S02.E20: Stadiums

[Athena]

Cities spend massive amounts of public money on privately-owned stadiums. Cities issue tax-exempt municipal bonds that — wait, don’t fall asleep!

[Hanahope]

Guessing there will be some mention of the whole Greek/Euro kerfluffle.

[enlightenedbum]

Public financing of stadium projects is like my #1 biggest public policy pet peeve so I'm glad he finally went after it.  Too bad they couldn't get Kyle Chandler to deliver the speech at the end though.

[Victor the Crab]

The topic of local and state/provincial governments funding sports stadiums and arenas was something I always thought Ollie would sink his teeth into. Following sports for a long time, both on and off the playing field, threatening taxpayers of pulling up roots and moving to a new city unless they get a new playpen is something that can be traced back to when Al Davis won his lawsuit against the NFL when he wanted to move his Raiders from Oakland to Los Angeles, and intensified when Art Modell moved the Cleveland Browns to Baltimore. They can do it because losing a team can be devastating to the community. And what Ollie said about tax revenues justifying the use of building these sports toys being pure bullshit is true. Google the name Andrew Zimbalist, he's a sports business journalist who's been writing about this sort of thing for a long time.

 

And the Milwaukee Bucks' situation gets even more outrageous when you discover that Wisconsin governor, Presidential hopeful, and hall monitor rat Scott Walker is or was hoping to offset the public cost of the Bucks proposed arena by charging an additional 15% to those that are late in paying their fines for things like their traffic tickets, and have the power to garnish their wages and salary to help cover the cost of the proposed arena if they do end up falling behind in their payments. Kind of like how the police in Ferguson, Missouri harassed African Americans and arrested them so they could make them pay any fines they could slap on them in order to fund their town.

 

Remind me again why we follow sports?

[VCRTracking]

Jeez, that Coyotes fan WTF?

[ganesh]

That's why there will never be a football team in LA. Every owner uses it as leverage. JO didn't mention this, but part of the reason why stadiums are so ridiculous is because it's way cheaper to stay home and watch the game, especially with NFL Red Zone and such great tv/sound systems. So they have to come up with all these bells and whistles to get people to come. 

 

That said, the SF Giants stadium is great. Not a bad seat, easy to get to, and there's tons of restaurants and bars right there. 

 

I like sports, but I've always found this ridiculous. Especially the "refusing to open their books." I don't know why an owner has never been sued and the court compelled them to open their books. 

[attica]

For all the money the Bucks are paying for the production and airing of those commercials, they can buy their own future hologram machine.

[Jamoche]

That said, the SF Giants stadium is great. Not a bad seat, easy to get to, and there's tons of restaurants and bars right there. 

The 49ers stadium, OTOH - it didn't have the traffic infrastructure to support what was already there, they knew going in that there wouldn't be enough parking so they've tried various schemes, including an attempt to buy a local youth soccer complex at well below market value - and got shotdown by the kids and their viral video. And, oh joy, they get the 50th anniversary Super Bowl. I'm 5 miles away from it and nothing I can find indicates if that's far enough to avoid the mess.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Jamoche

[VCRTracking]

 

That said, the SF Giants stadium is great. Not a bad seat, easy to get to, and there's tons of restaurants and bars right there

 

Yeah it definitely improved that neighborhood on the waterfront. My brother teaches 1st grade and is a HUGE Giants fan and takes his class on field trips there.

[Hanahope]

JO didn't mention this, but part of the reason why stadiums are so ridiculous is because it's way cheaper to stay home and watch the game, especially with NFL Red Zone and such great tv/sound systems. So they have to come up with all these bells and whistles to get people to come.

 

Not to mention that it costs a near fortune to go to the games, so its primarily rich people going to most of these games.  Most middle class (not even considering low income people) can't afford the $400 or more for tickets, parking, food, for their family to go to a game.

 

I'm so waiting for the day a baseball slams into that aquarium and shatters the glass.

[trow125]

That said, the SF Giants stadium is great. Not a bad seat, easy to get to, and there's tons of restaurants and bars right there. 

Incidentally, AT&T Park (where the Giants play) is "the only new stadium built since the 1950s that was paid for entirely with private money." (source) Mainly because voters in SF rejected public funding four times at the ballot box. And I do think the ballpark has contributed a lot to the area around it -- there is relatively little parking so most people arrive via public transit, which leads to a vibrant street life.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the Raiders can go ahead and move to L.A. Good riddance. Another thing about football stadiums that always strikes me as insane: for the most part, they're building this huge structure that will only be used a handful of times a year. At least with a baseball stadium, you know it'll be occupied 90 days each season, and more if the team makes the playoffs.

[Hanahope]

As far as I'm concerned, the Raiders can go ahead and move to L.A. Good riddance. Another thing about football stadiums that always strikes me as insane: for the most part, they're building this huge structure that will only be used a handful of times a year. At least with a baseball stadium, you know it'll be occupied 90 days each season, and more if the team makes the playoffs.

 

The Raiders tried that what 20 years ago and failed miserably.  Its such an empty threat.  The whole reason the Rams left and the Raiders couldn't make it work is because LA is so spread out and people just aren't as much into going to the games, since its still pretty damn nice in LA during the late fall/winter.  I think LA has definitely gotten used to not having a team by now.

 

I don't know about other stadiums, but at least in Philly they use the football stadium for soccer games and a few other events (concerts, Marvel attraction).  It probably does still stand empty and unused 50% of the time, which is likely what the costs for any event there is so much.

[Popples]

I'm not sure if they have it in the other three major North American sports, but I so wish John had called the NFL out on the PSL (Personal Seat License) bullshit the owners use to dick the fans out of more money. You have to lay down thousands of dollars each year for the right to then buy seats if your a season ticket holder. When they did MetLife Stadium (home of the NY Giants/Jets), I think the license fees were like $15,000 dollars. Like ganesh said, with the way technology has come around with HD and even streaming, it's better to watch a game from the comforts of your own homes.

[walnutqueen]

The topic of local and state/provincial governments funding sports stadiums and arenas was something I always thought Ollie would sink his teeth into. Following sports for a long time, both on and off the playing field, threatening taxpayers of pulling up roots and moving to a new city unless they get a new playpen is something that can be traced back to when Al Davis won his lawsuit against the NFL when he wanted to move his Raiders from Oakland to Los Angeles, and intensified when Art Modell moved the Cleveland Browns to Baltimore. They can do it because losing a team can be devastating to the community. And what Ollie said about tax revenues justifying the use of building these sports toys being pure bullshit is true. Google the name Andrew Zimbalist, he's a sports business journalist who's been writing about this sort of thing for a long time.

 

And the Milwaukee Bucks' situation gets even more outrageous when you discover that Wisconsin governor, Presidential hopeful, and hall monitor rat Scott Walker is or was hoping to offset the public cost of the Bucks proposed arena by charging an additional 15% to those that are late in paying their fines for things like their traffic tickets, and have the power to garnish their wages and salary to help cover the cost of the proposed arena if they do end up falling behind in their payments. Kind of like how the police in Ferguson, Missouri harassed African Americans and arrested them so they could make them pay any fines they could slap on them in order to fund their town.

 

Remind me again why we follow sports?

 

I do not follow sports (except the Olympics), but living in San Diego County it is impossible to avoid the pearl clutching histrionics at the threat of the Chargers leaving us for Compton, CA.   I say "GO.  GO NOW!".  :-)

 

And go fuck yourself, Whoopi Goldberg.

[cattykit]

 

And go fuck yourself, Whoopi Goldberg.

This. 

 

 

The Raiders tried that what 20 years ago and failed miserably.  Its such an empty threat.

I've been a sports fan my entire life, especially the NFL--and that is over 50 years--and I'm just sick of it all.  I"ve seen many threats to leave and many actual relocations.  What does that tell you about their commitment to the community they've raped and pillaged.  I can't figure out how you are an "owner" of a team and not have to provide the place where your employees work, while taking taxpayer money to the point where the average taxpayer can't afford a ticket to a single game.  And they think that providing minimum wage jobs for unskilled stadium workers is somehow giving back.

[iMonrey]

It's getting to the point where I watch this show exclusively for the "quick" recap of the week at the beginning, because I can't remember the last time JO had a main story I gave a crap about. 

[Traveller519]

For me the biggest issue with the Stadium deals is when it's paid for largely (or entirely) by public money and there's littler (or no) direct revenue back to the city. I do see the benefit to a city of having an attractive facility in it's hometown to furnish a team. But if the thing's being built with public funds, then it should be owned operated and have a net income that trickles back to the city to offset it's debt service.

 

Most midsize to small towns don't have the demand to support a big arts scene like an Opera or Philharmonic orchestra. But governments recognize the social value in these things and provide subsidies and facilities for them. The Sports teams tend to be much more profitable and in demand. If the government's going to provide you with a venue, you shouldn't get the profits from it's operation.

[charlieboo]

It's getting to the point where I watch this show exclusively for the "quick" recap of the week at the beginning, because I can't remember the last time JO had a main story I gave a crap about.

And this is what I like best about the show. Every week I say, "who cares about that?" and then I end up educated and outraged about something I had never even thought about 10 minutes ago. And JO seems to affect real change (or else benefits from great serendipity) because so many of the things he rails against are changed/ended/begun shortly after his show.

[HyacinthBucket]

And this is what I like best about the show. Every week I say, "who cares about that?" and then I end up educated and outraged about something I had never even thought about 10 minutes ago. And JO seems to affect real change (or else benefits from great serendipity) because so many of the things he rails against are changed/ended/begun shortly after his show.

 

This absolutely applies to me as well.  While I treasure the short pieces, (the one about tourism in Antarctica is a real gem), the focus issue for the week never fails to draw me in once John begins speaking.  There are so many issues that I knew nothing about (net neutrality, FIFA, NCAA, infrastructure, etc.) that shocked and amazed me once I learned something about them.  With the jokes thrown in, those 15-18 minutes fly by!  "Other Countries Presidents of the United States" is an eye-opener, too.   Australia's Tony Abbott ...  aye-yi-yi! 

 

The sports stadium issue touched us personally as Browns fans.  (Yes, we still admit it, in spite of umpteen losing seasons.)  I think Art Modell was a good man who made a bad mistake, but that mistake still rankles today.  

Edited July 14, 2015 by HyacinthBucket

[stillshimpy]

Jon spends a fair amount of time addressing corruption in professional sports and the exploitation of fans, the greed of owners, etc and I don't personally follow sports.  That said, I always end up being glad he has covered something because it always turns out to have merit and is worthy of attention.   Some I find more interesting than others and I confess, I wasn't particularly interested by the stadium piece.  

 

It is an outrage and it does suck.  I wish some freaking team would just move the hell to LA so it can quit being the threat du jour  already.  I'm also in a town where a freaking football team is threatening to run off to LA in a huff.  I think it's the Ravens?  I'm in St. Louis, so it isn't like I know for sure one way or another.  Nobody ever talks about the teams other than the freaking Cardinals (I don't follow baseball either, although have fun everybody, I don't begrudge people the interest). 

 

But I am here to tell you, the last thing in the damned world that St. Louis can afford to do is pour money into another freaking stadium.  I won't even bore you with city vs. county tax structures, but there are parts of this city that are so poor they'd have to have a wealth infusion just to be considered poverty-stricken by Western standards.   

 

So it is an important issue and I'm glad he covered it.  I do wish that after two weeks off he'd had something that really grabbed me a bit more instead of an eat-your-vegetables type of "I know it's good for all of us" report.  

 

And go fuck yourself, Whoopi Goldberg.

 

That was among the weirdest things I have ever seen, in my entire life.  I have never watched The View except for clips.  The last time I saw Whoopi Goldberg in any professional capacity was a few years ago when I decided to watch the Treks, so maybe everyone else already knew that she'd lost her entire mind.  But as a newcomer to the Insanity Project that is Whoopi these days, I must ask, when did she become a complete stranger to both sense and reason?  

[attica]

when did she become a complete stranger to both sense and reason?

 

Ha!  Whoopi is led to reason, at last.

Edited July 14, 2015 by attica

[b2H]

My husband lived through the nightmare of building the stadium in Minneapolis, even to the point of remembering that awful ad that said a cancer kid wouldn't be able to see some sports star if the new stadium wasn't built.

Someone needs to get behind the concept of fully open books for the sports organization before any tax payer monies are used for a new stadium. Also telling was the baloney about putting codicils in the agreement for things that don't yet exist.

Sorry, but the neighborhoods don't benefit, the cities don't benefit. Why should anyone invest in this nonsense (and to be honest, originally from the Philadelphia are - that sports complex is absolutely gorgeous!!!!).

Edited July 15, 2015 by b2H

[Hanahope]

I'm in St. Louis, so it isn't like I know for sure one way or another.

 

I believe you have the St. Louis Rams, which is the team that moved FROM LA.  Yeah, if LA was so great, why did a team leave it?

 

Honestly, I wouldn't care about stadiums if it was only the ticket-buyers who paid for them.  If someone wants to pay $200 per ticket to see a football game, go for it.  I'll watch it at home with no line for the bathroom or food/drink, and probably a better view.  But having those stadiums paid for with tax-payer money, that could be used for a lot of other things, like education - especially since these stadiums usually get paid with urban city funds and its urban schools that are usually the most underfunded, that is really disgusting.  And agreed that its not like the stadiums bring in that much 'coat-tail' revenue, since to make these big behemoths with parking, they are usually some distance away from restaurants and such that might benefit from proximity (some exceptions apply, but likely not many).

[fastiller]

Sorry, but the neighborhoods don't benefit, the cities don't benefit. Why should anyone invest in this nonsense (and to be honest, originally from the Philadelphia are - that sports complex is absolutely gorgeous!!!!).

 

Worse - sometimes the neighbourhoods are ripped apart and longtime businesses get the shaft.  Witness the Eminent Domain takings of the area surrounding Bail-Out Ballpark, er, sorry - I mean Citi-Field.  NYC Shutters Small Businesses in the Name of Progress.  These businesses may have been junkyards and repair shops, but they provided a living for people.

[iMonrey]

 

Every week I say, "who cares about that?" and then I end up educated and outraged about something I had never even thought about 10 minutes ago. And JO seems to affect real change (or else benefits from great serendipity) because so many of the things he rails against are changed/ended/begun shortly after his show.

 

Sure it's great he shines a spotlight on some of these under-covered issues, but I wish he'd take on a current event that's actually in the news, like the Greek bailout or the Iranian nuclear deal. He's got the luxury of covering these kinds of events in a way nobody else does and if he could do a fraction of the good he does for some of these more trivial topics all the better. That's why I get so frustrated with main stories about sports arenas or FIFA. 

[Traveller519]

Sure it's great he shines a spotlight on some of these under-covered issues, but I wish he'd take on a current event that's actually in the news, like the Greek bailout or the Iranian nuclear deal. He's got the luxury of covering these kinds of events in a way nobody else does and if he could do a fraction of the good he does for some of these more trivial topics all the better. That's why I get so frustrated with main stories about sports arenas or FIFA. 

I'm way late in replying to this, iMonrey, but I think there's two factors at play in the ability of the show to cover those types of current affairs topics. One is trying to establish his own voice. In a given week, he's the last to weigh in on the topic, and by that point, depending on when the story broke it could be nearing the point of exhaustion in a lot of media. By picking up some of these other stories that will hit at different heart strings for people he's managed to get his voice out there. FIFA part I going on YouTube definitely did a lot for him.

 

The second one is the amount of research and available information that needs to go into his pieces. The current events topics are items that are currently in flux and there may not be enough information to warrant taking a full stand on one side or another. In his extended pieces, he identifies the problem, provides an overwhelming amount of evidence (by piggybacking a fair bit on other investigative journalism), and then makes us care, and usually provides some sort of call to action. I know Stadiums seem like a trivial item, but they are hugely political in local spheres. Cities scraping by to fund social programs and services are funding these because you don't want to be the mayor that let the local Sports Team up and walk away. And the more public perception understands that their contribution is a balancing act, and who is benefiting from the cost the more public pressure is being put on owners to pony up themselves, or let the city run it.

[Delwyn]

More stadium mongering this week. Or, still the same mongering, I guess. Chargers to File Relocation Paperwork Ahead of Potential Los Angeles Move. They are doing it to get in ahead of the Raiders and the Rams.

[FortKnox]

Well it looks like the Rams are going back to LA and the Chargers could follow. Now I don't care for football at all but, I couldn't help but, think of this show.

[Danny Franks]

From what I've read, the city of St. Louis is still paying off the bonds taken out to build the Edward Jones Dome for the Rams twenty years ago. The previous owner claimed she wanted a team in her hometown, which is why she moved them to St. Louis, but man, she fleeced the everloving hell out of that hometown to do it.

 

I don't know how the Rams' new stadium is being financed, but I would guess that they're not putting up much money themselves to do it.