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S03.E09: Crazy

Tara Ariano

By Tara Ariano
in Bates Motel [V]

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Timetoread

Timetoread

I'd forgotten about Dylan's connection to Bradley's father via the drug business. I agree that it's odd that she hasn't so much as asked about Dylan, right? All she did was make a comment about why Dylan and Norman let her run away. She almost sounded like she held them partially to blame. 

 

Doesn't it seem unlikely that Norman would imagine a gym in Bradley's old room? Also, I don't think his hallucinations have ever gone on for such a long period. Bradley is eating meals like a normal person. It's very different than with his hallucinations of Norma. 

 

I think I would have an easier time buying Bradley's presence being an elaborate hallucination on Norman's part if there weren't so many odd details. 

 

I hear you but even those odd details are - well odd.  Like for instance the ONE picture of Bradley.  The explanation could be that her mother is completely over the death of her only child and has tossed everything away OR it could be that Norman has only seen ONE picture of Bradley so that is the one he "places" in her house.  Also the way the house has "changed" because Norman didn't have enough of a memory of the real house to recreate it in his mind.  That she eats and stuff isn't that far off from a dead/stuffed dog being alive and running down the road.  This incarnation of Bradley is so Norman focused it is almost unreal.  Everyone, including her own mother has forgotten her, she appears to Norman in the middle of the night.  She needs Norman to take her places (in the town where she was born and raised).  She needs Norman to talk to her mother.  She needs Norman to give her a place to sleep.   She apologizes for the very thing that hurt Norman the most.  She begs his forgiveness, she begs him to have sex with her.  This is on the heels of Norman's realization that things are crumbling down around him and he feels like he is losing his Mother.  As Dylan said, his last blackout lasted all night.  This may very well be another one.  I have been wracking my brain - did we see Bradley leave safely or is there a possibility that Norman killed her a while ago off camera?

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truthaboutluv

truthaboutluv

(edited)

I think Bradley is real and the almost sex that didn't happen, resulting in Mother's appearance, confirmed that to me. Mother we know for a fact is in Norman's head and it is a voice that is now more present the more agitated, uncomfortable, anxious, etc. he gets. I cannot see Norman hallucinating Bradley which leads to an hallucination of almost sex with her that then leads to a hallucination of Mother telling him it's wrong. That's just too convoluted in my opinion.

 

I feel like going down that road may start leading to every single scene with Norman being second guessed. In my opinion, Bradley is back as one more thing to show Norman's descent into complete madness. In the first two seasons, with all his weirdness he was still able to have sex with Bradley and then later Cody in season 2 but now he physically can't even be with someone because he's become so twisted in his mind about sex, love, women and of course his love and feelings for his mother. 

 

This incarnation of Bradley is so Norman focused it is almost unreal.  Everyone, including her own mother has forgotten her, she appears to Norman in the middle of the night.  She needs Norman to take her places (in the town where she was born and raised).  She needs Norman to talk to her mother.  She needs Norman to give her a place to sleep.

 

 

These things do not seem strange to me because Bradley faked her death/suicide. So it's not so much that everyone has forgotten her but that to everyone BUT Norman and Dylan, she's dead. So it makes perfect sense to me it would be one of them she would reach out to. She didn't need Norman to take her places like she didn't know where she was going but more that she had no money, needed help and was basically desperate. And so Norman took her to the motel and told her to park the car in the woods so Norma and others wouldn't see it and suspect someone was at the motel. Again, it's not like she could have just gone up to everyone she knew and was close to for help, because all these people believe she's dead. Also she didn't immediately ask Norman to speak to her mother for her. Norman asked her what she was going to do seeing as her mother believes she's dead and she said she didn't know, maybe write a letter, make a call and then she suggested maybe Norman talking to her first to perhaps minimize the shock. 

 

And Bradley going to Norman for help is actually not that strange. Even after her interest in Dylan and completely ignoring all of Norman's letters while she was off in a mental institution (another reason most people in her life were able to fully accept that she killed herself) and being more interested in why Dylan didn't come and see her, after she murdered the drug guy, Norman is who she came to for help. That's when he hid her in the basement and helped her get her hair dye and other stuff to change her look and helped her leave town. So I don't think it is so unbelievable that a sad, desperate Bradley came to Norman for help. As for the begging to have sex, again I just think the girl is clearly broken. She essentially threw her life away, no one is looking for her because they all think she's dead and she's sad, scared and alone. And she probably still sees Norman is that sweet boy from Season 1 who was always just there for her, no questions asked. She doesn't know he's slowly gotten nuttier and nuttier. 

 

I have been wracking my brain - did we see Bradley leave safely or is there a possibility that Norman killed her a while ago off camera?

 

Yes we did because Dylan is the one who saw her off. Norman couldn't do it because that was when Norma had her big play audition and insisted Norman be there for her. So he called Dylan and told Dylan what Bradley was planning and asked him to help her. Norman did not kill Bradley, at least not then. No telling what's going to happen in the season finale. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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Timetoread

Timetoread

Thank you!!!  See here's the real problem with binge watching - things become a blur as you don't sit and digest each episode before moving on to the next.  For a lot I remember the basics and certain hot scenes but the specifics aren't always there.  For instance, I have NO memory of Norma snarking on Bradley in the first season, only her not being happy that Norman skipped out to a party with her, leaving her alone to be raped by that creepy former owner.

 

As for the realness of Bradley.  I like your arguments.  Bradley being imagined was starting to mess with my mind.  That said, I hope they brought the girl back for something more than being killed by Norman.

designing1

designing1

(edited)

 

I hope they brought the girl back for something more than being killed by Norman.

 

 

Bringing her back just to be killed is rather pointless.  I hope there is more to it than that.

 

Actually I think that's precisely why they brought her back. Everyone (except Dylan, who doesn't know she's back) already thinks she's dead so no one will be looking for her. As long as he disposes of the body (Pit? What pit?) she's the perfect way to show the audience the depths of Norman's madness...while still continuing the show for two more seasons.

 

 

Anyway just me or (sorry for the actress) but does anyone think Bradley is not exactly attractive with the dark hair? Talk about beauty being in the hair color. I doubt anyone would have given her a second look with the dark hair.

 

With the brown hair, she reminds me of Sarah Hyland. Hardly unworthy of a second look, and really, much better than the generic blonde, to me.

Edited by designing1
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Mabinogia

Mabinogia

I hope Bradley is only back to get killed. The way that girl talks drives me up a wall. It's like she's stoned all the time. I do think she's real and I do think Norman is going to kill her. Mother said he knew what had to be done (or something like that) last time she said that, Miss Watson got strangled. I didn't find it odd that Bradley's mom has already moved on since she didn't seem to come from a very loving family and Mom just struck me as a gold digger who happily did whatever her next rich husband wanted, and if that meant getting rid of evidence of her daughter, then by Bradley's room and hello home gym. (I could be misremembering her mom, did we ever see her mom? But based on B's loneliness back in S1 I assumed her family wasn't that close.)

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Avaleigh

Avaleigh

Bringing her back just to be killed is rather pointless.  I hope there is more to it than that.

I agree with designing1 that Bradley has been brought back because she's the perfect first motel victim. 

 

Everything about the scene with Norman and Bradley in that motel room was creepy and made me think of Janet Leigh's character talking with AP's Norman. The way he looks at Bradley in the bathroom mirror was totally unsettling. I kept wondering if she was going to turn on the shower lol. Also, the way Bradley is eating a sandwich that Norman likely made for her felt like another callback to the film. It's like we're seeing what will become his routine with his victims only this is the first time he's doing it. He'll probably always try to go for vulnerable, attractive women who are unlikely to be searched for. Making sure that Bradley's car is parked where nobody will see it--I'm already thinking about how he's going to start using that lake as a dumping ground. 

 

Norman kills Marion Crane because "mother" gets jealous of Marion. Based on the previews though Norma seems ready to let somebody else try to help Norman so is she really going to give Norman the vibe that she's jealous of this girl? I'm curious as to how this is going to get twisted around in Norman's head. If "mother" is jealous of Bradley then why wouldn't she be down for allowing Bradley to get out of town? 

 

Is it Monday yet? 

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Guest

Guest

That was cold how easily Bradley's mom moved on with the death of her daughter.

How long has it been?  I guess I'd be more likely to raise eyebrows at the remarrying than the home gym.  I'm not sure I'd want a shrine to my dead daughter around, no matter my grief level.  Though I think if I had no body I'd leave the bedroom.  

 

I did tell my teen daughter I watch with, "So if that ever happens to us, I'll buy you a new bedroom set, no problem.  Don't let me keep thinking you're dead, ok?   Because new furniture is not really a reason to not go home."  

 

I feel like no one would be after Bradley anyway.  The drug lords must've split when the pot biz dried up (lol).  

The main reason I know it isn't a blackout? 

 

Why would Norman imagine her to have dark hair? His visions of Norma are in a way an idealized version of her. (And in another way the visions show Norma's worst qualities.) I feel like he'd envision Bradley as he remembered her. 

Also, why would he hallucinate a car for them to drive around in, and knowing where her mom hides her house key?  

 

Couldn't it just be that Norman thinks that is how Bradley would look "on the run".  I also had that thought -- that Bradley was in his head.  I thought it was also odd the way that her mom totally got on with her life. That just didn't seem like a real person reaction (remember she also lost her husband) but rather what Norman might think in his head.

 

Anyway just me or (sorry for the actress) but does anyone think Bradley is not exactly attractive with the dark hair? Talk about beauty being in the hair color. I doubt anyone would have given her a second look with the dark hair.

I think Bradley looked nice with dark hair.  Didn't Norman dye it for her before she left?  So she stuck with dark brown?  I think Peltz would probably look good bald.

 

I think she's going to wind up in the pit now, possibly Caleb, too.  Not many red shirts left.  Bob.  Chick.  Gunner.  

 

I'm sure I'm the only one but I cringe almost as much at Norma/Romero intimacy scenes as Norma/Norman.  I just don't understand why hot, level-headed Romero would want to bother with total nutcase Norma and her circus train of baggage.  

 

And Norma's hair last night was in fine form.  I feel like they told the stylist, "Make her as unattractive as possible."  

 

I'm glad someone asked what Norman was carrying.  I was like, "What is that, Juno's leash?  Is he pretending to walk his pretend dog?"  I did think it was odd he put on both his button-up shirt and his pullover sweater, I guess even moreso if he carried his belt.  Maybe he just pulled them over his head together, and they went back on that way, though?  

queenanne

queenanne

(edited)

I feel like Bradley primarily came back to be a catalyst for the Norma/Norman conversation.  I also feel pretty sure she's real not because of any specific cues she got, but because of the specific cues they are now giving us for Head!Norma - specifically, the one where she disapparates on Norman quite clearly in mid-frame during their scenes, making crystal clear that Norman is talking to himself.  Now, if Bradley starts doing that...

 

That was great writing and acting both for Normero, with their intentions at clear cross-purposes.  Alex's is begging, "Somebody recognize and love me for being a Good Man, unlike my father."  But Norma, who would be a normal shoo-in for nurturing Alex, can't spare his heart-wringing any thoughts, because her brain cells are all taken up with saving (and nurturing) Norman.  That non-kissing was hotter than the kissing would have been.  Smart, smart, smart.

 

Are seasons so short because of Freddie's term time?

Edited by queenanne
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JenE4

JenE4

As for the hallucinations, IMO, I think the show makes it clear when it's just a figment of Norman's psychosis. They always pan out to show him catatonic and/or that he's talking to someone who isn't really there. (If it's not "always" I have no doubt someone will correct that statement.) Last week I wasn't sure whether Bradley was there because we only got one glimpse, so the dog could have transformed into her. But now IMO there's no reason to think that she's NOT there. They made a very clear distinction about him being lucid and with her--and then the psychosis was creeping in as Norma appeared. As soon as he realized it was happening, he ran out of the motel room. At that point he was deep in his psychosis with Norma, but it was in reaction to a very real trigger of sexual feelings for Bradley.

ganesh

ganesh

As for the hallucinations, IMO, I think the show makes it clear when it's just a figment of Norman's psychosis.

 

That's basically my argument for why I didn't think he killed Watson.

 

I thought Bradley might have been a figment, but I think the disappearance of the dog was meant to tip us off that Norman was back into reality. Clearly, in the subsequent episode it was established she's real.

Avaleigh

Avaleigh

That's basically my argument for why I didn't think he killed Watson.

 

I thought Bradley might have been a figment, but I think the disappearance of the dog was meant to tip us off that Norman was back into reality. Clearly, in the subsequent episode it was established she's real.

But then what's the reasoning behind not letting the audience know that he didn't kill Ms. Watson? And who did? Why leave it up in the air? How does this help Norman's story progress? Furthermore, if they're still just waiting on the reveal, how is this supposed to be revealed? At this point we would only be able to take Norman's word for it because there are no witnesses so is he just going to suddenly remember that he or that mother didn't kill her? 

 

I don't know, I feel like it makes more sense that Norman killed her. 

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editorgrrl

editorgrrl

I don't really care who did. I think the memory was a figment and didn't really happen precisely because everything else on the show is made clear when it's real or Norman psychoing out. They've been entirely consistent otherwise.

To me, Norman Bates is the most unreliable narrator ever. I don't trust anything told from his point of view. Norma lies to everyone else—Norman lies to himself.

Not only do I think Norman killed Miss Watson, I don't think Miss Watson hit on Norman. YMMV.

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JenE4

JenE4

It makes sense to me that Ms. Watson seduced Norman and he killed her after they had sex. That's at the core of his issues with this whole "not a nice girl" thing with everyone else while being sexually fixated on Norma. It's been building since then. Granted we've had other non-Norman murders on this show, but those are different storylines. As was mentioned, there serves no purpose in it NOT being Norman. That storyline is done. This show is about how he becomes Psycho, and Blair Watson was the next phase after killing his father. It was done as a mystery on purpose because it was the cliffhanger as one season finale and then was the season storyline for the next year. I was a huge Lost fan, so this is just Carlton Cuse's style. Maybe, just like on Lost, viewers were complaining about being confused and that's why this season has been a little more straight-forward. But, I think that's also the progression of Norman's psychosis. Last year Norma could rationalize that it wasn't that bad, and most of the season Norman has no idea he had a problem. Now it's escalated--and they're still not getting him help.

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Timetoread

Timetoread

It makes sense to me that Ms. Watson seduced Norman and he killed her after they had sex. That's at the core of his issues with this whole "not a nice girl" thing with everyone else while being sexually fixated on Norma. It's been building since then. Granted we've had other non-Norman murders on this show, but those are different storylines. As was mentioned, there serves no purpose in it NOT being Norman. That storyline is done. This show is about how he becomes Psycho, and Blair Watson was the next phase after killing his father. It was done as a mystery on purpose because it was the cliffhanger as one season finale and then was the season storyline for the next year. I was a huge Lost fan, so this is just Carlton Cuse's style. Maybe, just like on Lost, viewers were complaining about being confused and that's why this season has been a little more straight-forward. But, I think that's also the progression of Norman's psychosis. Last year Norma could rationalize that it wasn't that bad, and most of the season Norman has no idea he had a problem. Now it's escalated--and they're still not getting him help.

Well to be fair, they tried to get get him help, its just that Norman keeps trying to kill the help.

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Peanut6711

Peanut6711

What is with Romero trying to get a mother to turn on her own son? He knows Norman killed his father, why does he need Norma to say it to him. He must've had a horrible mother to think that forcing a mother to turn on her son is a good thing. I'm glad Norma didn't have sex with him. 

He just wanted Norma to finally stop lying to him and admit the truth. It wasn't about getting a confession to arrest Norman it was a gauge of Norma's honesty within the bounds of their supposed friendship. 

 

I am glad too though that they didn't sleep together. Their interactions in that scene felt contrived for me and at this point Norma has slept with just about every man she's encountered since she came to town. Bedding the sheriff would have felt cheap to me, not some final release of the sexual tensions that the producers have gone out of their way to produce. 

 

I feel like no one would be after Bradley anyway.  The drug lords must've split when the pot biz dried up (lol).  

Yes I thought this too. Nick Ford and the Morgans are all dead.   Bringing Bradley back seems pretty pointless to me so if she's not a figment of Norman's imagination then I hope she's only here to be his next victim, which might be fitting considering his growing "mother" sexual obsession and the fact that he lost his virginity to Bradley. 

 

I do have to say that I feel Norman's degression feels a little rushed. I feel like something more significant should have happened between last season and this one to see Norman so close to the point of where he is when the movie begins. 

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Guest

Guest

(edited)

Are seasons so short because of Freddie's term time?

 

What is Freddie's term time?  

To me, Norman Bates is the most unreliable narrator ever. I don't trust anything told from his point of view. Norma lies to everyone else—Norman lies to himself.

Not only do I think Norman killed Miss Watson, I don't think Miss Watson hit on Norman. YMMV.

Do you think Norman caught her in bed with the other dude and raped her?  I figure they put the multiple semens into the story to paint Blair as a loose slut (pardon the term), but I found it all a little confusing, too.  But given Norman's raging madonna/whore complex, I'm guessing she was madonna at school and whore in the bedroom, pushing him further toward the edge.  

 

Bradley's kind of got the 'sweet but fast' quality, too.  Did Cody?  She was never all that sweet, was she?  Emma's just sweet.  

Edited by Guest
truthaboutluv

truthaboutluv

(edited)
Do you think Norman caught her in bed with the other dude and raped her?  I figure they put the multiple semens into the story to paint Blair as a loose slut (pardon the term), but I found it all a little confusing, too.

 

 

So Norman found his way to Ms. Watson's house on his own, saw her having sex with someone, snapped and then killed her because she was having sex with someone? And none of this was shown or indicated with the show all but moved on from her murder? To me this is as convoluted as how I felt the idea that Bradley is not real right now is, suggesting that randomly Norman has imagined her (Bradley who he hasn't seen since the night he asked Dylan to drop her off a bus station and who he hasn't seemed to think about once), imagined the almost sex with her that triggered Mother who is also in his head.

 

In my opinion, Norman's sperm being found in Blair's body is further proof to me confirming exactly what he saw at the end of Season 2 - she came onto him, they had sex and he snapped during the act and killed her. While Norman is definitely delving deeper into madness this season, I feel like the writers are also making it very clear when things are real and not real especially because we know he's totally losing it now. Which is why I don't feel the need to question everything we've seen or been told. 

 

For example that last shot in this episode of Norman walking away, arm akimbo with no one next to him was I thought the writers making it absolutely clear without question that Mother exists solely in Norman's mind. Which sure we already knew, but they still made sure to make it absolutely clear. And similarly, when all the birds started flying around when he was working on the dead bird and then eventually we see Dylan and Emma talking to him, trying to snap him out of the trance so you know, it was all in his mind. Same with Milo - we saw Milo die from Season 1 so everytime Milo comes alive, you know Norman is hallucinating.

 

I just don't think the writers are creating this whole "what's real and what isn't real" world with this show. That's not what I get from it. Yes it is a psychological drama and yes Norman is crazy but they make his madness clear I think as in his imagining Mother who doesn't really exist. Everything else I view as circumstances and consequences of his madness rather than a question of it not existing at all. 

 

I do have to say that I feel Norman's degression feels a little rushed. I feel like something more significant should have happened between last season and this one to see Norman so close to the point of where he is when the movie begins.

 

 

I definitely see what you're saying and sort of agree. But I feel like that's the other reason I believe everything we saw of Ms. Watson's murder happened. In my opinion, that was just another instance of Norman snapping, like with his dad. But while he still didn't really remember killing his dad, he completely remembered killing Ms. Watson and that truth damn near broke him. I mean he was going to kill himself or was thinking about it when Norma chased him into the woods. And the only way he was able to survive that truth is to let Mother out more to take the blame and the burden from him. But Mother being more present means him slipping deeper into his psychosis.

 

And coupled with that is Norma pulling away from him however small because she's being faced more and more with the reality that their relationship is not normal for someone his age. And so that's causing him increased anxiety and stress, that's only exacerbating his issues and feelings. Then he feels like she's getting closer to Dylan while he feels like she's pulling away from him. Then the Anika thing happens that has him further questioning himself because at this point he knows something is not quite right with him and it's all boiling over into this perfect storm of madness. 

Edited by truthaboutluv
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editorgrrl

editorgrrl

So Norman found his way to Ms. Watson's house on his own, saw her having sex with someone, snapped and then killed her because she was having sex with someone? And none of this was shown or indicated with the show all but moved on from her murder?

To me this is as convoluted as how I felt the idea that Bradley is not real right now is, suggesting that someone Norman has imagined her, imagined the almost sex with her that triggered Mother who is also in his head.

I think Miss Watson gave Norman a ride in the rain. When she went to change, Norman peeped her—just as he later did with Annika. (And as he does in Psycho.) Mother got angry and "told" him to kill the slut. Again, YMMV.

As for multiple semen samples, maybe Miss Watson had sex within the last 24 hours. Maybe the evidence was contaminated. IDK. Also, Norman's semen =/= consensual sex.

I have yet to see any proof that Bradley is alive, so I suspect she's a hallucination. I've seen multiple posts that the presence of the dog &/or Mother "proves" Bradley is real. I disagree. But I hope the show will answer the question one way or the other.

Guest

Guest

So Norman found his way to Ms. Watson's house on his own, saw her having sex with someone, snapped and then killed her because she was having sex with someone? And none of this was shown or indicated with the show all but moved on from her murder? 

No, I don't think that at all, but that's probably apparent from the rest of my post.  I was asking the poster I quoted how she thought Norman's semen got there.  What was confusing to me was the other guys', but they probably explained that.  

ganesh

ganesh

I think it was just too early in the show's run for me for Norman to have killed Watson with/as the Mother persona. At the time, Mother was sporadic and intermittent. I think TPTBs were simply playing it both way in case the show didn't have a second season. Then they built in the 'memory' later on. If he actually killed her, it's nbd to me. I'm not going to call OOC. What we've actually seen was a memory when Norman was buried in a box underground. I find the reliability questionable. 

 

Assuming Bradley is real, and I think she is, we're all fairly in agreement that she's probably the 'template' and Norman's going to kill her. It makes more sense now that this would happen given Norman's behavior over this season. Now, Mother has a strong hold on Norman, and the first killing seems to be on the horizon.

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raven

raven

(edited)

 

Agreed--it's really hard to root against Norman when we've so clearly been shown his mental issues. That Norma enables/exacerbates them just makes me sympathize more.

ITA, and Freddie Highmore is doing a fantastic job of showing Norman's lack of poker face; everything plays out in his expressions.  The scene with Norma when she yells at him about how hard it is to be his mother - his own anger slips for just a second and he looks heartbroken.  S1 did such a good job of establishing him as a somewhat odd but sweet kid; I'm always thinking of what might have been.  We'll never know how he would have turned out if he had gotten help after killing his father, which he still doesn't remember (and I do think he did it).  He was a good friend to Bradley; just the brief shot when they touch hands in the car shows him to be a caring person; that reaching out to comfort.  The interesting thing is that caring, giving part comes from Norma.  She has the ability to be quite generous but can snatch back her generosity in a second due to her own issues.  

 

Apologies if I jumble some eps together - I binge watched the last 4 yesterday.  Another thing that struck me is how really self-centered both Norma and Caleb are.  When James asks Norma why she didn't get Norman help after killing his father she replies "They would have taken him away from me"; a statement wholly about herself.   Her first thought was that she couldn't be without him; not what was best for him.  Same with Caleb; if he could look beyond his own immediate needs, he would respect that Norma wanted nothing to do with him.

 

 

I'm not saying that Romero isn't being pissy about the fact that Norma keeps lying to him about how her husband died but I actually think his turning the drive over to the DEA is the smart thing.

Norma does amazingly well at screwing up her own life.  Why continue to lie to Romero about this?  There's nothing to arrest anyone about IMO; sure she's under no obligation to tell him the truth, but by not doing so she's potentially lost a real friend and ally.  He sat right next to her (hilariously, I might add) while she pulled the whole blackmail scheme with Bob Parris!  She told James the truth because she was feeling vulnerable and needy; I suppose in some way she recognizes that Alex is more important to her life than James and possibly sharing the truth of what happened with Alex would bring about a change in their relationship that she's not ready for; a deeper level of trust I guess; whereas with James she can just wave it away and not see him again.

 

I don't think they're ready for a kiss and am glad that didn't happen.  I have a feeling that the next couple of seasons, if they build on their relationship they (Alex and Norma) both may become less nutty but Norman we know becomes worse off; if Norma becomes strong enough to try to fix the unhealthy part of her relationship with Norman, Norman will be too far gone to allow it.

 

I can't help but feel sad when I see that cute dog playing Juno!  Because cute but also another missed opportunity for a normal relationship for Norman.  When he ends up sitting in the rocking chair all day and talks to Juno, creepy yet sad. 

Edited by raven
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ganesh

ganesh

Season 1 was hugely important in establishing Norman as a classical tragic character. When he first met the other students at the bus stop, they were all friendly. Norman was a little weird but it was because he was the new kid. No one bullied him, he got invited to parties, he was even going to play a sport. Then you get to here. 


Season 1 was hugely important in establishing Norman as a classical tragic character. When he first met the other students at the bus stop, they were all friendly. Norman was a little weird but it was because he was the new kid. No one bullied him, he got invited to parties, he was even going to play a sport. Then you get to here. 

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Solzhenknitsyn

Solzhenknitsyn

Checking super late to say once again that it's the tiny details that make me love this show. When Alex breaks into Norma's house/motel rooms, there's no sign of forced entry. He slips in like a mutha-effin' ghost, y'all, like walls ain't shit to him. When Norma breaks into Alex's house? Broken glass everywhere. Norma's got no finesse. :)

 

Count me in, though, as one of the few who didn't find their almost-kiss hot. (1) Because it was preceded by Norma slapping the shit out of Alex; and (2) because Norma looked so defeated. Don't get me wrong, the actors' chemistry was amazing. And Norma strikes out physically when she's overwhelmed with anger and a sense of powerlessness, so (unfortunately) her hitting Alex felt true to her character. But...blegh. #partnerviolenceisn'tcool #lovesexnothatesex

 

Also, I agree with the point upthread about Norma -- hypocritically -- not liking over-emotionalism in her men. I half-expected her to cut off Romero's big speech with, "Quit whining, Alex. It's not masculine and it's not attractive."

 

And yeah. Into the pit with Bradley! I don't care how hot some viewers may find her, her "Like, duh" line delivery kills every scene she's in. And I thought it was strange that the season's penultimate episode would spend so much time on a character whose story line ended almost two seasons ago. My guess is that she is the next victim, but still. Her scenes really made this episode drag.

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Timetoread

Timetoread

(edited)
Why continue to lie to Romero about this?  There's nothing to arrest anyone about IMO; sure she's under no obligation to tell him the truth, but by not doing so she's potentially lost a real friend and ally.

 

I don't think it's that deep with Romero though.  He comes off to me as quite immature in this whole thing - which is cute because I don't think this is a man who is often in love and when it hits him, it disrupts his equilibrium.  In this situation it cannot be expected that the mother of a kid who committed a murder, which she subsequently covered for, is going to tell the COP, who all of a sudden is insisting, the truth about it.  The last time Romero insisted re Norman, he carted him in for a lie detector with a possibility of jail.  But I don't think her not telling him the truth per se is what he's mad about - he isn't exactly Joe LetsShare himself.  It is that his buddy called him out on his puppy love, told him about another man she'd had sex with, and then set the bar that she wouldn't confide in HIM, hence "She's just not that into you, dude."  THAT'S what is eating Alex.  As for losing him as an ally?  That's about as likely, as Norma pointed out, as him shooting her.  She owns him, she knows it and HE knows it.  Note that SHE was the one to disengage the near-kiss.  Mad as he was, he would have had her right there in his unfinished living room.

 

She told James the truth because she was feeling vulnerable and needy

Don't forget to add: drunk, betrayed by her boys and traumatized to have to confront her rapist AND he had to swear professional secrecy before she finally let it out.

Edited by Timetoread
  • Love 2
Aquarius

Aquarius

(edited)
Count me in, though, as one of the few who didn't find their almost-kiss hot. (1) Because it was preceded by Norma slapping the shit out of Alex; and (2) because Norma looked so defeated. Don't get me wrong, the actors' chemistry was amazing. And Norma strikes out physically when she's overwhelmed with anger and a sense of powerlessness, so (unfortunately) her hitting Alex felt true to her character. But...blegh. #partnerviolenceisn'tcool #lovesexnothatesex

 

 

This x1000.  I was so happy they didn't go there.  It was all too violent and angry for my taste.  Especially given all Norma's been through sexually.

 

My UO:  I don't like Romero.  This is mostly due to my dislike of the "lawman who breaks the law cuz it's just the right thing to do" character.  It's a trope that sends me up the wall.  But I also find him to be a disgustingly violent and disturbingly cold man.  Just not my thing.  However, I have to say that I felt for him when he was practically begging Norma to trust him, without begging Norma to trust him.  Nicely acted. 

 

Reason for edit:  Because "Norma" is certainly not "Normal."  LOL!

Edited by Aquarius
  • Love 2
Timetoread

Timetoread

(edited)

This x1000.  I was so happy they didn't go there.  It was all too violent and angry for my taste.  Especially given all Norma's been through sexually.

 

My UO:  I don't like Romero.  This is mostly due to my dislike of the "lawman who breaks the law cuz it's just the right thing to do" character.  It's a trope that sends me up the wall.  But I also find him to be a disgustingly violent and disturbingly cold man.  Just not my thing.  However, I have to say that I felt for him when he was practically begging Norma to trust him, without begging Norma to trust him.  Nicely acted. 

 

Reason for edit:  Because "Norma" is certainly not "Normal."  LOL!

 

I agree with you 100%  about all of it....except for some reason I do like Alex.  Maybe it is just in the context of this town and this show, because really he is not much more than a Mafioso thug who kills without hesitation and without feeling.  His killing the rival sherrif made me scared of him - and not in a good way.  Maybe because even that seems lesser than the PSYCHO™ who is at the center of this tale.  But sadly, and it is the flaw within me, I just want to see Norma with a man who loves her for real and even more sadly, nay disturbingly, I believe Romero is that guy and that he will hurt everything around her but he will never hurt her. 

Edited by Timetoread
  • Love 3
Aquarius

Aquarius

I agree with you 100%  about all of it....except for some reason I do like Alex.  Maybe it is just in the context of this town and this show, because really he is not much more than a Mafioso thug who kills without hesitation and without feeling.  His killing the rival sherrif made me scared of him - and not in a good way.  Maybe because even that seems lesser than the PSYCHO™ who is at the center of this tale.  But sadly, and it is the flaw within me, I just want to see Norma with a man who loves her for real and even more sadly, nay disturbingly, I believe Romero is that guy and that he will hurt everything around her but he will never hurt her. 

 

He is a thug who kills without hesitation and without feeling.  He also immediately turns to violence when it suits him.  And even though we all know who Norman is and, worse, what he is becoming, at least there is emotion and conflict and illness involved there.  It makes Romero seems more like a "killer" to me.  I don't care if he is doing it for the good of his town or whatever.  Most killers have a reason.

 

As for him loving Norma for real . . . well, I think he's fascinated by her and her "chaos" but there is an undertone of wanting to save her all the time that I just don't trust.  He just seems like another facet of wrong that Norma and her issues seem to attract.

  • Love 1
Timetoread

Timetoread

(edited)

He is a thug who kills without hesitation and without feeling.  He also immediately turns to violence when it suits him.  And even though we all know who Norman is and, worse, what he is becoming, at least there is emotion and conflict and illness involved there.  It makes Romero seems more like a "killer" to me.  I don't care if he is doing it for the good of his town or whatever.  Most killers have a reason.

 

As for him loving Norma for real . . . well, I think he's fascinated by her and her "chaos" but there is an undertone of wanting to save her all the time that I just don't trust.  He just seems like another facet of wrong that Norma and her issues seem to attract.

 

Fair enough!  Though I don't think it's the chaos that attracts him, he seems bewildered and annoyed by just how much of it there is.  He seems to be pulled in by her zanier moments - the crazy lady who yells at all the police secretaries and bursts into his office; or her nurturing moments - how she cares for her sons and does his laundry and stitches up his wounds (this season has shown a lot of him reaching out to her when he is upset and needs some care); or how she is simply too crazy and distracted to notice how scary HE is.  Also, I think there is an element of pathos for her too - the chaos that surrounds her is serious stuff: the deputy who died in a gunfight at her house and then whose torso ended up in her bed from the other bad man who threatened to kill her, the drama she got from Dylan's "job", another bad man kidnapping Norman and putting him in a box, but mostly - no matter what she will admit to, it is clear that Norman isn't normal and that she loves him fiercely and is protecting him.  I think he responds to that because Romero is a motherless boy inside and is still hurting from the loss of his mother.  I say all this because while he doesn't actually DESERVE the benefit of the doubt, my hunch right now is that his feelings for Norma are coming from a good place - however small that place may be. 

Edited by Timetoread
  • Love 4
seashell

seashell

I think some of you might be missing the joke that drives this show. (This show is most definitely not a serious drama.)

 

And that joke is that psycho Norman is surrounded by family and friends who, with the notable exception of Emma, are killing people left and right. I've lost count of the actual number of corpses but my guess is that sweet Dylan may have offed the most people since the series started. I could be wrong about that though.

 

But with one obvious exception, none of these killers are bad people. These folks are the show's good guys. And they're good guys because everyone they've killed is not just bad but really, really bad. As in EVIL.

 

The exception is psycho Norman's killing of Blair Watson. Though perhaps not the most innocent of teachers, she probably can be considered a basically "good" person and therefore Norman's killing of her would be counted as a "bad" thing. Which explains why Romero was bothered by it and had to know if Norman was lying or telling the truth.

  • Love 3
rue721

rue721

I hear you but even those odd details are - well odd.  Like for instance the ONE picture of Bradley.  The explanation could be that her mother is completely over the death of her only child and has tossed everything away OR it could be that Norman has only seen ONE picture of Bradley so that is the one he "places" in her house.  Also the way the house has "changed" because Norman didn't have enough of a memory of the real house to recreate it in his mind.  That she eats and stuff isn't that far off from a dead/stuffed dog being alive and running down the road.  This incarnation of Bradley is so Norman focused it is almost unreal.  Everyone, including her own mother has forgotten her, she appears to Norman in the middle of the night.  She needs Norman to take her places (in the town where she was born and raised).  She needs Norman to talk to her mother.  She needs Norman to give her a place to sleep.   She apologizes for the very thing that hurt Norman the most.  She begs his forgiveness, she begs him to have sex with her.  This is on the heels of Norman's realization that things are crumbling down around him and he feels like he is losing his Mother.  As Dylan said, his last blackout lasted all night.  This may very well be another one.  I have been wracking my brain - did we see Bradley leave safely or is there a possibility that Norman killed her a while ago off camera?

 

I agree that, while it makes sense that Bradley is real and I *want* to believe that Bradley is real, all the scenes with Bradley were very "off" somehow and I just can't quite buy it.

 

In this episode, her personality and how she thought were so different than they used to be -- and not in a way that I would expect for someone who'd been through hell as a runaway. She was always kind of impulsive, reckless, and thoughtless, but now she's so passive and wants Norman to act as her intermediary. And, like people said above, it would have made more logical sense for her to have gone to Dylan than Norman anyway, since she needed money and needed to figure out what was going on with the drug business (since she'd had to disappear after she'd killed the head honcho of a drug family), and he'd be the one who'd be able to help her with that stuff. Also, her logistical situation just doesn't make sense to me. Why was she just standing in the middle of the road with her car on? If Norman hadn't come running up chasing his imaginary dog, would she have just stood there all night? (LOL). She's been struggling financially so much she could barely eat and has been in a "living hell," but she has the money and paperwork/ID to buy a car (doesn't take the bus or even hitchhike?), and when she gets into town and sees her mother's lavish house, she doesn't even think of stealing ANYTHING? She's bitter about Dylan and Norman "letting" her run away, but she's not bitter at her mother for being so inaccessible that she doesn't think she can go to her even just for a roof and some sandwiches now (she goes to NORMAN instead)? Idk, it just didn't seem like how a human being would react, or how Bradley in particular would react. The thing about her wanting to sleep with Norman kind of threw me, too, because really, if she's been broke and alone, her body has been the only "valuable" thing about her, and something that I would imagine that people have been trying to exploit the whole time she's been "dead" -- yet after this dorky guy gives her a sandwich, she's ripping his clothes off? Uh, Idk, it COULD happen, she COULD just happen to "get in the mood" from this kid giving her a sandwich and stuff, but to me, that seems much more likely to happen in a porn-y, dude fantasy than in reality. (Which I felt the show kind of hung a lantern on when it had Norma reject Romero). Bradley altogether seemed less like herself and more like how self-absorbed Norman would imagine she'd be.

 

I kept waiting for Bradley and Norman to interact with *anyone* else, for someone besides Norman to acknowledge Bradley as real. But nobody did.

 

I didn't think that the trip to Bradley's house made the idea that this is all a delusion on Norman's part impossible. The house doesn't need to have been completely fabricated in Norman's mind, he could have broken in to some house (possibly Bradley's old house, possibly not) while in a fugue. When he went into a fugue after Norma left for her night of drinking, car-selling, and secret-telling, he started getting really active all while in a delusion, which was a new thing for him. He was able to make breakfast and have conversations while blacked out and deluded. I don't think it's a huge stretch that he could have wondered through someone's house imagining having conversations with Bradley, etc, while in a fugue now, either. YMMV.

 

The house itself seemed "off" to me. Aside from it being odd that Bradley's mother was already remarried, and that Bradley was satisfied just seeing her from afar, and Bradley didn't recognize the house or feel at home there, and that Bradley's mother had gotten rid of ALL Bradley's stuff and set up a very well-equipped home gym in Bradley's old room (so where IS Bradley's stuff, in a storage locker? It's only been a matter of months since Bradley "died," hasn't it?), I also found it the house strange in that the living room was set up so similarly to the Bates's. EVERY home doesn't have a sofa table covered in framed family photos, lol. But I know that the Bates have that in their living room, because I remember when Dylan first came to town and was looking at the photos of Norma and Norman on the Bates's sofa-table-covered-in-framed-family-photos (that didn't include Dylan, LOL). And Caleb did the same thing when he was in the living room in The Last Supper. Again, it just seemed like the kind of thing that Norman would take for granted -- there are family photos displayed in THIS spot in the living room, that's just how homes are DUH -- because that's how *he's* grown up and always lived, but that isn't actually "normal" in general or something that everyone takes for granted as a matter of course.

 

Anyway, it's not that I categorically don't believe that Bradley's real, but *something* was very eerie and off about her and those scenes imo.

 

I think some of you might be missing the joke that drives this show. (This show is most definitely not a serious drama.)

 

And that joke is that psycho Norman is surrounded by family and friends who, with the notable exception of Emma, are killing people left and right. I've lost count of the actual number of corpses but my guess is that sweet Dylan may have offed the most people since the series started. I could be wrong about that though.

 

I don't agree that the show is driven by a joke or is supposed to be a joke. I think it actually is a drama, just one with a strong streak of black comedy in it. Imo the farce and absurdity that runs through the show doesn't make it ridiculous, though -- if anything, imo it often ends up making it feel bleaker. And imo it's completely appropriate that a show about this subject matter would be chock full of gallows humor anyway!

 

But I do think that Dylan and Norma have been softened up way too much at this point, and I'm getting a little sick of them. Heresy, I know. But I actually preferred when Dylan was slightly batshit and running down people in fits of rage and had Norma in his phone as The Whore and was giving everyone significant/weirded-out looks over Emma dragging her oxygen tank up the front stairs, etc. He was more of an asshole, but I felt like he actually made more sense as a character. Same thing with Norma. She was maddening, how she would blame either/each of her sons for stuff *completely* out of their control and that they wouldn't have ever been able to stop, like her getting arrested, but then at the same time she was telling Norman the sweetest, most loving things, and be affectionate and open about how much he meant to her. She was more difficult to watch or warm up to back then than she is now, but she also seemed more recognizably human imo.

 

In this episode, Dylemma kind of tipped over into "UGH TOO MUCH" territory for me. It's just too sickeningly sweet.

  • Love 3
Avaleigh

Avaleigh

I don't agree that the show is driven by a joke or is supposed to be a joke. I think it actually is a drama, just one with a strong streak of black comedy in it. Imo the farce and absurdity that runs through the show doesn't make it ridiculous, though -- if anything, imo it often ends up making it feel bleaker. And imo it's completely appropriate that a show about this subject matter would be chock full of gallows humor anyway!

I agree with all of this. 

 

Interesting, I didn't remember Dylan having Norma labeled as the whore in his phone.

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

So very late to this party, just dropped in to say: count me in as someone who was sure Bradley wasn't real until I wasn't. When exactly you ask? I don't really know when I decided, but by the end of the episode I was convinced she was actually real. And now I'm a little sad because I do love a good mind fuckery show and sometimes prefer to not be so sure of these things.

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