S05.E09: The Dance of Dragons

[Constantinople]

and boobs. Don't forget the required boob time.

Hey!

I liked it when Mace broke into song.

[Philbert]

 

Stannis: chooses to sacrifice his daughter for the "greater good." I put greater good in parenthesis because his motive is purely driven by his/Mel's visions and how they must come to pass.

 

For me, this is the defining question about Stannis-did he burn Shireen merely to become King, or did he sacrifice the most treasured thing in his life to stop the White Walkers from overrunning the Kingdom. So, was Melisandre right all along and is he the "Chosen One" or did she get this one completely wrong (or worse, she's been lying this whole time) and his horrific sacrifice was for nothing? I assume they'll deal with this in season six.

[benteen]

 

 

But do we know that before the next book is out? Does Shireen actually need to be with the army, or is it enough to torch her at the Wall?

I'm not saying your wrong, I just don't remember the details in the last published books, and therefore how much room this leaves to burn Shireen.

 

From Melisandre's perspective, Asha has Usurpersblood, not Kingsblood.

Would Usurpersblood be good enough?

 

If she wants to burn Wildlings who declare themselves King Beyond the Wall and their children, why not?  It seems like anyone who declares themselves to be a king automatically has King's blood to Melisandre.

[Constantinople]

I find it hugely problematic that Daenerys's troops fight for her. Her big idea is that even though she has only superficial knowledge of Westeros, she deserves to fly dragons, land thousands of mercenaries, and bring insane Drothakies in to "crush the wheel" because she presumes that she is better than the rest. Why? Because she abhors slavery? Pretty much all of Westeros was there a thousand years ago. She speaks platitudes about peace and different ways when she possesses medieval nukes. Good leaders are followed because they have good ideas - like Jon, and Ned, and even Robert Baratheon at a time.

The Night's Watch don't seem to be following Jon because he has good ideas. They seem to be following him because they're a military organization and he's their commander. Jon himself knew they wouldn't like the idea of rescuing the Wildlings from Hardhome. They followed "Hardhome" orders, but they weren't nutty about, ranging from longstanding loyalists (Dolorous Edd) to longstanding antagonists (Alisair Thorne).

As for Ned, we were told this, such as when Robb is talking to Talissa about Ned, but we were rarely shown. Most of Ned's screen/book time was spent in King's Landing, where he was adrift and frequently short of good ideas.

I'm not sure Robert Baratheon ever had an idea that didn't involve screwing, drinking or beating the ever living shit out of someone.

[WearyTraveler]

Edited to change your to you're.

 

And some of us love you for it!

 

If she wants to burn Wildlings who declare themselves King Beyond the Wall and their children, why not?  It seems like anyone who declares themselves to be a king automatically has King's blood to Melisandre.

 

Well, she didn't burn Mance, though.  It was all a trick.  That said, I think that more than "King's" blood, she needs "Leader's" blood, or maybe Targaryen blood.  Edric had Baratheon blood, and we all know that the Baratheons have a pinch of Targ in there.

 

Also, when Melisandre burns other people she always says they are a sacrifice to R'hllor, too.  She just specifies that sacrificing someone with "King's" blood is much more effective.  R'hllor is either a very blood thirsty god, or Mel is wrong about this too.

[desmond]

Good leaders are followed because they have good ideas - like Jon, and Ned, and even Robert Baratheon at a time. 

Or because they have bannermen who have sworn them oaths of fealty, who in turn have knights of their households and levies of peasants to forcibly conscript in times of warfare. This is a brutal medieval world where "good ideas" are much less important than honor, blood, and feudal obligations. If you're lucky, you'll have a lord who believes in treating people fairly as well (like Ned). But I think we have to be careful about applying modern ideas of the social contract to a place like Westeros.

Edited June 10, 2015 by desmond

[meep.meep]

Many have mentioned the truncated travelling, where characters appear instantly in a new location. So, I'm wondering, did Littlefinger get lost on his way back to Winterfell? Where's he been all this time?

 

He's belly up at the bar with Gendry.

The same little out of the way bar that the White Walkers and horde of un-dead were hanging out in  for two seasons.

[Pogojoco]

OF COURSE, I realize the true reason was for D&D to give us the tense "will he or won't he" scene between Sir Alliser and Jon. In fact, Alliser has gotten a bit of a redemption arc this season, which has me wondering if he'll end up taking a knife for Jon by thwarting Olly's assassination attempt.

That scene is also hilarious because they make it seem like Thorne and Jon are somehow facing off, having a stare down. Of course, they can't actually see each other's faces from that distance (the Wall being 700 feet high and Jon standing however many feet out from it.) 

 

That stare down is the only reason they had Jon/Wildlings North of the Wall. 

[Avaleigh]

That scene is also hilarious because they make it seem like Thorne and Jon are somehow facing off, having a stare down. Of course, they can't actually see each other's faces from that distance (the Wall being 700 feet high and Jon standing however many feet out from it.) 

 

That stare down is the only reason they had Jon/Wildlings North of the Wall.

The truth of this is too funny.

[The Mormegil]

Many have mentioned the truncated travelling, where characters appear instantly in a new location. So, I'm wondering, did Littlefinger get lost on his way back to Winterfell? Where's he been all this time?

 

What makes you think he headed back to Winterfell? That's what he told Cersei but we saw him talking to Olena after that and given the events that transpired I'd have guessed LF was hanging round Kings Landing taking advantage of the Chaos. 

 

We'll probably next see him having supper with the High Sparrow offering to provide food to Kings Landing when the nasty Tyrells stop sending it.

[benteen]

The truth of this is too funny.

 

Heheh.  In fairness, Thorne's scowl has to be burned into Jon's memory by now so he could just imagine what he looked like.

[DigitalCount]

It's a possibility that Jon wanted to lend the whole thing some extra legitimacy. No, I didn't sneak in a bunch of wildlings through the back door, the Night's Watch as an institution brought them in above board through the front as an official mission. If he'd gone through Eastwatch there would have been some guys grumbling about him making unilateral decisions against the tradition of the Night's Watch, especially now with Aemon dead. But with the First Ranger welcoming him through the front door, there's not as much grounds for criticism.

[Constantinople]

You know how student drivers sometimes hit the gas instead of the brakes, or going into reverse rather than forward?

 

Bran is a student tree.  I think he accidentally put it into reverse and had the Old Gods dump a blizzard on top of Stannis rather than crisp, dry early winter weather.

 

So I blame Bran for Shireen.

[BlackberryJam]

Can we blame Bran for everything? I'm sure those idiot Sand Snakes are Bran's fault.

[GreyBunny]

It's a possibility that Jon wanted to lend the whole thing some extra legitimacy. No, I didn't sneak in a bunch of wildlings through the back door, the Night's Watch as an institution brought them in above board through the front as an official mission. If he'd gone through Eastwatch there would have been some guys grumbling about him making unilateral decisions against the tradition of the Night's Watch, especially now with Aemon dead. But with the First Ranger welcoming him through the front door, there's not as much grounds for criticism.

 

Jon could have told them that he'd land them at Eastwatch and hike in south of the wall when he returned.  There'd be no surprise. 

If I were a NWman and Jon told me they'd land north of the wall and walk in from the Haunted Forest it would make me skeptical that there was any real danger from the Others and I'd think that Jon was full of BS.  If there was such a huge danger then he'd want to get them out of zombie territory and behind the safety of the wall as fast as possible.

[that one guy]

 

I'm wondering, did Littlefinger get lost on his way back to Winterfell? Where's he been all this time?

I think its' safe to imaging he's up to no good. Specifically, he's raising an army in the Vale. The question is, why?

[SFoster21]

Hope the last show elucidates this point.

[DigitalCount]

Jon could have told them that he'd land them at Eastwatch and hike in south of the wall when he returned. There'd be no surprise.

If I were a NWman and Jon told me they'd land north of the wall and walk in from the Haunted Forest it would make me skeptical that there was any real danger from the Others and I'd think that Jon was full of BS. If there was such a huge danger then he'd want to get them out of zombie territory and behind the safety of the wall as fast as possible.

The surprise isn't the issue. The issue is showing everyone that they're all of one mind in this. Everyone knows how much Thorne hates Jon, so his acting in this manner is a show of good faith. It's for show, but it's absolutely crucial that everyone's on the same page here. This way they can focus on the enemy and not get bogged down in petty nonsense.

[GreyBunny]

Thorne could have just as easily shown his good faith at the front door of Castle Black. 

 

Jon, Tormund, and others arrive near CB.  Thorne rides up, steps forward, he and Jon stare at each other for a few seconds, Thorne steps aside and lets the Wildlings continue to the castle grounds.  Same thing, and there isn't he ridiculousness of Jon and Thorne seeing each others' faces from 700 feet away.
 

Edit:  As an aside, stillshimpy in the Unsullied Habitat had really good remarks about the nature of magic and the divine and human interpretation in the UH episode thread. (Jun 9 2015. 7:07 am).  I can't give SS a like in that thread so I'm giving SS a thumbs up in here.

Edited June 11, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Alapaki]

I'm wondering, did Littlefinger get lost on his way back to Winterfell? Where's he been all this time?

 

I think its' safe to imaging he's up to no good. Specifically, he's raising an army in the Vale. The question is, why?

 

 

Because Cersei was stupid enough to allow/tell him to.  

 

Littlefinger will wait for Stannis and Roose to beat the hell out of each other, then swoop in and defeat the remnant of whoever's left, under the guise of "rescuing" Sansa, the rightful Lady of Winterfell.

 

He will then propose marriage to Sansa (who has long since abandoned the notion that romantic love plays any role in the marriage decisions of royals) as a way to solidify the alliance between the Vale and the North.  He could also name himself King in the North with Sansa as his Queen.

 

At that point, there is no real practical way that "the Crown" (which at this point consists of the Lannisters and their tenuous alliance with the Tyrells) could march an army up through Westeros to depose them.  And, if they tried, they'd run the risk of the Tyrells turning cloak against them, which would ensure a Lannister defeat and put a Tyrell on the Iron Throne.  

 

I don't think the show has really done justice to just how colossally Cersei has fucked up her family's hold on the Iron Throne.  Indeed, that is one of the primary reasons that no one in her family is lifting a finger to help her.  She's less trouble for them where she is.

[Dev F]

Thorne could have just as easily shown his good faith at the front door of Castle Black. 

 

Jon, Tormund, and others arrive near CB.  Thorne rides up, steps forward, he and Jon stare at each other for a few seconds, Thorne steps aside and lets the Wildlings continue to the castle grounds.  Same thing, and there isn't he ridiculousness of Jon and Thorne seeing each others' faces from 700 feet away.

 

But that only works if Castle Black is the wildlings' final destination, and it isn't. In the episode as aired, we see them traveling through Castle Black and out the other side. If they didn't have to pass through it, they'd never need to set foot in it at all.

[Hecate7]

Maybe there's different ways to interpret the following

 

But from what I get, those touches between Dany and Jorah and Dany and Missandei mean some big big trouble. Also what better way to spread the disease then to have Dany spread it on her way to conquering Westeros.

 

 

That would be the perfect ending. I'd also like for him to get his throne but for it to ultimately be meaningless because who's going to follow a dreaded kinslayer? Full circle!

 

 

I would disagree that was definitely pure anger. Even if she did grab for the knife in self defense, he didn't have to attack her.

 

 

In the book, it's pure anger. She taunts him with that "giant of Lannister" thing and he loses it, and kills her. In the show, she sees it's him, and grabs the dagger.

 

That would hurt me worse than the actual stabbing. She sees my face, and instead of saying, "I had to, they made me, you know what he can be like," or, "I'm sorry--it was either you or me,"or even, "Thank God you're free--now can we flee to Pentos like I asked in the first place?" she grabs a dagger, assuming that what? I'm here to kill her? there was a moment of shock, and Shae could have filled it with anything. But reaching for the dagger meant that she had no excuses to give, no explanations, no mitigating factors--just, "I'm here as his mistress and you are the enemy." She could have put a finger to her lips and jerked her head privy-ward...Tyrion would have kept quiet. But the fact was that she was on Tywin's side, and always had been.

 

He could and should have gone right back down again, but he went over to her instead and tried to get the knife away.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Hecate7

[GreyBunny]

But that only works if Castle Black is the wildlings' final destination, and it isn't. In the episode as aired, we see them traveling through Castle Black and out the other side. If they didn't have to pass through it, they'd never need to set foot in it at all.

Why waste their time with Castle Black at all?  They could have come through the gates at Eastwatch, or made their way around the wall there instead of tromping 150 miles along the wall where the zombie horde is on their tails.  Having Jon show up at the North side of the Castle Black was just dumb.

[Pogojoco]

It makes sense in the books because Val finds Tormund out in the wilderness (oh how I wish she was on the show....) and the Wildlings have to use the gate/tunnel to get through. They aren't coming from Eastwatch, but rather from parts elsewhere. It actually doesn't make sense to have them come all the way to Castle Black at all- unless it's to man it. Show Jon talked about letting them settle the Gift, which is between Eastwatch and Castle Black. In the book, the various Wildlings that Stannis let through after they burn Mance ("Mance") live in Mole Town and Jon sends some to man various abandoned castles along the Wall. IIRC, there is one with just spearwives. 

 

The Eastwatch North/South thing isn't an issue because those people from Hardhome haven't come yet. I suppose we could argue/explain endlessly about why Show Jon would take them North rather than South- but I can almost guarantee the only reason is so they could have a stare down moment. It's pure drama. And I agree, Alastair Thorne is a great character. That actor (Owen Teale) is one of those British actors that shows up in a lot of places on TV.  

 

And the thing with Shae is that I think she never got over Tyrion marrying Sansa and decided to throw her lot in with what she saw as the power centre. At least that's how I read Book Shae. Show Shae had a relationship with Sansa, so it's a little less clear. 

[Hecate7]

In the books Shae could have cared less about Tyrion marrying Sansa. It makes the most sense for show Shae and book Shae both to have begun as Tywin's spy, because:

1) she was found in Tywin's camp and we only have Bronn's word for how that happened

2) neither book Shae nor show Shae were ever the slightest bit afraid of Tywin or of what he might do to her. That's completely bizarre considering her apparent rank, her relationship with Tyrion, and her perceptiveness in every other way. There's no reason for Shae to be so cavalier about Tywin unless she already has a good reason to know he won't hurt her.

3) Show!Shae can tell Tyrion's getting ready to dismiss her, yet she refuses Varys' diamonds and Tyrion's offer of a house. This is very strange behavior for a whore on Tyrion's payroll, even one who is in love with him. Unless of course she's already on someone else's payroll.

4) She didn't get on the boat.

[Holmbo]

But do we know that before the next book is out? Does Shireen actually need to be with the army, or is it enough to torch her at the Wall?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't remember the details in the last published books, and therefore how much room this leaves to burn Shireen.

Edited to change your to you're.

From Melisandre's perspective, Asha has Usurpersblood, not Kingsblood.

Would Usurpersblood be good enough?

That's a good point. He could send a raven to the wall telling them to burn his daughter.

Jon seemed to think Mel might want to burn Mance's baby in the book. Though I guess we don't know for sure that she does.

I'm hoping that all this different magic will turn out to be the same in the end so that the two main magic there is is blood magic and bringing people back from the dead in more or less alive stages.

[mac123x]

I hadn't thought of it before, but maybe Book!Mel doesn't consider Mance and his baby to have kings blood.  It would explain the Mance / Rattleshirt switcheroo, if she surmised that Mance would be more useful alive.  Jon's fear for Mance Jr. was probably unfounded, though understandable.

[Alapaki]

I hadn't thought of it before, but maybe Book!Mel doesn't consider Mance and his baby to have kings blood.  It would explain the Mance / Rattleshirt switcheroo, if she surmised that Mance would be more useful alive.  Jon's fear for Mance Jr. was probably unfounded, though understandable.

 

 

I can't remember, does Melisandre know about Jon's switcharoo with the babies?  If not, maybe that discovery is the impetus for sacrificing Shireen, who would be the only royal blood remaining available to her.

[Pogojoco]

I can't remember, does Melisandre know about Jon's switcharoo with the babies?  If not, maybe that discovery is the impetus for sacrificing Shireen, who would be the only royal blood remaining available to her.

Jon doesn't think she does, Val suspects that she does. He asks Val why Mel wouldn't have said anything and Val said it suited her not to. 

 

Pure speculation on my part- but perhaps the so-called Pink Letter (which states that Stannis is dead), which Selyse/Mel believe or at least believe Stannis is in a lot of trouble combined with Jon Snow getting stabbed makes them decide to burn the little girl. I bet Patchface bites it, too. 

Edited June 12, 2015 by Pogojoco

[Hecate7]

Well, I think that Drogon had taken care of plenty of the Sons of the Harpy with his fire, not to mention the ones that ran away as soon as they saw him burst through the fireball in the sky.

Also, some people might have called in re-inforcements to come to the arena, after the SotH attacked. I foresee more unsullied going in, breaking through the doors that the SotH locked and coming to the rescue. They don't even need to be called in. Once they saw the dragon and heard the terrified screams they would have rushed in, I believe.

Then there is the little issue of this being Dany's first flight. I don't think she's supposed to be able to control this weapon enough to use to everyone's advantage. She has never been on Drogon's back before, how is she supposed to invite people to join her? I'm sorry but thats just very Harry Potter. This is a savage beast that has been running free and unchecked. Dany doesn't have a manual, she needs to learn how to control and direct Drogon, and until she does, there's no guarantee that he will listen to her instead of just frying everything in sight.

Now, the scene is slightly different in the books, because Drogon doesn't come to save Dany, he comes because he smells the blood and he starts eating people. Dany has to face him down, and she rides him mainly to save the people in the stadium.

 

 

We don't know that, actually. He may have smelled the plan to poison Dany in the books. He may have come to help her and gotten distracted by the food smells. It might have just looked like he was attracted by the arena.

 

Drogon would have been killed, and once the dragon was dead harpies would have swarmed past his dead body. Because you know there aren't just harpies in Mereen. There are also harpies in Yunkai, Astapor, Qarth....wave upon wave of harpies would have kept coming until Drogon had no more breath left in him. And the sight of that creature lifeless would be more than I could have borne, and it would have been the end of Dany, and Jorah, and Missandei, and Tyrion, and Greyworm in his bed, and anyone else who ever sided with Danaerys. By leaving, Danaerys removed their target and the reason for her friends to fight and die for her. By removing Drogon, she saved her dragon.

 

And frankly dragons are more important than conquests or cities or politics. If she had allowed Drogon to die, Danaerys would have had no more magic, goodness, or motherhood in her. He is her largest responsibility, the only one nobody else can take care of for her.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Hecate7

[Elkins]

Avaleigh, I wish you'd been right about the show not going there.  :(
 
I agree with everyone who said it might have been better for the Daznak's Pit sequence to come before Shireen's sacrifice. I understand that maybe they thought it would be better to end with something "uplifting," but I think that even some of Dany's more enthusiastic fans probably still found it difficult to engage with her high fantasy business--far less feel 'uplifted' by it--after watching Kerry Ingram's astonishingly harrowing performance and hearing her pleas give way to screams of agony. That was awful. Seriously, I'm trying to think of anything else I've seen on television that has even come close to being that horrible, and I'm drawing a blank.
 
Now I'm hoping that grayscale is highly contagious once atomized, and that every last one of those assholes who stood there and watched that little girl burn got a good lungful of it. It would explain why the wildlings refuse to believe in dormant grayscale, right? Because they burn their dead. Yeah, I say it's time to get this plague on the road. Release the First Horseman on his white horse! Northern Vector: Go!
 

If Dani had paid money for the Unsullied, she'd be entitled to a refund.

 
Yeah, well. You get what you pay for. Maybe the ease with which they butchered the unarmed civilians of Astapor left them just a tad complacent.
 
(Sorry. I thought that "and now she robs the weapon shop with its own guns!!1!" business in ASOS was one of the most ridiculous things I'd ever read, and it appears that even now, so many years later, I'm still bitter over it.)

 

 

I think one of the worst things about Dany's flight was the way that her hair barely moved. When I think about how my hair flies when the windows are down in a car it was too ridiculous the way it basically stayed in place.

 

Yeah, they really needed to crank up the wind machine for that scene. The motionlessness of her hair and clothes was a major part of what made the CGI look "fake," IMO. I know they can't afford the best special effects, but I thought they really could have done more in that scene to help sell the special effects that they did have.

 

In contrast, just look how well they've done with some of the CGI-enhanced location work this season! Both Braavos and the Volantis Long Bridge felt utterly convincing as places, and what made them work so well wasn't just the expensive CGI, but also everything that was then done to enhance that illusion with fastidiously selected props, costumed extras, creative camera work, etc. There are plenty of low-cost, low-tech things you can do to help prop up your special effects. It really seems odd to me that they didn't even try plugging in a fan for Dany's flight sequence.

 

RE: Hizdahr and the Harpies:

 

I'm finding it hard to understand the insistence that Hizdahr must have been in league with them. Is it just because the book (unlike the show) made a bit of a Whodunnit out of the question, and in the show he's the only named Meereenese character we've got? Because the way I see it, from the Harpies' point of view, Show!Hizdahr would have been a collaborator. The son of a known liberal (seconding the love for Digital Count for 'Hizdad' here. Hee!), he served at the foreign conqueror's pleasure as the supplanted ruling class's representative on her sham of a "council." In that position, he tirelessly argued for compromises that would help pacify the city and thus strengthen her rule. He even undertook diplomatic missions for her -- missions designed to keep Meereen's once-allied city-states firmly under her yoke! Why would they ever consider someone like that an ally? Just because he occasionally defended one or two of the region's cultural traditions -- and not even the most important one: slavery -- to its foreign invader? That's supposed to be enough to put him in the good graces of an insurgency?

Sorry, I'm just not seeing it. If Hizdahr was really trying to support the insurgency by doing all that, then he has got to have been the Worst. Fifth. Columnist. Ever.  No, I think he was genuinely a moderate, and thus, from the Harpies' point of view, a filthy traitor. All things considered, he was probably lucky that all they did was stab him to death. Wartime collaborators have been known to come to far stickier ends when they're unfortunate enough to fall into the hands of the resistance.

[WearyTraveler]

We don't know that, actually. He may have smelled the plan to poison Dany in the books. He may have come to help her and gotten distracted by the food smells. It might have just looked like he was attracted by the arena.

 

Drogon would have been killed, and once the dragon was dead harpies would have swarmed past his dead body. Because you know there aren't just harpies in Mereen. There are also harpies in Yunkai, Astapor, Qarth....wave upon wave of harpies would have kept coming until Drogon had no more breath left in him. And the sight of that creature lifeless would be more than I could have borne, and it would have been the end of Dany, and Jorah, and Missandei, and Tyrion, and Greyworm in his bed, and anyone else who ever sided with Danaerys. By leaving, Danaerys removed their target and the reason for her friends to fight and die for her. By removing Drogon, she saved her dragon.

 

And frankly dragons are more important than conquests or cities or politics. If she had allowed Drogon to die, Danaerys would have had no more magic, goodness, or motherhood in her. He is her largest responsibility, the only one nobody else can take care of for her.

 

Not sure why you quoted me here on the "Dani didn't have many choices when it came to Drogon" comment because I have been agreeing with those who say that.  If you quoted me for the book reference, I remember it being very clear in the books that Drogon came drawn by the noise and the blood.  I'll dust off the chapter in my Kindle and search for the text, but, in the meantime, here's the summary from AWOIAF:

 

When the fighting pits are re-opened, Drogon appears above Daznak's Pit, drawn by the noise and smell of blood. Drogon descends into the pit and kills the boar that is present. He sets much of the arena ablaze once provoked, and causes chaos and carnage as the citizens flee and trample one another. An animal handler named Harghaz attacks Drogon with a long spear and comes close to slaying him. Daenerys, seeing her "child" in peril, runs to him just when Drogon kills Harghaz. After much difficulty, losing her hair and clothing after he bathes her in dragonfire, Daenerys manages to use a whip to berate and mount Drogon, then fly away on his back.

 

 

Whatever else these guys are, they are precise about the details of the written work.  That's the way I remember it happening.

 

_______________________________________

Moving on to other topics being discussed here.  As to why people suspect Hizdahr, it didn't sit well with me that he was so insistent on Dany trying the fried insects (crickets or locusts, I forget) and refused to have any himself.  That's when I started suspecting that he was fishy.  But, maybe that was misdirection.   I suppose we'll know for sure Martin's intent with the character once TWOW is published.

[Avaleigh]

Moving on to other topics being discussed here. As to why people suspect Hizdahr, it didn't sit well with me that he was so insistent on Dany trying the fried insects (crickets or locusts, I forget) and refused to have any himself. That's when I started suspecting that he was fishy. But, maybe that was misdirection. I suppose we'll know for sure Martin's intent with the character once TWOW is published.

That's what it was for me. That and the way that he hissed the order for Drogon to be killed. Show Hizdahr also doesn't come across as arrogant. They don't have the budget for it of course but he was a guy who was definitely hung up on appearance and seemed more superficial in general than Dany. He's the one who has the ornate throne as opposed to her simple one and Selmy seems to think that he's arrogant and vain not to mention that he seems to think he's a weak ruler. Edited June 13, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Elkins]

Thanks for reminding me about Book Hizdahr's characterization! Honestly, he made so little impression on me that I barely even remembered what he was like. I only remembered Dany's extreme disdain for him (he of the 'tepid kisses') and feeling that he was probably a red herring when it came to the whole Harpy mystery -- although I can't now remember what it was that made me think that way. I seem to remember feeling deeply suspicious of one of her other advisors, maybe the hard-line guy? Ugh, it wasn't even so long ago that I read that novel, and already I can't remember the details of those chapters. I liked them conceptually (which puts me in a minority, I know), but they really were ploddingly written IMO.

 

Anyway, in the show, he struck me as more of a liberal trust fund kid sorely in need of some privilege checks than as a leader of a resistance. An appeaser, not an infiltrator. I mean, I guess next week we could find out that he was up to his eyeballs in it; I'm just really not expecting it. I don't think the show has made the same sort of mystery out of who leads the Harpies than the book did -- nor, for that matter, even encouraged the viewer to believe that they have a single leader -- so to my mind there's nothing there that even requires further resolution. I sort of feel as if this is a book-only mystery that simply doesn't fit if overlaid on top of the show.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Elkins

[Unknown poster]

You can count me as one who assumed Hiadahr was going to be revealed as the Harpy, just because he was the only person who would make sense. In the books, I recall thinking it would be the Green Grace,(though it's been a few years, and I don't remember exactly why) maybe with Hizdahr as an accomplice. Since we haven't seen the GG, (though I suppose she could be cast next year) HZL seemed the only logical choice.

[Holmbo]

I'm kinda hoping it's not Hizdahr just cause it feels quiet cliche in this show that characters should always be plotting revenge and betrayal. Everyone is a Mirri maz dur. There's never people who chooses to adapt and work with the new situations.

[GreyBunny]

Book!Hizdar is a tool.  I suspected him too at least using the Harpies to his own advantage because his ideas would have compromised Dany's rule and increasingly shifted power over to him.  He was trying to chip at her from underneath. 

 

I really liked the show version, he's a much better person than his book counterpart, and even though he had a privileged perspective on certain things, in the face of adversity he was graceful under pressure.  I was sorry to see him killed.

Edited June 13, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Estelindis]

RE: Hizdahr and the Harpies:

 

I'm finding it hard to understand the insistence that Hizdahr must have been in league with them. Is it just because the book (unlike the show) made a bit of a Whodunnit out of the question, and in the show he's the only named Meereenese character we've got? Because the way I see it, from the Harpies' point of view, Show!Hizdahr would have been a collaborator. The son of a known liberal (seconding the love for Digital Count for 'Hizdad' here. Hee!), he served at the foreign conqueror's pleasure as the supplanted ruling class's representative on her sham of a "council." In that position, he tirelessly argued for compromises that would help pacify the city and thus strengthen her rule. He even undertook diplomatic missions for her -- missions designed to keep Meereen's once-allied city-states firmly under her yoke! Why would they ever consider someone like that an ally? Just because he occasionally defended one or two of the region's cultural traditions -- and not even the most important one: slavery -- to its foreign invader? That's supposed to be enough to put him in the good graces of an insurgency?

Sorry, I'm just not seeing it. If Hizdahr was really trying to support the insurgency by doing all that, then he has got to have been the Worst. Fifth. Columnist. Ever.  No, I think he was genuinely a moderate, and thus, from the Harpies' point of view, a filthy traitor. All things considered, he was probably lucky that all they did was stab him to death. Wartime collaborators have been known to come to far stickier ends when they're unfortunate enough to fall into the hands of the resistance.

 

Thank you for stating this so eloquently.  I agree completely.

[AnnaMayWong]

All that I can say is(taking a huge breath and exhaling, slowly) Jon and Aarya "BETTER" survive until the end of time.

Or because they have bannermen who have sworn them oaths of fealty, who in turn have knights of their households and levies of peasants to forcibly conscript in times of warfare. This is a brutal medieval world where "good ideas" are much less important than honor, blood, and feudal obligations. If you're lucky, you'll have a lord who believes in treating people fairly as well (like Ned). But I think we have to be careful about applying modern ideas of the social contract to a place like Westeros.

[AnnaMayWong]

Because Cersei was stupid enough to allow/tell him to.

Littlefinger will wait for Stannis and Roose to beat the hell out of each other, then swoop in and defeat the remnant of whoever's left, under the guise of "rescuing" Sansa, the rightful Lady of Winterfell.

He will then propose marriage to Sansa (who has long since abandoned the notion that romantic love plays any role in the marriage decisions of royals) as a way to solidify the alliance between the Vale and the North. He could also name himself King in the North with Sansa as his Queen.

At that point, there is no real practical way that "the Crown" (which at this point consists of the Lannisters and their tenuous alliance with the Tyrells) could march an army up through Westeros to depose them. And, if they tried, they'd run the risk of the Tyrells turning cloak against them, which would ensure a Lannister defeat and put a Tyrell on the Iron Throne.

I don't think the show has really done justice to just how colossally Cersei has fucked up her family's hold on the Iron Throne. Indeed, that is one of the primary reasons that no one in her family is lifting a finger to help her. trouble for them where she is.

If only spoiled, silly Sansa had not trotted off to blab EVERYTHING to Cersei, mayhap, this deluge of familial misery could have been averted.

And once attaining power, Cersei has thoroughly destroyed every single advantage gained through her family's harsh, manipulative, and cunning machinations.

Edited June 14, 2015 by BookElitist

[AnnaMayWong]

Also, this "medieval" setting HELPS aid in the showing of the poor and, oftentimes, offhanded sadistic treatment of females.

[SeanC]

If only spoiled, silly Sansa had not trotted off to blab EVERYTHING to Cersei, mayhap, this deluge of familial misery could have been averted.

Ned and Littlefinger had already given Cersei everything she needed to foil Ned's plan.  He was doomed.  The only thing Sansa going to Cersei changed was ensuring Sansa's own capture.

[AnnaMayWong]

Well, Ned was attempting to spirit away both Sansa and her sister. Upon, learning of the plan FROM Sansa, Cersei hastened her diabolical deeds. The " jailing " of Sansa was a strong impetus for her mother's actions(releasing Jaime, ...). So,yes, Ned's stupidly chivalrous actions led to his doom but Sansa was paddling right along with her own foolhardiness causing havoc.

[nksarmi]

So much of this story changes if Ned had - by any means needed - gotten Sansa and Arya out of KL before Robert B died.  Of course, the sweet fool should have taken all things into consideration (including Jamie's assault on him going unpunished) and upon finding out Robert was dead - lied is ass off and sworn loyalty to Geoffrey, first of his name, and offered to serve in the capacity his father wanted him to unless he preferred his grandfather.  I mean, I guess Ned couldn't foresee it, but there was one split second where a lie and a false oath would have saved his whole family. 

 

And I to this day cannot understand why Ned would have placed his faith in Littlefinger of all people.  Ned, dear boy, LF was so hung up on your wife that he challenged your older brother to a fight for her.  Do you believe - even for a second - that he would take any issue with you ending up dead?  Think man think!

 

Ned had already made Cersei an enemy when he told her that he knew the truth, but if he had made her think he would keep that secret rather than risk his daughter's life, he could have made sure she didn't see him as a threat and then he could have figured out what move would be best.  The Starks are like a thesis paper on what happens when you act too quickly with people you don't understand.

[WearyTraveler]

Ned's mistake was assuming people would be honorable.  It's sad that they are not.  And I feel it's a very jaded world when we support behaving like the bad guys in order to survive.

[Avaleigh]

I don't think it's behaving like a bad guy to keep your word and at least attempt to work with the twelve year old asshole when you promised your best friend that you would. Ned chose to not tell Robert the truth about Joffrey so why couldn't he at least attempt to see if he could do some good as Joffrey's Hand? If not, then he can resign and go back to where he's most needed. I don't see how that would have made him a bad guy. Not immediately plunging the realm into war in order put in a king hardly anybody wants seems like it would have been a better decision. If it turns into a situation where Joffrey needs to be removed then they can figure out what to do down the road. 

 

I think Ned's mistake was in his inability to work with people and compromise when it comes to these complicated situations. 

[WearyTraveler]

I don't think that's how Ned's mind works, though.  He believes in the right to rule by blood deeply.  This is why he told Robert that he should sit the Iron throne, instead of Ned, because "you had the better claim".  Moral choices are never easy when a situation is strained.

 

I think I would equate Ned's moral choice here with that of a person who is against the death penalty but suddenly finds himself in a situation where his brother's killer is going to be sentenced to death.  How strong is his moral conviction then?  Does speak on behalf of  his brother's killer asking the judge to give him a life sentence instead of the needle or does he let his brother's killer fry in an "eye for an eye" fashion?

 

Making the right moral choice is easy when the result will benefit us or when the alternative is worse.  But making the moral choice when we know it will cause us problems, when we know the road will be hard, or when the alternative is better for us; when the moral choice is the difficult choice, that's, IMO, what makes a good person.  Had he supported anybody but Stannis (or Dany, if he could get to her), he would have been a hypocrite, as low in the moral scale as any of the people whose game he didn't want to play.

 

He would have betrayed his conscience and himself and the lesson for his children would have been that it's ok to bend your moral code if upholding it becomes too difficult.  I don't think I would have liked Ned as much as I do if he had gone that way.

[Constantinople]

I'd also like to thank the show for giving me a literal nightmare last night. Surprisingly, it wasn't Shireen's off-screen screams that did it (I'd like to see an interview with the actress where she talks about how they prepped for that), but the god damn Harpy masks. Even more creepy Uncanny Valley than last week's zombies. [shudder]

 

Be prepared to see a lot more of those masks around Halloween.

 

 

I won't lie, I want one.

Be sure to tilt your head slowly to the side when you wear it.

It's much creepier that way.

[Umbelina]

I think its' safe to imaging he's up to no good. Specifically, he's raising an army in the Vale. The question is, why?

There are a couple of reasons for Littlefinger to raise an army.  Protecting the Vale and it's food from "winter" is a huge one, but I suspect after all the other idiots have killed each other and let the little people starve, burned them out, raped them, and letting those who didn't starve freeze to death, the throne should be easy pickings.  Who will be left?  Foreigners and Littlefinger with his army.

 

Ned's mistake was assuming people would be honorable.  It's sad that they are not.  And I feel it's a very jaded world when we support behaving like the bad guys in order to survive.

Ned's mistakes were many.  His biggest error was going to a completely different "world" and expecting them to behave as he would behave, instead of paying attention and learning their "rules."  Ned brought a baseball glove to a football game, he doesn't get to whine that it's his turn to bat.

[John Potts]

OK - HOW (other than plot contrivance) did Ramsay get in & out of Stannis' camp & burn their stores undetected!?

I wonder if Stannis/Selyse were meant to parallel Lord & Lady MacBeth - He agonised over decisions beforehand but owned them afterward: she was unconcerned beforehand, but fell apart afterward.

Was Mel dressing in black symbolic of her darker turn (not that she was all laughs & cuddles before burning Shireen) from her usual red?

On ‎08‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 3:02 AM, HerLadyship said:

Shireen was your heir, Stannis you idiot. She was also the last Baratheon after you. Heck of a dynasty you are fighting for!

That was (one of) my problem(s) with Stannis agreeing to it - I can see Melisandre burning Shireen against Stannis' orders, but I cannot see Stannis killing his only heir. Mel is only really worried about defeating The Great Other and isn't concerned with the State of the Seven Kingdoms afterward. Stannis wants to establish the (rightful) Baratheon succession which he can't do if he has no heirs.

Still, I can't believe people want the Boltons to win. Evidently, Stalin was right: "The death of one man [or girl] is a tragedy. The death of a million men? That's just a statistic." Roose and Ramsay are admitted rapists and murderers who regularly flay their enemies. Now I'd understand wanting neither to win, but in the evil stakes, the Boltons are way ahead of Stannis.

On ‎08‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 3:19 AM, Oscirus said:

Meryn was already hateable, no need to make him worse.

I guess they thought a guy who we've seen killing babies, ripping Sansa's clothes off and beating her might be too likeable if he wasn't also a paedophile (or at least, hebephile)?

On ‎08‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 3:19 AM, Oscirus said:

Doran. UM? um? WTF is going on with Doran? Are you going to bother writing a coherent storyline for that place?

Well, isn't meeting the in laws always a bit awkward... Did like Jamie using the Trystane's own words to protect Bronn, though. Doran was way too tolerant of Ellaria, who was apparently left to just go off and chat with Jamie (better hope she has learnt her lesson, or assassinating Jamie would bring about the war you're trying to avoid). Doran doesn't seem so much a mastermind as completely passive and incapable of controlling his family.

On ‎08‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 3:16 AM, nksarmi said:

I am going to assume as of right now that greyscale can't be transmitted in the early stages unless you touch an affected area otherwise Jorah would have never touched Dany.

It would make more sense if he was mad at Danny for dismissing him, blamed her for getting infected and was trying to infect her in turn. I don't suppose anyone has done a full epidemiological study of Greyscale, so in his situation I'd be super careful about touching somebody I supposedly love!

OK, the Unsullied may be brave, but they suck at tactics. Why didn't they choose to enter the centre of the arena when they could have stayed in corridor? Yes, one end was blocked, but it's much easier to defend an enclosed space than an open one.