NFL Thread

[blueray]

I'm not sure if I should post but here it is. I was in a good mood yesterday and decided that I did everything I needed to get done, I could catch the second half of the game (before going to bed as I had to work today). Anyhow, I turned in on long afterwards put quickly realized why there wasn't a game.

It is just terrible :(. I'm glad that they didn't force them to resume play, though it sounds like the NFL wanted them too. My thoughts go out to him and his family. 

[Colleenna]

4 hours ago, Calvada said:

I saw a story on Chris Pronger, the NHL player who took a slap shot to the chest and suffered cardiac arrest on the ice.  Eerily similar in that he took a step or two before collapsing, just like Hamlin getting up and then collapsing.  Pronger was very fortunate; he recovered fully and returned to playing.  The key was getting immediate medical assistance.  

I give the NFL and all involved a bit of a break for the chaotic response in that first hour or so following Hamlin's collapse, given that this was not like other injuries on the field.  I also wonder if anything would have been different if this had been a Sunday game, one of many happening at the same time.  This was a national broadcast and players across the league were reacting as it was happening.  A few years ago in a regional office of the organization I work for, an employee died in the office.  It happened in her individual office; it was estimated she died at least 30 minutes before she was found.  There were many varied reactions - people who couldn't stop crying, people who wanted to go back to work, people who sat quietly in shock, and so on.  People said and did things that later they had no memory of saying or doing.  A traumatic incident causes a traumatized response.  

The league's plans for a sudden stop to a game probably are more focused on some type of terrorist incident - person runs onto the field with a gun type of scenario.  They've probably thought more about a coach suffering a massive heart attack on the field than the possibility of a player needing CPR.  

 

On opening day  1996, home plate umpire John McSherry collapsed and died behind home plate, about 10 minutes into the game. Needless to say,  the game did not continue. As an avid baseball fan, I was watching the game on TV, because OPENING DAY! I honestly can't remember if they rescheduled the game. 

[Danielg342]

3 hours ago, Carey said:

The players/coaches and others decided that they weren’t going to continue.  That is so understandable, so give them the tie.  That would not help Buffalo if KC wins

The Bills centred their entire season around finishing first in the AFC so (the thinking goes) they wouldn't have to face the prospect of losing a third straight playoff game at Arrowhead Stadium.

The Bengals, too, probably don't want to go to Arrowhead, even though they won there last year. A win last night would have given Cincinnati a chance to tie KC at the end of the season, and we know Cincy has the tiebreaker.

A tie puts both the Bengals and the Bills behind the Chiefs. It would eliminate the Bengals from being able to tie the Chiefs at the end of the season and it would mean that Buffalo no longer controls its own destiny with wrapping up No. 1 overall.

I mean, it's one thing if that outcome came because the two teams played the game and the two teams wound up in a tie. That's on the teams for that performance.

...but, if Buffalo and Cincinnati were to lose out on No. 1 overall because of Damar Hamlin's health scare it would feel like they're both being punished for it. That really does not sit well with me.

We can quibble about whether or not this year the Bills and Bengals have the capability to beat the Chiefs in the playoffs no matter where the game is played. That's not the point.

The point is, if Kansas City were to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl by virtue of them beating both Buffalo and Cincinnati at home, both teams would be up in arms. They would feel like they lost the Monday Night Football game even though neither team did anything to deserve losing that game.

Worse, there would be people who would blame Hamlin for their team's misfortunes, and the league would look like they're hurting both clubs for what happened to Hamlin even though neither team is (or should be) at fault for what happened to him.

So, "no" to a tie.

The only solutions for me is to give both teams a win (though the Ravens would be up in arms about that) or find a way to finish the game at another date.

There's just too much at stake from a competitive standpoint to go with the simple solution. A tie arguably wrecks the competitive integrity of the season, since it would work against both teams through no fault of their own.

As for when that game can be replayed...I know that's tricky and it may be trickier yet still. I'm not sure Buffalo and Cincinnati are in any position to play their Week 18 games, let alone this postponed game. As long as Hamlin is in the hospital, I don't know how you can ask both teams to play this week. They would surely not be able to prepare for it mentally and it would be unfair to ask them to.

The timing of Hamlin's injury is absolutely terrible (among the many other things that are terrible about his condition). There's no question about that.

...but, it doesn't mean all is lost. NFL executives are paid big bucks to figure out good solutions to problems like this and now it's time for them to earn it. At the end of the day, I'm sure everyone in the NFL universe will get behind whatever solution is proffered, because it's not like anyone asked for this situation to happen.

Regardless, it's imperative to take the time to do it right. Let's not make more of a mess because we wanted to go "the easy route" instead of figuring out the right one.

[Chit Chat]

The one positive thing that came out of last night was seeing how everybody (players & fans) came together and put their energy together in order to lift this young man up in prayer (or silent meditation/positive thoughts) and took a step back and saw how unimportant football was in that moment.  With all of the craziness in the world these days, seeing people unite in their concern over one person was actually good to see.  He will be so touched that so many people donated to his charity too.  

[Moose135]

2 hours ago, Colleenna said:

On opening day  1996, home plate umpire John McSherry collapsed and died behind home plate, about 10 minutes into the game. Needless to say,  the game did not continue. As an avid baseball fan, I was watching the game on TV, because OPENING DAY! I honestly can't remember if they rescheduled the game. 

The game was resumed the following day. Being it was opening day, they had a lot more options on when to complete the game, and usually there is an open day scheduled after opening day in case of a weather postponement.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Moose135

[Chit Chat]

Roger Goodell and those in charge are in a bit of a tough spot right now.  They want to be sensitive to Damar and his family, but they have to address rescheduling the game (or not).  Maybe they're waiting to make sure Damar is going to be okay.  If the worst happens (I pray it doesn't), none of those players would give a damn about playing that game.  Hopefully he will make a speedy recovery.  Then talk about rescheduling won't seem insensitive to the situation. 

[Calvada]

To my knowledge, the NFL has never NOT continued a game following a severe injury (Dennis Byrd, Mike Utley, etc.) and even when Reggie Brown stopped breathing on the field back in 1997 when he suffered that severe neck injury, they continued the game.  When Gary Kubiak had a stroke on the field while coaching a game, it was continued.  So I can understand the officials and players thinking at some point the game would start up again. 

[Carey]

Here was what I was planning to post in terms of playoff seeding or my predictions (which went off of my October pick of the Bills to beat Cincy):

AFC: Kansas City, Cincinnati, Buffalo, Jacksonville, Los Angeles, Baltimore, Miami

NFC: Philadelphia, San Francisco, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, Dallas, New York, Green Bay

No point in posting even a brief version of the playoff clinching scenarios.  Instead, here is where you can find the most detailed stuff.  I believe it factors in both cases of the game resuming or being called off

[mojoween]

Korey Stringer died and Minnesota played the entire season.

This may just be me, but I wish the only news coming out was something official.  It just seems weird to hear stuff from friend/marketing agent and his uncle.

[Black Knight]

4 hours ago, Moose135 said:

Somewhere last night, I saw mention that it might have been the refs who told the teams they had a 5-minute warm up period before restarting the game, as that is the standard for an extended delay, and that the refs don't have the authority to do more than that. They may have given that instruction to the teams while waiting to hear more from league officials.

That feels a bit to me like the league throwing the refs (who are never popular) under the bus. The refs were on the field watching Hamlin being given CPR, just like the players. They are human beings, same as the players and the fans, and my guess is that like everyone else in the stadium they were standing numbly, crying, praying, hugging or something of that nature, not worrying about needing to get the game going again within a certain time frame.

I really don't think the refs were giving the teams a "5 minutes and then we resume play!" instruction unless their boss, the NFL, specifically told them to do so. Looking at their conversations with the coaches, it did not feel like that came from them, and that they felt like it was totally understandable that the coaches wanted to take their teams off the field instead - plus the coaches were not showing any signs of arguing with the refs or vice versa. That decision has all the feel of someone who wasn't present at the stadium.

[Bastet]

All 32 NFL teams changed their Twitter profile pictures to this:

 

[Lady Whistleup]

Apparently Damar needs his ventilator 50% less today. I hope this is good news.

[roamyn]

3 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Apparently Damar needs his ventilator 50% less today. I hope this is good news.

It might be in regards to lung function, but I think the bigger picture is brain function.  Even tho he was receiving CPR, that only does so much.  He was in cardiac arrest for nine minutes.  There may have been damage going so long w/o full blood circulation.  

Those tests take time, and some cannot be done until he awakens.

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, roamyn said:

Those tests take time, and some cannot be done until he awakens.

Which makes me wonder how the Bills and Bengals can play this weekend. The longer Damar Hamlin's status is unknown the harder it will get to talk those two teams into playing again.

[DrSpaceman73]

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/buffalo-bills-safety-damar-hamlin-031258776.html

 

This article states he had to be resuscitated again at the hospital. Not a good sign. 

[merylinkid]

I had NFL network on last night for updates and they had a doctor on.   Apparently, after 24 to 48 hours they start bringing him out of the medically induced coma (which is what he is in, not just sedated) slooooowly.   Then they check brain function.    Because @roamynI had the same thought, 9 minutes of CPR is a LONG time for oxygen to not get to the brain.   Still hoping for a good outcome.

As for the Bills, asking them to continue MOnday was not possible.  I don't know.   They might have to step up and play.   I can see the coaches just doing walk throughs of the game plan.   It's week 18, they don't need full padded practices anyway.   Just let their muscles remember the play.   

[Danielg342]

I want to throw this out there.

I know Tee Higgins didn't mean to hurt Damar Hamlin. However, he did lead with his helmet- like many runners do- and I'm beginning to wonder if that is a rule change the NFL needs to consider.

We already tell defenders that they can't lead with their helmets, so I wonder if offensive players should be similarly barred. From a fairness perspective it doesn't seem right that defenders are forbidden from the act but offensive players are not.

4 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

They might have to step up and play. 

Mentally, they might not be there. You can do all the walkthroughs you want, but if the team's coaches and players are not at a mental capacity to focus on the task at hand, then it's all fruitless.

I mean, I'm not even sure if the Bills have even left Cincinnati yet. It wouldn't surprise me if the team is still there. They are likely stressing very hard for Damar Hamlin, especially since everything is still "touch and go" at the moment. I still don't know, barring a miracle recovery (and even then) you can ask the Bills to play on Sunday.

[emma675]

22 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

I mean, I'm not even sure if the Bills have even left Cincinnati yet. It wouldn't surprise me if the team is still there. 

The team and staff flew back very early Tuesday morning, around 1:00 am. 

[mojoween]

Awkward transition, but they were talking about Tom Brady on LeBatard and it made me wonder - how many current, active players were not yet born as of Brady’s first start after Drew went down?

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I know Tee Higgins didn't mean to hurt Damar Hamlin. However, he did lead with his helmet- like many runners do- and I'm beginning to wonder if that is a rule change the NFL needs to consider.

We already tell defenders that they can't lead with their helmets, so I wonder if offensive players should be similarly barred. From a fairness perspective it doesn't seem right that defenders are forbidden from the act but offensive players are not.

Tackle football is inherently a violent sport no matter how many rules and tweaks you put in - what happened to Hamlin is tragic, but also a fluke.  If we're going to be concerned about the safety of the game, what about all of the players who have suffered permanent brain damage without ever being carted off the field?  Want to get rid of the hits?  Make it a flag football league.

[Fukui San]

4 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I want to throw this out there.

I know Tee Higgins didn't mean to hurt Damar Hamlin. However, he did lead with his helmet- like many runners do- and I'm beginning to wonder if that is a rule change the NFL needs to consider.

We already tell defenders that they can't lead with their helmets, so I wonder if offensive players should be similarly barred. From a fairness perspective it doesn't seem right that defenders are forbidden from the act but offensive players are not.

Mentally, they might not be there. You can do all the walkthroughs you want, but if the team's coaches and players are not at a mental capacity to focus on the task at hand, then it's all fruitless.

I mean, I'm not even sure if the Bills have even left Cincinnati yet. It wouldn't surprise me if the team is still there. They are likely stressing very hard for Damar Hamlin, especially since everything is still "touch and go" at the moment. I still don't know, barring a miracle recovery (and even then) you can ask the Bills to play on Sunday.

I believe that it’s already a penalty for a runner to lead with his helmet. I remember running back Stevan Ridley getting knocked out of a game after getting tackled by a big hit and also getting penalized on the play. 

Edit: My memory may be faulty. The rule seemed to have passed in 2018, which is after the Ridley fumble in 2013, which was a no call. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Fukui San

[Notabug]

5 hours ago, emma675 said:

The team and staff flew back very early Tuesday morning, around 1:00 am. 

There were several Bills players who chose to remain behind in Cincy.  The team allowed the players to decide for themselves whether they wanted to stay or not.

The Bills are holding a meeting and walkthrough practice today with no media availability.  It appears that players who choose not to participate are not going to be penalized.

Quote

6 hours ago

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/buffalo-bills-safety-damar-hamlin-031258776.html

 

This article states he had to be resuscitated again at the hospital. Not a good sign. 

Not so good at all.  He suffered two cardiac arrests within a very short period of time.  BTW, despite what you see on TV, the odds of surviving an out of the hospital cardiac arrest are around 10% and a significant proportion of survivors will have neurologic consequences.  Surviving 2 in a row is even riskier.

While it is nice that he is needing the ventilator less, it is worrisome that he needs it at all almost 48 hours post arrest.  They said he had something going on with his lungs, it could be that he aspirated (vomited and inhaled stomach contents) in the course of events on Monday.  That can lead to needing ventilation for a while.  However, I think it is at least as likely that there are signs that he is not neurologically able to completely breathe on his own and needs the ventilator to help him.

I'm a Gyn, not an intensivist and I know Dr Spaceman also doesn't do much ICU work; but I think it is not terribly reassuring that he still needs a ventilator at this point.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Notabug

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

Not so good at all.  He suffered two cardiac arrests within a very short period of time.  BTW, despite what you see on TV, the odds of surviving an out of the hospital cardiac arrest are around 10% and a significant proportion of survivors will have neurologic consequences.  Surviving 2 in a row is even riskier.

Here's the latest information from the friend seemingly designated by the family as a spokesperson.

He disputes that he needed to be resuscitated twice.  He says the uncle misspoke. 

And that's why I'm hesitant about the medical information.  They've been very vague, rightfully so, about what has happened.  The only thing that has been confirmed was that he went into cardiac arrest.

[Notabug]

10 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Here's the latest information from the friend seemingly designated by the family as a spokesperson.

He disputes that he needed to be resuscitated twice.  He says the uncle misspoke. 

And that's why I'm hesitant about the medical information.  They've been very vague, rightfully so, about what has happened.  The only thing that has been confirmed was that he went into cardiac arrest.

Yeah, it is a little odd to me that there has been no official medical spokesperson thus far.  I am sure the hospital has received multiple requests from the media to conduct some sort of press conference to discuss what happened as well as his current condition and prognosis.  The fact that they haven't may be because the family doesn't want them to comment, although certainly we've had more than a couple of family members and friends providing commentary.  It could also be because the doctors do not want to outline the specific difficulties he is having and the possibility of a poor long term outcome.  Fair enough, but I think the latter is more likely than the former and his doctors have told the family (and maybe the NFL) that it would be best not to provide detailed information to the public.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Notabug

[bluegirl147]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nfl-reporter-says-league-may-160201332.html

No matter what they decide to do people are not going to be happy.

 

[Carey]

Exactly.  Not counting a Chiefs game is dumber than the empty tie.  Unless the game is the one won at Raymond James Stadium (it wasn't on the schedule this time 2 years ago).

To be fair, both Buffalo and Cincinnati beat Kansas City

[bluegirl147]

12 minutes ago, Carey said:

To be fair, both Buffalo and Cincinnati beat Kansas City

Yes.  Based on that alone nothing should be done that unfairly benefits KC.

There is no easy answer. My thought is they push the playoffs back a week and Buffalo/Cincy play next weekend.

No matter what happens the AFC playoffs will always be looked at as what would be different if Hamlin hadn't got hurt.

[Carey]

Actually, there does appear to be an easy answer.  The was a poster that posted something very interesting.  I usually don't link to Twitter stuff unless it's "valid" material.  I still will not since it usually shows up full by default here.

It's basic: Push the AFC wildcard weekend back one week.  Having Bills/Bengals that same weekend.  Then the following weekend, the NFC Wildcard is off while the AFC wildcard gets to play.  The divisional & championship rounds are a week later and Pro Bowl weekend is either done away with or moved to President's Day weekend

[Danielg342]

First of all, I don't know how the Bills and Bengals can play their respective games this week but I've belaboured the point so I won't make it again.

As for seeding question, though I understand that wasn't an "official" statement, the Ravens need to be considered too. If Cincinnati had lost to Buffalo, then Baltimore could have beaten Cincinnati for the AFC North title. So, when it's all said and done, we need to preserve their opportunity as well.

Maybe you make a blanket statement that says that if Buffalo and Cincinnati win their Week 18 games (or Kansas City loses) then Buffalo and Cincinnati would rank ahead of Kansas City for seeding purposes. Also, if Baltimore beats Cincinnati, then Baltimore wins the AFC North.

Of course, then the complication becomes the San Diego Los Angeles Chargers, who could have presumably finished 11-6 alongside Cincinnati. That's not an easy tiebreaker to sort out because if Cincinnati loses to Baltimore they'd have a 7-4 conference record and the Chargers would have an 8-4 conference record. I suppose if we're assuming that the Ravens-Bengals game is for the division then we're assuming a Bengals loss to the Bills (the only way Ravens-Bengals would have mattered to begin with).

Which, I guess, means for seeding purposes, a Cincinnati loss to the Ravens  and a Chargers win means the Chargers finish ahead of Cincinnati, giving the Chargers the #5 seed and Cincinnati the #6 seed.

Phew. Has your head exploded yet?

I thought about the neutral site idea and think maybe that's something the NFL ought to consider not just for this year but for the future as well. Winning the conference should mean something and putting it at a neutral site may bolster that point.

Heck, maybe in future years we could be even bolder and allow 12 teams per conference into the playoffs. In this case, the four division winners would all get first round byes, and the conference semi-finals all the way to the Super Bowl would be held at a neutral site (which could just be the site of the Super Bowl to keep things simple). This would make winning the division special and put the conference semi-finalists on a roughly equal footing when the games matter most.

Of course, then I'd miss the possibility of the Bills being able to enjoy the benefits of welcoming in some warm weather team to the snowy paradise that is Buffalo, a great advantage when hosting the conference championship game.

...but, in today's bloated NFL, the conference championship ought to matter more, and we've got an opportunity to try something that would enhance it. I'd like to see where that could go, if nothing else.

[DrSpaceman73]

No....I HATE, HATE,HATE the idea of any neutral sight playoff games.  Hosting a playoff game is great for fans of the host team.  Nothing like it. A neutral sight conference championship game I would detest more than anything. The superbowl is for corporate big wigs and not many regular fans. Now you are going to take away the conference title game from the fans too unless they travel for it?  Absolutely not. 

I still think best solution for the game is call it a tie for purposes of standings and seeding but officially game just never finished.  

[DrSpaceman73]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

Yeah, it is a little odd to me that there has been no official medical spokesperson thus far.  I am sure the hospital has received multiple requests from the media to conduct some sort of press conference to discuss what happened as well as his current condition and prognosis.  The fact that they haven't may be because the family doesn't want them to comment, although certainly we've had more than a couple of family members and friends providing commentary.  It could also be because the doctors do not want to outline the specific difficulties he is having and the possibility of a poor long term outcome.  Fair enough, but I think the latter is more likely than the former and his doctors have told the family (and maybe the NFL) that it would be best not to provide detailed information to the public.

There really would be much to say now. He's sedated they have to wait to wean the sedation and see if he improves. Wont really know much about prognosis for 5 to 7 days. 

Also not the doctors job to hold a press conference snd keep anyone up to date except the family. Plus there are hipaa laws.  

[Lady Whistleup]

The lack of information is usually not good. In my experience, it’s often so either the family can get to the hospital to visit or end of life palliative care can be given so he remains comfortable.

[blueray]

I thought of something they could do but I'm not sure it would work. They give the Bill's and the Bengals a tie or rather not count it. This way they don't have to resume the game. And get rite of the bye week. This way it doesn't matter who is in first. As these two teams played one less game. Then of course add in whichever team comes in 8th (as a fourth wildcard). And everyone plays the first week. They'd have to put in one more game.

This of course doesn't resolve home field advantage if the division was undecided by the missing game.

40 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

The lack of information is usually not good. In my experience, it’s often so either the family can get to the hospital to visit or end of life palliative care can be given so he remains comfortable.

Unfortunately I have to agree. I work in the Medical field and this is the case often...

Edited January 4, 2023 by blueray
Spelling

[meowmommy]

37 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

The lack of information is usually not good. In my experience, it’s often so either the family can get to the hospital to visit or end of life palliative care can be given so he remains comfortable.

Nobody's doing palliative care on a previously healthy 24-year-old less than 48 hours after an acute incident. 

The lack of information could be as simple as the family declining to give permission under HIPAA.

[Black Knight]

CBS Sports has an article up about the available options for resolving the Bills/Bengals game.

In a nutshell, the least disruptive option is to cancel the game and decide team standings based on winning percentage. And this option does exist in the rulebook.

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, Carey said:

It's basic: Push the AFC wildcard weekend back one week.  Having Bills/Bengals that same weekend.  Then the following weekend, the NFC Wildcard is off while the AFC wildcard gets to play.  The divisional & championship rounds are a week later and Pro Bowl weekend is either done away with or moved to President's Day weekend

I saw that scenario posited by Andrew Brandt, a former agent, team exec and current professor/media person.  It's an intriguing idea but I can't see the AFC being happy that their Superbowl team would miss out on the rest week.  Plus, the first week of the break is usually practice since the second week is such a show.

1 hour ago, meowmommy said:

The lack of information could be as simple as the family declining to give permission under HIPAA.

Yep.  Except I don't agree that there hasn't been any information.  The Bills Organization has released official updates daily.  The family has also released statements through Damar's friend/marketing rep. 

It's controlled and non-specific bits of information but it's info.

[Chit Chat]

2 hours ago, meowmommy said:

The lack of information could be as simple as the family declining to give permission under HIPAA.

So true.  Maybe they're hoping the media circus will go away.  They seem to appreciate everybody's concern, but I'm sure they just want to focus on Damar and not have to worry about all of the media speculation going on.   I'm sure they'll update the public when they're ready to.  As a mom, that's what I'd want. 

[Chit Chat]

I hope the players will be okay too.  I'm sure that most of them are traumatized by witnessing the whole thing.  Some of them are so young too.   It will take a while for the shock to wear off, then maybe they can better process it all.  Hopefully Damar will be okay, and the guys can rally around him and boost his spirit.  That will help his teammates too.  I'm sure they're feeling pretty helpless at the moment. 

[Court]

1 minute ago, ChitChat said:

I hope the players will be okay too.  I'm sure that most of them are traumatized by witnessing the whole thing.  Some of them are so young too.   It will take a while for the shock to wear off, then maybe they can better process it all.  Hopefully Damar will be okay, and the guys can rally around him and boost his spirit.  That will help his teammates too.  I'm sure they're feeling pretty helpless at the moment. 

I hope Tee Higgins is ok. I saw a report today that he is feeling an immense amount of guilt. He is not to blame but I can't imagine being in that position. 

[DrSpaceman73]

4 minutes ago, Court said:

I hope Tee Higgins is ok. I saw a report today that he is feeling an immense amount of guilt. He is not to blame but I can't imagine being in that position. 

I feel bad for tee. Not his fault?  

Anyone remember Ray Mancini and doo koo Kim boxing match in early 80?  Doo koo Kim died after the match. Mancini was depressed a long time. Also the referree killed himself 3 months later and Kim's mom as well committed suicide. 

[Notabug]

5 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

There really would be much to say now. He's sedated they have to wait to wean the sedation and see if he improves. Wont really know much about prognosis for 5 to 7 days. 

Also not the doctors job to hold a press conference snd keep anyone up to date except the family. Plus there are hipaa laws.  

I absolutely agree that there isn't much that can be said as to prognosis at this point.  However, it is worrisome that he has been sedated and on a ventilator more than 2 days after the initial event.  In general, it is not routine to place a young healthy person into a medically induced coma for this length of time after an arrest and successful resuscitation.  

Even 5-7 days is going to be quick as to prognosis in this case, but, as time passes, it becomes less likely that he comes through this unscathed.

I also agree that there is a huge privacy issue here and that no one at the medical center; not a doctor, not a nurse, not the cleaning lady has any business saying anything without direct consent from his parents or whoever holds his HIPPAA rights (would usually be parents in the case of an unmarried person).  BTW, HIPPAA does not apply to family or even the Bills organization.  They can legally say whatever they want.  That the information has been so vague and nonspecific, especially from the Bills indicates to me that there isn't a lot of positive news to convey and a lot of concern that the outcome is not going to be great. If he was doing just great and the prognosis for a full recovery was good, I think we'd have heard that.

Quote

 

No....I HATE, HATE,HATE the idea of any neutral sight playoff games. 

Absolutely agree,100%.  There are fans who come out and support their team year after year through thick and thin.  They deserve the chance to see them on their homefield in the playoffs.  Moving the game to a neutral site will deprive a lot of fans of the opportunity they deserve to come out and support their team.  It will also turn those playoffs into the sterile, corporate event that the Super Bowl has become.  No thanks.

[Irlandesa]

30 minutes ago, Notabug said:

BTW, HIPPAA does not apply to family or even the Bills organization.  They can legally say whatever they want.  That the information has been so vague and nonspecific, especially from the Bills indicates to me that there isn't a lot of positive news to convey and a lot of concern that the outcome is not going to be great. If he was doing just great and the prognosis for a full recovery was good, I think we'd have heard that.

No HIPAA doesn't apply but basic decency does.  The Bills organization has staff members at the hospital.  It's pretty clear they're coordinating with the family.  The information shared by Damar's friend and the information shared by the Bills organization has been very similar.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Irlandesa

[roamyn]

The longer Demar remains on ventilator, even at less oxygen, the more likely complications like pneumonia.

My father was on a vent for two weeks due to surgical complications, and it almost killed him. I’m sure the doctor told me why this happens, but I don’t remember the medical explanation, just that it is common for the medical personnel to wean the patient off the vent ASAP, to prevent pneumonia and other lung issues.

It sounds like they’re trying to wean him off, but it might take several days.  They can’t just lower it over the course of so many hours.  Each time they lower how much assistance he’s getting, there’s a monitoring period.

How the Bills are going to be able to focus on the Patriots w/o having some kind of resolution to their teammate’s well being, is beyond me.

Also, those jerks sending Tee Higgins threats need to be put out on the field w/o gear, so the Bengals can have a field day with them.

[Danielg342]

8 hours ago, Black Knight said:

CBS Sports has an article up about the available options for resolving the Bills/Bengals game.

In a nutshell, the least disruptive option is to cancel the game and decide team standings based on winning percentage. And this option does exist in the rulebook.

Only issue I have is that it still is punishing the Bills for something beyond their control. A tie or using winning percentage puts Kansas City in the driver's seat for No. 1 overall, when, if the Bills had beaten the Bengals, they would not have been.

I still think the best decision is to base the standings on the results of this week's games, declaring the Buffalo-Cincinnati result based on who would benefit the most competitively.

• If the Bills beat the Patriots, they get No. 1, continuing the path the Bills were on if they had beaten Cincinnati.
• If Buffalo wins, KC loses and Cincy wins, Cincy gets No. 2 (I'm allowing a win for both Buffalo and Cincinnati in their game since this preserves the "best possible outcome" and because the two teams did not have the opportunity to decide their game on the field).
• If Buffalo loses, KC loses and Cincinnati wins, Cincinnati gets No. 1 (which the Bengals could have gotten an opportunity for if they had beaten the Bills).
• If Baltimore wins, the Ravens get the AFC North, as what would have happened had Cincinnati lost to Buffalo.
• If Baltimore and San Diego the Los Angeles Chargers both win, Cincinnati is the #6 seed, since a Cincinnati loss to Buffalo means Cincinnati would lose the tiebreaker (conference record) against San Diego the Chargers.

Yes it's convoluted, but it's better than "simple" solutions like a tie or winning percentage. I want to be as fair as I can be to all the teams in question, because no one asked for what happened on Monday.

[mojoween]

Max Kellerman, taking us into break - “we’re going to have an update on Damar Hamlin this morning.  In the meantime, should Jalen Hurts start on Sunday?”

[DrSpaceman73]

10 hours ago, Notabug said:

I absolutely agree that there isn't much that can be said as to prognosis at this point.  However, it is worrisome that he has been sedated and on a ventilator more than 2 days after the initial event.  In general, it is not routine to place a young healthy person into a medically induced coma for this length of time after an arrest and successful resuscitation.  

Even 5-7 days is going to be quick as to prognosis in this case, but, as time passes, it becomes less likely that he comes through this unscathed.

I also agree that there is a huge privacy issue here and that no one at the medical center; not a doctor, not a nurse, not the cleaning lady has any business saying anything without direct consent from his parents or whoever holds his HIPPAA rights (would usually be parents in the case of an unmarried person).  BTW, HIPPAA does not apply to family or even the Bills organization.  They can legally say whatever they want.  That the information has been so vague and nonspecific, especially from the Bills indicates to me that there isn't a lot of positive news to convey and a lot of concern that the outcome is not going to be great. If he was doing just great and the prognosis for a full recovery was good, I think we'd have heard that.

Absolutely agree,100%.  There are fans who come out and support their team year after year through thick and thin.  They deserve the chance to see them on their homefield in the playoffs.  Moving the game to a neutral site will deprive a lot of fans of the opportunity they deserve to come out and support their team.  It will also turn those playoffs into the sterile, corporate event that the Super Bowl has become.  No thanks.

Typically in a case like this there would be therapeutic hypothermia for 48 hours which just would have ended late last night at the earliest. He'd be sedated during that time.   

[Carey]

9 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

10 hours ago, Notabug said:

BTW, HIPPAA does not apply to family or even the Bills organization.  They can legally say whatever they want.  That the information has been so vague and nonspecific, especially from the Bills indicates to me that there isn't a lot of positive news to convey and a lot of concern that the outcome is not going to be great. If he was doing just great and the prognosis for a full recovery was good, I think we'd have heard that.

No HIPAA doesn't apply but basic decency does.  The Bills organization has staff members at the hospital.  It's pretty clear they're coordinating with the family.  The information shared by Damar's friend and the information shared by the Bills organization has been very similar.

I have no idea what the laws in Buffalo, New York are as it relates to one's privacy.  I don't know for sure meaning that if I had to guess, they may or may not be similar to the ones from Damar's hometown, which I am familiar with.

Say they're similar & the proper protocol is followed.  The family of Hamlin along with the Bills organization can only share the information that's disclosed to them.  It's not just that it's out of respect or whatever, but the people working in a medical facility or professional building/office within the field are bound by HIPPA.

So yeah, people can legally say whatever they want, but unless Damar signed a PRD Form, the doctors, nurses, and everyone else can basically tell his family & team, "I'm sorry, I can't tell you what you need to know."  They'll be able to inform everyone of his status, but in terms of the particulars, they might not know because the staff is only telling them what they need to know, not what they want.  No deep details, and Hamlin is well over 18 years old.

BTW, $7 Million so far in terms of donations

[Notabug]

58 minutes ago, Carey said:

I have no idea what the laws in Buffalo, New York are as it relates to one's privacy.  I don't know for sure meaning that if I had to guess, they may or may not be similar to the ones from Damar's hometown, which I am familiar with.

Say they're similar & the proper protocol is followed.  The family of Hamlin along with the Bills organization can only share the information that's disclosed to them.  It's not just that it's out of respect or whatever, but the people working in a medical facility or professional building/office within the field are bound by HIPPA.

So yeah, people can legally say whatever they want, but unless Damar signed a PRD Form, the doctors, nurses, and everyone else can basically tell his family & team, "I'm sorry, I can't tell you what you need to know."  They'll be able to inform everyone of his status, but in terms of the particulars, they might not know because the staff is only telling them what they need to know, not what they want.  No deep details, and Hamlin is well over 18 years old.

BTW, $7 Million so far in terms of donations

.

HIPPAA does not apply when someone is incapacitated and there is important medical information and potentially decisions that need to be made.  For all intents and purposes, Damar's parents are HIM at this point, presuming he doesn't have a POA for healthcare that designates someone else.  There is a legal hierarchy that determines who is in charge of making decisions in this instance and, since he's not married and doesn't have kids (or adult kids), his parents are his closest next of kin.

His parents can talk to any and all healthcare personnel about his condition, ask questions, they can read his chart, look at his Xrays and see all test results.  They can request second opinions, ask about treatments, ask for doctors to be removed or added to the team. HIPPAA is a federal law, BTW.

Anyone here who doesn't have a power of attorney for healthcare needs to get on the stick, particularly if they aren't married and/or not close to their parents or siblings.

As his reps, his parents can decide if they want other people involved in these discussions, whether a minister, a trusted friend, a family member with some medical background just as Damar could choose to have others present were he the one talking to the doctors.

The family and the Bills have expressed nothing but positive feelings about the care he has received; I presume his parents are satisfied that they've got the information that they need.  I am sure the Bills are clearing any announcements that they make with his parents beforehand.

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Typically in a case like this there would be therapeutic hypothermia for 48 hours which just would have ended late last night at the earliest. He'd be sedated during that time.   

Thanks for that info, I was not aware that they'd said he was receiving hypothermic treatment.  It isn't done in all cases although I don't know the indications for or against.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Notabug

[emma675]

The Bills just released more info, per CNN: Hamlin has shown remarkable improvement over the last 24 hours and per the physicians caring for him, he has shown that he appears to be neurologically intact. His lungs continue to heal and he is making steady progress. Link

ETA link.

Edited January 5, 2023 by emma675

[Carey]

I'm aware about HIPAA & know it's a federal.  Amazingly it's been the case for barely over a quarter century, but whatever.  I'm quite familiar when it comes to this stuff, but not an expert either.  It's important (for me) to self-educate and stay informed.

Notabug, I appreciate your content & knowledge on this matter.  I think it's great that we have someone familiar with the ins and outs, somewhat related to what's going on.  There are a lot of people on Social Media that need to hear their voices heard, state stuff to fit the agenda, and try (& fail) to make it look factual.

I tend to approach the better safe than sorry method when it comes to the laws of the land, especially HIPAA.  It would/does make total sense that one's parents/spouses/kids would (have to) assume control with certain info when the person in question is unable to.  What's important is family using it wisely and nothing more. 

Good thing Damar's mom is trustworthy.  I don't know about his uncle; if it's me, my family would have an inner circle with extended family they trust & ones they don't.  Not everyone's getting my info, but the wife, the kids, the folks, and siblings would.  Maybe/probably my aunt, but that'll be it.  Wouldn't be my choice if something happened to me, but no one close to me abuses my personal stuff.  They're more aggressive than I am