocent and sweet with a father who's a brute and a mother who hasn't yet found the strength to get away from him.  To this day she believes that it was Sophia's sweetness that got her killed.  If Sophia had been tougher - in the same way Carl is now tough - she'd still be alive.  Again, I see a parallel with Morgan - two people who have not gotten over (and lets' face it, will NEVER get over) losing their only child.  Carol has no idea who to be, or what to think, or how to feel - and she won't let herself feel all the things she should - as if that in and of itself would kill her.  So she takes chances she shouldn't, makes decisions she shouldn't - playing chicken with her own soul but in the end suffers for all of it.  And her hatred for the Alexandrians is really self-hatred.  She has contempt for them because they are exactly who she used to be and fundamentally she hates who she used to be.  That person got beat up.  That person couldn't find the strength to leave.  That person couldn't fight for herself.  That person couldn't save her child.  That person was not tough.  Really I think the lesson she needs to learn is that that person was okay, and deserving, and normal and worth saving. This is why I hope that they stop writing the Alexandrians as idiots, that these people can grow and ultimately adjust so that we can connect to Carol growing and ultimately adjusting.  I find it interesting that I see all of that in a person I don't like.  But I do and I really hope that I am seeing it right and not that they are making Carol into a Warrior Queen, just because.  I would love for her story to be about healing in the apocalypse.

 

 

The only thing is, wasn't Terminus in GA? And Alexandria is in VA? Unless they were stalking CDB up the coast...

 

You're right.  And like one poster said above, the A was written by Sam.  It was a fun thought though!

[Ocean Chick]

And her hatred for the Alexandrians is really self-hatred.  She has contempt for them because they are exactly who she used to be and fundamentally she hates who she used to be.

 

 

So you think she had nothing but hatred and contempt towards Shelley?  Erin?  Olivia?  For 2 people we saw her crying over after they were killed?  For a woman that she took the time to (hurriedly) teach how to shoot a gun to save herself?  Yes, she compared them with children, in that they all need to learn to be strong and save themselves.  Children need to be taught things, but most people don't view them with contempt or hatred, and I don't see Carol feeling either hatred or contempt for people who just don't know all they should at this point.  Sadness, maybe.  Fear for them, yes.  But not hatred or contempt.

[Timetoread]

So you think she had nothing but hatred and contempt towards Shelley? Erin? Olivia? For 2 people we saw her crying over after they were killed? For a woman that she took the time to (hurriedly) teach how to shoot a gun to save herself? Yes, she compared them with children, in that they all need to learn to be strong and save themselves. Children need to be taught things, but most people don't view them with contempt or hatred, and I don't see Carol feeling either hatred or contempt for people who just don't know all they should at this point. Sadness, maybe. Fear for them, yes. But not hatred or contempt.

No not hatred or contempt for the individual people but for the idea of them collectively as people who are sheeps, sitting ducks, weak like she sees herself.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Timetoread

[mightysparrow]

So much to reply to!!  I love it when we get deep.

 

I feel you are misunderstanding me.  Let me define (not the words, but my usage of them):  SELFISH means that one only thinks of self,  and puts self before others (I would define FPP and Eugene as selfish men, whose self first attitude cost the lives of others).  SELF MOTIVATED means that the main thing that drives you is your feelings about yourself.  These feelings aren't necessarily positive and they shape your decision making and point of view.  ALTRUISTIC means that you think ONLY of others and put all others before self.  I don't think Carol, or Morgan for that matter, are selfish but I think they self motivated.  Carol is in a long arc of trying to figure out who to be but she's lost in a hole of also trying to figure out who she will allow herself to be.  I don't think that she is hardened at all, I think she still feels everything and that she still feels like she is being beat up.  It's weird and I hope this statement makes sense but she is fighting herself and in doing so ends up getting hit all the time.  I do believe she loves the people of CDB very much and would certainly die and kill on their behalf.  But the person she pretends to be, that she is turning herself into, isn't on their behalf, they aren't asking that of her - that is motivation that is coming from herSELF.

 

There are several scenes that speak, at least to me, about the reality inside of Carol: the scene with Mika in which she explains how you have to kill or be killed in this world, and Mika tells her that it is not so; the scene in which Tyrese forgives her; the whole episode with Rick when he banishes her after her refusal to see that preemptive murder is a bridge too far; and how much it seemed to mean to her when he thanked her and took her back; her demeanor after Terminus in trying to run away; the Suzie Homemaker fakery that hides contempt for the people in Alexandria; the way she talked about and mistrusted Michonne for stopping Rick; the way she talked down to Rick "Oh Sunshine, you can't have both."; the way she pushed up on Pete with a knife (it was like she wanted one last showdown with Ed to show him how much she'd changed, but it was stupid because Pete was a very large and very dangerous man and she luckily caught him in the calm before his murderous storm that he was saving up for Rick) and finally the way she talks to Sam.  That is not frontier woman, it is transferrence.  When she looks at Sam, she sees Sophia - innocent and sweet with a father who's a brute and a mother who hasn't yet found the strength to get away from him.  To this day she believes that it was Sophia's sweetness that got her killed.  If Sophia had been tougher - in the same way Carl is now tough - she'd still be alive.  Again, I see a parallel with Morgan - two people who have not gotten over (and lets' face it, will NEVER get over) losing their only child.  Carol has no idea who to be, or what to think, or how to feel - and she won't let herself feel all the things she should - as if that in and of itself would kill her.  So she takes chances she shouldn't, makes decisions she shouldn't - playing chicken with her own soul but in the end suffers for all of it.  And her hatred for the Alexandrians is really self-hatred.  She has contempt for them because they are exactly who she used to be and fundamentally she hates who she used to be.  That person got beat up.  That person couldn't find the strength to leave.  That person couldn't fight for herself.  That person couldn't save her child.  That person was not tough.  Really I think the lesson she needs to learn is that that person was okay, and deserving, and normal and worth saving. This is why I hope that they stop writing the Alexandrians as idiots, that these people can grow and ultimately adjust so that we can connect to Carol growing and ultimately adjusting.  I find it interesting that I see all of that in a person I don't like.  But I do and I really hope that I am seeing it right and not that they are making Carol into a Warrior Queen, just because.  I would love for her story to be about healing in the apocalypse.

 

 

 

You're right.  And like one poster said above, the A was written by Sam.  It was a fun thought though!

 

Excellent comment!  Really interesting analysis of the character and I think you're spot on. 

 

Carol's contempt for the Alexandrians was so obvious.  She practically curls her lip and sneers whenever she speaks to them.  Carol shows her real self to very few people; one of those people is Sam.  How she treats Sam is probably how she would treat the rest of the Alexandrians if she could.  She cried for a couple of them, after they were dead, but I think she was really crying for herself.

[FierceCritter]

Maybe I have amnesia or I'm just dense, but I never got all the Morgan worship. He's been in, what? 3 episodes? I don't know what he ever did to make him so important. Or maybe it has something to do with his comic book character? I've never read the comics so maybe I'm missing something.

1) Morgan was the first person Rick met once he woke up from his coma.

2) Morgan planted the seeds of survival in Rick, teaching him how to kill walkers, take shelter, scavenge, etc.

3) He was shown to be a tough, but caring character by way of his relationship with his son. Teaching him how to survive, and despite the breakdown of civilization, making sure to instill in Duane integrity and strength of character. Evidenced by his correcting Duane's grammar ("Weren't no man." "What the hell was that out of your mouth just then?" "It WASN'T a man..."), saying grace at a meal, etc.

4) There was always the hope that he would reconnect with Rick, as fed by Rick's continued attempt to communicate with him while possible via the walkie talkie at dawn each day after they separated.

5) In the episode "clear," Morgan was a very broken man. Yet still managed to survive through very smart methods and great strength. We wanted to see him sane again, and see where his arc took him.

A lot of it is that final bit. Seeds were planted about a very charismatic character, and we all know a little curiosity goes a long way in developing interest in a character.

Edited October 22, 2015 by FierceCritter

[Ohwell]

Deanna showed herself to be a true politician.  "I'll just sit here in this safe truck, out of the way of danger, so that you can go save the rest of the community.  I'm too important to be put at risk.  You can die in my place so that I live to lead the people afterwards".  LOL

Which is why I want her and her damn precious pendant necklace to get chomped next week.

 

I am willing to give him a pass if he soon figures out that it's not all black and white.

 

Umm.  Yes it is, at least on this show.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Ohwell

[Raven1707]

Jesse using little hair-cutting scissors to dispatch the She-Wolf made me laugh out loud. Beth anyone? It's not the weapon it's the attitude & context. 

 

I imagine it helps not to have to try and stab someone through a bullet-proof vest. All the attitude in the world's not going to cut it.

 

 

What I loved: Pacifist Morgan struggling with the Wolf and tying him up (was he planning to take prisoners? Is there a jail in Alexandria? Can they afford to feed and care for someone who wanted to kill them all?)  - anyway, I loved the way Carol just strolled over and casually shot him in the head. Problem solved.

 

In the premiere, we see Morgan practicing his stick-wielding skills in a cell -- although the cell door is open, there are indeed bars.

 

I like that this is a teaching show.  Any object can be used to kill.  Now Beth did not properly use her small scissors when she tried to kill the cop.  Also the cop had a gun.  

 

And the aforementioned bullet-proof vest. Which might offer better protection against knives & scissors than bullets, considering Rick was wearing one when he got shot back in "Days Gone By."  Then again, Morgan was saved by his body armor when Carl shot him in "Clear."

 

Please excuse any incoherence...I've been sick as a pack of dogs since Friday and have had a hard time catching up with the thread.

[Dodginblue]

So you think she had nothing but hatred and contempt towards Shelley?  Erin?  Olivia?  For 2 people we saw her crying over after they were killed?  For a woman that she took the time to (hurriedly) teach how to shoot a gun to save herself?  Yes, she compared them with children, in that they all need to learn to be strong and save themselves.  Children need to be taught things, but most people don't view them with contempt or hatred, and I don't see Carol feeling either hatred or contempt for people who just don't know all they should at this point.  Sadness, maybe.  Fear for them, yes.  But not hatred or contempt.

I don't see the hatred and contempt either.    I imagine Carol is like the combat vets who come home from the war and when they're with friends or family who haven't been there, who haven't seen or done what they have, there's just such a gap in life experience, it's probably hard not to come across as callous or uncaring about the everyday niceties.  And that as a woman Carol isn't given as much slack as the men, Rick or Abraham, for example.  She's supposed to be the group's Oracle, I guess, baking cookies and sharing her wisdom.   Being the kindly teacher-guide to the clueless women of ASZ.  And when she's not all that, well then, she's just hateful and mean.  

[morgankobi]

When I say "photo," you say "recap:"

 

Photo

______

 

Photo

______

 

Photo Recap!

 

Much funnier (to me) than last week. The AD reference killed me!

Edited October 22, 2015 by morgankobi

[mla40]

The new doctor lady annoyed me.

Since Enid has been at in town for a few months and I'm assuming her turtle eating days were maybe a month or two on her own, that leads me to believe she was with her parents surviving for a couple of years. They had to have acquired some pretty good skills. I don't think they were incompetent as is the general consensus, a momentary lapse in judgement? Over confident? Mentally exhausted? Whatever it was they taught Enid enough that she is still here and up to par with Carl.

[Bruinsfan]

And the aforementioned bullet-proof vest. Which might offer better protection against knives & scissors than bullets...

It's my understanding that kevlar is less effective against sharp piercing implements (definitely arrows, maybe knives and such as well) than it is against bullets. Though I'm not sure Beth's flaily arms could have inflicted a fatal wound with a lightsaber.

[CarpeDiem54]

When I say "photo," you say "recap:"

 

Photo

______

 

Photo

______

 

Photo Recap!

Much funnier (to me) than last week. The AD reference killed me!

Thanks! I love those things. My favorite:

Carol to Sam - Get off my lawn, Pussy!

[Anela]

Excellent comment!  Really interesting analysis of the character and I think you're spot on. 

 

Carol's contempt for the Alexandrians was so obvious.  She practically curls her lip and sneers whenever she speaks to them.  Carol shows her real self to very few people; one of those people is Sam.  How she treats Sam is probably how she would treat the rest of the Alexandrians if she could.  She cried for a couple of them, after they were dead, but I think she was really crying for herself.

She held that one woman, trying to calm her, and apparently killed her because she was going to die anyway. Not just to quiet her. 

She also showed real concern when she found out that Sam's father was beating his family.

[Hootis]

The pacifism / life is precious theme is done. It's just done. I can see inexperience leading to bad thinking by Alexandrians, but MORGAN? You can't convince me that he hasn't learned yet. His wife, his son...what else is it gonna take?

Carol is the only sane one now.

[nobody30]

Generally, I have to say the season started out promising, I very much liked the first two episodes.

 

And although Enid's story was just laid out with some flashbacks in a few minutes, and we know virtually nothing else about her, and maybe never will, I cared more about her than about any main character on FOTWD, and that says it all, thank God TWD is back!

 

So, shouldn't the horde of walkers be heading straight to Alexandria and arriving any minute? Shouldn't Morgan be running around warning people to be prepared or to leave, did I miss something?

[JackONeill]

 

So, shouldn't the horde of walkers be heading straight to Alexandria and arriving any minute? Shouldn't Morgan be running around warning people to be prepared or to leave, did I miss something?

 

 

Yeah, we seemed to miss Morgan's call to arms, not that there were that many people still alive to call. But, seriously, it's like he's leaving, totally forgetting to remind people that a swarm of Walkers are on their way to eat the few people who are left living. Hey, Morgan -- don't let the gate hit you on the ass on the way out!

[Haleth]

Morgan left the parade before the walkers were distracted by the horn.  He was sent back to tell the ASZers that the dry run had turned into the real thing.  Of course he failed to do that too as far as we know.

[lulee]

This episode was directed with a great sense of urgency, but I wish Jennifer Lynch and whomever wrote it would have gotten a visit from the continuity fairy with a moment from Morgan connecting back to last week and someone - maybe Rosita or Maggie - realizing that the truck horn would attract walkers.

EB: her name is Lynch not Lunch. Thanks a lot, autocorrect.

Edited October 22, 2015 by lulee

[JackONeill]

This episode was directed with a great sense of urgency, but I wish Jennifer Lunch and whomever wrote it would have gotten a visit from the continuity fairy with a moment from Morgan connecting back to last week and someone - maybe Rosita or Maggie realizing that the truck horn would attract walkers.

 

Yeah, there seemed to be a big disconnect in the two episodes. And I have a feeling we may get a flashback to Morgan's "History" this Sunday before the big melee gets underway. It's possible we may not even get to the big melee with the Walkers. We'll have scenes of Rick running, but then it'll be Morgan's story. It may play out as he's tracking those last few wolves.

[editorgrrl]

Although Enid's story was just laid out with some flashbacks in a few minutes, and we know virtually nothing else about her, and maybe never will, I cared more about her than about any main character on FTWD.

So, shouldn't the horde of walkers be heading straight to Alexandria and arriving any minute?

Deanna is outside the wall in a motor vehicle, oblivious to approaching walkers—maybe she'll end up like Enid's parents.

Edited October 22, 2015 by editorgrrl