S14.E08: Broadway Or Bust

[ratgirlagogo]

How about "mother of the bride" so favored by Michael Kors.

[breezy424]

The whole 'matronly' thing bothers me as well.  There's a whole lot of women out there over forty, fifty and even sixty and above who like to, and are, dressing great.  They give the impression that it's about age.  It's not.  A great design isn't about youth either.  But then again, we have Heidi Klum hosting the show who thinks the more 'boob' you show the better.  And Heidi, you're not that young and neither are you Nina. 

[anonymiss]

Does anyone else find the irony in the fact that the worst insult a judge can give a designer is that their clothes look"matronly," or look like clothes for "an old lady," etc., and the biggest complement is how "young" the design is and how young women would love to wear the clothes? And YET, one of their major sponsors is AARP.

Since reaching a "certain age," I admit to feeling invisible and very sensitive to the word "matronly," so maybe it's just me.

I agree. I didn't like when Kors started using "matronly/Mother of The Bride" especially when the garments in question were beautiful but so sophisticated he'd end up calling them that. But, it's an easy stereotypical description to use, which is why I referred to Lindsay's dowdy, plain work as granny style.

 

Fashion doesn't point to what's young, but to what's fresh for the season (including modifying past looks). Style is how well we incorporate those looks and make them our own according to our personal aesthetic. In Lindsay, I see none of that. Just someone (poorly) replicating templates, just like her generic hipster costume (and Candice with her hipsterized Bettie Page). She's no Dmitry or Laura, for example, whose looks were always chic even if they skewed more mature.

 

When the judges insist, "Young girls would want to wear this," I assume they're trying to convince us how cool/young they are by exaggerating how cool/young they recognize something to be. 

Edited September 27, 2015 by anonymiss

[Kromm]

I know most of the posters here have come to despise Candice, but I think she killed this challenge. That was a hell of an outfit, and the best one of the week by far. I get that some may say it's "safe" for her, or samey-same to everything else she's done, but I think she simply has a consistent design point of view and varies pretty well within that box. She may (or may not) be some kind of evil scheming mean girl/b-word (that's debatable since I think it was never personal with her), but she's a good designer nonetheless.

Laurie not going for that travesty of an outfit is shocking. That was probably, in it's own way, the single most unwearable outfit this show has sent down a runway in years and she didn't get booted for it. If they claim they really judge week by week, they're lying. They were punishing Lindsay for her HISTORY of being boring, not just for one outfit sitting there next to another outfit that was a nightmare.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Kromm

[justawatcher]

The other thing very ironic about the whole mumsy/matronly thing is that I have much more disposable income at not-quite-fifty than I did at not-quite-twenty. Do you want to sell $100 pants or do you want to sell $19.99 pants? I like those mumsy/matronly/boring designs. I would get laughed out of my office and my job title if I wore some of the crap that gets pushed, including some of Michael Kors' current collections.

[Diane Mars]

Regarding the "mumsy" or "matronly" critiques and how they are perceived on the forum, if it has the same meaning than in French ("mémère"), it's not a question of our "real" age, but of our "fashion sense" age... A twenty-something could perfectly be "mumsy", and an eighty-something edgy.

 

So I think I'm wrong, because some people here seems to be offended and I don't get it :(

Edited September 27, 2015 by Diane Mars

[Tony]

Someone should remind Nina that she's not exactly in her early 20's and instead is pushing 50, so she should cut it out with the ageism bullshit. I'm in the former age category and even I find her attitude irritating. She's such an killjoy with a permanent bitchface. No idea how someone this inarticulate could get hired to dole out criticisms (protip: form your thoughts in your head before you start speaking so you don't take 5 minutes to say a simple sentence).

 

If PR wants to improve the show, the should can her ass asap.

[English Teacher]

I cannot believe that they didn't send Laurie home.  That was the hottest hot mess of an outfit I have ever seen!!!!  And, where would someone wear that?  The top completely exposed the model's breasts and the "hot pants" left half of her bottom exposed, until she added some extra material, which only added more volume to an already bad concept.  

 

The model was extremely uncomfortable wearing it - she couldn't wait to cover herself up everytime her breasts were exposed.  I felt bad for her having to walk that catastrophe down the runway, and even worse for her when Zac was pulling open the jacket to examine the top.  For Gods' sake - it was so bad was there any reason to further embarrass the model?  

 

There were so many different ideas going on and not one of them was executed well.

 

Tinkerbell and fairies??  WTF?  That outfit should be sent to Neverland, as in "Never to be seen again-land"!!!  

 

It was clear that Nina does not like Lindsay, and that was more the reason she was eliminated than the fact that her dress was "boring" (and, yes, it was boring compared to the other garments).  Nina had that "something smells bad in here" look on her face when speaking to and about Lindsay.

 

I have to begrudgingly say that Candice's was probably the best, but she can be insufferable.  She really does think she is a know-it-all and above everyone else. She sounds like she is trying to mentor everyone else - newsflash - Tim Gunn already holds that position.  

Perhaps Candice sees, like many of us, that Tim seems to be bored with his position and is jockeying to be his replacement.

 

As for the TG save, yes - I think he is saving it for Ashley who is the designated victim of the season; however, a small part of me wonders if in a week or two, he will suddenly have an announcement for the designers and tell them that he is bringing back Jake (?) because he feels badly about him having to leave over his dog.  Actually, when he told them he had an announcement this week, I thought that is what he was going to say.

Edited September 27, 2015 by English Teacher

[slothgirl]

Perhaps Candice sees, like many of us, that Tim seems to be bored with his position and is jockeying to be his replacement.

 

As for the TG save, yes - I think he is saving it for Ashley who is the designated victim of the season; however, a small part of me wonders if in a week or two, he will suddenly have an announcement for the designers and tell them that he is bringing back Jake (?) because he feels badly about him having to leave over his dog.  Actually, when he told them he had an announcement this week, I thought that is what he was going to say.

I was wondering that too (Jake). On the other hand, I think it would be funny if he saved the save for Ashley and she never needed it, thereby letting the save go unused. Currently the expectation of contestants and viewers is that the save will be used at some point, but they don't ever actually say that. They say IF Tim disagrees with an auf, he can bring the contestant back.

 

Since he seems to care little about any of these "designers", I have to wonder if he would even care if they just said next episode "You all suck... we're sending you all home and not going any further with this travesty, much less declaring a winner and having any of you show your crap at Fashion Week"

 

Oh wait... I forgot... according to the judges, they just had one of the best runways EVERRRRRRR! or some such BS.

 

But it would be an interesting twist if the save goes unused.. remind viewers and contestants down the road that they can't count on it.

 

Or they "eliminate" the runner up and declare a winner, only to have Tim say "Nope... I don't agree with that final elimination... bring back the runner up" Ha.

Edited September 27, 2015 by slothgirl

[Julia]

I know most of the posters here have come to despise Candice, but I think she killed this challenge. That was a hell of an outfit, and the best one of the week by far. I get that some may say it's "safe" for her, or samey-same to everything else she's done, but I think she simply has a consistent design point of view and varies pretty well within that box. She may (or may not) be some kind of evil scheming mean girl/b-word (that's debatable since I think it was never personal with her), but she's a good designer nonetheless.

 

I don't despise her (and I am capable of serious PR grudgewanking, MICHELLE AND HELEN AND MONDO). It wouldn't bother me if she won. I was just really enthusiastic about her after she stuck up for Merline (who was, I think, getting the pile on edit), and then her performance in the team challenge disappointed me. I don't think she's teh evol, I just don't think she's as impressive as I did.

The person who really annoyed me this season just went home, but it's even hard to work up a head of steam about that, because I think she was pretty much cast because they regretfully decided that they couldn't bring Amanda back a third time.

 

Someone should remind Nina that she's not exactly in her early 20's and instead is pushing 50, so she should cut it out with the ageism bullshit. I'm in the former age category and even I find her attitude irritating. She's such an killjoy with a permanent bitchface. No idea how someone this inarticulate could get hired to dole out criticisms (protip: form your thoughts in your head before you start speaking so you don't take 5 minutes to say a simple sentence).

 

If PR wants to improve the show, the should can her ass asap.

Well, her job is to market aspirational clothing to 20-30somethings. Acknowledging that her actual market is women her own age wouldn't help.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Julia

[TexasGal]

The other thing very ironic about the whole mumsy/matronly thing is that I have much more disposable income at not-quite-fifty than I did at not-quite-twenty. Do you want to sell $100 pants or do you want to sell $19.99 pants? I like those mumsy/matronly/boring designs. I would get laughed out of my office and my job title if I wore some of the crap that gets pushed, including some of Michael Kors' current collections.

Yes! I'm early forties and have finally reached a career level/income where if I really love something I will buy it regardless of cost.

  

Regarding the "mumsy" or "matronly" critiques and how they are perceived on the forum, if it has the same meaning than in French ("mémère"), it's not a question of our "real" age, but of our "fashion sense" age... A twenty-something could perfectly be "mumsy", and an eighty-something edgy.

 

So I think I'm wrong, because some people here seems to be offended and I don't get it :(

I get what you're saying - but it seems like you are more thoughtful about this than they are. I am super psyched for fall because it seems like boho style is back, which I love. So I guess, even though I am not "young" age wise I'll be rocking the current fashion.

[NewDigs]

Regarding the "mumsy" or "matronly" critiques and how they are perceived on the forum, if it has the same meaning than in French ("mémère"), it's not a question of our "real" age, but of our "fashion sense" age... A twenty-something could perfectly be "mumsy", and an eighty-something edgy.

 

So I think I'm wrong, because some people here seems to be offended and I don't get it :(

Those are great thoughts but I think our little panel of objectors telegraph their opinions opposite to yours by using wrinkled noses, groans and rolling eyes. Makes feel old.

And count me in as another "of a certain age" who now has a bit more disposable income. I have found that better clothes might cost more but they sure last longer. And usually require less care, ie ironing etc.

[Julia]

I don't have a dog in this race, because I'm a middle-aged person, and I started dressing like [a middle-aged person] long before I was one, but that's the problem. My style isn't middle-aged. It's dowdy. It was dowdy when I was twenty-five, and more than that years later, it's still dowdy. The woman who just retired from running the parent company to the company I work for, otoh, is ten years older than I am and the most rigorously chic person I've ever met, and nothing she wears wouldn't look spectacular on a twenty year old. 

 

It's kind of like using gendered- or racial- or orientation-coded words as insults. What you end up saying is "No, I'm not using [word] as an insult because I think [being/having] a [word] is a bad thing. There's just a strong cultural stereotype of what [word] means and the person I'm insulting fits it." Well, sure. But you're also perpetuating a cultural stereotype which you say you know isn't accurate. And maybe you shouldn't, especially if the people you're making all the money off of are the ones you're insulting.

 

But then, the fashion industry is pretty much built on making women feel horrible about themselves so they'll be willing to spend obscene amounts of money to try and fix how hideous they are, and that's not likely to change.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Julia

[poppy-]

I think matronly is a fine critique.

 

I think it's like in Top Chef where they insult food when they call it "hotel food."  Hotel food = pleasing to many, not necessarily cheap, but not art. Great chefs make innovating foods that sometimes trickle down to become trendy hotel foods, but creativity never starts at the hotel.  Top designers theoretically are similar, they make striking fashion that inspires real life brands - expensive brands included.

 

Really, though, they're designing for Marie Claire, and want clothes that are marketable to (but aspirational for) 25-35 year old women.

[Bebecat]

We are getting a bit OT here...but will chime in to say that fashion in general is making a big mistake to basically "ignore" women 40+. There are many millions of us, often with money and plenty of interest in clothing, just as there are in the Plus market. I am in my fifties and single again after decades of marriage and love fashion and dress my age or thereabouts (maybe a bit "youngish" but never involving revealing flesh or tightness). I am always looking for classic, attractive clothing that is well made and not "mumsy".

Also...this season needs a shot in the arm badly. The Broadway challenge was a bore to me and it should have been exciting. Hoping for better to come lol.

[Lnmop]

My fashion model niece snarks that what models say are their measurements, and what their measurements actually are, have been known to differ.

Don't they have, oh, I don't know, TAPE MEASURES in the workroom?

Also, the hair and styling have been sub-par this year. Even the judges have stopped mentioning them.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Lnmop

[Diane Mars]

We are getting a bit OT here...but will chime in to say that fashion in general is making a big mistake to basically "ignore" women 40+. There are many millions of us, often with money and plenty of interest in clothing, just as there are in the Plus market. I am in my fifties and single again after decades of marriage and love fashion and dress my age or thereabouts (maybe a bit "youngish" but never involving revealing flesh or tightness). I am always looking for classic, attractive clothing that is well made and not "mumsy".

Also...this season needs a shot in the arm badly. The Broadway challenge was a bore to me and it should have been exciting. Hoping for better to come lol.

 

I'm 46. I pick a piece here, another there, and I've got my own style. The "same" since my 20's (a kind of sporty-punkish, but always feminine style, even with quite no make-up). It still works, it's still mine, and it's still edgy, because... it's mine and it's me. And no, I'm not "ridiculous", even if I wear a glitter "Hello Kitty" T-shirt, with a nice vintage jean, a pair of high end boots and a nice leather jacket...

 

All that just to say that if you have a style which is yours, and that you're not waiting for X ou Y to show you what you HAVE to wear this season, you'll never be frustrated... Ok, I'm biased here, because when I REALLY want a piece and that I don't find it, I customise one who could be to suit what I want, or I create the it. But you get the sense

[Broderbits]

I don't think I've ever heard the regular judges deny taking into account someone's past efforts when deciding who to auf. When deciding the winner, yes, they claim to only consider the current outfit. But when choosing who to send home they're always asking each other things like "do we want to see more" and "is so-and-so just having a bad day".

 

The fashion industry, like so many others, values youth above pretty much everything else; this alone makes me question not only the taste but the motives of many "arbiters of style". I follow the couture collections for fun, I sew what I can't find in stores, I'm comfortable in my skin and whatever covers it.

[windfall]

Also, the hair and styling have been sub-par this year. Even the judges have stopped mentioning them.

 

I don't pay close enough attention so I could be completely wrong bout this, but I do feel like every model gets some variation of having their hair slicked back. I don't even remember the last time we had some bouncy curls, or flowing waves for a hairstyle.

[iggysaurus]

It's kind of like using gendered- or racial- or orientation-coded words as insults. What you end up saying is "No, I'm not using [word] as an insult because I think [being/having] a [word] is a bad thing. There's just a strong cultural stereotype of what [word] means and the person I'm insulting fits it." Well, sure. But you're also perpetuating a cultural stereotype which you say you know isn't accurate. And maybe you shouldn't, especially if the people you're making all the money off of are the ones you're insulting.

 

I think you're right on, here.  If they aren't trying to insult older people based on *actual age* but yet they are using "old" (or matronly/mumsy whatever) as an insult, they should just find a new word that isn't tied to a specific demographic.  Why can't they just say certain designs are "dowdy" or "frumpy" or "not fashion forward" and refrain from linking it to an age group? After all, I'm sure Nina, Heidi, et al would agree that there can certainly be fashionable, cutting edge women in their 50s+, as well as women in their 20s who completely lack style. 

[Honey]

I want to know when Tim is going to have the big blowup at all of the designers, that's been written about.

 

Also, don't think the terms matronly and mumsy are ageist, I think of them as a fashion style.  Just because someone is over 40, doesn't mean their clothes have to be matronly, and a twenty year old could very well wear matronly clothes.  I think of the terms as meaning out of style and boring.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Honey

[auntlada]

I think that's what people mean when they say those words (or at least I hope so), but "mumsy" carries the connotation (to me) of "that's something your mother would wear." Like "mom jeans." Because mothers aren't fashionable. (That's not me saying they aren't. I think that's the fashion world saying it. The only thing worse than being old is being an old mother.)

[slothgirl]

Also, don't think the terms matronly and mumsy are ageist, I think of them as a fashion style.  Just because someone is over 40, doesn't mean their clothes have to be matronly, and a twenty year old could very well wear matronly clothes.  I think of the terms as meaning out of style and boring.

"Matron" means "a married woman, especially a dignified and sober middle-aged one" (not including the definition of matron that means someone in charge of a group)

 

So saying that "matronly" doesn't have to mean anything about age is a nice thought, but flies in the face of the actual definition of "matron". It would be like claiming that a junior saying someone is dressing like a freshman doesn't mean anything bad about freshmen since a senior could dress like a freshman. It clearly denotes a negative association with a group that the speaker looks down on.

 

In the case of "matronly", the group is "matrons". Sure a young person can dress in clothes that others might call "matronly" and a married middle age woman could be stylish. But to assign the term "matronly" to a specific look that one is denigrating, IS ageist because "matron" is a term partly defined by age.

Edited September 30, 2015 by slothgirl

[PepperMonkey]

Back again to inflict my opinions on everyone else: OH MY GAWD the hairstyles/ styling from Sally "Beauty" Studio are just terrible. It's all pony tails or slicked back, as someone else mentioned. I don't know if it's the product OR the stylists or both. It makes the Mary Kay makeup look positively awesome. And honestly, to be fair, that MK guy has sent some decent looks out to the runway. I still miss moustache guy, though.

 

Also, I never thought of matronly or mumsy as having anything at all to do with age, when I stop and think about it. I've probably griped about Heidi and Nina's ageism, but I don't honestly think they mean mature, or over 40 or even over 50, when they say matronly. I don't mind mumsy too much, because it reminds me of mimsy and Lewis Carroll. I prefer mumsy as an adjective over matronly or mother of the bride.

[mansonlamps]

I wasn't even sure mumsy was an actual word used in the United States, so I looked it up and the definition (defined as British use) is "Giving an impression of dull domesticity; dowdy or unfashionable."  So I guess it really doesn't have anything to do with age, but it's kind of affected IMO.

[Tony]

I don't think I've ever heard of "mumsy" being used on the show. It's "matronly" that they beat to death. And then "mother-of-the-bride" is the kiss of death.

 

However, "mature" is another that they like to throw around. That word IS ageist.

[NewDigs]

I think that Michael Kors used to use "mumsy".

I miss Michael.

I don't think that the designations of Mother of the bride and bridesmaid are necessarily agesit. I don't think of age but instead mentally scroll through numerous weddings and see some real crap.

[Calamity Jane]

I think that Michael Kors used to use "mumsy".

I miss Michael.

I don't think that the designations of Mother of the bride and bridesmaid are necessarily agesit. I don't think of age but instead mentally scroll through numerous weddings and see some real crap.

I miss the Michael of the first seasons, but my recollection of the last couple he was on is that he seemed both bored and irritated, and strained for a witty jibe much harder than he tried to say anything constructive.  That I don't miss. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I am 99% sure that I have heard mumsy a few times this season. I don't remember who said it, but it was either Heidi, Nina, or Tim.

[slothgirl]

I'm pretty sure Tim has said "mumsy" a couple of times this season at least

[mansonlamps]

I am 99% sure that I have heard mumsy a few times this season. I don't remember who said it, but it was either Heidi, Nina, or Tim.

I've definitely heard Heidi say it, and I'm almost certain Nina as well.

[NewDigs]

Didn't Zac call something "momsy" this Make it Sell episode?

Well, that's how my cc wrote it, anyway.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Yes, NewDigs, that's correct!!  They were throwing all those euphemisms at Swapnil's wrap.