I Am Cait in the Media

[Kromm]

Mother?

 

Okay, can someone dig up both Caitlyn's stated preference on this, as well as the particular GLAAD guideline here?  I could swear Caitlyn herself said she wanted to continue to identify as their father.  And I think she's right on that. I know, for example, that adoptees can and do call their adoptive female parent their mother, but in THIS case (vs. adoption), where there is a biological role involved of sperm donor, isn't that a pretty hard and fast definition of a father (at least in a biological sense)?  We can call it "biological father" when (and specifically when) people really want to split the hair between a man who raised them and a man who donated sperm. But applying towards transition, it actually seems even more basic. You are a female in that case, who's is also the father.  Where's the conflict in that language vs. flipping the script and using mother?  Especially when all three of these Jenner boys have, I think, living mothers actively using that title (and it would be different, of course if those women weren't around, or if a transgender parent has raised the child from the start using the title of mother--as opposed to taking it on so late in life and in the relationship).
 

Also, I recognize that children of two lesbian parents may indeed have two mothers. But that's not a retroactive change. That's established all along.  But it's not the retroactive aspect that bothers me (since that retroactivity is also true of the post-transition changes in pronoun and name usage). It's that in most cases someone who's transitioned isn't going to be living with/still in a relationship with the birth mother of their child anymore. There won't be that same opportunity for negotiation/agreement on who has what title. So in THAT specific case, by assuming the title of mother instead of father they really ARE taking on something that potentially excludes someone else. And it's SO unnecessary. Any gender associations of the word father are only in people's heads. Having a female father (and one CALLED both of those things at the same time) shouldn't be a big deal.  It should be a non-issue.

 

I fear the argument that might result here after the last few language kerfunkles over stuff like this. Which is why I'm ASKING what GLAAD rules on this rather than bitching about what I think they MIGHT rule.  The word mother is not contained in the Media Reference Guide David linked to at the top of the forum, at least that I saw, other than in the context "Never put quotation marks around descriptions such as family, parents, mothers or fathers when describing families with gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender parents."

Edited September 7, 2015 by Kromm

[millennium]

Mother?   I was objecting to the article's description of Jenner as an "actor."   Didn't they ever see CHiPs?

 

Kidding!

 

I have never heard of an instance where a transgender woman who fathered children earlier in life was retroactively referred to as "mother."   Some things are immutable.

Edited September 7, 2015 by millennium

[princelina]

Caitlin said on her show, "I want them to be proud of their daddy."

[Mya Stone]

Stop it with the semantic arguments. We get it. Ultimately this forum is to discuss things that happen on the show I Am Cait, not to debate all issues of language regarding transgender issues. Nor is it here for you all to attempt to solve all the world's problems. Your focus is not to attack anyone going through the process of transitioning. Cait is a human who is allowed to decide how she wants her children to refer to her. It is not a unilateral decision but one she gets to make within her family.

Just because Caitlyn Jenner has decided to transition in such a public way does not mean that your opinion will dictate how the rest of the world proceeds. As she has been demonstrating, it is an individual journey for everyone. Proclamations do not equal conversation and in fact inhibit conversation, and what is needed right now is a place for people to be comfortable. And that means understanding that what you think and your way is not the only way.

[SFoster21]

Caitlin plays golf with Matt Lauer tomorrow. A question is asked about the auto accident.

[Kromm]

Okay, no language questions then. How about videos of Ellen DeGeneris instead, talking about Caitlyn?

 

[Cosmocrush]

And  here you can see Caitlyn talk to Ellen about how she's evolved to accept gay marriage over time because she 1) doesn't want to stand in the way of anyone's happiness and 2) it's the law of the land.    She also addresses the dating issue - very rehearsed  but pretty good I think. 

 

 

[Artsda]

Ellen DeGeneres comments on Caitlyn Jenner's gay marriage views

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/09/08/ellen-degeneres-caitlyn-jenner-gay-marriage

 

Ellen DeGeneres was surprised to hear Caitlyn Jenner’s thoughts about gay marriage during the former Olympian’s interview on the season premiere of The Ellen DeGeneres Show. “She still has a judgement about gay marriage,” DeGeneres told Howard Stern on the Tuesday edition of his SiriusXM show.

 

Jenner, whose segment with DeGeneres aired on Tuesday, told the host in a pre-taped interview that she did not initially support gay marriage. “I’m a traditionalist,” Jenner said. “I’m older than most people in the audience. I kind of like tradition, and it’s always been a man and a woman. I’m thinking, ‘I don’t quite get it.’”

 

The 65-year-old, who came out as transgender in April of this year, went on to say that her views on the subject had evolved over time. “I think, like a lot of people on this issue, I have really changed my thinking here to, ‘I don’t ever want to stand in front of anybody’s happiness.’ That’s not my job, okay? If that word – ‘marriage’ – is really, really that important to you, I can go with it,” Jenner said.

 

Speaking to Stern on Tuesday, DeGeneres, who is married to actress Portia De Rossi, said Jenner’s stance was confusing. “I said, ‘You’re wanting people to understand and accept you – this is like, really confusing to people. And you still have a judgement about gay people and marriage,’” DeGeneres said. “She goes, ‘Well if the word marriage is that important.’ It is. That’s the word. We want the same thing.”

 

DeGeneres said Jenner was “a great interview,” but that the I Am Cait star didn’t dance with the host like so many previous guests. “I don’t think she’s a dancer,” she said. “Maybe she didn’t want to dance with me because I’m a lesbian.”

 

Jokes aside, DeGeneres told Stern that she wanted Jenner to be happy, “which is what I want for her for me.”

 

Watch the full segment on Jenner via Stern’s SiriusXM channel.

[Athena5217]

Ellen's face when Caitlyn says "if the word marriage is important to you" is priceless. You can tell she is trying not to reveal anything because she's doing an interview, but she really wants to say, "Hell yeah it's important". I think Cait came off very patronizing in the interview like "I don't agree with gay marriage and I'll never consider 2 women married, but I'll humor you if you want me to call it that."

I would have thought by now she would have learned from HRC and GLAAD that words are important. Equality and non-judgment are important, and we shouldn't trivialize an issue that someone thinks is their basic human right like getting married or deciding to live as your true self after 60 years of hiding. Why is she the only one that doesn't see the hipocracy?

[Adiba]

And  here you can see Caitlyn talk to Ellen about how she's evolved to accept gay marriage over time because she 1) doesn't want to stand in the way of anyone's happiness and 2) it's the law of the land.    She also addresses the dating issue - very rehearsed  but pretty good I think. 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n8QskfvUfg

Maybe Cait should go into politics, she's pretty good at doing the side- step. I don't really care who or what gender she decides to date ( if at all), but the way that she mentions being old -fashioned leads me to think that she would be very very hesitant to label herself anything other than straight. But, who knows? Her thinking may evolve as her own circumstances change.

[iwasish]

I see from the Matt Lauer interview that she has gotten new teeth and had her lips plumped up.

 

Suddenly trans women in a men's jail in a bad thing, but in a men's locker room at a golf club it's OK?

 

And If you hit someone in the rear, it's almost 99.9% your fault for travelling to closely behind or driving too fast for the road conditions. She was always lecturing her kids and Scott to accept responsibility for their actions.. now it's her turn to do just that,

[millennium]

Ellen DeGeneres comments on Caitlyn Jenner's gay marriage views

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/09/08/ellen-degeneres-caitlyn-jenner-gay-marriage

 

Speaking to Stern on Tuesday, DeGeneres, who is married to actress Portia De Rossi, said Jenner’s stance was confusing. “I said, ‘You’re wanting people to understand and accept you – this is like, really confusing to people. And you still have a judgement about gay people and marriage,’” DeGeneres said. “She goes, ‘Well if the word marriage is that important.’ It is. That’s the word. We want the same thing.”

 

DeGeneres said Jenner was “a great interview,” but that the I Am Cait star didn’t dance with the host like so many previous guests. “I don’t think she’s a dancer,” she said. “Maybe she didn’t want to dance with me because I’m a lesbian.”

 

Jokes aside, DeGeneres told Stern that she wanted Jenner to be happy, “which is what I want for her for me.”

 

 

I don't usually watch Ellen.   I have never been able to warm up to her.   Now I'm thinking maybe it's just her stage presence that isn't my cup of tea because she comes across as very kind and empathetic in the Stern clip.   She expresses her dismay about Jenner's social hypocrisy but without bitterness.   She doesn't say so but she seems to feel sorry for Jenner.

 

Although Jenner didn't exactly give the transgender community a black eye while sitting down with Ellen, she squandered a golden opportunity to demonstrate that transgender people deserve acceptance and equality -- largely because she was too busy demonstrating that gay people don't deserve acceptance and equality.   Rather than imparting the message, "Gay people are entitled to be married because they deserve the same rights as everybody else," Jenner gave the impression, I don't really agree with gay marrriage, but since it's the law now I guess I'll be a sport about it and say what the heck.   See how open-minded I am?

 

When Ellen joked “Maybe she didn’t want to dance with me because I’m a lesbian,” it was funny but sad too.   Here's Ellen, a luminary of the LGBT world.   She welcomes Jenner to her show, affords her a great opportunity to win hearts and minds  -- even bills her as one of "three women who are changing the world" -- and for her trouble she's left with an aftertaste of homophobia.

 

Why would anyone -- gay people especially -- feel inclined to give transgender people a chance after watching that?

 

I'll dance with you, Ellen.  Anytime.

[freeradical]

Millennium- I agree. I am pretty sure people know Caitlyn doesn't represent all transgender people but her conservative politics are confounding to most of us because they should be. It totally contradicts who she is with what she believes. It's the most puzzling thing to me in all of this. Clearly, she is afraid to be gay. She said to Diane Sawyer "I'm not gay, Diane, I've always been attracted to women." not understanding that being a transwoman who is attracted to women technically means she is a lesbian. I think the reaction to her closed minded views is appropriate. It does not make sense!

Edited September 9, 2015 by freeradical

[ClareWalks]

She said to Diane Sawyer "I'm not gay, Diane, I've always been attracted to women." not understanding that being a transwoman who is attracted to women technically means she is a lesbian

 

YES! Thank you! Caitlyn even talks about how she isn't sure what gender she is more attracted to anymore, so why in the world would she be so closed-minded about homosexuality? It is such a disconnect. Not to get too political, but it reminds me of pro-life folks who have gotten abortions. It's like, "it's okay for ME, but not for anyone else," not noticing that it's because certain things are legal and protected that they are able to have such options in the first place. The struggles that gay people have made to have their rights has directly contributed to Caitlyn's ability to live life as she is, and her lack of gratitude and awareness is disappointing.

[Kromm]

Suddenly trans women in a men's jail in a bad thing, but in a men's locker room at a golf club it's OK?

It IS confusing.  But I do think the issue of what tees she uses are different from which locker room she uses. So we've got an extra thing to consider in that jail/golf comparison.

[iwasish]

It IS confusing. But I do think the issue of what tees she uses are different from which locker room she uses. So we've got an extra thing to consider in that jail/golf comparison.

I agree with you there is a grey area but I just find it interesting that Cait is so quick to use the transgender issue as a concern. I think law enforcement would rather use the Olympic hero/reality show star celebrity status of Cait in order to give her special segregation rather than have to deal with the transgender issue.

[millennium]

Just me, or was anyone else struck by the grotesque contrast of discussing a woman's death on the sunny greens of an exclusive country club?  Not to mention wrapping up the interview with the very poorly chosen platitude, "You have to enjoy life.  Life's too short." 

 

But then, Jenner seems so wrapped up in her own myth that she's unconcerned about the impact her words and actions have.   For example, Lauer raises the possibility that she'll do time in a men's prison -- and Jenner laughs.   Obviously people can draw their own conclusion about what she found so humorous.   To me, it seemed she was laughing at the possibility that she'll face anything more severe than a fine.   Who laughs when asked about going to prison?  And jokes "That's what the media wants."   It's like Kim Howe's death is more about her more than Kim Howe.

 

Then, incredibly, Jenner throws GLAAD and the transgender community under the bus -- more than once.  First, by scoffing at GLAAD's insistence on proper pronouns and then by ridiculing the community's outcry over the Caitlyn Jenner Halloween costume.  While I actually share Jenner's "why so serious?" point of view on those two matters, you don't go on the Today show and thumb your nose at people and organizations who have freely given their time and effort to make your life easier.   You just don't.   It's rude.    It gives the appearance that she got what she wanted from the little people for her show, now she's back on her cushy golf course and it's all just fodder for laughs with her golf buddies.

 

Finally, she talked more about her wealth and the fact that she "put a few bucks away, it's the American dream" than she did about the risks and realities other transgender people face, reducing it to a bumper sticker: "people are dying over this issue."   

 

She did address the matter of transgender women being housed in men's prisons but her concern seemed fleeting and was brushed off with a "we're working on that," whatever the heck that means.

 

I also noticed she went out of her way to state that she didn't "ask" for the ESPY, which seems to contradict everything we've read about the matter.

Edited September 9, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

Just me, or was anyone else struck by the grotesque contrast of discussing a woman's death on the sunny greens of an exclusive country club?  Not to mention wrapping up the interview with the very poorly chosen platitude, "You have to enjoy life.  Life's too short." 

 

But then, Jenner seems so wrapped up in her own myth that she's unconcerned about the impact her words and actions have.   For example, Lauer raises the possibility that she'll do time in a men's prison -- and Jenner laughs.   Obviously people can draw their own conclusion about what she found so humorous.   To me, it seemed she was laughing at the possibility that she'll face anything more severe than a fine.   Who laughs when asked about going to prison?  And jokes "That's what the media wants."   It's like Kim Howe's death is more about her more than Kim Howe.

 

Then, incredibly, Jenner throws GLAAD and the transgender community under the bus -- more than once.  First, by scoffing at GLAAD's insistence on proper pronouns and then by ridiculing the community's outcry over the Caitlyn Jenner Halloween costume.  While I actually share Jenner's "why so serious?" point of view on those two matters, you don't go on the Today show and thumb your nose at people and organizations who have freely given their time and effort to make your life easier.   You just don't.   It's rude.    It gives the appearance that she got what she wanted from the little people for her show, now she's back on her cushy golf course and it's all just fodder for laughs with her golf buddies.

 

Finally, she talked more about her wealth and the fact that she "put a few bucks away, it's the American dream" than she did about the risks and realities other transgender people face, reducing it to a bumper sticker: "people are dying over this issue."   

 

She did address the matter of transgender women being housed in men's prisons but her concern seemed fleeting and was brushed off with a "we're working on that," whatever the heck that means.

 

I also noticed she went out of her way to state that she didn't "ask" for the ESPY, which seems to contradict everything we've read about the matter.

It's a complicated bag of reactions, it sure is.

 

On one level I understand how GLAAD being self-appointed arbiters can get under people's skin. It's happened here on this forum, and no doubt happens outside in the Transgender world at large too. But it's really rich someone like Caitlyn Jenner trying to leverage an association with these people but also toss bricks at them at the same time. 

 

The stuff about her not working the system to get that ESPY is a flat out lie. It may have started with some P.R. person or something like that, but even in the less cynical interpretations, it was a Team Jenner publicity move to promote a reality show (vs. the more cynical version, where it was maybe about getting her out of a jail sentence).

 

Really I think this interview just highlights that Caitlyn's worst quality is that she has no sense of when to just shut her mouth. She just keeps digging herself in deeper.

[represent]

I get the impression that Caityn wants to continue to be treated with all the perks that come with being a white man in America.  I think she still identifies with those perks so to speak.  I think she wants to have it both ways and this is one of the reasons for the disconnect that I'm seeing between her and the transgender community. She definitely comes off sometimes as if she thinks she's better than them.

 

For example, when she went to the support group with Chandi, they were sharing their experiences and I think someone talked about filling out applications and how hard it is to know what to choose in terms of gender, then you had them speak on the driver's license picture not matching their current features, and I was like why didn't Caitlyn share with them. I mean, we had just seen the clip with her talking about the golf club locker room, then with I forgot the woman's name, but the one that was talking to her about legally changing her name. But she never shared as if to say oh yeah, I'm experiencing that right now etc...and I was.....just to connect. It's like she sits in those meetings and acts like she's some counselor who's seen it all and is all settled  and is going to help these poor souls....when she needs the same help and support. We see her admit some in her talking heads but when she's in these groups,  I don't know, again, just a disconnect, like I'm really not like them.

 

One other thing, it's clear to me that she's still attracted to women and I would also go so far as to say that if she could have gone through this and stayed with Chris Jenner, she would have if it were an option.  As ugh, those of us find the Kardashians  and Chris Jenner  to be, I think she loved it as miserable as she appeared to be.She liked that they managed her money and she could fly her planes and do all her other hobbies, the only thing is she had to dress as a man and be a man doing them. I truly think she wishes she had what, I can't remember her name but the woman whose wife stayed with her transitioning and they are still together. 

Edited September 10, 2015 by represent

[iwasish]

I get the impression that Caityn wants to continue to be treated with all the perks that come with being a white man in America. I think she still identifies with those perks so to speak. I think she wants to have it both ways and this is one of the reasons for the disconnect that I'm seeing between her and the transgender community. She definitely comes off sometimes as if she thinks she's better than them.

For example, when she went to the support group with Chandi, they were sharing their experiences and I think someone talked about filling out applications and how hard it is to know what to choose in terms of gender, then you had them speak on the driver's license picture not matching their current features, and I was like why didn't Caitlyn share with them. I mean, we had just seen the clip with her talking about the golf club locker room, then with I forgot the woman's name, but the one that was talking to her about legally changing her name. But she never shared as if to say oh yeah, I'm experiencing that right now etc...and I was.....just to connect. It's like she sits in those meetings and acts like she's some counselor who's seen it all and is all settled and is going to help these poor souls....when she needs the same help and support. We see her admit some in her talking heads but when she's in these groups, I don't know, again, just a disconnect, like I'm really not like them.

One other thing, it's clear to me that she's still attracted to women and I would also go so far as to say that if she could have gone through this and stayed with Chris Jenner, she would have if it were an option. As ugh, those of us find the Kardashians and Chris Jenner to be, I think she loved it as miserable as she appeared to be.She liked that they managed her money and she could fly her planes and do all her other hobbies, the only thing is she had to dress as a man and be a man doing them. I truly think she wishes she had what, I can't remember her name but the woman whose wife stayed with her transitioning and they are still together.

I kinda got the impression, and maybe it will be clarified when we see Kris and Cait converse next week, that Cait might not have gone to the extreme of transitioning if she had been able to be open about her cross dressing and be free to be Cait around the house. i guess Kris wasn't on board with that scenario and both of them became angry and frustrated with the other. Kris then used the Kimye pregnancy and them moving in with her to push Cait out to Malibu.

But either way It seems that Cait isn't happy with the transgender label and the whole straight/gay issue it forces her to address. She doesn't appear to have done much research prior to taking the plunge. Her attitude at the various meetings and groups she's attended on the show, comes across as if she is an expert after just a brief time and then she becomes irritated if there's any sense that she's not getting 100% positive feedback and she becomes defensive. She's used to getting applause and admiration at all the motivational speeches she gives and expects the same in these group gatherings.

[Kromm]

She did address the matter of transgender women being housed in men's prisons but her concern seemed fleeting and was brushed off with a "we're working on that," whatever the heck that means.

This can be interpreted in two ways, I think, and both kind of say different things about Caitlyn Jenner and her privilege. 

 

The most literal interpretation is that she meant her people were working on her own potential jailing situation and trying to work the system to ensure the result she wants. Understandable, if at the same time an ugly statement about how someone with power and money will assume a solution that others just have to suffer though.  The catch to this is, I don't see why she'd even be talking in terms of going to jail. She's not going to jail, and we all know that--herself most of all.

 

Less literal is the possibility that she's not talking about her own potential (if unlikely) jailing and once again playing the noble new leader swooping in to save the poor helpless Transwomen who have already been working on this for decades.  We've heard Caitlyn do this "we're working on it" thing before, like she's the new Queen of The Transgender Peoples, and honestly, hasn't it been insulting and presumptive every single time?

[millennium]

This can be interpreted in two ways, I think, and both kind of say different things about Caitlyn Jenner and her privilege. 

 

The most literal interpretation is that she meant her people were working on her own potential jailing situation and trying to work the system to ensure the result she wants. Understandable, if at the same time an ugly statement about how someone with power and money will assume a solution that others just have to suffer though.  The catch to this is, I don't see why she'd even be talking in terms of going to jail. She's not going to jail, and we all know that--herself most of all.

 

Less literal is the possibility that she's not talking about her own potential (if unlikely) jailing and once again playing the noble new leader swooping in to save the poor helpless Transwomen who have already been working on this for decades.  We've heard Caitlyn do this "we're working on it" thing before, like she's the new Queen of The Transgender Peoples, and honestly, hasn't it been insulting and presumptive every single time?

 

I took it as the latter interpretation, and yes, it did sound insulting and patronizing.   There was an imperious quality to the whole interview as she stalked across the golf course as though surveying her domain.   Matt Lauer even seemed to play along, acting demure and hesitant to ask questions of the benevolent leader.  

 

Call me crazy, but if I were to be interviewed on national TV knowing I would be asked about pending charges for another person's death, I would dress conservatively and make sure it was a neutral setting instead of one that screamed wealth and pleasure.  The matter of Kim Howe's death seemed an inconvenience to Jenner, about as important as a cloud marring the beautiful California sky.

Edited September 10, 2015 by millennium

[iwasish]

I took it as the latter interpretation, and yes, it did sound insulting and patronizing. There was an imperious quality to the whole interview as she stalked across the golf course as though surveying her domain. Matt Lauer even seemed to play along, acting demure and hesitant to ask questions of the benevolent leader.

Call me crazy, but if I were to be interviewed on national TV knowing I would be asked about pending charges for another person's death, I would dress conservatively and make sure it was a neutral setting instead of one that screamed wealth and pleasure. The matter of Kim Howe's death seemed an inconvenience to Jenner, about as important as a cloud marring the beautiful California sky.

Nothing ruins a good round of golf like a discussion of an automobile accident with a fatality. It just ruins the whole experience. Edited September 10, 2015 by iwasish

[Cosmocrush]

I get the impression that Caityn wants to continue to be treated with all the perks that come with being a white man in America.  I think she still identifies with those perks so to speak.  I think she wants to have it both ways and this is one of the reasons for the disconnect that I'm seeing between her and the transgender community. She definitely comes off sometimes as if she thinks she's better than them.

 

For example, when she went to the support group with Chandi, they were sharing their experiences and I think someone talked about filling out applications and how hard it is to know what to choose in terms of gender, then you had them speak on the driver's license picture not matching their current features, and I was like why didn't Caitlyn share with them. I mean, we had just seen the clip with her talking about the golf club locker room, then with I forgot the woman's name, but the one that was talking to her about legally changing her name. But she never shared as if to say oh yeah, I'm experiencing that right now etc...and I was.....just to connect. It's like she sits in those meetings and acts like she's some counselor who's seen it all and is all settled  and is going to help these poor souls....when she needs the same help and support. We see her admit some in her talking heads but when she's in these groups,  I don't know, again, just a disconnect, like I'm really not like them.

 

One other thing, it's clear to me that she's still attracted to women and I would also go so far as to say that if she could have gone through this and stayed with Chris Jenner, she would have if it were an option.  As ugh, those of us find the Kardashians  and Chris Jenner  to be, I think she loved it as miserable as she appeared to be.She liked that they managed her money and she could fly her planes and do all her other hobbies, the only thing is she had to dress as a man and be a man doing them. I truly think she wishes she had what, I can't remember her name but the woman whose wife stayed with her transitioning and they are still together. 

I'm not sure Caitlyn thinks she's "better than them" in as much she realizes her life has been very different from the transgender people she is meeting on the show; that she has led a very privileged life in comparison with the good fortune to have escaped so much of the trauma the members of her new community have experienced. 

 

I respectfully saw that scene very differently.  I think Cait knows it would have been highly inappropriate to compare filling out an exclusive and expensive country club membership application to  being stopped and hassled by the police because  someone's driver's license gender doesn't match the way they are presenting.   I saw her sitting quietly as listening rather than talking.    

 

Unfortunately I didn't see the interview with Matt Lauer but I did see  the entire Ellen interview (it's about 22 minutes) and I thought Cait did okay.   The first thing she said was she knows her transition/journey is very different from most transgender persons, which I took to mean she has resources most people do not.   

 

On the dating question she told Ellen that she's hanging out with women who transitioned 15-20 years ago and how now people are able to transition younger and younger so dating does come up for them especially.  because of course they would like to find a partner and have a family, something she said that can be extraordinarily difficult for people in the community.    Caitlyn said that she's already had those things - 10 children and almost 8 grandchildren - and that part of her life (at age 65) is over; she added that she's too busy right now to think about dating but she imagines she will get to that place eventually.   All of which I thought made perfect sense.  Also, a perfect rehearsed non answer, lol.  

 

 

I understand that this post may sound like I'm a Cait apologist, but I'm not.  I just don't think she's a horrible person.  Like Jenny Boylan, I believe Cait has a good heart.  I did think this show was a mistake because of the production company she chose and because I thought if she wanted to "help" then she would donate the profits, but I can't deny that it's started conversations I never thought I would have and helped me become aware of issues I never really considered before.  So maybe it has done something besides fatten Jenner's wallet.  

 

Forgive me if this New York Times article has already been posted - I don't remember seeing it before.  It's about how this particular production company decided they could do a serious show. 

 

With Caitlyn Jenner’s New Show, a Reality Producer Tries to Tame the Antics

 

Some highlights:

 

T

he story of how Bunim/Murray became the producers of Ms. Jenner’s show began about a year ago. Mr. Jenkins said that one of his field producers on “Keeping Up With the Kardashians” called him to say that Ms. Jenner needed to see him immediately. The rumors were true: She was going to transition...

 

...Ms. Jenner has a lot of editorial control, and the producers defer to her choices, almost to a fault. Mr. Jenkins said that Ms. Jenner probably had more control than her ex-wife, Kris Jenner, does with “Keeping Up With the Kardashians.” (Kris Jenner does not have a producing credit on “I Am Cait.”)

“With ‘Keeping Up,’ if a cast member says, ‘No, I don’t want to shoot that,’ I say, ‘Well you need to shoot that, you need to share that, that’s what you signed up for, this is a reality show, that’s your job,’ ” Mr. Jenkins said. “With Caitlyn? No, she’s in the driver’s seat. I do not push back on things like that. It’s such a sensitive subject and I feel Caitlyn has an inner compass of what’s right and what’s wrong and we’re following her lead sincerely.”

 

I didn't realize that Cait went to them and not the other way around.  Kris taught her well, not that that's a good thing. 

[princelina]

I don't think it's a "white male privilege" thing going on so much as an "elitist celebrity" thing.  In the 70s she was an actual celebrity with the Olympics and all, and has lived that life for the past 40 years.  Not much has changed for her, even though those of us watching would now classify her as a D-list crappy realty show channel celeb.

 

As far as her other attitude, I am realizing that she reminds me of my mom.  My brother has been a raging alcoholic for about 25 years, and if you look up "codependent enabler" in the dictionary, that lady's picture you will see is of my mom.  She has done everything she can think of to "save him", read countless books and websites and consulted with people in the rehab biz.  And can even talk like a person who knows what she is talking about.  But if you suggest that a few Al-Anon meetings would behoove her, she is outraged - she knows everything about alcoholism!  She doesn't need to listen to them - everyone should be listening to her!  How dare you! She thinks jail may be the only recourse, and next time she is leaving him there!  (And next day she's running off to bail him out of jail, or lecture his wife who kicked him out and get her to take him back, etc.)  I've said it before and don't mean to repeat myself but this is in a different context - I think all of Cait's prep was academic, and she's trying to lead with what she "knows."  Experiences don't always match up with "book-learnin" however, but until one can get rid of the know-it-all, "I'm the leader" mentality, not a lot will be learned.

[CousinAmy]

From E!'s recap of the Matt Lauer interview:

 

 "I think about my life and where I'm at in my life right now and what a tremendous experience this. Hardly nobody gets to live two genders in their lives. Everybody wonders, 'Oh, what's it like to be coming from the other side? You know, their thinking, the way they act, everything?' And here I have the opportunity to do that. And to be honest with you, everything's so new and fun. From that standpoint, it's been great," she said."

 

Everything's so new and fun. 

[Artsda]

 

I didn't realize that Cait went to them and not the other way around.

Yeah and with Brandon's comments, he's attacking the Production choice (that had him on KUWTK for years) when it was Cait's decision to go to  the "family" crew for this and asked them.

[Cosmocrush]

Yeah and with Brandon's comments, he's attacking the Production choice (that had him on KUWTK for years) when it was Cait's decision to go to  the "family" crew for this and asked them.

I don't know what this means.  Are you saying Brandon is upset Caitlyn chose this production company (which I think was the objection of the four older kids, including Brandon according to VF)? 

[WentMissing]

Caitlyn's interview with Ellen is very interesting because it essentially reveals that if she had been born female in the first place, she would have grown into a woman that was against marriage equality. This is a truly interesting thing to see.

 

that she mentions being old -fashioned leads me to think that she would be very very hesitant to label herself anything other than straight. But, who knows? Her thinking may evolve as her own circumstances change.

Considering she spent 60 plus years as a man in a hetero relationship, it's not surprising that she doesn't see herself as gay; but since it appears that she is still just interested in women, that's exactly what she is. I'm willing to cut her a little slack because this all still must be hard to reconcile but as it's been mentioned already, she has to understand the weight her words have and speak accordingly in public.

[Artsda]

I don't know what this means.  Are you saying Brandon is upset Caitlyn chose this production company (which I think was the objection of the four older kids, including Brandon according to VF)? 

Brandon publicly attacked the production company, that paid him for 3+ years. When it was Cait who picked, reached out and chose them. Instead of publicly bashing production like they were beneath him or Cait. He should have had words about/to Cait and not attacked them at all.

 

Caitlyn Jenner Confronts Kris About Why She Wasn't Invited to Kylie Jenner's Graduation

 

On one hand Cait's going to complain and say that she and Kris haven't spoken in months and months and a year. Then on the other get mad when Kris doesn't invite over to her house?

Edited September 10, 2015 by Artsda

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

I only saw a sliver of the Matt Lauer interview while I was getting ready for work - I heard Caitlin talking about how terribly upset she used to be before she transitioned when there would be "girls nights out" because she felt left out. It was very strange to me - almost adolescent-ish. I didn't think adults thought much about that kind of stuff - maybe I'm wrong. 

[iwasish]

Brandon publicly attacked the production company, that paid him for 3+ years. When it was Cait who picked, reached out and chose them. Instead of publicly bashing production like they were beneath him or Cait. He should have had words about/to Cait and not attacked them at all.

 

Caitlyn Jenner Confronts Kris About Why She Wasn't Invited to Kylie Jenner's Graduation

 

On one hand Cait's going to complain and say that she and Kris haven't spoken in months and months and a year. Then on the other get mad when Kris doesn't invite over to her house?

Interesting that Kris says "one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you" when it was Caitlyn who reached out to her.

 

For someone who alleges she isn't interested in dating right now, its odd that so much of every episode this show is chatter about this subject.

[millennium]

Caitlyn's interview with Ellen is very interesting because it essentially reveals that if she had been born female in the first place, she would have grown into a woman that was against marriage equality. This is a truly interesting thing to see.

 

Considering she spent 60 plus years as a man in a hetero relationship, it's not surprising that she doesn't see herself as gay; but since it appears that she is still just interested in women, that's exactly what she is. I'm willing to cut her a little slack because this all still must be hard to reconcile but as it's been mentioned already, she has to understand the weight her words have and speak accordingly in public.

 

There's no skirting the truth: if you consider yourself a woman, and you are attracted to women, you're a gay woman.    And if you're a gay woman and you go on national TV with America's best-known gay woman, who's married to another gay woman, and suggest you're against gay marriage ... well, I don't know what you are.

[lizzy07]

 

There's no skirting the truth: if you consider yourself a woman, and you are attracted to women, you're a gay woman.    And if you're a gay woman and you go on national TV with America's best-known gay woman, who's married to another gay woman, and suggest you're against gay marriage ... well, I don't know what you are.

 

I'd say then that person is kinda mean. I don't think she was deliberately being mean -- but, yeah, it came off as mean.

[freeradical]

Yeah and with Brandon's comments, he's attacking the Production choice (that had him on KUWTK for years) when it was Cait's decision to go to the "family" crew for this and asked them.

Brandon and Brody are hypocrites. They were on a reality show about just THEM in 2005 "Prince's of Malibu" two years before KUWTK even happened and Brody was on The Hill's! The freaking Hill's with freaking Spencer Pratt! Poor Brandon and Brody feel overexposed now? This is Cait's story.

[millennium]

"Here's your hero."

 

Maybe America is starting to emerge from its own "pink mist."

 

 

 

Caitlyn Jenner vs. “the Community”

 

Until this week, Caitlyn Jenner had enjoyed a relatively warm reception by the transgender and larger LGBTQ community. While many queer viewers raised an eyebrow at her affiliation with the Republican Party—a commitment she readily shared with Diane Sawyer back in April—and a chorus of trans advocates rightly cautioned that Jenner’s privileged position as a wealthy celebrity made her a poor representative of the larger trans experience, most of the community welcomed having such a high-profile and potentially influential figure join the fold.

 

That welcome is wearing thin this week in the wake of comments that demonstrate just how sharply Jenner’s politics differ from those of the LGBTQ mainstream. In an interview with Ellen DeGeneres that aired on Tuesday, Jenner revealed a general discomfort with same-sex marriage, admitting that because she is “a traditionalist,” she had only recently come to accept marriage equality and then only under the rather tepid logic that “I don’t ever want to stand in front of anybody’s happiness.” She then expressed resignation over use of the term marriage: “If that word—marriage—is really, really that important to you, I can go with it.” DeGeneres (no doubt voicing the thoughts of most queer viewers) expressed confusion at how Jenner, who for the last few months has been engaged in an intense campaign for public acceptance of her trans identity, could be so hesitant regarding the romantic dignity of gay, lesbian, and bisexual individuals.

 

The confusion continued on Wednesday in a golf game/interview with the Today Show’s Matt Lauer, in which Jenner argued that, contrary to the protestations of practically everyone, a Halloween costume meant to resemble her Vanity Fair cover photo was not offensive. “I'm in on the joke. I don't think it's offensive at all,” Jenner said when Lauer asked about the costume. “I know the [trans] community does, and [the company has] gotten a lot of criticism for doing it. I think it's great.” The theme of Jenner being somehow separate from “the community” cropped up throughout the conversation. When questioned about criticisms of her privilege relative to most trans folks, Jenner took on a defensive tone: “I’ve worked very hard in my life, I have no excuses about my life and what I’ve done with my life. Yes, I’ve worked hard and been able to put a few bucks away. Good for me, that’s the American dream. OK?” To be fair, Jenner does add that she’s “devastated to see people dying over this issue.” But then calling it an “issue” for other “people” seems weirdly impersonal for a person who’s just transitioned herself.

 

Even more striking was Jenner’s reaction to Lauer when the journalist expressed nervousness about saying something offensive during the interview. “To be honest with you I’m the easiest on people,” Jenner assured Lauer. “Now, ‘the community’—you know, GLAAD, all the people in the community—are like ‘Oh my god, you have to get the pronouns right; you have to do this, you have to do that.’ I’m much more tolerant than that. I mean, I understand that it’s difficult for people to understand this.”

 

While it’s true that a certain strain of queer activism can occasionally become overzealous on issues of language and what counts as offensive, Jenner’s point here is not a focused critique of that sort of thing. Rather, it and the rest of these comments represent a clear attempt to distance herself from the mainstream LGBTQ family. Apparently, Jenner does not identify with the poltics of “the community,” and she wants to ensure that outsiders like Lauer know that she’s one of the good ones who won’t correct your pronoun mistake or call out your tacky Halloween costume. Moreover, as a conservative Christian, she’s not even so sure about this gay marriage thing! It took a few months, but I think we’ve reached the point—perhaps inevitable for a person of her station—where Caitlyn Jenner has become the Respectable Trans Person.

 

Of course, respectability posturing is nothing new for queer people. Since the beginning of the civil rights movement for gays, lesbians, and bisexuals, there have been individuals who attempted to gain straight society’s approval by distancing themselves from—or stepping over the bodies of—more “radical” elements of the community. (These folks write op-eds against drag queens and go-go boys each Pride parade season like clockwork.) Respectability politics in the trans community, at least on the public stage, is a newer phenomenon, but it appears that Jenner is positioning herself to lead the way. How you feel about this shift in tone will obviously depend on your own politics, and it’s always good to remind ourselves that queer folks are a diverse group ideologically, even if certain of those ideological positions seem completely contrary to queer self-interest. I have a feeling, though, that many queer people will respond as gay writer and performer Justin Sayre did upon hearing the news of Jenner’s marriage equality musings. On Facebook, Sayre wrote flatly: “Here’s your hero.”

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/09/09/caitlyn_jenner_gay_marriage_and_the_halloween_costume_respectable_trans.html

Edited September 11, 2015 by millennium

[millennium]

Is the summer of love over?

 

 

 

Caitlyn Jenner is the spokesperson the LGBT community has, but is she the one they want?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style-blog/wp/2015/09/09/caitlyn-jenner-is-the-spokesperson-the-lgbt-community-has-but-is-she-the-one-they-want/ 

Edited September 11, 2015 by millennium

[Artsda]

 

Even more striking was Jenner’s reaction to Lauer when the journalist expressed nervousness about saying something offensive during the interview. “To be honest with you I’m the easiest on people,” Jenner assured Lauer. “Now, ‘the community’—you know, GLAAD, all the people in the community—are like ‘Oh my god, you have to get the pronouns right; you have to do this, you have to do that.’ I’m much more tolerant than that. I mean, I understand that it’s difficult for people to understand this.”

From a standpoint from the people in Cait's life I think this is a good thing and really easy going with the transition. That she's not correcting them and taking anything offensive. That she's being so tolerant like letting the kids/grandkids still call her dad/granddad and letting her mom still call her Bruce.

 

From GLAAD/Community standpoint, ouch. Cait sounds like she segregates herself from the community and isn't a team player.

[millennium]

It's a complicated bag of reactions, it sure is.

 

On one level I understand how GLAAD being self-appointed arbiters can get under people's skin. It's happened here on this forum, and no doubt happens outside in the Transgender world at large too. But it's really rich someone like Caitlyn Jenner trying to leverage an association with these people but also toss bricks at them at the same time. 

 

IMHO, she went somewhat beyond trying to leverage an association with GLAAD.   She brought in Jennifer Boylan as her mentor and guide, not once but throughout the series, even including Boylan's wife in the last episode.

 

In 2013, Boylan was chosen as the first openly transgender co-chair of GLAAD's National Board of Directors.   She remains in that position today.

 

Boylan staked her reputation on Jenner.  She went so far as to write that cloying introduction to People Magazine's special Caitlyn Jenner edition book.  She published an article on her own website praising Jenner and rationalizing her missteps.   She represented GLAAD on Jenner's show.

 

And now that the show is completed, the first chance Jenner gets, she throws them to the wolves, implying that GLAAD (and Boylan by extension) is "intolerant."

Edited September 11, 2015 by millennium

[HumblePi]

Caitlyn was dyslexic as a child and this caused her to have difficulties reading and expressing herself in school. Her grades were so bad that she failed the second grade. She became interested in running and athletics in the fifth grade. By the time she started high school Jenner's family had moved to Newtown, Connecticut. At Newtown High Jenner was on the basketball, football, and track teams. She was also a three-time water skiing champion in the Eastern States competition, and was New York's all-state pole vault and high-jump champion. Her all-around talent, however, was viewed as a liability by some, she was not a team player. "Teams could only let you down. In individual sports, it was just me."

 

I only give this background information to illustrate the fact that she's always had difficulty expressing herself and this remains the case today. Candis Cayne is the exact opposite. She iis extremely observant, articulate and intelligent. I believe Caitlyn keeps Candis close by as a spokesperson for her because she just doesn't have the capability to express herself in an insightful and intuitive way. I'm sure Caitlyn knows her boundaries very well when it comes to public speaking, verbalization and communicating. One of the only reasons she was able to earn money doing motivational speaking is because all the material she used at her speaking engagements had all been prepared and rehearsed by her well in advance. Motivational speaking isn't an occupation, it's a way to communicate your passion about a subject you're an expert on. One line in particular from one of her speeches illustrates my point. "Pressure is part of the game. We have to accept it. Pressure makes me think, The higher we raise the bar in out arena, the more commitment we have to give." This is dictated solely on the basis of her past athletic achievements

 

Caitlyn Jenner has not earned her fame and notoriety through her intelligence. I stop short of saying she's just shy of being only of average intelligence. The truth is that Caitlyn Jenner is not a deep thinker to say the least. She hasn't thought out all the avenues which transitioning would eventually lead her and right now she seems to be enjoying her moment only and not really prepared for the days to come when the world just doesn't care about her big transition anymore.

 

[Dorne2.0]

Caitlyn Jenner has not earned her fame and notoriety through her intelligence. I stop short of saying she's just shy of being only of average intelligence. The truth is that Caitlyn Jenner is not a deep thinker to say the least. She hasn't thought out all the avenues which transitioning would eventually lead her and right now she seems to be enjoying her moment only and not really prepared for the days to come when the world just doesn't care about her big transition anymore.

 

I am worried about Cait. She cannot afford to alienate the GBLT community, I hope her family and friends still support her after the cameras go, one day she won't be such a novelty, as you said. I guess she will always have "paid friends", but her conservative friends will hardly have her back, and I really hope she doesn't end up abandoned and driven to suicide or to detransition to try get back her male privilege. That would be both a disaster to the transgender representation and would give bigots more material to oppose transition. Many transgender people lose their family and friends, their jobs and I think transphobia is the reason for many of the suicides. I mean you want this your whole life, but when you get it, many people lose everything else. Many of the people who detransitioned (I read that article and even a guy's website) seem to depressed at the loss of their family, job and community support, some seemed like "ex-gays" who had religious reasons, and a few were wrongly diagnosed and given the surgery. And their seeming agenda of trying to stop other people from transitioning doesn't sit right with me, many are happy with it, I believe it's the transphobia that makes their life hard even after the surgery. And that's why the support of the GLBT community and GLAAD is more important to her than she thinks. I think Boylan is so kind to Caitlyn because she realizes the media will go away someday, and many people may be only as tolerant as the cameras force them to be.

 

Edit: removing wrong information about Kylie's graduation.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Dorne2.0

[freeradical]

"Here's your hero."

Maybe America is starting to emerge from its own "pink mist."

Caitlyn has been clear since the Diane Sawyer interview that she is a Republican and a Christian and it was obvious that she was offended/confused by the idea that she would be considered gay. She said "I'm not gay Diane! I've always been with women!" She knows she is a transgender woman so she knows there is nothing wrong with her gender identity. She doesn't seem to have given any thought to her sexual preference or anyone else's due to her (so far) outdated beleifs. There have been no surprises about her conservative beliefs being contradictory to the LGBT community. She doesn't seem to know what the LGB part means! Just the T! Politics and ignorance don't make her a bad person, but I think they do prevent her from being any kind of leader or role model for the LGBT community. My perception is the cisgender community has respect and admiration for her in spite of her not being "hip" to modern thinking, although it is frustrating for sure. I don't blame the transgender community for saying WTF !? She is a walking contradiction. I love her anyway. Edited September 11, 2015 by freeradical

[jumper sage]

I get the impression that Caityn wants to continue to be treated with all the perks that come with being a white man in America.

I have been watching this whole thing and trying to digest it.  Your statement strikes me as so true.  As a very left leaning "freedom for all" person, I have not commented on the topic as I am confused on statements by Caitlyn.  I have never understood the Log Cabin Republicans but I feel I am getting insight to this through the voice of Cait.  Not saying I agree as I have always thought that they valued money over personal freedom.  Just looking at the average gay female couple vs. the average gay male couple financially speaks to the reason that the majority of the Log Cabin Republicans are male.

[millennium]

The second half of the Matt Lauer interview was a bore.   When all is and done, Jenner is not a very interesting person.

 

I found it a bit repugnant the way she talked about her breasts like they're toys or accessories.   And Caitlyn, get a better bra.   Some things are best left to the imagination when you're 65.

[Kromm]

I found it a bit repugnant the way she talked about her breasts like they're toys or accessories.   

Think about it. She got those gigantic ones instead of normal sized ones. Of course they're toys.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Kromm

[millennium]

The discussion had a "guys' locker room" quality to it and seemed overtly sexist because under no other circumstances would Matt Lauer have asked a female golfer about the impact of her breasts on her game.    I'm surprised Jenner didn't invite Lauer to touch them.   I remember reading early on that she once flashed her own son with them.

Edited September 12, 2015 by millennium

[HumblePi]

I am worried about Cait. She cannot afford to alienate the GBLT community, I hope her family and friends still support her after the cameras go, one day she won't be such a novelty, as you said. I guess she will always have "paid friends", but her conservative friends will hardly have her back, and I really hope she doesn't end up abandoned and driven to suicide or to detransition to try get back her male privilege. That would be both a disaster to the transgender representation and would give bigots more material to oppose transition. Many transgender people lose their family and friends, their jobs and I think transphobia is the reason for many of the suicides. I mean you want this your whole life, but when you get it, many people lose everything else. Many of the people who detransitioned (I read that article and even a guy's website) seem to depressed at the loss of their family, job and community support, some seemed like "ex-gays" who had religious reasons, and a few were wrongly diagnosed and given the surgery. And their seeming agenda of trying to stop other people from transitioning doesn't sit right with me, many are happy with it, I believe it's the transphobia that makes their life hard even after the surgery. And that's why the support of the GLBT community and GLAAD is more important to her than she thinks. I think Boylan is so kind to Caitlyn because she realizes the media will go away someday, and many people may be only as tolerant as the cameras force them to be.

 

Edit: removing wrong information about Kylie's graduation.

"I mean you want this your whole life, but when you get it, many people lose everything else"

Caitlyn Jenner took the giant leap into the life she's always wanted. The ultimate question is what this lifelong dream will cost her in the end.  It's very possible that when the cameras leave her home, and the paparazzi no longer finds her a hot news item, that family and friends may withdraw from her entirely. It could be that the only people left alongside her are essentially strangers and new acquaintances that only have gender transitioning in common with her.

 

As Dorne2.0 has already mentioned, if this happened, it could be a very perilous time for Caitlyn. The suicide rate is high among transgenders and the fact that for forty years, Caitlyn Jenner has been accustomed to being welcomed to attend any party, any benefit, any awards show that she chose to. She was adored by the public, loved as a parent, highly venerated as an athlete and respected by the public. Essentially, for more than 40 years, she has had the world at her fingertips. This is a person that has met Kings and Presidents and has rubbed shoulders with the wealthiest and most influential people in the world. Dealing with instant rejection by many has to be more difficult for Caitlyn than it might possibly be for most transgenders.

 

Just a side-note.  Bruce Jenner is forever gone to the world in Wikipedia. As Caitlyn Jenner celebrates a re-birth and becomes an entirely new person, she must also deal with the death of the person she once was. There has to be some remorse associated with that.

 

Edited September 12, 2015 by HumblePi

[freeradical]

Think about it. She got those gigantic ones instead of normal sized ones. Of course they're toys.

Lol! My implants are proportionate to my small frame but they are still toys! She did go big but she has broad shoulders and is 6 foot 9 in heels :-)

[Taylorh2]

Lol! My implants are proportionate to my small frame but they are still toys! She did go big but she has broad shoulders and is 6 foot 9 in heels :-)

 

Maybe Caitlyn Jenner can be on the next "My Giant Life"   lol

[iwasish]

Think about it. She got those gigantic ones instead of normal sized ones. Of course they're toys.

I think its sad that she's jumped right into Kardashian Kountry with the big knockers and the plumped up lips (they get bigger every time I see her), will she start padding her ass next?

 

I guess in Kylie's mind she's now justified in any enhancements she wants to do to mask her "insecurities" since her father is doing the same thing. I wonder how long before Kendall falls victim to the pressure. I've seen a couple of pics of her in the past that made me wonder if she hadn't a tiny bit of fluff added to hers also.

"I mean you want this your whole life, but when you get it, many people lose everything else"

Caitlyn Jenner took the giant leap into the life she's always wanted. The ultimate question is what this lifelong dream will cost her in the end.  It's very possible that when the cameras leave her home, and the paparazzi no longer finds her a hot news item, that family and friends may withdraw from her entirely. It could be that the only people left alongside her are essentially strangers and new acquaintances that only have gender transitioning in common with her.

 

As Dorne2.0 has already mentioned, if this happened, it could be a very perilous time for Caitlyn. The suicide rate is high among transgenders and the fact that for forty years, Caitlyn Jenner has been accustomed to being welcomed to attend any party, any benefit, any awards show that she chose to. She was adored by the public, loved as a parent, highly venerated as an athlete and respected by the public. Essentially, for more than 40 years, she has had the world at her fingertips. This is a person that has met Kings and Presidents and has rubbed shoulders with the wealthiest and most influential people in the world. Dealing with instant rejection by many has to be more difficult for Caitlyn than it might possibly be for most transgenders.

 

Just a side-note.  Bruce Jenner is forever gone to the world in Wikipedia. As Caitlyn Jenner celebrates a re-birth and becomes an entirely new person, she must also deal with the death of the person she once was. There has to be some remorse associated with that.

Kim mentioned something to Cait about having her fame but losing her family, at the time I thought Kim was wrong because I didn't really think Cait was in it for fame, but I'm having serious second thoughts about that. It does seem to me that she's certainly enjoying the spot light and the attention. Yeah she tosses a line or two into the interviews about the problems and needs of "the community" but  the rest is all me, me, me.

 

I really can see her in a few years sitting out poolside with that beautiful view, carefully made up and styled... but all alone.