Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[Grace19]

I don't get the concern, Tony and Steve were portrayed as humans with flaws,none of their character were ruined.

 

[slowpoked]

I watched this last night because of the good reviews, and while I thought the plot moved smoothly, I wasn't too impressed by it like I was with Winter Soldier. And I walked away feeling pretty sympathetic to Iron Man and thinking that Captain America is a gigantic, self-righteous ass.

[Wynterwolf]

Saw this post on the parallels between Tony and Bucky's situations.  So on a subconscious level, I think you could even make the argument that Tony wasn't necessarily going after Bucky, or even The Winter Soldier... he was attacking himself.  

[Advance35]

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I think by the time Tony found out about Natasha and saw her again, he'd had time to process it.  When Tony saw the tape, he was not only standing there in front of the man who did it, but also the man who knew and didn't tell him.  He was acting on impulse and didn't (couldn't) take the time to think it through.

Hadn't Natasha disappeared by this point.  I thought Tony/Natasha had their falling out after she sabotaged T'Challa's attempt to get to Steve and Bucky.   He said she could never stop herself from playing both sides and that Ross was coming for her.   She wisely, chose to disappear after that.

I thought Tony was very believable.  I can't imagine anyone having a reasonable reaction or showing any restraint period, after just watching their mother being strangled. 

I saw the movie again and I still have to agree with those who just aren't feeling Steve/Sharon.  EVC isn't a great actress but she's not bad either.  It's just so "blah."  I am not adverse to Steve moving on, I just wish it was on to as good or better.   Maybe they should give up on romance plots for the character.   There is always plenty going on in  his movies, I think they could continue to be awesome even without a romantic subplot.  But if they want to play up Steve's love life, they need to flush Sharon and try another character.

And I will forever bemoan that JW wasted a Black Widow romantic subplot on The Hulk.  I found Natasha at her most Natasha this movie and realized that the character, when written true to form, has an awesome dynamic that could lend itself to "more" with just about every character she interacts with.  Steve, Clint, Bucky (mainly because of my love for the ship in comics) and now T'Challa.   Hopefully now that he's been shown the door, The Russo's will close the book on Hulk/Widow since it does neither character any favors.

Does anyone know the contract status of Scar Jo with Marvel.  Natasha is a favorite of mine.  But someone on another board said that she's only contracted for one more Marvel movie and that's it.  Was there an interview that I missed?  I'm hoping I don't have to wait for the next Avengers movie to see her again.

[VCRTracking]

I liked that they explained in this movie that Tony did get rid of the suits and was ready to quit, but then in TWS SHIELD was revealed to be corrupted by HYDRA and they had to find Loki's sceptre. If SHIELD had still been around he would have been perfectly happy to retire. He was the one who upgraded the helicarriers in the first place.

You didn't want a

A lot of people think Spider-Man's appearance while enjoyable was totally irrelevant to the plot. I would agree to this except for the scene where Tony talks to Peter in his room. They could have shown Spider-Man swinging along in the city and being recruited by Tony as Iron Man. Instead Tony gets talk to this kid who's using his powers to be a hero. Peter and this is where Tom Holland really impressed me, essentially gives the famous "With great power, comes great responsibility" speech without using those words and it effects Tony. Peter says "When  you can do the things I can do, but don't, and the bad things happen, they happen because of you."

Edited May 10, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Kromm]

35 minutes ago, coast22 said:

I wasn't clear. IMO, CACW is a sequel to AOU much more than it is to TWS. (To be even more clear:  IMO, CACW was Avengers 2.5, not Cap 3.) AOU largely thumbed its nose at the movies between Avengers and it. Specifically,  Iron Man 3 and all of Tony's development was ignored and rendered inconsequential.  And then they built CACW off AOU, not TWS. Not a great plan. 

TWS is my favorite movie of the entire MCU - thanks for the summary of it. :)  

I know it's not a rule or anything, but may I suggest you not do the Alphabet Soup thing going forward?  Sure it saves typing, but the flip side is the what the heck is this person talking about/translation annoyance that will come from the readers. I think even half titles like "Civil War" (vs. the longer "Captain America: Civil War") and "Winter Soldier" at least scan as English words and are easier to read than a string of CACW AOU TWS etc. 

I think most people regard The Winter Soldier as the best movie so far, so you're not alone in that. But Civil War, I'm getting the impression overall, is really widely being liked too. Perhaps there's a sense that Iron Man 3 got shafted in the process, and perhaps there was a bit of marketing dishonesty in peddling it as anything other than an Avengers film, but I think the ads made it clear what it was. So really I don't know if I'd call making the film the way they did "not a great idea". More that they arguably just shouldn't have pretended it was a Cap film.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Kromm

[VCRTracking]

When people say they wanted CW to be a sequel to Winter Soldier they mean they want another movie like Winter Soldier, not an actual continuation of that story. I think Civil War does work as a continuation of that story as well as Age of Ultron. Just like Empire Strikes Back wasn't a retread of A New Hope but a continuation.

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And I will forever bemoan that JW wasted a Black Widow romantic subplot on The Hulk.  I found Natasha at her most Natasha this movie and realized that the character, when written true to form, has an awesome dynamic that could lend itself to "more" with just about every character she interacts with.  Steve, Clint, Bucky (mainly because of my love for the ship in comics) and now T'Challa.   Hopefully now that he's been shown the door, The Russo's will close the book on Hulk/Widow since it does neither character any favors.

Joss is the one who closed the book on Hulk/Widow in the actual movie. He pretty much showed why they don't belong together. If he wanted to show a successful romance for Natasha he could have picked Steve or Clint or Bucky. In that movie she chose duty over possible romance and this one she chose friendship over duty.

Edited May 10, 2016 by VCRTracking

[OakGoblinFly]

4 hours ago, Grace19 said:

They didn't flesh out Steve more, they should have added a flash back scene about Peggy and Bucky, it would have helped us understand why he was holding on to that world more. How much their loss motivated him.

I don’t think Steve was/is “holding on that world” nor was he motivated by the “loss” of Peggy and/or Bucky; I think Steve is motivated by loyalty, integrity, and a sense of justice.  You didn’t need a flashback with Peggy and/or Bucky; it's been established since The First Avenger that Steve Rogers is an extremely loyal guy with a ton of integrity.

 

Personally, I think flashbacks would have bogged down the storyline.

[nksarmi]

I didn't like Natasha's writing in Age of Ultron, but I loved how she was written in Winter Soldier and Civil War. I also don't like her with Banner, but I'd love to see her with Bucky. In fact, I can't say how much I'd love to see a Black Widow/Winter Soldier movie set in the present with flashbacks to when they encountered each other when he was brainwashed. I understand why they put him under, but you would think if Wanda gains control of her powers - she might be able to help him shut the Russian brainwashing down.

[vibeology]

20 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

A lot of people think Spider-Man's appearance while enjoyable was totally irrelevant to the plot. I would agree to this except for the scene where Tony talks to Peter in his room. They could have shown Spider-Man swinging along in the city and being recruited by Tony as Iron Man. Instead Tony gets talk to this kid who's using his powers to be a hero. Peter and this is where Tom Holland really impressed me, essentially gives the famous "With great power, comes great responsibility" speech without using those words and it effects Tony. Peter says "When  you can do the things I can do, but don't, and the bad things happen, they happen because of you."

Yep, Peter's philosophy and then his alignment with Team Iron Man confused me. Peter seems to think that if he can help people, he has to. Team IM is all about waiting for permission to step up. If another Alien attack happened in NYC, does anyone actually believe Tony would call up the UN and wait for them to vote while the city was being destroyed? It's nice to have a piece of paper but when bad things are happening and you can stop them if you're a good person, you stop them. That's my issue with the Accords something I wish Cap and his team had articulated. Sometimes there is no right decision, so you do your very best.

And I agree with people praising Spidey. That's the best Spidey ever on film. I was not interested at all in another Spider-Man movie, but this won me over, so Sony should be happy with the loaner decision because I'm sure it helped them sell tickets.

As for the rest of the movie it was fun and emotional. I bawled when Peggy died, even though I knew it was coming. I was horrified and disgusted with everyone at the end, but I think I was supposed to be. There were no winners in that fight, after all. I think everyone was making choices they thought were best (except Tony's revenge attack right at the very end, but I still get that emotionally) and no one was acting for personal gain.

Loved T'Challa. That movie can't come soon enough. Loved expanding Wanda. She's just a wonderful character. I think I like Sharon, but I do think dating Peggy's niece is weird and I do wish they had one more scene before the kiss because I think they needed that to establish the relationship.

[Bruinsfan]

1 hour ago, OakGoblinFly said:

Personally, I think flashbacks would have bogged down the storyline.

Yeah, Billionaire Xenophobic Vigilante v. Space Jesus pretty much proved that. Plus, it used up 2016's entire allotment of super-hero flashbacks months ago.

[VCRTracking]

Great essay about Spider-man/Peter Parker's role in Civil War and how it's important to Tony's arc:

Spider-Man’s Central Role In CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR
 

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Not enough, of course. And neither does Peter’s age. This is one of the elements of the film that I suspect may play too subtly (partially because we just want Spider-Man in the film kicking ass), but Tony Stark is completely wrong to recruit Peter Parker.

It’s pretty likely that he showed up at the Parker apartment unsure of what he was going to find. Tony’s initial interest in the Spiderling was his webs - he wants Spider-Man on his team as a non-lethal solution to the conflict. Those webs can easily and quickly take Cap and friends out of commission. He doesn’t know whether Peter is organically generating the webs or what, and by the time he realizes that Pete has created his own web shooters, Tony is already well on his way to recruiting the kid, not even considering that he could just get the tech.

This is Tony making a mistake. It’s one of the defining aspects of Tony Stark in the movies - he makes big decisions on the fly and they are quite often either wrong or incredibly destructive, and here he’s making another one. Thankfully it’s not apocalyptic - this isn’t another Ultron moment - but it’s a vital moment in his character arc and a chink in his ideological armor.

 

[Shannon L.]

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Hadn't Natasha disappeared by this point.  I thought Tony/Natasha had their falling out after she sabotaged T'Challa's attempt to get to Steve and Bucky.   He said she could never stop herself from playing both sides and that Ross was coming for her.   She wisely, chose to disappear after that.

Right.  But, what was being questioned is why Tony was mad at Steve but not Natasha.  I was just thinking that 1. Steve was right there when it all hit him and 2. at whatever point in the future, when Tony met Natasha again, he'd probably be angry, but not in a rage because he'd have had time to process it. 

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Yep, Peter's philosophy and then his alignment with Team Iron Man confused me. Peter seems to think that if he can help people, he has to. Team IM is all about waiting for permission to step up.

Maybe we could chalk it up to him being young and being not only confronted with a request from a well known super hero, but not yet being comfortable  saying no and sticking to his philosophy. 

[DkNNy79]

Well at that time they didn't know Bucky was framed, right?  So, Tony tells Spidey that they're trying to capture a dangerous guy who just set a bomb during a UN meeting.

[Wynterwolf]

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Maybe we could chalk it up to him being young and being not only confronted with a request from a well known super hero, but not yet being comfortable  saying no and sticking to his philosophy. 

My thought too... at this point Peter hasn't lived long enough to become cynical of government authority, so he sees Tony and the official nature of The Accords as 'right'.  I do think there needs to be an official partnership between Powered and NonPowered beings... but The Accords are clearly only about one-sided control (which is what Tony believes they need mainly because he doesn't trust himself, or his own judgement anymore) not partnership.  Which get's us back to the central theme of the movie:  Choice.  

[Grace19]

3 hours ago, OakGoblinFly said:

I don’t think Steve was/is “holding on that world” nor was he motivated by the “loss” of Peggy and/or Bucky; I think Steve is motivated by loyalty, integrity, and a sense of justice.  You didn’t need a flashback with Peggy and/or Bucky; it's been established since The First Avenger that Steve Rogers is an extremely loyal guy with a ton of integrity.

 

Personally, I think flashbacks would have bogged down the storyline.

I don't think so. some people have complained that this felt more like an Iron man movie than a cap movie since we get to see flashbacks to his parents, how he wished he told his dad he loved him. Its no wonder why his feelings about their death came out strong and made us feel for him. Now while I don't really agree with this being an Iron-man's movie, I see that they missed an opportunity to give cap the same strong motivation, just few seconds of flashbacks are enough to show how much the death of Peggy affected him and how much Bucky meant to him. they missed an opportunity there in my opinion.
 

3 hours ago, nksarmi said:

I didn't like Natasha's writing in Age of Ultron, but I loved how she was written in Winter Soldier and Civil War. I also don't like her with Banner, but I'd love to see her with Bucky. In fact, I can't say how much I'd love to see a Black Widow/Winter Soldier movie set in the present with flashbacks to when they encountered each other when he was brainwashed. I understand why they put him under, but you would think if Wanda gains control of her powers - she might be able to help him shut the Russian brainwashing down.

I would give anything for a Black widow and Winter soldier movie. I ship Bucknat too.
 

[Grace19]

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3 hours ago, vibeology said:

Loved T'Challa. That movie can't come soon enough.

Me too, the only thing that can get me more hyped for his movie is if they cast Lupita Nyango as his sister Shuri.

 

 

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Grace19 said:

I don't think so. some people have complained that this felt more like an Iron man movie than a cap movie since we get to see flashbacks to his parents, how he wished he told his dad he loved him. Its no wonder why his feelings about their death came out strong and made us feel for him. Now while I don't really agree with this being an Iron-man's movie, I see that they missed an opportunity to give cap the same strong motivation, just few seconds of flashbacks are enough to show how much the death of Peggy affected him and how much Bucky meant to him. they missed an opportunity there in my opinion.
 

I would give anything for a Black widow and Winter soldier movie. I ship Bucknat too.
 

There wasn't a reason he motivation was shown in two scenes. First the police having a kill order second when he was about to sign hearing about the Scarlet Witch's Internment

[Perfect Xero]

12 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

 

His character was not ruined unless you think any person would not act the way he did

That is exactly what I'm saying. I'm honestly flummoxed that people think that trying to murder someone, to the point that you're trying to fight your way through your mutual friend for, like, 10 minutes to do so, for something that you KNOW they were forced to do against their will is a sympathetic and acceptable response to the situation.

And, again, it was cheap and sold out the entire premise that they built the movie around about an ideological conflict where neither side is right or wrong, all for the sake of giving Steve an excuse to be morally justified to beat the shit out of Tony at the end of the movie.

[VCRTracking]

To not understand why Tony reacted the way he did is more baffling to me than Tony trying to kill Bucky even though he knew he was not in his right mind. I don't condone it but I still understand it. I don't think the reveal wasn't to give Steve the moral high ground in beating him. If anything it showed that Bucky, whether he wanted to or not still hurt a lot of people, and Steve's judgement the whole movie was clouded by his friendship.

Edited May 10, 2016 by VCRTracking

[nksarmi]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

That is exactly what I'm saying. I'm honestly flummoxed that people think that trying to murder someone, to the point that you're trying to fight your way through your mutual friend for, like, 10 minutes to do so, for something that you KNOW they were forced to do against their will is a sympathetic and acceptable response to the situation.

And, again, it was cheap and sold out the entire premise that they built the movie around about an ideological conflict where neither side is right or wrong, all for the sake of giving Steve an excuse to be morally justified to beat the shit out of Tony at the end of the movie.

Um both Steve and Bucky looked pretty darn beat up by the end of that fight. In fact, I think Tony looked better. And note that Steve took out the suit's power source. He never once risked Tony's health by say tearing off the helmet and trying to knock him unconscious (something I tend to think Steve could probably do). It's far more like Steve felt morally justified taking a beating by Tony for as long as he needed to for Tony to calm the freak down about Bucky and come back to his senses.

I think it's kind of interesting that the people who seem to love Tony the most seem to think he was written badly here. I was deeply concerned I was going to come out of the movie hating Tony (especially after Ultron being his fault) and was pleasantly surprised that I could sympathize with him and understood where he was coming from. I don't think they ruined Tony at all but I do hope he gets back together with Pepper soon.

[VCRTracking]

To the point, these io9 articles show as flawed as Tony was he still had lots of justification for some of his actions.

Civil War's Writers and Directors Explain Why You Shouldn't Side With Iron Man or Captain America

Why the Captain America: Civil War Movie Worked When the Comics Didn't

[Wynterwolf]

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To the point, these io9 articles show as flawed as Tony was he still had lots of justification for some of his actions.

Civil War's Writers and Directors Explain Why You Shouldn't Side With Iron Man or Captain America

Why the Captain America: Civil War Movie Worked When the Comics Didn't

 

That second link especially is how I had viewed things leading up to this movie, and when everyone else was 'choosing a side', I was firmly on #TeamRefuseToChoose because I could easily see both sides being right and wrong, but still with sincerely good intentions.  So for me, the movie felt brutal and honest and absolutely earned.  

And I am so ridiculously excited for the Black Panther movie they appear to be setting up that the next 2 years are going to be torture.  

[MisterGlass]

17 hours ago, pancake bacon said:

Natasha was right there too when Steve found out that Hydra/Bucky killed his parents in The Winter Soldier. Why isn't Tony Stark mad at her as well?

While neither Steve nor Natasha knew Bucky was involved, I think it's a different thing for Natasha to keep the secret of the murder than for Steve to keep it.  Natasha is a spy, and she's been lying to Tony since they met.  Steve is a soldier, and he was a friend of Howard's.  Tony sees keeping the secret and defending Bucky as a betrayal of his parents.  That why after the fight, still on the ground and on the verge of tears, he insists that Steve leave behind the shield Howard made.  Tony can't protect his parents and he can't avenge them, but he needs some little victory in this horrible moment.

I've been waiting for a Black Widow movie to be announced since the Avengers.  The Winter Soldier would make a great addition.  Both of them have been horribly exploited.  They have red in their ledgers.  They would make a good team.

[Perfect Xero]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

To not understand why Tony reacted the way he did is more baffling to me than Tony trying to kill Bucky even though he knew he was not in his right mind. I don't condone it but I still understand it. I don't think the reveal wasn't to give Steve the moral high ground in beating him. If anything it showed that Bucky, whether he wanted to or not still hurt a lot of people, and Steve's judgement the whole movie was clouded by his friendship.

I understand what Tony's motivation was supposed to be, I'm simply saying that the motivation they provided is not an acceptable excuse for his actions for me.  Being angry about a bad thing that happened to you in your past being an excuse to kill an innocent is the sort of motivation that villains take from tragedy.

Hell, being angry because bad things happened to his family is Zemo's motivation too.

Which, basically, is my problem; Civil War takes Tony from being a flawed hero and instead has him behave like a really sympathetic villain.

5 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Um both Steve and Bucky looked pretty darn beat up by the end of that fight. In fact, I think Tony looked better. And note that Steve took out the suit's power source. He never once risked Tony's health by say tearing off the helmet and trying to knock him unconscious (something I tend to think Steve could probably do). It's far more like Steve felt morally justified taking a beating by Tony for as long as he needed to for Tony to calm the freak down about Bucky and come back to his senses.

Well, yeah. That's because Steve is written as the hero of the movie so he gets to act like a hero should act. Tony is treated as the villain of the piece, he has them outclassed in terms of firepower and is out for blood, so he pushes them to their limit before the hero triumphs dramatically at the end while managing to hold on to his morals by not stooping down to the villain's level and killing them.

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To the point, these io9 articles show as flawed as Tony was he still had lots of justification for some of his actions.

Civil War's Writers and Directors Explain Why You Shouldn't Side With Iron Man or Captain America

Why the Captain America: Civil War Movie Worked When the Comics Didn't

Well, sure, those articles accurately describe the first two acts of the movie. The third act, however, throws all of that out of the window and turns Iron Man into an unhinged lunatic who is trying to murder someone.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Perfect Xero

[VCRTracking]

More moments I loved:

Cap's "C'mon man!" after saving the German special forces member Bucky knocked off the stairwell.

Sam asking T'Challa: "You like cats?"

Tony's happy surprise after taking apart Bucky's gun.

Scott's maniacal laugh after growing into Giant-Man.

[Grace19]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

More moments I loved:

Cap's "C'mon man!" after saving the German special forces member Bucky knocked off the stairwell.

Sam asking T'Challa: "You like cats?"

Tony's happy surprise after taking apart Bucky's gun.

Scott's maniacal laugh after growing into Giant-Man.

I loved all these moments too "come on man" and Scott's laugh killed me. also;

Bucky with that motorcycle and Steve in the helicopter scenes did things to me,

"I am Clint", "I don't care"

"How old is this guy?" "I didn't carbon date him, he's little on the young side."

Bucky and Sam in the car

 

[pancake bacon]

7 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

While neither Steve nor Natasha knew Bucky was involved, I think it's a different thing for Natasha to keep the secret of the murder than for Steve to keep it.  Natasha is a spy, and she's been lying to Tony since they met.  Steve is a soldier, and he was a friend of Howard's.  Tony sees keeping the secret and defending Bucky as a betrayal of his parents.  That why after the fight, still on the ground and on the verge of tears, he insists that Steve leave behind the shield Howard made.  Tony can't protect his parents and he can't avenge them, but he needs some little victory in this horrible moment.

I've been waiting for a Black Widow movie to be announced since the Avengers.  The Winter Soldier would make a great addition.  Both of them have been horribly exploited.  They have red in their ledgers.  They would make a good team.

Probably Tony had words with Natasha at some point, and probably in a calmer fashion. 

Here's my unpopular/unusual stance: Spider-Man was a great fun addition to the movie, but then that's it. There were bigger highlights in Civil War I was more buzzed about. I was taken aback when so many comments stated that we've seen the best Spider-Man ever from 20 minutues of screen time.

[benteen]

5 hours ago, Grace19 said:

I loved all these moments too "come on man" and Scott's laugh killed me. also;

Bucky with that motorcycle and Steve in the helicopter scenes did things to me,

"I am Clint", "I don't care"

"How old is this guy?" "I didn't carbon date him, he's little on the young side."

Bucky and Sam in the car

 

Also, Tony calling Bucky "Manchurian Candidate" was great and I was pleased to see that get a good laugh out of the audience I was with.

[Guest]

I could see Iron Man's motivation for killing Bucky even outside of just anger.  An argument could be made that Bucky is just too unstable and unable to be controlled. Bucky himself agreed, though not with killing him, but putting him in a deep freeze again.  

[Kromm]

2 minutes ago, deaja said:

I could see Iron Man's motivation for killing Bucky even outside of just anger.  An argument could be made that Bucky is just too unstable and unable to be controlled. Bucky himself agreed, though not with killing him, but putting him in a deep freeze again.  

Heh. Wasn't the whole point that he WAS too easily controlled?

4 hours ago, pancake bacon said:

Probably Tony had words with Natasha at some point, and probably in a calmer fashion. 

Here's my unpopular/unusual stance: Spider-Man was a great fun addition to the movie, but then that's it. There were bigger highlights in Civil War I was more buzzed about. I was taken aback when so many comments stated that we've seen the best Spider-Man ever from 20 minutues of screen time.

Not sure why both can't be true (that he's the best Spider-Man to reach movies, but also that there were bigger and better things in the movie besides him). 

[Kromm]

22 hours ago, vibeology said:

Yep, Peter's philosophy and then his alignment with Team Iron Man confused me. Peter seems to think that if he can help people, he has to. Team IM is all about waiting for permission to step up.

I've seen the notion that Peter is present to help soften Tony's stance. To restate some of the same things Cap is saying in a form that Tony Stark can digest better. Dramatically I mean. From Peter's standpoint, the kid is a science geek. His alignment with Tony Stark is because Tony Stark is his hero--the uber Science Geek.

EDIT - Yup, I see one of the articles cited above is about this. Although I think the extra wrinkle of why Peter bonds with Tony (the Science Hero thing) is another layer that article doesn't touch--it oversimplifies things and talks about it only being because Tony is famous. But the comics always had a beat in them that while Peter worshiped Captain America like most little boys, he identified with Tony Stark because of their common science background.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Kromm

[nksarmi]

9 minutes ago, deaja said:

I could see Iron Man's motivation for killing Bucky even outside of just anger.  An argument could be made that Bucky is just too unstable and unable to be controlled. Bucky himself agreed, though not with killing him, but putting him in a deep freeze again.  

I thought it was weird that no one - not even Steve - was trying to argue that someone might be able to deprogram him. I mean if they all know Bucky was a Manchurian Candidate at the beginning of the film - why weren't more people arguing against the shot to kill order? Why did Steve have to become a vigilante to suggest they bring him in alive? If he had signed the Accords, would they have listened to him? I'm going to assume they just wanted more action and less exposition. But seriously some line about deprogramming should have been in there.

I am excusing the fact that no one wondered why he was suddenly bombing a building after 2 years of nothing since I assume the Winter Soldier appeared and disappeared as Hydra needed him before. But why didn't anyone immediately wonder if Hydra was resurfacing since they had control over him before? Or did people just not believe Steve that Bucky was brainwashed prior to this movie?

[Bruinsfan]

42 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Heh. Wasn't the whole point that he WAS too easily controlled?

Not sure why both can't be true (that he's the best Spider-Man to reach movies, but also that there were bigger and better things in the movie besides him). 

Yeah, Zemo had to put a convoluted plot to get close to him in a room alone, but once he did it took like 30 seconds of reciting Scrabble words to re-activate the Winter Soldier. All it would take down the line is someone hacking a coms frequency Barnes is listening to in order to do the same again. Or, like, sending him one of those musical greeting cards with a reprogrammed sound card.

This was certainly the best screen version of Spider-Man I've ever seen, but the movie was still Steve's. And to a lesser degree, Tony's, Bucky's, and T'challa's.

[OakGoblinFly]

2 hours ago, nksarmi said:

I thought it was weird that no one - not even Steve - was trying to argue that someone might be able to deprogram him. I mean if they all know Bucky was a Manchurian Candidate at the beginning of the film - why weren't more people arguing against the shot to kill order? Why did Steve have to become a vigilante to suggest they bring him in alive? If he had signed the Accords, would they have listened to him? I'm going to assume they just wanted more action and less exposition. But seriously some line about deprogramming should have been in there.

I am excusing the fact that no one wondered why he was suddenly bombing a building after 2 years of nothing since I assume the Winter Soldier appeared and disappeared as Hydra needed him before. But why didn't anyone immediately wonder if Hydra was resurfacing since they had control over him before? Or did people just not believe Steve that Bucky was brainwashed prior to this movie?

Because it would be a very boring movie   ;-)

 

Also, I thought it was pretty well established that the Winter Solider was taken out of "storage" for assignments and then put back in when the assignment was done.   So it would not seem that strange (to me anyways) that there would be a long gap between events attributed to the Winter Solider.

I've learned with superhero/comic book movies to throw all logic out the window and just enjoy the ride.  Makes for far fewer headaches than trying to make sense out of the plot holes and out of character moments (though I do think Marvel does a good job of avoiding a lot of those).

Edited May 11, 2016 by OakGoblinFly

[Which Tyler]

36 minutes ago, OakGoblinFly said:

I've learned with superhero/comic book movies to throw all logic out the window and just enjoy the ride.  Makes for far fewer headaches than trying to make sense out of the plot holes and out of character moments (though I do think Marvel does a good job of avoiding a lot of those).

That really is the only way of doing these things.

In much the same way, we have to ignore the explanation of Ant-Man having the power of a 200lb man when he punches someone as an ant (well; a 200lb man with super-strength, maybe); and yet when he becomes GiAnt-Man, he has the power of a 200 tonne man. Not to mention that whole 200lb ant-sized thing that is so much lighter than water that it will be washed out of the bath by turning the tap on - as opposed to the bath, the floor, and everything above the bedrock simply failing to support that much pressure and breaking to let him through.

 

Dammit - I just failed at the whole "leave the brain on pause, and enjoy the show" thing, didn't I?

[nksarmi]

38 minutes ago, OakGoblinFly said:

Because it would be a very boring movie   ;-)

 

Also, I thought it was pretty well established that the Winter Solider was taken out of "storage" for assignments and then put back in when the assignment was done.   So it would not seem that strange (to me anyways) that there would be a long gap between events attributed to the Winter Solider.

I've learned with superhero/comic book movies to throw all logic out the window and just enjoy the ride.  Makes for far fewer headaches than trying to make sense out of the plot holes and out of character moments (though I do think Marvel does a good job of avoiding a lot of those).

Yea given the way Nat talked about Winter Soldier, Bucky's youthful appearance, and the frozen death squad - I too assumed that he was just used as needed (and likely had no life outside of that for 75 years which makes me very, very sad for him suddenly).

But like I said - someone, anyone - should have wondered who was giving him his marching orders if he really did bomb that UN. But no, everything just went straight to "Someone matching the description of Winter Soldier aka Bucky Barns - shoot to kill!" And it was just kind of like wait, what, huh? It almost seemed like Zemo had somebody on the inside the way things went from a fuzzy picture of a guy in a hoodie that kind of looked like to Bucky to we know he's in Germany - shoot to kill!

Like I said - I know the directors wanted that sequence of events to go down quickly - action over exposition and all that. But it still felt like it skipped over a few beats. Like wait a minute, does that mean we missed some in our Hydra clean up?

[OakGoblinFly]

34 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

Yea given the way Nat talked about Winter Soldier, Bucky's youthful appearance, and the frozen death squad - I too assumed that he was just used as needed (and likely had no life outside of that for 75 years which makes me very, very sad for him suddenly).

I know - I do agree that Bucky is very sad - he and Jessica Jones have to be the most tragic figures in the Marvel universal - their lives were turned upside downdown and their brains pretty much scrambled.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, OakGoblinFly said:

I know - I do agree that Bucky is very sad - he and Jessica Jones have to be the most tragic figures in the Marvel universal - their lives were turned upside downdown and their brains pretty much scrambled.

Man, the misery that Bucky and Jessica could share together...

[Perfect Xero]

So, the other major problem I had with the movie: Zemo's entire plan is the most ridiculously convoluted Xanatos gambit ever.

 

His plan is to lure Tony, Steve, and Bucky all to the old Winter Soldier base and show them a video of Winter Soldier killing Tony's parents.

First he dresses up like Bucky and bombs the UN to flush Winter Soldier out. The only reason that Steve is even able to go find Bucky before he is either killed by the police or escapes and goes on the run is that Sharron Carter illegally passes information along to him after Peggy's funeral. If that doesn't happen the whole plan falls apart. If Peggy Carter doesn't die when she does the plan probably falls apart too.

Then the airport fight happens. If Steve or Bucky is arrested there Zemo's entire plan falls apart. If members of Steve's team other than just him and Bucky are arrested there his plan is hurt, as they'll doubtless accompany him and Bucky to the base. If Falcon isn't captured the entire plan falls apart because no one is there to pass information along to Stark.

If Ross acts like anything other than a cartoon and agrees to investigate the lead Tony found then the whole plan falls apart.

If Tony doesn't break the accords and go to help Steve the whole plan falls apart.

If Tony already knows that Winter Solider killed his parents (and how does Zemo know this when Tony doesn't?) the whole plan falls apart.

If Tony doesn't snap and go all RAGEKILL on Bucky the whole plan falls apart.

Zemo's plan working requires that he perfectly predict how every major player in the MCU will act as well as how every conflict will unfold.

[NoWillToResist]

On 5/10/2016 at 5:59 PM, Perfect Xero said:

That is exactly what I'm saying. I'm honestly flummoxed that people think that trying to murder someone, to the point that you're trying to fight your way through your mutual friend for, like, 10 minutes to do so, for something that you KNOW they were forced to do against their will is a sympathetic and acceptable response to the situation.

And, again, it was cheap and sold out the entire premise that they built the movie around about an ideological conflict where neither side is right or wrong, all for the sake of giving Steve an excuse to be morally justified to beat the shit out of Tony at the end of the movie.

 

31 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

So, the other major problem I had with the movie: Zemo's entire plan is the most ridiculously convoluted Xanatos gambit ever.

 

His plan is to lure Tony, Steve, and Bucky all to the old Winter Soldier base and show them a video of Winter Soldier killing Tony's parents.

First he dresses up like Bucky and bombs the UN to flush Winter Soldier out. The only reason that Steve is even able to go find Bucky before he is either killed by the police or escapes and goes on the run is that Sharron Carter illegally passes information along to him after Peggy's funeral. If that doesn't happen the whole plan falls apart. If Peggy Carter doesn't die when she does the plan probably falls apart too.

Then the airport fight happens. If Steve or Bucky is arrested there Zemo's entire plan falls apart. If members of Steve's team other than just him and Bucky are arrested there his plan is hurt, as they'll doubtless accompany him and Bucky to the base. If Falcon isn't captured the entire plan falls apart because no one is there to pass information along to Stark.

If Ross acts like anything other than a cartoon and agrees to investigate the lead Tony found then the whole plan falls apart.

If Tony doesn't break the accords and go to help Steve the whole plan falls apart.

If Tony already knows that Winter Solider killed his parents (and how does Zemo know this when Tony doesn't?) the whole plan falls apart.

If Tony doesn't snap and go all RAGEKILL on Bucky the whole plan falls apart.

Zemo's plan working requires that he perfectly predict how every major player in the MCU will act as well as how every conflict will unfold.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who left this movie dissatisfied. I too was unimpressed with Tony and Steve's epic fight at the end. Yes, Tony was crazed with grief, but IMO, after the fiftieth punch, I would expect the shock to have worn off and him to use the fucking brain that he so prizes.

I was also annoyed at fortune teller Zemo because everything worked out oh so conveniently for his master plan. Also, why did he have to lure Cap, Tony and Bucky to Russia to show him the fucking video? 

But, in all fairness to the movie, it lost me pretty fucking quickly when the suits are all "wah wah look at the destruction you jerks wrought!". I literally sat in the theatre, jaw dropped, and muttered "yeah, sorry about some buildings and minor loss of life while they were LITERALLY SAVING ALL OF HUMANITY". Like, are they fucking serious with this shit? If they'd bitched about who was going to pay for the rebuilding efforts, I'd understand that. But to whine about some property damage and collateral damage when the alternative is the annihilation of the fucking human race, I just can't even with such people. For ANY of the Avengers to be all "gee, you have a point" floored me. Committees take forever to get shit done.

By the time the UN would have managed to arrange an assembly to even discuss whatever the crisis was, it would have been too damned late. And that's not even taking into account Steve's very important point about governing bodies' hidden agendas...

While I feel like I was supposed to feel sympathy for Tony's "he killed my mom", I couldn't help but parallel him to Loki.

And I'm disturbed at how, lately, I've grown tired of the fight sequences in these movies. It's just exhausting to sit through. I catch myself narrating "this is fight #1; this is fight #2; this is a big battle but we're only an hour in, so there will probably be another three fights to go before we're done."

And while I'm on the topic of fights, what's with these people's powers? Wanda can hold up a building and mostly contain blasts within her red fog magic, so why can't she just gather up some of her "enemies" and contain them in a ball of mist? Why are her powers so inconsistent? My husband snarked "puberty" but I really can't accept that. :D

[MisterGlass]

7 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Yea given the way Nat talked about Winter Soldier, Bucky's youthful appearance, and the frozen death squad - I too assumed that he was just used as needed (and likely had no life outside of that for 75 years which makes me very, very sad for him suddenly).

Yes, she said he was credited with more than two dozen assassinations, and there are probably others like the Starks that aren't widely known.  If each mission took two weeks, on average, that's less than a year of active operation, interspersed with horrible memory wiping procedures.

No wonder people wish he could just buy some plums in peace.

[Grumpymonkey]

I thoroughly enjoyed this movie, very glad I saw it in the theater but I was a little disappointed that for the final movie of Captain America it didn't focus more on Captain America and his main characters/relationships.  I knew going in Tony was gonna have focus but I guess I was hoping for less since I knew they were going to have so many characters and introducing new players. Probably unpopular but I could use a break from his issues and wish we could have delved more into Steve's, I just find his whole situation more interesting.

I did appreciate the character interactions we got and think the Marvel movies did/do a good job of establishing their characters and all their relationships. Steve/Natasha is one of my favorites and glad she was there for him during Peggy's funeral. Sniff Peggy.  

The fight scenes were on point and the one at the air port was one of my favorites. I thought TH as spiderman was good, though at times I wish he would just shut up. He rambled on and on and on. PR/Scott Lang was a highlight for me.  I think I loved every scene he was in.  I know everyone was all Black Panther! and Spiderman! but I was all Yay! Ant-Man!  My favorite cameo.

I like that Steve is a good man who is flawed, and while I left the movie kind of bummed how everything was left I liked Steve's letter and him going to get his friends. Dude is a good guy who believes in people and a lot of people might consider him boring or one note but CE makes him so rootworthy and I find him such a refreshing character.

Also Sam and Bucky cracked me up.

[Dandesun]

I want to watch Sam and Bucky remake every Road to ___________ movie that Bing Crosby and Bob Hope ever did. And when they get to wherever they're going, Steve's already there giving them both the Steve "Why Do You Make Things So Difficult" Rogers look followed by the Steve "Ah, I Can't Help But Love Ya Anyway" Rogers smile.

And then they all have a drink together. Then they call T'Challa and he's all "I have a country to run! Why are you road-tripping around when you're safer in Wakanda?! I'm sending my body guard to fetch you!" And then Sam and Bucky both go 'Dibs!' Because that woman was amazingly strong and hot and if it was Shuri, all the better.

As for the actual movie, the scene where Bucky grabs the motorcycle might be the hottest thing I've seen in some time. Wow. So many feels. ALL OF THE FEELS! Which is what I was expecting. I ran out of wine before the final battle which is really when I needed it. Alas. I made it through.

I totally dug Clint going all sarcastic/sassy on Tony at the Raft. Now that's the Clint I know. And given that Clint was the guy who 'made a different call' when he was sent to kill Natasha... I can totally understand why he sided with Steve. The airport fight really was something. I think Marvel does action scenes amazingly well considering all of the stuff that's going on. I can't imagine the amount of storyboarding that must go on there in the planning process. There was so. much. happening!

I really enjoyed the movie. I would see it again because there's so much to see in it.

[STOPSHOUTING]

I actually really loved this movie, but agree that the villain's plan requires you to think about it NOT AT ALL, or it doesn't work.

I also don't buy that Tony would go toe-to-toe to Cap like that, for so long, without coming to the, 'This is crazy, I'm not mad at him and Bucky was brainwashed,' conclusion, because the Stark we know is genius smart AND super practical.

That latter bit is the only element I'm sincerely critical of, because I don't think it felt true to character, since all the Marvel villains, minus maybe Loki, could be named McGuffin A Plotdevice for all their subtly, logic and character development. I also think they could have got the same point across, and had the head-to-head fight scenes they wanted, without the Cap/Iron Man battle going on so long, so hard, ending with Iron Man realizing the futility and just forcing Cap to choose one last time (or saying he's made his choice be gone), then keeping the shield and being pissed off when he went with Bucky.

But even with those gripes, I really did enjoy it. The fight at the airport was awesome. Fun, easy to follow -- unlike the Age of Ultron, quick-cut, 100% CGI battles -- and looked spectacular, plus with plenty of non-spoiled-by-the-trailer highlights. Black Panther somehow made the silly cat ear suit work, thanks to Chadwick Boseman's awesome portrayal. Likewise, 

Anthony Mackie's Falcon really comes into his own as an Avenger here ... Though when did he get bullet/repulser proof? He's not an "enhanced person," he just has wings, right?  

Of course, to make the airport fight scene possible, I found it hilarious that, even though, earlier IN THIS VERY MOVIE, Bucky and Cap were literally outrunning speeding cars on foot, it took them so long to cross an airport tarmac to the Quinjet that I think I saw an elderly woman with a walker pass them.

And, not for nothing, the best written/acted and most fun scene in this very fun, giant action movie was the little verbal interstitial with Sam and Bucky in the car. Hilarious; as well as perfectly timed and played.

I also agree with the masses that, even as a non-Spiderman fan, they nailed that character here. I hope whoever wrote for him here is involved in the upcoming solo film.

This also marks the first time I've actually liked/cared about Bucky Barnes, including in First Avenger. Either Stan is growing on me, or he just finally got an interesting storyline. Though, again, shut off your brain and ignore the ridiculousness of A) Tony's dad looking in 1991 exactly like he did in 1960, at least since John Slattery played him in those eras; since in most of the 1940s he looked a lot like Dominic Cooper B) There would be not only cameras on a random road in 1991, but they'd be able to ZOOM IN on the Winter Soldier's face AND have plenty of angles of what went on PLUS crystal clear sound C) You could even see the Winter Soldier's face, since every other time Bucky has been shown in that persona he's been wearing a mask that didn't even allow Cap to recognize him. ... But, yeah, other than all that.

PS on the multiple Howard actors: In terms of Tony asking Cap if he knew; I'd love to see a joke outtake where Steve is like, 'I swear I didn't, because that's not how I remember Howard Stark looking AT ALL.'

Still, even with all those picked nits, I loved this big, silly, but not actually dumb, summer blockbuster ... And am not looking forward to what I fear, based on Chris Evans' public comments about his future in the Marvel family, them killing Cap off in Infinity War(s) and handing the shield, which you know Cap's getting back, over to (my guess) Stan at some point during the next two Avenger flicks. <<<<-----This is just my gut, and not any type of actual knowledge or spoiler.

I just don't know if anyone else can play Cap with the charm and charisma that Evans has brought to this role he really was born to play. And I say that thinking that Evans is a fine, in more ways than one (hubba, hubba), but not in any way exceptional, actor; just that what he does on screen works perfectly to bring Cap to life and make him likable. So, here's hoping Marvel has enough money left in the dump truck they used to secure RDJ, apparently in perpetuity, to change Evans' mind about dropping the shield in real life. Of course, Downey also understands the practical realities of showbiz a bit better than Evans at this point, with the whole not-letting-a-crowd-pleasing-cash-cow-go sentiment likely a lot more resonant to someone who has previously been nigh on unemployable.

Edited May 12, 2016 by STOPSHOUTING
Typos and clarity

[angora]

7 hours ago, Dandesun said:

As for the actual movie, the scene where Bucky grabs the motorcycle might be the hottest thing I've seen in some time.

Haha, true.  Caught my attention but good, and I'm asexual.

Still thinking about the movie almost a week later.  I just loved it so much.  Everyone was used so well.  In a way, I think the fact that it was a Cap movie (rather than an Avengers movie) actually helped the balance of the ensemble.  When it's supposed to be a film about all of them, it's easy to feel, for instance, that Thor got shortchanged in Age of Ultron, but when it's a Captain America film, you don't mind some characters having small but memorable parts.  Everyone gets their moments, but when the story needs to pull back and focus on Steve-Bucky or Steve-Tony, it's okay for the others to back off a little. 

Ant-Man cameo for the win, and Peter was perfect enough to get me fully on-board for yet another Spider-Man reboot, but T'Challa was so awesome that I'm now even more annoyed about Spidey bumping him down on the schedule.  I love the Steve-Natasha friendship, and I'm glad she ultimately came through for him and Bucky.  Good to see Wanda again - really liked her in Age of Ultron - and I'm surprised how well the stuff between her and Vision worked for me.

[benteen]

Quote

For ANY of the Avengers to be all "gee, you have a point" floored me. Committees take forever to get shit done.

This I had a problem with.  The fact that Steve and the others just sat there and took it from Ross without uttering a single word to defend themselves drove me nuts.  Shield was responsible for New York because they fooled around with alien technology.  The World Security Council tried to nuke New York as a response  Washington was a Hydra plot using helicarriers paid for by the government.  Cap and his team saved the lives of over 20 million people that day.  How the hell don't you defend yourselves in the strongest possible terms about your actions during these events?

It's particularly annoying because Ross is the same character from The Incredible Hulk movie that created The Abomination, who rampaged through Harlem in that movie.  When Rhodey told Sam that Ross had "one more Medal of Honor than you do", I was waiting for Sam to throw the Abomination thing right back in his face.

Edited May 12, 2016 by benteen

[frenchtoast]

My handwavium for the reason they didn't speak up is because the last mission they went on, a rather small mission albeit with large consequences, ended with innocent people dying. It wasn't some huge invasion or big apocalyptic event and the local authorities may have been able to handle it without the collateral damge. It was supposed to be small--figure out what the bad guy was after and take them out. And it went south so quickly. I think they were still reeling from that and it was easier to make them to see those bigger showdown as their fault even if it wasn't.

Also, I think Vision explained it well, too. The bigger the heroes, the bigger the damage. The more supers there are, the more damage and fallout there is. As much as Zemo relied on a lot of favorables (and I think he even admitted to that) he still knew that power and strength weren't the way to destroy them--that just makes it worse. It was far better for them to turn on each other. (Well, I don't think South Africa would agree with that)

But still...it would have worked better had someone pointed out that most of those things they were reacting to a situation that so-called normals and the military couldn't have handled on their own. And sometimes it's a numbers game. Innocents would have been killed anyway, they were able to minimize the casualties. Doesn't help console those that did die, but it did prevent many others from dying.

[nksarmi]

16 minutes ago, frenchtoast said:

My handwavium for the reason they didn't speak up is because the last mission they went on, a rather small mission albeit with large consequences, ended with innocent people dying. It wasn't some huge invasion or big apocalyptic event and the local authorities may have been able to handle it without the collateral damge. It was supposed to be small--figure out what the bad guy was after and take them out. And it went south so quickly. I think they were still reeling from that and it was easier to make them to see those bigger showdown as their fault even if it wasn't.

Also, I think Vision explained it well, too. The bigger the heroes, the bigger the damage. The more supers there are, the more damage and fallout there is. As much as Zemo relied on a lot of favorables (and I think he even admitted to that) he still knew that power and strength weren't the way to destroy them--that just makes it worse. It was far better for them to turn on each other. (Well, I don't think South Africa would agree with that)

But still...it would have worked better had someone pointed out that most of those things they were reacting to a situation that so-called normals and the military couldn't have handled on their own. And sometimes it's a numbers game. Innocents would have been killed anyway, they were able to minimize the casualties. Doesn't help console those that did die, but it did prevent many others from dying.

This doesn't really work for me either and I sat in the theater fuming on their behalf as Ross did his little slide show.

Because the Avengers were assembled to handle an other worldly enemy. Sure, you could argue that Winter Soldier was Russia's response to Captain America. And there are probably other villains out there that would rise up in response to each individual hero. But that isn't what was going on here. In most of these cases - there was a serious failure of the authorities and the Avengers rose up in response.

First SHIELD messes around with things it doesn't understand and gets Loki's attention (and Thannos?). That's the authorities failing.

The Avengers assemble as a response not in causality. (oh yea side note here - the authorities tried to NUKE NYC and the Avengers prevented that too!)

Then SHIELD and the US government (and probably the UN as well) completely fails tor realize an enemy has corrupted it and Captain America (with a bit of help from Fury) has to take it down. Again, Captain America is the response not the cause. Authorities failed here.

Skipping ahead to the start of this movie - Steve is working to apprehend Crossbones (?) and stop him from stealing a bioweapon. This is not an instance where the Avengers developed the bioweapon and someone decided to steal it. No, the Avengers were protecting what authorities failed to secure.

So in reality - the only true failure of the Avengers in all of these cases is Ultron and Sokovia. And I'm sorry but that is Tony and Banner's failure. Authorities probably wouldn't have prevented Tony from doing that. Given what we've seen, that's the one thing the UN probably would have sanctioned. So I don't really put anyone who died in Age of Ultron on Captain America or the others because it really wasn't there fault. It was Tony's but it's also not a mistake I think would have been prevented by these Accords. And it also wasn't a matter of a big evil rising up against the Avengers. It was again an instance of messing with something you don't completely understand.

 

So yea there isn't some kind of cosmic balancing act going on here. And this certainly isn't the Batman argument of escalation (ie you put on the mask so all the crazy villains tried to up you). In the vast majority of instances the Avengers are the reaction, not the cause. And I think the Avengers have done so much to minimize bad things (like nuking NYC) that I don't think you can say damage and fallout have been worse because they don't let "normal" people deal with the problems. Flat out - Ross and all the countries backing the Accords were wrong. They needed to find a way to work in partnership with the Avengers, not try to control them.

[benteen]

Did the public ever find out about the attempting nuking?  Because if they're upset with the Avengers for some collateral damage, they should be absolutely livid that the  government was going to nuke a major American city.

Quote

Flat out - Ross and all the countries backing the Accords were wrong. They needed to find a way to work in partnership with the Avengers, not try to control them.

Of course, that will never happen in a movie because it's not as interesting.  But that would have been the correct response.  Find a way to work with the Avengers, provide support and find a way to minimize casualties and destruction.