Gender On Television: It's Like Feminism Never Happened

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Sure, they'd have had to give him a different ending in Endgame, but that wouldn't have been too difficult. Just have him officially retire without the whole time travel thing - Give Sam the shield, then walk off into the sunset with Sharon, to live a peaceful life.

I would have liked that ending a lot fucking more than the one with Peggy. It would have had Steve finding his own happiness in the present without ruining his character. But oh no, the Russos and the MCU just had to appease the fans who were all buttsore about one stupid kiss.

Sharon was just a bigger problem of how TFATWS handled its female characters in general. Unlike WandaVision, they had no character arcs or nuance — that was given to all the male cmheroes/villains. Karli went from victim to terrorist to martyr without actually showing us what she went through and how/why got radicalized (ditto with Sharon). John Walker’s wife, like Lemar, was only there to support and humanize Walker; his actions didn’t effect her or their relationship. Val could have been the perfect Power Broker but wound up a fanservice tease to whatever the MCU will do with her. Sarah was cool but not a big character.

Look, I get it, it was Sam and Bucky’s show, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do better with their female characters!

[FurryFury]

Personally, I found FATWS badly written in general. Female characters weren't the only ones who suffered—everyone did, other than maybe Zemo.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 4/23/2021 at 11:00 AM, Spartan Girl said:

to another example for lazy writing for a female  character.

I think they might be actually be able to do something interesting with the change in Sharon's character. Because non-powered female intelligence agents who kick ass is kind of a character type that Marvel seems to always go to. Out of all of them, Sharon Carter seems like the least interesting, so maybe try something else with that character.

[JustHereForFood]

I hope it is OK to leave this here, because it touches on a lot of problems that BtVS had with gender. For context, this guy does review of every BtVS and Angel episode and tends to touch on a lot of interesting points, parallels, etc. He has always been critical of the way Buffy and Riley's relationship ended and makes IMO a lot of great points here about Riley's and Xander's actions in this episode, as well as how the episode itself takes a bias against Buffy.

 

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I hope it is OK to leave this here, because it touches on a lot of problems that BtVS had with gender. For context, this guy does review of every BtVS and Angel episode and tends to touch on a lot of interesting points, parallels, etc. He has always been critical of the way Buffy and Riley's relationship ended and makes IMO a lot of great points here about Riley's and Xander's actions in this episode, as well as how the episode itself takes a bias against Buffy.

 

YES!!!! Yes to everything this video said about Riley and Xander disregarding Buffy’s feelings, not respecting her feelings, and projecting all their crap. I never thought it was fair that Buffy was blamed for Riley’s cheating and being accused of “not being more vulnerable” with Riley. The guy in the video nailed it with this bit: “Being with someone does NOT mean they owe you their tears.”

[Danny Franks]

Hey, I've been on the "Xander is a misogynistic, Nice Guy, creep" train for many years. I've gone into a few different examples of it, and Xander being Joss's representative on the screen makes a lot of sense, in light of the revelations about Joss and his own creepy ways of dealing with women.

I barely remember anything about Riley other than him starting off as a very boring, milquetoast kind of guy, then being revealed as a military badass then as a raging ball of insecurity and jealousy.

[Kel Varnsen]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I barely remember anything about Riley other than him starting off as a very boring, milquetoast kind of guy, then being revealed as a military badass then as a raging ball of insecurity and jealousy.

From what little I remember he was still boring even after his being a soldier was revealed. Which in retrospect makes it kind of impressive that Captain America actually has a personality in Avengers. 

[Spartan Girl]

I’m glad the video also pointed out that Xander could have easily let Buffy know that Riley told him that he thought Buffy didn’t love him, but instead kept his mouth shut because lording his dubious moral superiority over everyone is what Xander does best.

[JustHereForFood]

Xander was the opposite of a good friend to Buffy here. A good friend would ask her first if she is ready to talk to him and then ask for her perspective, since it is, you know, about her relationship. Instead, he came with an already formed, biased opinion and patronizing attitude. Like, I'm sorry, but if even my best friend talked to me like that when I'm already justifiably pissed, I would not have replied in a nice way.

The same with Riley's ultimatum. If I was in Buffy's place here, even if I was inclined to give Riley a second chance (not likely, but let's pretend for a moment), if he gave me a fucking ultimatum, I would have sent him straight to hell. After which I would probably be called a bitch, cold, hysterical and too emotional (yes, cold and too emotional at the same time) by Riley, Xander and a portion of the fandom.

[biakbiak]

 With Riley I will suggest that there could have been a decent storyline which she fell for a regular nice dude but they refused to let that happen. I can’t ever hate it because the best acting Marc Blucas ever did in life is in Something Blue when he reacted to spellbound Buffy seeing her ideal wedding dress for her marriage to Spike! 

[Spartan Girl]

God forbid Buffy didn’t want to be too vulnerable in a relationship after all the times she got her heart ripped out and stomped on. And as the video pointed out, she got burned by Scott and Parker post-Angel, so Riley was not “the rebound guy.”

Riley getting all upset when Dawn told him how Buffy didn’t cry as much with him as she did with Angel. Uh, that’s a GOOD thing, dumbass!

[biakbiak]

8 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

God forbid Buffy didn’t want to be too vulnerable in a relationship after all the times she got her heart ripped out and stomped on. And as the video pointed out, she got burned by Scott and Parker post-Angel, so Riley was not “the rebound guy.”

I stand by my opinion that all of Buffy’s friends and family are straight up trash and I get that ASH wanted to move back to London but they could have written it differently than basically “oh buffy these morons pulled you out of heaven and are living in your mom’s bedroom rent free and want you to solve their problems, later!l”

I love the show In so many ways but it failed it’s lead at legit every turn!

Edited June 10, 2021 by biakbiak

[JustHereForFood]

 

10 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Riley getting all upset when Dawn told him how Buffy didn’t cry as much with him as she did with Angel. Uh, that’s a GOOD thing, dumbass!

Buffy: (about Riley) ... I just feel like something's missing.

Willow: He's not making you miserable?

Me, watching a second time: Don't worry, Buffy. He will, eventually.

[biakbiak]

Fuck this thread! It’s going to make me rewatch The Prom which involves several things highlighted but Smidge getting her tiny umbrella and dancing with that dufus Angel makes her happy!

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Fuck this thread! It’s going to make me rewatch The Prom which involves several things highlighted but Smidge getting her tiny umbrella and dancing with that dufus Angel makes her happy!

At least Angel never questioned why Buffy always had to be stronger than him.

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Riley getting all upset when Dawn told him how Buffy didn’t cry as much with him as she did with Angel. Uh, that’s a GOOD thing, dumbass!

Seriously! If a guy made me cry all the time I'd dump his ass. I guess I'm one of those weirdos who wants to see couples who boost each other up and make each other better people than they are rather than being miserable, jealous, angsty, scared or sad all the time meaning you've found your true love. If love makes you miserable you're doing it wrong. 

[biakbiak]

4 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

At least Angel never questioned why Buffy always had to be stronger than him.

He did creepily watch a 16 year old girl while she slept, made a ton of choices for her without asking her before and after she sent him to hell (based on what he felt was best for her) so yeah in boyfriends he is also all the red flags.

Edited June 10, 2021 by biakbiak

[Hiyo]

“Riley getting all upset when Dawn told him how Buffy didn’t cry as much with him as she did with Angel. Uh, that’s a GOOD thing, dumbass!”

Apparently unless your relationship features lots and lots of exquisite tortured drama and pain, it’s lacking in the love passion or something like that.

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Hiyo said:

“Riley getting all upset when Dawn told him how Buffy didn’t cry as much with him as she did with Angel. Uh, that’s a GOOD thing, dumbass!”

Apparently unless your relationship features lots and lots of exquisite tortured drama and pain, it’s lacking in the love passion or something like that.

Let me introduce you to the Bible of Joss Whedon... and of teen television in general.

Abuse is romantic, endless bickering is romantic, cheating is romantic, even suicide is apparently romantic. What's not romantic? Honesty and maturity.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Danny Franks

[JustHereForFood]

I'm wondering... is there some teenage series or genre series that is watched by a lot of teenagers, that portrays mostly healthy romantic relationships? I don't mean that everything has to be perfect, that would be boring to watch, but something where people in relationships are good at communication and even if there is something messed up it is portrayed in a way that is meant to be obvious to viewers, that it is messed up?    

I can't think of any on the top of my head : ( Most that I watched even if I hadn't seen it at the time, looking back I can see that there were some serious issues that were not properly addressed (like original Charmed).

[methodwriter85]

6 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I'm wondering... is there some teenage series or genre series that is watched by a lot of teenagers, that portrays mostly healthy romantic relationships? I don't mean that everything has to be perfect, that would be boring to watch, but something where people in relationships are good at communication and even if there is something messed up it is portrayed in a way that is meant to be obvious to viewers, that it is messed up?    

I can't think of any on the top of my head : ( Most that I watched even if I hadn't seen it at the time, looking back I can see that there were some serious issues that were not properly addressed (like original Charmed).

California Dreams the 90's sitcom that was basically Saved by the Bell the band? There was a love triangle here or there, but I remember the relationships being generally healthy on the show. 

[Spartan Girl]

Writers often confuse melodrama and angst as good writing.

On 6/10/2021 at 3:58 PM, biakbiak said:

 With Riley I will suggest that there could have been a decent storyline which she fell for a regular nice dude but they refused to let that happen

The problem is that a lot of the “nice, normal guys” Buffy fell for were Nice Guys. They wound up dumping Buffy because they were intimidated by her being so strong or she didn’t fit their ideal of what a girlfriend should be like. And instead of calling them out as jerks, the narrative was that it was all Buffy’s fault that she can’t maintain a healthy relationship. Either she was too naive or too aloof. Too strong or not strong enough. While Xander got to skate on “having the worst taste in women” without anyone pointing out that him being an immature jerk might be related.

[Hiyo]

Quote

Let me introduce you to the Bible of Joss Whedon... and of teen television in general.

Abuse is romantic, endless bickering is romantic, cheating is romantic, even suicide is apparently romantic. What's not romantic? Honesty and maturity.

Love is a battlefield at it's most extreme.

[WinnieWinkle]

19 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I can't think of any on the top of my head : ( Most that I watched even if I hadn't seen it at the time, looking back I can see that there were some serious issues that were not properly addressed (like original Charmed).

My days of watching shows aimed at teens are long over but what bothers me with the shows I do watch is when they have  female main characters as young as 11 or 12 dating.  It's like as soon as a girl on a show gets past the age where they are adorable little moppets the writers have no idea what to do with them so they thrust them into the teen world of dating and obssessing over clothes and boys and their appearance.  I totally grant that this is a reality for a lot of girls, even at that age - but it's also not the reality for a lot of other girls and you wouldn't really know that based on the wonderful world of television.   What's most annoying is I don't notice this as much with boys of this age who are main characters on shows - it's like at 11 or 12 a boy is still allowed to be a kid and do kid stuff but a girl isn't allowed to be a kid anymore.  I may be overthinking this.

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, WinnieWinkle said:

My days of watching shows aimed at teens are long over but what bothers me with the shows I do watch is when they have  female main characters as young as 11 or 12 dating.  It's like as soon as a girl on a show gets past the age where they are adorable little moppets the writers have no idea what to do with them so they thrust them into the teen world of dating and obssessing over clothes and boys and their appearance.  I totally grant that this is a reality for a lot of girls, even at that age - but it's also not the reality for a lot of other girls and you wouldn't really know that based on the wonderful world of television.   What's most annoying is I don't notice this as much with boys of this age who are main characters on shows - it's like at 11 or 12 a boy is still allowed to be a kid and do kid stuff but a girl isn't allowed to be a kid anymore.  I may be overthinking this.

Not hardly. It’s like the second they hit puberty, they automatically are thrust into the world of hormones. 

[Constant Viewer]

10 hours ago, WinnieWinkle said:

I totally grant that this is a reality for a lot of girls, even at that age - but it's also not the reality for a lot of other girls and you wouldn't really know that based on the wonderful world of television.

and for me, watching this when I was young, you wonder if you should start dating or going out with someone at the ripe old age of 11 or 12 and if you're not there's something wrong with you. 

[JustHereForFood]

11 hours ago, Constant Viewer said:

and for me, watching this when I was young, you wonder if you should start dating or going out with someone at the ripe old age of 11 or 12 and if you're not there's something wrong with you. 

I've had the same feeling about most teenagers on TV having sex from the age 16 or 17. Not that it is wrong, some people are ready at that age, but it looked like a norm to me at that time. I was really grateful to Gilmore Girls for having Rory wait until she was 19.

In relation to the posts above, does it seem to anyone else that the age to start having sex regularly has been changed to 15 now? I don't watch a lot of current shows with teenagers, but in The Fosters and Riverdale the norm seemed to be 15.

 

[Raja]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

I've had the same feeling about most teenagers on TV having sex from the age 16 or 17. Not that it is wrong, some people are ready at that age, but it looked like a norm to me at that time. I was really grateful to Gilmore Girls for having Rory wait until she was 19.

In relation to the posts above, does it seem to anyone else that the age to start having sex regularly has been changed to 15 now? I don't watch a lot of current shows with teenagers, but in The Fosters and Riverdale the norm seemed to be 15.

 

I have noticed that too. Going into the related race threads the teen shows were first with interracial relationships by a decade over adult characters and couples in advertisements, however it was with the cultural assumption that the virginal "kids' were just playing and learning

[Bastet]

20 hours ago, Constant Viewer said:

and for me, watching this when I was young, you wonder if you should start dating or going out with someone at the ripe old age of 11 or 12 and if you're not there's something wrong with you. 

That was me.  I switched elementary schools when I was eleven (starting the new school in sixth grade), and at recess at my old school we had all been kids, hanging out talking and engaging in various activities (I was a tetherball champ).  At my new school, the boys did stuff, but the girls just walked around the field in groups talking to each other - often about boys.  And boys and girls were "going together".  No one actually went anywhere, of course, being 11-12 years old, but pairing up was a thing.  This was so utterly strange to me (I hated that school for several reasons), but when I turned on the TV, girls my age were all boy crazy.  So it felt like my old peeps and I were the anomaly - worse, it felt like we were weirdos.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 6/10/2021 at 4:19 PM, biakbiak said:

I stand by my opinion that all of Buffy’s friends and family are straight up trash and I get that ASH wanted to move back to London but they could have written it differently than basically “oh buffy these morons pulled you out of heaven and are living in your mom’s bedroom rent free and want you to solve their problems, later!l”

I love the show In so many ways but it failed it’s lead at legit every turn!

Mmm. In that case, its a good thing Spike was there to be supportive and a good sounding board for Buffy, and not at all exploitative of her depression and self-loathing. Being, y'know, that it was the Year of the Great Blackwash where literally every other character gets smacked with a tarry brush in order to make him look like her only option. And two decades later, he's way more often seen as the victim that she took advantage of, up to and including him trying to force himself on her. If the show failed Buffy in this instance, it was in giving in to the desire for a fanservice relationship. I can say many things against Joss Whedon as a creator, but it isn't entirely his fault that the soulless murderer became too popular to kill off.

 

On 6/12/2021 at 7:20 AM, Spartan Girl said:

 While Xander got to skate on “having the worst taste in women” without anyone pointing out that him being an immature jerk might be related.

Skate? I can recall quite a few times when both Buffy and Willow talked about his relationships in none-too-glowing terms, and it's especially grating that Willow's got the nerve to say "you'd rather be with someone you hate than with me." Which is only different than "I guess a guy has to be undead to make time with you" in the sense that Willow never actually takes the risk Xander does with Buffy, actually *tell* him that she'd like to be more than friends. I guess being a girl means she was entitled to think he should drop into her lap, and that's considered cute.

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

In that case, its a good thing Spike was there to be supportive and a good sounding board for Buffy

I never suggested that it was a good thing that Spike was “there” for Buffy or mentioned him in my post because I don’t include him in her friends or family. 

[JustHereForFood]

Ugh, no Spike for me, please. That whole storyline was degrading to Buffy, IMO. She really got the raw deal when it came to love interests. 

And speaking of Spike, I really dislike the trope of the "bad boy" falling in "love" with the good girl. I am using the word love loosely here, because it usually is just attraction/wanting something you can't have, with an unhealthy dose of stalking or creepy behavior. I find it especially gross, when the character apparently wants to change for the better, but only because of the love interest, so his whole redemption arc is based on the "love" storyline and as a result, the love interest is often presented as responsible for his behavior. I like a good redemption story, don't get me wrong, but if the character doesn't want to change for themself, but only because they want a relationship with someone, it is not a good start. The worst case of this IMO was Damon from The Vampire Diaries and I still feel ashamed for initially shipping that. I am eternally grateful that I only watched Buffy a few years ago in my late 20's, because if I watched it as a teenager, I just know I would have been all over both Angel and then Spike, because I used to eat that BS up all the time (for example, Cole and Phoebe from Charmed). Now it sort of makes me nauseous.

[Spartan Girl]

I’m over the bad boy trope too. Everyone’s obsession with Zemo on The Falcon and the Winter Soldier made me roll my eyes. Especially because I feel like the writers wasted time giving him unnecessary charm and nuance that he didn’t deserve at the expense of certain characters that frankly needed a better storyline in general.

[peachmangosteen]

Wrong thread lol.

[Scarlett45]

On 6/12/2021 at 9:13 AM, WinnieWinkle said:

My days of watching shows aimed at teens are long over but what bothers me with the shows I do watch is when they have  female main characters as young as 11 or 12 dating.  It's like as soon as a girl on a show gets past the age where they are adorable little moppets the writers have no idea what to do with them so they thrust them into the teen world of dating and obssessing over clothes and boys and their appearance.  I totally grant that this is a reality for a lot of girls, even at that age - but it's also not the reality for a lot of other girls and you wouldn't really know that based on the wonderful world of television.   What's most annoying is I don't notice this as much with boys of this age who are main characters on shows - it's like at 11 or 12 a boy is still allowed to be a kid and do kid stuff but a girl isn't allowed to be a kid anymore.  I may be overthinking this.

I have found writers really have a hard time with kids age 7-16, UNLESS they are writing specifically for a children's network. Once kids get out of the "precious adorable wise beyond their years" trope, they make them mini adults with adult problems.

And yes, girls are sexualized way earlier than boys are. True on average we do hit puberty first, and I have no problem with writing first crushes and things for middle school aged kids, so long as it is done in an age appropriate way. Once a girl hits puberty we know we are a target for sexualized violence and that sucks.

On 6/13/2021 at 7:13 AM, JustHereForFood said:

In relation to the posts above, does it seem to anyone else that the age to start having sex regularly has been changed to 15 now? I don't watch a lot of current shows with teenagers, but in The Fosters and Riverdale the norm seemed to be 15.

 I loved The Fosters, some of the teens were having sex, but many were not. They also addressed how vulnerable foster kids are to be groomed by the people they depend on. I thought they addressed Callie's assault by a former foster brother very well.

 

On 6/13/2021 at 8:18 AM, Raja said:

I have noticed that too. Going into the related race threads the teen shows were first with interracial relationships by a decade over adult characters and couples in advertisements, however it was with the cultural assumption that the virginal "kids' were just playing and learning

Also with kids dating/hanging out, there isnt money, social status and procreation involved (usually).

 

On 6/11/2021 at 1:31 PM, JustHereForFood said:

I'm wondering... is there some teenage series or genre series that is watched by a lot of teenagers, that portrays mostly healthy romantic relationships? I don't mean that everything has to be perfect, that would be boring to watch, but something where people in relationships are good at communication and even if there is something messed up it is portrayed in a way that is meant to be obvious to viewers, that it is messed up?    

I think Degrassi showed some good relationships. Some sucky ones, but kids on Degrassi did get called out on their BS or when they were being ridiculous. Also when someone was being mistreated in a relationship they stood up for themselves. I do miss Degrassi- it was a great series.

[possibilities]

Love, Victor has some healthy teen relationships. 

 

[Scarlett45]

19 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Love, Victor has some healthy teen relationships. 

 

I saw Love, Simon this month for Pride Month, and your recommendation makes me want to watch "Love Victor" all the more.

[possibilities]

I'm way too old for it, but I really like it. Season 2 is even better than season 1, in my opinion, though you can't really make sense of 2 w/o watching 1 first. I like both more than I liked the movie.

[Scarlett45]

15 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I'm way too old for it, but I really like it. Season 2 is even better than season 1, in my opinion, though you can't really make sense of 2 w/o watching 1 first. I like both more than I liked the movie.

I am 35, so I assume I am too old for it too, but I will likely start when I finish up One Tree Hill and Dawson's Creek. 

[JustHereForFood]

I second the recommendation for Love, Victor.

[possibilities]

I think those of us who didn't get age appropriate representation when we were that age are sometimes going back in time to catch up now that it's available. I never understood teen shows when I was a teen. For that matter, I never understood other teens, for the most part. Suddenly I'm all: aha! Now I get it!

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I think those of us who didn't get age appropriate representation when we were that age are sometimes going back in time to catch up now that it's available. I never understood teen shows when I was a teen. For that matter, I never understood other teens, for the most part. Suddenly I'm all: aha! Now I get it!

I watch more teen shows now that I'm in my forties and when I was a teen I watched shows far older than I should have. I'm like a TV Benjamin Button. 

[Spartan Girl]

So Kevin Can F*** Himself does done a pretty good job of taking on the sitcom wife trope, not only because it doesn’t shy away of how just how much of an abusive asshole Kevin really is, but it also isn’t afraid to show that Allison is kind of an asshole too. It doesn’t portray Allison as some long-suffering saint. There are plenty of ways she could solve her problems, like leave Kevin or at the very least put her foot down and tell him no, but she refuses to do it because it’s too hard for her; she’d rather skip right to murder because she feels Kevin “deserves” it. She’s also drawn into a relationship of her ex, not necessarily because he’s better than Kevin, but also because his wife was a snob that looked down on her in high school and she wants to stick it to her—in fact, they already have a history of messing around behind her back. 

And that might answer the big question of why she wound up with Kevin in the first place: because sometimes toxic people attract toxic people. It was summed up beautifully in Gone Girl when Nick called Amy a [REDACTED] and Amy threw it back in his face: “I’m the [REDACTED] you married. The only time you ever liked yourself was when you were trying to impress this [REDACTED].”

Which is why I’m heartily sick of the “what’s a hot lady like that doing with a fat loser” or that someone is dating a person “way of of their league” tropes. Looks aren’t everything, and nobody should throw that in anybody’s face, especially not their friends and family. Would we find it entertaining if a plain girl was dating a hot guy and got that thrown in her face by her friends, family, and said love interest? No! We’d be calling them all jerks and encouraging her to dump his ass. Gender should not make a difference.

[WinnieWinkle]

Caught an episode of Two and Half Men last night that got on my last nerve.  It's never been a show that cast women in a positive light (or men either for that matter) but the episode last night has womanizer Charlie make a snotty comment about his mother "Mom has been on more hotel pillows than a chocolate mint".  So, essentially he can sleep around, have casual sex with woman after woman but if a woman behaves in the same way this is something to comment on in a derogatory manner?  The writers of this show really could be pictured in the dictionary next to "Double Standard".

[Spartan Girl]

Nobody on Two and a Half was written well, ESPECIALLY the female characters. I’ll leave it at that.

[Mabinogia]

2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Nobody on Two and a Half was written well, ESPECIALLY the female characters. I’ll leave it at that.

The only character I remotely liked on that show was Rose, and that was 100% because of the actress. 

[proserpina65]

On 7/9/2021 at 6:48 PM, Mabinogia said:

The only character I remotely liked on that show was Rose, and that was 100% because of the actress. 

I did like the mother, but also just because of the actress.  Not that I watched very often.  Sometimes I was stuck someplace where it was on the tv.

[aradia22]

Quote

because I used to eat that BS up all the time (for example, Cole and Phoebe from Charmed). 

Tbf, Julian McMahon was incredibly hot and you knew he was awful. I mean, he was the Source of All Evil. 😂 I do think they tried to woobie him once they broke up though.

[Spartan Girl]

So the overhyping of the "Captain Carter" aka Peggy Carter becoming the A/U Cap in the new show What If...? just kind of rings hollow for me. Because we already had a show where Peggy got to be the hero and forge her own path, and that was Agent Carter! Peggy never needed superpowers to be awesome; she knew her own worth. 

Plus, and I'm sorry, but Hayley Atwell acting like Captain Carter is this big revolutionary step for female characters in the MCU just annoys me because

1) Captain Marvel did it first. Hell, Natasha finally got her own movie, not to mention how Wanda and Monica Rambeau did beautifully in WandaVision. 

2) While there are plenty of MCU female characters that have been sidelined, fridged, and never given their rightful due, Peggy was not one of them. She was one of the founders of SHIELD, she had her own special, her own show (before ABC cancelled it and Feige retconned it out of existence), etc....

It really just feels that the MCU is trying to overcompensate for reducing her to the trophy Steve cheats his way to in Endgame.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Kel Varnsen]

Wow it seems like she is putting way too much importance on an alternate universe cartoon. I wonder if Peggy shows up in the Modok cartoon? 

Although it is not surprising that she would buy into it, considering how how up the MCU held Peggy Carter. With the way Cap and the AoS people spoke about her it was like she was a saint or something. Which always seems weird to me since if she was so awesome yet never noticed that her agency was completely infiltrated by their worst enemy.