S17.E40: Episode 40

[goofygirl]

I have never been so happy as when Steve evicted Vanessa.  Thought she was a smelly dork with all the crying and swearing on her family, her girlfriend, her DOG... Just no. and Go. Away. and take those dumb hats with you. And I'm glad he won over Liz!

Also glad that James won America's Choice. I know he perked things up around that funky house, so good on him!

Thought Dr. Will looked kind of weird.  I used to think he was SUCH a good looking young man, and now... Not so much.  Maybe it's the Hollywood living?

Finally, enjoyed reading ALL YOUR COMMENTS!!!! See you next summer!

[lookattheflowers]

I think it is BOTB, Battle of the Block.

Yes, this is what I meant! Sorry!

[Brian Cronin]

The thing I think I hated the most about the final part of the HoH is how they cut the HGs off before their answer and then when they pressed play, the HGs took a beat before their answer. You don't need to take a fucking beat if they're going to cut you off before your answer! I know that the show told them to do that, just to be safe, but it was moronic.

 

Shelli's best moment was..."winning Hoh, duh!" or "meeting Clay, duh!" They make their picks and then we cut to Shelli. "My favorite moment was...............winning Hoh, duh!" Why the pause? Why the pause?!?!?

[AbsoluteShower]

The thing I think I hated the most about the final part of the HoH is how they cut the HGs off before their answer and then when they pressed play, the HGs took a beat before their answer. You don't need to take a fucking beat if they're going to cut you off before your answer! I know that the show told them to do that, just to be safe, but it was moronic.

 

Shelli's best moment was..."winning Hoh, duh!" or "meeting Clay, duh!" They make their picks and then we cut to Shelli. "My favorite moment was...............winning Hoh, duh!" Why the pause? Why the pause?!?!?

A show producer would probably say it's done to create dramatic tension. Everyone else would say it's because the answers are scripted for them...

[TexasChic]

 

Where did Steve imply he had a secret?  The feeds?

Sorry, I actually thought I was on the live feeds thread!

[LoneHaranguer]

 

I'd bet cash money that Steve's secret is that he's still a virgin.

He is, but he told some of the others, so it wasn't a secret. I presume Austin knew and his comment about the boy becoming a man was a play on words since Steve screwed Vanessa (figuratively).

[TexasChic]

It's sad, I thought he was so rakishly handsome during his first season, and think a few wrinkles would look better than the fake, shiny baby-bottom look.

Agreed, he was sexy as hell back then. He's still a very good looking man IMO, just no where near the level of hotness of his first season. I'm guessing as a dermatologist he feels the need to use his face as a walking advertisement, and it probably works, but it does look odd.

[SteveAC10]

 

The worst part is that final HoH comp. Honestly, after having worked so hard to win the first and second round of the HoH comp, to have it all come down to what's basically a coin toss? They might as well ask them to pick a number between one and ten. The "questions" are clearly something the writers posed to the jury members, possibly even the two choices, and are so generic with two equally plausible answers, it's a total crapshoot. There's no skill or ability whatsoever involved here.

I really think the HG who has played the more successful social game still has a leg up in the quiz. A HG who only gets to know his/her side, or is there strictly because they were a comp beast is less likely to get the answers correct than someone who has interacted with all of their fellow HG's, shot the shit and listened to peoples rants and stories. Vanessa's interactions with almost everybody were entirely game. If she had no game business with someone she couldn't be bothered to give them the time of day. She had every possibility laid out to the last skittle and was a relative challenge beast, but she didn't interact with anyone on a personal level.

Edited September 25, 2015 by SteveAC10

[Ceeg]

I really think the HG who has played the more successful social game still has a leg up in the quiz. A HG who only gets to know his/her side, or is there strictly because they were a comp beast is less likely to get the answers correct than someone who has interacted with all of their fellow HG's, shot the shit and listened to peoples rants and stories. Vanessa's interactions with almost everybody were entirely game. If she had no game business with someone she couldn't be bothered to give them the time of day. She had every possibility laid out to the last skittle and was a relative challenge beast, but she didn't interact with anyone on a personal level.

I disagree. At least wrt Vanessa vs. Steve's social games. I don't think Steve played some exceptional social game, where he interacted with all the jurors about their personal lives. He didn't know Meg, James, or Jackie at all. I'm not sure he really interacted that much with Becky either. Vanessa definitely was better friends with Julia, Austin, and Shelli. She also had a lot of personal talks with Jackie when they were co-HOHs together. Actually, as far as I know, Vanessa is the only person in the house who Jackie told that her parents were both cops. Vanessa also talked with James and John a lot too, at various stages of the game, but especially John, about music and dentistry and relationships. The only person on the jury I don't think Vanessa ever got close to or familiar with was Meg. 

 

Obviously, Vanessa talked a ton of game with people, but I don't think she had less personal conversations with the jury than Steve did. Austin had the best relationships with everyone in the top 11, and I still don't know how good he'd be at that final HOH comp, because you never know wtf a juror will say at any given moment.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Ceeg

[North of Eden]

Snap! Two season in the row with PATHETIC winners! Last year while technically a master mind Derrick ruined any suspense or enjoyment on the game with the mixture of his charisma free personality and his stranglehold on the game...and now this year. Steve who was the INVISIBLE MAN for most of the summer swoops in and takes home the half million...he can say all the convoluted things he wants but he coasted...I know because I saw him do it.

 

Good news for Austin though he might have shot with Liz now because if she won she would have dusted him instantly...the $50 K after taxes will probably be gone quick so she may wish to hang onto ol' Judas to plunder some cash and extra 15 minutes of fame with personal appearances of "The Austwins"

 

Not sure what was funnier...Julie's perceived audio problems making Steve start his speech three times or her instant boredom with the prejury boots that she has to cut away after the first question to return the focus back on Vanessa.

 

In short Vanessa really should have won the game...I don't like her...I don't think a millionaire needs any more money...but she did play the best game.

 

At least the episode was redeemed by James winning fan favorite! I cheered.

[Newbietunes]

Took me a while, but I realized what the ending to this season reminded me of:  Amazing Race Canada Season 2.  A team from the gold medal winning Olympic women's hockey team dominated that season, but finally lost the game to a pair of stoner snowboarders.  I did actually like those guys, and I like Steve too, but...it's frustrating is all.

 

On the bright side:  Austin suffers "humiliations galore"!

 

Anyway, great season overall, both on TV and PTV.  I think I have said this before, but I'll say it again:  these forums are most intelligent discussion that can possibly be had about such a stupid show.

[SteveAC10]

 

Steve who was the INVISIBLE MAN for most of the summer

He was only invisible on air. I'm sure the show runners assumed he was cannon fodder and ignored him until he started to win comps. He was actually around on the feeds as much as any HG. The producers were too invested in twins, double showmances, and Johnny's diaries.

[Nashville]

I'd bet cash money that Steve's secret is that he's still a virgin. Whatever, he'll probably have people throwing themselves at him now although he doesn't seem likely to want to "catch" anyone.

 

Keep your bet small; that's not a secret.  In fact, I'd be willing to bet the inverse applies; Steve's secret is either that he's gay, or that he's not a virgin.  Maybe a drunk one-nighter at the frat house in Cornell, but still enough to disqualify.

[Former Nun]

In short Vanessa really should have won the game...I don't like her...I don't think a millionaire needs any more money...but she did play the best game.

 

 

Wealth, poverty, or need shouldn't enter into whether a player deserves to win.  Vanessa was the better player by far, but almost everyone who was in the final 5-6 DESERVED to win because of having to put up with her relentless questioning, deal-making, crying, stare-downs, monologues, etc.  It was pure torture to watch.  It had to be HELL to have to sit there and take it.

[bobthefrog]

Keep your bet small; that's not a secret. In fact, I'd be willing to bet the inverse applies; Steve's secret is either that he's gay, or that he's not a virgin. Maybe a drunk one-nighter at the frat house in Cornell, but still enough to disqualify.

I don't think it's that he's not a virgin bevause he told Vanessa that part of the reason he's still a virgin is because of "the secret". I'm relatively convinced that it is indeed something about his sexual orientation.

Edited September 25, 2015 by bobthefrog

[ProfCrash]

Vanessa didn't make it to the finals and so she did not deserve to win. You have to make it to the finals. She was close but she came up short. That sucks but such is life. Rob C. was in the same place in Survivor Amazon, he lost the last challenge and was voted out by Jenna. If he had made it to the finals he would have won. He is in an even worse position because the next bunch of seasons were final three.

 

I am a firm believer that the person who wins a season of any reality show deserves the win. I don't believe in bitter jurys. The finalists have to deal with the path that they took to the finals and make the best of it. Liz's answers were awful. Horrific even. She didn't practice a speech or think of what type of things she might be asked. Did she assume that she would lose against Vanessa so why bother? Clearly she didn't think that Steve was going to take her to the finals. Heck, for that reason alone Steve deserves to win.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Steve's secret is either that he's gay, or that he's not a virgin.

Why would his not being a virgin need to be a secret? He's well over the age of consent. Whatever, I forgot that he'd already told people he was a virgin, and I wasn't planning to make any speculations on his sexual orientation. I'm almost starting to feel sorry for the guy because in some ways he seems like such a child emotionally.

[Ceeg]

I'm almost starting to feel sorry for the guy because in some ways he seems like such a child emotionally.

Literally having an emotional breakdown into his teddy bear while crying to his mommy cemented that for me. Steve got a good edit on the show, considering all the stuff they omitted in episodes.

[Cutty]

I re-watched the episode last night, skipping through the competition and filler -- so it literally took me 10 minutes. Anyway, I'm laughing at Johnny Mac saying he protected Steve in the game. The guy who spent the summer sleeping, didn't win a single HOH or form any kind of meaningful alliance with anyone -- the closest he came to forming an alliance was when he agreed to be Clelli's doormat early in the game. His "I'M SO HAPPY TO SEE ME BEST FRIEND AGAIN" dig after Vanessa joined the jury was also cringe inducing. So thankful this cheap Bobcat Godthwait knockoff didn't win AFP.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Cutty

[Former Nun]

So thankful this cheap Bobcat Godthwait knockoff didn't win AFP.

 

 

I'm happy that James won, but would have been happier if your cheap Bobcat Goldthwait knockoff had come out on top.  He was smart and entertaining and I could see some strategies working throughout most of the season.

[Sweets McGee]

Vanessa didn't make it to the finals and so she did not deserve to win. You have to make it to the finals. She was close but she came up short. That sucks but such is life. Rob C. was in the same place in Survivor Amazon, he lost the last challenge and was voted out by Jenna. If he had made it to the finals he would have won. He is in an even worse position because the next bunch of seasons were final three.

 

I am a firm believer that the person who wins a season of any reality show deserves the win. I don't believe in bitter jurys. The finalists have to deal with the path that they took to the finals and make the best of it. Liz's answers were awful. Horrific even. She didn't practice a speech or think of what type of things she might be asked. Did she assume that she would lose against Vanessa so why bother? Clearly she didn't think that Steve was going to take her to the finals. Heck, for that reason alone Steve deserves to win.

Didn't win = didn't deserve to win simplifies it too much. Sometimes in sports, the best team gets beat not because they're not actually the best team, but because of some random circumstance in one game. That randomness is the reason we watch things like sports and reality TV. Vanessa was the best player this season even though she didn't win.

 

Steve deserves his win, for getting to the finals and getting the jury votes. The best thing he did was evict Vanessa and not pull a Cody. So many people have made that mistake over the years so mad props to him for getting it right.

[tinderbox]

...Steve deserves his win, for getting to the finals and getting the jury votes. The best thing he did was evict Vanessa and not pull a Cody. So many people have made that mistake over the years so mad props to him for getting it right

.

Perfectly stated and I agree.

 

...His "I'M SO HAPPY TO SEE ME BEST FRIEND AGAIN" dig after Vanessa joined the jury was also cringe inducing.

Cringe inducing? I loved it. Looked to me like Vanessa was insulted by it. Good. Edited September 25, 2015 by tinderbox

[Mom2twoNonna2-3]

IMO Steve deserved it because he did what no one else was smart enough to do. Vanessa used everyone to get to F3 and they let her. Steve used her to get to F2 and booted her because he knew that she wasn't going to take him to F2. That alone gives him the win in my opinion. I'm happy with his win.

 

Vanessa used everyone, but, wouldn't own her game. She cried and apologized too much. You made a move, own it, be proud and move on. She cried and used that "female" tactic to save herself.  Steve cried more because he truly felt the anxiety and that's how it came out.

[Ceeg]

Vanessa used everyone, but, wouldn't own her game. She cried and apologized too much. You made a move, own it, be proud and move on. She cried and used that "female" tactic to save herself.  Steve cried more because he truly felt the anxiety and that's how it came out.

Why is it when Vanessa cries it's because she's "female" and using it for her game, but when Steve does it, it's bc he's a poor widdle anxiety ridden manchild? What about when Steve cried after he evicted Jackie, and then when everyone left the room, he looked at the camera and said "50% acting"?

[K-9]

He came close, but luckily Johnny The Dentist didn't use the metaphor of Vanessa as the lion's head Steve needed on his wall. #cecilthelion

[iMonrey]

 

I really think the HG who has played the more successful social game still has a leg up in the quiz. A HG who only gets to know his/her side, or is there strictly because they were a comp beast is less likely to get the answers correct than someone who has interacted with all of their fellow HG's, shot the shit and listened to peoples rants and stories.

 

That would be true if the jury members weren't being spoon-fed scripted statements written by the show that are so generic it isn't even specific to them necessarily. For example, the producers sit down Shelli and say "OK Shelli, this is what we want you to say: "My favorite part of being in the house was when I won HoH, duh!"" I mean  . . . . they literally just came up with something generic for her to say and offered Steve and Vanessa two equally plausible endings to that statement. Shelli's own mother wouldn't have known which one she might have said. It wasn't something she originated organically in a conversation with one of the HGs it was just some random line the producers fed to her. Neither Steve nor Vanessa has any advantage in this "competition." It's a coin flip.

 

 

Not sure what was funnier...Julie's perceived audio problems making Steve start his speech three times or her instant boredom with the prejury boots that she has to cut away after the first question to return the focus back on Vanessa.

 

That's what I meant by what a freaking mess the finale is production-wise. They bring out the six pre-jury boots, ask Devon a question and suddenly there's a producer screaming in Julie's ear "Wait! Wait! We forgot to do the big Vanessa reveal, go back to her!" 

 

So thankful this cheap Bobcat Godthwait knockoff didn't win AFP.

 

I have a feeling John really dropped in popularity after he was evicted and then said he'd go after Meg if he got back in the house. I know that was a big head-scratcher for a lot of fans and a clear sign he had no clue how to play this game.

[Stinamaia]

I know I'm late to this party, but it seems to me that Vanessa was using Steve, but didn't hide it from him very well. Steve was also using Vanessa and hid it from her much better. In listening to an interview with Vanessa, it seemed she was unaware of a lot of Steve's game play. I noticed when Steve gave his answers Vanessa was making a lot of faces as if she didn't believe what he was saying or was surprised or disagreed -- not sure what the faces meant.

Anyway that seems to me to be the area where Steve outplayed Vanessa. She now says that she was unsure he would take her to the final two, but in the DRs she sounded sure that he would.

[MitaJo]

Vanessa didn't make it to the finals and so she did not deserve to win. You have to make it to the finals. She was close but she came up short. That sucks but such is life.

THIS! As good as she was at the game she blew it. Even if it was a crap-shoot. She overestimated her "control" over Steve and she failed to get herself to Final 2. Too bad, so sad.

 

I know I'm late to this party, but it seems to me that Vanessa was using Steve, but didn't hide it from him very well. Steve was also using Vanessa and hid it from her much better. In listening to an interview with Vanessa, it seemed she was unaware of a lot of Steve's game play.

Yes! She got too cocky and it bit her in the ass. Reading some snippets of Steve's interview with Jeff and one of his strategies with Vanessa was to make her believe that her manipulation of his was working and that he was her little puppet. He played that part really well. So what if he gets nervous and cries a little bit. I admit to being like that when I have to have a confrontation or even speak in public. I don't like it and I damn near pass out at the idea of having to do it.

Edited September 26, 2015 by MitaJo

[Wootini]

That final quiz is always a crapshoot because most of the responses don't sound right. Which is why if it's true that Steve just answered "A" to every single one as someone suggested upthread, that might be a genius move. I remember thinking during it as I kept guessing wrong that I would've done better to just pick A or B every time and stick with that. Which might just be the secret to winning that asinine final part of he last HoH! (Nobody tell any future contestants!)

[Guest]

I don't think it's that he's not a virgin bevause he told Vanessa that part of the reason he's still a virgin is because of "the secret". I'm relatively convinced that it is indeed something about his sexual orientation.

Steve did look a little disappointed when John just replied with a firm NO when Steve asked him if he'd ever made out with a guy.  Not that Steve wanted to make out with John (or maybe he did, no judgement, I'd make out with John) but I wondered if he would've liked to have someone to at least talk about it to.  Or to hear that someone he looked up to did have some occasional inclinations or experimentation.  

 

Not that I'm suggesting Steve is gay or that that would be anything is bad.

 

And if he was a virgin Wed. night, here's hoping that now-winner Steve has many more options from whatever gender appeals to him very soon!  

[Stinamaia]

If Steve wants to keep something secret, that's okay with me. I don't need to guess or speculate or even know.

I think both he and Vanessa had some disagreeable aspects to their games. I rooted more for Steve because he seemed an underdog. I've been impressed with his interviews because he seems to regard it solely as a game and isn't placing personal judgments on anything. He says he didn't feel Vanessa bullied him. He sees her intimidation as part of her game play which is fine with him as long as there aren't threats of violence etc. he doesn't think she crossed the line. He played up his weakness -- such as getting his stuffed toy. He also didn't mind Johnny Mac saying he was the worst alliance partner ever because he was. He had no interest in any alliance unless it helped his game. But he did say he found it very very difficult to cut Vanessa and that is why he didn't sleep.

[nkotb]

I am fascinated by all of your assessments, even though I disagree with some of them. The writers on this board usually think more about the game than some of the actual participants, in my opinion.

 

I've thought a lot about sexism in the game. I'll be upfront that although I'm a female, I'm far from a feminist, but I really don't see that much sexism in the show this season. If Vanessa had been in the final 2 with Steve, she'd have won hands-down. I did not like her at all...at all...but I agree that she played the best game of the season, and she deserved to win. However, ultimately, Steve lucked-out and won that final HOH & was smart enough to not take the season's best player, because he knew he'd lose to her. I also did not like Liz at all...at all...but I think the difference in her and Steve, to me at least, was that she was in a showmance with the biggest brute in the house, plus her twin was in the house, so she had two built-in strong alliances (I know she & Austin didn't know each other pre-game, but he was a puppy at her feet and she knew that). Steve navigated on his own, and had to trust people that he couldn't be 100% sure of, whereas Liz didn't have that obstacle. I also think Austin was a shield for Liz (& Julia), so she wasn't so much a good player as she was in a good, strong, unpenetratable (I make up words sometimes) alliance. In my opinion, though, if Steve had been in the finals against Shelly, he'd have lost handidly, just like he would've against Vanessa. I don't think the gender of his opponent was the issue, I think it was the way they played the game, in my opinion.

 

Where I do think sexism came into play was with Vanessa's jury vote. I have no doubt that if Vanessa had won & booted Steve, she'd have definitely received his jury vote, whereas Vanessa's girl-power vote for Liz just reeked of sexism and maybe a bit of sour grapes.

[Stinamaia]

That final quiz is always a crapshoot because most of the responses don't sound right. Which is why if it's true that Steve just answered "A" to every single one as someone suggested upthread, that might be a genius move. I remember thinking during it as I kept guessing wrong that I would've done better to just pick A or B every time and stick with that. Which might just be the secret to winning that asinine final part of he last HoH! (Nobody tell any future contestants!)

I just checked, and indeed Steve did answer A to each question. This is one aspect of game theory that Vanessa overlooked. That was quite a strategic and brave thing to decide to do.

Also Vanessa said congrats to Liz. Was that for the final two or because Vanessa thought Liz would win?

Edited September 25, 2015 by Stinamaia

[Guest]

I just checked, and indeed Steve did answer A to each question. This is one aspect of game theory that Vanessa overlooked. That was quite a strategic and brave thing to decide to do.

Do you think Steve actually planned to guess all As?  I think that if you have no clue at all, go ahead and have a guessing plan.  But I feel like those were guess-able things for someone thoughtful who lived there.  So the all As thing was probably purely coincidental.  Who knows, though.  

[Nashville]

Steve deserves his win, for getting to the finals and getting the jury votes. The best thing he did was evict Vanessa and not pull a Cody. So many people have made that mistake over the years so mad props to him for getting it right.

This, in spades.

And now for my master's dissertation: :)

To everybody who says Vanessa played one of the best games in BB history but got cheated of her win by one question - upon reflection, I must respectfully but seriously disagree. Vanessa played a very good game, to be sure - it got her to F3, after all - but it was not a GREAT game, and definitely not one of the best BB games ever.

I not say this simply because she lost - although, to be perfectly honest, that's a little bit of empirical evidence which is mighty hard to ignore. :) More precisely, I say this because of HOW Vanessa lost, which was a combination of two factors:

• Her "playing too hard" game style. When Vanessa saw a strategic goal she went for it balls to the wall - no problem with that, insofar as competitive drive is a requirement for a winner. Her method of pursuit of that goal, however, left much to be desired. Whenever V met resistance, her countermeasure usually consisted of (a) unleashing upon her hapless obstacle a veritable deluge of machine-gun-fire verbalization and tears (Cue Waterworks!™), and (b) maintaining the flood until the resistor capitulated simply to escape the verbal/emotional barrage. Effective? Yes - in the short term. In the long term, however, this tactic generated resentment in the HGs upon whom it was inflicted, especially after multiple repeat performances. V freaked out when JMac even suggested that some might consider her tactics "bullying", but I don't see how anybody could argue with any intellectual honesty the notion her verbal/emotional groundpounding attacks were not overtly coercive to some degree. Such tactics foster neither loyalty nor fidelity - more on this later.
• Lack of a comprehensive backup plan. V's stated goal was to reach F3 with two halves of split HG pairs which were antagonistic to each other, on the assumption each would ally with her against the other - and she achieved that goal, so far as it went. Problem was, it didn't go far enough. It's curious, really; Vanessa is an ardent chess enthusiast, but she apparently never articulated to herself how to prepare for the transition from midgame strategy to endgame strategy - or, indeed, an endgame strategy at all. Austin's and JMac's evictions were necessary for completion of V's midgame strategy, but V had to know there'd be fallout in the form of loss of trust on both sides; she's too good of a strategic thinker not to. Before reaching midgame completion, therefore, V should have already been initiating her endgame strategy which should have consisted of engendering trust and loyalty in the remaining split-halves - and not just loyalty, but fidelity - a overriding level of loyalty which, in the event V didn't win out final HoH, could compel the winner to take her to F2 in opposition to the winner's own self-interest. This Vanessa did not do. Instead of taking positive action to repair with Steve and Liz the breaches of trust created by her DIRECT betrayal votes to evict Austin and JMac, Vanessa continued her negative plan of attack with Steve of continually trying to reinforce the notion Vanessa was his only logical choice for F2 because Liz had too many friends in Jury. And Liz? Except for occasional "Let's bash Steve" sessions to occasionally reinforce the Girl Power theme, Vanessa basically "forgot" Liz after FHoH Round 2, dismissing Liz as powerless to affect the outcome.

A truly GREAT player would have found a way to sway both other F3 finalists to take him/her to F2 regardless of the FHOH outcome. Vanessa did not. Not only did V not attempt to engender additional loyalty or fidelity in either Steve OR Liz, she never even attempted to repair the loyalty breach of JMac's eviction with Steve, or Austin's eviction with Liz. Vanessa basically left herself with NO way to F2 except to win out FHOH; V didn't do that, so basically she was toast.

And lest anyone claim what I'm outlining here is impossible, or too impractical for reality with actual humans - please keep in mind this is EXACTLY what Derrick did last season. You may not like the guy or his methods, but his results are undeniable. :)

[Ceeg]

 Not only did V not attempt to engender additional loyalty or fidelity in either Steve OR Liz, she never even attempted to repair the loyalty breach of JMac's eviction with Steve, or Austin's eviction with Liz. Vanessa basically left herself with NO way to F2 except to win out FHOH; V didn't do that, so basically she was toast.

 

Liz was absolutely taking Vanessa to the F2, had she won that last HOH. She and Vanessa got super close after Austin's eviction.

 

I think Vanessa's biggest mistake was underestimating Steve. I don't think it really had anything to do with her not securing his loyalty at the end. She never truly had that, and had no chance at getting it ever. Steve wanted to cut her when Shelli was on the block next to Vanessa. There's pretty much nothing Vanessa could have said or done with Steve, any time after Shelli's eviction, that would have secured his loyalty. Because Steve witnessed the Power of Vanessa and her ability to talk herself out of situations, and no way was he ever going to take her with him long-term. 

So, IMO Vanessa's biggest game flaw wasn't that she messed anything up strategically or even socially. It was that she underestimated Steve and how he viewed Vanessa as a game player. Steve consistently said that he left his morals at the door, and Steve was loyal to Steve. That's it. He would have cut anyone to secure his chances at winning that money.

 

I think we, as viewers, were able to see a much different Steve than the one Vanessa saw. His constant anxiety over everything certainly helped to mask his true intentions and feelings about his fellow F&G members.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Ceeg

[Guest]

The more I think about that last HOH question the more I like it.  Like Vanessa, I thought, "B!  No dentist is going to call it gross to deal with teeth!"  But this wasn't John the dentist playing so much as Johnny Mac the goofball.  I think Steve saw that because he used his knowledge of John the guy over his logic, so in a way trusted his gut over his brain.  Vanessa's game was all in her brain, I think, and it wound up being her downfall.  

[candall]

 

I personally don't believe they were relegated to subordinate roles of any kind, except what they themselves created for themselves. 

By "women relegated to subordinate status," I meant historically, as in the history of this country.  Sorry for the confusion.  Had to clear that up.  I don't think anyone puts Baby in the BB corner.

Edited September 25, 2015 by candall

[Nashville]

Liz was absolutely taking Vanessa to the F2, had she won that last HOH. She and Vanessa got super close after Austin's eviction.

Almost certainly so, and I believe Liz when she says it - but I also think there's more than a grain of truth in the notion Liz's brain pretty much went in Idle gear strategically following the loss to Steve in R2. After all - why not? Control of her game-life has pretty much been taken completely out of her hands; one of the R3 players will decide it, and Liz thinks she has slim odds with V and no chance with Steve of being taken to F2. If, however, Liz had won R2 - and then had several days to think about it - I can't help but think Liz might have given serious consideration to the notion Steve might be easier to beat in F2 than Vanessa. In any case, it's a moot point - but fun to consider. :)

 

I think Vanessa's biggest mistake was underestimating Steve.

No argument there. :D

I don't think it really had anything to do with her not securing his loyalty at the end. She never truly had that, and had no chance at getting it ever. Steve wanted to cut her when Shelli was on the block next to Vanessa.

Not so much wanted, IMHO, as saw the necessity for it. Initially that week, remember, the entire House was united in anticipating V's eviction. V's departure was virtually a foregone conclusion - and for Steve to have bucked the trend would have resulted in at least some level of ostracism, if not outright Game suicide. It wasn't until Block-mate Shelli got SO overconfident in this inevitability as to start playing Swipe-Clay's-Shirt-From-James that V found a niche to exploit, and V exploited the hell outta it. :)

There's pretty much nothing Vanessa could have said or done with Steve, any time after Shelli's eviction, that would have secured his loyalty. Because Steve witnessed the Power of Vanessa and her ability to talk herself out of situations, and no way was he ever going to take her with him long-term. 

Actually I think V had a golden opportunity immediately after Shelli's eviction to pull Steve into what could potentially have been the most solid F2 alliance of the season, and she squandered it out of simple spite.

Even though Steve DIDN'T betray Vanessa - at most he showed initial hesitation when V asked for his vote, AND he voted to evict Shelli - Steve still felt extremely guilty over the situation. Vanessa had a perfect opportunity to exploit Steve's guilt, "forgive" him for his hesitation, and strengthen their bond. Instead, V decides it's better to ream Steve for being a disloyal little shit and try to blow up his game to the entire House. Which option do YOU think would engender more loyalty? Hint: it sure as fuck ain't Option 2. IMHO thiscornholing more than anything else ruptured the loyalty bond between Steve and V.

[Rina99]

Not so much wanted, IMHO, as saw the necessity for it. Initially that week, remember, the entire House was united in anticipating V's eviction. V's departure was virtually a foregone conclusion - and for Steve to have bucked the trend would have resulted in at least some level of ostracism, if not outright Game suicide. It wasn't until Block-mate Shelli got SO overconfident in this inevitability as to start playing Swipe-Clay's-Shirt-From-James that V found a niche to exploit, and V exploited the hell outta it. :)

 

 

Yes, I remember Steve getting flack for not being "loyal", but for me that was when I realized that as much as he might admire John and Vanessa, he would never sacrifice himself for either one of them.  And I do remember that when Vanessa first asked Steve for his vote, he did hesitate but asked to talk later, most likely to get a feel for the house.  And if he had been able to find out that the vote was flipping due to James being pissed at Shelli, he probably would have shrugged and given Vanessa his vote.  But as you said, Vanessa decided to go on a rampage.  After that she never really had Steve again, and he was much more calculated about using her as a shield vs just being with her because he liked and admired her. Like you, I believe that this was ultimately the moment that cost Vanessa, because prior to that I do think he would have taken her over anyone.  He also found out around this time that she had other deals in the house, so realized that he was not her #1 in any way, shape, or form.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Rina99

[Ceeg]

Actually I think V had a golden opportunity immediately after Shelli's eviction to pull Steve into what could potentially have been the most solid F2 alliance of the season, and she squandered it out of simple spite.

Even though Steve DIDN'T betray Vanessa - at most he showed initial hesitation when V asked for his vote, AND he voted to evict Shelli - Steve still felt extremely guilty over the situation. Vanessa had a perfect opportunity to exploit Steve's guilt, "forgive" him for his hesitation, and strengthen their bond. Instead, V decides it's better to ream Steve for being a disloyal little shit and try to blow up his game to the entire House. Which option do YOU think would engender more loyalty? Hint: it sure as fuck ain't Option 2. IMHO thiscornholing more than anything else ruptured the loyalty bond between Steve and V.

Yeah, I just disagree with this. Steve was never going to be loyal to Vanessa. His lack of loyalty came before she called him out about it. He had spent a week and a half plotting her demise (with the Austwins and John), and that all happened before Vanessa fought with him about it.  Steve is not the kind of BB player who is going to be loyal to one HG the whole way through without cutting them at some point. Unless he feels he is better than that person. Steve did what was in Steve's best interests, and no matter what, taking a player who evicted 12 out of 15 HGs is not anything Steve the BB Superfan would ever do. Vanessa could have kissed his ass from Week 5 until the finale night, and he still wouldn't have brought her to F2 IMO. He even told Rob Cesternino that he grew out the beard and let Vanessa spike his hair so that she would believe she was controlling him. Apparently, everything Steve did with her was very calculated, and that pre-dates the Backdoor Vanessa plan.

Like you, I believe that this was ultimately the moment that cost Vanessa, because prior to that I do think he would have taken her over anyone.  He also found out around this time that she had other deals in the house, so realized that he was not her #1 in any way, shape, or form.

Steve's F2 with John happened before his F2 with Vanessa.

 

The funny thing is that Steve actually really was Vanessa's #1 for a while. If she hadn't found out about him trying to get her out, I actually believe she would have taken him to F2. 

Edited September 25, 2015 by Ceeg

[Stinamaia]

Vanessa would never have taken Steve over Liz.

[Ceeg]

When I say I think Steve really was Vanessa's #1 and she would have taken him, I'm talking about around Weeks 3 thru 6ish. Maybe even Week 2, I can't remember. They were very, very close for a while, and other than Austin on Day 2 (which I don't think was an actual 100% solid F2 deal), Steve was the first person Vanessa ever made a Final 2 deal with and shook on it. They had many, many strategy sessions, and Steve was her main confidant for a long time in the game. That's part of the reason why she reacted so insanely when she found out he was part of an alliance to get rid of her. She didn't react that way toward Austin and the twins because she viewed Steve as her closest ally in the game. I think also Steve sharing The Secret with her also helped to cement in her mind their tight bond.

 

Now, as soon as she realized she didn't have Steve's vote on lock when she was on the block, that put doubts in her head, which were confirmed by Johnny Mac two weeks later. But I absolutely think she was sincere in her F2 deal with Steve before all the trust and loyalty issues happened between them.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Ceeg

[Porterest]

 I have a feeling John really dropped in popularity after he was evicted and then said he'd go after Meg if he got back in the house. I know that was a big head-scratcher for a lot of fans and a clear sign he had no clue how to play this game.

Personally, I thought he was being facetious when he said Meg--some of his say what people don't expect type responses. Like disparaging his profession on national TV.

[jumper sage]

I have never been so happy as when Steve evicted Vanessa.

 

 

I know I'm late to this party, but it seems to me that Vanessa was using Steve, but didn't hide it from him very well. Steve was also using Vanessa and hid it from her much better.

 

 

I am so glad Vanessa lost!  She is just so smarmy and thinks she is just so smart and conniving.  This kind of thinking never works well in BB.  She sure was pissed she was evicted and I loved Austin's reaction.

 

I think Liz was genuinely glad Steve chose her and was glad to get 50k.  I think she was shooting for the 2 in final 2 and it worked.  She got 50k.

[Stinamaia]

When I say I think Steve really was Vanessa's #1 and she would have taken him, I'm talking about around Weeks 3 thru 6ish. Maybe even Week 2, I can't remember. They were very, very close for a while, and other than Austin on Day 2 (which I don't think was an actual 100% solid F2 deal), Steve was the first person Vanessa ever made a Final 2 deal with and shook on it. They had many, many strategy sessions, and Steve was her main confidant for a long time in the game. That's part of the reason why she reacted so insanely when she found out he was part of an alliance to get rid of her. She didn't react that way toward Austin and the twins because she viewed Steve as her closest ally in the game. I think also Steve sharing The Secret with her also helped to cement in her mind their tight bond.

Now, as soon as she realized she didn't have Steve's vote on lock when she was on the block, that put doubts in her head, which were confirmed by Johnny Mac two weeks later. But I absolutely think she was sincere in her F2 deal with Steve before all the trust and loyalty issues happened between them.

ALL of Vanessa's final two deals were sincere as long as she thought she could beat them. Vanessa thought Steve was more of an outcast and would be a good goat When she first made the deal. She also thought (rightly) that she could milk him for details about competitions and strategy. To me, she respected his intelligence but not his game play. She was quite dismissive of him several times.

To me one is not on a morally higher plane than the other, Both were loyal as long as it benefited themselves, When it did not benefit them they were not. For me the difference is that Steve freely admits this while Vanessa wants to maintain some kind of faux integrity such as saying she had a deal with Liz that they would vote for one another if either was evicted to explain her vote for Liz. I say faux because she could have said, "I am honoring my deal" when she cast the vote, but she chose to say something totally garbled about voting for the person who would best represent the season. Vanessa simply cannot stop spinning.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Stinamaia

[yankee1151]

Well. I didn't love this outcome - Steve was my last choice of the final 3 in terms of rooting interest - but given the way it all went down, he definitely deserved it. I'm bummed that V lost on a crapshoot, but I knew Steve was no Cody and he made the smartest (only) move for his game.

 

Liz disappointed me. I'm pretty sure the jury had their minds made up (seems to always be the case ever since this finale format came into play) but man she tanked those questions, big time. When Steve was talking about she was in a hotel for weeks while Julia was in the house, Liz had a perfect opportunity to point out that this put her at a huge disadvantage - she was completely out of the game loop for all that time and had to adjust each and every time. Five minutes in the DR with her sister isn't going to help much. Furthermore, she could have flipped the "Austin controlled the twins" narrative on its head and pointed out that she and Julia acted as Austin's shield BY BEING TWINS and yet everyone viewed him as the bigger target. She won more comps than Austin, and when the twins ended up on the block together, THEY ACTUALLY CONVINCED THE HOUSE TO LET THEM DECIDE WHO WENT, AND IT WAS THE TWIN WHO HADN'T WON DICK. 

 

Liz's problem is that she's a poor public speaker, but she should have realized this and ACTUALLY PREPARED. Her recruit status really, really showed big time. She literally thought there was no chance Steve would evict Vanessa, and she knew she'd lose to Vanessa, so she never entertained the possibility that she could, you know, WIN. Maybe she couldn't, but I think had she practiced her speech as much as Steve did (emphasized comp wins, played up how deciding to confirm the twin thing to her alliance while still playing it off to the rest of the house solidified her and Julia for the long haul, talked about how she had a major hand in saving Austin the week he was supposed to be backdoored - including singlehandedly winning that BoB - and actually won more for her alliance than anyone besides Vanessa, etc etc)... well, I think she would have had a fighting chance. Maybe not (I think the jury's dislike for Austin cost her votes too), but Steve's manic rambling was not super impressive and had he had an opponent who was able to clearly articulate strategy, well... I don't know. But rambling or not, he MADE POINTS. Liz's yammering sounded like an "I know I'm getting evicted" speech.  "What a great summer! I love you all!!" Ugh.

 

Steve did manage to get Vanessa to underestimate him big time, though. Even though it wasn't the result I was hoping for, I think for that he ultimately did deserve it over Liz (something that despite Liz's shitty F2 performance, I wasn't convinced of until I listed to aftershow interviews). Bummed V kicked ass all season and got third, but that's the nature of the beast... However, I'll NEVER be happy with the fact that (regardless of who I'm rooting for in any given season) the final HOH is LITERALLY a crapshoot. Someone else suggested have the answers be things the jurors said in DRs - that would way less manipulative on the part of production and actually MIGHT give the edge to the person who knew the HGs best. This way might as well be a coin flip. Props to Steve if he "did the math" and really did intentionally answer "A" to every question, though. 

 

Definitely a better season by far than the last two though. I'm amazed I didn't actively hate anyone in the F3. That never happens. And my victory was Austin's blindside. :)

[ennui]

I kind of suspected Steve might win wwaaaaaayyyyy back in the beginning, when his mom said he's been watching it since he was a little kid, first season (?). He seems like a studious sort, introverted, taking notes.

 

I'm fine with his win. I didn't hate any of the finalists. As someone said, Vanessa played well enough to win (but not quite, eh?), and Liz didn't really play much, except with Austin (ew).

[kikaha]

When I say I think Steve really was Vanessa's #1 and she would have taken him, I'm talking about around Weeks 3 thru 6ish. Maybe even Week 2, I can't remember. They were very, very close for a while, and other than Austin on Day 2 (which I don't think was an actual 100% solid F2 deal), Steve was the first person Vanessa ever made a Final 2 deal with and shook on it.

 

Ceeg, I think Vanessa's fatal flaw was that she ruled too much by fear.  The others were terrified of her wrath, if they crossed her in any way.  Nashville gave a real good example of that.  There were many others. 

 

Obviously she lost on a crapshoot.  I think a great player would not have gotten stuck in that position though.  If she had engendered more love than fear, she might have gone to F2, no matter who won the last HOH. 

 

As several have pointed out, Vanessa played almost the entire house the entire game, but Steve played Vanessa.  He completely snowed her.  That, plus luck at the end, brought him the win and left her in third. 

[ProfCrash]

I just checked, and indeed Steve did answer A to each question. This is one aspect of game theory that Vanessa overlooked. That was quite a strategic and brave thing to decide to do.

Also Vanessa said congrats to Liz. Was that for the final two or because Vanessa thought Liz would win?

Vanessa figured it out pretty fast and did the same thing. I think the only time either one of them answered B was when they felt confident that was the answer. I noticed it as they were playing.

 

Steve was called out for his crying and whining on the boards as it was happening. No one seemed to be overly impressed with his tears or his behavior. I would say that I didn't see a difference in reactions to the tears used by Vanessa or Steve. Vanessa simply cried more so there were more words devoted to it.

 

Liz's responses were awful. She should have known that the twin twist and Austin were going to come up in the questions and prepared. She didn't prepare at all and it could not have been because she didn't expect Steve to take her. She expected Vanessa to take her so she should have been thinking about what she was going to say to the Jury. Even if she hadn't seen the show before she should have assumed that "Jury" means that you have to make your case for winning. It was blatantly obvious that she had not thought through the final scenario. She sounded awful. Even if Shelli, Becky, and Meg wanted a woman to win I don't think they could justify voting for her after that awful performance.