Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

[caracas1914]

The one thing I loved was finally addressing Chewbacca separate from Han as the sexy beast he is. Maz referring to him as her boyfriend (facetiously?) and quipping " I like that Wookie".

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[VCRTracking]

The only reason people, accept it, in my view, is because they saw the 'redemption' before they saw most of the crimes. Does saving Luke make up for killing a bunch of Rebels and Obi Wan? I still say no, personally. Yet he gets a place alongside Obi Wan and Yoga in glowing ghost heaven? Whatever.

 

 

According to the 'Making of Return of the Jedi' book it was producer Howard Kazanjian's idea:

 

Watching Shaw as Vader gave Kazanjian an idea. “George was terrific and would sometimes listen to suggestions,” he would say. “So I said, ‘When Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi are in that ghost effect at the end of the picture, why don’t we have Darth Vader there?’ The next day he said, ‘Let’s do it,’ and I felt good, because I was contributing something to the film that George liked and accepted.” (Though perhaps forgotten, it had been Lucas’s original idea, in an early outline, to bring back Vader as Anakin in the end.)

 

 

but then later:

 

Shaw returned on Tuesday, having been recalled for the pickup shot against black velvet, which Lucas supervised; the unmasked Vader would now appear as a “ghost” along with Yoda and Ben at the end. Ironically, Kazanjian had changed his mind about this being such a good idea. “I’d started thinking about it and I said to George, ‘Why? This guy—he’s like Hitler. He’s killed. He’s done all of these terrible things and now we’re saying he’s equal with Yoda and Obi-Wan, as if he’s gone to heaven or whatever.’ And George pointed at me, he was real close, and he says, ‘Isn’t that what your religion is all about?’ And, boy, that was like being slapped on the side of the face, because, yes, it is what my religion is all about, and obviously his, but I hadn’t thought it through.”

“I decided that the scene would give more closure to Luke’s relationship with his father,” Lucas would say. “When Vader joins the Force he is able to retain his original identity because of Obi-Wan and the Jedi Order, because they’ve learned how to do it.”

 

 

[Emily Thrace]

I'm at the point where I've accepted a passing resemblance to Ford, especially images of Adam Driver outside of the film where he isn't so clean cut, but I haven't been able to reconcile the Skywalker side, which is unfortunate, since they're the core family. Even if Mark and Carrie look nothing like Hayden and Natalie, it was like "Floppy blond haired/blue eyed boy: Check. Petite brunette with brown eyes and fancy hairdo: Check." I've come to realize that the only person who can conceivably play a relative of Adam Driver without me scratching my head is Ezra Miller.

 

Actually I think if Kylo looks like anyone its Amidala. If you compare to movies where Nataile Portman's hair is a lot less highlighted than prequels the two actors could pass as related (she looks more like him than any of his siblings in that other movie I saw him in actually). In terms of hair and eye color Adam Driver isn't a bad match for Eddie Fisher (Carries Fishers father) either. In any case  its not at all improbable for Kylo to look the way he does and still be Han and Lea kid, If anything it indicates Han and Leia's background is more diverse than just white since that kind of variation is more common in people with mixed heritage. I do think some highlights and blue contacts might have helped but that was probably about wanting the character to appear "dark" as much as anything. 

[VCRTracking]

Nice article on the two editors of The Force Awakens, Maryann Brandon and Mary Jo Markey with some interesting tidbits:

 

For starters, we discussed the scene during which Kylo Ren talks to what’s left of the Vader mask.

“That originally came much earlier in the film,” explains Markey. “It was scripted to happen after Poe and Finn escape from the Star Destroyer, and Kylo Ren would be berate himself for having seen that Finn was a traitor on the battlefield and not have done anything about it. But we realized the moment was wasted there. It wasn’t a big enough event and and it came too early in the film."

 

“We moved it to later in the film and made it about his fear about his father’s coming to the planet and his feelings of being pulled toward the light. It had a greater resonance there and greater importance for Kylo Ren’s character.”

 

 

Another scene that involved some tinkering with the filmmakers was the introduction of Leia. “At one point, we introduced Princess Leia very early in the film, but [it was decided] we’d see her first through Han’s eyes,” Brandon said. “It makes the audience hungry to see her and you are as scared for Han as he is. ... I think it also made her character stronger.”

“It also introduced her with such affection; there’s clearly so much feeling between the two of them. It made her introduction more personal,” added Markey.

 

I agree with both those choices. Seeing Ren talking to Vader at that point would have made him a little too sympathetic too soon. I also love Leia's introduction in the finished movie.

Edited January 6, 2016 by VCRTracking

[absnow54]

I'm glad they pushed Kylo Ren removing his mask to later in the film, but I agree with those who wanted the reveal during the Han confrontation. I think the interrogation scene with Rey would have still been effective with the mask on, unless that was the creepy dynamic they intended on.

 

Having read the novelization which includes Leia's early scenes (I believe she actually opens the book) I'm glad they cut them and gave us the film introduction they did. Although, the scenes did explain the resistance a bit better and their relationship with the New Republic.

[Zuleikha]

I think the interrogation scene with Rey would have still been effective with the mask on, unless that was the creepy dynamic they intended on.

I see the argument for the reveal happening at the end on the bridge, but I think the film editors made the right choice with it happening earlier. I think Adam Driver needed to be visible during that scene for the layers of his acting to come through. We needed to see his nonchalance when he was rifling through Rey's mind, the hurt son in the "he would have disappointed you" line, and then the fear when Rey fought back. That all made it at least a bit believable when he gave his final speech to Han as well as made Leia's hope believable. I knew exactly what was going to happen as soon as the scene started, but there was still a part of me holding onto the hope that maaaybe, maybe it wouldn't. I'm pretty sure if Kylo Ren had been masked the whole way through, I wouldn't have had any doubts. There just wasn't enough time to connect to him as a human figure.

 

I also think they did want the creepy one-sided dynamic with Rey. 

 

I loved the moment when we saw Leia, so I'm glad they delayed her introduction, too. It gave her arrival a power I don't think it otherwise would have had, and I think also let Finn/Rey stand on their own as the main characters. But I do wish they'd figured out how to get some of the political exposition in there.

[CofCinci]

Phasma turning the shields off so easily: she's a rebel spy. It's the only way she'll be interesting in the next film.

Edited January 7, 2016 by CofCinci

[Jediknight]

Phasma turning the shields off so easily: she's a rebel spy. It's the only way she'll be interesting in the next film.

She's Finn's sister, and that's why she wanted him in her company and did what he said.  She couldn't bring herself to shoot her own brother.  Everybody wonders if it's Ren that's going to be redeemed, it's going to be Phasma.

[VCRTracking]

There's a lot of articles right now about the movie but this might be one of my favorites:

 

Off the Clock: Space Opera Millennials and Their Grand Narratives

[AshleyN]

Just seen it for the second time tonight. Possibly more enjoyable, because I could anticipate all the great moments and really enjoy them. The bit where Luke's lightsaber flies into Rey's hand as the Luke Theme plays brought a lump to my throat.

 

Yeah, that moment was amazing, that was the "Hell Yeah" moment of the movie, and really the biggest one in the series since Lando and Wedge blew up the Death Star.  It was also the most emotional moment of the movie for me.  Yeah, even above Han's death, that moment just makes you feel great, and makes you want to shed a tear because of it's awesomeness and what it means in the Star Wars universe.

 

The version of Force Theme that was played was lifted directly from Burning Homestead.  It was used for Luke finding Owen and Beru's bodies and making the decision to embrace his destiny and become a Jedi.  And Rey using the Force to the lightsaber she didn't want to touch, was her embracing her destiny to become a Jedi.  It's just perfect.

Yeah, I have to agree with both of you. I saw the movie again the other day, and this was really such a MOMENT. I mean, it would have been powerful on its own, given Rey's arc, Ridley's performance, and of course that incredible Williams music, but when you tie it into a larger context it was just...goosebumps, all over.

 

I'd also agree that I liked it even more the second time, I think at least partly because I wasn't half-distracted wondering when Luke was going to show up. But also because knowing what happens, and relieved of the weight of expectation, I think I was better able to just sit back and appreciate how well-executed everything is. No, it's not reinventing the wheel*, but it's superbly crafted popcorn entertainment, which I think is probably more difficult to do than many of the film's detractors would admit.

 

*And as I said before, I am still hoping the Rian Johnson is able to get a little more ambitious with the next one, a la Empire Strikes Back.

 

I've also come to really appreciate what they did with Kylo Ren. It's really risky to deliberately undermine your new big villain the way that they did, with the temper tantrums and jokey reaction shots, since you take the chance that the audience won't be able to take him seriously as a threat. But I think they did a really excellent job in showing how his more whiney, pathetic, or even laughable elements don't negate how very dangerous he is, and in fact may even make him more dangerous. As has been pointed out here, there definitely seems to be a resemblance with a sort of modern-day mass shooter that makes him feel very relevant to our current time and place.

Edited January 8, 2016 by AshleyN

[JessePinkman]

She's Finn's sister, and that's why she wanted him in her company and did what he said.  She couldn't bring herself to shoot her own brother.  Everybody wonders if it's Ren that's going to be redeemed, it's going to be Phasma.

 

Speaking of crazy theories, I'm just gonna say it: Snoke is both a woman and Rey's mother. Andy Serkis can play anything!

[DollEyes]

 

I just can't get behind Supreme Leader Snoke as a name.

 

I'm just going to call him Darth Gollum.

 

Well, Snoke & Gollum are/were played by Andy Serkis, hence Snoke's more Gollum-like qualities. It's a wonder Snoke didn't say "My precioussssss" at least once.

 

 

 

(at least one popular theory going around is that Kylo is actually a mole for the Light Side and only killed his father to maintain his cover).

 

I'm sure Leia, Chewie, Luke, 3PO, Lando, Rey and Finn would be completely cool with that.

 

  Not to mention Obi-Wan, Anakin, Poe, Admiral Ackbar, the rest of the Resistance and every Ewok on Endor.

Edited January 7, 2016 by DollEyes

[benteen]

Well, Snoke & Gollum are/were played by Andy Serkis, hence Snoke's more Gollum-like qualities. It's a wonder Snoke didn't say "My precioussssss" at least once.

 

 

 

 

  Not to mention Obi-Wan, Anakin, Poe, Admiral Ackbar, the rest of the Resistance and every Ewok on Endor.

 

Heheh.  Yeah, worst plan ever!

 

I have heard the theory though that Kylo is "finishing what Anakin started" by trying to destroy the Death Star and is basically doing it by the most extreme way possible.  Which would lead him to his current drowning in the dark side.  We know batshit crazy does run in the Skywalker gene pool.

Edited January 7, 2016 by benteen

[Jediknight]

But I think they did a really excellent job in showing how his more whiney, pathetic, or even laughable elements don't negate how very dangerous he is, and in fact may even make him more dangerous. As has been pointed out here, there definitely seems to be a resemblance with a sort of modern-day mass shooter that makes him feel very relevant to our current time and place.

Yeah, Kylo is a sociopath who idolized an icon of evil, a mass murderer, and killed his own father.  As strange as it seems, he might have less regard for life than any of the Sith we've met.

 

And I hope they don't redeem him.  It's a good balance to how Rey and Finn both grew up in environments that could have turned them into what Kylo is, but they didn't grow up that way.  They won't give in to darkness, they have compassion, they look up to heroes.  It was obvious that Finn had respect for Han, just for being a general in the Rebellion.  They had regard for other people's lives.

 Not to mention Obi-Wan, Anakin, Poe, Admiral Ackbar, the rest of the Resistance and every Ewok on Endor.

I was just focusing on the 2 new characters, and characters that would have been family to Kylo, and loved him unconditionally as he was growing up.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Jediknight

[Dandesun]

I don't know how much I can say about this movie. I don't think I've fully processed a lot of things.

 

I pretty much knew Han was going to die when he was announced to be in the movie. Still a huge fucking bummer. Now I have to separate canon from my own personal head-canon... which is probably why I haven't been able to fully process a lot here.

 

Regarding Kylo and Rey... the one thing I particularly liked about them in their first meeting and their final showdown was the obvious differences in how they gained their power. Kylo gets it through his turmoil and Rey gets it through, for lack of a better word, peace. They struck me as clearer visions of what differentiates a Sith and a Jedi than anything I've seen in the movies before. This was particularly obvious to me when Kylo was pounding on his wounds during his fight... that concept of 'there is no peace, there is passion, through passion I gain strength...' came through very clearly to me. Meanwhile, Rey's strength grew when she cleared her mind, you saw her doing it while he was trying to take what he wanted from her mind and then every time she tried to use her powers afterwards you could see her trying to calm herself... and ultimately, she overcame Kylo during their battle by 'letting go' and allowing the Force to flow through her.

 

In that, it felt like a throwback to Episode IV where Ben's voice encourages Luke to 'let go' as he's flying through the shafts on the Death Star. There were numerous times through the original trilogy where we saw Luke relax and clear himself before being able to use the Force. I just thought it was interesting how they juxtaposed Kylo and Rey and how they handled it.

[Satoris]

I don't know how much I can say about this movie. I don't think I've fully processed a lot of things.

 

I pretty much knew Han was going to die when he was announced to be in the movie. Still a huge fucking bummer. Now I have to separate canon from my own personal head-canon... which is probably why I haven't been able to fully process a lot here.

 

Regarding Kylo and Rey... the one thing I particularly liked about them in their first meeting and their final showdown was the obvious differences in how they gained their power. Kylo gets it through his turmoil and Rey gets it through, for lack of a better word, peace. They struck me as clearer visions of what differentiates a Sith and a Jedi than anything I've seen in the movies before. This was particularly obvious to me when Kylo was pounding on his wounds during his fight... that concept of 'there is no peace, there is passion, through passion I gain strength...' came through very clearly to me. Meanwhile, Rey's strength grew when she cleared her mind, you saw her doing it while he was trying to take what he wanted from her mind and then every time she tried to use her powers afterwards you could see her trying to calm herself... and ultimately, she overcame Kylo during their battle by 'letting go' and allowing the Force to flow through her.

 

In that, it felt like a throwback to Episode IV where Ben's voice encourages Luke to 'let go' as he's flying through the shafts on the Death Star. There were numerous times through the original trilogy where we saw Luke relax and clear himself before being able to use the Force. I just thought it was interesting how they juxtaposed Kylo and Rey and how they handled it.

So THAT's why Kylo kept thumping his wound. I never got that! Thank you. I thought he was like letting built up blood out of his suit or something. It makes total sense that he was actually causing himself pain to fuel his dark side powers. Yes, that scene did a wonderful job showing the dividing line between what a sith and jedi do to follow their individual paths. Also, I really hope they don't redeem Kylo as Han Solo is a boss and didn't deserve to die after everything he's been through. Especially not at the hands of his own son. Incidentally, I wrote a cool Star Wars review, check it out here

[moonb]

I finally saw it yesterday, thoroughly spoiled, of course. I'm not a hardcore Star Wars fan, but I love the OT enough to read fanfic, and have seen the prequels. ( I didn't know who Han Solo was until I was 17, and I'm a year older than A New Hope! Serious fail, there. Indiana Jones ruled in our house, and when I first saw Star Wars as a teenager, I thought, "how could Harrison Ford be so YOUNG?" Heh.)

 

I was actually pleasantly surprised by the fact that while it was similar to A New Hope, it wasn't as obvious as I'd been led to believe. While all the coincidences were contrived just like in the OT, they were contrived in a way I bought - people do have short memories in 30 years, and go down bad paths, and so on. It was good entertainment.

Harrison Ford and Adam Driver were great - I was expecting the scene on the bridge, but Han's yelling "BEN!" in that desperate way got to me (parent-child stories always do). And masked Kylo Ren took me out of the movie a tiny bit, because I'd been told about Emo Kylo Ren's Twitter handle and his helmet looking like a depressed lampshade. So it was difficult to take a villain like that seriously....until he took the mask off and scared the crap out of me with that softspoken voice and complete, unpredictable disregard for anything beyond his own goals. He doesn't even need an excuse or reason for his actions like Anakin Skywalker. Sometimes there is no real reason behind horror. Great job, Adam Driver.

 

I will say, I liked all the new characters a lot, but I'm not that curious right now about their backstories....except for Snoke. Really want to know what's going on there, and why/how Han and Leia know him and what happened in the past.

Edited January 9, 2016 by moonb

[nobodyyoucare]

For those wondering the Sith Code is as follows:

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

 

The Jedi Code is 

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony
There is no death, there is the Force.

[Morrigan2575]

Was that in a game? I know that Sith one and reading it I'm having flashbacks to Knights of the Old Republic.

[Joe]

The Sith code originated in the first KOTOR. Interestingly, the Jedi code is now canon, but the Sith isn't.

[Bats27]

I see the argument for the reveal happening at the end on the bridge, but I think the film editors made the right choice with it happening earlier. I think Adam Driver needed to be visible during that scene for the layers of his acting to come through. We needed to see his nonchalance when he was rifling through Rey's mind, the hurt son in the "he would have disappointed you" line, and then the fear when Rey fought back. That all made it at least a bit believable when he gave his final speech to Han as well as made Leia's hope believable. I knew exactly what was going to happen as soon as the scene started, but there was still a part of me holding onto the hope that maaaybe, maybe it wouldn't. I'm pretty sure if Kylo Ren had been masked the whole way through, I wouldn't have had any doubts. There just wasn't enough time to connect to him as a human figure.

 

I also think they did want the creepy one-sided dynamic with Rey. 

 

I loved the moment when we saw Leia, so I'm glad they delayed her introduction, too. It gave her arrival a power I don't think it otherwise would have had, and I think also let Finn/Rey stand on their own as the main characters. But I do wish they'd figured out how to get some of the political exposition in there.

 

 

I agree that having Kylo take his mask off in front of Rey was a great idea, for several reasons:

 

-Having him take it off in front of Han for the first time would have been the most cliché/predictable route that they could have gone.

 

-Yes, I do think that there were supposed to be creepy undertones to the scene initially.  When you have a 19/20 year old young woman strapped down to your creepy torture table in your creepy torture room, she looks scared to death and is trying to lean back/turn away to avoid you, you're hovering right next to her face, and THEN you say the line "you know that I can take whatever I want," the subtext is hard to miss.  Heck there was a husband/wife couple sitting right next to me and they got it because one of them, IDK which, whispered under their breath "ewww."  Not to mention mind probes in and of themselves have disturbing undertones (it was creepy when he did it to Poe earlier as well).

 

-It makes the later stuff where she gets the better of him all the more satisfying.

 

-That scene might be my favorite scene in the film, and a lot of it comes down to Ridley/Driver's performances.  It's hard to make a scene where they're not talking for a lot of it and just making intense faces at each other look not goofy, but they pull it off.  And we needed to see their faces for that to work properly.

 

-It tells you so much about his character.  He's a poser.  A talented one, but a poser nonetheless.  He doesn't need the mask, like Vader did, he wears as a tribute and because it's the only time that he feels truly powerful/in-control.  Once it comes off, he becomes much more awkward/less confident, and more still when Rey resists him so well, and that's all on Driver's face/posture as well.  He's just a angry, scared young man who wants so badly to be Vader, is trying to be, but doesn't know how.  Which Rey uses to crush his proverbial Force Balls with one sentence, great stuff.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Bats27

[thequeenani]

Just wanted to say great discussion going on here. It got me to finally make an account. I have never been into Star Wars before this movie and now I am trying to catch up, lol.  I really enjoyed it and plan on seeing it again soon. 

 

I read this today and it cleared so many things up: Star Wars: The Force Awakens: 16 questions the novel answers.  I am going to pick up the novelization soon as well.  So Snoke has been working on Kylo Ren since he was a child and Kylo seems to know who Rey is.  I really can't wait to see how all this develops. 

[ChelseaNH]

I finally managed to take off work so I could see this in an uncrowded theater.  (Which gave me room to move when the talky people sat down behind me.)  The first movie, which I saw in initial release, was a mind-expanding experience.  This was a fun movie, but it really felt like they were trying to serve up all the things people liked so much, just with a new coating of paint.  Also, they moved through the plot awfully quickly.  The whole attack on a major installation got planned in, what, two minutes?

 

Still, it was executed with a lot of skill.  I enjoyed the business about holding hands, and the way Rey and Finn geeked out over their initial escape.  Also, the thing about sanitation engineers is that janitors tend to have access to everywhere.

 

It was great to see the old characters, and the new characters have a lot going for them.  Captain Phasma was a nothing part so far; hopefully that will change.  Han's death was a foregone conclusion, but I think the point there is that killing him isn't going to make Ren feel any less conflicted.  It's also interesting that it was all about killing his father, when his lineage in the Force is through his mother.  Seems like killing her would be a greater step into darkness.  Perhaps they're saving that angle for the sequel.

 

I wouldn't object to seeing it again, but it's probably not something I'll make the effort to do.

[Ravenya003]

There's a lot of articles right now about the movie but this might be one of my favorites:

 

Off the Clock: Space Opera Millennials and Their Grand Narratives

 

This was a great read, and incredibly perceptive at how it compared Kylo's rage at Rey's superior Force-abilities with that of the disgruntled fanboys who are WAY too hung up on a) the film's protagonist being female, and b) the argument that she's a Mary Sue. (Seriously, I thought the MS complaints were an exaggeration, but there are SO MANY guys out there who are ridiculously butthurt about Rey's abilities and importance). As the article says, it was almost like the writers foresaw their reaction and shaped Kylo's characterization as an enraged little shit accordingly. 

 

Which leads me to THIS bit of speculation which I think is fantastic. To paraphrase it's contents, we've all had trouble trying to understand how a young man from a loving family could turn to the Dark Side without some sort of abuse playing a factor in his upbringing (which seems HUGELY unlikely unless the franchise wants to totally destroy Leia/Han as characters). But what if Kylo was raised as the son of immense privilege, informed pretty much from birth that he's super-powerful, Luke's star pupil, the Most Important Person in the room, and the inheritor of the Skywalker legacy - and then have it all disappear when Luke produces a daughter who is more powerful, more Force-sensitive, at least ten years younger than him, and next in line to the Skywalker “rule of primogeniture” (or whatever you want to call it).

 

Essentially, he's had his place usurped by a GIRL. The shame! All it would take is Snoke to start whispering in his ear about how he'll never be second-best if he joins the Dark Side, and I can easily see Kylo jumping on board. 

 

It fits perfectly with Kylo's entitled, whiny attitude, it explains why Luke's lightsaber favoured Rey over him, and it corresponds perfectly with the film's themes of generational legacies, the subversive qualities of the story in making a female its protagonist, and the clues it revealed regarding Rey and Kylo's histories. (Also, it would be bloody hilarious if it turns out Rey is the REASON for Kylo's turn to the Dark Side instead of the person who draws him back to the Light, as the shippers hope). 

[Bats27]

Part of the reason why I was cool with all the OT callbacks was that there seemed to be this theme permeating the film of "acknowledge the past and it's importance, but don't be obsessed with it."

 

-Relics/ruins of the past are all over the film. Once powerful SD's on Jakku now life half buried in the sand, picked over daily for scrap until not much is left.

Pretty much every character and group in the film is defined by the past in one form or another, and that's usually treated like a BAD thing:

-The FO is obsessed with recapturing the "glory days" of the Galactic Empire, to the point that they will slaughter BILLIONS of innocent people using a weapon inspired by one that already failed the GE TWICE. They cannot accept that times have changed.

-Multiple characters are running from their pasts. Finn, Han, Leia, etc. And the idea is that "you need to stop running, and face those demons, if you are ever to move forward." And in Han's case, you could argue that his past consumed him.

-Han and Leia both went back to "what they were good at," after losing their son. And as a result of trying to live in the past, they've never been truly happy since.

-Kylo is obsessed with upholding the "legacy" of his grandfather Darth Vader, and that has twisted him into something ugly and evil.

 

And then there's Rey. She literally and figureatively lives in the past. Her home is a fallen AT-AT, she makes her living by scavenging from fallen SD's. Her planet is littered with the ruins of the past, SD's, X-Wings, etc. And, she's also stuck in the past, allowing herself to live a miserable existence on the vain hope that her family will just magically appear one day to whisk her away. Something that, and Daisy Ridley's performance was brilliant here, her reaction to Maz Kanata's words prove that SHE knows will never happen. But she cannot admit it, so she's willing to turn down a dream job offer from her idol Han Solo just to keep living in this fantasy. And she runs away from her true destiny, which only serves to get her captured and tortured by Kylo. And by the end, she's accepted that her past is just that, her past. And now she's moving forward, and may ultimately be rewarded for it.

 

If anything, TFA is a palate-cleanser to both lure back disenchanted old fans and draw in new fans by giving them something somewhat familiar that they love. And it seems to have succeeded very well at that for the most part. It basically sets things up so that the next two films can go off in their own truly different directions.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Bats27

[Morrigan2575]

The Sith code originated in the first KOTOR. Interestingly, the Jedi code is now canon, but the Sith isn't.

Cool, wasn't going crazy...damn now i want to play it again.

[VCRTracking]

If anything, TFA is a palate-cleanser to both lure back disenchanted old fans and draw in new fans by giving them something somewhat familiar that they love. And it seems to have succeeded very well at that for the most part. It basically sets things up so that the next two films can go off in their own truly different directions.

 

 

 

As JJ Abrams recently said in an interview, they had to "go backwards before going forward".

The moment Poe was brought before Kylo Ren in the first scene and then there's this awkward silence until Poe suddenly "Who talks first? You talk first or I talk first?" There was laughter and also a sense of relief from the audience.

 

Which leads me to THIS bit of speculation which I think is fantastic. To paraphrase it's contents, we've all had trouble trying to understand how a young man from a loving family could turn to the Dark Side without some sort of abuse playing a factor in his upbringing (which seems HUGELY unlikely unless the franchise wants to totally destroy Leia/Han as characters). But what if Kylo was raised as the son of immense privilege, informed pretty much from birth that he's super-powerful, Luke's star pupil, the Most Important Person in the room, and the inheritor of the Skywalker legacy - and then have it all disappear when Luke produces a daughter who is more powerful, more Force-sensitive, at least ten years younger than him, and next in line to the Skywalker “rule of primogeniture” (or whatever you want to call it).

 

I wonder if this is the reason for Max Landis(son of a famous director)' anti-Rey stance? Like maybe he identified more with Kylo Ren and why he felt him being beaten by a "nobody" was preposterous?

Edited January 9, 2016 by VCRTracking

[ChelseaNH]

Are there any indications that Rey is Luke's daughter other than the general "family soap opera" angle?  As bad as Ben would feel about being "usurped" by Luke's daughter, what if she had no special lineage?  Being supplanted by a cousin is one thing, but being surpassed by a nobody?  That's gotta sting.

[SeanC]

Are there any indications that Rey is Luke's daughter other than the general "family soap opera" angle?

It's been pretty much confirmed that she's somebody, hence all the 'recognition' from various people.  And all the stuff regarding the Skywalker lightsaber is highly suggestive -- even to the theme music that kicks in when she finally grabs it.

 

Now, this could all be misdirection.  There's nothing concrete, per se.  But it's definitely there.

[Ronin Jackson]

I only agree partially with J.J. Abrams comments that "they had to go the past to go to the future"... they did to a degree, but not to the degree they did (rehashing the Death Star is where they went too far... it was one too many times in Return of the Jedi). They brought back Han Solo, Chewbacca, Leia and Luke... and several other characters. The started on a desert planet indistinguishable from Tatooine (not sure why they couldn't have just made it Tatooine or had a different type of planet, but I can let it slide since deserts are aesthetically pleasing). All that is enough going into the past. But it is great to hear confirmation that Rian Johnson will be taking it into original territory. When all is said and done, TFA was successful at laying the groundwork for him. Though they did hire another fanboy fan fiction director for the third movie, so hopefully the plan isn't to re-retread Return of the Jedi for the final installment.

[DollEyes]

 

 Though they did hire another fanboy fan fiction director for the third movie, so hopefully the plan isn't to re-retread Return of the Jedi for the final installment.

 

   While I'm glad that there will be original elements in the third film, I wouldn't mind a shout-out or two to ROtJ. Beats going back to the prequels, or the first two of them, anyway. Besides, I'd much rather see Ewoks than Jar Jar Binks again anytime.

 

 

Phasma turning off the rebel shields so easily: she's a rebel spy. It's the only way she'll be interesting in the next film.

 

  I found Phasma to be kind of a snooze. She may look like a badass, but Rey is one.

Edited January 9, 2016 by DollEyes

[benteen]

Colin Trevorrow did a really good job with Jurassic World and I liked his previous film Safety Not Guaranteed.  I think he'll do fine with Episode 9.

[HeySandyStrange]

Personally, I hope we find out Rey is a Kenobi in the next film...and shortly after that we find out Luke is her dad, thus making her a Skywalker too. If only because I'm sadistic and want the collective Reylo fangirls to implode, since they have been bending over backwards to find any reason to make Reylo logical. Give them hope long enough to yank it away, I say. I don't even care if it makes any sense, tbh.

[Danny Franks]

Personally, I hope we find out Rey is a Kenobi in the next film...and shortly after that we find out Luke is her dad, thus making her a Skywalker too. If only because I'm sadistic and want the collective Reylo fangirls to implode, since they have been bending over backwards to find any reason to make Reylo logical. Give them hope long enough to yank it away, I say. I don't even care if it makes any sense, tbh.

 

And then make both Rey and Kylo Ren gay, just to completely crush their dreams (because incest might be as much of a turn on as abuse and non-consensual activity).

 

I found Phasma to be kind of a snooze. She may look like a badass, but Rey is one.

 

 

Phasma is basically Boba Fett. Looks impressive, does nothing, goes out like a chump (I know they've said she'll be back, but the last time we see her in this movie, she's about to be thrown into a trash compacter). Wonder if she'll develop her own obsessive following, with demands of an eventual spinoff movie and countless books and comics?

[ybrik]

I have been surprised how much new things I see each time I see the movie. During the Rey/Ren interrogation scene, Ren shows how much of a weakness his father is to Ren. He is in her mind pulling out info with ease but lets up when Han Solo is brought up. When he says that Han would just disappoint Rey, he has his Ben voice. He stands up basically breaking the connection. He regains his composure and his voice changes back to his Ren voice but it is too late. I think Kylo made two mistakes in the interrogation scene first was taking off the mask and letting Rey see him as a real person with real feelings instead of a masked monster. Then by letting himself get unfocused because of his father, he gave Rey a chance to recover and also see that Ren did have weaknesses.

 

Read the novelization and wish the movie had made it more clear about the map being a map to the Jedi temples but also I wish they used that version of R2 waking up. The novel has Rey letting Leia and the other know that the map was from the Empire's archive and that the FO had the other part. R2 wakes up hearing this because he has the other part as well since he has hacked into the empire's systems before.

 

Speaking of R2, I realized why I liked BB8 so much. He is R2 from the OT. I think the prequels tried making R2 too cool with all his extra gadgets and silly gags. However R2 in the OT and BB8 here worked because despite being droids they had real emotions and because characters.

[HeySandyStrange]

 

And then make both Rey and Kylo Ren gay, just to completely crush their dreams (because incest might be as much of a turn on as abuse and non-consensual activity).

 

According to fangirl logic, only Poe and Finn are allowed to be gay (and Hux has a one sided attraction to Rey-obsessed Kylo). Because heaven forbid Rey actually has the option of a decent guy who would treat her well.

 

In all seriousness, a gay character/couple would awesome in the next movie, but I doubt Disney is that daring. Hell, I  want to see more non-humans in larger supporting roles but I doubt that will happen either.

[HeySandyStrange]

 

I think it's more like heaven forbid that Rey has the option of a guy who is not white.

 

Yeah, true that. A nice guy who isn't whiny, arrogant, gloomy, violent and is not white?! Can't have that, not angsty and melodramatic enough.

[SeanC]

Personally, I hope we find out Rey is a Kenobi in the next film...and shortly after that we find out Luke is her dad, thus making her a Skywalker too. If only because I'm sadistic and want the collective Reylo fangirls to implode, since they have been bending over backwards to find any reason to make Reylo logical. Give them hope long enough to yank it away, I say. I don't even care if it makes any sense, tbh.

I don't think them being cousins would be much of an impediment to shippers.

[HeySandyStrange]

I don't think them being cousins would be much of an impediment to shippers.

Oh I'm sure of that. I just want to see the immediate Tumblr aftermath if its revealed they are related. The implosion would be incredible.

[Ravenya003]

During the Rey/Ren interrogation scene, Ren shows how much of a weakness his father is to Ren. He is in her mind pulling out info with ease but lets up when Han Solo is brought up. When he says that Han would just disappoint Rey, he has his Ben voice. He stands up basically breaking the connection. He regains his composure and his voice changes back to his Ren voice but it is too late. I think Kylo made two mistakes in the interrogation scene first was taking off the mask and letting Rey see him as a real person with real feelings instead of a masked monster.

 

The thing I noticed the second time around was that Rey calls him a "monster in a mask" when she first sees him in the interrogation room - but then at the climactic fight, when he's lost his mask and is just looking at her with his bare face, she STILL calls him "a monster." It's a nice (and no doubt deliberate) parallel: that he denied being a monster the first time around (while in the mask) but can't offer any sort of objection when she says it again post-Han's death (all without the mask). 

 

In fact, perhaps the most bizarre thing about Reylo ship is that its fans are currently treating the possibility of them being cousins as a bigger obstacle than the fact Rey saw him brutally murder Han Solo and label him a monster for it afterwards. (But then I suppose that would involve taking Rey's opinions and feelings into account and not just Kylo's).

 

I think it's more like heaven forbid that Rey has the option of a guy who is not white.

Yeah, true that. A nice guy who isn't whiny, arrogant, gloomy, violent and is not white?! Can't have that, not angsty and melodramatic enough.

 

 

Another fun theory: that Gugu Mbatha-Raw will end up playing Lando's daughter, who would have naturally known Kylo since childhood but NOT be related to him. If the writers decide to go the redemption arc route, what if SHE'S the one who is crucial in reaching out to him? The shippers would technically get what they wanted (Kylo's redemption via the love of a good woman) but it just wouldn't involve the (white) woman they've projected themselves onto.

 

Ah, fandom politics....

Edited January 14, 2016 by Ravenya003

[HeySandyStrange]

 

Another fun theory: that Gugu Mbatha-Raw will end up playing Lando's daughter, who would have naturally known Kylo since childhood but NOT be related to him. If the writers decide to go the redemption arc route, what if SHE'S the one who is crucial in reaching out to him? The shippers would technically get what they wanted (Kylo's redemption via the love of a good woman) but it just wouldn't involve the (white) woman they've projected themselves onto.

 

I was thinking something similar when I read that they are casting new female characters, one a lead, in the next movie. I believe Tatyana Maslany and Gina Rodriguez are also vying for a role. Interestingly enough, all three are in the same age range as Adam Driver so the character(s) they would play would probably be close to Kylo Ren's age, thus opening them up to having had been contemporaries of the former Ben Solo. I can imagine the fangirls are going to be just as livid with a new female character having a past, romantic or otherwise, with Kylo Ren as they will be if it turns out that Rey is related to him. Either way, I will be more tickled then I should be.

 

And Lando having Mbatha-Raw as his badass daughter would be very awesome.

[MrsR]

Saw it again today with a friend who hadn't seen it yet. FUN!

It was so terrific the second time around. I was so anxious the first time. What was going to happen, would it suck? Is Chewie and the the other older timers going to be given short shrift in the story in favor of being set ups for the new drippy characters. Thank god, no.

First Chewie, my favorite character in the stories. He really was given a great role in all of this. I know people want new alien characters but here's an alien character who was really integral to the plot. Little details like him handing Han his coat as they were leaving the facility just made me glow.

Han was even better the second time around. I didn't really pay attention to the fact that it was the character from the first film who didn't believe who believe in all the mumbo jumbo who tell the youngins that it was all true. I forgot he was the disbeliever.

I didn't really notice the beautiful lighting and depth of the entire scene on the cat walk and the way the diminishing sun acted as a count down clock. Gorgeous. And Driver's manipulative performance was more evident.

Nothing was coincidence in this film. The Force was like an other character. Luke might have been absent but the Force was there making sure things went the way they should.

The attack on the facility made so much more sense this time. It wasn't one guy who did the job, it was complete team effort.

Even Carrie felt completely right this time.

I could go on forever noticing new moments.

PS. I got this time that Phasma knew that turning off the shields wasn't enough to do the trick for the resistance. We find out moments later that the pilots can't get through the facility roof. It's in her and the FO's best interest to let the ground crew think they did enough. Han and crew found out only when they left that the pilots weren't going to be able to complete the job.

Edited January 10, 2016 by MrsR

[SeanC]

Regarding speculation about Rey's parentage, one of the most interesting bits of speculation I've seen floating around is, as a corollary to the predominant "Luke's daughter" theory, that Felicity Jones' character in Rogue One is the Skymom (TM the Tumblr post linked earlier in this thread). The plot of that movie is the theft of the plans for the original Death Star, so presumably just before A New Hope, meaning that Jones' character and Luke would be of the same generation; she has a British accent (if the "Luke's daughter" theory is true, Rey's accent has to come from Skymom); and having Rogue One come out between Episodes VII and VIII would allow them to kind of plug a mother for Rey retroactively into the franchise. Honestly, it's such a slick idea that if it's not true I bet Disney wishes they had come up with it.

Edited January 10, 2016 by SeanC

[MrsR]

I had suspected myself that Felicity Jones character might be Mrs. Luke S. when I read the plot line and realized they are in the same age group.

Then I read who Mads Mikkelsen plays and I really convinced myself that she was Mrs S.

I hope so because it would give the films an interesting gravitas and reinforce the concept that with these characters, nothing is coincidence.

[Morrigan2575]

That's interesting.

[SeanC]

Accents are environmental, but the only other person we meet in Rey's part of Jakku doesn't sound anything like her, and her dad (if Luke is her dad) has an American accent; by cinematic logic, mom is the obvious choice.

[InsertWordHere]

I don't think Simon Pegg's character sounded that different from her. Her accent was more RP than his but his voice just sounded more growly to me. I'm not saying they were close or that the junk dealer was ever kind to her but we know he was present when she was left on Jakku and her interactions with him could have been enough for her to pick up his accent. Especially if her life was as lonely as it appeared to be.

That said, I thought young Rey sounded like she already had a Coruscanti (I think?) accent when she was left on Jakku, but it was hard to tell because she was (understandably) shouting and sobbing during her one line.

[MrsR]

Reading all the stuff about Max Landis and his complaints about Rey being a Mary Sue was interesting.

The guy who wrote a Superman movie is complaining that a character is too good at everything!!

Hee!

Really, is Lawrence Kasdan a fan fiction writer? Are Lawrence Kasdan and J.J. Abrams young women with too much time on their hands and a yearning for fantasy figures that reflect themselves and who they wish to be?

Okay moving on.

So my 29 year old friend who loves films told me he didn't really understand the New Republic vs the First Order vs the Resistance. He actually asked for MORE politics. Treading into Phantom Menace territory there, we warned him.

It lead to a discussion that really pointed out a generation gap in understanding the references in this film. Turns out he has little understanding of WWII, while my other friend and I are Baby Boomers. He thought that the term Stormtroopers originated with Star Wars and had never seen Triumph of the Will.

New Republic = United States, isolationists.

Resistance = The Brits holding back the burgeoning empire building of the F.O. Secretly supported by factions in the NR (Lend lease policy)

First Order = Axis powers, specifically Germany.

Stormtroopers = Hitler youth.

Destruction of Hosnian system and fleet = Pearl Harbor

Snoke = Hitler

Hux and Ren = Himmler and Goebbels

and my other friend came up with this one that I din't notice

Maz' Castle = Rick's Cafe American from Casablanca

I think a script written by a non-baby boomer like Kasdan would have a very different feel to the structure of the politics.

I hope Kasdan follows through with this and we have Battles of Britain and Dunkirk like evacuations and D. Day.

Part of me wishes that it was Han running the Cafe American type club. I could see Han doing that in his golden years.

[Emily Thrace]

Reading all the stuff about Max Landis and his complaints about Rey being a Mary Sue was interesting.

The guy who wrote a Superman movie is complaining that a character is too good at everything!!

Hee!

Really, is Lawrence Kasdan a fan fiction writer? Are Lawrence Kasdan and J.J. Abrams young women with too much time on their hands and a yearning for fantasy figures that reflect themselves and who they wish to be?

Okay moving on.

So my 29 year old friend who loves films told me he didn't really understand the New Republic vs the First Order vs the Resistance. He actually asked for MORE politics. Treading into Phantom Menace territory there, we warned him.

It lead to a discussion that really pointed out a generation gap in understanding the references in this film. Turns out he has little understanding of WWII, while my other friend and I are Baby Boomers. He thought that the term Stormtroopers originated with Star Wars and had never seen Triumph of the Will.

New Republic = United States, isolationists.

Resistance = The Brits holding back the burgeoning empire building of the F.O. Secretly supported by factions in the NR (Lend lease policy)

First Order = Axis powers, specifically Germany.

Stormtroopers = Hitler youth.

Destruction of Hosnian system and fleet = Pearl Harbor

Snoke = Hitler

Hux and Ren = Himmler and Goebbels

and my other friend came up with this one that I din't notice

Maz' Castle = Rick's Cafe American from Casablanca

I think a script written by a non-baby boomer like Kasdan would have a very different feel to the structure of the politics.

I hope Kasdan follows through with this and we have Battles of Britain and Dunkirk like evacuations and D. Day.

Part of me wishes that it was Han running the Cafe American type club. I could see Han doing that in his golden years.

Actually Stormtrooper is even older than that the Germans actually used it to refer to Canadian troops in WW1. It was also a name given to German infiltration units. Triumph of the Will used it a a propaganda move.

[Bats27]

I got the politics in the film. But yeah, I feel like how The Resistance factors in could have maybe been explained a bit more. It's in the opening crawl, and Hux briefly brings it up in his speech, but it's quick in both cases.