S10.E23: Brother's Keeper

[raytch]

You were saying that the dark side is always there but the moral compass controls the darkness.  So if you remove the moral compass/filter/whatever it is that keeps the dark side in check that Dean's dark side is really just that douchebag POS.

 

I'm going to have to rewatch that scene because it just doesn't comport at all for me with what they have established about Dean. To me there is nothing to take away from  Dean calling a dead scantily clad teen girl a whore. or having her father call her a slut or Dean saying she dressed like a skank to get validation, because it's his dark side.

 

I  understand what they were attempting here with Dean calling out the family for being controlling parents but either way it's two men judging this teen girl for being sexual and that just is not how Dean has EVER rolled and it's awful and confusing for this viewer.  I mean I can see Dean thinking "Hey Rose, maybe you don't want to chill with these douchebags" but I really can't fathom him sitting there wagging his finger at her for dressing in a short skirt and thinking "oh you are just such a little skank".  It's gross.

 

It was just a totally problematic thing and I'm going to have to noodle more on what the hell they were thinking. 

 

The moral compass is not a filter as much as it's a balance scale.

 

I could be just trying to convince myself that they didn't completely waste his character but this was what I took from this episode and this season overall.

It's an interesting place where Dean went but there was some bad writing that made it not click as much as it should have.

 

The whore/skank comment is gross indeed. There's no doubt about that. I just felt like the first time was for shocking the viewer and the second time it was more or less in context, since the father did seem like a not very nice person.

 

Here's to hoping for a more coherent season 11!

[raytch]

Okay, I've been pretty negative on this episode but here the things I actually liked.

 

Jared rocked that final scene. I often find Jared's cry face overwrought but this was beautiful and understated and I felt it was Sam crying and not Jared. 

 

I loved Dean's just awful, wrecked self in the hotel room scene. But can someone explain how the fuck Jensen can make his face just shift like that from being this cold hearted ruthless thing desperately trying to rub out the damn spot and then look like a lost little boy in like 3 seconds and back again to punching the face that he hates? That was just incredible work. Give that man a frakking Emmy already!!!! ( I know, I know)

 

It's the curse of being on a CW show!

 

Though the network did get 2 nominations last year for The 100 and The Originals, minor categories though, special effects and hairstyling (which I'm sure only happened because of Elijah's perfect hair).

[Aeryn13]

Nothing about the episode holds together IMO.

 

Death wants Dean to kill Sam so Sam won`t interfere with Dean`s - willing - banishment and more importantly fuck with the Mark, thereby releasing the "Darkness". He does not think, it could be explained to Sam that fucking with the Mark is out of the question and he has to promise to let Dean go to his willing banishment. Dean agrees with that entire assessment. And Sam agrees with it as well. He is willing to be the little sacrificial lamb but apparently not willing to say "wow, no really, I promise to leave it alone".

 

So everyone is aware that everyone else will sell the fucking world down the river for their brother?

 

And then Sam makes this appeal to Dean that he can come back to himself with the photos. Like where, in his outer space time-out box? Of course, all the while Sam knows that the spell to remove the Mark is ongoing. He doesn`t mention it or call it off. Death SHOULD know as well and put an immediate end to it. He doesn`t either. Dean has no idea.

 

So even IF he had killed Sam, it wouldn`t have mattered a hill of beans because the Mark was coming off two seconds later and the Darkness would be released. That action was put in motion and never stopped. Not killing Death wouldn`t have made any difference either. It was literally pointless what either of the three characters did in that scene. Rowena, Crowley and Cas determined the outcome. Away from them.

 

Dean, Sam and Death could have sat down and ate the food and the Darkness would be released. Sam could have killed Dean instead and the Darkness would be released. Death could have killed them both and the Darkness would be released.

 

This was a scene in the Finale with the leads and a big wig character like Death and it didn`t even need to fucking be in the episode because it never once had any bearing on the outcome of said Finale. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by Aeryn13

[oliverwendell]

I agree with most of what's been said about this episode, both the bad and the good.  But my personal takeaway is this:

 

In Swan Song, the love of two brothers saved the world.

 

In Brother's Keeper, the love of two brothers destroyed it.

 

That's the difference between Original Recipe Supernatural and what Carver's serving us, and I gotta say, I'm not a fan of that change.

Edited May 21, 2015 by fourteenwords

[catrox14]

I agree with most of what's been said about this episode, both the bad and the good.  But my personal takeaway is this:

 

In Swan Song, the love of two brothers saved the world.

 

In Brother's Keeper, the love of two brothers destroyed it.

 

That's the difference between Original Recipe Supernatural and what Carver's serving us, and I gotta say, I'm not a fan of that change.

 

And what's shittier is that I can't figure out if the brothers being willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good was what they really wanted us to root for or for one to not kill the other. 

 

As for Sam not calling to stop the spell, I suspect the explanation from TIIC is that it was happening at the exact same time as the boys killing Death, so Sam wouldn't have been able to stop it anyway.  Weaksauce.

[ulkis]

Well, put me down as an annoying fangirl because I am all about their codependent relationship. Give me Sam and Dean crying over each other and doing anything and everything for each other and I'm happy. Or just give me that episode of the two of them sitting in a laundromat talking and playing cards that Jensen wants. I'd be all about that.

 

I would absolutely watch that. Because that's way different from the usual "you were mean to me! I was mean to you! I had to save you! You had to save me!" stuff that's been overplayed for years now.

 

Listen to Jensen, writers.

[catrox14]

So, okay, if the Book of the Damned was calling to Dean and wanting him to do bad things.....what does that mean now? Was it because the BotD was trying to keep Dean's finger in the dike of darkness? 

 

Carver has lots of splainin' to do.

Also, why did Sam hit Dean in the first place? Was he trying to smack some sense into him?

[catrox14]

I mean did Sam really think he would beat Dean in a fight without demon blood? OH MISSED OPPORTUNITY !

[Zalyn]

Nothing about the episode holds together IMO.

 

Death wants Dean to kill Sam so Sam won`t interfere with Dean`s - willing - banishment and more importantly fuck with the Mark, thereby releasing the "Darkness". He does not think, it could be explained to Sam that fucking with the Mark is out of the question and he has to promise to let Dean go to his willing banishment. Dean agrees with that entire assessment. And Sam agrees with it as well. He is willing to be the little sacrificial lamb but apparently not willing to say "wow, no really, I promise to leave it alone".

[snip]

 

Dean, Sam and Death could have sat down and ate the food and the Darkness would be released. Sam could have killed Dean instead and the Darkness would be released. Death could have killed them both and the Darkness would be released.

 

This was a scene in the Finale with the leads and a big wig character like Death and it didn`t even need to fucking be in the episode because it never once had any bearing on the outcome of said Finale. 

For the whole scene with Death until he was dusted, I expected it to be a gambit for Death to assess how much Sam truly cared about Dean for ... something to resolve the issue. Like Dean had to try everything he could to threaten Sam and dissuade him, and if Sam passed the test, Death would pull some mojo that would split the Mark between them (so they could share the burden) or do something similar that would make it bearable. 

 

I would have greatly preferred for it to just be the three of them chowing down on Mexican food together until the Darkness Apocalypse hit; it would have been more in character for them.

[Aeryn13]

All the ending made me think about was Tippi`s recaps, like "OMG, that fucking cloud that followed them around, that was actually a little part of the Darkness and now it`s free." I knew that cloud was evil.

[rue721]

Stuff I liked:

 

-- Pretty much everything having to do with Rowena. Including her irritation at Crowley's whining. (And even Crowley's whining itself. Crowley, dumbass, she doesn't love you, but you love her, so just deal with it. Not an uncommon story, lol). I especially liked when she had to kill Oscar.

 

-- That Dean made an offering to Death, and it was homemade, lard-fried Tex Mex.

 

-- I really thought for a second there that Dean was going to kill Sam. Especially since he'd just gotten Rudy killed, and Rudy was his flannel-wearing hunter partner in this episode, aka, the obvious Sam-proxy.

 

Why did we only just now learn this interesting stuff about the Mark being a key and about the chaos and the universe?

 

I agree. Why bother to make the Mark interesting in its own right just to immediately get rid of it? Though that's what this show does all the time with characters. Make them likeable or interesting just to kill them.

 

Once it turned out there was an actual reason for Dean to keep the Mark, aside from just the logistical ~dramz of trying/failing to get rid of it, there was an actual conflict. But then that conflict was resolved within the same scene. Pointless.

 

But, most importantly, THE DEANSTER KNOWS HOW TO COOK TEX-MEX!  

And here I thought Dean's idea of cookery was setting the timer on a microwave.

 

I know, that was one of my favorite parts! Dean has cooked in other episodes of the show, so that's not anything that surprising I guess, but he seriously made a whole banquet with homemade tamales? In between killings and summonings, etc? And apparently used lard ("the bad fat") since he made all that food from scratch, and then was bragging about it to Death? Damn, that was kind of funny.

 

At the beginning of the scene, I noticed that the alter he'd set up to summon Death was looking very fancy and well-done, and thought that was funny in itself, but then when he pulled out a bunch of homemade Tex Mex, I straight up laughed.

 

Dean was right. They may have been a force for good at some point, but in recent seasons they tend to make things much worse, for their own selfish ends. See this episode. The world would be much better off with them dead. I wish I would have stoped watching after the lucifer-arc, after the leviathan-arc at the latest. Now I have to live with the memory of this bullshit tarnishing a once great show.

 

That's been true in basically every finale since S8. In S8, they lived so the Gates of Hell would stay open. In S9, Dean came back to life as a demon who ostensibly was going to be a blight on the world (didn't end up doing much but hey). Now they unleashed some existential threat or some shit because they were unwilling to die/kill each other.

 

Something is rotten when it IS obvious that the world would be better off with them dead.

 

And meanwhile, they were trying to kill Abaddon, etc, back in the day because the world is evidently better off with *Crowley* of all people alive and "king." I just don't understand it.

 

Also, Rowena's bullshit about never loving anything. Of course she does, she loves power. She loves being a witch. What was she even trying to play at? I actually thought that Oscar might be a ruse, but then it turned out that she really did still love this random kid she knew from her "host family" 300 years ago. Eh I literally didn't understand it.

 

Though Ruth Connell has been KILLING IT for a few episodes now, and she was the best part of the finale overall imo. I was honestly just straight up rooting for Rowena by the time she was crying over Oscar and stabbing him in the neck, and then siccing Castiel on Crowley.

 

I've slept on it and... nope, still doesn't work.  So much stupid.  But more than that, I'm tired of the Winchesters never getting a win.  I mean, they get small victories, but the big stuff is always followed by something awful.  It's tiresome.

 

I agree, I wish they hadn't brought out ~The Darkness~ right away to try and end on a cliffhanger. It just felt exhausting to have to launch right into another mytharc. I wish that they could have just saved it and let it sneak up on the guys in the early parts of next season.

 

The storylines' pacing was terrible all season, though, so I guess this is just part and parcel. Why is the pacing so bad?

 

I don't understand the girl that Dean rescued being all "YOU COULD HAVE TALKED".  I'm sorry but if that were me and unless I'd  been there long enough to get Stockholder's Syndrome (tm Jason Stackhouse) I would have been all "YES KILL THEM ALL" and I really wouldn't have cared about the collateral damage. Just get my sorry ass out of there.

 

Rudy was there saving her, so she was horrified when the Bad Guys turned it around on him and then stabbed him through the heart. She didn't know Dean from adam. He said that he was saving her, but all that she'd seen him do was horrifying. Watching someone get stabbed to death and lopping off another person's head without blinking. I was worried that she'd say the wrong thing or something and set him off, great that that didn't happen.

 

Stuff I didn't like:

 

Why did Bad!Dean have to be so unlikable? Crowley cracks jokes and has a personality. Rowena's the same. They also both have at least SOME complexity. How come bad!Dean has to be some grim!dark sexist toolbag?

 

That thing with Death caring about Sam dying was dumb, as people have said. Even aside from the "is Death honestly worried about Sam spoiling his plans for Dean to be kept in isolation like The Little Prince?" issue, which I agree is stupid -- Sam is mortal, he'll die eventually anyway. It's not like time has much meaning for Death. Even something like 40 more years of Sam being alive would just be a blip to him, you'd think. But the thing of Death turning to ash with the scythe made NO SENSE to me at all. Because who the fuck reaped Death? With Death dead, how could anybody -- INCLUDING DEATH -- die?

 

Also I guess Crowley and Cas can't be killed now, despite Rowena's spell? Or maybe they can, since Oscar still could? Who knows.

[catrox14]

For the whole scene with Death until he was dusted, I expected it to be a gambit for Death to assess how much Sam truly cared about Dean for ... something to resolve the issue. Like Dean had to try everything he could to threaten Sam and dissuade him, and if Sam passed the test, Death would pull some mojo that would split the Mark between them (so they could share the burden) or do something similar that would make it bearable. 

 

I would have greatly preferred for it to just be the three of them chowing down on Mexican food together until the Darkness Apocalypse hit; it would have been more in character for them.

 

I would have been so pissed off if Sam had been given the Mark in any way, shape or form. I had been predicting that and it would have mirrored them using their blood together to open the Werther Box, but him getting the Mark to share that burden? I would have quite literally thrown my remote at the TV. 

[Zalyn]

I would have been so pissed off if Sam had been given the Mark in any way, shape or form. I had been predicting that and it would have mirrored them using their blood together to open the Werther Box, but him getting the Mark to share that burden? I would have quite literally thrown my remote at the TV. 

The problem is that the writers put this whole situation in a bind - Dean can't die, he doesn't want to keep killing, and oh, now the Mark can't be removed without another host or The Darkness eats everything.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they set this up, but this constant upping of the ante for the Winchesters being put into impossible dilemmas is frustrating for me, and I'm an ethicist who usually enjoys working through these things.

[PepperMonkey]

I cannot believe they killed off Death. What a waste of an awesome character and actor.

 

I hate Rowena even though the actress who plays her really brought it this week. Yeah, I'm sure she'll figure heavily in next season, I guess as the new big bad who the boys, Crowley and Cas will have to team up to defeat. What a letdown. They should probably blow out all the stops and not accept another season, even if it's offered. Although, it's hard to argue with a paycheck, guys.

 

I'm not sure the show is holding Jared OR Jensen back from a bigger career. I love them both, and even though Jensen is clearly the superior actor, they've both had other roles and nothing has quite jelled for them until Supernatural.

 

But I digress; I was really disappointed in the way Sam and Dean reasoned out what they had to do to save the world. Sam didn't have to die as someone else mentioned; he could have agreed he had to let Dean go, but then it wouldn't have had the same impact, I guess...

Dear Gods, the way these writers protray these two as the most hapless badasses on the face of the earth, who continually bring about destruction while trying to do just the opposite. I just don't buy that either Sam or Dean are that stupid as to let that play out over and over again.

 

It's like the writers don't even know these characters who have been around for 10 seasons! How is that possible???!?

Edited May 21, 2015 by PepperMonkey

[catrox14]

 

Rudy was there saving her, so she was horrified when the Bad Guys turned it around on him and then stabbed him through the heart. She didn't know Dean from adam. He said that he was saving her, but all that she'd seen him do was horrifying. Watching someone get stabbed to death and lopping off another person's head without blinking. I was worried that she'd say the wrong thing or something and set him off, great that that didn't happen.

 

That entire scene made NO sense. That was a vampire nest,  just some bad guys. Clearly Rudy messed up and got himself captured. The vampire that was washing the blood off his hands clearly did something to someone in that house, that Crystal probably witnessed....yet she's all for 'negotiations' with a vampire who's holding a knife to the Rudy's throat and Rudy is all" DUDE let's negotiate with vampires!" 

 

Non MoC!Dean would not have bothered with negotiations either IMO. I mean he doesn't screw around with vampires. Dean badly miscalculated on the vamp not being willing to kill his leverage but  Rudy was a hunter and his life was always in danger because of his job.

Edited May 21, 2015 by catrox14

[catrox14]

 

I'm not sure the show is holding Jared OR Jensen back from a bigger career. I love them both, and even though Jensen is clearly the superior actor, they've both had other roles and nothing has quite jelled for them until Supernatural.

 

Have to disagree that nothing was jelling for Jensen. He had a good career on Days of Our Lives . He was regular on Dark Angel before it was cancelled. He was going to have at least 2 more seasons on Smallville until they tapped him for Supernatural. And IIRC it was  down to Jensen and Tom Welling for Clark Kent but they went with Welling. I knew nothing of Jared until SPN. I have to say that as much fun as it would have been to see Jensen as Captain America or StarLord.....what he's done with Dean Winchester is pretty damn remarkable and it's a frakking shame he doesn't get more accolades for his work. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

I guess one of the reasons that I was rooting for Rowena by the end was because she sucked it up and sacrificed Oscar. She wanted her freedom, so she sacrificed whatever/whoever she had to in order to get it. It's not some altruistic thing to want to be unchained and freed (and with a codex in your hands), but it's also a deplorable goal, either. I can basically respect her decision, even though it's not necessarily "the right" thing to do. Also, I didn't think it was necessarily "the wrong" thing to do. It's not like anybody was coming to rescue her, so what was she really going to do but fight anyway, really. Obviously it sucked that she had to kill Oscar, but she'd already given him 300 extra years of life. And at least she tried to do it as gently as possible. To me, it seemed like she genuinely felt bad about the collateral damage (killing Oscar) but figured it was still worth it. And I can't really get too het up with her even about trading a life for a life (Oscar's for hers), since she fighting for her own survival and trying to survive is an individual's perogative.

 

But then Dean didn't sacrifice Sam, and apparently, there's going to be hell to pay. I guess it's good that Dean didn't sacrifice Sam's life for his, but at the same time, he's sacrificing a WHOLE BUNCH of other people's lives for Sam's. Again.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure what the audience's takeaway from that contrast is supposed to be.

 

That entire scene made NO sense. That was a vampire nest,  just some bad guys. Clearly Rudy messed up and got himself captured. The vampire that was washing the blood off his hands clearly did something to someone in that house, that Crystal probably witnessed....yet she's all for 'negotiations' with a vampire who's holding a knife to the Rudy's throat and Rudy is all" DUDE let's negotiate with vampires!" 

 

She was upset that Rudy, who she was looking at as her rescuer, was murdered right in front of her. *Rudy* was "the good guy" to her, and Dean clearly wasn't interested in helping him -- so she didn't know if Dean himself was a bad guy or what. He apparently was uninterested in helping "the good guy," so he was going to be suspect. Also, he was apparently bad enough that he was a "monster that monsters fear" because he was goading and then finally scaring the hostage taker into stabbing Rudy, it wasn't just that he looked on helplessly while Rudy was killed or something. That "boo!" was creepy as hell, and I think it was meant to be.

 

Personally, I didn't think that she was the one who seemed "off" in that scene. Especially because, ordinarily, Dean *would* have tried to keep Rudy from getting killed and would have tried to talk to and maybe trick the vampire into letting Rudy go, he wouldn't have tried to taunt and scare him into stabbing his "partner" -- a human being, trying to rescue another human being -- to death.

 

Even in his state, Dean also felt guilty for it. He was the one who saw Rudy in the mirror and then tore apart his motel room. Even though he was basically out of his mind, he still knew at that point that that wasn't how he would ordinary/ideally want to or actually handle a rescue gone bad.

[supposebly]

 

Also, why did Sam hit Dean in the first place? Was he trying to smack some sense into him?

 

To me, it felt like fanservice, nothing more. Because we like it. It was completely out of the blue. As Aeryn said, the whole scene and Sam offering to be killed was completely pointless considering he knew the mark would be gone in a few seconds anyway. The whole scene was fanservice, nothing more, a few tears, a few punches, there, that's what Carver thinks Supernatural is all about these days.

 

This finale was even more pointless than the season 8 finale and that's saying something.

 

And now we are looking at another apocalypse that they have no budget to pull off or see it resolved within an episode or two next season. As Crowley said last season, it's all so expected.

 

And if they were in any way consistent (hahaha!), no one can die now since Death is dead. Unless he isn't. More pointlessness.

[catrox14]

I guess one of the reasons that I was rooting for Rowena by the end was because she sucked it up and sacrificed Oscar. She wanted her freedom, so she sacrificed whatever/whoever she had to in order to get it. It's not some altruistic thing to want to be unchained and freed (and with a codex in your hands), but it's also a deplorable goal, either. I can basically respect her decision, even though it's not necessarily "the right" thing to do. Also, I didn't think it was necessarily "the wrong" thing to do. It's not like anybody was coming to rescue her, so what was she really going to do but fight anyway, really. Obviously it sucked that she had to kill Oscar, but she'd already given him 300 extra years of life. And at least she tried to do it as gently as possible. To me, it seemed like she genuinely felt bad about the collateral damage (killing Oscar) but figured it was still worth it. And I can't really get too het up with her even about trading a life for a life (Oscar's for hers), since she fighting for her own survival and trying to survive is an individual's perogative.

 

But then Dean didn't sacrifice Sam, and apparently, there's going to be hell to pay. I guess it's good that Dean didn't sacrifice Sam's life for his, but at the same time, he's sacrificing a WHOLE BUNCH of other people's lives for Sam's. Again.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure what the audience's takeaway from that contrast is supposed to be.

 

 

She was upset that Rudy, who she was looking at as her rescuer, was murdered right in front of her. *Rudy* was "the good guy" to her, and Dean clearly wasn't interested in helping him -- so she didn't know if Dean himself was a bad guy or what. He apparently was uninterested in helping "the good guy," so he was going to be suspect. Also, he was apparently bad enough that he was a "monster that monsters fear" because he was goading and then finally scaring the hostage taker into stabbing Rudy, it wasn't just that he looked on helplessly while Rudy was killed or something. That "boo!" was creepy as hell, and I think it was meant to be.

 

Personally, I didn't think that she was the one who seemed "off" in that scene. Especially because, ordinarily, Dean *would* have tried to keep Rudy from getting killed and would have tried to talk to and maybe trick the vampire into letting Rudy go, he wouldn't have tried to taunt and scare him into stabbing his "partner" -- a human being, trying to rescue another human being -- to death.

 

Even in his state, Dean also felt guilty for it. He was the one who saw Rudy in the mirror and then tore apart his motel room. Even though he was basically out of his mind, he still knew at that point that that wasn't how he would ordinary/ideally want to or actually handle a rescue gone bad.

 

I agree that the boo was intended to be scary but I disagree that regular!Dean would have spent much time negotiating with a vampire.  He would have told the girl "I'm here to rescue you straight away". 

 

IMO it was totally pointless to the entire episode. He was seeing Cas' bloody face in the mirror and that should have been enough motivation for Dean's meltdown and decision to drive to a Mexican restaurant in the middle of nowhere to cook tamales and summon Death. LOL this show. 

[millennium]

That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.

[rue721]

I agree that the boo was intended to be scary but I disagree that regular!Dean would have spent much time negotiating with a vampire.  He would have told the girl "I'm here to rescue you straight away". 

 

IMO it was totally pointless to the entire episode. He was seeing Cas' bloody face in the mirror and that should have been enough motivation for Dean's meltdown and decision to drive to a Mexican restaurant in the middle of nowhere to cook tamales and summon Death. LOL this show. 

 

I'm not saying that negotiating with the vampire would have been the most practical plan for getting Rudy and Crystal out of there alive, or that that would have been Dean's go-to ordinarily.

 

But I also don't think he would have just laughed in the vamp's face and let him kill Rudy. If anything, I think he would likely have played along in order to buy some time and figure out a way to get BOTH Rudy and Crystal out of there. Or he would at least have CONSIDERED playing along in order to buy time and come up with a plan. And that's where I think Dean was showing that he was really not himself. Imo it wasn't that he didn't entertain negotiating with the vampire because he didn't think negotiation would save Rudy, I think he didn't entertain negotiating because he didn't give a shit whether he saved Rudy (so to him, the vampire had no leverage in the negotiation).

 

Dean acted like it was stupid of the vampire to even threaten him with killing Rudy, because he didn't actually care at all whether the vampire killed Rudy or not. But ordinarily, the vampire would have been correct to think that Dean wouldn't be OK with seeing Rudy killed, and would have had a reasonably compelling INCENTIVE to play along. (Even if, in a given situation, Dean might have decided it would be impractical or counterproductive to play along, and decided not to, ordinarily he would still have seen what the incentive to playing along -- the vampire not stabbing Rudy through the heart -- would have been, and found it reasonably compelling).

 

Obviously, the girl *did* care whether Rudy was saved. He was there to save *her.* So imo she was saying that she DID think that the vampire had had leverage -- that Rudy's life DID matter -- and how come Dean hadn't seen that? She's some random kid, obviously she's not going to have a handle on what the most practical plan for taking out a desperate vampire would be, so she's not going to know that a negotiation was hopeless in any case. But that's not the issue anyway. The issue is that she saw the threat on Rudy's life as credible leverage, and Dean didn't -- because she cared whether Rudy lived or died and Dean didn't. And she was shocked that Dean didn't. (Rightfully, imo. Ordinarily, Dean isn't a psychopath and WOULD have cared).

[Bruinsfan]

I cannot believe they killed off Death. What a waste of an awesome character and actor.

Watch it be just this particular manifestation of Death, and next season it'll take the form of a wisecracking model/actress who wears low-cut tops and miniskirts.

[catrox14]

 

Watch it be just this particular manifestation of Death, and next season it'll take the form of a wisecracking model/actress who wears low-cut tops and miniskirts.

 

For a show that is considered by some to be so misogynistic and sexist IMO they have largely avoided that trope you list above with important recurring female characters.  To me that would not suit this world and I would be very disappointed if they went that route given there tendency to not go that route to this. They certainly have sassy, strong, sexy / sexual female characters by not the trope you desribe. 

 

Tessa the Reaper - nope. Jeans and shirts

Ruby- jeans and shirts and jackets

Pamela - jeans and tanks or shirts

Jody- jeans and shirts or sheriffs uniform

Donna -jeans and shirts or uniform

Jo- Jeans and t shirts or tanks

Ellen-Jeans and shirts

Lisa - Jeans and  shirts

Charlie - jeans and tshirts

Abbadon - 50s style dresses or slacks and shirts and leather jacket

Rowena - long skirts and dresses.

One hunter chick in 9.2 with Daisy Dukes and tied up shirt but that was silly and roundly criticized

Madison- jeans and slacks

Sarah- jeans, skirts , slacks

Amy Acker - skirts and jeans

Claire - jeans and shirts

Krissy- jeans and shirts

Cassie - jeans and dress slack maybe a skirt.

Bela - skirts, slacks, dresses, jeans

 

When they have scantily clad women it's strippers, hookers or barflys that aren't there to serve much purpose other than be a victim or something.

[dr pepper]

This show is way out of sync. One week, the boys are fighting a bunch of meglomaniac vivisectors-- a storyline that belongs in season 1 or 2-- next they've caused the discorporation of an elemental power and opened a dimensional gateway to a realm of primordial chaos.

I don't know if i can with this anymore. The writers have painted themselves into a corner in the junkroom and knocked down all the boxes.

Hey, God? Wherever it is you went, we get it! We need you to keep stuff going. Even the enemy-- Lucifer and the demons. Even the leviathans, minor deities, witches, vampires, etc. Without you, everything falls apart. Even your greatest angels apparently can't be trusted. You made your point God, you went away and the entire universe went bad. It only cost countless incidents of suffering and destruction. So come back here, you smug, self righteous, sadistic, psychopathic tyrant! Come back, put good and evil back to business as usual, and END THIS SHOW!

[supposebly]

I don't want to watch it again but was there any interesting music apart from the version of Wayward Son?

 

I'm close to hating both Winchesters at the moment, so I need a week or two before I might want to rewatch. I feel very similar to how I felt after the season 8 finale. At some point, them saving each other was endearing and wonderful and poignant. At this point, it's pointless and destroys the bloody world. Why am I supposed to root for them again?

 

 

You made your point God, you went away and the entire universe went bad.

 

Apparently, this is what happens if you leave the Winchesters as the proponents of Fee Will in charge.

 

I would have loved for Dean to actually become Cain, destroying everything in his path, where saving him would have saved the world. Instead, we get Dean not killing Sam because.........?

 

This episode was so bloody pointless.

Edited May 21, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

 

I would have loved for Dean to actually become Cain, destroying everything in his path, where saving him would have saved the world. Instead, we get Dean not killing Sam because.........?

 

I was all set for that to happen, or better yet, Demon!Dean coming back.

 

But I suppose that could still happen. I mean why not? If it's all about The DARKNESS...why not let demon!Dean arise. He doesn't need the Mark to exist. 

 

It was the Mark that wouldn't let him die and we think it's the Mark that made him a demon but what if those were two separate things that happened. I'm very confused.

Edited May 21, 2015 by catrox14

[supposebly]

I think these writers are way too chicken for that to happen. For all the talk how bad he went, nothing really bad happened. Demon!Dean was no more than a somewhat superpowered mysogynistic and hedonistic douchebag.

 

And even in this episode, he was conflicted about it and wanted to sacrifice himself to stop himself. Boohoo.

Edited May 21, 2015 by supposebly

[The Mighty Peanut]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who thinks they ripped off The Nothing from The Neverending Story. Next season on Supernatural...the Winchesters battle for Fantasia.

Edited May 21, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[miles2go]

When they have scantily clad women it's strippers, hookers or barflys that aren't there to serve much purpose other than be a victim or something.

 

 

And that's not sexist?  Strippers, hookers, and barflies are also human beings.

 

In any case, I suspect Bruinsfan was not being literal, simply pointing out that Death could come back with a totally different persona.

[supposebly]

 

Please tell me I'm not the only one who thinks they ripped off The Nothing from The Neverending Story.

 

That and other similar variations of it in various sci-fi stories. This whole thing just jumped genres.

[Bruinsfan]

In any case, I suspect Bruinsfan was not being literal, simply pointing out that Death could come back with a totally different persona.

Oh, I meant it literally, but as a lowest-common-denominator description of Neil Gaiman's Death. Since the show has been ripping Gaiman off since Season 5, and I have zero confidence in the current creative team's ability to come up with something original and, y'know, creative.

[DittyDotDot]

So, apparently you can kill Death?

 

Was Dean's plan to kill Sam a matter of nattering on at him till he died of boredom?

 

I wonder if the Darkness with take the form of a snarky woman with an unfortunate name next season?

 

I wish I was drunk right now...sadly I had no booze to join in on the drinking game. I think it would've helped immensely. Whole lot of stupid, IMO.

[catrox14]

And that's not sexist?  Strippers, hookers, and barflies are also human beings.

 

In any case, I suspect Bruinsfan was not being literal, simply pointing out that Death could come back with a totally different persona.

 

For me,  no I don't think it is sexist because that is a particular type of character that inhabits their rough and tumble world. If you are going to show a barfly chick or a stripper they probably should dress the part which means scantily clad. Just like the female hunters other than miss daisy dukes, dress properly for their work with jeans and tshirts and boots that don't have 5 inch heels.

 

If they put the female hunters in that kind of clothing, yes I would say that is sexist.  YMMV.

Isn't there an entire comic book called The Darkness?  I mean I don't have any problems with the show referencing all kinds of literary things considering they've done it that way from the beginning with urban legends, Judeo Christian mythology, etc etc.

 

It all depends on how they tweak it for their own purposes.

[Demented Daisy]

The Darkness reminds me of the todash space from Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

[oliverwendell]

I need an interview with Carver or Singer, stat.  I need to hear them try to explain this episode.  Then I need them to tell me what they think they're going to do with that giant smoke-blob that supposedly contains all the primordial evil God could fit in his U-Haul and then some.  You know, the universe-devouring force of Chaos their protagonists just unleashed because they couldn't stand to live without each other?  Yeah, that one.  I mean, normally I applaud ambition and go-big-or-go-home storytelling, but if the Supernatural writers room could pull this off in a way that would make me retroactively enthusiastic about this finale I would be shocked.  SHOCKED.

Edited May 21, 2015 by fourteenwords

[miles2go]

Oh, I meant it literally, but as a lowest-common-denominator description of Neil Gaiman's Death. Since the show has been ripping Gaiman off since Season 5, and I have zero confidence in the current creative team's ability to come up with something original and, y'know, creative.

 

Yeah -- I know what you mean.  I'm afraid the series is past its prime.

Not familiar with Neil Gaiman -- just did a quick lookup, and looks interesting.  May take a peek at his work someday.

[miles2go]

QUOTE

When they have scantily clad women it's strippers, hookers or barflys that aren't there to serve much purpose other than be a victim or something.

 

It is the phrase I've put in bold that troubles me. The implication is that such women are throwaway trash that are marked for victimization.  But perhaps I've misunderstood you.

[catrox14]

I need an interview with Carver or Singer, stat.  I need to hear them try to explain this episode.  Then I need them to tell me what they think they're going to do with that giant smoke-blob that supposedly contains all the primordial evil God could fit in his U-Haul and then some.  You know, the universe-devouring force of Chaos their protagonists just unleashed because they couldn't stand to live without each other?  Yeah, that one.  I mean, normally I applaud ambition and go-big-or-go-home storytelling, but if the Supernatural writers room could pull this off in a way that would make me retroactively enthusiastic about this finale I would be shocked.  SHOCKED.

 

I feel like no matter what they explain, I'll be pissed off because it wasn't on screen. As usual, I like to the performances to save the episodes and as stupid as the encounter between Sam and Dean was, it did him my feels.

[catrox14]

QUOTE

It is the phrase I've put in bold that troubles me. The implication is that such women are throwaway trash that are marked for victimization.  But perhaps I've misunderstood you.

 

I think you have misunderstood me.

 

The discussion was about how many of the female characters are dressed in the show and why they might be wearing what they were and how I didn't think they would take a major recurring character like Death into the trope that Bruinsfan was talking about. I referenced why I thought that wouldn't happen. The scantily clad women have typically been in those minor roles and they may also be victims.   That does not equal me nor the show saying they are trash.

[miles2go]

I think you have misunderstood me.

 

The discussion was about how many of the female characters are dressed in the show and why they might be wearing what they were and how I didn't think they would take a major recurring character like Death into the trope that Bruinsfan was talking about. I referenced why I thought that wouldn't happen. The scantily clad women have typically been in those minor roles and they may also be victims.   That does not equal me nor the show saying they are trash.

 

Ah, I see.

Glad we got that cleared up.

Still, a scantily clad Death might be kind of fun.

[rue721]

Wouldn't it be kind of a weird F-U to Julian Richings to kill off Death but then basically immediately bring Death back using a different actor? He's come back a bunch of times now, so I don't think Richings himself was too difficult for the show to work with or to schedule. So if they're planning a bigger part for Death next season, they didn't need to kill him off and replace him, they could probably just have hired him.

 

(Not that I want Death to be a regular, because much as I love Julian Richings-as-Death and am always ultimately happy to see him onscreen, Death makes no sense as a character that the Winchesters would be besties with -- the whole idea is weird, imo).

 

Anyway, it was also shitty that Death "died" while doing a good thing. I mean, he was trying to save the world (from ~The Drakness!~).*** So now I just feel awful that Dean screwed him over and screwed the whole world over, apparently, while DEATH of all "people" was trying to put together a plan to save the world. Also, Dean killing him seemed especially uncalled for imo, because -- not that Dean needs to be OK with sacrificing himself forever and living in some isolated bubble-world, but tbh, Dorothy did basically the exact same thing (imprisoned herself in order to imprison what she was fighting) when she was trying to stop a boring old MotW, the Wicked Witch, so it's not like that particular sacrifice was anything all that out of the ordinary for this show. Dean has also sent himself to Hell for less. So the whole thing...Idk, just feels kind of perplexing and dispiriting to me, I guess. Because I'm weirdly on Death's side there, rather than Dean's? Since Death was trying to save the world and offer Dean a way out? So I was all worried about the Impala when "The Darkness" (Idk if I can handle that name, it's just so silly and overwrought) started shooting fireworks into the desert, but I wasn't worried about Dean or Sam particularly, because I was sort of feeling like it would be poetic justice if they recklessly unleashed "The Darkness" because neither could let the other die, and then "The Darkness" immediately swallowed them both up as its first victims.

 

***And YMMV, but I can't even get on Death's case for demanding Dean kill Sam, because that whole idea made zero logical sense and I don't really understand where he was going with it. For the zillions of reasons mentioned above and also because Death had that whole Teachable Moment with Dean about how you can't just kill people willy nilly, you can only kill them when their number comes up -- because otherwise, the consequences unfurl and change/fuck up the whole world. That was way back in....S6, I think? When Dean was Death for a day.

 

ETA:

Jeez, what a mess of a post! Words are left out, the grammar is all messed up and undecipherable half the time...Sorry about that, guys. Cleaned up what I could.

Edited May 22, 2015 by rue721

[miles2go]

Wouldn't it be kind of a weird F-U to Julian Richings to kill off Death but then basically immediately bring Death back using a different actor? He's come back a bunch of times now, so I don't think Richings himself was too difficult for the show to work with or to schedule. So if they're planning a bigger part for Death next season, they didn't need to kill him off and replace him, they could probably just have hired him.

 

(Not that I want Death to be a regular, because much as I love Julian Richings-as-Death and am always ultimately happy to see him onscreen, Death makes no sense as a character that the Winchesters would be besties with -- the whole idea is weird, imo).

 

 

 

 

 

 

In all seriousness, killing off Death really doesn't make too much sense;  (and I love Julian Richings in the role, too). I think they were going for the shock value.  Hey, we've killed Death!  And there's no more Mark of Cain!  And here comes the Cloud of Ultimate Darkness!  And the Impala is in a rut!  Best Oliver Hardy voice: "And here's another nice mess you've gotten me into."

 

edited to correct error in name

Edited May 22, 2015 by miles2go

[bethy]

Finally got a chance to watch. And ... what?

 

When was the last time Dean and Sam were actually successful in defeating a "big bad" that didn't result in some sort of horrible "consequence"? It seems like there's never a win. Whatever they've done at the end of one season leads to new levels of suck in the next. There's no hope, there's no joy - it's just all dark all the time.

 

I feel like they - Carver, the writers, the producers, whoever - think they're being clever and edgy with all this convoluted talk about what's evil or good or bad and choices and family, but in the end I don't understand what the point is they're trying to make. I don't understand who they want me to root for. I don't understand what happened to the two men I used to find so sympathetic and flawed and heroic, but who now I just find, frankly, mostly mopey and pathetic. 

 

I wish I could quit this show.

[Mick Lady]

So when the Mark of Cain left Dean, the Darkness was able to escape from where God and the Archangels had imprisoned it (cough*island*cough). 

 

Did you have to say that LordBowen? Really? I just recovered from Lost and now you bring up fresh wounds?

 

I know it's been years, but I'm just now losing the anger at that colossal goat fuck.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I actually really liked the episode until they released The Nothing The Kraken The Darkness. And when Cas became a zombie. And when Dean agrees to kill Sam because he might fuck everything up by saving Dean, and then Sam agrees to be killed so Dean can die without worry of Sam killing or not killing him, or something. And when they killed Death with less effort than that vampire rando that Dean killed after his bizarro slut shaming.

So, yeah, kind of an epic clusterfuck. I do love Rowena and Crowley, though.

[catrox14]

LOL thank you MightyPeanut.

Bizarro slut shaming is exactly right.

[Happytobehere]

 

I'm also tired, tired, tired of the Winchesters basically causing unimaginable death and mayhem and horror for a lot of innocent people because they can't bear to let one of the other Winchesters die.  The Darkness, something so powerful that God and an army of archangels was needed to lock up, whose key alone is able to corrupt and twist the Prince of Light (Lucifer), is loose upon the world.  Like Lillith and Lucifer and the 7 deadly sins, and who all else has been let loose over the years.  At this point, it doesn't feel like love.  It feels like monumental selfishness.

I never thought I'd say this but the series finale, which I hope comes next season, has to be both Sam and Dean dying. I used to be able to rationalize the havoc they wrecked by saying they did more good than evil, but that is no longer the case. The truest words spoken on the show was when Dean told Sam they were evil. This show has managed to do what I thought to be impossible, it made me hate Dean and want him to die because at this point, I can no longer argue that he deserves better

[Iguana]

So 24 hours after the season finale and I'm still confused by what the hell just happened.

Dean summoning death to kill him for good and avoid the Mark resurrecting him as a demon makes sense. Death saying he can't do that unless the Mark is shared because the Mark is a lock created by God to keep the original darkness away from the universe and can't/shouldn't be destroyed, makes somewhat less sense but is a cool idea so I'll run with it. Dean (or Death, it's not clear if this was a condition of his) decides it is necessary for Sam to get killed so he doesn't eventually come find Dean and/or fuck up the arrangements death is putting into place for Dean to be put away somewhere safe. Okay, way less sense than the first two parts of the plan but again I'll try to run with it. But I cannot make any sense a tall of why Dean would kill death, much less how Supernatural's version of death could even be killed. There is no fanwank I have read or imagined that can help me here.

And speaking of confusing, can anyone help me understand how the book of the damned could have a spell to remove the Mark if it is so primordial and important to God or why the ingredients for the spell would be things that didn't exist until millions(?) of years after the Mark was created.

And the smoke effects for the darkness reminded me way too much of the demons smoke effects from the end of All Hell Breaks Loose 2 and the leviathan blackness at the beginning of season 7. Nowhere near as cool as the Angels falling to earth at the end of season eight or even the semi smashing into the Impala.

While I am sure my enthusiasm will grow closer to the season 11 premiere date, right now I'm just pretty much meh about the ep and the next season.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Iguana

[catrox14]

So they were in Nebraska right? All I could think about was that old movie 'The Day After' when they launched all the nukes from the Nebraska when the smoke monsters came out of the holes. I also wanted to start playing whack-a-smoky.

[Triceratops]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who thinks they ripped off The Nothing from The Neverending Story. Next season on Supernatural...the Winchesters battle for Fantasia.

If they want to make me cry like the Neverending Story, they could lose the impala in the Swamp of Sadness. 

 

I was liking this season better than 8 & 9 but after Charlie and this episode, I just can't.