The Clarks vs Camp Dinner Bell: Comparing FTWD and TWD

[RedheadZombie]

Watching the finale, it struck me that Strand may end up being a little like Morgan. Not because they're both black men, of course. More along the lines of this: Morgan was only on one episode of TWD for several seasons, yet his character and the actor left fans crying for more, season after season.

I have no idea if Strand will last - it seems unlikely for a man who still thinks diamond cuff links are valuable, and crisp white shirts are practical. But when he showed, I sat up and noticed. The guy has tons of charisma, and his voice alone commanded attention. He doesn't have the tragic back story of Morgan, and he certainly doesn't seem to value life like Morgan, but he commanded attention.

The difference between Morgan and Strand, in my opinion, is that TWD had more likable characters, and across the board better actors. I know nothing about casting agents, but I think it's a little dangerous to cast someone who stands out and completely steals the show from "the stars". This was already happening with Reuben Blades, but they dirtied up his character enough to distract me. The closest TWD came to this happening (IMO) was with the character of Shane. He ended being written as complete villain, yet JB was able to portray him as more tormented and driven by guilt and jealousy. Years later, he still has people arguing for and against him in his character thread.

[raven]

 

He ended being written as complete villain, yet JB was able to portray him as more tormented and driven by guilt and jealousy.

I agree completely about JB's performance; I think the the writing did support Shane having good qualities; when he's trying to save Rick in the hospital and can't is especially compelling.  I never had a doubt that he did love Rick, and his scenes with Carl were always good.  JB did wonders with the character overall.

 

I'm not sure about Reuben Blades' Daniel - we haven't seen anything especially good from him yet.  He was loving with his wife and Ofelia but overall seemed colder to everyone else.  Though I never doubted Shane would sacrifice everyone else for Lori and Carl, he did try to lead, sometimes with compassion, sometimes not.  I think he wanted to do what was "right"; Daniel I'm not so sure about. 

 

Strand is charismatic but I think that Frank Spillane's Nick is up to the challenge of playing against him.  Strand being spiteful over the cufflinks (to a lesser extent, we don't know what the soldier put him through) and then not letting the people out of the cages plays against him (Nick too, acting like a follower is no excuse).  So I'm not sure; I can see Strand throwing someone overboard who was bugging him, or because they were running low on supplies or something. 

 

Strand hasn't been portrayed as especially complex yet; Morgan always was, so until he has more to do I don't find Colman Domingo as memorable as Lennie Janes.  Frank Spillane I thought did the best job overall but he had more scenes and more to work with.   I agree that TWD does have better actors; I just don't think the FTWD group is as bad as some here do.  I'm intrigued with more eps for S2.

[Bongo Fury]

I don't think Cobalt has happened yet in FTWD.  

 

Adam said that Cobalt was to start at 9 am the next morning. When the rescue mission was launched, the military was already in the process of starting their evacuation. So this is confirmation of Adam's story. I am confident of the date of west coast Cobalt as day 15 Fear.

 

From the Hollywood Reporter interview:

Q: What's the biggest lesson you learned from season one and how it was received?

A: Being aware of pace. We purposely developed the show in a slower fashion than people are accustomed to.

 

Yes, unlike in TWD where we got to know Rick (and Morgan) in the very first episode. And after only one episode the audience is totally invested in these characters. On Fear the characters are still basically blank slates after 6 episodes. And the audience generally either doesn't give a shit about any of the characters, or else actively dislikes them because they are despicable human beings. So it's a conscious decision to SLOWLY develop the characters, and to take many seasons to reveal details about the characters. And also many years for the audience to care about these shitheads. 

 

Wow, these guys are bigger idiots than I thought. They can't write a story, they can't develop characters, and yet they proudly declare this as a conscious decision. 

<face palm>

[peach]

Wow, these guys are bigger idiots than I thought. They can't write a story, they can't develop characters, and yet they proudly declare this as a conscious decision. 

<face palm>

 

I don't hold out hope for improvement next season, cuz ya can't fix stupid.

[rab01]

Adam said that Cobalt was to start at 9 am the next morning. When the rescue mission was launched, the military was already in the process of starting their evacuation. So this is confirmation of Adam's story. I am confident of the date of west coast Cobalt as day 15 Fear.

 

 

You'd be right to be confident based on what they said to us on the show but ... this is FTWD.  *sigh*

 

The showrunner strongly implies that Cobalt is in the future in his interviews. So, either soldierboy lied after being tortured, they changed their minds, or the showrunner is talking out his ass in his interviews:

 

 

Will you reveal more about about what Cobalt is? The humane termination of the people was never explained.

 

You'll have to wait for season two! We're not at the point where Rick [Andrew Lincoln] woke from his coma [on The Walking Dead]. So the military's withdraw from the L.A. basin and the suggestion they're going to head to the desert — that's real. You can imagine that's happening throughout the country and throughout the world right now. Everyone is in retreat but you don't want to leave a city, if you can avoid it, that's completely consumed and owned by the dead because the dead will continue to spread throughout every city and every community they're in and bite more people. And before you know it, there won't be any people left. So the military still has plans.

Edited October 8, 2015 by rab01

[Nashville]

From the Hollywood Reporter interview:

Q: What's the biggest lesson you learned from season one and how it was received?

A: Being aware of pace. We purposely developed the show in a slower fashion than people are accustomed to.

 

And exactly what part of this "slower pace" is serviced by jumping forward a week and a half in the plot timeline...?

[editorgrrl]

Watching the finale, it struck me that Strand may end up being a little like Morgan.

Tobias is the Morgan. Strand is the Merle—he may be a user, but he sure is charismatic. Travis and Daniel are the Dales/Hershels—the "moral" ones. TPTB want Nick to be the Glenn (clever & resourceful), but that soliloquy in the finale was very Carl—thinking he's the big man.

Hopefully Maddie will be the Morales family, and go away quickly.

[mandolin]

 Travis is jogging, and Madison's painting and complaining, and Nick's floating in the pool and getting high.  Wow.

 

Overall, for me, the biggest missing piece is that there is no actual FEAR of what is happening in the world. No one has ANYTHING to say about the world ending? About dead bodies eating living people? There's no feeling of anxiety. What will we do without power? Supplied food? Water? What's happening in the world? There is a ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE happening, and no one is worried about it. Or even mentions it.

[ghoulina]

Overall, for me, the biggest missing piece is that there is no actual FEAR of what is happening in the world. No one has ANYTHING to say about the world ending? About dead bodies eating living people? There's no feeling of anxiety. What will we do without power? Supplied food? Water? What's happening in the world? There is a ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE happening, and no one is worried about it. Or even mentions it.

 

Exactly! These people are taking stock of the apocalypse like they're checking the pantry for next week's shopping list. I've been catching bits of the TWD marathon this week, and I saw the episode in season 1 where Shane and Lori see the bombing of ATL. Lori was terrified! And you have the entire pilot, where Rick is just figuring out this new world. He played shock, confusion, and horror brilliantly. 

 

Another thing that struck me about how lazy they're bring with this one - the music. I can't even recall any. IS there any? Or is just as bland as the characters? TWD has generally always made a good use of music - not just the soundtrack, but the actual score. Bear McCreary had some wonderful haunting melodies, other than just the requisite "scary music" stuff. And I've always loved the intro. The intro to FTWD is like 2 seconds and it's over. 

 

I'm just convinced they could not give two shits what they serve us, because they know the masses will gobble it right up. I'm sad to live on this planet sometimes. 

[rab01]

On top of all the other things mentioned above, I think another big difference for this show is that it's suffering from not being based on Kirkman's comics and not having a ton of his involvement. Now, I know that a lot of people in this forum don't think much of Kirkman but hear me out.

 

[First, some background. I'm not really a horror or comics guy so, when TWD became a huge hit, I figured that's nice but not for me but I ran across the first walking dead graphic novel in the library, read it and I finally got what people were talking about. After that, I burned through the graphic novels and binged the first couple of seasons of the show sort of in tandem.]   

 

Kirkman may not write subtle dialogue but there isn't a whole lot of room for that in a black and white comic. He is great at creating interesting protagonists and putting them in situations that are genuinely engaging and sometimes wrenching. The best moments in the show have all come from the comics (albeit sometimes repurposed for different characters). His characters aren't always clever but their actions flow from their characters and the situation instead of just being pawns moved on a chessboard. (His villains, however, are way too comic-booky but the show has helped a bit there by trying to make the antagonists more believable.)

 

Anyway, since there is already a show bible for TWD in the comics, the show can follow the comics' path or improve on it knowing that it all hangs together for many seasons out. FTWD on the other hand has no pre-built and pre-tested characters. It has no pre-tested plot so it is relying totally on the sensibilities of its showrunner and writers' room without any built in structure or safety net. Doing a zombie show where we care about the people in it instead of waiting for the next "cool zombie kill" is really very hard and requires a huge amount of *attention* to the characters and to continuity.  Kirkman spent years developing that close attachment to the TWD people. The spin-off doesn't have that built in advantage. Also, Kirkman says often that he really likes the TWD characters that didn't previously exist or have grown into something different from his comics and that he loves how collaborative TV is as a medium so I can see him being very hands-off of FTWD.

 

Has anyone here watched Marco Polo, Low Winter Sun, Sons of Anarchy  or Canterbury's Law? Because those are the prior shows that Erickson has helped produce and our expectations for FTWD should be based more on those shows than on TWD,

[mandolin]

I watched Sons and 

while I really liked it at first, I could hardly root for Jax or anyone else by the end. Poor dead Tara.

[JBody]

On top of all the other things mentioned above, I think another big difference for this show is that it's suffering from not being based on Kirkman's comics and not having a ton of his involvement. Now, I know that a lot of people in this forum don't think much of Kirkman but hear me out.

 

[First, some background. I'm not really a horror or comics guy so, when TWD became a huge hit, I figured that's nice but not for me but I ran across the first walking dead graphic novel in the library, read it and I finally got what people were talking about. After that, I burned through the graphic novels and binged the first couple of seasons of the show sort of in tandem.]   

 

Kirkman may not write subtle dialogue but there isn't a whole lot of room for that in a black and white comic. He is great at creating interesting protagonists and putting them in situations that are genuinely engaging and sometimes wrenching. The best moments in the show have all come from the comics (albeit sometimes repurposed for different characters). His characters aren't always clever but their actions flow from their characters and the situation instead of just being pawns moved on a chessboard. (His villains, however, are way too comic-booky but the show has helped a bit there by trying to make the antagonists more believable.)

 

Anyway, since there is already a show bible for TWD in the comics, the show can follow the comics' path or improve on it knowing that it all hangs together for many seasons out. FTWD on the other hand has no pre-built and pre-tested characters. It has no pre-tested plot so it is relying totally on the sensibilities of its showrunner and writers' room without any built in structure or safety net. Doing a zombie show where we care about the people in it instead of waiting for the next "cool zombie kill" is really very hard and requires a huge amount of *attention* to the characters and to continuity.  Kirkman spent years developing that close attachment to the TWD people. The spin-off doesn't have that built in advantage. Also, Kirkman says often that he really likes the TWD characters that didn't previously exist or have grown into something different from his comics and that he loves how collaborative TV is as a medium so I can see him being very hands-off of FTWD.

 

Has anyone here watched Marco Polo, Low Winter Sun, Sons of Anarchy  or Canterbury's Law? Because those are the prior shows that Erickson has helped produce and our expectations for FTWD should be based more on those shows than on TWD,

 

Respectfully disagree with some of this.  Kirkman is heavily involved in FTWD, as executive produce and writer.  He co-wrote the premiere and finale. 

 

He did not like it when TWD veered from the source material, his creation.  He thought Darabont went way too far with the CDC episode, for example: he disapproved highly of that.  Since Gimple became showrunner it has adhered much more tightly to the comics, something Kirkman loves. 

 

Kirkman is winging it now with FTWD and it is sucking.  I can attribute that to a severe lack of Darabont.  His skill in adapting the comics to the screen (not an easy task by any means!) is kind of legendary nowadays: it was well known to be a labour of love for him; he is an acknowledged master at creating atmosphere, compelling characters (Darabont created Daryl and Merle), beautifully composed shots, etc. etc, all the crap people praised The Pilot for back in 2010. 

[rab01]

JBody - I get it and like I said up front, I understand that Kirkman isn't universally loved. Personally, I thought the CDC episodes were pretty weak

except for the doctor's mourning his wife.

.  But I had hoped that their existence would preclude

Eugene's original storyline, which I thought was damn near moronic in the comics and proved to be even dumber on TV.

  That said, of course Kirkman wouldn't care for the CDC episodes because

they violated his first rule of never trying to give any sciency sounding explanation for zombies because they make no damn sense. Also, I bet he was thinking that he loved the characters of Abraham, Eugene and Rosita and thought that the CDC episodes meant he'd never work them in. Shoehorning that story into the past year really didn't fit - that entire portion of the TWD show was nonsense because of the CDC episodes.

 

As for his involvement in FTWD, of course he is a producer - regardless of his actual level of involvement and the first and last episodes (the ones you say for which he got a partial writing credit) are the two best of the series.  But it's not so much that I think he's washed his hands of FTWD - it's that he's deeply invested in the people and world he created in TWD over the course of more than a decade while the FTWD characters are people that he or others dreamed up just a few months ago. I am not disparaging Darabont's work (like everyone else I love The Shawshank Redemption)

but somebody destroyed Lori and Andrea - and that sure wasn't the comic.  (j/k I really doubt that was Darabont's idea either.)

 

 

As for the cinematography, Kirkman can never take credit or blame for that since he ain't a director and I wasted a bunch of pixels complaining about that up-thread. I was just adding here why I think the story on FTWD just isn't tight and why nothing ever feels like the inevitability of greek tragedy, which is a real strength of some great episodes and volumes of TWD.

 

Reading the interviews convinces me that the people making this show aren't trying to make crap but they are suffering from a lot of "hey, that sounds cool; let's try that" thinking rather than "what would these specific characters be trying to do and how would they react if X happens instead."

 

Spoilers to hide brief discussions of TWD episodes varying from the comics.

[mandolin]

It's funny - watching the season 1 blu-ray extras, Kirkman makes positive comments about the CDC arc. 

 

I think sometimes the shoes does well when it veers from the comic (not having Michonne and the Gov interaction be the same, The Grove) and sometimes it fails miserably (GRADY HOSPITAL). 

 

I do think the two eps of FTWD that Kirkman co-wrote are the best, but they still weren't good. I don't dislike him as much as many people seem to. I think he does troll audiences some and isn't the best media savvy guy, but I really think he loves the world he created. 

 

I really appreciate what Darabont did in season 1, and it's too bad he's gone, but I also have to appreciate the show for what it is now that he is gone. Seeing some of the comic stuff come to life is really cool. (I'm not generally a comic reader, but I'm current on TWD.) 

Edited October 8, 2015 by mandolin

[JBody]

'Tis true but I read this thing was in development from 2013, not just a few months ago. I think AMC et al severely undervalued Darabont's efforts and this lacklustre "companion series" (deliberate legalese, from what I gather) is evidence of this, in a way. That being said, I will check out season 2 just to see if things improve, being an eternal optimist ;)

[mandolin]

Regardless of whose fault it is, I think most of us can agree that it just plain sucks. :-)

[peach]

Darabont was only there for the first year.  Yes, he deserves tremendous credit for creating the tone and texture of the show, but somehow AMC managed to keep the ball rolling, and while it can be inconsistent and dumb sometimes, it has maintained the core of what works, and as was mentioned, we continue to have excellent art direction, set dressing, ZOMBIES, etc.  And the characters continue to deepen.   

 

So, blah blah, many talented people make TWD keep happening, and none of them seem to be involved in this "companion series."  I wonder what Gale Anne Hurd's contributions are as exec producer.  She has a fairly golden touch, and she's listed as exec producer for both shows, but she gives regular interviews about the happenings of TWD, and I haven't noticed her being in the forefront of Fear.

[Bongo Fury]

It's not TWD, but I didn't see a more appropriate thread, and I don't see a point in creating a new one, so since I'm making a comparison I'll put it here. Mia culpa if I am wrong.

 

Z Nation is a farcical show, it doesn't take itself too seriously and there is comedy in every episode. Like the last episode where the heroes roll a 10' wheel of cheese down a hill to stop the zombies chasing them, and then for the remainder of the episode we get glimpses of the rolling cheese with zombie legs sticking out of it, hilarious. But even on that show, the characters are much more well defined and deep, and the audience is much more invested in them (OK, it's been on for 18 episodes instead of only 6 for Fear, but I have felt this way since the start). And when they do moral dilemmas, the characters fret over the choice and despite their seeming immorality, you still like the characters. Z Nation is closer to Sharknado than it is to Hamlet, and it certainly has its faults, but even so the writing is heads and shoulders better than Fear. So it shows that even low budget can be done well. Fear is just ... I don't know, I wonder if you could do a worse show without purposely trying. 

[seacliffsal]

I agree about Z Nation-it's a much fuller show than Fear. Although it's silly and fun at times, I care about most of the main characters and the decisions that they make and the losses they have suffered.

[ghoulina]

It's true that Darabont hasn't been around since season one (which is still the best season, IMO) and the show has still been good. Scott Gimple has been showrunner the last two seasons, correct? I like Gimple. I think he does a pretty damn good job.Even as far back as season 2 he wrote some of the better episodes - Save the Last One and Pretty Much Dead Already. I don't believe he has anything to do with FTWD. I think that show has way too much Kirkman. He really only writes 1-2 episodes on the main show per season. I feel like he has his hands in Fear a lot more. I've never read the comics, but I can recognize that someone who might be a great comic writer would not necessarily be a great TV writer.

[RedheadZombie]

Although Darabont was fired in July 2011, he was still part of season two, which had already been partly filmed. He's blamed for the "boring" farm plot that I loved.

[ghoulina]

Oh, really? I didn't know he had anything to do with season 2, except for maybe the first episode. I don't really find that season boring at all. It has its low moments, as all seasons do, but I thought there were a lot of interesting philosophical quandaries presented. I also thought the setting was at once beautiful and creepy.

[Watcher0363]

Although Darabont was fired in July 2011, he was still part of season two, which had already been partly filmed. He's blamed for the "boring" farm plot that I loved.

Not just a part of. You do not just shoot on location shows. The scripts were written the sets planned and so on. Part of the reason he was fired was over wanting to spend to much money shooting the series. After reading what he planned as a couple of flashback episodes for season two. I can see why it was only 13 episodes. I would have loved to have seen the Ranger group trying to reach their target in Atlanta. Also would have loved to see how Andrea and her sister met Dale. I think a Shane, Lori, Carl escape episode would have been great also.

[fliptopbox]

 Fear is just ... I don't know, I wonder if you could do a worse show without purposely trying. 

Agreed. I will admit the last episode of Fear was decent...not TWD-level decent, but at least I wasn't actively bored. Things were happening.

 

I will probably watch season 2 for shits and giggles, but by no means do I think it's a good show. I'm with everyone else who says it's just a money/fans grab.

 

The worst thing is that the show had (and still could have) potential...if they fired the entire writing staff and started over. I just am not really looking to Zombie Apocalypse: Yachtie Edition. Maybe they could contact Bravo and do a tie in with the Below Deck cast!!!! But anyway...the show could be good, it just is far too slow and when they're supposed to be showing us this slow creep of the world falling apart it would help if they actually showed us some of it. Instead we get Nick the junkie and his enabling mother, 2 angsty teens destroying rich peoples' homes, Travis jogging, Maddie day drinking and re-fucking-painting her living room, Griselda and her stank foot....come on!!! How can anyone have thought that was good tv??? They really need to pull some rabbits out of their asses for season 2.

SMH.

[Jel]

Aw am I the only one who likes this show? 

 

For me the repainting your house, waiting for the garbage truck, jogging etc makes a ton of sense because what is happening to these people is all so new (like days new) and so goddam weird.  It takes people a while to come to terms with things, to accept what is going on, and I think what they are doing with the room painting and board game playing etc actually feels authentic to me.  It would take me a  while to accept that ohh, the dead come back to life and eat people now?  And the science and the government can't control this? And our civilization is ending right now. That's a lot to wrap your head around, no? 

 

The media was focusing, as the media does, on the flashy shit like the riots while almost completely ignoring the real problem, which of course is your neighbor wants to eat you. I don't think that's too far fetched either.

 

I don't expect to see a ton of zombies because there aren't a ton of them yet -- we're only days in; and as someone else pointed out upthread, the dead are still in pretty good shape.

 

I also like Madison, and see her as the Rick of the show.  I expect she'll show us an interesting back story. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by Jel

[kj4ever]

So I think in the Walking Dead Universe FWD timeline lines up with Rick being in a coma still?  According to FWD Wiki they are on day 20 of the outbreak and Rick wakes up day 59.  From what I can tell, the first kidnapping type deal they dealt with on TWD was on day 310, when Glenn and Maggie are taken by Merle.

So FWD is already to kidnapping and killing when our people on TWD were probably just all meeting at the camp outside of Atlanta?  At first I didn't think they were rushing things but man when you see it at that perspective you have to wonder where the hell they think they can go from here?

[ghoulina]

Maybe they don't expect this show to run as long?

[HighMaintenance]

Perhaps they will all die on day 58 and we can breathe a sigh of relief.

[JackONeill]

5 hours ago, HighMaintenance said:

Perhaps they will all die on day 58 and we can breathe a sigh of relief.

Maybe on day 58 we will cut from FTWD to TWD. The camera will be tightly focused on Rick's face. He's asleep. The camera will pull back. We see he's in a hospital. Then we see Shane walk in.

Rick wakes up groggily.

"Hey, buddy. How you feeling?" Shane asks.

"Not too bad," Rick says. "But I had the craziest dream. It was about these pansy-ass people in Southern California. They all had pretty hair. And, Shane . . . there were dead people. But they seemed smarter than the living people. Shane - what does it mean?" Rick looks around before adding, "And why did I smell Lori's perfume when you walked in?"

[Christi]

Still can not wrap my head around why this show is SO bad!?  They must have some writers, advisors etc some kind of advice on what makes a great zombie show vs this Shirt Show. 

Do the powers that be not read the internet ?

It's not like a few people just casually think that this doesn't quite measure up to the original...jesus

Just like TWD finale...The obviously don't care that this franchise is jumping two giant sharks in one season...

Advice please. ...what else is out there in tv land to watch? That is comparable to TWD in the beginning? I just have regular cable...nothing fancy

[qtpye]

It kills me that so many of my favorite shows have been canceled and this will go on for eternity, not because it is good, but because it has "Walking Dead" in the title.

[editorgrrl]

On May 16, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Christi said:

Advice please. ...what else is out there in tv land to watch? That is comparable to TWD in the beginning? I just have regular cable...nothing fancy

I like Z Nation on Syfy, a "popcorn show" from the makers of Sharknado. It's way less frustrating than either TWD or FTWD. Also two UK shows: In the Flesh (reintegrating zombies back into society) and Dead Set (zombies in the Big Brother house).

Back on topic: the biggest difference for me is that I gave up on FTWD after season 1, but I'm still watching TWD. Begrudgingly.

[tv echo]

Interesting article...

Fear the Walking Dead has stopped trying to be different
By Bryan Bishop  on August 22, 2016 01:29 pm  
http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/22/12586330/fear-the-walking-dead-season-2-midseason-premiere

Quote

All of that seemed to go out the window in the first five minutes of last night’s mid-season premiere, as recovering addict Nick (Frank Dillane) walked down a deserted highway on his way to Tijuana. For fans of the franchise, it was a wink and a nod; a callback to Rick riding his horse into Atlanta in an almost identical shot in The Walking Dead’s pilot. But it also played as a kind of sad admission: You want the original show? Fine. Here you go.

Fear has always exhibited an intentional symbiosis with its parent series, but last night marked an unusual turn — the show started running through plot points that were beat-for-beat copies of scenes we’ve seen in The Walking Dead. Nick tussled with a zombie trapped in a car as he searched for water. Nick ran across gun-toting outlaws. Nick even ended up in a walled-off enclave that could have been a sister city to Terminus or Alexandria. (Five bucks says they’ve got some weird, dark secret, too.) As a bottle episode of television, you could have literally just swapped Rick for Nick and things would have played — albeit with some slightly tweaked flashbacks — and it speaks to the larger creative conundrum that the show, and Hollywood at large, finds itself in.

The Walking Dead wrapped up its sixth season as the highest-rated television show amongst people aged 18–49. If you’re a network, you simply don’t walk away from that kind of success; you look to expand it — so much so that AMC president Charlie Collier told Vulture earlier this year that he’d be open to a third Walking Dead series if comic creator Robert Kirkman had a pitch for one. And while Fear took pains to establish its own unique characters in its first season, as time has marched forward, it’s found few new places to go. If anything, last night was proof that Walking Dead has become a full-fledged subgenre unto itself, with the same shots, story beats, tropes, and interactions appearing across both shows, the comics, the games, and the web series. No matter where you go in the zombie apocalypse, there you are.
*  *  *
Each of those shows have worked because they found motivated ways to distinguish the new program from the original. But Fear is starting to feel like AMC’s attempt at a CSI or NCIS franchise — an endlessly renewable template. Each iteration stars different characters with ostensibly different motivations, but the bones are the same, and each story ends with the same climactic battle in the same cinematic style. It’s a new way to enjoy the same thing you already like. We only need to look back at Fear the Walking Dead’s midseason finale for proof: Rubén Blades’ Daniel Salazar, emotionally ravaged by the death of his wife, appeared to kill himself and a slew of zombies in a fiery blaze. But the same night it aired, series creator Dave Erickson was quoted as saying that it wasn’t really the end of Salazar, and that the character would return in some form in the show’s third season. Fans of The Walking Dead weren’t surprised, of course; it was just Fear’s own riff on the Glenn Is Dead Fakeout™.

Edited August 23, 2016 by tv echo

[ghoulina]

You know, I wouldn't even mind if it was essentially the same story, but in a different location. In the early seasons, I loved TWD so much, I would have been thrilled with the idea of another CDB, maybe in the Pacific Northwest or Detroit or somewhere in Europe. Of course storylines are going to be similar, because the struggle in the ZA is what it is. But at least have compelling characters and good acting. These people SUCK. We're halfway into season 2 and I don't care about ANY of them. At this point with the main show, I already had several favorites. Sophia coming out of the barn killed me. I cried when Rick killed Shane, and I didn't even like Shane. I CARED about those people. These people? They could all get eaten tomorrow and it wouldn't matter. 

That's the problem here. They just care about ratings. (Which is now ruining the main show, by the by. It's only being saved by superior actors like Lincoln, Gurira, McBride, etc.) They thought they could just throw some lazy writing and subpar acting out there, attach one of the biggest names in TV, and they'd be fine. Throw in a bunch of gore and we're good to go. 

FAIL

[kj4ever]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

You know, I wouldn't even mind if it was essentially the same story, but in a different location. In the early seasons, I loved TWD so much, I would have been thrilled with the idea of another CDB, maybe in the Pacific Northwest or Detroit or somewhere in Europe. Of course storylines are going to be similar, because the struggle in the ZA is what it is. But at least have compelling characters and good acting. These people SUCK. We're halfway into season 2 and I don't care about ANY of them. At this point with the main show, I already had several favorites. Sophia coming out of the barn killed me. I cried when Rick killed Shane, and I didn't even like Shane. I CARED about those people. These people? They could all get eaten tomorrow and it wouldn't matter. 

That's the problem here. They just care about ratings. (Which is now ruining the main show, by the by. It's only being saved by superior actors like Lincoln, Gurira, McBride, etc.) They thought they could just throw some lazy writing and subpar acting out there, attach one of the biggest names in TV, and they'd be fine. Throw in a bunch of gore and we're good to go. 

FAIL

This this this this this.

With TWD even the people I wasn't crazy about I wanted to know what would happen to them.  The only person I wanted to get bit was Carl...lol  

The acting is truly horrible on this show.  I mean the whole Madison/Nick/Freaky Lady...I didn't get it at all until it was spelled out to me that Nick accepted that warped "this is the new version of us" crap.  I mean I'm not a stupid person, I don't have trouble following along with anything but this show....You better have some good ass actors if the writing is this terrible.  The problem is I can't decide which is worse, the writing or the acting!

Strand is about the only one of them I remotely care about, and that is pushing it.  I did like the Nick character before, or at least found him, as Madison's face would say, mildly interesting, but after that episode?  Dear God it's like they are trying to fail.

So do you all think that these damn show business people know how truly bad this is?  I mean it's not just here.  The Walking Dead peeps at work are so over this show.  Everyone I've talked to says what a steaming pile of crap it is.  I just keep hoping that they'll realize the mistake, kill off all those people, and start over with people that can actually act and emote and write.

[SoSueMe]

On 8/23/2016 at 0:06 PM, kj4ever said:

This this this this this.

With TWD even the people I wasn't crazy about I wanted to know what would happen to them.  The only person I wanted to get bit was Carl...lol  

The acting is truly horrible on this show.  I mean the whole Madison/Nick/Freaky Lady...I didn't get it at all until it was spelled out to me that Nick accepted that warped "this is the new version of us" crap.  I mean I'm not a stupid person, I don't have trouble following along with anything but this show....You better have some good ass actors if the writing is this terrible.  The problem is I can't decide which is worse, the writing or the acting!

Strand is about the only one of them I remotely care about, and that is pushing it.  I did like the Nick character before, or at least found him, as Madison's face would say, mildly interesting, but after that episode?  Dear God it's like they are trying to fail.

So do you all think that these damn show business people know how truly bad this is?  I mean it's not just here.  The Walking Dead peeps at work are so over this show.  Everyone I've talked to says what a steaming pile of crap it is.  I just keep hoping that they'll realize the mistake, kill off all those people, and start over with people that can actually act and emote and write.

I was wondering the same thing when the actors show up on Talking Dead. Madison (Kim Pickins) was on 2 weeks straight and seemed to be reveling in the success (?) of the show. 

[ezrameyer]

I found this which seems pretty interesting. They argue that Fear the Walking Dead is better! Seems interesting. A lot of it seems to be about the progressiveness of the show, but worth a look! I kinda get a lot of the points.

 

[heisenberg]

On 2016-08-23 at 10:35 AM, ghoulina said:

You know, I wouldn't even mind if it was essentially the same story, but in a different location. In the early seasons, I loved TWD so much, I would have been thrilled with the idea of another CDB, maybe in the Pacific Northwest or Detroit or somewhere in Europe. Of course storylines are going to be similar, because the struggle in the ZA is what it is. But at least have compelling characters and good acting. These people SUCK. We're halfway into season 2 and I don't care about ANY of them. At this point with the main show, I already had several favorites. Sophia coming out of the barn killed me. I cried when Rick killed Shane, and I didn't even like Shane. I CARED about those people. These people? They could all get eaten tomorrow and it wouldn't matter. 

That's the problem here. They just care about ratings. (Which is now ruining the main show, by the by. It's only being saved by superior actors like Lincoln, Gurira, McBride, etc.) They thought they could just throw some lazy writing and subpar acting out there, attach one of the biggest names in TV, and they'd be fine. Throw in a bunch of gore and we're good to go. 

FAIL

I agree with your post except that I do mind that it is the same story.  In TWD Rick wakes up and we are into it.  In FTWD we are at the beginning, so it means that even after three weeks some areas, politicians, scientists, communications, industries, buildings, etc... Are supposed to be still there standing.

 

From the beginning of this show I was expecting to see scientist in their lab trying to figure out things, politicians trying to manage the crisis from their secured locations, etc... 

 

In both shows I have never seen someone use a laptop or even a book with some knowledge in it...  Instead of learning how works movement detection alarms, batteries and solar panels... Yep.  Poetry and guns! :-)

 

  It seems that everybody turned dumb in one night and are bullying each others for no good reasons.  Water and supplies?  Most of the people are dead so plenty of supplies should be avaible, if not, go to the nearest Kraft factory, read the manuals or go on their computers and start back the production lines. 

[Razzberry]

On 8/23/2016 at 6:07 AM, tv echo said:

AMC president Charlie Collier told Vulture earlier this year that he’d be open to a third Walking Dead series if comic creator Robert Kirkman had a pitch for one.

For the love of God, if they are seriously thinking of a third zombie show,  at least get some different writers with a  fresh vision of the apocalypse.  This is little more than sloppy TWD seconds reheated because they believe zombie audiences will swallow anything and like it. Although TWD is clearly the better show,  I became bored and was hoping this would be different.  

#1 - The whole premise of a tiny percentage of humans constantly fighting over land and resources which should be incredibly abundant in such a scenario is whack, but that's Kirkman's take apparently.  I don't think they can show the complete breakdown in any realistic way, where the military and law enforcement is eradicated but these morons survive, so they just skip that part. 

#2 - Both shows suffer from a complete and utter lack of humor.   I don't mean Z Nation's level of farce (although I adore the show for not taking itself too seriously) but surely someone survived who isn't depressed 24/7 and is capable of some snappy repartee occasionally?  TWD is actually worse for all-consuming bleakness and number of mandatory crying scenes.  I would kill myself, not because of the walkers, but from being stuck with these people.

[Nashville]

Quote

Both shows suffer from a complete and utter lack of humor.   I don't mean Z Nation's level of farce (although I adore the show for not taking itself too seriously) but surely someone survived who isn't depressed 24/7 and is capable of some snappy repartee occasionally?  TWD is actually worse for all-consuming bleakness and number of mandatory crying scenes.  I would kill myself, not because of the walkers, but from being stuck with these people.

YES YES YES.  

I mean - nobody's talking Benny Hill here, but we definitely need more of this:

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Nashville
Editor ate the damn quote

[ghoulina]

Seasons 1 and 2 definitely had a lot more humor. 

Sigh.....seeing those early episodes makes me sad. 

[SnarkyTart]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

#2 - Both shows suffer from a complete and utter lack of humor.

Yes to this.  Initially the Abraham character added some (very) occasional comic relief (dolphin smooth and porch dick), so he had to go.  Likewise, Eugene provided occasional comic relief, so they made the brilliant choice to turn him into a bad guy and make viewers hate him.

[AllyS]

On 9/18/2017 at 9:04 AM, OhTheHumanity said:

So again, we have Madison's group willing to ruin the security for a large group of people to get what they want:

• From the first season, when the "heroes" destroyed the fence around their neighborhood so that they could get OUT, neglecting to close it up on their way out which allowed the dead to get IN
• Their destruction of the security perimeter at the medical/jail center where Nick was being detoxed and met Strand
• The destruction of the security perimeter at the hotel, because Madison just HAD to turn on the hotel signage lights for Travis (and all of the desperate survivors and the dead, of course) to find them.
• The destruction of the military base where they were being detained at the beginning of Season 3
• The near-destruction of the Ranch (and the killing of the Ranch patriarch who took them in)--I still fully expect them to leave the Ranch in ruins and overrun by the dead at some point
• Now blowing up a truck and bringing down the fence keeping both dead and hostile alive out of the dam area...their self-serving destruction of the security of others knows no limits.

Sounds familiar, just like the "original recipe" Camp Dinner Bell...I came, I saw and I ruined it....

[BasilSeal]

15 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I hate Madison and her family.  I think they are incredibly stupid people that keep running into people that are even dumber than they are. 

They're in a considerably better position than their counterparts in Georgia were at this point in the ZA, largely because they've for the most part made better decisions than Rick and his friends. Madison has held things together at the ranch by making smart tactical decisions, engineering the alliance with walker is a smart mve that has avoided (so far) the sort of pointless conflict that set team fucknut back to square one on several occasions in TWD.

One of the key flaws in the writing of the original show was the propensity of the characters to drive the action by doing things that were either really stupid or completely out of character, the characters here are far more consistent and as a result more realand the writers largely avoid the trope of having them behave out of character or withhold important information for no reason just to drive the plot or create tension.

15 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The ratings for this series are tanking badly.

Whilst the ratings have dropped, it's still AMC's second most watched show with over 2 million viewers, beating even Better Call Saul, it's way behind TWD, but this show will be much cheaper to make, this season has also been critically well received, from past behaviour it's unlikely AMC will be canceling it just yet.

 

15 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

As hard as I try, I just can't root for Madison and her family.  I know I am not supposed to hate them, but I do. 

I'm not sure we're supposed to like the Clarkes, they do some pretty awful things in order to survive, but that's kind of the point of the show. Most of the gripes with FTWD seem to be that it's not TWD, but it's a very different show to the original with different thematic concerns of societal breakdown and personal morality. what would be the point of making a show that was exactly the same as the original anyway?

 

16 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I think it is because of the lousy acting and horrible writing.

As a matter of interest, how do you think the acting and writing compares to the original show?

 

5 hours ago, AllyS said:

Sounds familiar, just like the "original recipe" Camp Dinner Bell...I came, I saw and I ruined it....

Well quite.

[BasilSeal]

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I don't want to go too far off topic, but Madison hasn't faced the level of  antagonists that Rick has on the Mothership.

Madison would get squashed like a bug if she had ever met up with the Governor, Nagen, Garbage People, etc. etc.

Bear in mind that at this point the show's time line, rick hasn't faced any of these antagonists either, and it's not like he wipes the floor with any of them when he eventually does. Right now whilst Madison has built an important alliance with walker, Rick is helping Hershel catch walkers for his barn in the hope that they might cure them by the medium of praying and hymn singing, just saying like.

 

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I am not defending Rick, I am royally ticked off that he took all of those weapons from the women and children (Oceanside?) leaving them pretty much defenseless.

To be fair to rick, taking down negan is something that will benefit everyone including the Oceansiders, they needed guns to do this and it made sense for the Oceansiders to supply them. That team fucknut managed to acquire the guns without killing everyone in Oceanside and / or fucking up their functioning community was a major step forward from their usual playbook, it's only taken them seven series (about two and a half years in TWD time) to reach this point, Madison's managed a similar trick with the group at the dam after a few months.

 

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

For example, Carol should be on screen much more  often.

Can't argue with you on that one.

[BasilSeal]

On 19/07/2017 at 10:00 PM, ezrameyer said:

I found this which seems pretty interesting. They argue that Fear the Walking Dead is better! Seems interesting. A lot of it seems to be about the progressiveness of the show, but worth a look! I kinda get a lot of the points.

I think that's a good analysis.

I liked the key point that TWD is about superheroes, but FTWD is about people. Comic books are an art form in their own right and very different from television, hence the characters and storytelling are more stylised. Transposing the comic book narrative to TV gives us something that is hyper real, with characters that are either exaggerated like Eugene or Araham, or grotesque and cartoonish villains like the Governor and Negan, it's a hyper real world where pretend kings have pet tigers

I think the hostility towards FTWD stems from it's lack of comic book action, one thing TWD does very well is the set piece zombie kill scenes, but the zombies have taken a back seat in this show in favour of interaction between realistic human beings.

[Nashville]

A line of discussion popped up on another thread I thought interesting enough to bring over here and dive into it a little deeper; namely, the tendency of our crews of wandering waifs to find a stronghold or other safe place, move in, and eventually destroy it. 

First, CDB - as of the season 7 finale, something like 1 year 8 months into the ZA:

1. Atlanta CDC.
2. Herschel's Farm (or, as I prefer to call it, Greene Acres).
3. The Prison.
4. Woodbury.
5. Terminus (hey, it was safe for *some* people).
6. The Church.

[ Note: I do not count the original Atlanta camp by the quarry as a 'safehold'; the camp had no special safety/security features, and walkers could basically walk into the camp at whim.  I also do not include Grady Hospital or the Alexandria Safe Zone in this list, as neither has been destroyed to the point of uninhabitability - yet. ]

Next, the Clarks - as of the last episode, two months into the ZA (entering Day 61):

1. Daniel's barbershop: admittedly short-term, but the Clarks drastically shortened its usefulness by drawing the rioters' attention to it.
2. The National Guard enclave.
3. National Guard hospital.
4. Catrina Island (home of the Gearys).
5. Abigail family estate.
6. The Abigail.
7. La Colonia.
8. The Hotel.
9. The Ranch militia's border outpost.
10. The Ranch.

So let's break this down a little further:

• CDB: 6 safeholds in 20 months averages out to a safehold occupation/destruction cycle of about once every 14 1/2 weeks, or every 3 months 1 1/2 weeks.
• Clarks: 10 safeholds in 60-ish days?  That works out to 6 days per location - less than a week per safe site.

So I think we can stop raking CDB over the coals for their destructive tendencies; relatively speaking, CDB is still in the bush leagues while the Clarks are batting in the majors.

[SimoneS]

On 9/24/2017 at 9:05 AM, BasilSeal said:

I think the hostility towards FTWD stems from it's lack of comic book action, one thing TWD does very well is the set piece zombie kill scenes, but the zombies have taken a back seat in this show in favour of interaction between realistic human beings.

Yeah, I don't agree. You are making an overgeneralization to excuse bad storytelling, IMO. Speaking for myself, I am not hostile towards FTWD. Rather I am beyond disappointed that the show is not what they said it was going to be about; the beginning of the Zombie Apocalypse and the disintegration of society. If they had delivered what the show they promised us, then there would be fewer comparisons to TWD. Instead the show jumped from riots in LA to a suburb to a boat to the desert in Mexico. Seriously, WTF? They should still be stuck in LA, struggling get out along with the millions of people who live there. At least, then it would make sense for people to be fighting over supplies, food, and water.

Also, as @heisenberg correctly pointed out, it has only been a few weeks/months, there still be "politicians, scientists, communications, industries, buildings, etc." I will add a functioning federal government, national guard, and military. Where is the emergency broadcasting system? Even with people panicking, there would be systems in place that would keep institutions functioning for a long period of time. 

 

18 hours ago, Nashville said:

A line of discussion popped up on another thread I thought interesting enough to bring over here and dive into it a little deeper; namely, the tendency of our crews of wandering waifs to find a stronghold or other safe place, move in, and eventually destroy it. 

I never get how you and other fans hold Rick and his people responsible for the lost of these places that were never safe in the first place. The fact that they have survived is admirable.

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I never get how you and other fans hold Rick and his people responsible for the lost of these places that were never safe in the first place. The fact that they have survived is admirable.

I'm afraid I must disagree emphatically with this statement.

Were some places safer than others?  Definitely?

Is it reasonable to postulate in a zombie apocalypse, no place will be 100% safe 100% of the time?  Probably.  Even if you find a fully-stocked Fortress of Solitude with walls ten miles high, it's impossible to keep the threat outside.  So long as people are living - and dying, and turning - within the walls, the threat posed by mortality is always right inside there with you.

To say none of these places was ever safe for any length of time, however, is...simply wrong.  Even more significantly, it is not supported by the facts in evidence.

• The Farm was by no means a perfect shelter, yet Herschel and his group managed to survive there with minimal problems for 67 days before the arrival of CDB - about week longer than it's taken the Clarks to find, occupy and destroy ten other settlements.  And there's no telling how long the Greenes and friends might've continued to survive there in relative peace and comfort, were it not for CDB's antics drawing the attention of every sentient and non-sentient predator in the general vicinity.
• The Prison was a safehold as yet unequalled in strength and security by any other encountered by either group to date - a fortress specifically designed to keep people in, keep other people out, and do so for years.  CDB first entered the Prison on Day 300 - and on Day 504 exited a smoking ruin, due majorly to their interactions with the Governor.  Congratulations, CDB; 204 days is the current longevity record to date.
• Woodbury wasn't ideal, but despite his innate Froot-Loopiness the Governor had a decent grasp on some basic survival strategies: decide what constitutes a defensible perimeter, establish it, and defend the hell out of it.  Again, like Greene Acres, no telling how long Woodbury would have survived if not for its conflicts with CDB.
• Catalina Island was probably about as safe is it is possible to get in a ZA scenario: an island out in the middle of the Pacific, no hostiles except the odd infected wash-up on the beach (and outside the perimeter fencing), and a population of exactly five - Dad, Mom, Big Brother, Little Brother, and Sister.  Until the Clarks come a-visiting, that is.  The day after the Abigail docks she disembarks leaving Sister and Mom dead and turned, Dad probably dead, and the two Brothers watching them motorboat away.  That's a 60% population reduction in 24 hours, BTW.  And lest we forget - this particular Death March got its walking shoes because Nick was looking to score some drugs and exposed Dad's cyanide suicide pill cache, which Sister thought were special vitamins.
• The Abigail herself was a marvel of nautical engineering, built to survive on the high seas for as long as her fuel holds out - so of course she's never taken far from coastline sight, abandoned at first opportunity, and left to be confiscated by soldier-pirates.
• La Colonia existed just fine until Nick led the Mexican gangs to its location - then led its occupants into an ambush at the border.

Just a few examples. 

Many of these places were not ideal, to be sure, and many of their various demises were engineered by hands other than those of the respective primary casts - but there's no denying the actions of CDB or the Clarks drastically foreshortened the life expectancies of multiple communities, either directly or indirectly.

[SimoneS]

7 hours ago, Nashville said:

I'm afraid I must disagree emphatically with this statement.

Were some places safer than others?  Definitely?

Is it reasonable to postulate in a zombie apocalypse, no place will be 100% safe 100% of the time?  Probably.  Even if you find a fully-stocked Fortress of Solitude with walls ten miles high, it's impossible to keep the threat outside.  So long as people are living - and dying, and turning - within the walls, the threat posed by mortality is always right inside there with you.

To say none of these places was ever safe for any length of time, however, is...simply wrong.  Even more significantly, it is not supported by the facts in evidence.

I disagree with your description of what actually occurred at those locations with Rick and his people. It was only a matter of time that Hershel's exposed farm and its cattle would have attracted a herd of walkers. Rick and his people took the prison which was already partially destroyed and held for as long as they could before crazy ass Phillip attacked them twice, the second time with tank. As for your Woodbury claim, I don't even begin to understand that one. Woodbury was ruled by a crazy man and would have been destroyed either by him or the walkers. It was a fool's paradise at best. The survivors were better off at the prison with Rick. Terminus as a safe place is so out there, I don't know what say about that one. I will never understand the rational in twisting these events to make them Rick and his people's fault, maybe it is the fan perspective of knowing and everything. They aren't perfect and have made mistakes, but they live in a dangerous world and are not responsible for the destruction occurs around them. This is FTWD forum and I don't anything to say on this topic relating to that show so I am stopping now.

Edited October 4, 2017 by SimoneS