S03.E22: This Is Your Sword

[quarks]

I think the thematic theme is trust, which is basically one of the main themes of this entire show, starting from the first episode - who can Oliver Queen trust, and who can trust Oliver Queen?

 

Which brings me back to one more point that I wanted to clarify: I do think that Oliver should have trusted his team a lot more than he did - and certainly, he should have realized, after their understandable lack of enthusiasm for teaming up with Malcolm before this, that they were not too likely to believe anything that Malcolm said - though he was quick to agree with Malcolm when Malcolm pointed that out.

[Ang]

There's a new well-written short fanfic that basically ends with an LOA guy telling Oliver that diseased bodies are immediately burned. Kinda cracked me up, although of course it's also horrible.

Must search that out (I've fallen into a fanfic rabbit hole the last couple of weeks, which is more fun than I expected. I'm currently going through older stuff on AO3, which goes surprisingly quickly if you avoid the explicit stuff...)

This reminded me that I noticed none of our plucky side-heroes were bleeding from the mouth, which bodes well for it not actually being the alpha and omega whatever. It would be kind of fun if Oliver also thought they were dying as he married a lesbian who hates him enough to try to kill him at their wedding. Now that's a bad day.

[dtissagirl]

I am curious, what was the thematic point of Maseo?  I mean, it turns out he really was just a bad guy.  I think that's the only particularly surprising thing about the episode.

He didn't even came off to me as an ~evil guy. He came off coward/weakass dude who abandoned his wife after their son died and went on the most ~tortuous~ path he could find afterwards, in a series of spectacularly stupid moves [abandoning wife, joining the LoA, giving Ra's the virus]. Maybe as a punishment on himself? I basically was left thinking if ONLY he had gone to a shrink instead of Ra's.

[Menrva]

So despite my initial decision to not watch this train wreck, my curiosity won out and I'm watching it. Albeit while folding laundry and chores. Not finished yet, but just a few initial impressions:

 

It really, really disgusts me how Ra's only sees his daughter as a uterus. His fearless, highly skilled, clever, badass daughter is merely a vessel for his bloodline. And knowing Nyssa is gay, the insistence on this forced marriage, to the ex-boyfriend of her dead lover is even more distasteful. I hate MG's bullshit line about how "You know Ra's is eeevvviiillll, right?" as if that just excuses the weak-ass plot line. Ra's is evil, so of course he's a homophobe too? It's just such 2-dimensional thinking. Does MG want us to think Ra's is angling for a pundit job at Fox when Oliver takes over? I wish I could explain myself better. It's just really frustrating.

 

Tatsu was just amazing. Wish she could stay longer. I'll miss Maseo, even if he was kind of a bad guy. Laurel, just go away. I actually like MM more than you right now. Your Canary Cry was just as goofy as the first time I saw it. And your costume in daylight is even worse. 

[Lady Calypso]

Ok, so after waking up this morning and processing the episode, I did have another thought. I don't know if it's right at all, but I guess we'll see in the first couple of scenes of the finale. 

 

I don't think Ra's was buying the whole 'Maseo is the spy', despite the fact that he did it once more. I think Ra's was actually a little bit more suspicious, so what if Malcolm and Oliver planned for Malcolm to betray him, so Oliver could enact the fake virus plan? Now, I'm not sure if this is right, as I'd have to rewatch the episode, but it would get Ra's into 100% trusting Oliver, because why would he kill off his friends if he wasn't truly brainwashed? Then Malcolm is still to blame and Felicity can still reveal that he's alive to the world. But it did make me think, especially since Oliver had this plan in place just in case anyway. 

 

Man, and Malcolm/Felicity would have made an epic team if he wasn't the shadiest shady character to have ever shaded. I like John Barrowman and Emily Bett Rickards interacting. They have an easy rapport that I would buy in any other show/circumstance. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Ditto about the wedding; it just wouldn't have been good timing. I could very well be wrong about Lauriver (and my Olicity-shipping heart hopes I am) but we've seen at least two instances now of Felicity metaphorically wringing her hands over Oliver's death while Laurel stands by insisting that he's still around. Now, Oliver has no way of knowing about that, and to his face she does (as she has so frequently) question and doubt if not belittle him, but as you said the writers are dumb.

You know how sometimes shows will sort of hint at the overall arc of the show in the first season (or pilot) before they're sure the show will take off? I think I'm seeing signs of a retread of season 1 themes. I suspect they're at the very least hedging their bets if not actively planning a Lauriver reconciliation (or at least hook up) down the line. Because comics, or whatever.

ETA: Ok, I rewatched the Laurel/Felicity/Diggle scene I was thinking of, and Laurel doesn't actually stick up for Oliver as much as I remembered. So maybe I'm full of it? I still think its a possibility, though I am a pessimist and maybe I'm just preparing for the worst. ;-)

 

Laurel does not only NOT stick up for Oliver but she's pretty much dropped Oliver at this point. I wouldn't worry about Lauriver seeds being planted in this episode where the camera cuts from Oliver to Felicity during the wedding vows, Felicity said "My Oliver" in front of Laurel and the latter didn't even blink and Oliver's tortured look at Felicity after announcing his impending nuptials. 

 

As for the rest of the ep, I was entertained even while my head ached a little trying to figure out who believes what about whom. I'm still OK with Diggle being furious at Oliver over Lyla and the baby. Yes, Lyla can take care of herself, she is an ARGUS agent, etc. etc. but this is Diggle reacting to Oliver using Digg's weakness. That's still a huge line Oliver crossed in my book, though I understand that he was out of options. (Someone up thread mentioned why other people wouldn't work as bait). I just hope this rift doesn't go on for too long and they all learn a lesson from this.

 

Laughed at Felicity's flying tablet and her reaction to Malcolm's save. In fact, I loved everything between Malcolm and Felicity. If they're keeping MM next season, I want more scenes with them.

 

Digg and Felicity. I love how she called him out on hospitalizing criminals and how he apologized and acknowledged she was right. Their friendship is one of the best things about this show and I've really missed seeing it this season. Seeing them "die" holding hands was painful even knowing it really wasn't the end.

 

Ray and Felicity were actually cute in their scene. I chuckled at Felicity looking above her head when Ray mentioned a dark cloud following her. For now I'm going to think Ray handed over his shares, not the actual company to Felicity, until the show says otherwise.

 

Cried over Tatsu and Maseo. Both Maseo and Ra's have been written poorly as characters, but Karl Yune added something to Maseo that made me root for him to have his happy ending with Tatsu (even though I had a feeling he was going to bite it, too).

 

 

The look between Oliver and Felicity after he announced his marriage was painful. Good thing Ra's wasn't looking because that was all Oliver, not Al Sah-him, asking for understanding and forgiveness. EBR managed to convey shock, confusion, disbelief, devastation in a matter of seconds. Really good work by her in this ep.

[dtissagirl]

Which brings me back to one more point that I wanted to clarify: I do think that Oliver should have trusted his team a lot more than he did - and certainly, he should have realized, after their understandable lack of enthusiasm for teaming up with Malcolm before this, that they were not too likely to believe anything that Malcolm said - though he was quick to agree with Malcolm when Malcolm pointed that out.

 

I completely agree with you that Oliver should have trusted Team Arrow in all of this. Because that was the entire point of season two in solidifying them as a team. And we just had episode 319 a few weeks ago, with Oliver learning that he needs to LET HIS TEAM HELP HIM.

 

I actually think what Oliver learned from being kept in the dark about Roy's fake death was that he should do a fake out as well, because hahaha, typical Oliver to learn the wrong lesson, but I think it goes further than this.

 

Imo, the biggest problem in this episode -- actually, the problem with last week's episode as well -- is that it sure looks like they're writing scripts backwards. It looks like they're writing Arrow with one thing only in mind: ~shocking the audience~. They're coming up with these outrageous shockers and cliffhangers [Oliver must marry Nyssa! Oliver must destroy Starling City with the flashback virus! Team Arrow must die in the end of the episode!], and THEN they're writing towards these shocking moments.

 

Which means characterization, and, you know, Earth logic goes to shit because this kind of writing requires a very specific thing: keeping the audience in the dark about a bunch of crap, so that the SURPRISE, BITCHES! moments can stick their landing.

 

It's Writing for Gotchas 101! Oliver can't alert Dig and Felicity that he's gonna fake kill them, because the audience has to go OMIGOD DID EVOL OLIVER JUST KILL TEAM ARROW? WHYYYYYyyyy??!!

 

Sure, they could have gone the Leverage route and do that thing wherein Team Arrow knew about it all and we saw it in quick flashbacks, just as they did last season with Slade and the cameras and the syringe, but they decided not to for whatever reason [bad writers make bad decisions], and then lampshaded it by Malcolm calling Felicity, Dig and Laurel bad actors. Or maybe they kept them in the dark BECAUSE they wanted that punch line in.

 

But at least for me, it's impossible to try to understand WHY any character is doing anything on this show right now, without looking at the story structure and realizing that they're writing to fool ME -- the audience -- into having these OMG moments. Oliver is doing something maybe unforgivable because they decided I need to be duped. That's where I am, and that's probably why I managed to enjoy this episode overall. I've accepted The Dumb instead of being frustrated by it.

Edited May 7, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

Presumably there is an administrative structure in place at QC/Palmer Technologies and they are all competent at their jobs because otherwise  Ray wouldn't have had all that time to play with his suit. Felicity will be frustrated by all the meetings she's expected to attend but maybe she can hire someone who will lean in for her.

 I think the worst moment was the " I can't believe he's marrying her." I mean....bigger problems, Felicity! I love you, but wow.

 

It speaks to the trust issue that is pivotal for Team Arrow here.  Oliver told her he loved her,  he couldn't get through this without knowing she was safe and happy, he asked her to trust him. Now not only is she captured and in chains, he's just told her he's marrying Nyssa.  It's another blow to the trust that he's asking from her. It's his behaviour that is indicating that she can't trust him after all that is the biggest problem.

So maybe this Nanda Parbat band of misfits is just a sham LoA.  Strictly for the tourists.    Maybe the real Ra's Al Ghul can't be bothered with the likes of the Arrow and his silly friends.   The real Ra's and his daughter Talia are probably at this moment tangling with a real superhero who protects Gotham City. 

The Ra's plot this season has been a massive fail and just gets worse and worse.  I don't know if it's because the writers are blinded by the comics or if they can't write a real villain (although Slade was very scary) but this Ra's just gets worse and worse.

 

 Other random thoughts: Poor Nyssa still find it hard to believe the daughter of the Demon couldn't stab Oliver to death if she wanted to. They grossly underestimate her skills against him.

As much as I love Nyssa, the stupidest thing in the episode was trying to stab Oliver at the ceremony, standing because her father and a score of ninjas.  Why didn't she wait till the marriage bed if she wanted to kill him?

 

I guess my question is, what should have Oliver done differently?   I have no reason to think he wouldn't have spared them that mental torture if he could have, so what 's his other options specifically?

This:

 

THIS!!!!  This is what I keep going back to - right after Felicity tells him that he needs to let people help him, he choices to trust Malcolm over his TEAM.

If this were an isolated case, then I'd say sure, Oliver did what he could. But the lesson ever since The Undertaking and especially this season has been the Oliver behaves like an idiot when he tries to do things alone.  And yet, he keeps doing it over and over again.

 

At this point, I have zero sympathy left for Oliver, and very little interest. He is his own worst enemy and he never learns. If the EPs want to do a spin-off with Diggle and Felicity, leaving Oliver in Nanda Parbat, I'm on board.

 

This episode was so  unrelentingly depressing, I went to bed last night and cried. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

I actually wrote a big long thing in the Spoilers thread that I won't get back into here, but I actually think Oliver's keeping mum on his plan was more an issue of him thinking that Felicity and Diggle don't trust his judgment than him not trusting them. I also think he didn't have much of a plan other than that he had to trust Malcolm to let him know what was going to happen with his ascension to Ra's, which included destroying Starling. If he thought this was a five-month plan, I can see why he didn't tell them - can you imagine what would happen if he told them that he was going to have to destroy the city and that they just had to sit tight and wait to find out how and when that was going to happen based on some information that he got from Malcolm of all people? 

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

"This episode was so  unrelentingly depressing, I went to bed last night and cried."

 

Oh man, please don't let it get to you that much!  Just remember, Oliver is played by an actor who's seriously going to be in the sequel to the remake of TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES!

[statsgirl]

Felicity and Diggle have good reason not to trust Oliver's judgement -- he's been making idiotic decisions all season because he's been making them by himself rather than talking it over with them.  Last season Slade was a genuinely scary villain because he crept in through the back and tried to take down Oliver and everything he loved. This season everything bad other than Sara's death has been a result of Oliver making bad decisions by himself.

 

I assume Oliver didn't know about the virus when he decided to go undercover. But he could have told Felicity or even just Diggle that he was going to try to get back to them.  They could still have gone through "the Oliver is brainwashed!" of the last episode thinking that he had failed to keep his identity, but it would have made them more open to the idea that he was trying to help when he asked them to trust him in this episode.

 

The problem is that the writing was going for maximum shock value instead of building up a coherent story.

 

 

 Just remember, Oliver is played by an actor who's seriously going to be in the sequel to the remake of TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES!

Yeah.  My mistake was buying into this show's world.

[Misanthrope]

Monty, if "Night of a Million Billion Ninjas" is a Tick shout-out, please marry me.

[calliope1975]

I had a thought.   Is it possible that this Ra's and this League of Assassins are not the REAL Ra's or the real LoA?  Remember in the first Nolan Batman movie, Ra's allowed Bruce Wayne to initially believe that Asian guy was Ra's?   It doesn't seem credible to me that the Ra's in Arrow is the Big Bad he's made out to be.    This Ra's seems to have a man-crush on Oliver Queen, he's more invested in planning a wedding than safeguarding the well-traveled Appalachian trail to his hidey-hole in the mountains, he's wearing Bea Arthur's outfits and he's seems obsessive compulsive about suffixing everything with "of the Demon."   "I will now apply the styling gel of the Demon ..."  

 

And the so-called Assassins who comprise the League?   They got their asses whupped by Laurel and Felicity will probably send them a bill for the tablet.  (Kudos to Laurel: this time she wore street clothes to the clandestine meeting in the warehouse).

 

So maybe this Nanda Parbat band of misfits is just a sham LoA.  Strictly for the tourists.    Maybe the real Ra's Al Ghul can't be bothered with the likes of the Arrow and his silly friends.   The real Ra's and his daughter Talia are probably at this moment tangling with a real superhero who protects Gotham City. 

 

This has been my head canon for awhile. This Ra's is an embarrassment to his namesake. I hope Denny O'Neil (Ra's creator) quit watching. His motivations aren't even consistent. He wants Nyssa dead. Just kidding. He wants her to marry Oliver. This is all because of some random prophecy. Nopes, just want some blood heirs. What? I was really looking forward to Ra's al Ghul and was deeply disappointed in the execution.

 

I googled images of the ATOM costume to try to figure this out. Not to be a perve but the bathroom issue bothers me about most superhero costumes, too. I think that metal panel situated directly on his crotch is detachable. So, um, I'ma put this under a spoiler cut because I couldn't think of a way to make it sound less... suggestive?

Palmer could've just removed the panel while flying, pulled down his tights a little, and whipped it out to give the ocean (or some corn fields if NP is in Wyoming) a golden shower while on his way to Nanda Parbat.

 

 

Didn't Tony Stark have a filtration system in his IM2 suit? I'm sure Ray's been marathoning some Marvel flicks. Maybe he got a bit of inspiration.

 

Honestly, that's how I prefer my TV business transactions, haha. I like that entire companies can be transferred from individual to individual with just a simple signature. So much less messy than IRL!

 

All the business and legal stuff is terrible. I'm always going - but that's not how that works... So, while, no, I don't think RP can just sign his company over to FS, it makes as much sense as OQ signing a legal pad and Isabel stealing QC from him. In that, none of these things make sense, so I just roll with it. Get your company, boo!

 

So despite my initial decision to not watch this train wreck, my curiosity won out and I'm watching it. Albeit while folding laundry and chores. Not finished yet, but just a few initial impressions:

 

It really, really disgusts me how Ra's only sees his daughter as a uterus. His fearless, highly skilled, clever, badass daughter is merely a vessel for his bloodline. And knowing Nyssa is gay, the insistence on this forced marriage, to the ex-boyfriend of her dead lover is even more distasteful. I hate MG's bullshit line about how "You know Ra's is eeevvviiillll, right?" as if that just excuses the weak-ass plot line. Ra's is evil, so of course he's a homophobe too? It's just such 2-dimensional thinking. Does MG want us to think Ra's is angling for a pundit job at Fox when Oliver takes over? I wish I could explain myself better. It's just really frustrating.

 

Tatsu was just amazing. Wish she could stay longer. I'll miss Maseo, even if he was kind of a bad guy. Laurel, just go away. I actually like MM more than you right now. Your Canary Cry was just as goofy as the first time I saw it. And your costume in daylight is even worse. 

 

Ra's is really old right? And really evil, too? Is he racist as well? How many black LOA members are there? How much more evil would he be if he did change with the times? He would have to, I presume, being hundreds of years old. If he didn't care that his daughter was gay, and treated her like any one else. I'd just like him to be consistent in his motives. Make Nyssa the heir, as she was always supposed to be, then find out that OQ didn't die and Maseo saved him. Send her to kill him, but she still has some sort of loyalty or affection or whatever to TA, and is conflicted. Ra's could then reveal that Sara's still alive and hold that over Nyssa's head. But Sara's not right in the head because of the LP, and maybe she's out murdering her way through town putting her in conflict with TA and her father. I don't know. Anything would be better than this mess.

 

In short, this entire season could have been better, but it's not.

[apinknightmare]

Felicity and Diggle have good reason not to trust Oliver's judgement -- he's been making idiotic decisions all season because he's been making them by himself rather than talking it over with them. 

 

Never said they didn't. But Oliver obviously knows they don't, and if this turns out as well as it seems it will, then it might be a step back in the right direction for Oliver and Felicity at least.

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[slayer2]

With Nyssa, I think she holds back when she and Oliver actually fight. She still loves Sara, and holds back because Oliver loves Sara, and Sara loved Oliver. I think Oliver holds back as well, it's all about Sara. Neither one can go full blast against someone who meant so much to Sara. That's also a reason Nyssa trained Laurel. She knows Laurel's not going to stop being a vigilante, but she can damn sure train her to be better. It's a way for Nyssa to protect Sara's sister while honoring Sara herself.

As for the knife, I think Oliver and Nyssa are playing Ra's. They had to do it, because Ra's would be expecting Nyssa to try something.

I like these ideas, I don't necessarily buy them from these writers but I'm going to make them canon in my head.

[statsgirl]

It's the same spinning wheel all over again. Oliver knows he's been making bad decisions because he didn't trust Diggle and Felicity to talk to them and get their input -- so what does he do? Makes the same mistake yet again by making a decision and shutting his best advisors out.

 

You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

[apinknightmare]

It's the same spinning wheel all over again. Oliver knows he's been making bad decisions because he didn't trust Diggle and Felicity to talk to them and get their input -- so what does he do? Makes the same mistake yet again by making a decision and shutting his best advisors out.

 

You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

He had already gotten Diggle and Felicity's input on him working with Malcolm. They didn't like it - but who else could prepare him for his inevitable ascension to Ra's? What on earth would the have done when they found out that Oliver was basing his decisions on information he got on Malcolm, especially when it came out that Ra's was going to make him destroy Starling? Think they would've let Oliver's plan play out, or would they have intervened? 

 

And if they wind up defeating Ra's based on help from Malcolm, all those stupid decisions he made (which now have some basis in logic now that we know what he's been doing), will be proven right. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

"And if they wind up defeating Ra's based on help from Malcolm, all those stupid decisions he made (which now have some basis in logic now that we know what he's been doing), will be proven right."

 

Just because it turns out okay (which it will, this is a superhero show) doesn't mean those decisions still were not objectively stupid.  Going over Niagara Falls in a barrel is a stupid decision...surviving the fall does not make it less stupid.

[apinknightmare]

"And if they wind up defeating Ra's based on help from Malcolm, all those stupid decisions he made (which now have some basis in logic now that we know what he's been doing), will be proven right."

 

Just because it turns out okay (which it will, this is a superhero show) doesn't mean those decisions still were not objectively stupid.  Going over Niagara Falls in a barrel is a stupid decision...surviving the fall does not make it less stupid.

 

Not that all Oliver's stupid decisions (like the Oliver Queen vs. Arrow identity crisis) would be right, but his decision to work with Malcolm based on information that we didn't know about doesn't seem as stupid as it did at face value when he first did it. 

[Password]

Just because it turns out okay (which it will, this is a superhero show) doesn't mean those decisions still were not objectively stupid. Going over Niagara Falls in a barrel is a stupid decision...surviving the fall does not make it less stupid.

This is where things become problematic for me. Oliver's dad specifically told him the end does not justify the means in his video in ep 14. But won't this disprove it? If it works out, TA eventually work with Oliver in spite of his deceit and the villain is beaten, where will it take them?

The finale will be very interesting for me because I have questions that need answering!!!

[Moda29]

So, hot Roy has to go again, but we're still stuck with Laurel? Not cool show, not cool.<br />Also, that was the most awkward wedding ever. And how many more times can Malcolm Merlin predictably betray everyone? Probably at least 5.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Moda29

[apinknightmare]

This is where things become problematic for me. Oliver's dad specifically told him the end does not justify the means in his video in ep 14. But won't this disprove it? If it works out, TA eventually work with Oliver in spite of his deceit and the villain is beaten, where will it take them?

 

They failed with that lesson - or just put it in there to make us suspect Malcolm, who it seems is going to turn out to be a good guy (unless we see him working with Damien Darhk at the very end of the finale). How exactly did Oliver deceive them? It's unclear at this point what exactly he went into his role as the heir knowing apart from the fact that Ra's is going to make him destroy Starling at some point and oh, he's getting that information from Malcolm, who Diggle and Felicity do not trust and also hate. Was there a plan apart from let's see what Ra's makes me do in the next 5 months? What exactly was he going to tell them? I'm working on something but I don't know exactly what it is yet, but I'm getting my info from Malcolm, so sit tight? 

[slayer2]

So, hot Roy has to go again, but we're still stuck with Laurel? Not cool show, not cool.<br />Also, that was the most awkward wedding ever. And how many more times can Malcolm Merlin predictably betray everyone? Probably at least 5.

I think you mean Roy and I'm happy with Laurel.

[Moda29]

Yes I did, what a difference a letter makes. Laurel is better now that they're writing her as less clueless, but still far from my favorite part of the show.

[slayer2]

Yes I did, what a difference a letter makes. Laurel is better now that they're writing her as less clueless, but still far from my favorite part of the show.

I feel the same way about Olicity but we focus on the things we enjoy, I'm an expert at this, I'm a Smallville survivor.

[nksarmi]

Not really because trusting and working with Malcolm is what got him into this mess to begin with.  Really Felicity was right all along......getting in bed with Malcolm Merlyn was a very bad idea. :)

And if they wind up defeating Ra's based on help from Malcolm, all those stupid decisions he made (which now have some basis in logic now that we know what he's been doing), will be proven right. 

Not that all Oliver's stupid decisions (like the Oliver Queen vs. Arrow identity crisis) would be right, but his decision to work with Malcolm based on information that we didn't know about doesn't seem as stupid as it did at face value when he first did it. 

Wait....do you mean when he didn't just hand Malcolm over to Nyssa and say "here's the guy responsible for Sara's death"?  Because no, I gotta say that was still pretty stupid.

[apinknightmare]

Not really because trusting and working with Malcolm is what got him into this mess to begin with.  Really Felicity was right all along......getting in bed with Malcolm Merlyn was a very bad idea. :)

 

No it wasn't. Even if Oliver had handed Malcolm over to the League, he'd still be in trouble. Malcolm would've threatened to show Ra's that video he had of Thea. So, Malcolm framing his sister in some convoluted scheme to kill Ra's is what got him into this mess. Based on what we know now, what exactly was stupid about his decision to work with Malcolm after he came back from NP? He was obviously given a heads up about what would be required of him to become Ra's. He got information on the drugs they'd use on him to avoid being brainwashed...failing to see the idiocy here. 

 

 

Wait....do you mean when he didn't just hand Malcolm over to Nyssa and say "here's the guy responsible for Sara's death"?  Because no, I gotta say that was still pretty stupid.

 

Never said that wasn't stupid. But he still would've ended up where he is now because Malcolm would've threatened Oliver with that video he had of Thea killing Sara. And there is no way Felicity could've deleted the video and known with absolute certainty that there were no more copies of it anywhere. 

 

Felicity and Diggle questioned his decision to work with Malcolm when he returned from the "dead" - and so far it seems as if he was right to do it.

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[nksarmi]

Malcolm would've threatened to show Ra's that video he had of Thea. So, Malcolm framing his sister in some convoluted scheme to kill Ra's is what got him into this mess.

 

Ok see this is what the whole seasons come down to for me - what the hell is going on with Malcolm??!?!?!

 

Either Malcolm is the evil bastard who mind-raped Thea, forced her to kill Sara, and would have turned her over to save his own hide so Oliver had to go fight Ra's......

 

Sidenote: Looking back, I'm not even sure Oliver ever had to deal with Ra's in regards to Sara's death.  Ra's was only taking action to appease Nyssa, he didn't actually care that Sara died.  And now we know that as soon as Thea told Nyssa what happened, she just like Laurel, she laid the blame at Malcolm's feet.  So we can pretty easily conclude that if Oliver had told Nyssa the truth, she would have considered Thea a victim and gone after Merlyn's head.  I can almost understand why Oliver didn't take this chance, but the alternative was to just kill Merlyn.  If ever there as a cause to break your "no kill" rule, avenging the man who mind-raped your sister to kill your ex-lover might have been that moment.

 

Or Malcolm is a loving father who never would have turned Thea over to the League....

 

Just what, six weeks after Oliver goes to fight Ra's and die - he tells the team that Malcolm was bluffing and would never rat out Thea.  When did Oliver gain that insight into Malcolm character?  And why didn't he call Malcolm bluff before if that was the case?

 

I know it all comes down to very bad writing, but the Malcolm and Ra's stories this season have sucked and as far as I'm concerned, they have done serious damage to Oliver as a character in the process.

[Delphi]

Why exactly does Thea keep turning her fire on in the loft? It's May. Is Starling that cold? Is she anemic?

In the comics, when Dinah doesn't have her metagene, she simply uses a handheld device for her cry and I really don't see the point of this fake cry thing. It's stupid. Seriously...I'd rather they give her a damn superpower.

And honestly, I think Ray got the best line of the night,

"You're getting married? I guess there really is a kettle for every pot."

[slayer2]

Why exactly does Thea keep turning her fire on in the loft? It's May. Is Starling that cold? Is she anemic?

In the comics, when Dinah doesn't have her metagene, she simply uses a handheld device for her cry and I really don't see the point of this fake cry thing. It's stupid. Seriously...I'd rather they give her a damn superpower.

And honestly, I think Ray got the best line of the night,

"You're getting married? I guess there really is a kettle for every pot."

Ray's line was great. I'd love it if they gave Laurel the Canary Cry in a particle accelerator way. I honestly feel their "no powers" rule writes the show into a lot of corners. Green Arrow has enemies with powers and he still defeats them so yeah, I wish the Canary Cry were real as well.

[catahoulamama]

I thought the whole episodes was gross.  What wasn't depressing was bad writing, and much of the depressing stuff was too.

 

In Canada, there was no preview so you're left with the image of Felicity, Diggle, Ray etc. dying while the wedding ceremony goes on.  Tiffany Vogt was right about the wedding not mattering, I'm so upset about the rest of the episode, including Roy lead Thea for the stupidest of reasons (maybe she wants to be on the run with you, idiot), that I just can't care about the wedding at all.

 

Everythihg that seemed positive, like destroying the virus or Thea re-connecting with Roy, ended up depressing and horrible.  What were the writers thinking?

I'm left wondering what this season has accomplished (aside from Olicity sex). We got to see what Oliver was up to in Hong Kong.  Other than that, not a whole lot of forward movement on the story. Got Olicity to "dating" status, only to literally blow it up five minutes in.  "Killed" Oliver, only not. "Killed" Roy, only not. "Killed" Thea, only not.  Destroyed all growth for Quentin Lance and reset him to S1 levels of grief induced assholerly only minus the alcoholism.

 

Felicity gets some. Laurel gets some..buckles. Ray gets some, and a tricky new suit, AND a spinoff. The Diggles get some rings and a baby.

 

But all this Ra's stuff? What's the point? Oliver loses his green leathers and gets a new black suit more in keeping with his mournful self-loathing attitude? Just feels like they pissed away a lot of potential for this season and in the grand scope of the story, not a lot of forward movement. IDK, maybe someone was just in a massive depression and needed to work out their anger, pain, and general displeasure over pretty much everything and this is the result. They really need to regroup and reset for S4

[statsgirl]

No it wasn't. Even if Oliver had handed Malcolm over to the League, he'd still be in trouble. Malcolm would've threatened to show Ra's that video he had of Thea.

IIRC, Oliver didn't know about Thea or the video when Nyssa wanted to take Malcolm away for his crimes in the Undertaking. So his decision was basely purely on MM being Thea's bio-dad, and not because Malcolm could blackmail him.

 

 

He had already gotten Diggle and Felicity's input on him working with Malcolm. They didn't like it - but who else could prepare him for his inevitable ascension to Ra's? What on earth would the have done when they found out that Oliver was basing his decisions on information he got on Malcolm, especially when it came out that Ra's was going to make him destroy Starling? Think they would've let Oliver's plan play out, or would they have intervened?

The problem started when Oliver returned from the dead and again said "My way or the doorway."  Diggle and Felicity weren't given the chance to state their positions, Oliver didn't realize what an idiotic idea the "only the student can defeat the master is" and he was left with only his own brain instead of input from Diggle and Felicity which has helped him countless times in the past.

 

It's entirely possible that they would have let Oliver's plan play out once they understood the stakes. Maybe Diggle, with his combat experience, could have  brainstormed possible problems, such as Ra's doing it earlier, or other ways to double-cross Oliver. Maybe Felicity could have worked up some tech so Oliver could jam electronics himself if he needed to, or communicate if he needed help.

 

Maybe they could have come up with a way to keep Malcolm in line so that he didn't betray them.  Dealing with Malcolm Merlyn, who has betrayed them over and over,  without have a back-up plan is like going to a gunfight unarmed.

 

But Oliver didn't give Diggle and Felicity a chance.  That's not how you treat a partner, whether it's a brother-in-arms like Diggle, the girl you keep saying you love like Felicity, or the little sister you think you're protecting but you really aren't because you keep making stupid decisions.  Oliver's love is worth very little to the people he keeps hurting because he won't stop trying to control them.

 

As much as this show was about Team Arrow starting this season, at this point Oliver doesn't deserve Diggle or Felicity. 

 

ETA:

 

I'm left wondering what this season has accomplished (aside from Olicity sex).

If Oliver can finally get the message that he needs his team, I might be willing to say the season was worth something. 

 

But he never does, each season, and multiple times this season, he's told that he's better with his team than alone.  But he's got to have the flattest learning curve ever because it lasts maybe and episode, or over the summer hiatus, and then it's wash, rinse repeat again.

Edited May 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[catahoulamama]

So, I just spent the better part of an hour laughing maniacally and shouting, "THIS SHOW IS SO DUUMMMBBB!!!!!!" at my tv. I'm guessing that's not the response they were going for. (But who knows -- the way the plot's been this season, maybe that's exactly the response they were going for.)

This was me as well. Way too much unintentional humor in this episode. That and I have a stiff neck from all the cringeworthy scenes that were reminiscent of a live action cartoon.  They do similar stuff on Flash, but it totally fits there. It's a way lighter show. They sold me on Arrow being the superhero show "grounded in reality", so all the CGI flying scenes with Ray and jet just result in laughter and/or cringing.  It just doesn't fit here IMO. 

 

Also, Laurel fighting in mask and costume in broad daylight just furthers the cartoony aspect for me, too. Did she have to put on the suit? She couldn't fight in street clothes? It's not like she has tricky weapons built into her suit to help her out. The whole thing just felt messy in general.

[catahoulamama]

Also, for all the arguments about whether Oliver could've/would've/should've told Felicity and/or Diggle he WASN'T leaving them for dead, you'd think with all of the dire situations they've all been in together over the years, they'd have a system in place - some code word, or signal, a wink, nod, anything to let each other know what's up - like, *wink* touch my nose = just go with whatever I'm saying/doing and it's gonna be fine.  LOL

[apinknightmare]

Please delete. It's really not worth arguing over anymore. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[MDKNIGHT]

I understand how some people may feel so negatively about Nyssa, a gay character, being forced to marry a man but I look at it as just another way of showing Rahs is EVIL!!! If they were trying to pass this off as OK behavior then yes, sure, let's riot. But the way I see it this is like if they had Rahs decapitate someone for being a specific religion it wouldn't mean the show is anti that religion, it would mean you are showing Rahs is a bigot. Making him a homophobe and mysoginist, taking agency away from his daughter, is not in and of itself a bad thing. Showing a good character doing something like that would be real bad. Heck I'm not forgiving completely the writers of Flash for having a good character lie and lie and lie to his GROWN daughter thus treating her like a child. But at least he didn't try to marry her to somebody not her choice (and not her sexual preference). Pretty sure the writers aren't THAT bad. Personally I'm hoping Nyssa winds up cleaning her dad's clock and I'm sure people would cheer if she did.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Also, for all the arguments about whether Oliver could've/would've/should've told Felicity and/or Diggle he WASN'T leaving them for dead, you'd think with all of the dire situations they've all been in together over the years, they'd have a system in place - some code word, or signal, a wink, nod, anything to let each other know what's up - like, *wink* touch my nose = just go with whatever I'm saying/doing and it's gonna be fine. LOL

Ha, imagine the meeting where they would decide on the Team Arrow version of a safety word.

Roy: What about yellow jello?

Felicity: You mean for a snack later?

Roy: No, for the super secret code word!

Diggle: Roy, how could we possibly work that phrase in during some sort of combat or kidnapping situation that wouldn't arouse the other side's suspicions?

Roy: You could say, "If you're going to kill me, at least let me have some yellow jello!"

Diggle: Uhhh, no. Any other suggestions?

Edited May 7, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Reishe]

Why exactly does Thea keep turning her fire on in the loft? It's May. Is Starling that cold? Is she anemic?

 

I think it's because she only owns one shirt that doesn't bare her midriff.

 

And honestly, I think Ray got the best line of the night,

"You're getting married? I guess there really is a kettle for every pot."

 

Was he mixing cliches on purpose? B/c the saying is that there is a lid for every pot. But if he's implying the pot is calling the kettle black as well... huh.

[MDKNIGHT]

"If Oliver can finally get the message that he needs his team, I might be willing to say the season was worth something. "

I think this is further evidence Barry Allen is smarter than Oliver Queen. Barry had a problem. He kept it from his team. Felicity of all people told him he needed to share with his team to get their support. He learned that and went to his team. Oliver on the other hand not so much. Somebody upthread made the observation that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is thought to be madness. It made me wonder though if Oliver really isn't mentally ill. Kidding aside he did go through a lot on the island and even after that there has been SO much to deal with including death of multiple loved ones in the most in your face violent ways possible (can't wrap my head around seeing your mom stabbed to death in front of you when you are already pretty traumatized) what if he really IS insane? I think I'm going to filter his actions through the premise- What if the character has a HUGE case of PTSD? Would his dumb decisions be any more excusable? It may help.

[Guest]

No, but seriously. Did viewers genuinely believe that Diggle, Felicity & Co were dying? Have they not watched TV before? You don't kill off your entire cast in one episode. That's why that entire cliffhanger was pointless because there was no emotional stakes. You didn't need a promo to tell you that.

[Hook75]

I just can't take Felicity anymore.  With each epe, I like her less and less.

 

I was actually excited about Nyssa/Oliver wedding and am kinda hoping it'd stick....or at least that they'd share many many scenes together in S4 and join forces. Oliver, Thea and Nyssa can form a new team while the others keep whining and bitching about Oliver.

[catahoulamama]

Ha, imagine the meeting where they would decide on the Team Arrow version of a safety word.

Roy: What about yellow jello?

Felicity: You mean for a snack later?

Roy: No, for the super secret code word!

Diggle: Roy, how could we possibly work that phrase in during some sort of combat or kidnapping situation that wouldn't arouse the other side's suspicions?

Roy: You could say, "If you're going to kill me, at least let me have some yellow jello!"

Diggle: Uhhh, no. Any other suggestions?

Seriously though, watch a baseball game. They use all kinds of signals for a million different things. Scratch my ear, rub my nose, put my hands in my pocket = steal second. You'd think one of them would have thought of something like that, but then we don't get all of these enthralling miscommunications compounded on each other for season after season. LOL

No, but seriously. Did viewers genuinely believe that Diggle, Felicity & Co were dying? Have they not watched TV before? You don't kill off your entire cast in one episode. That's why that entire cliffhanger was pointless because there was no emotional stakes. You didn't need a promo to tell you that.

No, but for the sake of the story, you kind of have to go with what's on your screen at the moment until they show/tell you otherwise. They don't survive until we see them survive, and they (in the moment) genuinely thought they were dying.

[Guest]

No, but for the sake of the story, you kind of have to go with what's on your screen at the moment until they show/tell you otherwise. They don't survive until we see them survive, and they (in the moment) genuinely thought they were dying.

 

I get what you're saying, totally, but I guess I just don't watch TV like that. Plus this show is so predictable there was just never any way Oliver would leave them like that so the whole scene felt pointless to me.

[kieyra]

I feel like I've been waiting years for that kid to die.

[statsgirl]

Different people watch TV differently, and even individuals watch different shows differently.

 

If this were Grey's Anatomy, which I acknowledge as shlock TV, I wouldn't have a problem with seeing everyone dying because I'd know it was a con.  Shows like that are living wallpaper for me.

 

But because I bought into Arrow and created it as whole universe in my head as I did with Babylon5, Deep Space 9 and Farscape in earlier years, I was actually there in the cell with Diggle, Felicity, Ray etc.  I put myself as a person in there, to experience it with them because I thought this show was worth it. My bad.

[AyChihuahua]

I get what you're saying, totally, but I guess I just don't watch TV like that. Plus this show is so predictable there was just never any way Oliver would leave them like that so the whole scene felt pointless to me.

We're watching a tv show, but the characters aren't.  They thought they were dying.  I'm hoping there's a quick scene in the next episode indicating that they had gotten Oliver's message.  Would really simple things up.

 

On another note, The 100 is a different kind of show, but not many people thought Clark would kill all the mountain men, including all the little kids.  But she did.  

[LeeshY]

I've held back commenting because I wanted to see how this played out, as so much happened these last three episodes that both excited and frustrated me, so before getting all worked up I decided to wait to see where they were going with it all. So I'm going against general consensus again to say I liked this episode set up.

I know this is a unpopular opinion but I have always liked Ray, mainly because he treated Felicity with both respect for her amazing brilliance but also as someone who you don't have to be all tortured to love. The writers did a great job synching their common characteristics (the "are they related" comments in both the Flash and from Oliver were genius). So I was totally on board when he showed up this episode to stop the plane, and weirdly got it when he basically gave the company to Felicity because let's face it, if he's going to be all super hero she's the only one qualified to run the place (speaking of which, do they have the budget for extras? There are never any workers around the place....)

I knew there was an end game for Oliver in that he wasn't evil but needed to be in order to "save his city", and I totally agree the 'everyone dies' is another fake out. But it sets up the finale nicely so in some ways it was to be expected they'd pull this. I mean come on. Oliver truly evil? THAT's when I stop watching.

I wish there was a way they could have kept both Tatsu and Maseo...they were far more interesting than Roy and Thea, even with Thea's transformation. Solid skills, a good backstory/relationship, and always in the know and sometimes a step ahead. I'm hoping they throw him in the healing pool and bring him back for S4.

Diggle. I didn't mind the anger, natch, it sorta had to happen. But I love the focus on how much this friendship has grown which that highlighted. Just, Diggle love...yay!

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but this episode just underlined for me that I love the show crossover. This way all the characters can still be themselves just in different situations. Felicity getting Palmer Technologies opens up a whole host of storylines for next season, and people popping in and out keeps it fresh. So yeah, I'm onboard with that. And since I seem to be a lonely Ray fan, bring on the Atom! Just adds more to the different layers they can play with!

I'm hoping with the (what we think is a) fake out they Oliver and Team Arrow prevail, and he ends up still running the League of Assassins, but for S4 it's more to support threats across the cities and dealing with old conflicts (for instance, an old LoA foe who doesn't care they're on the side of good now). Endless possibilities! So Die! Survive! We're used to it.

Finally, given this episode was blissfully lacking emphasis on the Oliver/Felicity love story I am hoping this means it will eventually fizzle and die. Never been onboard with that and maybe now Felicity can say to Oliver "sorry....I have too much responsibility and am too important to lose myself to this messed up relationship if you want me to always have your back as the Arrow and run this company" instead of him leaving her hanging because it's for the best.

Bring on the finale, let's see how they close this out and set up next season!

[HyacinthBucket]

I actually wrote a big long thing in the Spoilers thread that I won't get back into here, but I actually think Oliver's keeping mum on his plan was more an issue of him thinking that Felicity and Diggle don't trust his judgment than him not trusting them. I also think he didn't have much of a plan other than that he had to trust Malcolm to let him know what was going to happen with his ascension to Ra's, which included destroying Starling. If he thought this was a five-month plan, I can see why he didn't tell them - can you imagine what would happen if he told them that he was going to have to destroy the city and that they just had to sit tight and wait to find out how and when that was going to happen based on some information that he got from Malcolm of all people? 

I tend to think along these same lines.  I'd been reading the spoilers for the final two episodes, and nearly decided not to watch, but I'm glad I did.   I appreciated knowing right from the start that Oliver was still Oliver, and still in protective mode, and that made it easier for me to watch.  At that point, I had no doubt that he would not allow Team Arrow to be hurt.  I found the idea that Oliver was still trying to protect his team, family, and city to be something believable in a show where so much is unbelievable.  Desperate times call for desperate measures, and I think the stakes were high enough for him to not take the chance and alert the team to the fake virus.  As terrifying as it must have been, if any possible reassuring sign that Oliver could have given to them been detected by Ra's or his men, their fate would have been much worse.  Dig had already made it apparent that he (understandably) didn't trust Oliver in those few seconds they had alone together.  Why risk another attempt?  He already saw what Ra's was willing to do to his family by the attack on Thea.   

 

I'm certainly not saying he did everything right, or that Oliver is some kind of saint, but I can see why he made the decisions he did.  I'll also admit that I am mostly a casual viewer who doesn't take the show too seriously.  I just enjoy it for what it is, except for the torture parts.   I HATE those!

[slayer2]

I'm left wondering what this season has accomplished (aside from Olicity sex). We got to see what Oliver was up to in Hong Kong.  Other than that, not a whole lot of forward movement on the story. Got Olicity to "dating" status, only to literally blow it up five minutes in.  "Killed" Oliver, only not. "Killed" Roy, only not. "Killed" Thea, only not.  Destroyed all growth for Quentin Lance and reset him to S1 levels of grief induced assholerly only minus the alcoholism.

 

Felicity gets some. Laurel gets some..buckles. Ray gets some, and a tricky new suit, AND a spinoff. The Diggles get some rings and a baby.

 

But all this Ra's stuff? What's the point? Oliver loses his green leathers and gets a new black suit more in keeping with his mournful self-loathing attitude? Just feels like they pissed away a lot of potential for this season and in the grand scope of the story, not a lot of forward movement. IDK, maybe someone was just in a massive depression and needed to work out their anger, pain, and general displeasure over pretty much everything and this is the result. They really need to regroup and reset for S4

 

I agree it's some dark shit brewing, and this episode was no different, I mean they ended on the potential "death" of the entire cast. WTF? Sometimes I think the Flash is doing so much better because everyone saw Barry's happy go lucky face, dropped their anti-depressants and made a beeline for Central City.

[catahoulamama]

I agree it's some dark shit brewing, and this episode was no different, I mean they ended on the potential "death" of the entire cast. WTF? Sometimes I think the Flash is doing so much better because everyone saw Barry's happy go lucky face, dropped their anti-depressants and made a beeline for Central City.

Sometimes I think the some of the Flash's success is because people need the lighter, more positive vibe to counteract Arrow's darkness and depressing angst-a-thon this season. It would probably be even more successful if it aired the night after Arrow instead of before! ;)