One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[junienmomo]

6 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

---As some of you know, my mom is very ill and I'm in desperate need of distraction :) So I thought it might be fun to think of some of our favorite moments/attributes of the least popular characters. For example, Dean is a pretty unpopular character, but I'm sure the fine minds here can come up with some of his good points and best scenes...right?! :) I'd love to hear what people come up with! 

LOL I tried, but Liz and TJ are just unredeemable. It makes my skin crawl when I hear TJ draw out Luuuke. Or when they changed Liz' character from neglectful to quirky.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, junienmomo said:

LOL I tried, but Liz and TJ are just unredeemable. It makes my skin crawl when I hear TJ draw out Luuuke. Or when they changed Liz' character from neglectful to quirky.

Yeah, the best I can come up with for those two are like "well, they aren't mass murderers."

[amensisterfriend]

LOL I tried, but Liz and TJ are just unredeemable. It makes my skin crawl when I hear TJ draw out Luuuke. Or when they changed Liz' character from neglectful to quirky.

Yeah, the best I can come up with for those two are like "well, they aren't mass murderers."

Wow, talk about a mighty challenge! I was congratulating myself for saying nice things about Dean, but coming up with valid praise for Liz and TJ is far more daunting :) And do we know as a FACT that they aren't mass murderers? Let's not be so hasty ;) (As some of you know, my dream is a Stars Hollow-set murder mystery, and I certainly wouldn't mind if Liz and TJ were the culprits or, better yet, the first victims!)

Let's see, another justifiably unpopular character I'll find something positive in...Taylor! In his own woefully misguided way, he does care deeply about the community, arguably more so than any other character. (I know that's damning with faint praise, but I'm trying!) His leadership style, while often alarmingly dictatorial, does result in accomplishing a lot more in Stars Hollow than I suspect would ever get done otherwise. Oh, and he runs a place that serves delicious ice cream to hungry SH residents---one can't underestimate the value of THAT! 

[Sweet Tee]

Agreed.  I love Luke.  He's always been my favorite character on the show.  But the existence of Liz and TJ really tested my patience to the point where it might have been worth losing luke just to never see either of them again.  

[clack]

ASP went way too broad with her comedy relief supporting characters. TJ and Kirk, especially, seemed to exist in a different universe than the one inhabited by the main characters.

At least Kirk, in small doses, was good for the occasional small chuckle. I just don't get how TJ was supposed to be funny or entertaining. Ok, he's really, really stupid and constantly imposes on Luke, but where are the jokes?

 Amy = George Lucas, TJ = Jar Jar Binks. It's not cool for a showrunner to be so far up her own ass that 1) either her collaborators are too intimidated to tell her that her idea sucks, or that 2) if they do tell her, she doesn't listen.

Edited June 22, 2016 by clack

[readster]

1 hour ago, clack said:

ASP went way too broad with her comedy relief supporting characters. TJ and Kirk, especially, seemed to exist in a different universe than the one inhabited by the main characters.

At least Kirk, in small doses, was good for the occasional small chuckle. I just don't get how TJ was supposed to be funny or entertaining. Ok, he's really, really stupid and constantly imposes on Luke, but where are the jokes?

 Amy = George Lucas, TJ = Jar Jar Binks. It's not cool for a showrunner to be so far up her own ass that 1) either her collaborators are too intimated to tell her that her idea sucks, or that 2) if they do tell her, she doesn't listen.

I agree, why I didn't like TJ, they made him too stupid and then he always had to be a main foil for Luke. Like AS-P wanted Luke to have his own Sookie and went about extremely wrong. Problem with Kirk was when they upped his antics to the extreme. Him being the guy in town working 1 millions jobs is funny to a point. However, when he is magically getting his real state license. Somehow studying and training to be a mail carrier and him even saying how hard the test was. Magically having over 200K in savings, 13 brothers and sisters and yet we never see them or the fact he can't get out of his mother's house. Who was basically trying to kick him out of the house since day 1. Being the lead role in a children's musical where the next oldest "kid" is 10 years old be because his girlfriend was the stage manager. I mean, that was going way to far and I remember that Sean Gunn said he was getting hate mail because they said to the show runners to dial back Kirk to maybe a 2 minute appearance and didn't know why. I wanted to go: "Because not Kirk has become a crutch for writing on the show." Need an extra 5 minutes to fill in a script? Use Kirk or to an extent Taylor or TJ. Need something stupid make somewhat sense? Use Kirk, Taylor or TJ and make everyone else act stupid.

[junienmomo]

Here's my hit list, chosen with two goals, one, to allocate time to more interesting plot possibilities, and two, eliminate the characters/storylines that irritated the heck out of me. 

1. Christopher after season 3; I'm willing to negotiate WBB and improving his relationship with Rory 
2. Anna, her brother and April. Nonnegotiable. 
3. TJ nonnegotiable. Liz if she has a visible arc from druggie to recovering, preferably with Jess' assistance. 
4. All Kirk above five minutes per episode, unless he formed a romantic relationship with Taylor, then seven minutes.

What I would want to see instead:

• A more plausible relationship for Luke than Nicole. Nicole should have been an Alex.
• A better arc for Lorelai and Emily. 
• Rory making some real female friends at Yale.
• More Taylor and Luke
• More townies with Lorelai involvement
• A visit from or to Hope.
• More Michel, Lorelai and Sookie in the Inn
• Luke and Lorelai having to work through their communication issues on-screen and in a permanent relationship

[hippielamb]

Sorry about your mom, amensisterfriend. 

Dean haters avert your eyes, I'm about to list his many good qualities, imo. 

15 hours ago, Leonana said:

I'm sorry to hear about your mom.

Regarding Dean - he has good chemistry with Lorelai? Sorry, couldn't resist! Let me see, he built Rory a car. That seemed pretty special.

Lol my favourite Dean scenes are always with Lorelai. I could list them but pretty much any scene with the two of them together makes me giggle at how wrong it is but I love it. 

It makes sense that Dean was meant to be the perfect first boyfriend, there's so much in his relationship with Rory that is almost too good to be true. He does things because she wants to. The Chilton dance, going to her grandparents house, the debutante ball where we wears a tux with tails and gloves, double dating with Max and Lorelai, and later with Luke (guy who put him in a headlock) and Lorelai. He's worried about flaunting his relationship with Rory after his separation but he relaxes and does it for her. Everything he does seems to put Rory first even after she has continued to take him for granted.

He builds Rory a freakin car! He does chores at their house. He drives to New Haven when Rory calls even though his wife doesn't want them hanging out. He lets Rory cry on his shoulder when she's falling apart. I love when Dean schools Max on dating a Gilmore girl. I love the scenes after his break-up with Rory where he's not taking any b.s. from Jess. I like that he has a strong work ethic and doesn't think he's above doing things. And oh yeah, he plays hockey. /end Dean loveathon

 

10 hours ago, JayInChicago said:

I'm rewatching extremely slowly and just got to the dance marathon episode ... "They shoot Gilmores, don't they" right? Anyway, Dean breaking up with Rory was a highlight of his time on GG to me. I rewatched just that part three times. I still don't understand the line he addresses to Shane, but besides that, his soliloquy was loud, necessary, and perfect. Rory was being a little shit. I also like in the next episode (I believe) when Rory visits him at the window and he stands up to her.

I loved that too. I think for so long Dean was trying to deny what was going on but it was pretty blatant by that episode. I wish he had told her off much sooner but I am glad he got some self respect back. I also like him telling her off after he got engaged. It felt like he had been wanting to say it ever since they broke up. 

[hippielamb]

10 hours ago, junienmomo said:

LOL I tried, but Liz and TJ are just unredeemable. It makes my skin crawl when I hear TJ draw out Luuuke. Or when they changed Liz' character from neglectful to quirky.

I like Liz, there's an unpopular opinion for the unpopulars. As I have been rewatching I am taking note of her so-called misdeeds and nothing spectacular has jumped out at me. I thought it was actually a good parenting move on her part that she sent Jess to Luke. She couldn't keep him on the straight path so she turned to the one person she could depend on. If she didn't care about him at all, she would have just let Jess run wild as he had been and getting into trouble.

I just like Liz. I've always seen her as the flip side to Lorelai. I love her hippie chick non-attitude. I like that on a show where everybody meddles in each other's lives, Liz doesn't. She lets people make their own bad choices. Her mellow demeanor is a nice change from the sourness of the Danes/Mariano men.

Favourite Liz moments: I like when she finds her old pot in the closet and later as she and Luke discuss Jess. It amuses me that she lets Luke's crabbiness just roll off of her. I liked when she first meets Lorelai, and then later her wedding. I like when she finally calls Luke out on his behaviour regarding Lorelai and April.

I agree about TJ. He is by far the most grating character, imo. His voice annoys me to no end. I liked him when he was first introduced and he stood up to Luke but they quickly changed that and made him a type of comic relief that wasn't even funny.

[amensisterfriend]

Unpopularly enough, I actually dislike Liz even MORE than I dislike TJ, whose (many, many, many!) irksome traits are at least somewhat acknowledged by other characters. Liz bothers me for a boatload of reasons I've already rambled about, and she happens to be played by an actress who I pretty much never enjoy even in less annoying roles :) I'd happily erase both Liz and TJ from the show's canvas, but if I could get rid of just one, I'd actually pick Liz. I can't even defend or properly explain this one :) 

[shron17]

2 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I like Liz, there's an unpopular opinion for the unpopulars. As I have been rewatching I am taking note of her so-called misdeeds and nothing spectacular has jumped out at me. I thought it was actually a good parenting move on her part that she sent Jess to Luke. She couldn't keep him on the straight path so she turned to the one person she could depend on. If she didn't care about him at all, she would have just let Jess run wild as he had been and getting into trouble.

I like Liz too.  She wasn't the best mom but she was very young when he was born and they were left on their own.  I think she had good intentions, and I'm at the point now where I'm okay with any parent who does the best they can at the time.  That's all any of us can do.  My favorite Liz moment is when she's trying to sell her jewelry at Luke's.  Luke was so grumpy and Liz took it all in stride.

Quote

LUKE: You were depressed for a month, you cut all your hair, you threw out all your clothes...
LIZ: I remember the bad times.
...
LUKE: They're gonna make people's ears green and send them to the hospital.
LIZ: You cannot design my ad campaign.

I like the idea of appreciating unpopular characters.  The only two I can think of where I can't come up with anything are Jackson's brother Beau and Rune.  

Dean - he was a very good boyfriend for a while and planned a romantic date, he managed to stand up to Richard about his car without being too angry/disrespectful, he was nice to his little sister, and tried to be a good friend to Rory after they broke up

Taylor - he tried really hard to take care of the town, whether they appreciated it or not, and if we go by Jackson's tenure he was actually doing a job that no one else wanted to do and he did it very well, if you can overlook his self-serving issues.  I've always had a soft spot for Taylor--I think it's because he's just a rule follower at heart.

Liz - even with all the mistakes she's made, she goes on and tries to do better, moves on from the past and keeps hoping for the best 

TJ - he does his best to be a good husband, supports Liz's ambitions, managed to buy a house and seems to be a really good dad to Doula

[scarynikki12]

Beau looks like Ron Sawnson if you need a reason to appreciate him. 

[JayInChicago]

Liz reminds me of the Jackie character from Roseanne. Though Jackie was a much more thoroughly fleshed out character obviously, but they both had that younger sibling thing going on. They knew they could count on their older siblings for help, up to and including material goods/money. They knew they could take up their older siblings' time.  There are a lot of holes in the Liz character that make it hard for me to hate or like her. Is she self-supporting? And if not, does Luke regularly give her money? The materials used for her jewelry business make it look kinda like junk, not like something you could really sell at a good ren faire. how did she and TJ afford a house in Stars Hollow?

i can't say I hate her though. I did think there was something to Jess telling Luke to stop bossing people around. He could have cut contact if he wanted. Being there but cranky and negative wasn't a good look either lol

[katha]

3 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

Unpopularly enough, I actually dislike Liz even MORE than I dislike TJ, whose (many, many, many!) irksome traits are at least somewhat acknowledged by other characters. Liz bothers me for a boatload of reasons I've already rambled about, and she happens to be played by an actress who I pretty much never enjoy even in less annoying roles :) I'd happily erase both Liz and TJ from the show's canvas, but if I could get rid of just one, I'd actually pick Liz. I can't even defend or properly explain this one :) 

Totally agree with this. I think Liz is irredeemably hateful. I totally understood why Jess was such a ball of rage and misery. Look at Liz: She's so utterly self-absorbed and unable to see beyond herself and her own needs, you can't even have a proper argument with her! Like, it's not even that she doesn't take any kind of responsibility for anything she does and constantly takes advantage of other people, she doesn't even realize that what she's doing is bad and feels wronged when her selfishness and entitlement aren't accomodated. I can see constant situations in the past where her ever-changing boyfriends (one stole her TV! So funny! Not!), unsteady employment, drug use and general neglect created stress and insecurity for Jess, but anytime he tried to confront her on any of those things she would just start pouting like a twelve year old and tell him how mean he was. IMO the resigned way he deals with her shows that he's given up on ever getting through to her on anything, it was really sad to watch. I'd take TJ over her as well.

Edited June 22, 2016 by katha

[txhorns79]

Quote

I like Liz too.  She wasn't the best mom but she was very young when he was born and they were left on their own.  I think she had good intentions, and I'm at the point now where I'm okay with any parent who does the best they can at the time.  That's all any of us can do.

I just can't with this.  She wasn't a good parent, and seemed to have done a real number with her kid.  I never really got the sense she had good intentions, or was even close to doing her "best" with Jess.  Liz struck me as the kind of parent for whom "I've tried nothing and am all out of ideas" was a guiding philosophy.   

[Smad]

I was waiting all of S7 for Liz to dump Doula on Luke's counter and then run off to buy cigarettes in the next state, never to return. Is the concept of a babysitter completely foreign to her? Why does she constantly have to impose on her brother? Oh wait, she always has. Oh and btw did she forget that Doula was not her first child? Pretty sure she had one already. And while she is at it, just sell your father's boat without telling Luke because you need the storage. You got moths? Don't go to a hotel, no impose on your brother again because there everything is free.

I won't even get into what her way of living did to poor Jess because I've voiced my opinion on that before.

[betterthisway]

This is my favorite show and I'm so excited to talk about it! I read all 72 pages of this thread and had the best time doing it. I have some unpopular opinions so buckle up and fortify with some coffee from Luke's before reading this :-)  

I like Dean a lot until the fifth season and the Rory and Dean relationship of the first season was definitely my favorite of all of Rory's romances. In my imagination Dean was never ruined. 

Luke was definitely at his best in the first season but I love him in every season no matter how badly the writers tried to ruin him. I think because the show is so over the top in general the temper stuff doesn't bother me because I just don't think we're supposed to take it seriously. I also think Luke grew a lot in season 7. 

I love Lorelai too and even though she has a lot of flaws it hurts me when people hate her. I understand it and of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but even though I agree with people who think she'd be too much to take sometimes in real life I think she's a really unique character and a very big part of what makes the show such a success. 

I love Rory too. She's one of my favorite characters ever. I'm boring, I love all the main characters even though I have no trouble understanding the criticisms! But I mainly love Rory around Lorelai, Lane, Paris, the adults of Stars Hollow and Richard. I don't like Rory around Jess or Logan and her interactions with Emily don't bring out the best in her. 

I am the biggest Luke and Lorelai shipper but didn't mind Lorelai's other relationships. They weren't fun to watch sometimes but I think they served their purpose. Rory's relationships bothered me so much more. 

Maybe if I were a bigger Jess fan the second and third seasons would be my favorite like they seem to be for most of the people here, but the first season is definitely the best to me! Then comes the fourth, then comes the fifth. So I would rank them as 1, 4, 5, 2, 3, 7 and 6 even though Luke and Lorelai actually have some very good moments at the beginning of Season 6. 

I hate Jess and especially Logan. It's not because I'm the only Rory and Dean shipper on planet earth, I just really don't like either character. At least Jess had some interesting scenes with Luke, but Logan and his moronic friends were just hard for me to watch. 

[amensisterfriend]

Welcome, Betterthisway! 

Quote

I hate Jess and especially Logan

Honestly, I sometimes wonder whether I'd like Jess if 1) he weren't such a book lover, which I'm an admitted sucker for and 2) he didn't happen to be played by an actor who AB was in love with in real life and had amazing chemistry and comfort with that she didn't IMO have with other guys. Because take those two things away and Jess is pretty much the typical 'angry hipster punk rebel' who smokes (just in case we didn't know he's supposed to be a 'bad boy'!), drops out of school and just generally loathes the entire non-Rory world, which while in some ways understandable given his upbringing isn't normally the type of character I'd especially like or even find very interesting.    

Quote

I love Lorelai too and even though she has a lot of flaws it hurts me when people hate her. I understand it and of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but even though I agree with people who think she'd be too much to take sometimes in real life I think she's a really unique character and a very big part of what makes the show such a success. 

I love Rory too. She's one of my favorite characters ever. I'm boring, I love all the main characters even though I have no trouble understanding the criticisms![/quote]

 

 

Agreed! I mean, they both drive me nuts sometimes, but...agreed :) And their relationship with each other is the heart and soul of the show for me. 

ETA: These quote boxes never work properly for me, but the "Agreed" part of the above exchange is mine, not Betterthisway's...:) 

Edited June 23, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[Mulva]

On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 6:21 PM, amensisterfriend said:

---As some of you know, my mom is very ill and I'm in desperate need of distraction :) So I thought it might be fun to think of some of our favorite moments/attributes of the least popular characters. For example, Dean is a pretty unpopular character, but I'm sure the fine minds here can come up with some of his good points and best scenes...right?! :) I'd love to hear what people come up with!

He was generally pleasant and polite to people.  He didn't go around announcing that he was smarter than anyone else while working at Walmart at flunking out of high school - he actually finished high school.  He never pressured Rory into having sex.

[Aloeonatable]

I didn't find Dean especially interesting nor attractive.

 I did like it when he wanted to come with Rory to explain to Lorelai that nothing happened the night he and Rory fell asleep at Miss Patty's. I don't remember if he wanted to stay around and talk to Lorelai when she caught him and Rory the night of the Dragonfly opening, but Rory made him leave.  

[Melancholy]

I think this is apparently an UO. I always love Luke- but I didn't think he was at all better in S1 than the other seasons. I watched the series pretty out of order and casually the first time around back when it was airing and on odd and ends ABC Family reruns. However, on a rewatch from start to finish on Netflix, I'd say that I'd be a little meh on him in S1 but then, really fall in love during the S2 Jess arc. I like Luke in S1 too- but his personality is a little unfinished until Jess comes into the picture to give him a big arc with someone besides Lorelai and to start a real Luke v. Lorelai conflict. One of my favorite parts about Luke is that he's the only character who can challenge Lorelai  without being dismissed as a child/sidekick who doesn't know any better (Rory, Sookie) or having so much mud/grey themselves that they can't mount much of a challenge (her parents, Chris, Michel, Jess). For all of the Mary Sue Rory criticisms, people can call Rory out and make it stick for, at least, the length of the call-out scene itself much better. 

Luke absolutely hits a nadir in S6- but I think that S1 is actually my second-to-least-favorite Luke season. 

[elang4]

4 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I think this is apparently an UO. I always love Luke- but I didn't think he was at all better in S1 than the other seasons. I watched the series pretty out of order and casually the first time around back when it was airing and on odd and ends ABC Family reruns. However, on a rewatch from start to finish on Netflix, I'd say that I'd be a little meh on him in S1 but then, really fall in love during the S2 Jess arc. I like Luke in S1 too- but his personality is a little unfinished until Jess comes into the picture to give him a big arc with someone besides Lorelai and to start a real Luke v. Lorelai conflict. One of my favorite parts about Luke is that he's the only character who can challenge Lorelai  without being dismissed as a child/sidekick who doesn't know any better (Rory, Sookie) or having so much mud/grey themselves that they can't mount much of a challenge (her parents, Chris, Michel, Jess). For all of the Mary Sue Rory criticisms, people can call Rory out and make it stick for, at least, the length of the call-out scene itself much better. 

Luke absolutely hits a nadir in S6- but I think that S1 is actually my second-to-least-favorite Luke season. 

I agree with the fact that Luke is the only that can actually challenge Lorelai and although Lorelai is very stubborn, he is the only one who can actually make her listen.

[betterthisway]

I'm not sure if this goes here, but while stalking this thread I saw that a lot of people think Lorelai is similar to Jess and decided that I think she's more similar to Logan. I love Lorelai and don't love Logan, but that's beside the point! 

Both Logan and Lorelai are raised in privileged families by parents who have high, rigid expectations of them.

They have cheerful, extroverted personalities and are generally considered charming.

They use humor and a determination to keep things light almost as a defensive coping mechanism. 

They both test and bend rules rather than automatically following them. 

They both sleep with other people very soon after breaking up with their significant others as if needing to reaffirm their desirability and just to feel pleasure and more alive. 

They're spontaneous and determined to live life to the fullest. 

They both have a knack for business. 

They are both often considered self-absorbed but can also be very generous and selfless when someone they care about is in need. 

They can seem like airheads but are very quick, witty and clever. 

When people are mad at them, they'll both try over and over to make up with them. 

 

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I can think of at the moment. I just thought it was interesting to see that so many more fans consider Lorelai more like Jess than Logan. It's funny how writing this made me hate Logan a little less or possibly just understand him a little more! 

I'm in the unpopular corner with people who don't like either Jess or Logan much, but Gilmore Girls characters and the parallels between them are all so interesting to analyze. As I was writing this I started thinking about how Rory and Luke have some important similarities too. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by betterthisway

[junienmomo]

betterthisway, I like what you're saying. While I'm not so sure that Logan has proven his business acumen, he is willing to take big risks, as is Lorelai, just in a more outwardly confident way. 

And yes, Rory and Luke are very similar. They are the straight me to Lorelai's comedian role. If she didn't have them, she'd come across a lot more like Kirk, babbling insanely without being understood. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

They are the straight men to Lorelai's comedian role. If she didn't have them, she'd come across a lot more like Kirk, babbling insanely without being understood. 

Heh.  I think even with Rory as her straight man, Lorelai would still come across as babbling insanely.  In terms of the character comparisons, I always thought it was interesting how similar Lorelai and Emily were.  For all of Lorelai's protests, she was very much her mother's daughter. 

[clack]

Most of the Logan/Lorelai comparisons would be equally valid for Logan/Christopher.

[junienmomo]

17 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Heh.  I think even with Rory as her straight man, Lorelai would still come across as babbling insanely.  In terms of the character comparisons, I always thought it was interesting how similar Lorelai and Emily were.  For all of Lorelai's protests, she was very much her mother's daughter. 

She learned quite well in that first decade and a half of living with Emily. But you're right, she also shared Emily's penchant for having things her way. 

LOL, without a straight man, one is just wandering around the planet babbling nonsensically. But a straight man gives credence to the babbling, because if the straight man tries to understand and accepts, that's an example to the rest of the world.

[txhorns79]

Quote

But you're right, she also shared Emily's penchant for having things her way. 

Seriously.  Witness Lorelai's giant tantrum upon being told that Rory had *gasp* deviated from the plan and applied to other colleges, along with Harvard. 

[amensisterfriend]

As someone who likes Lorelai despite her many (many, many!) flaws and is more ambivalent and apt to change my mind about Logan and his relationship with Rory than I've been about almost any other character/relationship ever---I go from loving him to disliking him to everywhere in between!---I think those comparisons between Logan and Lorelai are really apt. A lot of us are used to thinking that Lorelai is wary of Logan because he represents the world she worked so hard to leave behind (and, to be fair, there are a few things about Logan that I think many parents would worry about, like the pilfering of trinkets, the super high risk behavior, his tendency to drink too much when stressed or just bored, his history of sleeping with half of the east coast), but it could also be because she recognizes in him some of the traits and tendencies in herself that she hasn't entirely come to terms with. 

This is unpopular and just plain weird, but Asher was my favorite of Paris's boyfriends. Their relationship was bizarre and uncomfortable but made for some hilarious lines and interesting analysis about why Paris would be drawn to a (much) older man. It just made a strange sort of sense to me. I'm not saying I wanted them to be together forever, but I found that storyline engaging while it lasted. Jamie was a total nonentity and Doyle, while sort of a male Paris in certain ways and therefore probably a logical match, just never quite worked for me. 

[Taryn74]

I liked Doyle with Paris but I totally agree about Asher.  I thought they worked, quite well actually, and I never got an "icky" vibe out of their relationship at all.  It's not as though Paris was 15 when they started dating or anything.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I liked Doyle with Paris but I totally agree about Asher.  I thought they worked, quite well actually, and I never got an "icky" vibe out of their relationship at all.  It's not as though Paris was 15 when they started dating or anything.

I think she was 18, so to me, that she was dating someone old enough to be her grandfather, probably at least suggested Paris was having some serious daddy issues.  I wasn't really sure what we were supposed to think of Asher.  They strongly hinted that Paris was one of a number of college coeds he had dated over the years, suggesting she was more of a flavor of the month, but then they suggested the relationship was real only to kill him off. 

[hippielamb]

I agree, betterthisway. 

I think if Lorelai had gone to college she could have been friends with Logan types. Her break with the Gilmores would have been more gradual, seeing them only on holidays like she did prior to the series. Having Rory gave her the reason to cut off ties with them. They probably wouldn't have forced her into a career she didn't want. I always got the impression they had high hopes for her and believed she was capable of doing great things. 

8 hours ago, betterthisway said:

 They both sleep with other people very soon after breaking up with their significant others as if needing to reaffirm their desirability and just to feel pleasure and more alive. 

 

It's funny that Rory gives them both hell (for different reasons) at their ability to move on quickly. It makes sense since Rory treats sex as a Very Big Deal. I think both Logan and Lorelai use sex as a band-aid for when they are feeling down. 

I think Logan and Lorelai both encourage Rory to step out of her comfort zone and try new things. It's something she needs. Without that challenge or push she would never participate in things. 
 
In some ways Jess is similar to Lorelai in that he has some of the same remarks to things that she does. The big difference is their attitudes. Lorelai is almost always positive, while Jess is angry about everything. We only saw one flashback to teenage Lorelai and she didn't seem particularly angry to me. I think the comparison to Logan is more fitting. 

The only similarity I see between Luke and Rory is they are both introverts. Luke is a lot more sour than Rory is. She's generally more cheerful though it is easy to discourage her. Poor poppet. 

[Aloeonatable]

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'm not sure if this goes here, but while stalking this thread I saw that a lot of people think Lorelai is similar to Jess and decided that I think she's more similar to Logan.

Really, I don't recall people thinking Lorelai was like Jess, but I and others have drawn parallels between Chris and Logan. 

[Qoass]

As said upthread, that he escorted her both to her school semi-formal and that ridiculous debutante ball (in white tie and tails no less) tells me Dean was a catch.  Or a doormat.  But still.  I also thought his relationship with his sister Clara was adorable.  I wish my brother had been as sweet to me.

The best I can come up with for Liz is that she had a great relationship with her equally dissolute girlfriends in town.

Jess could win the Nobel Peace Prize and I would still hate him for stealing one of her books and writing notes in it presumably for her education.

My UO is that Lauren Graham appears to be trying to look like she hasn't aged a second since the show went off the air and it looks weird to me.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Qoass

[Aloeonatable]

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My UO is that Lauren Graham appears to be trying to look like she hasn't aged a second since the show went off the air and it looks weird to me.

The magic of Botox. 

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Jess could win the Nobel Peace Prize and I would still hate him for stealing one of her books and writing notes in it presumably for her education.

While I don't condone his writing in Rory's book, she didn't seem too upset. I also would disagree that it was "for her education," but for an exchange of ideas.

[Qoass]

You want to exchange ideas?  Talk to me.  Don't write in my f--king books.

But that's just me.

[HeySandyStrange]

2 hours ago, Qoass said:

My UO is that Lauren Graham appears to be trying to look like she hasn't aged a second since the show went off the air and it looks weird to me.

She started that back when GG was still airing. Around the time botox became a thing, I noticed the few minuscule lines in Lorelai's face magically disappeared. But I can't blame her, LG is a working actress nearing 50 who probably still has to hustle for jobs. It's hard being an actress over 30 in Hollywood, unless you are Meryl Streep it's like you aren't allowed to age and become not sexy.

 

1 hour ago, Aloeonatable said:

While I don't condone his writing in Rory's book, she didn't seem too upset. I also would disagree that it was "for her education," but for an exchange of ideas.

I'm a pretty big disliker of Jess, but I'll agree this was really one of the lesser of his crimes in my book. It was a pretty harmless way for him to connect with Rory, if a bit cheeky. I didn't even went to give him a verbal smack down over it, which was rare anytime I saw him on my screen.

[amensisterfriend]

I'm a pretty big disliker of Jess,

I'm a complete mess when it comes to Jess. (Quite the poem, no?! ;)) Seriously, he's not my 'type' at all, objectively I dislike a bunch of things about him (though I don't think he's quite as bad overall as some make him out to be!), I have issues with how he acted while dating Rory, I don't blame Lorelai a second for disliking him and especially after he was so awful to her in Nick and Nora, and I'll read anti-Jess analysis and nod along like 'yup, uh huh, that's pretty on point...' But yet part of me will always melt over Jess/Rory, and his scenes in Season 6 as the evolved, slightly happier and less angry but still very HIM Jess are easily among my favorite things about that whole season. (Granted, that's a pretty low bar, but still!) I just can't NOT see this incredibly strong connection and chemistry (and not just sexual chemistry!) between them. They're among the only fictional couples ever that just feel like 'meant to be' soulmates to me despite/because of their many issues and flaws. Like a few other GG opinions I have, I don't even especially want to feel that way, but I honestly can't help myself. If only we could all control which fictional couples we fall for :) 

[FictionLover]

3 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

The magic of botox.

LG also did some work to her mouth quite awhile ago. She had a cute perpetual pout that is gone. I think she straighten her teeth too but I thought her mouth had a given her a unique look and wish she would have left it alone. Why fix it if it isn't broken, like Meg Ryan did.

[Aloeonatable]

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But yet part of me will always melt over Jess/Rory,

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I just can't NOT see this incredibly strong connection and chemistry (and not just sexual chemistry!) between them.

Me too. I don't know if they would have worked long-term, but they just had a palpable chemistry. Whether it was the actors' off-screen relationship translating to on-screen, or what I don't know, but it made them work as a couple for me. 

[amensisterfriend]

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The only similarity I see between Luke and Rory is they are both introverts. Luke is a lot more sour than Rory is. She's generally more cheerful though it is easy to discourage her. Poor poppet.

Heh---yeah, you guys know I love Rory, but her lack of resiliency and inability to take criticism or even much pressure is a pretty major and consistent character flaw, so kudos to the writers for at least showing us the drawback to being the town's (overly?!) adored, super sheltered princess...?! I agree with you that Luke and Rory aren't all that similar and that Rory certainly has a more pleasant demeanor, but other commonalities I see between them is that they're both reluctant to take risks and are averse to change to the point of being paralyzed by inaction sometimes. Neither is able to be too honest with themselves about their real feelings. (One super unpopular opinion I have is that Logan, while often smarmy and arrogant and juvenile in how he parties too hard and jumps off cliffs with drunken idiots and the like, is actually in his own way a lot more emotionally aware and emotionally mature than Rory! I sensed that the S6 version of Jess was as well.) 

One outgrowth of this is that Luke and Rory don't really act to get out of bad relationships, instead waiting for their partners to realize things suck and take action by dumping THEM so they (Rory and Luke) don't have to deal with the guilt of having initiated it, hurting someone's feelings and bringing about such unsettling change. We saw this with Rory/Dean in S2-S3 and then again in S5 and with Luke when it came to Rachel, Nicole and arguably Lorelai in S6. 

Edited July 3, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[fitzcarraldo]

I didn't like about Jess that he ONLY liked Rory, like it was supposed to be a sign of her betterness than others. 

[hippielamb]

9 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

Heh---yeah, you guys know I love Rory, but her lack of resiliency and inability to take criticism or even much pressure is a pretty major and consistent character flaw, so kudos to the writers for at least showing us the drawback to being the town's (overly?!) adored, super sheltered princess...?! I agree with you that Luke and Rory aren't all that similar and that Rory certainly has a more pleasant demeanor, but other commonalities I see between them is that they're both reluctant to take risks and are averse to change to the point of being paralyzed by inaction sometimes. Neither is able to be too honest with themselves about their real feelings. (One super unpopular opinion I have is that Logan, while often smarmy and arrogant and juvenile in how he parties too hard and jumps off cliffs with drunken idiots and the like, is actually in his own way a lot more emotionally aware and emotionally mature than Rory! I sensed that the S6 version of Jess was as well.) 

One outgrowth of this is that Luke and Rory don't really act to get out of bad relationships, instead waiting for their partners to realize things suck and take action by dumping THEM so they (Rory and Luke) don't have to deal with the guilt of having initiated it, hurting someone's feelings and bringing about such unsettling change. We saw this with Rory/Dean in S2-S3 and then again in S5 and with Luke when it came to Rachel, Nicole and arguably Lorelai in S6. 

Yes, there is a passivity in their relationships that makes me want to throttle both of them. Rory I am more forgiving of during the whole Jess or Dean thing because she was a teenage girl and that's how you act as a teenager. I honestly don't know why three beautiful, intelligent women put up with Luke's passivity. It's coming up in the rewatch with Nicole and I know it will make me angry. Worse, the show wants us to sympathize with him, even when he pulls the same thing with Lorelai and I just can't. I would like one person to call him out on his behaviour but of course that won't happen. Liz sort of did it but it didn't seem to get through. 

I think Rory made strides in changing her sheltered, risk averse self by the finale. The safe bet would be to marry Logan (not that he's "safe" but it would give her more stability). I liked that she was ready to do something outside of her comfort zone, and it showed growth from teenage Rory afraid to go to the Chilton dance & Yale aged Rory dropping out after one bad review. She seemed more plucky. I guess we're supposed to take the same character growth from Luke over him buying a boat but I remain skeptical.

[junienmomo]

10 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I honestly don't know why three beautiful, intelligent women put up with Luke's passivity.

These women were pretty messed up themselves. 

Rachel never accepted that Luke's chosen life was equally valid. She only ever wanted him to go with her, to be there while she lived her life. He's lucky that he didn't give in and do that, which should have been plausible because he believed he really loved her before Lorelai came along. Going with Rachel is what would have happened if he had truly been passive outside of retroactive continuity, which invented his extreme passivity so they could extend the number of seasons.

Lorelai was unarguably far more messed up than Luke relationship-wise. If she couldn't keep it within her imagined scenario, she didn't want it and frequently ran away. Luke made several attempts during season one, but Lorelai's response was avoidance and literally running away. Watching the person run away from me would sure make me doubt the potential success of a relationship.

Nicole was mystifying from the start and the marriage was so over the top that it fit only in the framework of the other season 4 idiocy.
She was a successful lawyer who approached Luke, so obviously attracted to him that even Jess noticed it. They were so much not part of each other's worlds that Luke had to study to find ways to take her out. And he did study. He actively worked to find entertaining dates for her, all the while knowing and admitting to Lorelai that it wasn't a serious relationship. Why she stayed with him after she got a clue about Lorelai I don't know, but that's on her. Maybe the sex was that great. She did say that they had lots of fun together.

My conclusion is that I honestly don't understand why Luke didn't run away from Lorelai after so much happened. 

[amensisterfriend]

I think we've been here before...I recognize that tree! (TLFDAY) :)

Seriously, in the battle of whether Luke or Lorelai is more to blame for their relationship woes, there's no real winner---they both made numerous mistakes, neither exhibited the basic communication skills that I'd expect from even an elementary school student, and they just seemed to bring out each other's least likable traits and tendencies more often than not. Aside from a couple of isolated scenes, they generally lacked communication, chemistry, compatibility, connection and any semblance of joy. I'm a huge believer in fans liking whichever couples they happen to like, but L/L's ongoing popularity remains one of TV's great mysteries to me. Even many who say they love them as a couple seem to dislike Lorelai and attack her constantly (or, less often, dislike Luke), admit that their relationship ranged from mildly disappointing to totally dysfunctional and was marred by far too many problems and far too little joy. I just see it as a relationship that didn't work for many, many reasons, starting with a fundamental incompatibility between them. I just can't see their romance as ever making either of them happy and am in a very small minority who finds it kind of tiresome and depressing rather than romantic that they seem to be trying yet again to force some sort of relationship between them to work. 

Hippielamb, yes, I don't get how the women in his lives are so fine with his passive-aggression, temper, relentless and pointless negativity and lack of basic communication skills, but maybe he occasionally built and fixed things for them to make up for the daily dreariness of actually trying to date him, which seems to be the main thing he has going for him as a partner :)  

[junienmomo]

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but maybe he occasionally built and fixed things for them to make up for the daily dreariness of actually trying to date him, which seems to be the main thing he has going for him as a partner :)  

Well, how do you explain Nicole pursuing him and wanting to stop the divorce, explicitly saying that they had a lot of fun together? Also, why would Rachel come back? Why would Lorelai say he was the only man she ever loved?

Luke's witty dry humor counterpoints Lorelai's off-the-wall commenting style. He is the perfect foil for her, a guy who sees through the meant-to-be-humorous BS, knows her flaws and loves her anyway. She does the same in reverse. Lorelai is never down or thinking about dumping him because he's dull. He is 'it ' for her, she is 'it' for him. That's an unbeatable relationship for me. 

I complain in my head a lot about how the showrunners kept them physically apart in season 5. If they had been as affectionate as a TV dating couple would normally be, and they were supposedly so unfit to be a couple, there would have been no need to direct them that way.

[Smad]

I think every person who wanted L/L together had a certain picture in their mind that probably was never going to happen. For me the chemistry worked, they had enough in common (just expressing it in different ways) and the willingness to be vulnerable with each other in a way they weren't with others. Basically often times they already acted like a couple without the sex. However the two of them were dysfunctional enough (due to trauma from childhood and teenagehood) that it was hard for them to maintain long lasting romantic relationships. For me I expected much laughter, angst, break-ups and headbutting due to their dysfunctions. I also expected them to overcome that as a couple. In the hands of a skilled writer this could have been entertaining to the utmost degree. Sadly it was in the hands of ASP, who was booth too talentless to pull that off and too miffed at being forced to put the two together due to dropping ratings.

[CalamityBoPeep]

1 hour ago, amensisterfriend said:

I think we've been here before...I recognize that tree! (TLFDAY) :)

Seriously, in the battle of whether Luke or Lorelai is more to blame for their relationship woes, there's no real winner---they both made numerous mistakes, neither exhibited the basic communication skills that I'd expect from even an elementary school student, and they just seemed to bring out each other's least likable traits and tendencies more often than not. Aside from a couple of isolated scenes, they generally lacked communication, chemistry, compatibility, connection and any semblance of joy. I'm a huge believer in fans liking whichever couples they happen to like, but L/L's ongoing popularity remains one of TV's great mysteries to me. Even many who say they love them as a couple seem to dislike Lorelai and attack her constantly (or, less often, dislike Luke), admit that their relationship ranged from mildly disappointing to totally dysfunctional and was marred by far too many problems and far too little joy. I just see it as a relationship that didn't work for many, many reasons, starting with a fundamental incompatibility between them. I just can't see their romance as ever making either of them happy and am in a very small minority who finds it kind of tiresome and depressing rather than romantic that they seem to be trying yet again to force some sort of relationship between them to work. 

 

For me, it's the mental separation between what ASP chose to write and present on screen, with the characters that I saw developed before it all went to crap. The characters in the early seasons "wouldn't have acted that way" in my mind. I attribute the way they developed after being in a relationship to ASP's resentment and unwillingness to make it work. So, since I tend not to take what she wrote and what was presented on-screen as the sum total of who the characters were, then I'm able to live with the idea that they existed outside of those moments, for lack of a better way of putting it. In my mind, the characters they were in the early seasons continued to exist, but we never got to see those moments they shared any more, due to ASP's choices. She hollowed them out, and basically created pod-characters, that my affection for the previous versions filled in.

It's not like I'm delusional. LOL (I'm not a crackpot!) I understand what I'm doing, by filling in the blanks on my own, and I know that my blank filling is not "canon". But I don't care. I became emotionally attached to the characters that they used to be, and I decided not to let the later trashing of them affect that. I simply don't accept that the story we saw was the actual story that needed to play out. It looks like the creator of the story forcing it into the direction it took due to her own laziness, lack of imagination, or angst. In other words, all that you've attributed to Luke and Lorelai, I attribute to ASP. 

(I also don't work that hard any more to fill in characters on shows. Now, if I see creators driving their characters to untenable and stupid plot points, I just bail on the show. It's too heartbreaking to see more in the characters than the creator is able to deliver. It makes my tv watching much more satisfying to no longer do more work than the people actually writing it do.) 

I'm not saying that's the way it should be looked at, either. I'm just trying to explain the "mystery" that you've identified. :-)

 

42 minutes ago, Smad said:

I think every person who wanted L/L together had a certain picture in their mind that probably was never going to happen. For me the chemistry worked, they had enough in common (just expressing it in different ways) and the willingness to be vulnerable with each other in a way they weren't with others. Basically often times they already acted like a couple without the sex. However the two of them were dysfunctional enough (due to trauma from childhood and teenagehood) that it was hard for them to maintain long lasting romantic relationships. For me I expected much laughter, angst, break-ups and headbutting due to their dysfunctions. I also expected them to overcome that as a couple. In the hands of a skilled writer this could have been entertaining to the utmost degree. Sadly it was in the hands of ASP, who was booth too talentless to pull that off and too miffed at being forced to put the two together due to dropping ratings.

Yes. This.

[Taryn74]

My personal yardstick for measuring a "good" romantic relationship is -- do they make each other a better person?  Do their strengths and weaknesses compliment each other, rather than compete with each other?  And to me, that's why L/L work.  Was Luke sour and curmudgeonly at times?  Yes.  But he acknowledged that and he even looked to Lorelai to help him remember to not always be that way.  Was Lorelai too flighty and whimsical sometimes?  Yes, but Luke grounded her.

It may be an old fashioned view of marriage, but I really do believe two people are supposed to "complete" each other, and IMO L/L do.  That's why I've always been, and always will be, a L/L fan.

[JaggedLilPill]

I think that what makes L/L work is those facets of their personality that others may get tired of, i.e. Luke's ranting and Lorelai's babbling, they find endearing. Lorelai likes ranting Luke and even when they were just friends, I think back to "One Has Class and the Other One Dyes," when she finds the Butch picture and he walks away and sits on the bench while she's still poking fun at him, I don't know if it was in the script or not, but you see Luke smiling in spite of it. They don't want to change each other, although I am sure Lorelai wanted Luke to be more communicative after finding out about April, and I think that is extremely important.

I love Luke building Lorelai the skating rink and telling her that he doesn't want her to hate stuff. And even though Luke misinterpreted it, albeit due to Lorelai's not so great communication skills, I thought it was sweet that Lorelai didn't want Luke to lose the part of himself that enjoyed camping and the woods, etc, just because they were together.

I would have enjoyed more affectionate scenes, but I think the way they were portrayed worked for them. I think you can tell how deeply they care and love each other in the small gestures they make. For example, Luke getting the TV for Lorelai to watch when she stayed over. Or Lorelai buying Luke's dad's boat - even though that was an argument at first - proved that she cared enough about Luke to not let him throw away something that was meaningful to him in a moment of rashness on a day where Luke should not have been making emotional decisions anyway.