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S02.E10: Gunpowder, Treason And Plot

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Episode Synopsis: In the season 2 finale, Abe plots to assassinate Major Hewlett. Ben fights at the Battle of Monmouth. Benedict Arnold continues to covet Peggy Shippen.

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Damn!  Abe's still alive. 

 

This show needs more Ben Tallmadge and his cuteness.  Said it before, saying it again.

 

I was wondering why Peggy was playing hard to marry with Benedict?  Historically, I thought it was love at first sight.

 

Finally, Tallmadge and Arnold need a hottie off battle royale.  Boost the ratings.

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Damn - surprised that they left the finale with such a cliffhanger. Honestly, the ratings since the Monday move have declined significantly, so I didn't expect such a blatant cliffhanger for the show. Expected the final scene to be Washington et all congratulating themselves on winning a decisive and important battle in the scheme of Patriot victory. Hmm..makes me wonder and think that maybe AMC decided to renew for a season 3 anyway. Excellent news, if I am right. (I hope I am)

 

Loved the battle scene with the song (can someone tell me who that was?) playing in the background. Jesus Christ, it was all military suicide. I mean, you are standing in a line, completely exposed to basically whoever can aim a musket with a modicum of accuracy. Terrible. Especially as the "big wigs" were nice and protected sitting on their horses on a safe hill far away. Basically, snipers rule. And yes, there were snipers even back then, with rifled barrels.

 

The whole Peggy Shippen thing rang false to me. First, Arnold basically saying "Hey, let's get married right NOW!" was totally offbase. Especially back then, you wouldn't be able to hold a wedding in a week, since there was no automation to makes things happen fast. No way. Don't know why they portray Arnold as being so eager to marry. (except the whole sex thing I guess)

 

Didn't buy the whole "Peggy is thinking about Andre, whilst Arnold is" - forgive me for my language - "fucking her from behind." Only because of the information I know about the marriage - this drama is not needed nor required. From what I have read,

Shippen and Arnold actually have a loving marriage and she remained devoted to him after his death.

Correct me if I am wrong. It just rang false. And it employed the typical trope of a woman allowing herself to get "fucked" for the "greater good". This didn't need to be the spin (as required on TV) on the Arnold/Shippen relationship. *sigh*

 

Ah Mary, conniving as ever. But it makes her character interesting. To be honest, when Mary burst into Hewett's room, I was like "dammit woman, screwing things up for Abe! But she's saavy and calculating (now). Awesome. Love her.

 

Simcoe on the battlefield, blood spattered and animalistic. Yes sir! You are awesome!

 

Caleb is the best mate ever. He will always watch your back. He looks off without the beard, but awesome person, man.

 

Tallmadge - sexy as hell and also a saavy leader. Good on him for exposing Bernard Lee. What bothered me was the fact that Washington ran this long game against Lee, allowing those troops to essentially be overwhelmed by numbers, and in turn, many men died as a result. So all I saw was the fact that Washington sacrificed the lives of many men, solely to set up a situation to prove Lee wrong. Terrible. Just terrible. You know what would be better? Arrest Lee, throw him in "gaol" way before this on "trumped up charges". and save the lives of the many men who you need to fight your battle. Did not like that. Pathetic (but not surprising for humanity in general).

 

I'll be honest - I struggled with Abigail not leaving with Akinbode. It honestly seems too modern. But I understand the conflict. Abigail is treated well by Andre. We've never seen him treat her badly at all. He respects her opinions, confides in her, and as she mentions, pays her. So I get it. But at the snap of a finger, she could be sold off to someone else, and that person may be a typical human asshole and treat her poorly, so I understood but at the same time, didn't in the sense of wanting to be free. But then, how many of us just deal with our own situations, as long as they are not so intolerable. So yeah, I get it. Kinda of.

 

For the latest superficial record, Akinbode was looking slamming in his Queen's Rangers uniform, leaning against the door like a boss. Damn, this show. Damn Andre. Damn Billy Lee. Damn Tallmadge......

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I'm shocked! Shocked!!! that Abe's latest cunning plan did not go off as hoped and he wound up in a predicament. He is, once again, the Spy Who Got Caught Too Much. Actually, it was at least Mary's improved plan that did not go quite right rather than Abe's phenomenally stupid idea of stabbing Hewlett to death in the home they shared. Hers at least had a conceivable chance at success had it not been for that bellowing loon, Rogers, hiding his impressive bulk amongst the bare trees and burnt-out buildings in order to successfully identify most of the key players in the spy ring. I'm not really certain, going by his incoherent words, as to whether Abe is to be his prize or his pupil.

 

I strongly suspected that Hewlett would not survive the season, so I am pleased that he did, though it could be the end of his character anyway, as I don't have a lot of faith in this show's chances of renewal.  I was pleased to see Anna showing concern for him and being disillusioned with Abraham's short-sighted callousness.

 

The scenes with Washington and Ben were a bit too pat, but at least they were an improvement over their earlier falling out.

 

Lots of Ben, lots of Caleb, i'm all in favour of that, especially if Caleb uses a hand cannon. 

 

I guess the season would not be truly over unless we saw Simcoe wild-eyed and howling with crazed bloodlust while his face was spattered with gore.

Edited by yuggapukka
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I have to ask why Abe and Anna have to meet in secret when THEY BOTH LIVE IN WHITEHALL.

 

Actually, a lot of things stopped making sense. Andre is a military tactician? Washington was freezing Ben out as a subterfuge? Richard Woodhull is still a dick (and a loyalist)? The worst was Abe (and now Peggy's) babbling bullshit because they don't think 5 minutes ahead.

 

It probably wasn't the appropriate reaction, but I just laughed my ass off while Peggy was doing her pre-wifely duty for Arnold, all whilst holding the braid. I believe, aside from the sex, Arnold was looking for a rich wife. Remember, he attacked Washington because he married wealth.

 

Most of the plot holes are obviously due to them trying to rewrite history. 

Woodhull was not in conflict with his father and not married. Anna was not a
temptress, she had a least a couple of children by the time of the war. Peggy loved Arnold.

Plus, Abe wasn't a freaking mass murderer.

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Wait, so Andre was delusional after all? How disappointing! Did he just tell Abigail about his plans to turn Arnold? Dude! Good thing he's so gorgeous (and played by JJ Feild), otherwise I'd give up on him completely.

 

Benedict Arnold is all kinds of creepy and gross. I just can't with him. I mean, Peggy is far from a favorite, she was only half tolerable in Andre's presence, but the way the character has been treated in the last couple of episodes... she deserved better than that. The actress continues to not impress though. Can we trade her for Philomena, please? Now she was awesome.

 

Robert Rogers seems to be the only one to keep his smarts around him and he has a plan against my fave! You go, Robert!

 

The rest was meh.

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Damn - surprised that they left the finale with such a cliffhanger. Honestly, the ratings since the Monday move have declined significantly, so I didn't expect such a blatant cliffhanger for the show. Expected the final scene to be Washington et all congratulating themselves on winning a decisive and important battle in the scheme of Patriot victory. Hmm..makes me wonder and think that maybe AMC decided to renew for a season 3 anyway. Excellent news, if I am right. (I hope I am)...

 

 

...What bothered me was the fact that Washington ran this long game against Lee, allowing those troops to essentially be overwhelmed by numbers, and in turn, many men died as a result. So all I saw was the fact that Washington sacrificed the lives of many men, solely to set up a situation to prove Lee wrong. Terrible. Just terrible. You know what would be better? Arrest Lee, throw him in "gaol" way before this on "trumped up charges". and save the lives of the many men who you need to fight your battle. Did not like that. Pathetic (but not surprising for humanity in general).

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure that the cliff hanger-y nature of the ending really means anything given that the show finishes filming a couple months before the first episode airs? 

 

I thought the Peggy/Arnold/Andre was just awful, like unhistorically, melodramatically dreadful. The sex scene was gross. The braid, I’m assuming, unintentionally comic. I didn’t exactly laugh, but kinda threw up in my mouth a bit. Andre, in his cups, blathering to Abigail was sort of pathetic. They were all just so punchable this episode. (Well, not Abigail, but even she should’ve run for the hills with Akinbode and never looked back.)

 

The Ben and Washington was too predictable, and I'm still not sure what was going on with them for those estranged episodes. Still, I was glad to see them back in good standing with each other again, even though capped by yet another profession of faith by Ben in the integrity of the ring, while Abe gets his ass handed to him. Eyeroll.

 

As far as the obligatory finale battle, at least it was more of one than the Battle of Setauket. It’s a good point, HalcyonDays, that you make, about them showing the sacrifice, and sacrificing, of the common soldier, while the officers move their chess pieces in relative safety.

 

We have scheming Mary again, as in the last finale, but this is the Mary that’s interesting. Perhaps, after that scene between the 3 in the bedroom, we are finally done with Abe/Anna together. Then, again, I've typed that out in hope at least three times before on these boards.

 

So Richard knows Abe is spying, and he can likely guess who else is involved. Mary knows. Anna is conflicted. Oh, Ben, what you don't know is gonna get you, or somebody really high up, or a bunch of somebodies, killed someday. And now Rogers...

 

They did surprise me with him at the end, I’m embarrassed to admit. We’ve seen so little of him this year, that I’d thought we’d seen the last of him. So he’s gonna school Abe in order to stick it to Andre? The way they exited the shot by pulling skyward from the spy cave was also comic to me, and in keeping with the cartoonish delight of Rogers in his game.

 

The battle song was, as usual, great. The music and casting department of this show are just about the best things the show has going for it. The ensemble of actors are almost entirely perfection. How I wish they were allowed to deliver more of the true stories…which are interesting and tense and real. But these writers are under the impression that they can do better.

 

eta: Ugh, I sound so negative. I don’t really mean to be, but the second half of this season made me cranky. I really do hope to see a third, but I’m going to have to adjust my expectations some. Again.

Edited by Kabota
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This show, man. I want to love it but it does everything it can to prevent me from doing so. This episode made so little sense to me, and I thought showed the pacing problems the show has had throughout. The events of this episode should have happened at the start of this season and set off an exciting chain of events - instead we marked time seemingly forever as Abe languished in prison and Washington acted like a dolt. The "twist" that in fact Washington was playing a long con to expose Lee was completely unearned and that plot should have spanned one or two episodes - not ten. And as he smirked about how he had set the whole thing up so he could get rid of Lee without exposing him as a traitor, all I thought was, and what about all those guys who got killed in the battlefield so you could execute this dumb plan? 

 

And the Arnold/Peggy thing...setting aside historical inaccuracies, I thought it was really clumsy, ham-fisted writing to have Arnold yelling about how it's finally his chance to get what he deserves. A little pat psychologizing about motives and stymied ambition and grandiose narcissism and how he sees Peggy as a desirable possession. The whole thing was silly, and it just showed me how little I'd bought into the Peggy/Andre relationship, because I just didn't care about any of it.

 

I think the only bit I liked was Mary turning into Lady MacBeth. I would like to think that, if the show is renewed, this finale set them up for some exciting moves (and maybe, I don't know, SOME SPYING) next season, but I've been disappointed before.

Edited by stanleyk

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Goddammit, Abe. I liked Easton.

 

Is it really a cliffhanger if you don't care if Abe lives or dies?

 

LOVED Anna's bewilderment when Mary launched her plan to kill the messenger. She's hardcore and totally right about Abe being sloppy.

 

Thomas is seriously adorable. And now he speaks! The hide and seek with Abe was so cute.

 

Ben- just as dreamy as ever. If this is the end of the show (and I really hope it isn't) at least it ended on a high note for him. Charles Lee is out, Bradford is out and he finally got to hit him, he identified the other assassin, Washington is back on board with him (he called him Benjamin!), Caleb is okay......it's all good.

 

War is really violent. You're basically lined up waiting to die. I wouldn't last a minute.

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The events of this episode should have happened at the start of this season and set off an exciting chain of events - instead we marked time seemingly forever as Abe languished in prison and Washington acted like a dolt. The "twist" that in fact Washington was playing a long con to expose Lee was completely unearned and that plot should have spanned one or two episodes - not ten.

 

 

stanleyk, I was thinking along the same lines. These last two episodes should have occurred back around 6 and 7.

 

 

Ben- just as dreamy as ever. If this is the end of the show (and I really hope it isn't) at least it ended on a high note for him. Charles Lee is out, Bradford is out and he finally got to hit him, he identified the other assassin, Washington is back on board with him (he called him Benjamin!), Caleb is okay......it's all good.

 

 

iboatedhere, I'll try to keep this focus.

Edited by Kabota

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I just laughed my ass off while Peggy was doing her pre-wifely duty for Arnold, all whilst holding the braid.

 

Me too!!  And I am totally distracted by her forehead. Unbelieveably high and the wig starts in the middle of her head.  You could land a plane up there. 

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And the Arnold/Peggy thing...setting aside historical inaccuracies, I thought it was really clumsy, ham-fisted writing to have Arnold yelling about how it's finally his chance to get what he deserves. A little pat psychologizing about motives and stymied ambition and grandiose narcissism and how he sees Peggy as a desirable possession.

 

I'll be honest - I felt sorry for her. When she tells Arnold she doesn't want to get married yet, and he starts getting angry and yelling at her, that bothered and worried me. All I could think was "potential abusive husband". Seriously. And I don't get Arnold's impatience. I get his desire for wealth and status, but his actions in terms of throwing himself at Peggy are creepy as hell.

 

And as he smirked about how he had set the whole thing up so he could get rid of Lee without exposing him as a traitor, all I thought was, and what about all those guys who got killed in the battlefield so you could execute this dumb plan?

 

Terrible, eh? On one hand, those men are brave as hell. On the other, they are pure 'cannon fodder.' If this is how real war was (I think they probably tried to be somewhat accurate), then these are the worst war tacticians I have ever seen. The word stealth obviously was not a word these people knew of. Out in the open, with no cover, walking up and just waiting to be fired on. No one thought to charge, or fight with their bayonets (except Simcoe of course) or hide in the woods and do a surprise attack. What a waste of bodies.

 

It gives you a sense of why in the American Civil War, you'd have 25,000 people dead in a few hours in just one battle.

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I thought the Peggy/Arnold/Andre was just awful, like unhistorically, melodramatically dreadful. The sex scene was gross. The braid, I’m assuming, unintentionally comic. I didn’t exactly laugh, but kinda threw up in my mouth a bit. Andre, in his cups, blathering to Abigail was sort of pathetic. They were all just so punchable this episode. (Well, not Abigail, but even she should’ve run for the hills with Akinbode and never looked back.)

 

It probably wasn't the appropriate reaction, but I just laughed my ass off while Peggy was doing her pre-wifely duty for Arnold, all whilst holding the braid. I believe, aside from the sex, Arnold was looking for a rich wife. Remember, he attacked Washington because he married wealth.

 

It really is very, very awful. I find Ksenia's acting choices are so off-putting that I can't engage with the character at all, what she is doing might be effective in a small role but the more I see of her, the more grating and distancing I find her. The writing for the triangle is just plain bad. I find her shallow even in what should be a heart-rending moment, (umm. maybe stop trying so hard to be heart-rending?) which comes off instead as facile, bathetic melodrama. I didn't laugh at the moment, but the tearful clutching of the braid did make me eye-roll to an uncomfortable degree. it was ridiculous. They are all ridiculous. I wanted to give weepy, loose-lipped drunk Andre a good swift kick. I'm guessing that the show-runner didn't want to give the traitor, Arnold a happy love story and has instead revised what is known about his attachment to Peggy to make him into a gawping fool who is insensible of the notion that the woman he seeks to marry can barely tolerate him. Of course, the mercy-fuck she threw at him has done nothing to clear things up. The sex scene was ugly to see and the whole story around Peggy is gross and boring. Please make it stop.

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Well, I'm done. I hope it's not renewed. The torture of knowing what they are doing to a story that could be told as it happened, okay, with a little dramatic license, has just become too much for me.

First of all, it was a complicated time and I could have actually had some sympathy for Arnold just wanting to win glorious battles. I mean, even GW had been a British soldier at some point in his life. And many rented themselves out to other countries. But when you ask me to believe that Benny became so smitten with Peggy through their correspondence that he proposed immediately and then insisted they marry immediately and then when she offers the wedding night before the wedding day... Where was his tenderness? His love? He banged her like a whore. Shouldn't he have expected her to be a virgin? But we can't ship Arnold if we ship André, I suppose.

And that is just the first in a long line of historical inaccuracies that I can no longer look beyond. I agree wholeheartedly with those who say GW took too long to smoke out Lee. I hadn't even thought about the cost of the men's lives. I'm sure it didn't happen that way. The timing of it all-needing to kick Ben out of the fold, the imprisonment of Abe and Hewlett. It served no purpose that telling the real story wouldn't have done better. They were a successful spy ring, for crimeny sake!

And now we have the total emasculation of Abe. Such a bad spy that his wife has to tell him how to do it the right way. Anna is right: You don't kill people in cold blood! At that point in time, there were rules. And yes, it looks ridiculous to march onto a field just yards from the enemy and shoot, but that is what you did. Not lurk behind a tree to shoot a man in cold blood.

I don't even care about Rogers and how he beat Abe up just to save him. Rogers is joining the ring? Nope. Nuh-uh. No way.

You can see how this could have been a good show. It's so incredibly sad that it never will be.

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Arnold & Peggy was just sad -- & revolting. I felt for Andre, but he made the bed for Peggy & now they both have to deal with her laying in it. As Arnold is a traitor & whatever the reality may be, I'm not sorry to see life portrayed not as a fairy tale for Arnold. If the creators allowed themselves a bit of wish fulfillment with this show, I'm not going to hold it against them. I made the choice to watch it.

Abe's callousness appalled me & his behavior was interesting to contrast with that of Hewlett -- who endured a very similar treatment.

 

Love sneaks up on you sometimes -- especially when you are so wrapped up in someone you should not be, at least anymore. Loved Lind's portrayal of Anna's lightbulb moment regarding "Edmund."

 

I'm glad we got to see the start of wins for the US in TURN-verse, just in the event the show is not renewed. To that point, loved Washington & "Benjamin." What we have will stay on my DVR -- for at least a good while -- no matter what happens & I'm glad for what we got. I hope for the best for the actors, crew & fans like me.  

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Me too!!  And I am totally distracted by her forehead. Unbelieveably high and the wig starts in the middle of her head.  You could land a plane up there.

Plus it is so botoxed it doesn't move. The whole scene of Peggy telling Arnold that the custom in Philly is to fuck like ferrets before marriage was laughable.

In reality, Charles Lee was incompetent and lily livered at Monmouth not treasonous. He didn't want the command at first but when it was then offered to Lafayette, his feathers got ruffled and he took it. Washington was mild to him as portrayed on the show. Washington tried always to be a gentleman and hold his temper in check, but when he couldn't it was described as "volcanic."

Edited by HalcyonDays · Reason: Added spoiler tags for the real life history.

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I realize it was for budgetary reasons, but I thought it was funny that even though he commands a unit of Dragoons, Tallmadge was the only one on a horse.

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Well, at least Ben got out there to fight. Andre sat up on the hill. I think that was a good shot to tell us how this plays out. Arnold. Ugh. It's not so much traitor, as hey, you take him, we don't need him. What a jerk.

 

I really enjoyed the finale. I don't really need historical accuracy. Caleb blasting Englishmen? Sure, fine with me. I was entertained. "Hey Abe, just kill the messenger, we like the other guy, also it's stupid to kill the guy who got you out of prison, since we can use his rank in the future." Strategy, no?

 

I like that Ben checked '355' to Washington too. That was cool.

 

The show is a show. It's playing fast and loose. That's what shows do. If it comes back, I'll watch it. 

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Me too!!  And I am totally distracted by her forehead. Unbelieveably high and the wig starts in the middle of her head.  You could land a plane up there.

 

Same here, but not because of the unfortunate hairline, but because the forehead won't move no matter what. I understand actresses get a lot of pressure about beauty and youthful looks, but how old can she be? Probably not even 30 yet. Babies can crease their foreheads, for fuck's sake! It only adds to her mediocre performance.

 

I'll be honest - I felt sorry for her. When she tells Arnold she doesn't want to get married yet, and he starts getting angry and yelling at her, that bothered and worried me. All I could think was "potential abusive husband". Seriously. And I don't get Arnold's impatience. I get his desire for wealth and status, but his actions in terms of throwing himself at Peggy are creepy as hell.

 

I felt sorry for her too. Arnold is such an awful boorish creep!

 

However, I also have to agree that grabbing on to Andre's braid during the sex was far too much. I think the writers should have trusted the audience more. Ksenia Solo might not be as good as her counterparts, but she's by no means terrible (just miscast) and her acting already told us, what she was feeling and thinking about.

 

The braid could have made an appearance if necessary, perhaps with Peggy alone in her room, but as it was, it felt like they were desecrating The Braid. /jk

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I love Hewlett, I really do, he's probably the only decent person in the entire show, though I am partial to Simcoe's deranged lunacy. Other than that, this series has become laughably clich and disturbing at times. The female characters drive me absolutely bonkers, but most of the male characters aren't far behind. The two separate love triangles they've establish (Andre, Arnold, Peggy) and (Hewlett, Simcoe, Anna) are in turn really, really creepy and absurd.

I mean, I could go on for hours on the failings of the writing of the women in this show, but it%u2019s a symptom of a greater problem, the writing is no good.

Look at all that build up for Simcoe VS Hewlett, they only had the barest interaction in the finale before that was dropped quicker than a hot potato. A whole season worth of building up to that pressure cooker of a situation and it ends up going NOWHERE.

The whole rapey overtones of the entire show have finally hit the ceiling for me with that dreadful Arnold/Peggy scene. I agree with most of you guys, it was either laughable, or disgusting, most likely both. I will admit to be stunned at the grotesqueness of it and then laughing at the braid quip.

And lets not let Simcoe off the hook. His whole turn around from his creepy stalker ways to dedicated love for Anna is creepy as fuck. His whole line several episodes back about his 'vengeful lust,' acting like it didn%u2019t exist or that Anna should in no way be threatened by him was a stark departure from his behavior and comments in season one (over a barrel? Like seriously%u2026). And the scene where the Ranger is going to sexually assault Anna, fifty shades of unnecessary, anyone?

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I realize it was for budgetary reasons, but I thought it was funny that even though he commands a unit of Dragoons, Tallmadge was the only one on a horse.

 

I rewatched it last night and there were a couple in the background.

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Well, we finally got some actual story, after all the thrashing about in bedsheets and navel-gazing.

 

I appreciated the military battle scenes. I distantly remember reading that the red coats were accustomed to orderly, gentlemanly warfare and would line up like toy soldiers, exposing themselves to the enemy's more aggressive tactics. Having more horses and mounted cavalry later changed things for everybody. We saw both sides get mowed down in this battle. I wonder if the hand-held cannon was a restored antique or a fake.

 

When one can clearly see the glue holding a wig onto an actress' Botoxed forehead, it's a problem.

 

Did Abe and Anna really meet in the basement of his burned-out home? Because all of that striding about and banging open cellar doors in broad daylight makes no sense. 

 

Arnold is coming off like a comic buffoon. Every time I see his big ol' slab of a chin, I am reminded of a cartoon character called Duddly Do-Right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_Do-Right

 

If the show is not renewed, I'll miss Andre, Simcoe and Hewlett.

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And the scene where the Ranger is going to sexually assault Anna, fifty shades of unnecessary, anyone?

Unfortunately, it was a daily threat. Not just to Anna, but all women. Woodhull begged Tallmadge to liberate Setauket and Long Island from the British soldiers for this reason. A woman wouldn't dare walk alone. And then they were quartered in everyone's houses. Of course the show played it out for dramatic purposes.

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I finally got the ebook from the library after requesting they buy it three times. I now understand all the postings about historical accuracy. I can do without love triangles; give me spies! I was proud of Washington telling Lee, "To the rear, suh!" I know he was mostly no drama but at times, this feels good. I agree with everyone's posts about Peggy's fivehead, it's distracting.

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Ok, you all have convinced me that watching the final episode would be a waste of a good hour.  If it comes back next year maybe they can start with a fresh perspective.  Or not.

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I literally shouted at Abigail, Akinbode, and Cicero: Go! Go to Canada now! Get out of this show while you can!

 

No matter how many times I see it (and know how historically accurate it is, and how long it took to change), the sight of soldiers lining up opposite each other on a battlefield, standing patiently to be cut down, never ceases to chill me.

 

I was wondering why Peggy was playing hard to marry with Benedict?

 

In the context of the show, she considers herself already married to Andre, so she can't also marry Arnold. Apparently Bigamy=bad, adultery=fine & dandy.

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I didn't think the finale was a waste of an hour. I was entertained. 

 

In hindsight, I'm assuming the former King's messenger at the end want's some revenge against the crown and is going to help Abe.

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Oh show, I just can't with you anymore ..... even if there was a season three (doubtful) I don't think I'd be back unless you return to the form of the first five episodes from season two.

 

The only things I liked this episode involved the battle sequence, everything with Ben, Caleb, and Washington, and having Mary come over to Abe's side (even if she doesn't believe in the "cause") - everything else was a giant cluster.

 

Why did it take 20 episodes before we even heard the term "Culper Ring" and why did it take this long for Washington to get on board?  Everything should have been set up in season one, with Townsend coming on board at the beginning of this season.  This season could have been about vetting Abigail, following Townsend, and other spy things (heck make some up - just keep the focus on the spying).

 

Hate, HATE, the way the entire Andre-Shippen-Arnold story line unfolded; Shippen was a flirt and had an infatuation with Andre; she was intelligent and politically motivated; she was a bit vain and was overly concerned with material things; and by all accounts she cared for Arnold --- she did not sleep around.

 

Why are they making Abe a cold-blooded murderer?  He wasn't, nor was anyone in the Culper Ring.  Also, I'm amazed at how easily the spies are uncovered (how did Rogers manage to tie Brewster and Tallmadge to the ring) - it took over 125 years before the Culper Ring ever came to light -- that's how good they were at keeping themselves and their work secret.

 

Half the characters are superfluous and the show would have been better served leaving them out - better yet, they should have stuck with the original premises and kept the focus on Tallmadge (no offense to Jamie Bell who is doing his best with crappy material). 

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"A woman wouldn't dare walk alone. And then they were quartered in everyone's houses. Of course the show played it out for dramatic purposes." Tallykat

Yes, but of all the (few) accurate historical elements they've decided to keep, why that? I've watched 27 Historical drama serials/movies/mini series in the last year, and only two neglected to throw in a rape element. If it was used narratively well, I could give it a pass, but its not, its used like the boogie man in the woods to unnecessarily terrorize the female characters, and I'm just sick of seeing that throw away element used in such a loose fashion. I get it coming from Simcoe in the first season, okay element established, but then they turn it around and act like Anna's the one somehow erroring on Simcoe's honor with her assumptions. Amazingly, in that scene where she goes to his bedroom to ask him to rescue Hewlett, I did not feel sorry for Anna, but for Simcoe, for being 'so wrongly insulted.' Just saying, one element in a sea of maddening story telling, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

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What was the coin that Rogers had?

A coin -- gold I assume -- Rogers was given in honor of his service in The Seven Years War. He brings it out to show Abe and Richard during his Setauket sojourn in season 1, episode 2. It is imprinted with something like, "He who conceals himself is detected."

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I REALLY don't like Abe.  I was appalled that he planned to kill poor sweet Hewlett.  I am sort of dismayed that this show has made me root for the "bad guys" instead of the gumps who somehow won our independence for us.  And I think Simcoe needs to forget about Anna.  If he got together with Mary, he would be unstoppable.   

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 I REALLY don't like Abe

 

You know, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I've always had my reservations about the character, but this season -- the 2nd half in particular -- has convinced me that there is nothing to like or root for about Abe. He's dull and unlikable, and his "spying" skills, of course, are god-awful. 0 redeeming factor, IMO, except the adorable kid that he's produced with Mary.

 

That said, the finale kept me engaged. Caleb was all kinds of wonderful, it was great to see Ben back in Washington's good graces, enjoyed LadyMacbeth!Mary, Anna's feelings for Hewlett were palpable, Washington looked reasonably charismatic on the battlefield, it was good to see Simcoe and Rogers be their usual crazy selves, Akimbode and Abigail's scene together was heartwarming, and I didn't mind Papa Woodhull (as a matter of fact, I find him far more interesting than Abe -- there, I said it). 

 

If TPTB decide to take artistic license, anyway, they might as well kill off Abe and then just let the rest of the cast go about the spying business. I will definitely watch a show about Ben/Caleb vs. Andre. If that's the case, I'd say bring on season 3!

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Abe hasn't been the best spy for sure. He did pass the knife to Anna and helped killed off the redcoats who uncovered them. They shouldn't have been found out in the first place, but still. Abe was also correct in staying in prison to keep his cover as a double agent, and passed on the information about Townsend. He's not James Bond for sure. It's easy to pile on. Had Abe emerged as some master spy wouldn't have been earned either. I don't know if it's the way the show was put forth or if TPTBs were planning out a longer 4-5 season story or what, but Abe's kind of a bag. Becoming a master spy by now doesn't work either. 

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So now I guess the question is how is Abigail going to get the info about Benedict Arnold to the Culper ring?  She can't use her son anymore, so how else or why else, would she contact Anna.

 

Mary definitely has improved as a character and to some extent Anna has too, especially since she realized that she cares  very deeply for Hewlett.  Abe is a definitely a poor spy, and frankly I thought they really botched showing us how Townsend came into the fold.  It was almost all off camera, with mostly a 'tell us' by the father.  And agree that they should just get rid of Woodhull Sr..

 

I'd love to have the show focus more on Ben and Caleb.  The whole bit with Washington demoting Lee after the battle and then informing Ben that he knew Lee was a traitor from Abigail's note, even though he bashed Ben about it at the time and totally seemed to be pushing Ben away, seemed almost like a poorly thought out ret-con. 

 

Amazing that war back then was almost "gentlemenly" with lines of troops neatly marching in and out and no pursuit.

 

Andre seemed to have aged 10 years without his braid.  Seriously, he looked a lot older in this episode than before.

 

I had hoped that when BA rescued the Shippens, it would have been the start of showing how Peggy came to really care for, and ultimately love BA.  But the way they portrayed this in the show, she seems to be almost victimized.

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This article is a spot-on postmortem, so are the fixes for the most glaring narrative failings of TURN. Though I don't believe it can be fixed this late in the game, even if TURN somehow survives for another season.

I was a fan and I do love the cast to a person. S2 E6 was it for me though. I thought every scene between Simcoe and Anna was so badly done, badly written. None of those lines made a whit of sense coming from those characters. It ruined the character of Anna for me. She was the cleverest person in the room with her cool Scheherazade thing with the mad Simcoe. I loved those scenes between Roukin and Lind. But her uncharacteristic hissy-fit in front of him ended that great dynamic. Bummer!

I don't like love-sick Andre. I liked the cagey, rakish Andre of S1, with the end-runs on Lee and Rogers, the hand jobs and hot sex with the actress, and gentlemen's parties.

I don't like Hewlett in love. I ADORED the impeccable, droll, clueless, yet surprisingly brave Hewlett of S1. I love Burn Gorman!

I never liked Abe in love. In fact, I never liked Abe. I do really like Jamie Bell. I just feel the character of Abe was poorly conceived.

Season 2 certainly had more action, but it was more hysterical than historical, an Assassin's Creed III riff on the Culper Ring. I just can't get into this freaky, alternate-universe American Revolution.

Edited by JemiW

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I like the Peggy Shippen character.  I realise that her thing with Major Andre is historically inaccurate, but this is a TV show.  I can't understand why she has been bullied into marrying Arnold.  She says that she can't marry until her oldest sister is married.  He starts spouting off about what he "deserves" and how he needs to marry into a prominent Philadelphia family to advance his career.  Well, why not marry the oldest sister then if he was so eager to marry just for power?  I agree with above comments that he seemed very abusive.

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Okay, so, in all the wilderness that was Long Island in the 1770s, in a theatre of war that ranged up and down the East Coast and to the western border, Roger Rogers just HAPPENS to be standing by at the very MOMENT Abe makes his move against the messenger?    Uh huh.   Pity they didn't have Rogers twirl his mustache as well.

 

I agree with everyone above who said they dislike Abe.   And yes, it's a shame the reviled enemy is more charismatic than any of the Americans.   Go, lobsters!  

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Season 2 certainly had more action, but it was more hysterical than historical, an Assassin's Creed III riff on the Culper Ring. I just can't get into this freaky, alternate-universe American Revolution.

 

I don't mind that. More the slow pacing. If you're gonna make alternate history at least make it more engaging.

Edited by ulkis

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I'll be honest - I felt sorry for her. When she tells Arnold she doesn't want to get married yet, and he starts getting angry and yelling at her, that bothered and worried me. All I could think was "potential abusive husband". Seriously. And I don't get Arnold's impatience. I get his desire for wealth and status, but his actions in terms of throwing himself at Peggy are creepy as hell.

 

 

Terrible, eh? On one hand, those men are brave as hell. On the other, they are pure 'cannon fodder.' If this is how real war was (I think they probably tried to be somewhat accurate), then these are the worst war tacticians I have ever seen. The word stealth obviously was not a word these people knew of. Out in the open, with no cover, walking up and just waiting to be fired on. No one thought to charge, or fight with their bayonets (except Simcoe of course) or hide in the woods and do a surprise attack. What a waste of bodies.

 

It gives you a sense of why in the American Civil War, you'd have 25,000 people dead in a few hours in just one battle.

The ideal in most battles that after you wilted down the size and moral through massed musket fire on side would break and run away to be picked off by the cavalry. If the battalion was not massed because of the inaccuracy of the weapons most shots from cover would not hit anything. Unlike TV/movies where they show a lead character aim and someone fall when he gets a hit the fire order was to level, not to aim your muskets and just fire into the enemy mass.

 

The light battalions like Simcoe lead and rifle armed men where the special forces and snipers of that era.

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I didn't know "God save the King" had the same melody as "America",  And I like Abe.  Yes he is young and impulsive but that is normal.  And look at the father he has. 

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