The Books vs. The Show: Comparisons, Speculation, and Snark

[peacefrog]

Frank and the Reverend?

Close, Frank and the ghost right?

[bluebonnet]

Close, Frank and the ghost right?

Oooooooh.  Forgot about that one.  lol.  I was thinking of Claire imagining Frank and the Reverend finding the abandoned car when they went out to look for her.  

[Tif]

BJR and Jamie

[MedievalGirl]

Since they show a ring going on Claire's hand in the previews, maybe it is the pearls Jamie goes to get at Castle Leoch (rather than a ring) that precipitates the huge argument and major kiss and makeup scene. 

[absnow54]

In the books Jamie puts his father's ring on Claire's finger during the actual ceremony and then she promptly returns it after,

[ihartcoffee]

http://www.fashionnstyle.com/articles/25738/20140916/outlander-news-tobias-menzies-dishes-on-black-jack-s-twisted-affair-violence-obsession-jamie-fraser-spoilers.htm

Interesting article about Frank. Has some spoilers.

[peacefrog]

Hmmm. I'll put this in spoiler tags because it is a possible spoiler about the show.

We will see him at Culloden at the end of season 1?

[thingamajig]

I think someone is confused about where Book 1 ends.

[mybabyaidan]

Maybe they do a

tease or something to show the future of what COULD happen if Jamie and Claire don't stop the uprising?  That's all I can think of since Culloden doesn't even really happen until the end of Book 2.

 

I am not sure these need spoiler tags since it's speculation, but just to be safe.

Edited September 20, 2014 by mybabyaidan

[Pogojoco]

If I were running this show....I think I would end Season 1 post-witch trial and when Claire tells Jamie she's traveled through time. Her choosing to stay and them leaving for Lallybroch is the end. Season 2 picks up with Jenny and Ian for a little bit, and the capture and leaving for France/healing of Jamie happens in the second half of second season. Season 3 starts with them in France, doing all the trying to stop Culloden, Claire pregnancy stuff and her leaving him through the stones. People think Jamie is going to his death.

 

Brianna being introduced happens start of Season 4. Flashbacks could be a little different, Claire alluding to things that happened, all the searching for what happened to Jamie (showing Culloden stuff, fate of various other Scots we've met) and then halfway through, Claire going back could be story line A and the Brianna stuff could be story line B. 

 

If the show doesn't get to Season four, I don't care so much because the first two books are my favourite of the series anyway. I don't think rushing through the first two books is the right call. They could go the Game of Thrones route, where they  aren't afraid to rearrange a bit and aren't strict in the "Book 3=Season 3" sense. 

Edited September 20, 2014 by Pogojoco

[peacefrog]

Maybe they do a

tease or something to show the future of what COULD happen if Jamie and Claire don't stop the uprising? That's all I can think of since Culloden doesn't even really happen until the end of Book 2.

I am not sure these need spoiler tags since it's speculation, but just to be safe.

Could be Edited September 20, 2014 by peacefrog

[mybabyaidan]

Could be

Claire telling BJR the date of his death and then a visual? Most likely this article author wrote it wrong.

I believe this season is just Book 1(which is still filming but almost done) and next is just Book 2.

 

Oh, I like that theory.  I forgot about that!

[bluebonnet]

I really missed Jamie and Claire talking about Frank and especially Jamie talking about honesty.  In a way, this felt more real because Jamie's speeches about her first husband and honesty/secrets tipped over into too-good-to-be-true.  I like that they were both as honest as they could be by implied mutual agreement.  It might also make more sense for Claire to have been able to go forward with this if she mentally set Frank aside.  It felt less like "fuck or die" and more like "this sucks but we're in this together, just the two of us."  However, I always did like that Jamie had a sort of respect for Claire's memory of Frank.  I miss that and I'm hoping it gets included somewhere.

 

Also, can I just say that the entrance of the pearls was absolutely perfect.  I liked it better.  Plus, it was super sexy and so tender.  

Edited September 21, 2014 by bluebonnet

[Petunia846]

I'm grumpy about the rings (both of them) and the pearls still (I'm sorry!), but I also agree the loss of the conversation about Frank made me sad. They changed the bit about the chapel also being where Claire and Frank got married, which doesn't bother me, but that conversation about honesty and respecting Frank's memory needs to happen sometime.

 

I didn't mind the way he gave her the pearls, that was sweet, but they were not at all what I pictured. I haven't had a chance to go back and look at the book, but am I crazy? That looked like something from the 1920s, the long long string, where as I pictured something more like a choker, and also with some gold beads mixed in and some parts that dangled down. These were just pearls. Meh. Maybe I'm remembering the description wrong. I hate to be so negative, but it bugs me, because I always thought the point of them in the book was that they were a distinctive object, which is how Claire could give them to Bree as proof of her story, where Bree could go look at Ellen's painting in the museum and recognize them, and then later where Bree could plop them down at Lallybroch as proof of her story too. Whatever. I give up on that.

 

With the rings, I couldn't believe that Claire took her gold ring off. That bugged me. And I don't know what this key business is, but it had better come to something really good later, because I liked Diana's version of the ring a lot and I don't see why they had to mess with it.

[absnow54]

And I don't know what this key business is, but it had better come to something really good later, because I liked Diana's version of the ring a lot and I don't see why they had to mess with it.

I think it was the key to Lallybroch, which I kind of love.

[WatchrTina]

 

Maybe I'm remembering the description wrong. I hate to be so negative, but it bugs me, because I always thought the point of them in the book was that they were a distinctive object, which is how Claire could give them to Bree as proof of her story, where Bree could go look at Ellen's painting in the museum and recognize them, and then later where Bree could plop them down at Lallybroch as proof of her story too. Whatever. I give up on that.

I totally agree.  Those pearls were completely wrong.  I remember the pearls in the book as being distinctive and I assumed they were not round (there are pearls that are irregular in shape and thats always what I imagined because Jaime says "The are just Scotch pearls" implying that they are less valuable that the perfect round pearls you might obtain in London.)  So the pearls, to me, were a flaw in an almost perfect episode.  I like the addition of Dougal's proposition because it surprised (well, shocked) me and I was fine with the change in the ring because I creates a mystery for a book-walker like me (though I'm fairly sure absnow54 is right and that was the key to Lallybroch.)

Edited September 21, 2014 by WatchrTina

[thingamajig]

I just looked up the section with the pearls.  They're described as a short strand of "baroque" pearls (I assume irregular shaped like freshwater pearls) with gold beads as well, and smaller pearls hanging down off the main strand.

[mybabyaidan]

That still looks like a temporary ring to me.  I still think he'll get her the silver one when they return to Leoch.  It's too important a ring for it to be that last minute mess.  I mean she doesn't remove it for 20 years, and the inscription is important as well. 

 

I did miss the snake dialogue though.  :( 

 

I think they still can sneak in some missed stuff tonight.   I can see the Frank stuff come up when Jamie sees the gold ring back on her finger.

[WatchrTina]

 

I think they still can sneak in some missed stuff tonight.   I can see the Frank stuff come up when Jamie sees the gold ring back on her finger.

At some point Jamie has to console Claire, telling her not to be afraid because "There's two of us now."  That is one of the best lines in all eight books.  They cannot leave it out.

Edited September 21, 2014 by WatchrTina

[thingamajig]

At some point Jamie has to console Claire, telling her not to be afraid because "There's two of us now."  That is one of the best lines in all eight books.  They cannot leave it out.

Yes, I think that may be my favorite line from the books.

 

On another note, I'm sad they didn't keep the bit about Claire and Frank also getting married in that church.  I was expecting some interspersed flashbacks like they did in the castle.

[seaELare]

Everything Petunia said.

I will admit I Iiked the structure of the episode and they did hit all...most of the bullet points (favorite lines from the book) but a lot just didn't feel "right". So many times Jamie came across less virginal and naive and more like a man who's been here before.

Was seriously disappointed in the wedding gown and Jamie's blown out with a round brush wedding hair.

[annlaw78]

 

I did miss the snake dialogue though.  :(

In one of the cast interviews, Sam mentioned an audition scene was a post-coital scene involving him talking about snakes, so maybe it will show up later?

 

 

Jamie's blown out with a round brush wedding hair.

I get they wanted to present Jamie as "cleaned up," but the overly styled hair and make-up were rather distracting.  

Edited September 21, 2014 by annlaw78

[WatchrTina]

 

I get they wanted to present Jamie as "cleaned up," but the overly styled hair and make-up were rather distracting.

That bothered me too when I first saw him at the start of the episode (and in the previews last week) but once I saw him in his wedding finery, it made sense.  And of course his hair was back to its naturally tousled condition by the end of the episode and I rather enjoyed seeing it become, "un-styled" so I'm okay with it now.

[NJ RadioGuy]

Although I generally loved the adaptation of The Wedding from the book, I was really sad that they didn't have her marry Frank in the same-but-old church. That was quite an unnecessary deviation to me and something that would have been far more poignant.

 

As an aside, I wish the mods would set up episode threads for sullied viewers, but only pertaining to material thus covered in the show. I just finished book 1 tonight and wanted to discuss the church issue in the right venue, but I also got a massive dose of spoilage just a few posts back.

 

Does anybody know how many episodes are in the back half of the season and when they're supposed to be televised? They're really taking their time so far, with 7 hours of screen time only progressing roughly a third the way through book 1.

 

There is some seriously dark and extremely disturbing material to come and I wonder how much of this they'll tackle, how much they'll cut out, or worse, what they'll actually show. And if they only have another 8 hours to complete the first book, I don't see how they can do it justice and keep the same pacing they have going now.

[Shorty186]

Well, I was VERY happy to see the pearls and liked how they were presented. I didn't remember the exact description of them, but I definitely thought they were too long. I hope Jamie will still end up giving Claire the other ring, otherwise, what will the writers create in its place? There's no reason to change something so important like that.

 

I actually liked the change of Claire and Frank's wedding, firstly because it showed a contrast between Frank and Jamie, without painting Frank in a negative light. Not that I love Frank or anything, but it's very obvious that the writers don't need to make Frank look bad in order to make Jamie look good. He looks good all by himself :) And secondly, because I always thought it was too coincidental that Jamie and Claire would get married in the exact. same. church. as Claire and Frank. Time travel through stones and seriously HOT 23-year-old virgins I can believe, but I draw the line at a coincidence like that.

[ohhellsyeah]

I loved the episode, but there was definitely some dialogue that I missed. Didn't Diana say on either twitter or facebook that some of the missing dialogue would turn up in later scenes? I agree that "there's the two of us now"is one of the best lines of the series. It needs to be on the show but I can wait.

[Glaze Crazy]

I'm hoping there is some great story to the key that Jamie had made into the wedding ring.  I know the book one with the celtic knot design sounded ideal for the story, but I think it was really the message he had engraved inside that was the romantic symbol.  We will probably find the same message was engraved into this ring.  Plus, maybe this will let us skip the rough sex scene after the "Meeting Laoghaire" fight.  I know it's been discussed here already so maybe this is their "out" on that particular scene.

[Rekilt]

Well, I didn't like the changes this time around.

1. I always liked that Jamie gave her his father's ring and his mother's pearls. And I think the scene with the L girl (typing her name puts me in a bad mood) and ring is a very important and pivotal moment. It's when claire and the rest of us are shown how truly invested in this marriage Jamie is. So I'm not happy about this change.

2. The pearls do not look like the book description. They aren't the unique one of a kind instantly RECOGNIZABLE pearls that play an important part latter in the book.

3. I always like the creepiness that Claire and Frank's wedding was at the same church as Claire's and Jamie's. Didn't like the change. Except it did reinforce that the time claire and Frank actually spent together was very brief and whirlwind.

4. the scene with Dougal, harrumph. And that's all I'm going to say to that

Edited September 21, 2014 by Rekilt

[Tatler]

It was bits of conversation missed out that I missed too - especially the bit about being honest but having secrets, which has always been absolutely pivotal to their relationship. I also missed the bit where Jamie tells Clare that part of the reason for marrying her was because he wanted her - I know it's obvious, but it's also key to Clare's reaction later on the wedding night (imo).

The additions were fine, if unnecessary. I'm going to trust them with the ring....... But the pearls were totally wrong.

That aside I thought the pace was good and mostly it worked.

[WatchrTina]

I am 99.9% delighted with the episode but this thread was created to give us a safe place to grump about the changes so here goes.  

 

Claire didn't faint.  Jamie didn't say "Bad as that, is it.?"  I actually didn't miss it in the episode but that scene is reprised later in the book series (Book 3) in a VERY critical scene -- the scene I go back and read over and over.  So I guess that future scene will be different too.  Oh well, I can't whine now about what might happen in season 3 (and based on the strength of this episode ALONE I am now certain we will be getting a season 3.)

Edited September 21, 2014 by WatchrTina

[Petunia846]

Yes, that was another thing I forgot to mention. Maybe there'll be more wedding day flashbacks later and they can reminisce about that.

[SandyToes]

Someone made a wonderful point (here or in the episode thread - can't find it now) that the ring made from the key now gives Jamie secrets, too. I kind of liked that twist. In the book, it seemed like Claire had secrets, and Jamie just wasn't sharing all the details. This may bring a little equity in the "you don't have to tell  me everything, but just be honest" discussion.  Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Nidratime]

I really liked this past episode and having read the books such a long time ago, I've forgotten too many details to be disappointed in one thing or another not happening -- although hearing others bring up little things that they wish had been included does shake my memory a bit.

 

Still ... I want to discuss next week's episode a bit, if we can. Can anyone remind me what they can possibly make be the 1/2 season break in the narrative? What I mean is, what could be the cliffhanger or natural break to lead people to hang on for the hiatus? As I've heard discussed in one of the many podcasts being done for this show (not Ron's podcast), the producers and writers didn't necessarily know at the time they were making the show that STARZ would cut it in two like this. So, they may not have expected months and months to pass after the airing of episode 8. Can anyone recall what happens next that would allow for a good potential 1/2 season break?

[absnow54]

I thought they were probably breaking with Jamie rescuing Claire from Ft William, but given how much they're looking to jam in the episode -- including a Frank side story that didn't exist in the book -- I think they'll end with Claire in the copse realizing how close to Craig na Dun she is and whether or not she'll run.

[Tif]

I equate Claire wrapping the plaid around the two of them as her version of "There's the two of us now." Although I don't think it was conscious on her part.

I was disappointed that the conversation about Frank didn't happen as the lack of it didn't make Jamie apart to be as observant as he is.

[WatchrTina]

Well, my magical powers failed -- we did not get the scene where Claire has a bad dream, cries out in her sleep, and Jamie leaps from the bed (nekkid) with his dirk drawn.  I wonder if we'll get it on the second night they spend together?  I took note of the fact that at the very start of the episode, when Claire is waiting in the bridal suite at the dressing table and Jamie walks in, he is carrying his dirk and sword -- as though he made a particular point to make sure he had his weapons with him, even on his wedding night.  All kidding aside, it isn't just that I want to see Jamie nekkid (though, obviously I do) it's that in the book that moment reveals to Claire that Jamie has concerns he has not yet shared.  She understands that he's hiding from both the redcoats and the Watch, but that scene in the book reveals that he does not feel safe even when surrounding by MacKenzie men.  In the episode they hinted that Jamie has secrets with the introduction of the key-ring (which I did not like) but they have yet to make clear that Jamie sleeps with a dirk in his hand because he feels threatened by his own kin.

[Nidratime]

In the episode they hinted that Jamie has secrets with the introduction of the key-ring (which I did not like) but they have yet to make clear that Jamie sleeps with a dirk in his hand because he feels threatened by his own kin.

 

 

I don't know. I think they've been making clear, through the season, that Jamie's relationship with his own family is very "complicated," and they don't all have his best interests at heart.

[Athena]

As an aside, I wish the mods would set up episode threads for sullied viewers, but only pertaining to material thus covered in the show. I just finished book 1 tonight and wanted to discuss the church issue in the right venue, but I also got a massive dose of spoilage just a few posts back.

 

Does anybody know how many episodes are in the back half of the season and when they're supposed to be televised? They're really taking their time so far, with 7 hours of screen time only progressing roughly a third the way through book 1.

 

This topic covers all of the books and the show. If you want to discuss the show as it pertains to book one, there is a book 1: Outlander/Cross Stitch topic which does not spoil beyond the first book. Show talk is allowed in all the threads.

 

There are a total of 16 episodes. Next week is the mid-season finale. 

[WatchrTina]

I think I spotted another bit of fan service.  When Jamie is lying there after the "consummation" his finger is doing that tapping thing it does whenever he is concentrating.  Cute that.

[Rekilt]

New morning and I will add to my first post on changes I dinna like:

5. Claire Not fainting

6. One of my 5 all time favorite quotes," there are things I canna tell you, at least not yet. And I'll ask nothing of ye that ye canna give me. But what I would ask of ye---when you do tell me something, let it be the truth. and I'll promise ye the same. We have nothing now between us, save respect---perhaps. And I think that respect has maybe room for secrets, but not for lies. Do you agree?" I always took those words as their true marriage vows.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Rekilt

[Thalia]

Does it bother anyone else that Jamie seems to call the New Mrs. Frasier "Claire" a lot more than he does "Sassenach?"  When I say "bother," I'm not calling for anyone to be flogged, but Sassenach is such an endearment in the books that I'm finding it odd.   I've been wondering if they'll move more into it as they fall more into love.   There is a line somewhere in the books where Claire notes that he mainly calls her by her real name when he's sentimental or angry.  

[justmehere]

It stood out last night when he did call her Sassenach, (telling her to go back to the room), which definitely highlighted its absence. I thought maybe he was enjoying what he saw as the privilege he had now of using her given name. Previously, Mistress Beauchamp was too formal, and Sassenach was a way to be less so (it also seemed playful) without the extreme familiarity of calling her Claire. Now he's free to use her given name, but hopefully Sassenach will become more of an endearment. (Did he call her Claire at all before the wedding? If so, it seems it was rare.)

[Tif]

I think I spotted another bit of fan service. When Jamie is lying there after the "consummation" his finger is doing that tapping thing it does whenever he is concentrating. Cute that.

I noticed that! I actually pointed at the TV and yelled "His fingers!" No one was in the room with me.

Edited because autocorrect.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Tif

[Dejana]

Does anyone have the description of Claire's dress in the book? I'm remembering it as brown and cream and having a lot of buttons, maybe? I'm sure the show wanted to go with a look that was closer to what contemporary eyes would consider "bridal", though in those days, it was customary for a woman to marry in her nicest dress, whatever its color. I think they chose to draw a parallel between the two weddings with Claire's attire, than having her marry in the same church both times. It was probably easier to film and maybe Ron Moore was in the camp of it being a bit too much of a coincidence.

[Thalia]

I believe that he called her Claire when they were discussing the marriage in the last episode, and also when she surprised him sleeping outside the door.  But I haven't gone back to check.   I've heard it enough that it had me wondering.   I also haven't gone back to check the book to see if he called her Claire very often before they married.  It would be easy enough.  I have it in hardback and kindle.   And in a couple of paperbacks that I keep around to loan to anyone who listens to my fevered ravings long enough to consent to read it, if only they had a copy... oh wait!  And here one is!  :-) 

 

ETA, the dress was brown and cream and yellow.  But Book!Claire has brown eyes, and maybe they thought those colors weren't as flattering to blue eyed TV!Claire.  

Edited September 21, 2014 by Thalia

[Nidratime]

I think Jamie also called her Claire at that time she tripped over him in the stable when she was trying to escape Castle Leoch. Jamie called her Sassenach then, and she took offense. When he was apologizing, I believe he called her Claire.

[thingamajig]

He called her Claire when he was telling her to MYOB during Rent, too, I think.

[WatchrTina]

He did say "Stay out of it Claire" in that MYOB scene in "Rent" but first he said "What were you thinking, woman?"  I don't recall him ever calling her "woman" before but then that is also the first time I can think of where he's chastising her for something.

Edited September 21, 2014 by WatchrTina

[justmehere]

I stand corrected about him not using her name! Heh. However, I would still say they were specific events as opposed to casual usage. Assuring her that he wasn't insulting her by calling her Sassenach, impressing upon her how serious he was in the MYOB scene, and, I don't know about the one outside her door. I'd have to go back and watch that one. Discussing marriage -- well, that was the start of a different relationship between them and so it seems appropriate. I do think he saw it as a special thing. How about in the book? I can't remember when or whether he used her name in the book before the wedding.

[thingamajig]

No I think he calls her Sassenach way more than he calls her Claire in the books.  So I agree that as a book reader it sounds kind of weird.  But in the show we've seen him call her Claire quite a bit compared to how often he's said Sassenach.