crystalwearer April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 I'm wondering just what the hell Lily was doing for all those years looking for Emma. There was a card for a private investigator next to Emma's picture, but it doesn't seem like it would be all that hard to find Emma Swan. Ten year old Henry found her no problem. And then in the missing year, Emma was established in NYC with no attempt to disguise her identity. Why wouldn't Lily have been keeping an eye on Emma? Shouldn't there at least be an updated picture? If you want to find a way into Storybrooke, clearly Emma was the key. Lily and her investigator suck at finding people apparently. Actually, I think I know this one. Lily wanted to find Snow White and David ever since she met the Apprentice, but the curse kept her from ever entering Storybrook (or even locating it - her map had 2 circles indicating possible locations). So she kept tabs on Emma up until S1, hoping to be led to her real targets. Problem was, once Emma entered Storybrook, she disappeared off Lily's radar. Even when the curse dropped, Lily didn't have a way to pick up the trail because Emma didn't leave Storybrook until the end of 3A - when Regina's spell wiped all trace and memory of Storybrook (and its residents) from existence. Lily didn't bother looking Emma up in NYC because she didn't remember why she wanted to find Emma until Emma went *back* to Storybrook (which Lily can't find). Lily didn't seem like she had the resources to keep an investigator on retainer for years and, regardless, probably realized she just wasn't getting anywhere. Of course, if she'd just reconnected with Emma during Emma's bounty hunter years, they'd probably be close enough friends for Emma to have invited her to Storybrook during one of those windows when entry was possible. Another of Lily's bad decisions. Link to comment
Camera One April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 (edited) Wonder what happened in Storybrooke while Regina and Emma were on their road trip? HENRY: I don't have a life purpose anymore now that the Author has been found. SNOW AND CHARMING: You want to help us to build a temple of forgiveness? It might look good across from the clocktower. How about a moat of tears? RED: Where were you guys? Granny and I were waiting outside with torches to find The Author. We don't need to get him back from Gold anymore? HOOK: Haven't you heard? The plot is at a standstill while Regina and The Savior are off on their adventures. AUGUST: Did someone wake my father up, or is he still passed out in our garage? GRUMPY: Pending psycho arrival in town! Pending psycho arrival in town! BLUE: Wake me up when I'm in mortal danger again. It's getting close to that time of the year. Edited April 28, 2015 by Camera One 8 Link to comment
jhlipton April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 And I say: hey, at least it isn't Regina. At least lying and stealing are the worst Lily has done. I didn't watch and I probably won't watch next week. Lily is dark, or makes bad choices or whatever, and this the consequence? Making bad choices gets addicted, gets you so stealing is not easy, and working is out of the question (except in "the oldest profession"). Her life has actually been a breeze compared with some who had bad choices made for them. TS, TW Link to comment
Dani-Ellie April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 (edited) I'm starting to think that the only way to reconcile this hot mess is to take nothing as absolute. There are multiple powerful forces manipulating people's lives but none of them are supremely and unrelentingly powerful at complete exclusion of all the others. So its a big smelly soup of nature vs. nurture. There are schools of philosophy that do have fate/destiny/what have you and free will co-existing (typically the ones that wanted to keep the Christian God in the picture while still allowing for humanity to make their own choices). It's a balancing act, where people make their own choices but some of the big events are going to happen in one way or another. They actually addressed this when Emma was upset about Lily not even being her friend by choice and Regina saying, "You think it was a coincidence that I just so happened to adopt the savior's son?" Sometimes the universe intervenes to set certain things in motion but that doesn't mean everything is predetermined, nor does it mean that there is no free will. People may not like it and yes, it does open up questions of where free will ends and fate begins but it's not like the writers are pulling this stuff out of their asses. Edited April 28, 2015 by Dani-Ellie 1 Link to comment
YaddaYadda April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 She didn't even mention the Author, so maybe the Apprentice didn't tell the whole story. We know for sure she knew about the Author, his name was on her Murder Board. Shouldn't she wanna kill him though? Sure, whatever Snowing wanted to do is on them, but the moment the Apprentice changed his tune about how they could do it, he was no longer in control of his actions and Lily was banished to the LwM because of the Author and Snowing were horrified when they saw the portal appear because they told Maleficent they would bring the baby back. Yes, they shouldn't have taken it in the first place. The Author is the one she should be after for taking things as far as he did and a big part of the blame should be heaped on him. Do Snowing even know the role of the Author in this at all? Link to comment
Curio April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 (edited) There are schools of philosophy that do have fate/destiny/what have you and free will co-existing (typically the ones that wanted to keep the Christian God in the picture while still allowing for humanity to make their own choices). It's a balancing act, where people make their own choices but some of the big events are going to happen in one way or another. I do think that's what the show is attempting to go for, but like most things on this show, they completely butcher the execution. The issue is that there are so many different plot lines going on at the same time, and many of them seem to contradict each other, so the overall message gets muddled. Emma has the greatest potential for darkness, even though her parents went through a ritual to prevent that from happening, but apparently the ritual was useless because Emma has shown that she's more of a grey character, and the child that took on Emma's darkness seems to have grown up exactly the same way as Emma, and the author meddled with the whole egg baby situation, but apparently he only forced The Apprentice to send the baby away - Snow and Charming still had their free will, and Regina is looking for an author to change her happy ending and that's considered a good thing, but when the villains want to do the exact same thing it's considered a bad thing, and everyone is telling Emma to resist the darkness and take fate into her own hands, but then in the same breath we're still trying to force the author to give Regina a happy ending by putting her fate into someone else's hands, and apparently Emma protecting her son is a step towards darkness, and Lily and Emma's fates were always intwined, and Rumple's heart is turning completely black from all the evil he has done so he needs to transfer that all to Emma somehow, and in order for that to happen he needs Emma to turn dark for some reason that still hasn't been explained to the audience, and he has to do this because villains can't get happy endings, except if your name is Ursula and Hook, but no one stops to think about why Ursula was able to achieve her happy ending, and now everyone needs to find the author before he writes something bad, but we still don't even know what he's controlled in the past so we don't know which characters had free will and which ones didn't, and apparently it's Emma's job to fix her parent's mistake from decades ago, and that's not even including this messed up Zelena situation they pulled out of their asses... Like holy shit! That's way too much confusion going on right now. Edited April 28, 2015 by Curio 3 Link to comment
RandomWatcher April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 And Once's complicated family tree has gotten a bit bigger because now Henry's adopted mom's sister is pregnant with his cousin? Link to comment
DeLurker April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 Oh dear! How would they classify the FauxMarian offspring to Roland? They have the same father, but not the same mother but a magical replicant mother...a 3/4 sibling? Link to comment
KingOfHearts April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 Oh dear! How would they classify the FauxMarian offspring to Roland? They have the same father, but not the same mother but a magical replicant mother...a 3/4 sibling? Forget that - how are they going to explain FauxMarian at all? "Oh by the way your mother's dead and was replaced by Regina's sister. Sorry, we were ding-dongs and thought she was dead!" 4 Link to comment
DeLurker April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 (edited) Roland's going need an extra scoop ice cream sundae for that news....oh, but no more Ingrid so probably no more ice cream shop either. Poor poor Roland. Being a kid in a fairy tale isn't all that easy what with all the being flushed pre-natally into the Land without Magic, being sent away in a armoir to the Land without Magic, being abandoned by your Da, dead moms galore, ... Edited April 28, 2015 by DeLurker Link to comment
Shanna Marie April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 Lily is dark, or makes bad choices or whatever, and this the consequence? Making bad choices gets addicted, gets you so stealing is not easy, and working is out of the question (except in "the oldest profession"). Her life has actually been a breeze compared with some who had bad choices made for them. I think the problem with all this is that they've been very hazy and inconsistent about defining the terms that are critical to this story line. They're all over the map with what they mean by "darkness," as well as "heroes," "villains" and "happy ending," and what the rules are about who gets what. What they show with Lily seems to be more along the lines of "bad fortune" or "poor decision making" than "darkness." She makes bad choices, and everything she touches crumbles, but she's nothing like the other characters on this show who are considered "dark." She's more like Neal or August, who weren't dark but who seemed to screw up everything they touched, than like Rumple, Regina or Cora. It seems as though in the fairy tale world and in our world, there can be some material success with darkness because a dark person is pure selfishness who doesn't have any qualms about stepping all over people to get what they want. There may eventually be a spectacular defeat and downfall (because villains don't get happy endings), but we haven't been shown truly dark people who didn't have at least a time of being on top of the world. They live in castles, have power, and get to carry out their whims. You wouldn't see a dark person -- as depicted on this show -- living in a crappy apartment or trailer park and working in a nowhere diner. Lily's life might come closer to the way Regina talks about villains not getting happy endings, with fate always conspiring to take any chance at happiness away, but it's not what has been depicted as actually happening to villains. I mentioned this on the All Seasons thread, but if we're going by what the show has depicted as the life of a dark person, we should have seen Lily growing up as a master manipulator who always got what she wanted because she made sure of it. She'd be the school bully who managed to look innocent so that her victims got punished. She'd have turned her parents against each other and then benefited from their fighting over her. She'd have ended up as the kind of Wall Street player who benefits from destroying small companies or depleting pension funds, or else she'd be running a TV series in Hollywood, or would be in government, making a fortune on bribes and kickbacks while supporting projects that destroy the environment. Then there would have been a lot more contrast to Emma's life rather than their lives having been remarkably similar. Emma is more focused on others and is willing to suffer herself rather than let someone else suffer. Someone who's dark wouldn't care about the suffering of others, as long as she got what she wanted. This outcome of what should have been a really epic spell is kind of weak and blah, since both girls ended up having remarkably similar lives, with the only difference being that Emma is generally decent (with some gray areas and with a bad attitude that she's still working to get over) and Lily is bitter and blaming circumstances for the way her life turned out. 6 Link to comment
DeLurker April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 That's a much better storyline than they've shown. It may be time to bail on the show and just read the fanfiction. 2 Link to comment
Law Mom April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 Everything on this show is a metaphor, so Emma's descent into darkness, manifested pretty much like a bad case of PMS, represents...umm...menstruation? Fertility? Advil to relieve your symptoms? There is even a moon necklace. Moon necklace, people! Will walking around all season with nothing to do ever represents free will, of course. No one names their kid Lilith unless they know she is a she-demon. Maybe she can change her name to Eve or something. And the wolf means that "Winter is coming." 2 Link to comment
Shanna Marie April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 How did Lily have a necklace from her birth mother when she was in an egg when she was taken from Maleficent and the egg didn't hatch until a split second before she was sent into our world? Or was the necklace maybe something Ursula left with her when she and Cruella abandoned her? I can't imagine Cruella having even the tiniest scrap of conscience to do that, but Ursula might have. I'm also wondering how Lily (and Ursula and Cruella) avoided the curse reversal. When it happened, they made it sound like everyone born or even conceived in another world, other than Emma, whose DNA was woven into the curse, was going to be sent from our world back to their home worlds. That was how they made sure it was all extra-tragic, since Hook would be separated from Emma and Neal would be separated from Henry, even though neither of them were affected by the curse because they came over a different way. If Lily wasn't sent back because she wasn't in Storybrooke, then why couldn't Neal and Hook have left Storybrooke and stayed in this world? They might not have been able to stay with Emma and Henry because of them apparently needing to forget Storybrooke, but the two guys could have jumped on the Jolly Roger and sailed out of Storybrooke waters, and then Emma would still remember Neal as her son's father even if she didn't remember running into him later. She'd have had to start from scratch with Hook, but that might even have worked in his advantage if it meant he got a clean slate and got to be just this guy she met in New York. The inconsistency is annoying. And it would have been interesting if truly dark Lily the business/political power broker who gleefully paved over wetlands in exchange for kickbacks suddenly found herself in the Enchanted Forest with no clue what was going on, and that was how she ended up learning about her history and what happened to her. And then she found herself back in Storybrooke with the curse reversal. 2 Link to comment
RadioGirl27 April 28, 2015 Share April 28, 2015 (edited) I'm not trying to make sense of this season anymore. Everything is a retcon of a previous retcon (all this Lily storyline is a good example) and each new episode contradicts what was said in the previous one (Emma and her darkness potential). Right now, I'm just waiting for the finale and crossing my fingers that next season would be better (I'm crazy, I know). Edited April 28, 2015 by RadioGirl27 1 Link to comment
Camera One April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 The only aspect of Lily that seemed remotely dark was that obsessive wall chart she had, and her scheme to go to seek revenge. Though even that was dumb. There's no way she could have known about the Snow Queen's scroll, unless she thought Emma's car had the magic to go back home. Link to comment
Delphi April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 I don't think she really had a plan at all. She seems kinda not all there. I didn't hate the episode, by the way, that might be the highest praise I can offer right now. I waited until today to watch it so its definitely not must see for me right now. But I didn't hate it. I hated the end. I actually liked Regina in this. I really wish we were spending more time with Belle. That girl has had it so rough and I wanna know what's up with her. In my head canon, Belle has been hanging out with Ruby non-stop because she needs a friend to get through this, but that's sadly not true. I actually miss season two. 2 Link to comment
KAOS Agent April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 (edited) I thought it was ridiculous that Lily knew that Emma had magic. Not even Rumpel knew about that and yet, the Apprentice apparently told Lily all about super special magical Emma, which really makes no sense because Emma had nothing to do with Lily and the things she needed to know to better understand her circumstances. Really, the Apprentice needs a serious ass kicking at this point. Edited April 29, 2015 by KAOS Agent 1 Link to comment
AudienceofOne April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 That was unwatchable. MAGICIAN's APPRENTICE: ZOMG, the Author is out of control. Did you see what he made me do? MAGICIAN: THAT IS TERRIBLE. Did you solve the problem? MAGICIAN's APPRENTICE: Yep. Sorted. I sent the baby away and trapped the Author. But what does it mean for the Saviour? MAGICIAN: It means she and Lily are bound. AS THEY ALWAYS WERE. MAGICIAN's APPRENTICE: So... nothing's changed? Doesn't this mean that none of this actually matters? MAGICIAN: Yes. Because of FATE everything that is FATED will happen. MAGICIAN's APPRENTICE: So why are we having this conversation? MAGICIAN: I get to be swirly and boomy. 4 Link to comment
KingOfHearts April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 (edited) Would the writers care to explain why Lily and Emma had intertwined fates even before the spell was cast...? Edited April 29, 2015 by KingOfHearts 1 Link to comment
Camera One April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 Maybe they will reveal this in the next few episodes? Worse case scenario is that they're connected because Emma and Lily are sisters since Maleficent seduced Charming in revenge, but he doesn't know. Link to comment
Zuleikha April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 Have I never shared my theory that Maleficent was impregnated by the True Love potion egg Charming implanted in her? Because the whole Lily/Emma always bound by fate thing totally supports that. Link to comment
Serena April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 Maybe they will reveal this in the next few episodes? Worse case scenario is that they're connected because Emma and Lily are sisters since Maleficent seduced Charming in revenge, but he doesn't know. Fab! Let's make it a trifecta of rape. Regina, her sister and her BFF can form a club and share tips. 1 Link to comment
Arnella April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 (edited) MAGICIAN: I get to be swirly and boomy. HA! Would the writers care to explain why Lily and Emma had intertwined fates even before the spell was cast...? No they would not. Just like we are just supposed to accept the fact that Zelena is Regina's sister and Cora's daughter even though she had never been mentioned before and no one can really say how or where her conception/birth fits in all those character's story lines. Lilly is just a means to further torture their characters so they don't have to go back and finish any other story line that can only be resolved by characters actually interacting. Heaven forbid there be real character development. Actually, it's probably for the best because trying to hook up Mal's and the Charmings back story has been completely awful so I can only imagine the torturous retcon twisting of backstories they'd have to do to make the Zelena family tree/timeline make any sense. Oh and EWWW all the rapey-ness. I felt sorry for Graham; couldn't care less about Robin but still EWWW. Edited April 29, 2015 by Arnella 4 Link to comment
YaddaYadda April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 Would the writers care to explain why Lily and Emma had intertwined fates even before the spell was cast...? I've wondered that myself and I wonder if it's just a cutesy line they decided to throw in there. I think that regardless of what went down, Lily and Emma were always going to end up the way they did. Emma was always going to be a hero, filled with light magic and Lily was always going to have that darkness inside of her. They would probably have met regardless of where they lived. But this whole thing has some serious Harry Potter vibes to it which makes me thing that the girls talking about HP wasn't a coincidence. Emma is Harry and Lily is Voldemort and I'm willing to bet Lily ends 6 feet under by the end of the season. Link to comment
darkestboy April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 The episode was probably the weakest we've had in the second half. Emma and Lily's flashbacks, meh to be honest. I think Lily is just a bad influence regardless of what actually happened to her. I did like the roadtrip elements with Emma and Regina in the episode and Rumple getting Will steal Belle's heart and give it back to her was the first decent thing he's done in a while. The Zelena pregnancy plot is not something anyone was clamouring. Enough kids on the show as it is, 6/10 Link to comment
HoodlumSheep April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 (edited) How did Lily have a necklace from her birth mother when she was in an egg when she was taken from Maleficent and the egg didn't hatch until a split second before she was sent into our world? Or was the necklace maybe something Ursula left with her when she and Cruella abandoned her? I can't imagine Cruella having even the tiniest scrap of conscience to do that, but Ursula might have. I'm also wondering how Lily (and Ursula and Cruella) avoided the curse reversal. When it happened, they made it sound like everyone born or even conceived in another world, other than Emma, whose DNA was woven into the curse, was going to be sent from our world back to their home worlds. That was how they made sure it was all extra-tragic, since Hook would be separated from Emma and Neal would be separated from Henry, even though neither of them were affected by the curse because they came over a different way. If Lily wasn't sent back because she wasn't in Storybrooke, then why couldn't Neal and Hook have left Storybrooke and stayed in this world? . New headcanon: Mal showed Ursula the necklace she was planning on giving her daughter, but Ursula accidentally never gave it back, get's sucked into the real world, so, understanding the importance of keepsakes, she leaves it with baby Lily. Cruella, being fabulously evil as always, whacks her from behind and drags her away before she can do the responsible thing and adopt Lily. I always thought that the curse only affected the Storybrooke area, and that it didn't envelop the entire world. So Ursula, Cruella and Lily wouldn't get sucked back to the EF. Edited April 29, 2015 by HoodlumSheep Link to comment
Dani-Ellie April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 How did Lily have a necklace from her birth mother when she was in an egg when she was taken from Maleficent and the egg didn't hatch until a split second before she was sent into our world? Or was the necklace maybe something Ursula left with her when she and Cruella abandoned her? I can't imagine Cruella having even the tiniest scrap of conscience to do that, but Ursula might have. I think the pendant itself is a talon or maybe a scale, since the Apprentice told her it wasn't a stone. The egg was textured so it could have been on the shell. Or maybe it's even a piece of the shell itself. 2 Link to comment
HoodlumSheep April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 That makes sense, but how did it end up on a chain? Did one of the people who found her think it looked cool so they turned it into a necklace and gave it to her? Link to comment
Dani-Ellie April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 (edited) Why not? It's half-moon shaped. People in this world string far odder things on chains to wear as jewelry. I can buy someone thinking it was a pendant and stringing it for her. Edited April 29, 2015 by Dani-Ellie Link to comment
Curio April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 (edited) I was thinking about the structure of this episode more, (I don't know why, I wish I could forget most of this episode ever happened), and from a character development standpoint, it seems strange to put Emma and Regina on yet another mission together. There isn't a whole lot of drama to mine from that relationship right now because Regina is being supportive of Emma, so there isn't much tension between the two of them. To me, occasional bickering does not equal tension. They've also already been paired off as a team in the Chernabog episode and in the episode where Pinocchio got kidnapped, so it felt a bit repetitive seeing them in yet another car chase scene on yet another mission that goes awry. When I think of the most entertaining road trip episodes on TV, I think of characters who have some kind of tension and animosity that must be overcome throughout their journey. Being stuck in a car for hours on end is the perfect writing tool to force characters to work their issues out. This is why I think the episode would have been a lot more fun and entertaining if Emma was forced to do the road trip with her parents instead of Regina. Regina could still go off to New York to rescue Robin, but it's odd that the writers forced Emma to go find Lily when that technically is her parents' issue they should have been actively working to solve. I know Emma doesn't want anything to do with them, but why not replace the (somewhat out of character) scene where Regina says she needs Emma's help with a scene where Snow and David ask Emma for her help to find Lily? It's Snow and David's issue, they should have been the ones going out and trying to rectify their mistake. Now I'm just imagining all of the character drama we could have gotten if Emma, Charming, and Snow were stuck traveling to Massachusetts in David's truck. We could have gotten some conversations between them that lasted longer than 30 seconds at a crack. There could have been some great awkward silences and humor to balance out the very dark tone of the episode. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Snow and Charming have never been to the real world, have they? Regina's already been outside of Storybrooke, so again, there wasn't a lot of interesting drama there. Forcing Charming and Snow outside Storybrooke's barrier would have been new territory for the show and they could have seen the state Emma lived in for part of her life. Edited April 29, 2015 by Curio 5 Link to comment
Mari April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 I think the pendant itself is a talon or maybe a scale, since the Apprentice told her it wasn't a stone. The egg was textured so it could have been on the shell. Or maybe it's even a piece of the shell itself. Thank you. This is the first explanation for the necklace she got from her mother that makes sense. Link to comment
KingOfHearts April 29, 2015 Share April 29, 2015 (edited) I was thinking about the structure of this episode more, (I don't know why, I wish I could forget most of this episode ever happened), and from a character development standpoint, it seems strange to put Emma and Regina on yet another mission together. There isn't a whole lot of drama to mine from that relationship right now because Regina is being supportive of Emma, so there isn't much tension between the two of them. The potential for the road trip was squandered, if you ask me. Since Regina has been attempting to moderate this feud between Emma and her parents, we could have gotten more insight to how Emma really felt about the situation deep inside. We saw anger, spite and even her pushing Regina away, but if the writers want them to be besties, then more should come out of their personal conversations than that. Everything those two did was for PLOT PLOT PLOT and their character moments together were few and far between. Not that Emma feels like talking right now, but they never even discussed how Regina felt about Zelena and Robin. We heard about Lily in the car somewhat, but nothing about the second mission. The New York quest was very downplayed and got very little dramatic tension. By the end of the episode it was more like a quick errand than a rescue. Edited April 29, 2015 by KingOfHearts 1 Link to comment
jhlipton April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 What they show with Lily seems to be more along the lines of "bad fortune" or "poor decision making" than "darkness." She makes bad choices, and everything she touches crumbles Yes, but "bad fortune would be going to a party and taking a hit of Ecstasy that's laced with meth or PCP or something like that. "Bad fortune" is trying to steal something, and someone gets killed. "Bad fortune" is leaving the stove on and burning down the house (wait 'til the party's over). "Poor decision making" gets her seriously hurt. This sounds like "sort of bad, but nothing she can't walk away from". Seriously, she needs to look at people whose lives are totally messed up, not through fate or bad decisions but truly bad fortune. Lily is bitter and blaming circumstances for the way her life turned out. If she cursed with bad luck or bad decision making, she's right to blame circumstances. 1 Link to comment
Camera One April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 (edited) Being stuck in a car for hours on end is the perfect writing tool to force characters to work their issues out. This is why I think the episode would have been a lot more fun and entertaining if Emma was forced to do the road trip with her parents instead of Regina. What an awesome idea. At least that would have meant *something* positive came out of the offensive Charming secret plot. But sorry, there can be no consecutive emotionally-driven scenes between Emma and her parents on this show that lasts a total of more than 3 minutes per episode. That's one of the cardinal rules of "Once Upon a Lost Potential". Edited April 30, 2015 by Camera One 5 Link to comment
KingOfHearts April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 The Zelena pregnancy seems to be universally hated. Was it intended to be disliked? I feel like it was a late comer to the Regina angst party. Evil Regals and Outlaw Queen shippers have been disappointed over and over for so long that I'm not sure what's keeping their hope alive. Same with the Rumpbellers... Rumple's actions in this episode seemed like such a nail in the coffin. Link to comment
KAOS Agent April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 We're nearing the end of the half season and our theme words seem to have lost a little bit of their shine with the writers this week. Perhaps because so much took place in the real world where we don't throw around words like heroes and villains all the time. Anyway, the heroes took the week again with three mentions although the villains actually managed to score a couple of mentions of their own after being shut out for the last two weeks. The heroes remain in the lead 32-25. Happy ending only got one mention this week. I'm hoping this picks up a bit (and I'm assuming it will) because we are just six uses away from 4B mentioning it more than Seasons 1-3 combined. 1 Link to comment
txhorns79 April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 As for Mal, all the while she was spouting off about Snowing hurting an innocent, I kept thinking of all the people she cursed and burnt in the Enchanted Forest. I just can't even with this show... I would look at it like this: Mal doesn't present herself as being good or heroic, while Snow and Charming do. I would also say the point in that scene was that it wasn't about Mal. It was about her daughter, who was an innocent. That Mal has done terrible things to other people doesn't give Snow and Charming cover for what they did to her child. Link to comment
Rumsy4 April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 I understand that it's about an innocent child, and I never said it excused Snow and Charming. But I dislike disingenuous storytelling, which is what this is IMO. Hypocrisy is not a worse sin than mass murder, and I dislike the show pushing that angle. Sure--Mal is a villain, and she is not going to forgive someone who wronged her child. But I don't see her rushing make restitution to the innocent she hurt in the past. 4 Link to comment
txhorns79 April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 But I dislike disingenuous storytelling, which is what this is IMO. Hypocrisy is not a worse sin than mass murder, and I dislike the show pushing that angle. Sure--Mal is a villain, and she is not going to forgive someone who wronged her child. But I don't see her rushing make restitution to the innocent she hurt in the past. I think it's just a matter of one thing having nothing to do with the other. Snow and Charming didn't take away Mal's kid because she was a bad person or a mass murderer. They did it for their own selfish reasons. Regardless of what Mal has done to other people, she has every right to call them both out for their actions. And if Mal was claiming to be a good person who would never hurt anyone else, people would have the right to call her out for that. Link to comment
Serena April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 (edited) I think the part that people have a problem with is not Snow and Charming being called out, or even Mal being the one to call them out. It's that Maleficient has never been called for HER bad deeds, which include killing an entire village (children included) for no good reason. It's especially a problem because the show does this again and again. I'm pretty sure we're gonna be hearing about how Snow totally MURDERED CORA OMG in season 12, while no one has mentioned that hey, Regina actually killed Snow's father since... um, since the episode in S1 when she did it, actually. Edited April 30, 2015 by Serena 3 Link to comment
Rumsy4 April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 (edited) And if Mal was claiming to be a good person who would never hurt anyone else, people would have the right to call her out for that. It's not just people who claim to be good that need to be called out for their wrongdoings. That was my point. I don't feel sympathetic towards Mal, because I percieve a narrative imbalance where the so called "heroes" are punished for stepping out of line once, whereas villains are allowed a lot of leeway on their crimes. Mal instantly forgave Regina for trapping her in dragon form for 28 years. Where is her righteous indignation against her? She has apparently dropped her vendetta against everyone except for Snowing. Snow does need to make amends. So does Mal. ETA: Thanks, Serena. That was my point. Edited April 30, 2015 by Rumsy4 3 Link to comment
YaddaYadda April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 I think the part that people have a problem with is not Snow and Charming being called out, or even Mal being the one to call them out. It's that Maleficient has never been called for HER bad deeds, which include killing an entire village (children included) for no good reason And you know why that is? Why no one EVER calls these people on their shit, be it Mal, Regina or Rumple? It's because everyone just expects them to be shitty people and murderers and rapists and whatever else we got on the show, so when they do something decent in the long list of horrible things they have done, they get a pat on the back and are praised to high heaven. This show = fucked up. 2 Link to comment
Rumsy4 April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 The villains in ONCE suffer from varying degrees of Severus Snape syndrome. I half expected Snowing to name baby do-over after Regina. lol Link to comment
Serena April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 Reginald was up there near #1 in the baby name lottery last season. Alternatively, "Daniel". But when Ginny Goodwin started going on about how special and moving it was, we all knew it was gonna be Neal. Link to comment
YaddaYadda April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 Reginald was up there near #1 in the baby name lottery last season. Alternatively, "Daniel". But when Ginny Goodwin started going on about how special and moving it was, we all knew it was gonna be Neal. Neal wasn't even on my list. He was neither special nor moving. I thought it would be Graham, then I was like well that will be awkward for Regina. I cursed at my tv when they said Prince Neal, then I almost gagged to death. It's better Emma feels awkward about that than Regina. 2 Link to comment
Zuleikha April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 Why no one EVER calls these people on their shit, be it Mal, Regina or Rumple? They're identified by both the show and themselves as villains. No one is framing their actions as good or okay. Mal's a less core character, so she hasn't gotten as much of it, but she's never been presented as anything other than a villain--one we may still feel sympathetic to about the specific circumstance of her loss, but not one we're expected to cheer on if she were to try for revenge against Snow, Charming, Emma, and Neal. Regina and Rumple have both been shown to have darkened hearts as a result of their many crimes. They have both had explicit conversations about having to figure out how to live with the knowledge of their crimes. They've both been in the antagonist role where the show expects us to root for the failure of their plans. They've been ostracized and exiled, and both have been called out for specific crimes by various characters. They also have, at various points over the seasons, changed their ways. The show wants us to root for Regina now because Regina has become one of the protagonists as the repentant villain trying to stay on the heroic path. In s3, when Rumple was portrayed as changed, the show also wanted us to root for him against first Pan and then Zelena. Now that he's returned to villainy, the show wants us to root for Emma and Regina against him. 2 Link to comment
jhlipton April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 Snow and Charming didn't take away Mal's kid because she was a bad person or a mass murderer. I believe that they said that the offspring was likely to be a dragon, which in OUaT are inherently evil, and also Mal's child, likely to be evil from nature and nurture. The kid wasn't a bad person or a mass murderer, but the odds were that she would grow up to be. That said, evil-ating a baby (even a baby dragon) is sooooooo dumb -- you just going to make that much worse. And if it wasn't evil, you've made it so. Link to comment
KingOfHearts April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 Snow and Charming didn't take away Mal's kid because she was a bad person or a mass murderer. They said it was a "monster" just like its mother. Link to comment
txhorns79 April 30, 2015 Share April 30, 2015 They said it was a "monster" just like its mother. I don't recall what they said, but they did what they did out of a desire to protect Emma, not because they had any strong feelings about Mal's baby's potential for evil. Link to comment
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