S05.E03: Siege Perilous

[bkathi]

Why, why must they turn all heroes into villains and all villains heroic. Not a surprise any more guys, just a pin pricking my balloon of innocence. Yes, that's what she said.

[kili]

The ship was likely a last resort--and she wouldn't've needed the whole thing.

Maybe she was trying to figure out which boards he had stood on. "So, where exactly was he standing when you challenged him? Can you show me? Why, no, there is nothing suspicious about what I'm asking."

 

Does Happy get a new axe? I remember when Grumpy lost/wrecked his "Dreamy" axe, one with his new name "Grumpy" appeared. Maybe Happy's new axe will be called "Peeved".  

 

When Emma whacked the stone with the axe, Earworm Rumple moved. Is that another indication he is really there and not just a figment of her imagination? Why would a figment have to move? 

[Shanna Marie]

I know I harp a lot about the horrible writing in this show, but the scene between Emma and Hook was really well-done, both in the script and the way it was performed. It reminded me of the acting class improv exercise where the teacher gives both actors a scenario, then secretly gives each of them a goal, and then they have to play out the scene trying to get their own goal without knowing what the other person wants. It's almost like they're each in a totally different scene even though they're together. Only in this case, Emma knew both her own goal and had a really good idea of Hook's goal, while Hook only knew his own goal and had no idea what Emma wanted.

 

However, I think they needed to make it a lot clearer that the ship was at sail and under Emma's control. There was just that blink-and-you-miss-it establishing shot of the ship at sea, which I did miss the first time around, so Hook asking if he was going to be swimming or steering made no sense. But once you realize that she was the one who magically took the ship to sea and was in control of the ship -- essentially kidnapping him -- it changes the context of the whole scene and adds a layer of emotions on top of it. We needed to see him realizing that he was her prisoner, and once you know he's her prisoner and totally at her mercy, his actions make a lot more sense. First time around, when she told him to tell her he didn't love her and she'd let him go, I thought she meant emotionally, that she was saying that if he told her he didn't love her, then they'd break up for real and she'd quit trying with him. But his response to that being about whether he'd be swimming or steering suggests that she was talking about literally letting him go, since he was her prisoner. She was telling him she'd release him as her prisoner if he told her he didn't love her. That's why he had to be so careful about how he phrased it. In that moment, he thought he might be bargaining for his life. If he admitted to loving her, he might remain her prisoner and he'd be possibly putting himself even more under her control, but if he said he didn't love her, she might let him go, but that was making a deal with the Dark One, so there was no telling how it would end.

 

Jane tweeted that the scene was scripted to take place on the deck but got moved into the cabin for budget reasons, which could explain why it wasn't so obvious in the script. If they'd been on deck the whole time, it would have been more clear that Emma had isolated Hook and he was at her mercy.

 

I'm not sure whether or not to give them credit for this, since they seem to totally lack an understanding of how a ship like that works, but poofing away like that with him at sea wasn't exactly a kindness. It's not like you can just take the wheel and turn the ship around to sail back home. It's mostly about the wind, so he would have had to adjust the sails, and the prevailing wind would be pushing the ship away from the coast, so tacking would have been required, and that's a lot for one guy with one hand to do. Plus, since he hadn't been in control as they were sailing away and had been in the cabin so he couldn't see where they were going, he would have had to find a way to orient himself in order to get back. If you're out of sight of the coast, navigating in daylight without modern technology can be difficult. It requires accurate timekeeping and good charts about the position of the sun at various times. Does he even have charts for our world? It's possible that any he picked up for getting to New York might have been lost in the curse reversal. Or maybe he figured out GPS in the six weeks between 4a and 4b.

[RadioGirl27]

Not a bad episode, even if I think the Arthur/Charming adventure, both in Camelot and Storybrooke, was quite boring (except the fight at the bridge, that was cool). I liked the scene with Hook and Emma, it was painful but Hook's reaction was perfect.
 

Though the "I loved you" is kind of a weasel words way of putting it -- he's not committing to loving the current incarnation, he's expressing his feelings as they honestly were in the past, but he's not actually saying he doesn't currently love her. He's hedging his bets. It's almost like he has genre savvy, where he's aware that he's in a fairy tale, and in a fairy tale, words have power. If he said "I love you" that might have given her some kind of power over him. If he said he didn't love her, it might have severed every connection between them. But by saying "I loved you" he's telling the truth but perhaps not the whole truth, and not in a way that can be used against him.

Yeah, this. He never said "I don't love you", he still loves her, but he is not going to let her manipulate him and use him. He is just telling a half truth while he tries to understand what's going on. Jane Epenson answered last night a lot of questions about this scene and she said basically this, that Hook loves Emma and he is trying to decide if this is the real Emma. This scene is just another parallel with Snowing and the "I don't love you" that Snow told Charming.

 

Edit to add that I loved the scenes with Hook and Robin. Robin is so much better when he is not around Regina.

Edited October 12, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[YaddaYadda]

Hook/Robin might have been the most I ever liked Robin, which continues to make me believe that Hook really is one of the best characters on this show.

 

The scenes allowed Robin to do, think, say other things that had nothing to do with Regina. The scenes came off more natural if that makes sense.

 

Ok, about Captain Swan...

 

I think everything has basically been said that needed to be said. I really believe that Emma was genuinely brokenhearted by what Hook said to her, though she recovered rather quickly from it once she was in her lair. I don't think she expected him to say that to her. In her moments of doubt, Hook has always been there to make her see things the way he saw them, and so I'm guessing it was extra hard that he didn't do that, and this is not the person she's used to.

 

Emma came to the JR with intent. She brought up Gold/Belle because she knew he would take the bait, which is exactly what he did. And he didn't hold back any punches. 

 

I didn't get the impression she was trying to hide what was behind the door. She didn't lie to him about what was there, she just didn't say anything about it which makes me think she wants him to investigate it. She didn't have to take him to her home, but she did. She could have taken him into her living room or kitchen, but she didn't.

 

About Arthur...As someone who hates, and I mean hates Lancelot and how he is so damn perfect, I'm not exactly looking forward to his perfection being translated into this show. I have to say though, when David told Arthur that Lancelot had died, I thought Arthur looked all kinds of broken up about it. 

 

This whole Arthur lying though and stealing the magic schroom from David raises more questions as in;

 

Doesn't Arthur wanna be reunited with Merlin?

 

And it answers one question;

 

Arthur who pulled sword from the stone and Arthur standing here now, they're not the same person. The man has likely changed so much that he would likely be obliterated by his own sword.

[VCRTracking]

Still laughing at the Hook/Robin sonogram scene. "It's a picture taken from up inside Zelena." "Whoa mate!"

 

The fact that the actor playing Arthur kind of looks like David Hemmings, who played Mordred in the 1968 Camelot movie is an amusing coincidence.

 

Edited October 12, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Rumsy4]

That's yet another reasonable take on the "steer or swim home" remark. The writing as usual needs 10 different people to figure out. It take a village (or a forum)... ;-)

Hook may have guessed Emma needed something from the Jolly Roger because she asked him to meet her there. He must have thought that as he did not give Emma whatever it was that Emma wanted from him, she would take the ship and get it herself.

As it turned out however, Emma managed to get his cutlass by pretending to seduce him. Emma must have known Hook would react poorly to any such attempt. When he got angry and distracted, Emma was easily able to take the cutlass from him. Positively machiavellian.

[BoPeeps]

Not good. I'm still trying and failing to find the show I fell in love with several seasons back.

I was totally non-caring about a lot of it and while I was entertained by some bits ( the jousting concept was fun, so we're the headless knights- yes, Bedknobs and Broomsticks!)

Moments of one liners and great camera angles and pretty costumes were certainly there. But there is still a huge disconnect between all the various snippets- not thoughtful writing or much mature cohesive story telling. Even seeing the beloved Jolly Roger didn't make up for much because it seemed hurried and barren and just a quick prop.

It's chopped up and fragmented and somewhat lost. The writers just can't make up their mind about who is what. Too much of the story is told or explained, not shown. No scenes are "explored" for longer than a handful of rapidly delivered sentences that sometimes are too garbled to understand.

Arthur doesn't have much deep presence or regalness. Guinivere is bland. The round table was oddly ugly and unimpressive. The tents of the displaced Camelot dwellers was just weird and totally took one out of the personality of the show...etc etc etc. No one is on solid character ground and all are poorly defined. Being "shady" can sometimes mean being a victim of shoddy writing.

If they are attempting to show/ develop Regina as a source of genuine heroic growth and goodness, they are failing. She was simply shrewish. Zelena....blech. All the main characters ARE more fun to watch but waiting for their actions to make progressive sense is wearing thin. When elements of good and evil are blended so haphazardly within the same character, you tend to lose the trust of the audience.

Hook was given the best character development moments (and the best lighted scene, the man's face is amazing and not just because of pure pulchritude!) but at the same time was part of a head scratching dumbing down during the cutlass stealing moment. His confrontation with faux date Emma was (as is everything) too quickly scripted for the audience to become emotionally involved.

Emma. Hmm. Intriguing "dark swan-ness" doesn't mean you confuse the viewers so much that her believability is shattered. That is a very real risk they are taking. Trusting a character is the soul of any show and this one screws around with that way too much.

Rumple, as always, is good, even though I suspect that mind demon isn't really him at all. Carlyle and Colin are in an advanced class of thespians no matter the lines given them.

Lancelot is a true presence, but still just thrown in there. I hope more is developed, intelligently between he and Snow. She needs help to regain her spirit. All she does is carry a baby and toss in a line to David that he will always be her hero.

Even Grumpy pissed me off with his one note character appearance.

Too much was too mediocre.

Oh crap, I am depressing myself!

I'm done for this week.

[scenicbyway]

The fact that Emma essentially had Hook prisoner on his own ship adds even more depth to their scene.  Did he really think she might kill him? Perhaps, we've seen Rumple go for him repeatedly because he's the only one left who met the real Rumple.  If he had said, "I love you" would she've kept him prisoner?  I don't think so, I think she just wanted lunch but he had no way of knowing that.  Emma had complete control yet, Hook was able to get his point across.

[FierceAfroChick]

Emma did look truly heartbroken, I don't know how anyone can look at her reaction and say she was faking it or wasn't really that bothered by it.

 

I don’t think Emma was there for the Jolly. I think, unlike Belle, Emma remembered that Hook knew Rumpel pre-Dark One curse and decided to pick his brain in order to find a useful object.  

 

It seems Hook was so focused on his own attempts at subterfuge and smelling his I'm-a-hero pee that he failed in the way he handled Emma.  He’s supposed to be protecting her heart, not breaking it.  If he’s so versed in Dark One than he should’ve known that Emma was still in there somewhere, listening to him declare he used to love her.  His reaction just proved he spent 300 years in a blind rage and learned jack shit about how the Dark One curse affects a person’s psyche.  He knows how to kill a Dark One and…that’s it. 

 

I have no doubt that Hook still loves her, but Emma doesn’t know that.  And you can parse that “I loved you” to death, but it still equals past tense.  As in ”I don’t love you anymore.”  There’s no gray in there, it’s black and white. 

 

No one’s asking Hook to marry her and look over her all these heinous crimes she’s committed, but you’re not dealing with fucking Rumpelstiltskin, you’re dealing with the woman you love.  Someone who took on this dark goo to save people who apparently aren't worthy of being saved.  Adjust your damn game plan.  There is a difference between the Dark One and Dark Emma.  Behind the white hair and black leather, your love is still in there.  And probably embracing the darkness a little bit more after having her heart stomped on.

 

*looks at her reaction to loved again*

 

Yep, still Emma.

 

 

[Chaos Theory]

It's funny. I've noticed people's animosity to characters effects their enjoyment of a show. Yes I know people on this board hate Regina so whatever she does is somehow going to be bad and wrong no matter how logical and right it actually is. I am not the biggest Hook fan but even I found his scenes with Emma enjoyable this season. I actually liked the fact that he admitted that he was the villian in the initial encounter between him and Rumple. He took at least some of the blame for making Rumple into a monster. Rumple in turn has at least some of the blame for making Regina a monster and it goes on and on.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[DeLurker]

Glad to see Lancelot is back! Loved him the first time around.

I think it's interesting that Arthur is a gray character.

Can you please give me a short refresher on when we've seen Lancelot before?

 

I misread this as "Arthur is a gay character".  After reading the recap, I'm not alone in seeing something.

 

I was worried about the horse when Charming jousted Grif.

[YaddaYadda]

I actually liked the fact that he admitted that he was the villian in the initial encounter between him and Rumple. He took at least some of the blame for making Rumple into a monster. Rumple in turn has at least some of the blame for making Regina a monster and it goes on and on.

 

I think we should acknowledge that Rumple manipulated the hell out of Regina by using Daniel and enlisting Whale and Jefferson to do his dirty work for him. Everything else after that is on her, but he pushed hard enough to get what he wanted. What Regina lacks is self-awareness. She can't lecture Zelena when she behaved exactly like that something like 3 months ago (when she lashed out at Emma for ruining her life)

 

I'm glad Hook acknowledged some of his doing in the whole Milah/Rumple situation. Hook was a bully and a general ass to someone who didn't deserve it. It came back and bit him in the ass in a horrible way.

 

I'm glad Emma found the cutlass though. I would have been really sad if she had shrunk the Jolly Roger and crushed it to wake sleeping!Rumple. 

[Rumsy4]

He took at least some of the blame for making Rumple into a monster. Rumple in turn has at least some of the blame for making Regina a monster and it goes on and on.

 

I disagree with the first inference. Hook was a jerk and a bully to Rumple in that scene he mentioned, but he did not take any blame for turning Rumpel into a monster. On the other hand, Rumple wanted to make a monster out of Regina and did everything he could to manipulate her towards it. So they're not equivalent situations. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Rumsy4

[FierceAfroChick]

It's funny. I've noticed people's animosity to characters effects their enjoyment of a show.

 

True...it's why I've gone back to watch the Regina scenes and tried to be more neutral on her, then maybe I can make some sense of what the writers are trying to do.  Will try to do it with Rumpel as well.  Can't make any promises on Belle though.

[YaddaYadda]

I thought Belle looked super lovely in that green dress. They need to stop having the girl run in those high heels because she can't really do it, and the distance is so short that I'm always scared she's gonna face plant.

[kili]

Jane tweeted that the scene was scripted to take place on the deck but got moved into the cabin for budget reasons, which could explain why it wasn't so obvious in the script

That's consistent with the spoiler

we got that the Lady Washington was booked for filming and then the booking got rescinded.  

 

Would the scene be better on the deck? That may have made it more clear that he was being kidnapped and he could have shown where he was standing during the Rumple encounter. But, I think it was more claustrophobic in his cabin and made for a more tense stand-off.

 

Though, I was wondering what happened to all the crap he used to keep in the cabin. It was pretty spartan this time around. Either he has had to hawk things in order to be able to feed himself or Blackbeard tossed all his stuff overboard.

Edited October 12, 2015 by kili

[Camera One]

It's funny. I've noticed people's animosity to characters effects their enjoyment of a show.

 

I can only watch shows where I don't hate any of the characters, or it really affects any potential enjoyment one might derive.  How I felt about the Regina scenes in this episode has little to do with my personal feelings about the character.  I actually liked last week's episode most out of all three of these episodes despite that being a Regina centric.

 

Like in 4A, the Regina scenes in this episode were unnecessary and counterproductive.  They threw that in because they seemed to feel the need to use Zelena now that she's a series regular.  There was no reason for Regina to gloat to Zelena.  Regina should have been struck that Zelena was clinging to the child wanting someone to love her, and that was exactly how she herself felt.  Some Regina/Belle scenes might have been a better use of those characters in this episode, or maybe cutting out Regina entirely and having some Snow/Belle scenes, especially since they could have explored how Belle felt about Rumple eventually waking up, since he does so in this episode.  Heck, if they were going to "use" the Dwarves, why not give Leroy and Snow some legitimate screentime?  On the flashback side, having Snow discover some weird things about Camelot BEFORE she met Lancelot would have been nice.  And of course this ignores the obvious... why are the writers not giving Snowing and Dark Emma any scenes?  Is it intentional or have they already filled the Dark Emma allotment with Mind Rumple and Hook?  The use of screentime in this one was bizarre.  

Edited October 12, 2015 by Camera One

[Souris]

I don't remember Hook ever sacrificing his own life to save anyone, like you know Regina did, last time previous episode.

 

I guess you missed the season finale last season.

[Shanna Marie]

Would the scene be better on the deck? That may have made it more clear that he was being kidnapped and he could have shown where he was standing during the Rumple encounter. But, I think it was more claustrophobic in his cabin and made for a more tense stand-off.

I think the scene works better and makes more sense in the cabin, but then the writing or editing needed to be adjusted to make it clearer that they were at sea and to show his reaction to that knowledge. At the end of the scene, him asking whether his freedom will mean steering or swimming suggests that he's been kidnapped, and therefore the "freedom" she offers him isn't emotional freedom -- if you don't love me, then I'll give up on you and stop trying -- but rather his physical freedom, but there's nothing in the scene before that other than his overall hostility to suggest that he knows he's her captive. They cut from her poofing into the date dress and turning the Granny's takeout into a romantic dinner to the split-second establishing shot of the ship at sea and the tense standoff in the cabin. We needed to see his awareness that the ship was sailing and he wasn't in control of it. I don't think they'd have been down in the cabin if he'd voluntarily sailed away because someone would need to be steering the ship. So then why did she sail the ship away from the dock other than to isolate him? They were already alone in the cabin, so all I can think of is that she was keeping him from being able to escape until she got what she wanted.

 

The fact that he's a prisoner changes the way everything else reads, especially his "I loved you." That's why I don't think that has anything to do with his current feelings. She told him that if he said he didn't love her, she'd let him go. He wasn't willing to do that, even to buy his freedom. But he didn't know what she'd do if he said he did love her. If she was letting him go if he said he didn't love her, would he have kept her as her prisoner if he'd said he did love her? So the "I loved you" was splitting the difference, telling something that's true without commenting on the current situation. I'm sure it hurt her to hear it that way, but it worked to get him freed.

[Camera One]

I wasn't really too concerned about whether they were at sea or what, though I thought that swimming or sailing back line was clunky.  Having that scene on deck would definitely have been more picturesque.  She could kill him wherever or whenever if she actually wanted to, though it's not like such a fan favorite would die anyway.  Jennifer Morrison did the best she could in that scene, and overall, it was probably the strongest scene in the episode given the after-school special crap Josh Dallas was dealt, but I couldn't really feel anything for her when Hook said what he did.  The scene was more focused on empowerment and resistance on Hook's side.  I have no clue what Dark Emma was truly thinking or feeling in this entire episode.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Camera One

[shipperx]

That's an alternate universe, not real Hook so it doesn't count, but since you mentioned it, Regina also died there for same reasons as Hook.

I don't want to get into an either/or debate. No only is this not a zero sum debate but I'm one of those rare individuals who like both characters. With all that said, why in the heck would that not count??? They were cursed. That was them-- cursed-- but it was them. If Emma could remember, it meant that this was them. I can't see how it doesn't count just because it involved one of the multiple memory wipes/rewrites that have happened in the show.

[october]

I've enjoyed reading the discussions surrounding this episode. I walked way from it feeling strangely content, but that's mainly because I'm excited for the (potential) pay-off. Then again TS;TW, so I won't hold my breath.

 

Hook and Emma totally had me, as usual. I sympathise with both and I don't blame Hook for what he said. He has never said 'I love you' to Emma (not using those exact words), perhaps that's one of the reasons he refused to say it in present tense here and under these circumstances. He couldn't let the DO have that. I think that, rationally, Emma will understand why he didn't respond to her as he otherwise would have. Emotionally, on the other hand, and with her particular set of emotional baggage I think it's going to be rough. I'm not sure what I want to see happen. I don't want the angst to drag on forever and eat the relationship, but I don't want it dealt with in a 20 second scene before cutting away to show Regina sulking over a broken nail.

[Mathius]

I disagree with the first inference. Hook was a jerk and a bully to Rumple in that scene he mentioned, but he did not take any blame for turning Rumpel into a monster. On the other hand, Rumple wanted to make a monster out of Regina and did everything he could to manipulate her towards it. So they're not equivalent situations.

Yes, this. What if he had been nicer and given Milah back? The Ogre Wars would still come up again, Bae would still be in danger, Rumple would still be desperate and choose to become the Dark One. That incident with Hook had nothing to do with Rumple becoming a monster.

 

Someone who took on this dark goo to save people who apparently aren't worthy of being saved.

That can't be used as an excuse anymore since it wasn't that sacrifice that made her actually embrace the darkness said goo provided, that would be something that happened in Camelot that we still don't know about; until we do, we can't blame anyone.

 

There is a difference between the Dark One and Dark Emma.

No, there isn't. Dark Emma is the Dark One, period, she said so herself.

I know you hate seeing Emma heart-broken, but there was little else to be done. Emma's love for Hook has become a selfish one, just as with Rumple's love for Belle, and allowing her even an inch just for the sake of her feelings gives her an opening to use Hook, which she will do without hesitation because she IS the Dark One now and that's what the Dark One does.

I read a Twitter spoiler

during shooting of an upcoming episode that Hook later DOES clarify to Belle that he still loves Emma and will not give up trying to help her, but he's not going to permit her to have any chance of manipulating him, and being open about his love for her is the easiest chance she could have. He's on the defensive, it's her move now.

Edited October 12, 2015 by stacey
Spoiler tag

[Camera One]

So the book with the mushroom was in Merlin's Tower the entire time.  So Merlin told Arthur and Co. that when the time comes, a Savior will come and free me from this tree, and the Camelot people just sat there and nodded and just waited?  Ever considered phoning up Merlin via Magic Mushroom and asking him some questions?  Arthur knows the Dark One's dagger fits to the end of Excalibur, so did Merlin tell him that?    I know it's supposed to be all mysterious but it just seems stupid.  The whole concept that Merlin probably intended for all the Devious Author -->  Egg Baby -->  Emma becoming the Dark one --> Get the Dagger back to Camelot in the least offensive Dark One in history --> Let Arthur make Excalibur whole... that possibility annoys me.  I hate puppeteers controlling everything.  

 

Why is Lancelot walking around the castle not even wearing a disguise.  Seriously, every character must up the other in the contest of the Stupidest of Them All.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Camera One

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Around Arthur's Table
Once Upon A Time is heavy on innuendo but light on plot, as shenanigans in Camelot continue.

[kili]

Ever considered phoning up Merlin via Magic Mushroom and asking him some questions?

Arthur doesn't want Merlin (or whoever is in the tree) talked with. He stole the Magic Mushroom from Charming to prevent it. So, he has no reason to risk his life to get the mushroom or waste his time reading Merlin's books (although, he might have known to get rid of the mushroom if he'd read the books).

 

I'm beginning to think he was behind Percival trying to kill the "saviour" - no saviour, no Merlin.

 

The whole concept that Merlin probably intended for all the Devious Author -->  Egg Baby -->  Emma becoming the Dark one --> Get the Dagger back to Camelot in the least offensive Dark One in history --> Let Arthur make Excalibur whole... that possibility annoys me.

Merlin's Rube Goldbergian plans make Rumple's plan to get to the land without magic seem positively simplistic.

 

I'm still annoyed about Merlin telling an 8 year old during the "Sword and the Stone" not to take the sword from the stone. I can't remember everything everybody told me when I was 8. I would probably just think he was an overly friendly usher who made weird jokes and promptly forget all about it. If it is that important that Emma gets the message, find a better way of delivering it to her. Heck, have the Apprentice tell her when she is an adult, knows about magic and might actually remember.

Edited October 12, 2015 by kili

[Camera One]

When Arthur talked of building a new Camelot in Storybrooke, I had flashbacks of Peter Pan wanting to build a New Neverland in Storybrooke.  

[Mari]

Merlin Rube Goldbergian plans make Rumple's plan to get to the land without magic seem positively simplistic.

They kind of do, don't they?  And they make about as much sense.  Would that be an argument for the theory that the Dark One goo is originally Merlin's darkness?

[KAOS Agent]

 

I'm still annoyed about Merlin telling an 8 year old during the "Sword and the Stone" not to take the sword from the stone. I can't remember everything everybody told me when I was 8.

 

Emma was at most six when Merlin visited. He showed up in '89. Emma was born late October '83.  The whole Merlin as an usher thing was stupid. Also, Merlin sucks.

 

I'd love to know how Arthur thinks he's going to build an entirely new kingdom in Storybrooke. Beyond Snowing/Regina, there are several other kingdoms worth of royals and their subjects in town. You think they're just going to be like Yay! All hail King Arthur! He's a dumbass with a plan that makes zero sense. Plus, everyone knows Camelot fell and why. Why the hell would you want to build a new one?

[scenicbyway]

Emma did look truly heartbroken, I don't know how anyone can look at her reaction and say she was faking it or wasn't really that bothered by it.

 

I don’t think Emma was there for the Jolly. I think, unlike Belle, Emma remembered that Hook knew Rumpel pre-Dark One curse and decided to pick his brain in order to find a useful object.  

 

It seems Hook was so focused on his own attempts at subterfuge and smelling his I'm-a-hero pee that he failed in the way he handled Emma.  He’s supposed to be protecting her heart, not breaking it.  If he’s so versed in Dark One than he should’ve known that Emma was still in there somewhere, listening to him declare he used to love her.  His reaction just proved he spent 300 years in a blind rage and learned jack shit about how the Dark One curse affects a person’s psyche.  He knows how to kill a Dark One and…that’s it. 

 

I have no doubt that Hook still loves her, but Emma doesn’t know that.  And you can parse that “I loved you” to death, but it still equals past tense.  As in ”I don’t love you anymore.”  There’s no gray in there, it’s black and white. 

 

No one’s asking Hook to marry her and look over her all these heinous crimes she’s committed, but you’re not dealing with fucking Rumpelstiltskin, you’re dealing with the woman you love.  Someone who took on this dark goo to save people who apparently aren't worthy of being saved.  Adjust your damn game plan.  There is a difference between the Dark One and Dark Emma.  Behind the white hair and black leather, your love is still in there.  And probably embracing the darkness a little bit more after having her heart stomped on.

 

*looks at her reaction to loved again*

 

Yep, still Emma.

I thought Hook proved in that scene that he does know how the Dark One's psyche works.  He told Emma, he liked how she was, and how he liked breaking down her walls and that he had loved that Emma.  Basically he was telling her that he liked her before she became this new confident Dark One.  She had just told him she was over her insecurities and he told her he liked her even with her insecurities.  There was no "blowing it" in my mind, because we saw the real Emma tearful before she disappeared.  The entire point was that he got through to the real Emma which is something that no ones been able to do yet.

 

Also, what heinous crimes has DO Emma committed?  So far she's saved Robin's life, saved and kidnapped Rumple and stolen a dwarf axe, none of those are particularly heinous or dark...

Emma was at most six when Merlin visited. He showed up in '89. Emma was born late October '83.  The whole Merlin as an usher thing was stupid. Also, Merlin sucks.

 

I'd love to know how Arthur thinks he's going to build an entirely new kingdom in Storybrooke. Beyond Snowing/Regina, there are several other kingdoms worth of royals and their subjects in town. You think they're just going to be like Yay! All hail King Arthur! He's a dumbass with a plan that makes zero sense. Plus, everyone knows Camelot fell and why. Why the hell would you want to build a new one?

Maybe he's planning on turning those who don't cooperate into trees?  I think he's planning to build his kingdom in Storybrooke because Camelot has been threatened or destroyed and he knows it.  It makes no sense for the Camelot people to be in Storybrooke unless one of them cast the curse.

[Souris]

I read a Twitter spoiler

during shooting of an upcoming episode that Hook later DOES clarify to Belle that he still loves Emma and will not give up trying to help her, but he's not going to permit her to have any chance of manipulating him, and being open about his love for her is the easiest chance she could have. He's on the defensive, it's her move now.

 

Would you mind linking to that spoiler in the Spoilers Thread?

[PixiePaws1]

The comment Emma made about hanging onto something that has your name on it....more dagger abuse in Camelot?

At first I thought someone else had the real dagger in SB but she was going to try and unite it with the sword in the basement. ...so I guess it is the real one.

[Blue Plastic]

I too am glad that Dark Emma hasn't done anything truly evil.  I wish they would have her question Mirage Rumple's "Snuff Out the Light" plan, at least a little.  I still don't buy why she would want to do it.

Wouldn't she lose Henry by doing that?  That would be my understanding based on how flimsily they explained the concept, so I'm not getting why Emma would be so gung-ho to do something that would cut herself off from Henry forever, basically.  What a way to let your kid know you care.  She knows how Rumpel's parental failures as the Dark One affected Bae/Neal.

 

Of course her examples are Snowing, the Regina-loving egg-nappers...

[Camera One]

I also loved when Regina saw the question mark and exclaimed it's her handwriting.  LOL.  Good thing she didn't just grab a bookmark.  If she had only taken a few notes, they would know exactly why they were looking for the Crimson Crown aka the Useless MacGuffin of the Week.

[FierceAfroChick]

Also, what heinous crimes has DO Emma committed?  So far she's saved Robin's life, saved and kidnapped Rumple and stolen a dwarf axe, none of those are particularly heinous or dark...

 

That should have read "heinous".

[LizaD]

 

If Emma was going to cure Rumple with the ship, why the date with Hook?  Why not just bring Rumple to the ship, crumple a floorboard over him and call it a day?  She wanted to spend time with Hook, and it looks like they were out long enough to finish their meal and have a heavy conversation

 

Yes but also the writers have said Emma has access to the accumulation of all the knowledge and skills of past DOs combined. She didn't need to manipulate Hook for information. She knows what Rump knows and therefore knew the info about the cutlass already. It was exposition meant for the audience. She would know about the ship too I guess but I don't konw if that's the imagery they wanted. Crumbling a sword/cutlass over Rump while Excalibur is in the background works in a way a shrunken boat or floorboard wouldn't. Or a shawl for that matter. Not to mention there would be no good reason Hook would have that shawl and not Rump. And it had to have been something Hook had. The fact that she stole Happy's axe first at least showed that she tried something else before going after Hook.

 

 

I too am glad that Dark Emma hasn't done anything truly evil. 

 

If she's going to be drooling in a corner and whining about how evil she is ala Snow after killing Cora then I damn well want her self-flagellation to be worth it. Because that stuff is no fun as we've seen, so the least they could do is provide the entertainment before she's a sad sack again. Besides her non-evil acts, she doesn't even look like she's having fun. What happened to the "villains always have more fun" thing? It'd be a lot more entertaining to me if her and sparkly imaginery Rump was tearing up the town and I'm not saying they have to go on indiscriminate killing sprees. Rump did plenty of shady things that didn't involve killing.  At this point TP'ing the sheriff's station would be more evil than what's she done so far. As is, Dark Swan is a non-starter and pretty much DOA.

[YaddaYadda]

Did David borrow Hook's spy glass?

 

Crumbling a sword/cutlass

 

Crumbling Hook's cutlass 3 seconds after Rumple taunts her about crushing Hook's heart? Did not sound ominous for the guy at all.

[Rumsy4]

So the book with the mushroom was in Merlin's Tower the entire time.  So Merlin told Arthur and Co. that when the time comes, a Savior will come and free me from this tree, and the Camelot people just sat there and nodded and just waited?  Ever considered phoning up Merlin via Magic Mushroom and asking him some questions?   

 

It doesn't look like ANYONE in Camelot had had the bright idea to communicate with Tree-Merlin before Snow thought of it. :-p How the heck was the Apprentice communicating with Merlin? 

 

Arthur doesn't want Merlin (or whoever is in the tree) talked with. He stole the Magic Mushroom from Charming to prevent it.

 

That's an interesting thought. I merely assumed Arthur was going to communicate with Merlin in secret. Maybe Arthur has been playing the Merlin/Excalibur card to maintain his kingship in Camelot all this time. He doesn't want Merlin freed in case he loses control to the Sorceror. Better an unfulfilled prophecy than have a powerful sorcerer taking away some of the king's authority.

 

Wouldn't she lose Henry by doing that?  That would be my understanding based on how flimsily they explained the concept, so I'm not getting why Emma would be so gung-ho to do something that would cut herself off from Henry forever, basically.  

 

Agree. It doesn't make any sense. I guess/hope this will get explained more clearly as the arc progresses.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

It doesn't look like ANYONE in Camelot had had the bright idea to communicate with Tree-Merlin before Snow thought of it. :-p How the heck was the Apprentice communicating with Merlin? 

 

Good point... almost forgot about that (exactly what the writers were counting on).  I guess Merlin being in tree form was why he appeared as Smoke to The Apprentice?  Or more likely, they haven't been in contact since the first Curse.  Or maybe they contacted by magic mushrooms... clearly the Apprentice's mental capacities have been highly impaired for eons.

[tennisgurl]

I finally got to see the episode, at long last. Overall....not a bad outing, especially after how much I hated last week and its Regina bullshit.

 

Actually Regina didn't really bother me this week. Yeah, Regina telling Zelena to stop calling herself a victim is pretty much the ultimate "pot calling the kettle black" moment, but whatever. She can just do her thing in the background, and I`ll just ignore her. 

 

It was great to get an actual Charming episode. One where he actually gets to do stuff, and deal with stuff, and do things other than learn pointless lessons that come out of nowhere.

 

I so called King Arthur being sketchy, but he seems to kind of have some valid points. They did lie about the Dark One, and they did probably do whatever caused the Camelot people to end up here. He might be this arcs bad guy, but, as of now, he seems to be of the "I do evil for the greater good" type of guy, and not the "I`m evil because EVIL" kind of guy. I do not know how I feel about it right now. This show just loves casting classic good guys as bad guys, and it is kind of getting old.

 

Hook and Emma are making my heart hurt.  

 

 

I laughed when Charms cut off the first head and the black knight put it right back on.  I said out loud "'Tis but a scratch!" and had to pause the show while I chuckled at myself.

I did the exact same thing! Followed by Arthur being all "I pulled a sword through a rock and now I`m a king" and I just had to say something about a farcical aquatic ceremony. 

Edited October 13, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Curio]

Finally watched the episode. I must have gone back and watched that Hook and Emma scene at least five times in a row after I first saw it. It was just brilliantly acted and written. You catch so many new subtleties, like Emma's eyes flickering for a quick moment when she realizes she can use Hook's cutlass to wake Rumple up, or when Hook can't even look Emma in the eyes after he asked if he was steering or swimming. Kudos to Colin and Jen.

 

But once you realize that she was the one who magically took the ship to sea and was in control of the ship -- essentially kidnapping him -- it changes the context of the whole scene and adds a layer of emotions on top of it. We needed to see him realizing that he was her prisoner, and once you know he's her prisoner and totally at her mercy, his actions make a lot more sense.

 
You know Emma is full-on Dark One when she starts using tips from sociopathic Dennis Reynolds. Emma totally knew manipulating Hook on a ship in the middle of the ocean would work because of the implication.
 
Sparkly Rumple: So your plan is to have a date with Hook on his ship?
Dark Emma: Think about it. He's out in the middle of nowhere. He looks around and what does he see? Nothing but open ocean. There's nowhere for him to run.
Sparkly Rumple: Okay, that seems really dark.
Dark Emma: Well, I am the Dark One.
 
(Reference, for the posters who aren't It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia fans.)

[tennisgurl]

Oh, and the scenes with Hook and Robin actually made Robin pretty likable. Its only when he`s with Regina that he turns into some kind of bland love interesting puppet. Too bad, like, all his scenes are with her. 

[kili]

Why did King Arthur lie about the magic bean? Grif said there was none in there and that didn't surprise Arthur at all. What is he playing at?

 

Although, I half expected Charming to tell Arthur to go and see Hook. Hook can always find a magical bean in a pinch.

 

The Camelotians could not have traveled to Camelot with a bean because they were sprinkled around the forest. That's more like how a curse transports you. Meanwhile, it could be the way that the Neverengers traveled since they were all together.

[Camera One]

I assumed Arthur said a bean since that would make the theft important enough for Charming to drop everything and help him find the thief.  He could argue the bean could help them to get back to Camelot to find Merlin.  

 

But then again, can't Zelena just summon another twister?  Did they lose the Wand or something?  

[KAOS Agent]

Why don't they just walk through the door in the Sorcerer's mansion? I'm sure Elsa would help get some ships to transport them home. This is the problem with having 18 million ways to travel between worlds. 

[Camera One]

A&E would probably say that door closed.  Because.

[placate]

Can someone explain the Lancelot thing to me?  I might remember past seasons poorly, but wasn't he a dead person that Cora was manipulating? 

[YaddaYadda]

Can someone explain the Lancelot thing to me?  I might remember past seasons poorly, but wasn't he a dead person that Cora was manipulating? 

In season 2, Cora was impersonating Lancelot. She said she killed him, which she clearly lied about since she's a liar who lies.

[AndySmith]

And how have I never noticed before how cute Happy is?

 

Given how they were presented in the Disney cartoon, I do wish the Dwarfs were all a little more on the bear side of being gay, Grumpy aside. But oh well.