One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Richard was a part of her upbringing before Lorelai took her away and while he wasn't a constant in her life as he became later on, he was part of her life.

Rory was 2 tops when she took her away, so I don't know that that counts for much.  And I don't think he was much of a part of her life between.  They went over their for holidays and Richard probably sat and read the paper.  He didn't really speak to her their first Friday night dinner beyond saying she was tall and asking how tall she was.  He even fell asleep during Lorelei and Emily's fight.  There wasn't anything to show that he was engaged in getting to know Rory at that point. It wasn't until after they played golf that he took an interest in her.  I'm not saying that as an insult to either of them. Related or not, it's very difficult to have a relationship with someone you rarely see.

[andromeda331]

On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 2:21 PM, glorie said:

Rory likes Luke. Rory knows, how much Luke loves Lorelai and how well he treats her mother. But Luke has no authority over Rory. When Max was engaged with Lorelai, he wanted to participate in decisions about Rory's life (he was also a teacher). And Rory liked Max too. She was looking forward to having Max as a stepfather. Luke on the other hand never interferes into decisions about Rory's life, he just helps and supports. They are good friends, but I don't see anything else.

I don't think Max was wanting to participate in decisions on Rory's life. I think he wanted to know what his role was going to be. Which if your about to be come a stepfather or stepmother, yes you know exactly what you can and can't do. How much or how little part you play in the child's life. Some stepfathers are extremely involved and co-parent, some aren't its completely on the actual parent. That's fine but they need to know that.

[Anela]

13 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I don't think Max was wanting to participate in decisions on Rory's life. I think he wanted to know what his role was going to be. Which if your about to be come a stepfather or stepmother, yes you know exactly what you can and can't do. How much or how little part you play in the child's life. Some stepfathers are extremely involved and co-parent, some aren't its completely on the actual parent. That's fine but they need to know that.

I think they should have asked Rory what she would be comfortable with, too. They were both understanding that it was weird for her, in the beginning. She was almost an adult when they were engaged, and she wasn't the type to get into any trouble (at the time). 

[elang4]

It was weird. Out of all the guys Lorelai dated, Luke was the only one she actually let into Rory's life. Maybe it was because they were friends beforehand. With Max, she did let him in but she freaked when he wanted a say in her life and freaked when she found out Rory was getting attached. Jason had nothing to do with Rory and Chris, well we all know Lorelai wasn't happy when Rory started having a better relationship with him. With Luke, it was different. She wanted to marry him when he went on that rant about making Rory go to her classes at Yale. It was always different with Luke.

[Anela]

49 minutes ago, elang4 said:

It was weird. Out of all the guys Lorelai dated, Luke was the only one she actually let into Rory's life. Maybe it was because they were friends beforehand. With Max, she did let him in but she freaked when he wanted a say in her life and freaked when she found out Rory was getting attached. Jason had nothing to do with Rory and Chris, well we all know Lorelai wasn't happy when Rory started having a better relationship with him. With Luke, it was different. She wanted to marry him when he went on that rant about making Rory go to her classes at Yale. It was always different with Luke.

I was going to say he was the only man that she was really vulnerable around, but then I remembered she was the one to go to Max's house, and talk about getting back together. She broke down in front of Chris when they broke up, but that was mostly it. She had that one moment when she spoke about having held him in her mind, all those years, so maybe she sabotaged other relationships because of him, and he flipped out on her, so I can understand why she wouldn't confide in him again. She flipped out about Max, then relaxed, just in time for him to dump her. She started to think about them getting together (she and Chris), when he got a job, and a car, only to be told that he got his life together for another woman. She relaxed and slept with him, when he said he'd left Sherry, and he made it sound like he was ready for them to be a family, only for the whole "Sherry is pregnant" thing to happen. They all seemed to let her down. Only Luke was there, when she really needed someone. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Anela

[FictionLover]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

Only Luke was there, when she really needed someone. 

Until April...

[shron17]

3 hours ago, Anela said:

I was going to say he was the only man that she was really vulnerable around, but then I remembered she was the one to go to Max's house, and talk about getting back together.

Luke was the only one she proposed to though.  Lorelai always let men pursue her rather than the other way around.  And really, she just told Max she missed him but had no idea how to fix things--that part had to come from him.

[Anela]

On 11/17/2017 at 0:47 PM, shron17 said:

Luke was the only one she proposed to though.  Lorelai always let men pursue her rather than the other way around.  And really, she just told Max she missed him but had no idea how to fix things--that part had to come from him.

But she sought him out - she didn't wait for him to call. 

On 11/17/2017 at 10:32 AM, FictionLover said:

Until April...

But he ended up still being there for her, after they broke up. He helped her to shop for a new car, then came up with something that allowed her to keep her jeep. He threw a graduation party for Rory. He was still in her life. Compared to the others, he showed her that he would still be there. 

[FictionLover]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

But she sought him out - she didn't wait for him to call. 

But he ended up still being there for her, after they broke up. He helped her to shop for a new car, then came up with something that allowed her to keep her jeep. He threw a graduation party for Rory. He was still in her life. Compared to the others, he showed her that he would still be there. 

True. And she was there for him in his custody battle for April. I just had a hard time with “all in Luke” running twice when things got tough. Don’t get me wrong, I’m an LL shipper but he was disappointing.

[elang4]

8 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

True. And she was there for him in his custody battle for April. I just had a hard time with “all in Luke” running twice when things got tough. Don’t get me wrong, I’m an LL shipper but he was disappointing.

To be fair though, he left the first time because Chris and Emily ganged up on him and then the last time, he found out Lorelai had slept with Chris. Can't really blame him for leaving then. I'm not saying he didn't do things wrong. He handled the April situation really wrong but the break ups, well I actually don't blame him for. Both times, he had legitimate reasons to leave. The first time, he felt humiliated and the second time he found out his fiancée had slept with someone else.

[Kohola3]

42 minutes ago, elang4 said:

Both times, he had legitimate reasons to leave. The first time, he felt humiliated and the second time he found out his fiancée had slept with someone else.

Yeah, he was no saint but no matter how much I was in love with someone, I don't think I'd hang around either.  There are only so many justifications you can deal with before you feel like a fool.  Especially the second one - and on the night after they had a fight.  Man, that was harsh.

[FictionLover]

2 hours ago, elang4 said:

To be fair though, he left the first time because Chris and Emily ganged up on him and then the last time, he found out Lorelai had slept with Chris. Can't really blame him for leaving then. I'm not saying he didn't do things wrong. He handled the April situation really wrong but the break ups, well I actually don't blame him for. Both times, he had legitimate reasons to leave. The first time, he felt humiliated and the second time he found out his fiancée had slept with someone else.

It always felt like he already left Lorelai emotionally after April came into his life. He even said he used April to push her away. What Lorelai did was terrible but I was already pissed at Luke. I am curious how ASP would have handled it had she returned. 

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, FictionLover said:

It always felt like he already left Lorelai emotionally after April came into his life. He even said he used April to push her away. What Lorelai did was terrible but I was already pissed at Luke. I am curious how ASP would have handled it had she returned. 

Too bad we couldn't have explored why Luke pushed Lorelai away instead of the April stuff. Why was he doing that? Was it insecurity? Worry that Lorelai would leave him? Was he scared? He lost both of his parents as a young age. Maybe he was scared of something happening to Lorelai. Maybe have it tie into Rachel. Her constant coming and going messed him up. Maybe it made him think he wasn't worth staying for. Or maybe added into his fears of people always leaving him. Did Lorelai and Luke ever really talk? About their relationship and what they really wanted? It doesn't seem like they ever did. Luke bought a house without telling Lorelai a house. A house he never mentioned before wanting and really didn't seem like a house Luke would want or Lorelai assuming she ever wanted to move. He brought up kids when he was telling her about the house he bought and then didn't after he made that "What about the kids" comment and Lorelai asked what he was talking about.  Lorelai said then kids would be great. But then they never talk about it again. Apparently ever. 

[Crs97]

I always figured that finding out a woman had his child and decided not to tell him because she didn't think he was worthy messed Luke up in so many ways.  He was so panicked about jumping through her hoops to create any sort of relationship with April, and she was awful.  I think his self esteem was shot.  Lorelei's parents treated him badly.  Lorelai demands they get married right away and because he needs a moment to process why she is upset and what she is asking for, she walks away and jumps into bed with Christopher. I think by the end he really did think the only thing he brought to their relationship was coffee.

[shron17]

13 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Too bad we couldn't have explored why Luke pushed Lorelai away instead of the April stuff.

I always thought season 6 was written to show that Luke was really just trying handle the April stuff in the best way he could, and was not pushing Lorelai away.  He made a lot of mistakes which partially accounted for Lorelai feeling as though she was being pushed away, and definitely had problems with low self esteem.  But Lorelai also contributed by: 1) expecting Luke's life to continue to revolve around her and Rory; and 2) misinterpreting Luke's intentions when his behavior didn't meet her expectations.  This also ties into Luke saying Lorelai "set up their lives" in AYITL Summer.  That line could be explaining the problems between them in season 6 were at least partially due to Lorelai setting up their lives in a way that didn't work for Luke at that point in time.

Edited November 20, 2017 by shron17

[Eva Marie]

I can never ever take Jess seriously as a character no matter how well he's written on the page these days because I can't stand the actor. His whole presence makes wanna slap him every second of screen-time. I've encountered few thespians that irritate me quite as much.

[andromeda331]

The episode where Rory's class is doing Romeo and Juliet weren't they suppose to do a different interpretation? I know Rory asks the same question to Paris who blows her off because they have the death scene which is classic and has no interest in doing a different interpretation. But isn't Rory right? Their teacher wanted them to do a different interpretation so shouldn't they have all gotten marked down because Paris made them do the traditional scene?   

[Guest]

Yes, @andromeda331.  That was Paris being Paris, and deciding she knew better than the instructions.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

On 11/20/2017 at 4:12 PM, Eva Marie said:

I can never ever take Jess seriously as a character no matter how well he's written on the page these days because I can't stand the actor. His whole presence makes wanna slap him every second of screen-time. I've encountered few thespians that irritate me quite as much.

I have nothing against the actor, I am sure Milo is a nice person in real life albeit dirty looking these days. Jess however, is one of the most overrated characters have experienced as part of fandoms. He was an unlikable jerk devoid of charm during his short lived run on the show. He was brought back later to condescend to Rory and pass judgment for which he is widely applauded for by the fandom. His turnabout happened offscreen and felt it was out of convenience rather than authentic. We see too little of the guy to really accurately assess him yet ......

His most defining moment for me would always be his behavior at Kyle's party. He was a kid  at the time but I never saw him express remorse for the way he behaved, he was his usual angry self before during and after. Hell, the show brushed it off as nothing. Such behaviors that society as a whole overlook, or hand wave is part and parcel of the rape culture. I am waiting for it is fiction replies. 

It is curious that he is the one character deified by this show targeted for females. How he is viewed by a majority of the fandom is really interesting even more interesting is the notion that he is too good for one of the show's protagonist whom haven't expressed a desire to be with him since she was 17 years. However, they are willing to accept her for him if she changes for him. Only then will she be worthy. It is a very popular sentiment if you've read these threads. 

[Kohola3]

2 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Hell, the show brushed it off as nothing. Such behaviors that society as a whole overlook, or hand wave is part and parcel of the rape culture.

Sadly, it is the "boys will be boys" bullshit that justifies these actions.  This country not only has a long way to go before it recognizes the rules of conduct around women but we've had a disgusting backslide in the past year.  I never thought I'd live to see what is going on today and what is condoned.

[MatildaMoody]

On 11/16/2017 at 3:10 AM, glorie said:

We could only speculate, who was close to Rory before the series started. Perhaps there was a male friend of Mia or an employee in the inn. Or perhaps a male teacher supported and encouraged Rory?

Yes, you are right. We are told, that Richard was not that much in Rory's life in the first 16 years, but neither were Chris or Luke.  Lorelai and Luke weren't that close in the past, she didn't even know about Rachel.  Lorelai and Rory were more or less just friendly customers for Luke in the past, I suppose.

 

I get that this discussion is really about how involved Luke was in Rory's life, butI wanted to point out that Luke was someone that Rory saw almost every day from the time she was a child. If we believe the initial premise, that Lorelai (and therefore Rory) was dependent upon Luke for coffee and most of their meals, Luke would have been a constant presence, whether Rory saw him as a father figure or not. When you factor in Luke as the guy who would agree to fix things around the house as a birthday present to Lorelai, no matter when that started, that includes even more time that Rory would have considered her a part of her just normal Stars Hollow life. I just finished a rewatch of "Teach Me Tonight" and I was struck by the way Luke asked Rory to tutor Jess. He knocked on the door to her room and was granted permission by both Lorelai and Rory without it being an issue. That was long before the writers started trying to retcon a fatherly relationship, but it spoke to the fact that Luke was a constant fixture for both of them. 

 

It's funny, I actually came here to comment on just how much I still hate the Jess character and got caught  up in the was Luke really a father figure to Rory debate. I know people don't buy the whole "she had chicken pox and would only eat mashed potatoes" argument, but it makes perfect sense to me. Lorelai and Rory had two constants when it came to food, Sookie and Luke. Since the show made it clear that they went to Sookie for special fancy food, their day to day nourishment came from Luke's diner. So, if Rory was sick and only wanted mashed potatoes, it makes sense that Lorelai would not only go to Luke for said mashed potatoes, but that he would also be aware of WHY he was making mashed potatoes specifically for Rory - because Lorelai and the whole town would have made sure he knew. 

 

But, back to my original reason: I HATE the Jess character. At first I thought it was because the writers felt the need to dumb Dean down (remember he was a well-read, pop-culturally aware kid from Chicago when we first met him). But, I realized the reason I truly HATE Jess is because of how much of an asshole he was. Here was this kid (granted he had a flake for a mother and a nonexistent dad), who was given an opportunity to start over with a person who truly cared about his well being (Luke). Compare him to someone like Paris whose parents were also nonexistent and how hard she worked to succeed (against all of the morons on the show trying to tell her there was something wrong with her for wanting to be the best at anything she set out to do). Then, there's Jess (who had so much more chemistry with Paris in a single scene than he ever had with Rory throughout his time on the show). 

 

Jess was the guy who knew how important Lorelai and the town in general were to Rory, but he couldn't be bothered to meet her halfway on any of that. I found it extremely creepy that he (when doing yard work for Lorelai) decided to go into Rory's room without permission. I also thought it was creepy the way he Shanghaied Rory's sleigh ride (Bracebridge Dinner) to basically tell her that Dean wasn't the right guy for her. In fact, when Rory complained that Jess didn't even know Dean, I screamed at the television, "He doesn't know you either!" He treated Rory as a concept and a prize to win. Then, after all of his meddling in her relationship with Dean, and getting her to date him, he still not only refused to accept the people she cared about (the town, her mom, etc.). Not only that, he spent a lot of time trying to convince her that she didn't need them (creepy isolation territory). And while I get we were supposed love his rebel nature because he had family issues, he was no Pacey Witter. The fact that he couldn't be bothered to explain to the girl he spent a year chasing that he was not doing well in school or that his dad showed up, told me that it wasn't about being in love with Rory. He had a crush on her, but there was very little actual respect for her in that relationship. 

[andromeda331]

22 minutes ago, MatildaMoody said:

 

I get that this discussion is really about how involved Luke was in Rory's life, butI wanted to point out that Luke was someone that Rory saw almost every day from the time she was a child. If we believe the initial premise, that Lorelai (and therefore Rory) was dependent upon Luke for coffee and most of their meals, Luke would have been a constant presence, whether Rory saw him as a father figure or not. When you factor in Luke as the guy who would agree to fix things around the house as a birthday present to Lorelai, no matter when that started, that includes even more time that Rory would have considered her a part of her just normal Stars Hollow life. I just finished a rewatch of "Teach Me Tonight" and I was struck by the way Luke asked Rory to tutor Jess. He knocked on the door to her room and was granted permission by both Lorelai and Rory without it being an issue. That was long before the writers started trying to retcon a fatherly relationship, but it spoke to the fact that Luke was a constant fixture for both of them. 

 

It's funny, I actually came here to comment on just how much I still hate the Jess character and got caught  up in the was Luke really a father figure to Rory debate. I know people don't buy the whole "she had chicken pox and would only eat mashed potatoes" argument, but it makes perfect sense to me. Lorelai and Rory had two constants when it came to food, Sookie and Luke. Since the show made it clear that they went to Sookie for special fancy food, their day to day nourishment came from Luke's diner. So, if Rory was sick and only wanted mashed potatoes, it makes sense that Lorelai would not only go to Luke for said mashed potatoes, but that he would also be aware of WHY he was making mashed potatoes specifically for Rory - because Lorelai and the whole town would have made sure he knew. 

 

But, back to my original reason: I HATE the Jess character. At first I thought it was because the writers felt the need to dumb Dean down (remember he was a well-read, pop-culturally aware kid from Chicago when we first met him). But, I realized the reason I truly HATE Jess is because of how much of an asshole he was. Here was this kid (granted he had a flake for a mother and a nonexistent dad), who was given an opportunity to start over with a person who truly cared about his well being (Luke). Compare him to someone like Paris whose parents were also nonexistent and how hard she worked to succeed (against all of the morons on the show trying to tell her there was something wrong with her for wanting to be the best at anything she set out to do). Then, there's Jess (who had so much more chemistry with Paris in a single scene than he ever had with Rory throughout his time on the show). 

 

Jess was the guy who knew how important Lorelai and the town in general were to Rory, but he couldn't be bothered to meet her halfway on any of that. I found it extremely creepy that he (when doing yard work for Lorelai) decided to go into Rory's room without permission. I also thought it was creepy the way he Shanghaied Rory's sleigh ride (Bracebridge Dinner) to basically tell her that Dean wasn't the right guy for her. In fact, when Rory complained that Jess didn't even know Dean, I screamed at the television, "He doesn't know you either!" He treated Rory as a concept and a prize to win. Then, after all of his meddling in her relationship with Dean, and getting her to date him, he still not only refused to accept the people she cared about (the town, her mom, etc.). Not only that, he spent a lot of time trying to convince her that she didn't need them (creepy isolation territory). And while I get we were supposed love his rebel nature because he had family issues, he was no Pacey Witter. The fact that he couldn't be bothered to explain to the girl he spent a year chasing that he was not doing well in school or that his dad showed up, told me that it wasn't about being in love with Rory. He had a crush on her, but there was very little actual respect for her in that relationship. 

I agree about Jess. No matter how many times I watch his episodes I hate him. He's an asshole to everyone. Rory's the only one he's remotely nice to and that's only because he wants her. He refuses to go to the winter festival with why? Because now he has her. How charming. Of course he changes his mind not for Rory but because Dean's going to be there. For season two and three he doesn't ever change or grow, he just continues to be an asshole to everyone. Lying constantly to Luke and treating him like crap. He didn't treat Rory any better. Constantly ditching school. Why was Rory impressed by him? Because he was asshole to everyone? Oh, no because he reads. Yes, how nice he reads tons of books so who cares that he treats everyone like crap. I always end up cheering when Luke tells him he had to go. 

[Kohola3]

Great posts from both of you, Matilda and andromeda!  I am at the "hate for Jess" table and you've nailed it on why he was such an unlovable character.  Greedy little shyster only wanted to nab Rory because someone else had her but never treated her like someone for whom he had real feelings.  She was an article to collect, not someone with whom you share your life.  I never found the whole Bad Boy persona to be appealing in any form and certainly not in GG.

[readster]

22 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Great posts from both of you, Matilda and andromeda!  I am at the "hate for Jess" table and you've nailed it on why he was such an unlovable character.  Greedy little shyster only wanted to nab Rory because someone else had her but never treated her like someone for whom he had real feelings.  She was an article to collect, not someone with whom you share your life.  I never found the whole Bad Boy persona to be appealing in any form and certainly not in GG.

Yep perfectly said. Jess's upbringing and home life is way to common these days and you know what people, school officials, and townfolk tell these people now? "Get over it." It doesn't make them special, the bad boy/rebel isn't found charming. It comes across as they are assholes who think nothing else matters but them and then they turn around in a couple of years and have: no job, high school diploma and then complain that life is so unfair to them. Yet, they feel they have this entitlement and that everything else is stupid. Yet, they don't. That was Jess for the majority of the series, not some misunderstood rebel, he was an asshole who blamed everyone for his problems but himself. 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Jess however, is one of the most overrated characters have experienced as part of fandoms. He was an unlikable jerk devoid of charm during his short lived run on the show. He was brought back later to condescend to Rory and pass judgment for which he is widely applauded for by the fandom. His turnabout happened offscreen and felt it was out of convenience rather than authentic. We see too little of the guy to really accurately assess him yet ......

[JayInChicago]

It also struck me how Jess (presumably) destroyed the really good snowman, revealed at the end of Bracebridge (right?) something about it seems really off.

 

anyway, luke really cannot be both Rory and Jess’s father figure if we are to take their romance seriously. I probably don’t need to say anything more!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, JayInChicago said:

It also struck me how Jess (presumably) destroyed the really good snowman, revealed at the end of Bracebridge (right?) something about it seems really off.

 

anyway, luke really cannot be both Rory and Jess’s father figure if we are to take their romance seriously. I probably don’t need to say anything more!

I think the whole stupid snowman thing is one reason I don't like that episode as much as many fans do. Between their entitlement that their snowman is the best if not for the "ringer," to Jess destroying the other one and it being "romantic,"  I just want to yell at them all.  

[JayInChicago]

I think there’s a very minor unintentional thread of sociopathy throughout the series actually. Along with narcissism. #UnpopularistOpinion

[FictionLover]

1 hour ago, JayInChicago said:

I think there’s a very minor unintentional thread of sociopathy throughout the series actually. Along with narcissism. #UnpopularistOpinion

Oh yes! Projection of tithe writer!

[Rachel81]

If I quoted all the posts I agree with, my post would fill a page. I just want to hug everyone who's with me in hating Jess. He's such a jerk! And he even admits it, in so many words -- how any of the #TeamJess people can overlook when Rory (I think?) calls him out on once being attentive, and then turning into a jerk, and he replies that "Yeah, I was trying to get you before, and now I have you." That it was all about the chase -- which when you think about in context of the potential rape scenario just discussed is thoroughly disturbing. Would he have ghosted her if he had succeeded?

There are a hundred other reasons I can't stand him (especially since I've left the marathon on in the background, and that's a lot of Jess all at once), but most of you have expressed it more eloquently than I would, and have hit most of the salient points. Group hug!!

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

50 minutes ago, Rachel81 said:

 how any of the #TeamJess people can overlook when Rory (I think?) calls him out on once being attentive, and then turning into a jerk, and he replies that "Yeah, I was trying to get you before, and now I have you." That it was all about the chase -- which when you think about in context of the potential rape scenario just discussed is thoroughly disturbing. Would he have ghosted her if he had succeeded?

 

Yet a good number of people think he was her best match and they should be endgame. Never mind her having moved on for ever a decade and barely have contact with the guy. 

I see shippers say they were intellectual equals but what is the basis of that claim? They read some of the same books but Rory is she is top of her class brilliant, she would know those selected books he was into because you know, she is well read. We see Jess flunk high school despite this purported intelligent persona. If he were that smart, he'd have been able to handle the workload along with a full-time job. I millions others did it in college and the workload was much more complicated and I am not a wunderkids. He also didn't value school which was a huge thing for Rory.

So what's the compatibility between those two again?

[WhoaWhoKnew]

12 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

So what's the compatibility between those two again?

My guess would be they like the opposites attract aspect and don't realize that's all there is to that pairing.

[Guest]

I think some shippers of Rory/Jess are going off of chemistry. They were dating in real life and AB isn’t the best actress, so there was a certain amount of chemistry you didn’t see with her other guys.

[Anela]

I would rather see her with someone new. I guess that fits with the "unpopular opinions" title. I was really put off by the affair with Logan, even though it is a pattern of her thinking she owns these men, once she's dated them. There's a reason she moved on (at the end of the original series). He said he didn't want to go backwards, to a long-distance relationship, but that's exactly what they had, only he had a fiance (and then wife). But poor Paul didn't fare well, so I doubt they would bring in someone new, unless they need Wookie guy for a paternity test. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

17 minutes ago, deaja said:

I think some shippers of Rory/Jess are going off of chemistry. They were dating in real life and AB isn’t the best actress, so there was a certain amount of chemistry you didn’t see with her other guys.

There are novel length posts of why they belong together; it is not just chemistry. Their discussions about certain literal works is the one of the main selling points. 

Re; AB ability as an actress. She was able to generate chemistry with all her acting partners, including her romantic partners. All of her pairings were popular, she is the common dominator. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Yet a good number of people think he was her best match and they should be endgame. Never mind her having moved on for ever a decade and barely have contact with the guy. 

I see shippers say they were intellectual equals but what is the basis of that claim? They read some of the same books but Rory is she is top of her class brilliant, she would know those selected books he was into because you know, she is well read. We see Jess flunk high school despite this purported intelligent persona. If he were that smart, he'd have been able to handle the workload along with a full-time job. I millions others did it in college and the workload was much more complicated and I am not a wunderkids. He also didn't value school which was a huge thing for Rory.

So what's the compatibility between those two again?

I don't know. Books seems to be the only thing they have in common. I don't see how Jess "gets" Rory. He doesn't understand or care how close Rory is to Lorelai, the town and her grandparents. Jess sneers at everyone and everything. Rory loves the town festivals and events. She really wants to go to college. He has zero interest in doing anything but being a jerk and leaving town. He lies to her about school and graduation. He lies about how he got the black eye. He had a second chance later in the episode to come clean with Rory how it really happen, and lied again. Rory goes home and tells her mother she's thinking about sex with Jess. Why Rory? Is it hormones? He's a jerk to everyone. Including everyone you love or like. I was watching the marathon on UPtv and one was the episode where Rory and Lane are helping Lane's cousin's bride get ready (which is weird of its own weird reasons). They end up talking about Dave and Jess. Lane is having a hard time saying something nice about Jess, Rory tells her that is okay. Rory, if your own best friend has hard time liking your boyfriend, maybe you should think about it. I know friends don't have to like each other's boyfriends but its still weird that Rory knows and understands that Lane doesn't like Jess. After the wedding Lane invite Rory to the reception and tells her to bring Jess only to remark he's not really a reception type. Not everyone likes receptions, but Jess can't suck it up to go with Rory? No, of course he can't he couldn't suck it up to go the winter festival. But it also made me thing, what is his thing? What does he like to do? Because it looks like nothing except be a jerk to everyone. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I don't know. Books seems to be the only thing they have in common. I don't see how Jess "gets" Rory. He doesn't understand or care how close Rory is to Lorelai, the town and her grandparents. Jess sneers at everyone and everything. Rory loves the town festivals and events. She really wants to go to college. He has zero interest in doing anything but being a jerk and leaving town. He lies to her about school and graduation. He lies about how he got the black eye. He had a second chance later in the episode to come clean with Rory how it really happen, and lied again. Rory goes home and tells her mother she's thinking about sex with Jess. Why Rory? Is it hormones? He's a jerk to everyone. Including everyone you love or like. I was watching the marathon on UPtv and one was the episode where Rory and Lane are helping Lane's cousin's bride get ready (which is weird of its own weird reasons). They end up talking about Dave and Jess. Lane is having a hard time saying something nice about Jess, Rory tells her that is okay. Rory, if your own best friend has hard time liking your boyfriend, maybe you should think about it. I know friends don't have to like each other's boyfriends but its still weird that Rory knows and understands that Lane doesn't like Jess. After the wedding Lane invite Rory to the reception and tells her to bring Jess only to remark he's not really a reception type. Not everyone likes receptions, but Jess can't suck it up to go with Rory? No, of course he can't he couldn't suck it up to go the winter festival. But it also made me thing, what is his thing? What does he like to do? Because it looks like nothing except be a jerk to everyone. 

Well, she was 16 years and from her perceptive, had ruined a good relationship to be with him. She had to put in the effort.  But once she decided she was done with Jess, she was done.

She never looked back. She was so done that she didn't care to maintain even a friendly contact with him over the years. 

[elang4]

I think Jess was the only one who grew up at all. Ok maybe Dean did eventually in the revival but Logan regressed. Jess was the only one out of them who actually made something of his life. Sure he might have been a bit of a jerk at the beginning but he realised that and he changed himself for the better and got really successful. I must be in the minority but I really like Jess.

[tarotx]

So much about Jess and Jess&Rory is assumed. A lot of it happened off screen and not even mentioned on screen. I mean we don't know much about adult Jess at all. As for Jess and Rory I know people headcanon a whole relationship where they talk hours and hours about literature and life. Where they both love staying locked inside only talking about books and their deep meanings. How they both fully understand each other because the books they love tell every secret two happily isolated introverts can't easily express.

Edited November 23, 2017 by tarotx

[Anela]

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I don't know. Books seems to be the only thing they have in common. I don't see how Jess "gets" Rory. He doesn't understand or care how close Rory is to Lorelai, the town and her grandparents. Jess sneers at everyone and everything. Rory loves the town festivals and events. She really wants to go to college. He has zero interest in doing anything but being a jerk and leaving town. He lies to her about school and graduation. He lies about how he got the black eye. He had a second chance later in the episode to come clean with Rory how it really happen, and lied again. Rory goes home and tells her mother she's thinking about sex with Jess. Why Rory? Is it hormones? He's a jerk to everyone. Including everyone you love or like. I was watching the marathon on UPtv and one was the episode where Rory and Lane are helping Lane's cousin's bride get ready (which is weird of its own weird reasons). They end up talking about Dave and Jess. Lane is having a hard time saying something nice about Jess, Rory tells her that is okay. Rory, if your own best friend has hard time liking your boyfriend, maybe you should think about it. I know friends don't have to like each other's boyfriends but its still weird that Rory knows and understands that Lane doesn't like Jess. After the wedding Lane invite Rory to the reception and tells her to bring Jess only to remark he's not really a reception type. Not everyone likes receptions, but Jess can't suck it up to go with Rory? No, of course he can't he couldn't suck it up to go the winter festival. But it also made me thing, what is his thing? What does he like to do? Because it looks like nothing except be a jerk to everyone. 

One thing that always bothered me with this, was that she always expected her mother to be nice to him, or to come up with something nice to say about him. He was rude to her so often, I don't recall him being rude to Lane. By he deliberately bugs her mother, and she says to HER, "be nice." I would have expected him to cut the crap, and be nice to my family, but it always seems to be the reverse. 

6 hours ago, elang4 said:

I think Jess was the only one who grew up at all. Ok maybe Dean did eventually in the revival but Logan regressed. Jess was the only one out of them who actually made something of his life. Sure he might have been a bit of a jerk at the beginning but he realised that and he changed himself for the better and got really successful. I must be in the minority but I really like Jess.

I like reformed Jess, but I'd like to see him with someone new, too. 

All of the talk of the three boyfriends, reminded me of mum, who said she couldn't bare the thought of marrying someone from her hometown, or staying there. She fell in love with, and married my dad, an American, and moved over here. She was always independent and hard-working, and she wanted to see the world. Unfortunately, she didn't get to see much of it, but she did get out of that town. 

[elang4]

7 minutes ago, Anela said:

One thing that always bothered me with this, was that she always expected her mother to be nice to him, or to come up with something nice to say about him. He was rude to her so often, I don't recall him being rude to Lane. By he deliberately bugs her mother, and she says to HER, "be nice." I would have expected him to cut the crap, and be nice to my family, but it always seems to be the reverse. 

I like reformed Jess, but I'd like to see him with someone new, too. 

All of the talk of the three boyfriends, reminded me of mum, who said she couldn't bare the thought of marrying someone from her hometown, or staying there. She fell in love with, and married my dad, an American, and moved over here. She was always independent and hard-working, and she wanted to see the world. Unfortunately, she didn't get to see much of it, but she did get out of that town. 

Oh I agree! I think Jess (even in season 6 and possibly end of season 4 became too good for Rory). I like Jess and I was a Jess/Rory shipper for a bit but that doesn't mean I want them to be the endgame. Rory changed so much and in the end, I genuinely thought Jess deserved someone else.

[Taryn74]

7 hours ago, elang4 said:

I think Jess was the only one who grew up at all. Ok maybe Dean did eventually in the revival but Logan regressed. Jess was the only one out of them who actually made something of his life. Sure he might have been a bit of a jerk at the beginning but he realised that and he changed himself for the better and got really successful. I must be in the minority but I really like Jess.

I'm an unashamed Jess lover.

[clack]

Jess was a poseur. He had this self-image of the artist as rebel. Flunking out of school was part of that image -- think of how bad-ass that would look (he fantasizes) on the author's bio blurb on the book flap of his first novel.

This self-dramatization is also part of his motive in leaving Rory, Luke, and Stars Hollow without notice. An act of renunciation, Stars Hollow's own Rimbaud, disappearing and leaving behind only his legend. Jess : non-comformist, outsider, rebel, genius. It's all adolescent narcissism.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

16 hours ago, elang4 said:

I think Jess was the only one who grew up at all. 

When your screen time is a total of 5 seconds every other season, character analysis is off the table. At least it shouldn’t be compared to the characters that every facet of themselves is displayed.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS
facade is not the same as facet

[elang4]

1 hour ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

When your screen time is a total of 5 seconds every other season, character analysis is off the table. At least it shouldn’t be compared to the characters that every facade of themselves is displayed.

I get your point but I still think he's the most successful. Even though we don't see him much, it's implied that he's doing well. And he's obviously making enough money to pay Luke back. I have to say, Jess is my favourite out of all of them. I've been introducing my mum to Gilmore Girls and am watching it with her for the first time which I'm loving but we've got to season 5 which means I have to sit through the cringey Rory/Dean scenes. I normally skip through them. I do like Logan but I think the revival really regressed him and I didn't like who he had become. Even though it was obvious he didn't love Odette and he was marrying her for the dynastic plan, cheating is still wrong. Pure and simple. It's what turned me off Dean.

Anyway, I get all your comments about Jess but I agree he's had flaws but I just think he's the most genuine out of all of them and he's the one who's had the most growth.

[ghoulina]

On 11/23/2017 at 10:23 AM, Taryn74 said:

I'm an unashamed Jess lover.

You're not alone. I don't excuse all the horrible stuff he did. Jess was definitely an ass at times and I don't think she should have been with him as a teenager. But I loved mature, adult Jess. In my head, after the Obama tour, Rory settled down and NY and they rekindled their relationship. I do think they were the best match out of the three, but I would be fine with her being with someone new as well. I just don't like when people assume if you're a Jess-Rory shipper that means you like how he treated her in high school. He was truly a fucked up kid and needed to get his head on straight. 

In the end, he was better to Rory and better to Luke. I think he grew the most out of a LOT of the characters. 

[Guest]

I like the Jess that did quiet, unassuming things to show he had changed. Showing up at his mom’s wedding and telling Luke it was for him, etc. Not “show up in theGilmores driveway and yell at Rory” changed Jess. Or I guess you could say, I liked his more mature actions relating to Luke, but didn’t really care at that point about him/Rory.

[HeySandyStrange]

16 minutes ago, deaja said:

I like the Jess that did quiet, unassuming things to show he had changed. Showing up at his mom’s wedding and telling Luke it was for him, etc. Not “show up in theGilmores driveway and yell at Rory” changed Jess. Or I guess you could say, I liked his more mature actions relating to Luke, but didn’t really care at that point about him/Rory.

This is pretty much how I feel about Jess. Didn't like him at the beginning, didn't like his relationship with Rory, but I ended up liking who he became as an adult. I also appreciate that, while I thought the good girl/bad boy dynamic he had with Rory was cliche, their relationship was pretty realistic: they had chemistry, their feelings for each other were intense, but they were pretty different, had different goals and ambitions, and they were too young for it to work out. And while I know some shippers would love them to hook up know and become a happy family, they still seem pretty different. Jess seems to be living a more hipsterish, urban life while Rory is stuck between the small town life and the Logan's world. They have been on pretty different trajectories for the past decade or so.

[Frelling Tralk]

On 22/11/2017 at 2:26 AM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

How he is viewed by a majority of the fandom is really interesting even more interesting is the notion that he is too good for one of the show's protagonist whom haven't expressed a desire to be with him since she was 17 years. However, they are willing to accept her for him if she changes for him. Only then will she be worthy. It is a very popular sentiment if you've read these threads. 

Man I could not agree more, it baffles me how common the sentiment still is that Jess/Rory are ‘endgame’, either that or Jess is ‘too good for Rory’. There is so much stock put in one brief scene of Jess looking longingly at Rory, never mind that she seemed more nostalgic about her relationship with *Dean* even in the revival than she did with Jess. Heck her last kiss with Jess in season 6 consisted of her using him to make another man jealous, and then apologising and acknowledging the strength of her feelings for Logan, her last scenes with him in season 4 consisted of Rory being very clear that no I don’t want to be with you, and then losing her virginity to Dean. But that brief look that Jess gave Rory apparently overrides any of Rory’s actual feelings on the matter?

Rory really did keep true to her words at the end of season 3 about how she’s just done with Jess and she’s not going to pine. I think his appeal for Rory was mostly that he was the typical fantasy bad boy, she was only 16/17 at the time that this surly new guy in town was grunting and being rude to everyone else, it flattered her and made her feel special that she was the one person he would open up with and show his true self when it came to having discussions on literature etc. Plus she was dating the safe boy Dean who everyone else in town loved and approved of, the boy that her mother kept urging her to be nicer too, so of course the grass was greener on the other side. It’s a very typical fantasy for a young girl to want to try out the bad boy instead, but then season 3 killed the fantasy for her once and for all IMO.

I really think that Amy only ever meant to use the relationship with Jess as part of Rory’s growing up. Dean was there for Rory’s first experiences with love, and then Jess was there as part of the bad boy phase that she grew out of once and for all after being forced to confront the reality that dating the bad guy means dating someone who doesn’t like to do anything that you like, who never wants to take you out, who makes no effort with your family and embarrasses you in front your grandparents, and who shares none of his life with you. Even Lorelai had to tell Rory that she wasn’t being fair when Rory was comparing Dean and Jess, getting nostalgic for how much better Dean treated her and how ‘Dean always called’

And no Jess isn’t the bad boy any more, but that was the whole basis of 16 year old Rory’s initial attraction, so I’m not sure why it’s so widely assumed that Jess is Rory’s ultimate relationship and that they’re destined for one another as adults 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Frelling Tralk

[FictionLover]

Perhaps the fantasy of Rory and Jess lives on because of the “full friggin’ circle” theme of ASP’s story. Logan is Rory’s Christopher and Jess is her Luke.