S05.E06: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

[Pete Martell]

I think Sophie Turner's interview in Entertainment Weekly made it clear that Sansa didn't know exactly what she'd be in for in terms of the brutality, so I think if she'd known then she would have refused when LF made it seem like she had the choice. (I don't think he would have accepted it if she hadn't wanted to go since she did initially try to refuse anyway.)

 

Unfortunately, as with the sept scene last year, there seems to be a disconnect (to me anyway) in some of how the actor or writer interpreted the scene.

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/17/game-thrones-sansa-ramsay-interview

 

Cogman seemed to take this question very seriously and took a moment to consider his response. “This is Game of Thrones,” he said soberly. “This isn’t a timid little girl walking into a wedding night with Joffrey. This is a hardened woman making a choice and she sees this as the way to get back her homeland. Sansa has a wedding night in the sense she never thought she would with one of the monsters of the show. It’s pretty intense and awful and the character will have to deal with it.”

 

He later said:

 

“Hi all. Not going to comment further but I do want to clarify something from the @EW interview that was conducted on set a few months ago: The ‘choice’ I was referring to was Sansa’s choice to marry Ramsay and walk into that room. She feels marrying him is a vital step in reclaiming her homeland. Not trying to change anyone’s opinion of the scene (negative or otherwise) but that it what I was … Ok, LAST last word. In NO WAY… NO WAY was that comment an attempt to ‘blame the victim.’ If it seemed that way I’m deeply sorry.”

 

To me that suggests the show was trying to say that she did know she would be raped and that this sexual assault is a sign of her "strength" or "determination."

And I don't think Littlefinger is ignorant of Ramsey's nature. 

 

Apparently he knows they're dangerous but didn't realize how dangerous.

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/17/game-thrones-sansa-ramsay-interview

 

The writer producer also confirmed that, for those suspecting Littlefinger might have known about Ramsay’s sadism, that Baelish was definitely ignorant of the situation. “The difference between the Ramsay Snow of the books and the show is the Ramsay of the show is not a famous psycho,” he said. “He’s not known everywhere as a psycho. So Littlefinger doesn’t have the intelligence on him. He knows they’re scary and creepy and not to be folly trusted and it’s part of a larger plan.”

 

This makes me wonder if we're going to end up seeing scenes of Littlefinger being shocked or morally outraged, or if we're going to end up in a situation where we're supposed to want them together because he's less bad than the Boltons.

 

I hope not.

[dr pepper]

When Jaquen said something like "you're ready to become someone else," it made me wonder if they're skipping her adventures as Cat of the Canals and Beth the Blind Girl and getting right to her first asassination mission.  Like next week she'll stalk and kill the insurance underwriter guy, and maybe run into someone else who happens to be visiting Braavos and on her death list...

 

We would also miss the first stirrings of the mindrider power in her.

[Hecate7]

That would be awesome, if they didn't feel the need to resort to the tired and vile "rape is empowerment" trope.  Sansa had PLENTY of other reasons to do this already, and she's suffered PLENTY already to cause this change.  What being repeatedly beaten, torture, degraded/humiliated for months/years, seeing her father killed, having her mother/brother/significant chunk of her family killed or scattered to the winds, having the vile Bolton's control her home, being under the sway of a creeper like LF, being attacked by her crazy aunt/cousin, and having said crazy aunt killed right in front of her, etc.  All that wasn't enough, we had to add a rape unto the pile as well, seriously writers?

 

Did anyone seriously think that a marriage to Ramsey Bolton would result in a non-rape wedding night? Were we expecting Sansa to WANT sex with him? Or was it supposed to go down that Westeros' most sadistic villain, who has had 3 of his lovers dismembered and eaten by dogs, was going to be as patient, guilt-ridden, and empathic as Tyrion? What exactly were people thinking was going to happen after she married this guy?

[dr pepper]

Ramsay dying in his sleep won't satisfy the audience - his death needs to be as painful and terrifying as possible.  Thematically a Stark should be the one to do it. Imagine the thrills if the Brotherhood without Banners is wandering the North for some reason and snags Ramsay - the last scene of the season could be LS unmasking and ordering him hung. 

 

Another difference from the books. In the books, Melisandre kills the leader of the vikings. From hundreds of mils away, that is to say the full width of Westeros, she flicks her finger, and a man with lifetime of experience at crossing a catwalk in the fog is knocked off it. And that's pretty satisfying even without a long suspensful narrative.

 

This incidently rekindles the viking storyline-- the struggle for leadership, the blowing of the horn, what appears to be the beginnings of a raid on old town, and yet another voyage to Essos to woo Dany. All things that probably won't appear in the show.

 

A quiet, undramatic death for Ramsay could be satisfying too. Imagine if he's found having apparently slipped in the bathtub and smashed his head in. Roose would take that as proof he wasn't fit to be a Bolton and throw his body to the dogs.

[dr pepper]

I freakin' loved Tyrion's witty denial of a proportionally-sized wiener, but then laughed even harder at Mr. Eko's needing to find a cock merchant. Holy shit! I picture him checking the Yellow Pages for "COCK MERCHANTS - see also: DICK MONGERS".

 

*Ding*Ding*

 

"Hello. Welcome to the Phalliporium! How may i help you?"

 

"My name is Grey Worm. I have an appointment for a fitting."

 

"Ah yes, we have you listed here. I see you have asked for our Sensory Implantation treatment. That requires a maester and a priest, which is very expensive. I hope the experience is worth it for you."

 

"Just as long as it's worth it for her."

[Avaleigh]

I don't think a death by poisoning would necessarily mean that Ramsay is getting off too easily. I thought Joffrey's death was appropriate; he was in pain, he was scared, it happened in front of people he'd been awful to, and it wasn't instant. 

 

If we do get a Bolton pie moment I can't decide if it would be a bigger deal to have Roose being served to Ramsay or Ramsay being served to Roose. In a way, they're both so fucked up that I could honestly see both men learning the truth about what they've just eaten and being nothing more than mildly amused.

 

Did anyone seriously think that a marriage to Ramsey Bolton would result in a non-rape wedding night? Were we expecting Sansa to WANT sex with him? Or was it supposed to go down that Westeros' most sadistic villain, who has had 3 of his lovers dismembered and eaten by dogs, was going to be as patient, guilt-ridden, and empathic as Tyrion? What exactly were people thinking was going to happen after she married this guy?

 

Even if they did include a scene where Roose advises Ramsay to be gentle with Sansa, I don't think it would be realistic of Ramsay to follow that advice given what we know of Ramsay's character. It couldn't be more clear to me that Ramsay resents Roose hugely and wishes that he could just do his own thing. This guy is a sadistic monster who loves to abuse people. The idea that he wouldn't treat Sansa horribly because Roose warned him not to seems about as unlikely as it gets. 

 

One of the many, many horrible things about that scene was that Ramsay is such a demented psychopath that he probably thinks that he was being low key with Sansa compared to the way he usually is with women. 

[dr pepper]

So pretty much the KL moral is that putting a religion in power (the Red God, the Seven) is a bad idea.

 

The moral is that a comfortably corrupt church, headed by a hypocritical, pervy pope, is safer than a righteous church headed by a pious, clean consience bearing pope.

"COCK MERCHANTS - see also: DICK MONGERS".

 

I think I went to High School with Dick Mongers.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

 

You mean you knew them back when they were still making real music? Before they sold out and started making the Top 40 list?

[patchwork]

I can understand why the High Sparrow would want to keep Cersei around; she's easily manipulated and the other option is Stannis and his Red God. Going after the Tyrells is the next best thing to going after the Lannisters in terms of putting sinners, noble and serf alike, on notice that no one is above the Seven. 

 

But if the trial is held in public Orlenna can force his hand by revealing Cersei's infidelity and incest with Lancel. 

I'm not too worried about Marge and Loras, well maybe a bit but not overly, a calmer Loras can point out his squire has naturally seen him naked then demand a trial by combat to prove his innocence and overturn the charges against his sister.  

 

With Sansa it all depends on what happens next, the writers didn't have to play it out this way but now that they have is she going to be the protagonist of her own story or motivation fuel for Theon's?

I'm fine with it being both but I'm very much against it just being the later. 

[MadMouse]

Another difference from the books. In the books, Melisandre kills the leader of the vikings. From hundreds of mils away, that is to say the full width of Westeros, she flicks her finger, and a man with lifetime of experience at crossing a catwalk in the fog is knocked off it. And that's pretty satisfying even without a long suspensful narrative.

 

This incidently rekindles the viking storyline-- the struggle for leadership, the blowing of the horn, what appears to be the beginnings of a raid on old town, and yet another voyage to Essos to woo Dany. All things that probably won't appear in the show.

 

A quiet, undramatic death for Ramsay could be satisfying too. Imagine if he's found having apparently slipped in the bathtub and smashed his head in. Roose would take that as proof he wasn't fit to be a Bolton and throw his body to the dogs.

Euron had Balon killed. The Ghost of High Hearts predicts it.

 

"I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings".

 

As for Ramsay's fate I've seen some foreshadowing its going to involve Ghost somehow. Ramsay has Bastard girls trained to hunt wolves and if I remember right there's a scene in the first book where Ghost as a pup just bares his teeth and sends a group of dogs running. Of course if Jon retains some of Ghost's personality it could be referring to him.

[dr pepper]

Rape isn't empowerment, and that is not what this is. Sansa is empowered because she's home, where she has allies. She had no one in King's Landing and her only ally in The Vale was Littlefinger and Littlefinger is nobody's friend. She's finally in a place where she can do something to get out of her role as a pawn.

 

How about this: Rape is not empowering, that's ridiculous. Rape is revealing. Sansa has matured, she has absorbed some of her observations and some of Littlefinger's tutelage. I hate the term "empower" anyway; it's become a newagey buzzword. Let's say "savvy". Sansa may still have some of her old storybook princess attitude but she is no longer naiive. She has some understanding of how things work and that she can't always wait for help. She has to make something happen herself. And sometimes that's eqwivalent to self confidence. To add to that, she's home, andthat gives her a measure of real self confidence. Rape will not "empower" her, but it is now too late for rape to make her give up and shut down. It can only reveal that she is ready to fight for herself.

[Paradigm14]

OK.  The Sansa thing.

 

1. Sansa was a virgin. She chose to marry Ramsey, knowing he was not a nice guy. That meant that it was going to  hurt, most likely, no matter what happened, and she probably knew it as she talked about the pain before to Margaery.

2. Even though it probably turned someone like Ramsey on, he didn't beat her, or cut her, or bash her against anything and he didn't make it more painful than it needed to be, by all appearances. He just wasn't gentle per se, and he didn't let her back out.

3. He needed a witness. Reek was the perfect witness because he was both from another house, and he could be manipulated enough to lie if Sansa had lied about her virginity. And it upset both of them which turned Ramsay on. But he was necessary there, make no mistake. It just didn't look like a traditional bedding party.

4. I don't see this as rape, but the standard in Westeros. Most marriages are arranged and consummation is required. Sansa's luck had just run out. She'd been too busy mourning her family to know how good she had it with Tyrion, who would never have plotted to kill her family himself.

5. I don't think focusing on Reek's face took anything away from Sansa's pain and fear, or the depiction of it and I don't think anything would. I don't think the show cheapened anything by showing his face, but was simply them choosing not to be any more graphic about this than they already were and were showing that people cared about Sansa. We did see her face, and he tore her dress when she was being too slow about removing it, but again, he didn't beat her or cut her or knock her around and he could have.

 

Sand Snakes:

I was seriously disappointed. I almost think they'd have been better off choosing acrobats over actors. Maybe they should have hired some female acrobats to perform the stunts. They also failed to acknowledge that a whip is actually meant to scare animals from a distance, not people from close quarters. That created a problem. Same with the big Naganata/Axe Spear. When you get close, you either need to be bigger or drop it for knives or axes.

[BlackberryJam]

Why do we (and I mean the posters and the fans) think that Baelish cares whether or not Sansa was raped? Or brutalized? Or beaten? Other than his clear desire to fuck her, what kindness has he really shown her? Every thing he has done has been to put Sansa in a precarious position to make her more dependent on him. Why would this marriage be any different? 

 

LF likes to set things up, create chaos and then use it to his advantage. So he marries Sansa to Ramsay.

 

Scenario 1. Ramsay treats her well. Petyr comes in and says, 'See Sansa, I saved you! Ramsay is kind to you, but it is Roose who killed your mother. Manipulate Ramsay and let's take Roose down.'

 

Scenario 2. Ramsay brutalizes her. Petyr comes back and says 'Sansa my sweet, I didn't know.' All the while he insinuates that if she we smarter and stronger she could have manipulated Ramsay, thereby destroying what self-esteem she has left. Then he says, 'Those horrible Boltons. Look at what they've done to you. Let's take them down.'

 

Either way, Baelish wins. So again, why does it matter if he knew about Ramsay's predilections or not if it doesn't matter in his plan?

 

If we hadn't seen Cersei having Qyburn send the letter, I would have thought Baelish had some how faked it so he could get the hell out of Winterfell prior to the wedding. He's managed to keep his hands clean in Sansa's eyes. A Sansa who is dependent on Baelish is a Sansa who is good for Baelish.

[Calamity Jane]

 

If we hadn't seen Cersei having Qyburn send the letter, I would have thought Baelish had some how faked it so he could get the hell out of Winterfell prior to the wedding. He's managed to keep his hands clean in Sansa's eyes. A Sansa who is dependent on Baelish is a Sansa who is good for Baelish.

I wondered the same thing, but then decided it was just good luck for freaking Littlefinger.  sigh. 

[Constantinople]

Why do we (and I mean the posters and the fans) think that Baelish cares whether or not Sansa was raped? Or brutalized? Or beaten? Other than his clear desire to fuck her, what kindness has he really shown her? Every thing he has done has been to put Sansa in a precarious position to make her more dependent on him. Why would this marriage be any different? 

 

LF likes to set things up, create chaos and then use it to his advantage. So he marries Sansa to Ramsay.

 

Scenario 1. Ramsay treats her well. Petyr comes in and says, 'See Sansa, I saved you! Ramsay is kind to you, but it is Roose who killed your mother. Manipulate Ramsay and let's take Roose down.'

 

Scenario 2. Ramsay brutalizes her. Petyr comes back and says 'Sansa my sweet, I didn't know.' All the while he insinuates that if she we smarter and stronger she could have manipulated Ramsay, thereby destroying what self-esteem she has left. Then he says, 'Those horrible Boltons. Look at what they've done to you. Let's take them down.'

 

Either way, Baelish wins. So again, why does it matter if he knew about Ramsay's predilections or not if it doesn't matter in his plan?

 

If we hadn't seen Cersei having Qyburn send the letter, I would have thought Baelish had some how faked it so he could get the hell out of Winterfell prior to the wedding. He's managed to keep his hands clean in Sansa's eyes. A Sansa who is dependent on Baelish is a Sansa who is good for Baelish.

Scenario 3: Sansa blames Littlefinger for what happened.

[mac123x]

Well, the heir is always raised that way, but is the spare?  I can recall a few episodes from English history (Henry VIII, George VI) where the second in line suddenly had to assume the throne and floundered for a good bit before finding their footing.  Tommen hasn't been king very long, he's still pretty young, his decisions have been pretty much controlled by his dominating mother since he began his stint, and his marriage is recent. Of all the things that bug me in this tale, this hasn't been one of them.  He seemed so horrified by the charges against Loras and Margaery that I wasn't surprised he failed to intervene at that moment.  Let's see what a little time without his favorite pastime does for his thinking. I do agree that if Tommen doesn't find his voice as king fairly soon, however, it will begin to feel contrived.

 

I didn't have a huge problem with Tommen's non-reaction either.  His previous encounter with the Sparrows probably scared him; he only had a couple of Kingsguards with him when he went to the Sept and was visibly afraid when he realized how outnumbered they were.  His previous incarnation had also experienced the Fleabottom riot, so he's well aware how quickly a mob can get out of control.

 

They were in a similar situation of being outnumbered at the High Septon's Inquest.  Hopefully he'll learn that it's a good idea to bring a platoon of Lannister retainers with him the next time he goes into hostile territory.

[Avaleigh]

OK.  The Sansa thing.

 

1. Sansa was a virgin. She chose to marry Ramsey, knowing he was not a nice guy. That meant that it was going to  hurt, most likely, no matter what happened, and she probably knew it as she talked about the pain before to Margaery.

2. Even though it probably turned someone like Ramsey on, he didn't beat her, or cut her, or bash her against anything and he didn't make it more painful than it needed to be, by all appearances. He just wasn't gentle per se, and he didn't let her back out.

3. He needed a witness. Reek was the perfect witness because he was both from another house, and he could be manipulated enough to lie if Sansa had lied about her virginity. And it upset both of them which turned Ramsay on. But he was necessary there, make no mistake. It just didn't look like a traditional bedding party.

4. I don't see this as rape, but the standard in Westeros. Most marriages are arranged and consummation is required. Sansa's luck had just run out. She'd been too busy mourning her family to know how good she had it with Tyrion, who would never have plotted to kill her family himself.

5. I don't think focusing on Reek's face took anything away from Sansa's pain and fear, or the depiction of it and I don't think anything would. I don't think the show cheapened anything by showing his face, but was simply them choosing not to be any more graphic about this than they already were and were showing that people cared about Sansa. We did see her face, and he tore her dress when she was being too slow about removing it, but again, he didn't beat her or cut her or knock her around and he could have.

 

1) On that level, yes, I agree that Sansa wasn't expecting for it to be pain free given past comments she's made.

 

2) He definitely could have made it less painful. Sansa wasn't aroused at all. If he'd taken any time with her it didn't have to be as bad of an experience as it was. Ramsay wanted it to be painful for her and he didn't care about easing her into it. Even book Drogo took time with Dany, a little foreplay, starting with fingers, asking her if she still wanted to, etc. It's not like Ramsay doesn't know that there are things he could have done to make it less horrible for Sansa but he didn't give a shit because that's the kind of person that he is. As far as the fact that he hasn't beaten her yet, I certainly thought she was being threatened with physical violence when he told her that he doesn't like having to ask a second time. Tearing at her gown only made the experience more unpleasant, another thing that he didn't have to do. 

 

3) If Theon was meant to be a witness for official purposes then Ramsay could have simply said that. Both Sansa and Theon look surprised because they aren't expecting for there to be a bedding where there are witnesses. If they'd wanted a traditional bedding ceremony then they surely could have arranged one. Ramsay makes no comment to indicate that Theon is there so that it can be verified that Sansa and Ramsay consummated their marriage. We know that there don't have to be official witnesses anyway. Catelyn tells Roose that she didn't have a bedding ceremony with Ned and we know that Talisa didn't have one with Robb. Tyrion didn't have one with Sansa. Margaery didn't have one with Tommen. Ramsay makes it seem like Theon's presence is all about tormenting the two of them. 

 

4) Ramsay isn't going to get arrested or gelded for consummating his marriage to Sansa. The laws are fucked up but it is what it is. I don't know that Sansa had it "good" with Tyrion, I just think that Tyrion is a lot more preferable to Ramsay which isn't the same thing. 

 

5) I agree although I can't give Ramsay points for choosing to not beat Sansa in that scene. 

[Mya Stone]

I think that having Theon there was as strategic as it was a manipulation tactic. Theon has beared witness the consummation, he can not deny that they are not legally wed. It also causes him (and Sansa) psychological anguish and suffering. Two birds, one stone, and all that. 

I've been mulling over the fan reaction; all I can say is this: book readers have taken this WAY worse than non book readers, from what I've seen. For example, my sister, a non book reader, called me afterward and told me she didn't think it was as bad as I had made it out to be. It was unpleasant, and awful, but she viewed it as something that had to happen to progress the story. For book readers, we know the horrors that Jeyne went through, and to us, we keep asking: Why Sansa? I'm copying and pasting something I wrote to a group of my book reading friends on FB who were very upset over this choice; I think it's relevant here, as well: 

 

I don't think Sansa reverted back to her old self, not completely. I think she showed her strength time and again this episode. This is not the same Sansa of season 2, or 3; she isn't fully toughened, but she's getting there - she stood up to both Myranda and Theon without hesitating, and without using her "woman's armor" of courtesy.

 

I think Myranda's tale shook her more than she showed, and then she watched Ramsey drop all pretense and become the little sadistic shit we know he is after they were wed. Of course she was terrified. But note - she started to undress herself. She tried to brace herself for the consummation. He took her agency away by ripping her dress, and pushing her down, but she never struggled. This is key, I think. 

 

I truly don't believe that the final zoom on Theon was to make this all about him - the scene was truly ALL about Sansa: her expression, she reluctancy, her utter horror - it was palpable. I honestly think it was better that they DIDN'T show it. By zooming in on Theon, and his horror, it made HER horror all the more real without any possibly of us mistaking it for anything remotely sexy. By sexy, I don't mean sensual, I mean related to sex. There's no nudity, no touching shown. There's just the sound, and Theon's reaction.

 

I've given this a LOT of thought. It's far more horrifying to be kept off screen than on. I truly believe they were damned if they did, damned if they didn't. By placing Sansa in WF this season, this is the price. But l won't judge this as a whole until I see the outcome. If she has no role in her escape, and she is merely a damsel in distress to be rescued - well, then I'll take umbrage.

 

[BlackberryJam]

Scenario 3: Sansa blames Littlefinger for what happened.

 

Let's run that. Sansa blames LF. So she hates and doesn't trust Ramsay (rapey husband), Roose (father-in-law who killed her mother and brother), LF, Myranda (husband's hateful creepy mistress) and Theon (guy who betrayed her family and to her belief burned her brothers.)

 

Who does she turn to for help? She must have help. She's a girl alone.

 

Options:

 

Random servant woman. Pros - The North Remembers! Cons - Who is she, can she be trusted and what can a servant do to help?

Walda. Pros - Is a Frey and has family support. Cons - Apparently loves Roose and is carrying his child. No motivation to help Sansa.

...

...

...

And what? If Sansa turns on LF, she is totally and completely alone and has to throw the Hail Mary of putting a candle in a window and hoping it works.

 

ETA: Mya Stone, yes. Everything in your post and what you wrote, yes. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Paradigm14]

 

3) If Theon was meant to be a witness for official purposes then Ramsay could have simply said that. Both Sansa and Theon look surprised because they aren't expecting for there to be a bedding where there are witnesses. If they'd wanted a traditional bedding ceremony then they surely could have arranged one. Ramsay makes no comment to indicate that Theon is there so that it can be verified that Sansa and Ramsay consummated their marriage. We know that there don't have to be official witnesses anyway. Catelyn tells Roose that she didn't have a bedding ceremony with Ned and we know that Talisa didn't have one with Robb. Tyrion didn't have one with Sansa. Margaery didn't have one with Tommen. Ramsay makes it seem like Theon's presence is all about tormenting the two of them. 

 

Catalyn and Robb both discussed beddings and Edmure actually had one. It's common enough to her family.

 

A formal bedding COULDN'T have happened here because Roose and Ramsey weren't sure she was really a virgin. So no, I can't agree that it could just be arranged. Ramsey considers himself her lord, he doesn't seek to explain or defend his actions, even if he were a nice guy here, which he's not. And it's not like he and Sansa are friends, or that Ramsey actually knows what friends are. Either you're useful, fun and cooperative to him in some way, or you're not and no matter what, you're probably a target. She got off pretty well considering who she was dealing with and what was expected of her.

[Avaleigh]

Catalyn and Robb both discussed beddings and Edmure actually had one. It's common enough to her family.

 

A formal bedding COULDN'T have happened here because Roose and Ramsey weren't sure she was really a virgin. So no, I can't agree that it could just be arranged. Ramsey considers himself her lord, he doesn't seek to explain or defend his actions, even if he were a nice guy here, which he's not. And it's not like he and Sansa are friends, or that Ramsey actually knows what friends are. Either you're useful, fun and cooperative to him in some way, or you're not and no matter what, you're probably a target. She got off pretty well considering who she was dealing with and what was expected of her.

I thought a bedding ceremony was to establish consummation as opposed to whether or not the bride is a virgin just in case some party tries to later say that the marriage isn't legal?

[proserpina65]

We'll have to agree to disagree. IMO the Sansa we saw at the end of the last season and early this season, who was able to emotionally manipulate the Lords of the Vale and was learning from Littlefinger's playbook, and in this episode smacked down Ramsey's girlfriend had grown beyond being a helpless damsel, and I'm upset the writers brought her back to that place when they could have spun her story so many other, more interesting ways.

But Ramsay Bolton is a whole different kettle of fish from the Lords of the Vale, who were basically decent people.  Ramsay is a sadist, and there was no way that a wedding night with him was going to end with anything other than brutality; it simply isn't in his character to behave in any other manner.  Sansa had no chance of manipulating him into treating her gently.  She's just lucky that she didn't get the full "Jeyne Poole" treatment, at least not yet.

Quote

I think Sansa is much tougher now. She saw her Aunt Lysa die. She tolerates Littlefinger. There was no way for her to charm Ramsey. He is a beast she must survive. Much like Dany she is a hunted woman trying to survive via a marriage. Unlike Dany she married a horrible person. I hate the rape but it was inevitable when Sansa chose to marry him.

I also have no problem with her not trying to manipulate him. Anything she would have said he would have shifted around to suit his own purposes. He likes hurting people and he had already made up his mind to hurt her. Hence his asking all the virgin questions and the deliberate lack of foreplay beyond that pathetic kiss. He is a severly disturbed man. I cannot wait till someone takes him down and I would love it to be Sansa. He would never see that coming. I just have to give kudos to all the actors, they were all great. Its nice to hear they seem to like working together.

Exactly.  Ramsay Snow is not a task for beginners.

 

[Haleth]

I'm curious if viewers who are terribly upset by the scene are so because it was Sansa? Would it have been less distressing had they stayed with the book version with an unknown Jeyne?

(Serious question, not snarky.)

Edited May 20, 2015 by Haleth

[OakGoblinFly]

I was appalled that Tommen didn't order the Kingsguard to protect the Queen but he is very young and his mother the Regent wasn't calling for action and he really really doesn't want to see blood shed.  If, however, the Faith Militant had seized Cersie, SHE would have ordered the Kingsguard to kill them all to protect her.  And they would have.  I think the High Sparrow knew Cersie wanted Margery seized.  For all we know, she told him that Margery was Loras' "procurer" or something along those lines at the same time she offered up Loras, and he has simply been biding his time -- waiting to trap her in perjury before seizing her.

 

This needs to happen -- at least here on the boards.

 

Add me to the list of people who regret that religious fundamentalism has become a driving force in the narrative.  It's just so depressing.

 

 

Didn't Cersei mention earlier in the episode that the Sparrows operated independent of the crown and did not have to answer to the crown?  I don't think that Tommen could have ordered Margery released - well, he could have but the Sparrows didn't have to listen.

 

As far as not sending the Kingsguard to grab Margery away, I don't think that would have lead to anything other than bloodshed ..... kid was stuck between a rock and a hard place and put there by his (very short sighted) mother. 

[Constantinople]

Scenario 3: Sansa blames Littlefinger for what happened.

 

 

Let's run that. Sansa blames LF. So she hates and doesn't trust Ramsay (rapey husband), Roose (father-in-law who killed her mother and brother), LF, Myranda (husband's hateful creepy mistress) and Theon (guy who betrayed her family and to her belief burned her brothers.)

 

Who does she turn to for help? She must have help. She's a girl alone.

 

Options:

 

Random servant woman. Pros - The North Remembers! Cons - Who is she, can she be trusted and what can a servant do to help?

Walda. Pros - Is a Frey and has family support. Cons - Apparently loves Roose and is carrying his child. No motivation to help Sansa.

...

...

...

And what? If Sansa turns on LF, she is totally and completely alone and has to throw the Hail Mary of putting a candle in a window and hoping it works.

Stannis.

[BlackberryJam]

Stannis.

And Sansa knows where Stannis is, how to reach him, Stannis' opinions on the Starks....how? Did I miss that strategy session she sat in on? That's why I ran through people who are in present in Winterfell now and can even send a message for her.

[BlackberryJam]

I'm curious if viewers who are terribly upset by the scene are so because it was Sansa? Would it have been less distressing has they stayed with the book version with an unknown Jeyne?

Why, could you possibly suggesting that the rape of a pretty, pale, delicate girl is worse than rape in general? 

...I have been getting that impression from people and it's very uncomfortable. I have issues with the act, not with the victim. Are people really upset with rape of a woman based on choice of victim?

 

ETA: My first sentence was supposed to be read with an "oh my word" fake shock voice.  I didn't make that clear.  Apologies!

Edited May 20, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Mya Stone]

Why are you suggesting that the rape of a pretty, pale, delicate girl is worse than rape in general?

...I have been getting that impression from people and it's very uncomfortable. I have issues with the act, not with the victim. Are people really upset with rape of a woman based on choice of victim?

I get where you're going with this, but I'd rather not open this can of worms here.

I think Haleth meant it was someone we knew, and had watched grow up, versus someone we barely know.

In essence, D and D made us, the audience, the Theon of this piece.

[Oscirus]

If the audience is desensitized to rape then maybe the audience should take a look at itself before pointing fingers at the media they're consuming.

 

Or maybe the writers need to stop going to that well so often that the audience gets desensitized to it in the fictional world that the writers created. Just because the audience is desensitized to it's use in Game of Thrones doesn't mean they're desensitized to it in the real world.

 

I'm really getting tired of the whole theme that this show has where women literally have to get raped to get power on this show.

 

Also if the intent of the story was to turn Ramsey into more of a villain then that's just silly. Dude is flaying people alive, if people didn't hate him at that point then they were never going to hate him.

 

That being said, I'm more pissed at the fact that the writers made that the climax of the episode then I am that it actually happened. Mostly because I expected it once the show decided to deliver Sansa to the Boltons.

 

I also realize that the seasons theme is kill the boy/girl and all the main characters have gone through that moment. Tyrion learning to rely on himself, Dany learning how to rule, Jon learning to trust himself and his decisions, Arya finally realizing that being a faceless person isn't fun and games, Cersei finally getting to become the ruler that she's always wanted to be, Jaime deciding to be a father. They just took Sansa's moment (realizing that she's going to have to rely on herself) to the extreme.

 

Finally, for all this talk about what happened to Sansa which is horrendous, we also have another character solely being kept alive for his penis. Just saying.

 

 

 

[Haleth]

Thank you, Mya.  That is what I meant.  I was not suggesting a rape of anyone would have been acceptable.  My point was that an act of violence against even a character we don't really know is still disgusting.  I am also wondering if the show will have Sansa forgive Theon since he didn't kill her brothers, forgetting the fact that he did kill two other boys.

[Dandesun]

I didn't know Craster's many wives all that well but the scenes at the Keep after the mutiny were fucking harrowing.

[Minneapple]

I'm curious if viewers who are terribly upset by the scene are so because it was Sansa? Would it have been less distressing has they stayed with the book version with an unknown Jeyne?

No, because swapping out the rape of one woman for another is not okay. Here's my thing: when I read that they would not be doing the Jeyne-Fake Arya plot, I was pleased, because I thought it would mean less rape and torture onscreen. I became nervous when it became clear that Sansa would replace Jeyne, because well, these writers. It's like "we don't stay faithful to the books...except for when it's rape! That has to stay faithful to the books!"

The writers could have done whatever they wanted and they chose to go with rape. I'm actually waiting for next week to see how they frame it, but honestly I don't have a lot of confidence.

[Avaleigh]

I didn't know Craster's many wives all that well but the scenes at the Keep after the mutiny were fucking harrowing.

I think the scenes were supposed to feel that way. A large portion of the NW is made up of total scum--the bottom of the barrel. The show didn't have time to tell the stories of the women who ended up being victimized by these assholes. At the same time it would be unrealistic to think that these deserters would be putting up their feet at Craster's without assaulting the women who live there. I guess the point is that the women shouldn't have been shown in various states of undress but again, I have to ask myself how realistic that would be. It's not exactly the sort of environment that makes sense to have the camera focus on the drapes and an open window like in a movie from the Hayes Code era.  

 

I'm curious if viewers who are terribly upset by the scene are so because it was Sansa? Would it have been less distressing has they stayed with the book version with an unknown Jeyne?

I think the complaint would then be that Jeyne Poole is nothing but a cipher for Theon's story. Whether it's a character we know well or not it seems like the chief objection is that a rape was included at all. For some, it seems like extra points are taken away because the showrunners chose to have the cameras focus on Theon as opposed to having the cameras focus on Sansa being sexually assaulted. Once the showrunners decided to include the rape I don't think that there was any winning for them because some viewers don't think that any more rape should be depicted in the series. 

 

Again, I'm assuming that D&D decided to include this because of what is written in TWoW. 

 

 

No, because swapping out the rape of one woman for another is not okay. Here's my thing: when I read that they would not be doing the Jeyne-Fake Arya plot, I was pleased, because I thought it would mean less rape and torture onscreen. I became nervous when it became clear that Sansa would replace Jeyne, because well, these writers. It's like "we don't stay faithful to the books...except for when it's rape! That has to stay faithful to the books!"

The writers could have done whatever they wanted and they chose to go with rape. I'm actually waiting for next week to see how they frame it, but honestly I don't have a lot of confidence.

Jaime raping Cersei wasn't faithful to the books. Officially though, in showverse, it never happened. 

 

I guess I ultimately disagree that the writers have some disgusting rape fetish.

[Boundary]

No, because swapping out the rape of one woman for another is not okay. Here's my thing: when I read that they would not be doing the Jeyne-Fake Arya plot, I was pleased, because I thought it would mean less rape and torture onscreen. I became nervous when it became clear that Sansa would replace Jeyne, because well, these writers. It's like "we don't stay faithful to the books...except for when it's rape! That has to stay faithful to the books!"

 

Exactly. That Jeyne story was amongst many other little tales: Lady Dustin, Wyman, Mance, Hooded Man as well as the incoming Stannis. Sansa could have partaken in any one of those threads but of course our showrunners chose the get Sansa herself raped. I'd like to think they'd know we would have cared too if it was Jeyne. In fact, how much more complex would it have been if Sansa was in WF in disguise and then seeing her best friend suffer like this?

 

Another thing that the showrunners probably never thought of. Fake Arya was used in the books to legitimize the theft of WF but her not being a true Stark was also hugely advantageous to the Boltons. A real Stark right in the middle of Winterfell is a dangerous thing to a house trying to steal their birthright. Wyman in the books knows that little Rickon, with his huge wolf, would raise the north more comfortably than just hating/fighting the Boltons with nothing to replace them with. Sansa being at Winterfell is a lot more significant than the show has made it out to be. Perhaps in the aftermath of the rape they will put it right but I'm not holding my breath.

[ElizaD]

I'm curious if viewers who are terribly upset by the scene are so because it was Sansa? Would it have been less distressing has they stayed with the book version with an unknown Jeyne?

 

Jeyne's plot was GRRM's most brutal, but at least he also managed to use it to make a thematic point: Theon was responsible for the death of innocent peasant children in ACOK, now he risks himself to save a girl who is not of high birth. He doesn't save Jeyne because she's a Stark and he owes it to her, but because allowing anyone to be abused that way is not right. His own sufferings have made him capable of empathy even if the girl is no one (so the show will also be lessening Theon: Show Theon will rescue a Stark, a specific rather than a general expression of remorse and recognition of human value - even if he's forgiven after he tells fellow victim Sansa that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon, the peasant boys are still dead).

 

The show managed to make that plot worse by treating rape as something that can be casually added to a female character's storyline. In ADWD, Jeyne is a minor character who only had brief previous appearances: minor characters support the stories of POVs. But the show reduced Sansa, a POV character, to playing Jeyne's role: she is repeating her season 2 storyline, now with rape since the actress turned 18, for the sake of Theon's character development. To me, perhaps the most infuriating thing about the rape scene (because more than anything else, it was utterly unnecessary) is that Book Tyrion's story includes more than one rape, yet Show Tyrion is such a knight in shining armor that we can't be allowed to forget how great he was to Show Sansa. At least Jeyne's rape was about only one male character; on the show, in addition to showing Theon's pain, rape was turned into yet another occasion to remind the viewers that Tyrion was the bestest, most considerate partner in Westeros. So Show Sansa gets Jeyne's rape and she has to prop up a character who, in the books, agreed to rape her, changed his mind, and after enduring a couple of months of sexless marriage was thinking about how she'd cry no more than she had to if he changed his mind again and went through with the rape after all. Show Tyrion gets to live in a rape-free fantasy version of Westeros (and now Essos) where prostitutes are happy to have sex with him and his slavery is set to be a merry escapade, while Show Sansa, who has been endlessly criticized by the fandom for not wanting to have sex with him and not placing his feelings first, gets raped after a reminder of how great her husband #1 was.

 

In addition, Jeyne's rape was only one element of the Winterfell plot in ADWD. On the show, they've made big cuts and focused on the rape, which will lead to Theon rescuing the victim. Sansa, after being raped, will merely be doing what the show chose not to have her do in her own King's Landing storyline: she will be an active participant in her escape from her abuser #2, which will only be character development because the show had her dragged from the Purple Wedding a clueless puppet.

 

Finally, Jeyne might vanish from the story after her rescue (my own guess is that she'll live but I don't know if we'll hear more about her than where she was sent), but whatever Show Sansa does after this will be a question mark - is she doing something Book Sansa would have done, or is she killing Freys and Boltons because her rape sent her on a badass path of revenge (nevermind that for male characters the murders of their families are reason enough, no personal experience of empowering rape required)?

 

I'll praise the show when I believe it deserves it; who knows what will happen to Stannis now that he's coming into conflict with the showrunners' love of the Boltons' thrilling atrocities, but his time on the Wall was far better than I would have expected and the highlight of the first half of season 5 after two poor seasons for Team Dragonstone. Winterfell, however, is a mess where the #1 priority seems to have been making Jeyne's rape a bigger opportunity for articles about the latest GOT controversy by having Sansa raped instead. And for me, it becomes even worse when compared to the way the show sanitized Tyrion's rape of the slave in ADWD: Sansa is interchangeable with ASOIAF's most badly abused female rape victim, but Tyrion can't be given the rape scene he did have in the book (which showed the abuses enabled by the system of slavery that Dany is trying to eradicate, how broken the victims can be and how easy it is to forget what is right when society permits you to do wrong, but eh, let's have dragonfire and quips in Essos instead). GOT has shown no interest in being realistic about the trauma or complexity of different forms of rape: having the 100% evil sadist rape the pretty virgin girl is just about the laziest, least challenging option available, and it's disappointing to see it in 2015 when it feels like it belongs in those old pulp novels that were all "fate worse than death! but ooh, enjoy this scene even as you look forward to the hero's gruesome slaying of the rapist." GRRM can be hard to read, but at least he doesn't pretend Tyrion will always meet a hooker with a heart of gold and gives us things like Cersei's memories of drunken Robert for an examination of marital rape when it's called claiming his rights.

 

I'll wish the very best for Sophie and Alfie in their careers, though. The story is a mess, but none of that is due to their acting: while the Sand Snakes are showing what happens when casting fails to elevate poor material, Sophie and Alfie are making the most of what they're given to do.

[BlackberryJam]

 

I'll wish the very best for Sophie and Alfie in their careers, though. The story is a mess, but none of that is due to their acting: while the Sand Snakes are showing what happens when casting fails to elevate poor material, Sophie and Alfie are making the most of what they're given to do.

 

Whatever we, the viewing public, feel about the scene, Sophie Turner had some feelings of her own. 

 

From her EW interview.

 

 

And then there is the scene described in the production breakdown as “romance dies.” Sansa’s wedding night in episode 6. 

When I read that scene, I kinda loved it. I love the way Ramsay had Theon watching. It was all so messed up. It’s also so daunting for me to do it. I’ve been making [producer Bryan Cogman] feel so bad for writing that scene: “I can’t believe you’re doing this to me!” But I secretly loved it.

 

For Alfie and Sophie both, these are the kinds of roles actors generally love. I seriously doubt either of them feels like they are struggling through bad material. I'm pretty sure that emotion is being owned by Nikolaj Coster-Waldau at the moment ;)

[Shanna Marie]

And in the book, Fake Arya illustrates just how tenuous the hold the Boltons have on the North and by extension, the Lannisters (as it was Cersei who conspired with Littlefinger to create a Fake Arya) have on a major part of the Seven Kingdoms. And yes, a Fake Stark for a Fake Bolton (legitimized by a Fake Baratheon.)

I think that's one of my issues with the change to Sansa. There seemed to be a lot going on thematically in the book at this point -- the fake Arya meaning that the Boltons' claim to the North was fake, plus them having the Northern Lords there to "legitimize" it but they were actually plotting against them and serving Frey pie, and then there was the minstrel who was actually Mance. Their stronghold was full of enemies at the point they were trying to assert and strengthen their claim with this wedding. Plus the Theon/Reek duality and him coming back to his true self, and there was even the fake death of Davos. It's all about fakery and illusion and showing that the Boltons are building a house of sand based on falsehood. They've cut most of the rest of the fakery out of the show, and now Sansa really is a Bolton wife, complete with consummation. In the book that part was about them starting to lose their grip on the North (and giving readers an iota of hope that things were starting to turn around), but in the show it's more like they're strengthening their grip. Sansa doesn't have Mance and the Northern Lords there. She just has a few servants and Brienne.

 

Meanwhile, I feel like in the books, Ramsay was just portrayed as a sick creep with no redeeming qualities. In the show, they've almost made him kind of cool. He gets the witty one-liners and has naked women crawling over him. He's got a girlfriend who likes him enough to be jealous of his arranged marriage. It's like getting a look at the self image of an Internet troll, where he can victimize women who think they're too good for him and still have other women desperate to be with him.

 

I'll add that when we saw Theon getting victimized, there were conveniently a couple of totally naked women in the scene, so even a castration scene was planned around the male gaze. That and the fact that they even use rape as background scenery gives the impression that this has nothing to do with "gritty reality" and everything to do with a show produced by guys with a fratboy mentality.

[Paradigm14]

I thought a bedding ceremony was to establish consummation as opposed to whether or not the bride is a virgin just in case some party tries to later say that the marriage isn't legal?

It's both in this particular case. The Sept would have to annul the marriage to Tyrion if it had been consummated and anyone knew. So, if they'd had a formal bedding ceremony and then she didn't bleed because her hymen was broken already, everyone would think she was married to Tyrion and then the new marriage would be invalid.

 

On the other hand, if she bleeds into her dress, they have "proof" that Ramsey did the deed. Ramsey was probably looking out for that issue. other types of blood were not easy fakers in the olden days. People tried though. 

 

Otherwise, if she'd had an annulment, or she was widowed, no one would care.

[Constantinople]

And Sansa knows where Stannis is, how to reach him, Stannis' opinions on the Starks....how? Did I miss that strategy session she sat in on? That's why I ran through people who are in present in Winterfell now and can even send a message for her.

 

She knows Stannis headed for Winterfell and, according to Littlefinger, Stannis has a better than even chance of winning.  Since Stannis is taking an army with him, it should be fairly evident when Stannis gets near (see Battle of Blackwater and the Battle at Castle Black).

 

So Littlefinger risks alienating Sansa because, for plot driven reasons, his credo must be changed temporarily from "Knowledge is Power" to "Ignorance is Bliss".

[taanja]

Why, could you possibly suggesting that the rape of a pretty, pale, delicate girl is worse than rape in general? 

...I have been getting that impression from people and it's very uncomfortable. I have issues with the act, not with the victim. Are people really upset with rape of a woman based on choice of victim?

 

ETA: My first sentence was supposed to be read with an "oh my word" fake shock voice.  I didn't make that clear.  Apologies!

Just to reiterate because people seem confused:

You all know that this is a TV show? based on a series of books---Right? and that the character of Sansa is just that --- a character --right? She isn't a real person. None of this is real. You all get that---right?

because reading some of these comments makes it sound like people think this really happened in the real world to a real person.

[Calamity Jane]

I'm curious if viewers who are terribly upset by the scene are so because it was Sansa? Would it have been less distressing has they stayed with the book version with an unknown Jeyne?

 

(Serious question, not snarky.)

I have been wondering the same thing, actually.  There's so much terrible behavior towards women in this story -- Craster's Keep, just for instance -- that I am a little puzzled why it's so much worse this time, unless it's just because it's a character people have come to like a lot.  I'm not a huge Sansa fan, and I don't think I will be until she starts taking some initiative, but her wedding night with Ramsay just did not at all seem like the time for that!  

[BlackberryJam]

She knows Stannis headed for Winterfell and, according to Littlefinger, Stannis has a better than even chance of winning.  Since Stannis is taking an army with him, it should be fairly evident when Stannis gets near (see Battle of Blackwater and the Battle at Castle Black).

 

So Littlefinger risks alienating Sansa because, for plot driven reasons, his credo must be changed temporarily from "Knowledge is Power" to "Ignorance is Bliss".

 

How does Sansa contact Stannis for help? 

 

I've seen that LF line all over ...Tumblr I think? It doesn't make sense in the least. 

Just to reiterate because people seem confused:

You all know that this is a TV show? based on a series of books---Right? and that the character of Sansa is just that --- a character --right? She isn't a real person. None of this is real. You all get that---right?

because reading some of these comments makes it sound like people think this really happened in the real world to a real person.

 

Not sure why you're posting this quoting me, but that's fine. I'm not one of the people up in arms over the scene. I've been fully supportive of the beautiful cinematography and amazing acting and ...yeah, I even made the joke about the height difference between IR and ST while Ramsay questions her about having sex with a dwarf.

 

But I think we all realize it's a TV show. Some people just extrapolate TV to real life experiences and see TV as a reflection of societal acceptance and norms. I think that's a mistake. People don't abuse other people because they watched Game of Thrones. People abuse other people because of their own issues.

[Advance35]

And for all the (In my view) OTT rage over the Sansa twist I have yet to read a comment about how the showrunners should have handled it if the last scene is something that will play out at some point in TWOW.   Albeit with Harry the Heir.    I honestly feel that if Sansa doesn't suffer the wedding night from hell in the book GRRM would have said something like "It's THEIR story."

 

I have been wondering the same thing, actually.  There's so much terrible behavior towards women in this story -- Craster's Keep, just for instance -- that I am a little puzzled why it's so much worse this time, unless it's just because it's a character people have come to like a lot.  I'm not a huge Sansa fan, and I don't think I will be until she starts taking some initiative, but her wedding night with Ramsay just did not at all seem like the time for that!

 

Whole bruha is baffling to me but I will say one of the things I like about Sansa's character is that she can shut herself down, others will fight and die but Sansa will endure.   She can SURVIVE anything anyone throws at her in terms of hardship without self-destructing or going kamakazze and I hope to see her outlast everyone because of that particular character trait.

[SeanC]

And for all the (In my view) OTT rage over the Sansa twist I have yet to read a comment about how the showrunners should have handled it if the last scene is something that will play out at some point in TWOW.   Albeit with Harry the Heir.    I honestly feel that if Sansa doesn't suffer the wedding night from hell in the book GRRM would have said something like "It's THEIR story."

GRRM is not going to openly criticize the showrunners, or give spoilers.  But he's been doing everything he can to distance himself from this development without doing it.

 

And, again, he's said he's not going to write rape POVs.

[taanja]

Not sure why you're posting this quoting me, but that's fine.

I just picked you and quoted you randomly. No offense. I just keep reading things and it's like some people have taken this personally. Like it happened to a real living person. Or even themselves. Just trying to add a little levity by reminding folks --- this is just a TV show...it isn't real....

[Boundary]

And for all the (In my view) OTT rage over the Sansa twist I have yet to read a comment about how the showrunners should have handled it if the last scene is something that will play out at some point in TWOW.   Albeit with Harry the Heir.    I honestly feel that if Sansa doesn't suffer the wedding night from hell in the book GRRM would have said something like "It's THEIR story."

 

And he did:

"In the meantime, we hope that the readers and viewers both enjoy the journey. Or journeys, as the case may be. Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons.

((I am closing comments on this post. Take your discussions to the other sites I have mentioned. And for those who may be curious as to the road the books are taking, I direct you to the WINDS OF WINTER sample chapters on my website"

[BlackberryJam]

 

 

And, again, he's said he's not going to write rape POVs.

 

That's bothersome to me. Why should we always see rape from either the eyes of the rapist or the eyes of the rape observer?

 

However, GRRM can write Sansa getting raped without writing it from her POV. It's not like he doesn't have POV characters in a chapter together and we see it from only one of those POVs. I'm not saying he will have Sansa's most likely horrific wedding night as part of the story. He may kill her off first.

 

And to be clear on GRRM, from his live journal...

 

The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story.

...

Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements.

 

David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can.

 

And over here I am trying to write the best novels that I can.

 

And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose... but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place.

 

So...the question becomes, how could D&D have Sansa arrive at the same place if they have "totally destroyed" her character as some have argued? Look, until the show finishes and until books are done, this idea that D&D have done something horrible to Sansa and betrayed her character is premature. If Sansa is a virgin queen or has a beautiful loving wedding night with say...Podrick, then those arguments have merit. On the other hand, if Sansa dies because she's just another red herring, suffers under a brutal husband, or gets a terrible horrible beatdown before rising from the ashes, D&D haven't done anything but preserve and portray the character GRRM has written.

 

[Pogojoco]

I'm curious if viewers who are terribly upset by the scene are so because it was Sansa? Would it have been less distressing had they stayed with the book version with an unknown Jeyne?

(Serious question, not snarky.)

Yes and no. 

 

This show has shown a lot of rape onscreen, and I've found it all disturbing (and occasionally exploitative.) So seeing random Jeyne terrorized by Ramsey would also upset. The endless Theon torture scenes were also pretty terrible, and I suspect show versions of Jeyne scenes would be similar. 

 

I was upset (but also annoyed) by the Sansa scene, not because it was most graphic scene they've shown or even that it was Sansa. Just that the show runners have proven themselves to be incredibly lazy about some things. They had caught up with Book Sansa stuff completely and could've gone anywhere with it. They chose to terrorize Sansa (again), show Ramsey to be a horror of a human being (again) and to show Theon as a broken person (again.) 

 

All their explanations of why it needed to happen just sound hollow and it makes me annoyed at the show.  

 

Also, the Sand Snakes are lame, so I was annoyed by that, too. 

[J----av]

Not long term. But maybe enough to throw him off balance enough to make the wedding night less horrific.

 

But there were other ways to work around it, if the writers had wanted to. For example, have Roose warn Ramsey not to do anything stupid, like so:

 

Roose: Remember, treat the Stark girl gently. She's not one of your pets. Misuse her and you might well incite the entire North in open rebellion at the time we can least afford it.  *super serious eye contact.* Don't disappoint me, Ramsey.

 

This was something the writers actively chose to invent for the show. They wanted to include Sansa being raped as a plot point so they aligned events to make it happen. They could just as easily have done otherwise if that was the course they wanted to take.

 

 

 You really think Ramsay would listen to that advice from his dad? Ramsay already tortured and mentally ruined Theon despite knowing his dad would want Theon unharmed and used as a bargaining chip. Ramsay somewhat respects his dad, but he is still a sadistic monster that will do as he pleases. Honestly the way the wedding night went was probably the best anyone could have hoped for Sansa. Thats about as gentle as you are going to see Ramsay as crazy as that sounds. Ramsay doing any less then he did would be hard for any viewer to buy

Edited May 20, 2015 by J----av

[Avaleigh]

 You really think Ramsay would listen to that advice from his dad? Ramsay already tortured and mentally ruined Theon despite knowing his dad would want Theon unharmed and used as a bargaining chip. Ramsay somewhat respects his dad, but he is still a sadistic monster that will do as he pleases. Honestly the way the wedding night went was probably the best anyone could have hopped for Sansa. Thats about as gentle as you are going to see Ramsay as crazy as that sounds. Ramsay doing any less then he did would be hard for any viewer to buy

I agree with this. To me it would just be wishful thinking to have Ramsay listen to Roose when it comes to how he's going to treat his wife. In another post I mentioned that somewhere in Ramsay's head he probably thinks that there wasn't anything wrong with the way he treated Sansa. He was even courteous enough to ask her if the room and everything was to her satisfaction, so I guess that was his attempt at playing the gracious nobleman. 

 

Myranda for her part is definitely living on borrowed time. Her sulking over Sansa is probably going to 'bore' Ramsay. They probably won't have time to do a hunt but whatever it is it won't be pretty and Sansa might even have to witness it. 

 

I agree with those who really hope that Sansa won't end up pregnant. 

[SeanC]

So...the question becomes, how could D&D have Sansa arrive at the same place if they have "totally destroyed" her character as some have argued? 

D&D have no problem having characters do the same thing they did in the book even if they've removed the context or completely restructured the story so that it no longer really makes sense.  And I never argued that they think they've "totally destroyed" the character; I'm pretty sure they will blithely proceed along, just as they have before.