Figure Skating

[emmawoodhouse]

Green/Parsons FD is miles ahead of C/P. I think they could contend with H/B for the 3rd spot, unless H/B have markedly improved. I have yet to see their programs.

Edited November 1, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[Avaleigh]

5 hours ago, healthnut said:

Right now it’s Vaileva, Trusova, and Liza. Scherbakova has some ground to make up and losing to Maia earlier in the season didn’t help. It’s crazy to think either the world champion or runner up won’t be at the Olympics but unless someone is injured in February (I realize Sasha is injured now), that’s exactly what is going to happen. 

You'd think I knew these people with how sad I feel about the ones who won't make the team.

I feel like it's too soon to count Shcherbakova out.

I didn't realize until a couple of days ago that Trusova is ranked #1 in the world by the ISU. Something is truly broken in the sport for that to be the case. 

I'm really looking forward to the sub event for Cup of China. I need Loena Hendrickx to have that lights out performance. 

[Lady Whistleup]

I would love for the Russian team to be Kamila, Aliona, and Anna. I feel like these three ladies balance artistry with jump content very well. I love Liza's spunk and longevity, but she's a bit like the female Plushenko (and actually they share the same coach).

[CeeBeeGee]

On 10/31/2021 at 12:30 AM, specialj67 said:

I do not like Valieva’s free skate this season. The choreography has absolutely no connection to the music, and it doesn’t require her to hold a position for longer than a second. It’s like Zagitova version 2.0, but with quads.

Right? It's so busy. Bolero takes time--it's generally a mistake to use it for figure skating because the piece is so long, but especially so for younger skaters. T&D obviously owned it and Carolina Kostner had the patience to work with, not against, the music.

[healthnut]

11 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

I haven't watched the Ice Dance yet, but it seems that Green/Parsons have overtaken Carreira/Ponomarenko in the U.S. pecking order? G/P finished 4th and C/P were eighth? Is it the coaching change for C/P? They were #4 in U.S. ice dance before switching to Moir (not counting the year they had to WTD due to a COVID exposure before Nats). Disappointed for C/P.

C/P are in real trouble, they were hoping to contend for that third spot with H/B and H/B were far ahead of them in their one head-to-head last year at SA. And now being passed by G/P, ice dance is so political, they will need a total overhaul next year to be relevant. I think H/B are in real trouble, too. We haven’t seen them yet, according to Wikipedia they are going Love to Love You Baby and Bad Girls by Donna Summer for rhythm dance and Chopin for their free dance. They scored 113.43 at worlds last year and were 9th, meanwhile G/P have scored 114 twice this season. If the US thinks G/P are the next great American team, they will probably give them the nod this year so they get Olympic experience. It’s going to be very interesting…

This past weekend, the US judge had Green/Parson first and Gilles/Poirier third. It’s clearly shenanigans to try and keep Piper/Paul’s scores down because they are worried about the US losing Olympic bronze. In contrast, the Canadian judge had Chock & Bates first last week, same deal, maybe? Ice dance is so enjoyable, I wish it didn’t feel like the results are going to be predetermined before Beijing. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by healthnut

[SeanC]

45 minutes ago, healthnut said:

C/P are in real trouble, they were hoping to contend for that third spot with H/B

If you mean on the Olympic team, no they weren't, Christina doesn't have citizenship.

[healthnut]

 

11 hours ago, SeanC said:

If you mean on the Olympic team, no they weren't, Christina doesn't have citizenship.

Yes, which made the move to Montreal even more puzzling. But I was talking about third place in general, their goal was to be 3rd at Nationals in 2019. They are going in the wrong direction. 

[Lady Whistleup]

17 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Right? It's so busy. Bolero takes time--it's generally a mistake to use it for figure skating because the piece is so long, but especially so for younger skaters. T&D obviously owned it and Carolina Kostner had the patience to work with, not against, the music.

I don't like Kamila's LP. I think it's very typical of Eteri to give girls in their first senior year this sort of generic, jump-loaded program. 

However I do very much enjoy Kamila's skating. I love the flow she has on the ice, the smoothness of her edges and strokes, her spin positions, her arms, etc. And also her jump content is IMO very impressive.

[Avaleigh]

14 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

However I do very much enjoy Kamila's skating. I love the flow she has on the ice, the smoothness of her edges and strokes, her spin positions, her arms, etc. And also her jump content is IMO very impressive.

I agree. Kamila is a full package skater. I especially like her spins. 

I know that people think that Eteri's skaters are all alike but I think most of the girls are well rounded artistically and athletically. Anna, Kamila, Daria and Aliona are all polished and each has something that makes them stand out. I think some of the problem comes down to Daniil's choreography. That and the skaters being rewarded for overloading their programs so that there's no reward for holding positions and every excuse to rush elements and transitions to maximize as many points as possible. They're definitely capable of creating striking lines and positions but they rush through everything in order to cram as much into a program as possible. And since they keep being rewarded for these programs via PCS of course they're going to continue to go back to the well of predictable leg kicks, blink-and-you-miss-them spirals and bauers and rushed in general choreography. Nothing is going to change until this can somehow be addressed in the COP.

I'd like to see what sort of program Misha Ge or Jason Brown could create for one of these skaters. Unfortunately I can't really see anyone in the Eteri group branching out and trying a new team of coaches and choreographers because it hasn't worked out well for the skaters who have tried to leave the group. The examples of Evgenia, Sasha and Aliona are basically cautionary tales and are probably enough to deter anyone in the current group including skaters who are junior and below from ever believing that they could do better elsewhere. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Avaleigh

[GeminiDancer]

On 10/31/2021 at 4:49 PM, KittenPokerCheater said:

And the Sinnerman/Jason Brown program is simply divine.

Yes to this! I think this is my all time favorite short program.

[Lady Whistleup]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

I agree. Kamila is a full package skater. I especially like her spins. 

I know that people think that Eteri's skaters are all alike but I think most of the girls are well rounded artistically and athletically. Anna, Kamila, Daria and Aliona are all polished and each has something that makes them stand out. I think some of the problem comes down to Daniil's choreography. That and the skaters being rewarded for overloading their programs so that there's no reward for holding positions and every excuse to rush elements and transitions to maximize as many points as possible. They're definitely capable of creating striking lines and positions but they rush through everything in order to cram as much into a program as possible. And since they keep being rewarded for these programs via PCS of course they're going to continue to go back to the well of predictable leg kicks, blink-and-you-miss-them spirals and bauers and rushed in general choreography. Nothing is going to change until this can somehow be addressed in the COP.

One thing about Eteri is she has many girls in her group, so I have always heard that Daniil has a bit of a plug and chug approach to programs. The skaters themselves have little input -- Daniil just presents them with an SP and an LP.

Some skaters are insistent on new programs. Aliona I think asked for totally new programs this season after her SP and LP weren't to her liking. But as I said, I think you sort of have to work your way up with Eteri to get that right. For instance, Evgenia Medvedeva's programs seemed more personalized than Alina Zagitova's.

One thing I have noticed is that pandemic eating habits affected everyone and Eteri's starvation group weren't immune either. The girls she has now in general look taller and sturdier than they had in the past. It actually bodes well for the Olympics, the fact that they mostly still have their jumps after puberty and some extra weight.

[specialj67]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

I agree. Kamila is a full package skater. I especially like her spins. 

I know that people think that Eteri's skaters are all alike but I think most of the girls are well rounded artistically and athletically. Anna, Kamila, Daria and Aliona are all polished and each has something that makes them stand out. I think some of the problem comes down to Daniil's choreography. That and the skaters being rewarded for overloading their programs so that there's no reward for holding positions and every excuse to rush elements and transitions to maximize as many points as possible. They're definitely capable of creating striking lines and positions but they rush through everything in order to cram as much into a program as possible. And since they keep being rewarded for these programs via PCS of course they're going to continue to go back to the well of predictable leg kicks, blink-and-you-miss-them spirals and bauers and rushed in general choreography. Nothing is going to change until this can somehow be addressed in the COP.

I'd like to what sort of program Misha Ge or Jason Brown could create for one of these skaters. Unfortunately I can't really see anyone in the Eteri group branching out and trying a new team of coaches and choreographers because it hasn't worked out well for the skaters who have tried to leave the group. The examples of Evgenia, Sasha and Aliona are basically cautionary tales and are probably enough to deter anyone in the current group including skaters who are junior and below from ever believing that they could do better elsewhere. 

God, I would LOVE to see any of the top skaters in Eteri’s group use programs from almost any other choreographer. I know it won’t happen (why spend the money with an outsider when you can save it by keeping everything in house?)

I also hope the ISU revisits some of the PCS criteria after this season. A skater should be rewarded just as much for holding one beautiful position for 4 seconds as they would for racing through 4 hand-wavey choreographed moments in the same amount of time. And I’m not talking about the choreographic sequence, which seems to be the only point in a program right now when a position might be held longer than a second or two. I’d like to see skaters rewarded more for held positions throughout their programs.

[Jeddah]

55 minutes ago, specialj67 said:

 

I also hope the ISU revisits some of the PCS criteria after this season. A skater should be rewarded just as much for holding one beautiful position for 4 seconds as they would for racing through 4 hand-wavey choreographed moments in the same amount of time. And I’m not talking about the choreographic sequence, which seems to be the only point in a program right now when a position might be held longer than a second or two. I’d like to see skaters rewarded more for held positions throughout their programs.

I wish they’d bring back spirals for the women! So many beautiful moments came from spirals.

[emmawoodhouse]

42 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I wish they’d bring back spirals for the women! So many beautiful moments came from spirals.

Karen Chen has a lovely spiral. 

[Avaleigh]

44 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I wish they’d bring back spirals for the women! So many beautiful moments came from spirals.

I think a spiral sequence should be mandatory for a long program. Apart from length and having more jumps, there's nothing else that sets a long program apart from a short program. Also, Americans used to kill it with spiral sequences. Sasha, Michelle, Sarah, Alissa, hell even Nicole Bobek back when the spiral sequence was more or less a throwaway element. Nancy Kerrigan may have done an easier spiral but it was still pretty iconic.

Karen's spiral is a program highlight. I want these moments back in the sport. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Olympic Channel just replayed the women's free program. I really concentrated on Kamila this time. Jumps aside, she's a terrific spinner. I wasn't wearing my glasses, so I couldn't read the tracker to see her spin scores. I guess I will have to dig up the protocols to check out the massive GOE she got for everything she did, aside from the 3A.

[Lady Whistleup]

Kamila's programs here:

 

[Good Queen Jane]

So the USA is only sending dance teams to GPItalia/Cup of China substitute this weekend? I wonder why.

[ChicksDigScars]

I agree about Valieva's program being too busy. And there are some weird squatting positions in it. Not elegant. And I can't help it. I HAAAAATE tights over skate boots. And BLACK tights over white skate boots? I cannot stop staring at the fug. 

That said, I'd prefer her as the OGM favorite over Trusova's awful nothing but quads programs. 

 

[Jeddah]

4 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

I HAAAAATE tights over skate boots. And BLACK tights over white skate boots? I cannot stop staring at the fug. 

For me it’s the gloves! So severe looking.

[emmawoodhouse]

7 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

So the USA is only sending dance teams to GPItalia/Cup of China substitute this weekend? I wonder why.

It was originally Cup of China. Maybe travel issues? Not enough secondary cannon fodder to send? 

[Lady Whistleup]

Kamila's LP makes me appreciate Aliona more for insisting on an LP set to Billie Ellish music. I wish Kamila could have an LP that takes advantage both of her youth and her light, lyrical style. Instead the program tries to add a heaviness that doesn't need to be there -- heavy music, heavy costume, big black gloves. Because Kamila's lightness, speed, and grace are her best qualities.

[redpencil]

5 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

So the USA is only sending dance teams to GPItalia/Cup of China substitute this weekend? I wonder why.

Bradie was supposed to be there originally, but she withdrew last week. No idea why she was the only other one though.

[healthnut]

13 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

So the USA is only sending dance teams to GPItalia/Cup of China substitute this weekend? I wonder why.

Those plus Bradie were all that were assigned back in June, not sure why. It’s the only Grand Prix they won’t have a man or a pair. I imagine Bradie withdrew too late for them to get a visa for a replacement.

[Avaleigh]

12 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Kamila's LP makes me appreciate Aliona more for insisting on an LP set to Billie Ellish music. I wish Kamila could have an LP that takes advantage both of her youth and her light, lyrical style. Instead the program tries to add a heaviness that doesn't need to be there -- heavy music, heavy costume, big black gloves. Because Kamila's lightness, speed, and grace are her best qualities.

Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe might have been good for Kamila. It's been used before but it isn't in warhorse territory.  

Another piece of music that I think could have been interesting is Wagner's Entry of the Gods into Valhalla. The way that it builds is perfect for an Olympic performance. I think it would have worked well for Anna or Kamila. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Avaleigh
Spelling

[Domenicholas]

Yuzuru Hanyu had to drop out of the NHK Trophy due to a right-ankle injury.

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2021/11/7fdba5404b4e-figure-skating-injury-forces-hanyu-out-of-nov-12-nhk-trophy.html

[le bordel chaud]

skatingscores.com is the most amazing resource! You can re-score any program and it is SO MUCH FUN! Personally, I think Valieva is a very good skater, but she is definitely being overscored on PCS. I had her PCS for the LP a full 5 points lower than the judges did. OTOH, my marks for the LP TSS of Kostornaia (who is my favorite current skater) was only about a tenth less than what the judges actually gave her! Amazing! LOL

I also absolutely agree that the PCS are not scored accordingly and with enough differentiation. I make sure to do that when I score programs. I feel Valieva's Bolero deserves higher marks for Transitions and Composition than for Performance or Interpretation. But she is scoring in the 9s across the board and I just do not agree with that. At least not for her Bolero.

I have no idea why they kept that LP from last year for her. Maybe because it worked for Alina Zagitova and they're superstitious? (Zagitova kept her junior LP for her senior debut season and won the OGM.) To me, it takes a specific kind of skater to pull off Bolero, and Valieva is not it. Something lighter and lyrical would be much more complimentary to her strengths.

I also really dislike Aliona's music this season. I must have re-watched her short program she had for the 2018-19 and 2019-20 seasons 5 or 6 times yesterday--the Max Richter. That music was just MAGIC. I do not like the Billie Eilish Forever selections. And the short program music is downright ghastly for her IMO. I think she has some of the best skating skills in the sport, and she deserves better programs to showcase them.

Edited November 4, 2021 by le bordel chaud

[annzeepark914]

Re: spirals? A change edge spiral is not easy to do (I recall Sasha's shakey ankles) and IMO should be required again. Plus...figure skating is supposed to be beautiful and that spiral is a showstopper, especially done from one end of the rink to the other (so, they can give up a darn jump). 

[le bordel chaud]

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Ravel's Daphis et Chloe might have been good for Kamila. It's been used before but it isn't in warhorse territory.  

Another piece of music that I think could have been interesting is Wagner's Entry of the Gods into Valhalla. The way that it builds is perfect for an Olympic performance. I think it would have worked well for Anna or Kamila. 

Those are good choices! I think there are probably dozens of pieces that would be a better fit for her than the repetitious and droning Bolero. I like Bolero itself, but there are few skaters who can effectively do it justice.

[le bordel chaud]

The only record Aliona has left in the senior division is for the SP TSS. And I have no doubt Valieva will topple that soon, unfortunately. I'm a bit miffed that Valieva's PCS from the short at last weekend's Skate Canada was higher than the PCS Kostornaia got for that world-record short from the 2019 Grand Prix Final. (Re-looking at the protocols, at that very event Zagitova had higher PCS than Aliona!) Hard disagree from me. On both! Sweet Jesus on a cross.

Edited November 4, 2021 by le bordel chaud

[Avaleigh]

Does anyone know if it's mathematically possible for anyone to beat Trusova if she skates a clean program with the 5 quads? Does Rika have any shot by just skating clean or will she need one of the Russians to screw up? 

Rika, Alysa and Loena are my three hopes for a surprise shake up to the placements at the Olympics and Worlds. I want one of them to pull a Kaetlyn Osmond. 

[le bordel chaud]

It's also great to see that after being screwed over by the Russian Skating Federation so many times, Anastasiia Gubanova was able to obtain Georgian citizenship and start skating under that flag. Unfortunately, she continues to get low-balled and not get the marks she deserves. Her PCS at Finlandia were downright CRIMINAL. The Dutch judge rightfully had her third. I don't know what the other judges were watching. She has better presentation and interpretation than any other skater in the world today, in my opinion. Injustices like this are so incredibly depressing.

Edited November 4, 2021 by le bordel chaud

[Lady Whistleup]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Does anyone know if it's mathematically possible for anyone to beat Trusova if she skates a clean program with the 5 quads? Does Rika have any shot by just skating clean or will she need one of the Russians to screw up? 

Rika, Alysa and Loena are my three hopes for a surprise shake up to the placements at the Olympics and Worlds. I want one of them to pull a Kaetlyn Osmond. 

Valieva can beat Trusova easily with her 3A in combination.

[healthnut]

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

 

Does anyone know if it's mathematically possible for anyone to beat Trusova if she skates a clean program with the 5 quads? Does Rika have any shot by just skating clean or will she need one of the Russians to screw up? 

 

Valieva. Especially with the triple axel in the short, she’ll have a 7-8 point lead. She scored 106 in Technical elements at Skate Canada which is unreal, Trusova got an 88 with five quad attempts (not landed) at Worlds. Trusova would have to land everything, no under rotations, just to beat Valieva. With her inconsistencies and injury, I just don’t se it. The question is, can anyone beat Valieva? I think not. 

[specialj67]

That’s a bummer about Hanyu. Though now this is a real opportunity for Vincent.

[Lady Whistleup]

I think this might be Vincent's year. He seems to be peaking at the right time.

[HartofDixie]

Results link for Gran Premio  D’Italia (replacing Cup of China)

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2122/gpita2021/

[SeanC]

In her past few events Loena Hendrickx has made a habit of fumbling a jump in the short program and then having a strong free skate that takes her right up to the edge the podium, but not on it.  Now at Gran Premio d'Italia she had her first clean short in a while and is even leading that segment; hopefully she can keep it going for a medal tomorrow (given that she only has six triples, anything above bronze is probably a longshot).

[emmawoodhouse]

Which Shcherbakova will show up tomorrow? 

Kudos to the guys. Great competition with only a couple clunkers.

Edited November 5, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[specialj67]

I can appreciate that H/D have superior speed, power, and ice coverage, but I think I like Green and Parson’s Janet Jackson RD more.

also, I can’t pinpoint why, but Stepanova and Bukin’s RD made me cringe—same with the lower ranked French team. 

[healthnut]

38 minutes ago, specialj67 said:

I can appreciate that H/D have superior speed, power, and ice coverage, but I think I like Green and Parson’s Janet Jackson RD more.

Same. G/P look like they are  having so much fun, and look like they’d be great dancers off the ice. H/D look like they’re trying so hard, it just doesn’t look natural, seems forced. My two cents. 

[TwoBitUsherette]

I prefer Gr/P's RD to H/D's, too. Shame about her fall in the FD today. I'd love to see those two get that third Olympic spot this year.

[emmawoodhouse]

22 minutes ago, TwoBitUsherette said:

I prefer Gr/P's RD to H/D's, too. Shame about her fall in the FD today. I'd love to see those two get that third Olympic spot this year.

We haven't seen H/B yet, so we don't know how they'll score in the FD vs. what G/P got when they skated clean (~115). 

Love Sui/Han, but their last lift was scary! Thank heavens he was able to save it what with her totally upside down. 

[Lady Whistleup]

Anna Shcherbakova got her quad flip back and seems to be working back to peak form. 

[emmawoodhouse]

3 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Anna Shcherbakova got her quad flip back and seems to be working back to peak form. 

I didn't see the skate, but judging from the protocols, the Good Anna showed up today. 

[Lady Whistleup]

 

[Lady Whistleup]

Boyang Jin had the sort of meltdown in the FS that we rarely see anymore. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Yuma Kagiyama had the skate of his life and slayed about 8 guys on his way to gold! I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the Olympic podium. He's sublime.

Edited November 6, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[TwoBitUsherette]

On 11/6/2021 at 2:50 PM, emmawoodhouse said:

We haven't seen H/B yet, so we don't know how they'll score in the FD vs. what G/P got when they skated clean (~115). 

Love Sui/Han, but their last lift was scary! Thank heavens he was able to save it what with her totally upside down. 

I'm afraid we'll have to wait a little longer to see Kaitlin and Jean-Luc, USFS just announced that they've had to pull out of NHK due to concussion protocol. I feel awful for them, they've had the worst luck.

 

[emmawoodhouse]

Oh no! I hope Katelyn recovers soon. As much as I have enjoyed G/P's programs this season, I always look forward to H/B, as they tend to think outside the Gadbois box.